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Episode 6: TPF and Twipys!

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 19m·analyzed·Mar 25, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Hosts criticize manufacturers for avoiding festival announcements and JJP's Wizard of Oz re-release as poor marketing despite Stern's dominance.

Summary

Joshua Roop and Scott Larson discuss disappointment with Texas Pinball Festival's lack of major manufacturer announcements, criticizing Stern and Jersey Jack for bypassing major events for independent reveals. They analyze Jersey Jack's Yellow Brick Road Wizard of Oz edition as a poor market decision given JJP's slow release cadence (4 games vs Stern's 18 since 2013), and express skepticism about Barrels of Fun's Cosmic Carnival as an unlicensed indie title unlikely to compete with licensed blockbusters.

Key Claims

  • Stern's next game will be announced on Tuesday (day after recording), per industry rumor

    medium confidence · Joshua mentions 'the rumor right now is the next Stern game is announced on Tuesday' but acknowledges this is hearsay from recording on Sunday night

  • Steve Ritchie's Star Wars was originally supposed to be his final game before retirement

    medium confidence · Joshua cites conversation with 'an insider in the industry' that Ritchie walked in with resignation, but Stern partners convinced him to continue with original theme game

  • Since 2013, Jersey Jack has released 4 games (Wizard of Oz, Hobbit, Dialed In, Pirates) while Stern released 18+

    high confidence · Joshua and Scott count Stern releases from Metallica through Monsters and calculate production ratios explicitly

  • Licensed themes significantly outsell original/unlicensed themes in location/operator settings

    medium confidence · Scott reports conversation with distributor stating 'unlicensed themes don't sell' and cites Dialed In underperformance vs Star Wars in location arcades

  • Star Wars performs exceptionally well on location despite being criticized by pinball enthusiasts as inferior design

    high confidence · Scott describes operator friend saying Star Wars 'brings in money hand over fist' and performs in bars/bowling alleys vs Dialed In which 'never got played'

  • Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road edition is not a true limited release, just 'slapping limited edition on it'

    medium confidence · Joshua expresses skepticism at end: 'He's just essentially slapping limited edition on it like Stern' regarding JJP's approach

  • Major pinball festivals (Texas, Expo) have set expectations for manufacturer announcements that are now being undermined

    high confidence · Joshua and Scott explicitly discuss how manufacturers like Stern and Deep Root are bypassing these events for independent announcement schedules

  • Deep Root Brewing was not announcing at Texas Pinball Festival due to Robert Mueller's wedding

Notable Quotes

  • “if that's the case what is the point of holding off five days... what a drinking fest along with playing some pinball with people you see once a year”

    Joshua Roop @ early segment — Core criticism of manufacturer strategy undermining festival appeal

  • “If you're the alpha dog in the business, act like it”

    Scott Larson @ mid-segment — Direct critique of Stern's approach vs market dominance position

  • “Star Wars is bringing in money hand over fist compared to his other pinball machines... Dialed In on location... never got played it just didn't get nickels in it”

    Scott Larson @ operator discussion segment — Key contrast between theme-driven commercial success vs enthusiast preferences

  • “You're building a McLaren race car, but they only make 200 versus Ford, which is making thousands of cars versus your 200. You're just not going to work.”

    Joshua Roop @ Jersey Jack analysis — Metaphorical critique of JJP's production inefficiency vs Stern scale

  • “16 to 4 ratio... you cannot win at that ratio”

    Joshua Roop @ production comparison — Quantifies manufacturing disadvantage between Stern and JJP

  • “this didn't really deserve a reveal... it's almost a slap in the face... He's just essentially slapping limited edition on it”

    Joshua Roop @ closing Wizard of Oz critique — Dismissive assessment of JJP announcement strategy

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyBarrels of FuncompanySpooky PinballcompanyDeep Root BrewingcompanySteve RitchiepersonGary Sternperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack's production capacity (4 games in 6 years) fundamentally uncompetitive with Stern's output (18+ games same period), raising questions about business sustainability

    high · Joshua's detailed production ratio analysis: '16 to 4 ratio... you cannot win at that ratio' with McLaren vs Ford metaphor

  • ?

    event_signal: Major pinball festivals (Texas Pinball Festival, Expo) losing manufacturer support for announcement platforms, shifting to independent reveal strategies

    high · Manufacturers like Stern and Deep Root bypassing TPF announcements; hosts note Tuesday Stern announcement during festival weekend undermines event value

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Significant skepticism among analysts regarding indie unlicensed pinball titles' commercial viability despite enthusiast appreciation

    high · Distributor report that 'unlicensed themes don't sell' and Cosmic Carnival receiving lukewarm reception despite artistic merit

  • ?

    product_concern: Barrels of Fun's Cosmic Carnival criticized as lacking substantive gameplay differentiation and unlikely to achieve market penetration vs established competitors

    medium · Hosts describe playfield as 'kind of basic, maybe samey same. A game you saw in the early 90s' despite artistic merit

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Clear contrast between Steve Ritchie's 'flow' design (on-the-fly shooting without trapping) vs Pat Lawler's trap-focused methodical gameplay paradigm

    high · Scott's detailed explanation of Ritchie games allowing continuous play vs Lawler's structured trap requirements

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.237

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We really appreciate that you're here with us today. I am Joshua Roop, here with my co-captain, Mr. Scott Larson. Hey, how's it going today, Scott? that's good it's good i uh i felt disappointed uh that i didn't make it to texas uh pinball festival this year i planned on going there but it's i i just didn't end up pulling the trigger and so i i feel that i should have gone but uh um just didn't happen so i agree with you i'm kind of sad too i wish i would have went to texas pinball fest to texas pinball festival as well this year but honestly in my personal opinion we're going to get into this i'm kind of getting more and more upset with the pinball festivals and stuff like that i don't feel like really much happened besides the twippies which is awesome yeah i so i if i were going to to the festivals i would want a i would want something substantial and this is where i i think that it's the perfect place for like a reveal or or something you know a big mod or or some big announcements it feels as if a lot of these major companies are retracting from using these as their landmark announcement events and then doing their own thing sadly i think what happens is that kind of undermines the desire for some people to go to these you know to go to expo to go to texas I was interested in going to Texas when I heard it was going to be the five days of Deep Root. I thought that would be really interesting to see what they have. But if they're not going – if the pinball manufacturers themselves are going to bypass these major festivals so they can just use their own time to announce their games or develop things, then I think it really detracts from the event. I think so too and here's the other thing too the rumor right now is the next Stern game is announced on Tuesday we're recording on Sunday night and we'll probably put this out tomorrow on Monday but if that's the case what is the point of holding off five days I mean you've already got Deep Root who says they weren't going to be there which Robert Mueller had a great explanation he got married which congratulations to you Robert that's awesome I think that's very cool that you put family before the pinball hobby, which is very commendable in my opinion. But really, coming down to it, the only other announcement we had was Jersey Jack. And there was a lot of expectation on that one, which we'll get into later. But I just feel like more and more of these pinball events are becoming backburner events. And they're setting their own timelines on when they should release. And I get that you want to be the bride of the ball, or whatever you want to call it, the bell of the ball but it just doesn't make any sense you've got a bunch of people there that they're supporting the hobby itself and that are excited to be there with you and now it's just kind of turning into what a drinking fest along with playing some pinball with people you see once a year yeah i i don't i and i know that not now there are tons of pinball events by the way i so i know it sounds like we may be picking on texas and we may be picking on expo to some extent because really those are the two that historically have had more major announcements or major developments and the other ones have tended to be either a show so people can go and sell their their mods or sell their customizations or their pins you know alan there's allentown there's uh you know there's rocky mountain which is our local one they also have the uh the California Gaming Expo. So all these other ones haven't really been around reveals. And so perhaps that I may be a little unfair with leveraging that into Texas and maybe Expo. But they also have kind of set themselves up for that. And so they have set expectations that something's going to happen at this event. it's not just an event with some talks and a tournament. This is the cutting edge of pinball. And so if they're not going to embrace that, then perhaps they need to, I guess, lower expectations or lower anticipation because that really is what ultimately drove me from not coming this year is because I felt that there wasn't going to be any stories. any new events yeah and it like i said i don't know looking at marvel marvel's a great example of this in dc the biggest main event for comic books is san diego comic-con and that's where marvel does their reveals that's where they if you're a die-hard comic book fan you go there you get a glimpse of the new movies you get a glimpse of the new comic books you get a glimpse of it's like a thank you to those that have supported them and they know where they're going to be every year. I just I don't fully understand this concept of why the companies are starting to back off from the pinball events. Yeah, and I'm only thinking from a marketing standpoint that they want to control the message. They want to they want to steer it. And there's release timelines and everything. I totally understand that. I think that you should still, as a company, you should embrace your diehard fans. You should be able to say, yes, we as Stern, as the major company in the market, we don't have anything at these major things. That really should be kind of sad. That if you're the alpha dog in the business, act like it. Yep. I literally say, I don't care what they're doing. I'm going to own this. I'm going to release this. I'm going to tell what we're doing, and I dare them to follow me. But it seems like they're playing a cat and mouse thing. So I don't get it. If you're the alpha dog, act like the alpha dog. I agree. Well, let's talk about some other stuff. Steve Ritchie was there at TPF. He had very tight lips on what was going on with his game. but like I said, if rumors are true, we'll see his new game on Tuesday. It is an original theme, and I was talking to an insider in the industry about this theme. He wasn't giving me very many hints on the theme, but he did give me this tidbit, which I found very interesting. Star Wars was originally supposed to be Steve Ritchie's last game. He was supposed to be calling it quits. I guess he walked in and said, here's my resignation.

high confidence · Joshua acknowledges Robert Mueller's marriage as reason for absence, praising family prioritization

Pat Lawler
person
Joshua Roopperson
Scott Larsonperson
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Wizard of Ozgame
Star Warsgame
Dialed Ingame
Cosmic Carnivalgame
Total Nuclear Annihilationgame
Robert Muellerperson
Dirty Donnieperson
  • $

    market_signal: Licensed themes demonstrating superior location operator performance and revenue generation compared to enthusiast-favored unlicensed/design-focused titles

    high · Star Wars 'brings in money hand over fist' vs Dialed In 'never got played... just didn't get nickels in it' despite latter's GOTY credentials

  • ?

    community_signal: Steve Ritchie negotiated original theme game as condition to remain at Stern after Star Wars; indicates continued relevance of legendary designer but also power dynamics in negotiations

    medium · Joshua's insider account: 'Steve Ritchie said, the only way you can keep me on is if I got to do an original theme' and Stern partner agreement without going through Gary Stern

  • ?

    announcement: Jersey Jack reveals Yellow Brick Road Wizard of Oz edition as secondary release of existing property rather than new game

    high · TPF announcement; hosts question whether this qualifies as meaningful reveal or cash-grab reissue

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Industry rumor that Stern game announcement imminent (Tuesday) suggests managed reveal strategy independent of festival calendar

    medium · Joshua cites unnamed insider: 'rumor right now is the next Stern game is announced on Tuesday' during TPF weekend

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Growing community frustration with $13k+ pinball pricing eliminating impulse purchases and forcing collectors to be highly selective

    high · Joshua: 'pinball prices are so expensive that if something doesn't blow me out of the water i just tend to ignore it' and analysis of Cosmic Carnival dismissal due to price barriers

    • 7:08
    I mean, the dude's made 42 games over 42 years. The dude's a living legend in the pinball industry. And Stern wasn't going to let that go. I mean, it's starting to get hot again. You know, Steve Ritchie designs are probably the most sold and played designs out there between Star Wars and Star Trek and a handful of others from Stern right now. So they said, what can we do to keep you on? And Steve Ritchie said, the only way you can keep me on is if I got to do an original theme. And so they didn't even go to Gary Stern about this is what I was told because Gary is very adamant on we do themes. That's all that we do. That's what sells pinball right now. We are geared towards an operator market. We need to sell to them. And so Gary's partner said, you know what, Steve, if that's what it's going to take to keep you here, you can do your original theme. So either A, this is going to be his last title or B, he has one more after this because he got to make his own. and then he'll have to make one more for Stern. That's a license, just as a compromise. What do you think about that? Steve Ritchie games, they certainly have a feel. You know, every signature designer, and it's the same as any artist, they kind of have a style that you've grown accustomed to.
    8:24
    With Steve Ritchie, it's flow. And that's what they always describe it as. And when you think about it, what does flow mean? Well, I think flow means that you don't have to trap up to play the game. You can still just keep hitting on the fly, and you can still put up a monster score versus like a Pat Lawler game. You kind of have to trap up. Pat Lawler is a little more – I don't want to say quirky, but a little more – it's focused on, okay, do this thing, do this thing. and it's well thought out, kind of like a technician.
    9:04
    But Steve Ritchie is, I want it to go on the fly. Now, you can still trap up and you can shoot his games. And so it's not like they are limited to that. But his is the one game that will allow you just to fly if you want to. I think also – oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, no, I just think it's great. If you can keep him going, that's fine. At some point, you are – eventually the well will run dry and he – as we all get older, you just can't do it anymore or he doesn't want to do it anymore. um if he does an original theme i i'm kind of with gary on this like i i love the idea of original themes but you need to look at outside of the diehard fans so when you when you see you know um jersey jack going with with uh um dialed in yes it's a pat lawler game but how many people outside of the pinball community even know who Pat Lawler is. And they'll look at that game and they have no idea like, okay, so this is interesting because they really haven't been doing this for 20 years.
    10:22
    You know, doing it since the Bally Williams day, they haven't been doing original themes. And so I think people with their instant gratification, five seconds attention span, if you don't have that thing that draws you in, you're not going to get the casual guy to go up. Now, you may get someone who is, hey, what's this? I'm curious. I'm going to try that. And yes, Dialed In is a fantastic game. But I also understand Gary's point. Gary's point is, hey, let's tether on to a known brand that's already paid a lot of money for marketing this. and even when you divide it up a license costs you know 300 bucks a game or so yeah so it can't be like i i understand why gary says it and i i actually side with gary on this well and here's some other stuff too that i've learned over the last week is i was talking with a distributor and he said just unlicensed themes don't sell they don't like touching them they're not huge fans of them i mean look at total nuclear annihilation fantastic game of the year no sorry dialed in was game of the year i apologize but between dialed in and total nuclear annihilation of 2018 those went home with all the twippies it felt like and it was a great success for spooky but that's 550 games that's nothing for stern and you look at dialed in you know wizard of oz is our top seller right now followed closely by hobbit and then dialed ins at the bottom and i was talking to the distributor he says he still hasn't sold out of all his le's for dialed in it doesn't perform well on location because he's got two out on location they're not mechanically reliable so they're not good towards operators you look on the flip side of star wars star wars isn't considered a brilliant game by pinball standards to us right now maybe 10 years ago but a lot of people complain that it's a it's a flow richie game with stop and start rules and so there's a lot of um disconnect in the gameplay but i was talking to an operator friend of mine and he said he would buy new star he would buy new star war games any day because they perform on location ridiculously well yeah he says star wars is bringing in money hand over fist compared to his other pinball machines he had a dialed in on location my operator friend he doesn't anymore because there's no reason to have it out there he said it never got played it just didn't get nickels in it i mean because he runs a nickel arcade but you've got star wars where he's gotten nickel arcades he's putting out in bars he's putting in bowling alleys because it performs very very well and so it's funny because you've got the pinball community saying, hey, we want Pat Lawler. Hey, we want these designs that we know that we love that aren't necessarily tied to a theme. But then you've got these themes that are paying for everything else. So I, sadly right now, I agree with Gary Stern as well. You've got to have a theme that ties well with your pinball machine.
    13:38
    I don't think that's necessarily bad though, because I've said it before, I bought my first pinball machine based on dumb luck and theme i saw the simpsons and i said let's get it i i would have no idea if it were a total nuclear annihilation like i would have no idea like oh that's a cool 80s retro thing i broke in the 80s sure why not but uh i don't know if that would really draw me in and i think that in some ways pinball uh pinball enthusiasts this is this is where I'm going to get into and I think you'll see kind of my bias when it comes into the twippies coming up this is where I have a hard time with like the Oscars when it comes to Oscar times like they have all these major movies out there that make hundreds of millions of dollars and they give the best picture to something that makes 20 million yeah and okay sure for maybe the movie enthusiasts who say, oh, well, you didn't really catch X, Y, or Z. Okay, fine. But the public has spoken. The public has spoken and said, this isn't the best movie because it only made $20 million. If it were the best movie, it would have at least made $100 million.
    14:57
    And so when you're talking about like, yes, it's great to have these small things. Now, that being said, what you can say is that putting into like an arcade, you need to build a mix it's just like building an album back in the day where yes you'd have the two or three big hits that they would put out of singles but then a lot of times you come for the singles but you stay for the other stuff that you end up liking more but it doesn't end up being that radio catch song yeah and so if you have a bar or an arcade or whatever that has a star wars with a dialed in with the total nuclear annihilation with you know pirates of the caribbean yes they'll come in and they'll say hey i'm gonna try the star wars and then they may look at that and say huh what's that maybe i'll try that but it's like if you buy an album that doesn't have a single on it you're not going to sell the album yeah yep it's true i don't know i just i've been thinking more and more about theme and gameplay and i guess it draws me back to the 90s because that in my opinion that's kind of where pinball was starting to get figured out uh because we were we were going from short play times to to longer game plays and and more theme integration as well and had a story you had a story yeah you had a story and the two the two companies that were big back then were uh stern and were bally williams and stern was just getting in or data East slash Sega slash Stern, whatever you want to call it. And even back then, they're not considered the masterpieces, the Data Easts, but they're great games and they're all theme based. And you look at the Bally Williams, all the ones that we covet and say they're the best. So what if it's the Shadow? The gameplay is amazing. So what if it's Gynemonic? The gameplay is amazing.
    16:54
    But the thing is, is the greatest selling pinball machine was Adam's Family from Bally Williams. And they favored innovation over theme, which we love, but it ultimately makes me wonder if they would have been more theme-focused. Would it have been more successful? Absolutely. Yeah, and it's kind of like the Bally Williams. They won the battle but lost the war when you look at it. And yes, and I totally know that really Williams was still profitable when they pulled the plug on the pinball division because they want to focus on slot machines. And so, yes, so people always argue, well, it was still profitable. They just had to go for more profit somewhere else. OK, I get it. But really when Data East started saying, hey, let's go after big licenses and see if that can hook people, then they had something. And really they kind of got away with it for a while there. They got away from it in that basically the 2006 to 2010 era when they had a few that had a big license. But a lot of them were kind of B-grade licenses in my opinion. I would say the A licenses in the 2000s would be like The Simpsons and Lord of the Rings and Spider-Man. And name anything else that has like a marquee license. You're going to put Big Buck Hunter. You're going to put Wheel of Fortune. I know Austin Powers was pretty big. Jeez. Yeah. Okay. Maybe. You could maybe say that was a big license. But really, you've got – oh, I forgot Pirates of the Caribbean. They're Pirates of the Caribbean. So you've got four out of whatever they've done. And so those are the ones that still have good resale value.
    18:58
    People are still buying those. Well, like Jeff – like our buddy Jeff from the Pinball Podcast said, look at Sopranos versus Lord of the Rings. The layouts are so scary similar. Yeah. That if you were to just take the themes off, it'd probably be pretty much the same game. The thing that defines them is the gameplay and the theme. Yeah. And that's what makes Lord of the Rings so coveted amongst all the fans and everything. Yeah. And really, I would love Lord of the Rings too. And I'm not sure that I would want Lord of the Rings if it had the same rule set, the same gameplay, and Pokemon Island Adventure. I just don't think so. So let's move on to Texas Pinball Festival. we had a new game revealed we had the company reveal a game and yeah let go from there what did you think let start with the new reveal How about that What did you think of Cosmic Carnival Yeah. You know what? I will say when you sent me this and I thought, oh, this sounds interesting, I thought it was like Cosmic Chaos, like the Mark Ritchie game that they teased last year. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I thought, oh, that's really cool. That's a lot of planning to say, hey, we did this. I thought this would have been a great like small company release kind of – we teased it last year as a theme and then people had some positive vibes on it. And so, yeah, we just go ahead and made this pinball. And it would have been kind of cool to be kind of a retro like a meteor or something like that. I, so I, I was in my mindset, I was dialed in for that one. And then I was like, oh, well, okay. This is like scary clown show. Yeah. It kind of does look like killer clowns from outer space. Yeah, it kind of does. And so like, I, I think it's, I think it's great. Um, it's, I, I hope that, I hope that it finds a market. I think it's kind of hard for these small companies to try to find a niche with something that is completely unlicensed. It's just kind of a niche thing. And who knows? Maybe that works. I mean, Spooky did it with America's Most Haunted. However, if you know the documentary on it, they really hit a few things and they're lucky to be a business now. I hope that these small boutique companies are able to find a niche. It looks interesting. I didn't shoot it. I thought it looked pretty in the right environment. I think it could do something. But you also look at what did Spooky do. The next thing they came out with was a licensed theme. Okay, it was Rob Zombie, and it was still kind of a niche thing. But people who knew it said, hey, I want to buy it because it's a Rob Zombie game. Yeah. And and then they went off with Total Nuclear Annihilation, which was, I would say, a success for the pinball crowd and for their their market. But I'm hoping that they'll be able to do something with this kind of small market release when they haven't been able to build that kind of buzz. And really, there is already a spooky pinball out there. So if you want kind of a niche, quirky game, they they have that option. You know, after looking at the whole game, I haven't really looked much at the gameplay or how it plays. I mean, obviously we weren't there, so I didn't have my hands on it to tell you how the gameplay is. But looking at the play field, I felt it was kind of basic, maybe samey same.
    22:37
    A game you saw in the early 90s. The artwork is beautiful. Dirty Donnie did great. yeah it's but it but it almost looks aerosmith with the colors and yeah i don't know how to describe it i just i don't know i'm not excited for this one i mean it's a it is original theme but it does nothing for me i'm not huge on clowns i saw that there was modes but without playing it i don't know what they're gonna be and then they might shoot like butter man it might be the perfect little shooter but i just nothing we're getting to the point of the game where pinball prices are so expensive that if something doesn't blow me out of the water i just tend to ignore it and that's kind of where i'm at with cosmic cart or not cosmic cart cosmic carnival yeah and i'm just i'm not super impressed with it i mean it's a great looking game but i just like i said i need to get my hands on it did they announce a price no they did not okay not that i like her and what would you look it up what would you buy it for i i wouldn't buy it though that's a thing i just yeah so there's so many other there's so much other good pinball machines out there why would i buy that one unless you're going to be competing with a stern pro and you're basically getting the crowd who i i would say the the counterculture crowd the i don't want the popular game i want the niche game but i still have you know 5300 or whatever they're costing nowadays. I still have that burning a hole in my pocket. But unless it's a game like a Total Nuclear Annihilation or maybe even an Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, are you really going to put your hard-earned money down? Not if it's your first pin or second, maybe if it's your 10th and you're looking at diversity in a collection, but you really have to go pretty far down that road to break into the market. So I'm hoping they find something. I'm just – I'm not optimistic.
    24:42
    I'm not either. Well, and like I said, there's just so much good pinball machines out there. And I'm not saying Cosmic Carvel is not good pinball. I'm just saying there's so much to detract from it that I just – I don't see it as something that will tickle my fancy, so to speak. Yeah. So I hope I'm surprised. I really do.
    25:01
    But I just don't know. Here's the other thing though too. price does but doesn't play a point into it I mean look at Thunderbirds that's the cheapest game out in the market but everyone I mean if it had fantastic rules maybe people would be talking about it I just don't know or if it shot well at least with that one and there were some issues with it not even being comparable to standard ones so yeah I don't know I wish every new company well and I hope you sell a billion of them. I'm just looking at it from the marketing hat and thinking it's unlikely. Yeah, I agree. Well, speaking of marketing and whatnot, let's move on to Jersey Jack's big reveal. So this one's been predicted quite a while ago. I can't remember who broke the news on it, but Jersey Jack decided to reveal the Yellow Brick Road edition of Wizard of Oz. There were some broken hearts because they were We were expecting Willy Wonka or Toy Story, but it was the yellow brick road edition.
    26:05
    Let's not talk about price just yet. Let's talk about what did you think of it because you sent me the pictures as soon as they revealed it. You know what? It makes me feel like Jersey Jack has a backfire in their engine. And you know how there's a car that's just not quite running smoothly and you're trying to hit the gas and it just backfires and kind of stalls out or you have to do something like that.
    26:35
    They have beautiful games. Yes. Okay. So let's just put this in perspective. So what year was Wizard of Oz announced?
    26:48
    2011, but don't hold me to it. I want to see what was on that. So when was it actually delivered? I want to say 2012, 2013. I think it was later than that.
    26:59
    Let's see. I am going to look this up because this is going to make my point. So while you're looking that up, here's the other thing, though, too. This is what keeps getting my brain going. So Jersey Jack announces back in 2011 that they're making Wizard of Oz. It's 2019. It's been eight years now. And you can correct me on that if I'm wrong. but in that time span they've made four games count them four okay so you are getting exactly like this is the point that i'm trying to make is that let's just say okay says the release date is 2013 so just on the on the wikipedia page okay all right so let's just say 2013 okay now let's just set back a minute okay so since 2013 they've released wizard of oz they've released the hobbit they've released dialed in and they've released jersey jack or sorry pirates of the right correct yes okay well hold your breath let me tell you what stern's done metallica they've done star trek they've done mustang they've done walking dead they've done wrestlemania they've done kiss they've done game of thrones they've done woe nelly they've done spider-man vault edition they've done ghostbusters they've been batman 66 aerosmith star wars guardians of the galaxy iron maiden deadpool the beatles the monsters sweet dang so i don't know so so i that is this is this is my argument going back to like stern is the alpha dog in the argument yeah and you can totally i i will totally get behind that yes stern was on this slow death spiral until Jersey Jack entered the market and said, hey, you're not doing it very well. We're going to do it better. And then Stern said, huh, okay, that's how it is. Let me show you what we can do. And they just dropped a crazy amount of games. So let's just count those up. And this isn't even talking about the premium versus the LE or the pro. So really – and that's even harder to do than what Jersey Jack is doing because they are making two different games. so let's just say so uh metallica one star trek two mustang three walking dead four wrestlemania five uh kiss six uh game of thrones seven will nelly eight spider-man vault edition nine you can may or may not take that ghostbusters 10 batman 66 11 aerosmith 12 star wars 13 guardians of the galaxy 14 iron maiden 15 deadpool 16 beatles 17 monsters 18 so even if you threw two of those out that is a 16 to 4 ratio on on releasing so this is this is where i'm looking at this and saying that man i i want to pull in by the way i've got a wizard of oz downstairs okay and so i am i am a fan i love what they do i i want to get a dialed in at some point um so i'm a fan but you cannot win at that ratio a 16 to 4 ratio and even if you develop a a special edition wizard of oz and says yes we're going to make it cooler who are they catering to like this is my art this is where i have to ask from a marketing standpoint who are they catering to because is there really a market for this? And maybe there is. I really hope there is. But like, if you think about it, how much are they making on pinball machines? Two, maybe $3,000. Let's just assume that. Okay. If you're doing two or $3,000 and maybe this is going to be another two or $3,000 for me, I don't know, three, four, maybe for yellow brick road for getting like special bling and whatnot maybe three so you know three thousand dollars times 200 okay let's just assume that stern makes a grand on each one of them okay okay let's just assume stern makes a grand like how much do you think they're going to make over the next year with four releases and being able to pump out a few thousand versus their 200 like it's it's just like something just is not connecting. And so I don't know what to say. Like, I would love to see from their development standpoint, but I want to say, man, I love what you're doing, but you're so ambitious with what you're trying to do. Like, you're building a McLaren race car, but they only make 200 versus Ford, which is Ford is making, you know, thousands of cars versus your 200. You're just not going to work. Hey, just a second. Hey, what's up, sweetheart? What's up? What are you talking about? What am I talking about? I know. I'm talking about pinball. It's crazy, huh? What are you talking to? Yeah, I'm talking to Josh.
    32:14
    Yeah. Okay. Good night, honey. Okay? Why do you have headphones? Why do I have headphones on? Because that's how I hear. Out. Okay, guys. Hey, I love you. Okay? Which Josh? Okay, go to bed. No one you know. Let's go. Which Josh? Josh. Josh Rube. He's come out. Carter's his son. okay let's go all right have fun guys five four anyway so so you see what i'm saying about jjp is like i love what they're doing but you at some point you have to question what they're doing well no one asked for this no one said that i would love wizard oz and yellow i honestly i think ruby red is probably the perfect color for wizard of oz i enjoyed the emerald green it makes sense because there was the emerald city why are we going yellow brick road i get that it's the yellow brick road but why why are we going yellow it just and you're taking out the money the monkey mechanic but it's still on the screen quote unquote i just i this is a game that i've been personally looking for for my wife she wants a wizard of oz but the problem is is there you sink so much money into it that first off that's a lot of money set in my garage and if i end up not liking it and my wife wants to keep it i'm out that amount of money she said her two her two themes she wants right now is a whirlwind or a wizard of oz which one am i gonna buy yeah you know i'm saying i i would rather have a wizard or a whirlwind sitting not getting played in my garage versus a wizard of oz at at seven eight grand plus and the resale value on these things are hard people don't want to buy wizard of oz because you can still buy them new or you're buying one that you don't know if it's going to have mechanical issues or with or not and so i just don't understand the concept of why we keep going back to we need to build more wizard of oz's i get it's an evergreen title but this didn't really deserve a reveal in my opinion it's something it's almost i don't know it's almost a slap in the face and the reason being is is You've got people out there that have these quote-unquote limited editions, and they're not limited at all. He's just essentially slapping limited edition on it like Stern does premium. Just call it a premium. That's what it is because the upgrade from that is the collector's edition. So why are we calling them limited when, in fact, they're not going to be limited? Yeah. Yeah, I don't like the limited logo just because I – OK. Obviously, you need to look at it from what they're doing. And really, there are people who will buy it based on it's limited. OK? So that is a fact because I guarantee they would not have sold 500 Rob Zombies or 450 or whatever they did if it were just like, hey, we're making these. You want to buy it? And so there are people who feel like they want that limited plaque and it makes it mean something to them. It doesn't mean anything to me, but that is my perspective. And I do have a ruby red limited edition, but I bought the ruby red because I like that edition. You could even just call it the ruby red edition or the Emerald City edition. but to put limited edition i think really i know you're kind of going against stern and saying that yes this is our top of the line and this is our top of the line versions we have different versions of them but i i just don't understand why why they're doing it or what the price increase is with the price increase is more puzzling to me than anything yeah really quick they increased it to 11.5 yeah why are we going to 11.5 this game was originally 6.5 when i originally okay well now i will say it wasn't 6.5 that that's what people paid for it and they were trying to break into a market and so they were losing money on the title okay so yes it was never 6.5 but this is um so what this is is hey we have options that we are increasing to put in And so when I bought it, I could have bought the rad decals, which I didn't because I didn't want to pay over $10,000 for a machine.
    36:40
    But I look at it now and it's like, well, maybe I should have slapped those on. But it has like every single bell and whistle option.
    36:50
    But they just need to look at what they're doing. And they need to figure out to have – they need to figure out how to have an entry-level line and a premium line. Because this only selling premiums, I just don't see that as being a great way of doing it. Well, they had standard edition dialed in. Okay, but the standard edition is still the same as a premium.
    37:17
    And so although it's standard, yeah, it's great. But you need to find something that's a workhorse. And right now, they have yet to find a workhorse. And I love what they did with Pirates of the Caribbean.
    37:35
    But in some ways I thought, man, they put a lot of crazy stuff into that for one release. Like maybe they should have dialed that back a little bit as opposed to trying to shoot for the moon every time. Sometimes you have to hit base hits. Yeah. So I don't know. I root for Jersey Jack. I love what they do, but it's just I don't understand their business model. I think that it needs to be modified.
    38:06
    I think this is why there's so much excitement for Deep Root as well. I think someone's craving to see innovation but competition with Stern. Really, the biggest competition right now would be Chicago Gaming, and they're just doing remakes. That's all they're doing right now. and the nice part about Chicago Gaming is they are fed by another industry as well with other games, but really there's not much innovation outside of Stern at this point when it comes to pinball. Spooky's doing good, but it's one game every 18 months to two years. Same with Jersey Jack. We've got four games in almost, what did we say, eight years, seven years?
    38:48
    You're never going to compete. and americans trying to catch up i mean they've got octoberfest and they've got houdini so and so i think the window is like narrowing they need to figure out like and the sad thing is there's like the the batman 66 type backlash with uh kamikaze right and that's kind of like a jersey jack thing however i would say the jersey jack price without all the jersey jack bells and whistles.
    39:16
    Correct. But I think that with – so Stern did have some backlash against, oh, well, if they only made a pro in a Batman 60s, I'm like, fine, just don't buy it. Like you don have to they have four games a year You can so what You don buy that game But I just wish that Jersey Jack could figure out their guiding star or whatever their game plan is because I just don see it lasting
    39:48
    They're still not making money. So at some point, your investors are going to say, I think we're done. And I would hate for that to happen.
    40:02
    Yeah, I don't blame you. I just – I don't know how to think of Jersey Jack anymore. I really don't. I'm puzzled with the – because it seems like they don't have a great path forward if they release the Black Arrow edition of the – so on Hobbit, they had the limited edition. Then they had the smog edition. Then they had the black arrow edition and they probably sold like three of those black arrow editions because they said, Oh, there's one more mode. And everyone said, great. I'll add that to the 400 other modes. Yeah. Is one more mode really that, that critical? I would argue not.
    40:46
    Yeah. Well, let's move on. We've got some other stuff to cover. Um, one quick thing I wanted to bring up though, before we move on to the Twippies is we talked about Steve Ritchie, this possibly being his last game. This is my hope. If it is his last game, I hope Stern waves that flag as high as they can. And either it's Texas pinball festival next year or pinball expo this, this fall, they have pretty much like a dedication to Steve Ritchie. I think that would be awesome for that. That'd be cool. They kind of do it in soccer. Like if it's a, if it's a retirement year for soccer, then they kind of honor that player for the rest of the year because it's his final year. Do it for Steve Ritchie, man. He's been, he's been in the market 42 years. He needs, he needs a farewell send off. That's epic. Well, I, I'm glad he's going out on a high note though. I mean, he really is. He, he's had this amazing, like this pinball Renaissance has really revitalized some of these guys who really, I think we're kind of depressed at the end of their career. I mean, Pat Lawler was basically just on the salvage yard because he wasn't really doing anything after having all these legendary games. So if nothing else, I'm really glad that they've had this excellent way of wrapping up their career whenever that is. So let's move on to the Twippies. I know that you didn't watch this. I watched bits and pieces here, but I was able to get all the people that won. So let's go over this. You ready for it? Bring it on. Okay, I'm going to do this in the order that they were actually announced and won. So starting off, first before we get into this, Greg and Zach, awesome job. You guys did great. My pros to this show really quick, it was very professional. I loved the cut scenes. It was almost like an Oscars.
    42:40
    The things that I would prefer that you guys work on for next year, I know this isn't Zach and Greg, or maybe it is them that's doing this. The lighting was really harsh. Uh, you're getting some crazy shadows up there and it was, I felt too zoomed up. Um, Oh, and the one last thing was, is the podium. It had to be like higher. Everyone kept having to lean down to put their mouth, my mouth on the microphone. And you guys probably saw that. You probably saw that that's what was happening, but that was just from my perspective from a seat at home. That's what I was seeing. Okay. So first one, best music and sound effects. If you guys want to follow along at home, I'll link the website in the show notes so you can follow along with the people for the categories. But we're going to go for it right here. So, Scott, what machine do you think or you think should have won best music and sound effects? So I was talking to Josh about this earlier. So I'm going to take it a little different, and I'm going to say which one I think won. but also I'm going to say which one probably should have won. Okay. And when I look at this, here's what I think one, I think Pirates of the Caribbean one. And because it's, it's epic. I mean, really Pirates of the Caribbean should have been called Lord of the Rings plus the Hobbit together on everything they did for that. And so we're talking like an encyclopedic depth of sound, of everything that they were able to incorporate five different things.
    44:18
    However, I don't want to – the challenge of that is saying that do you have to be epic to win? Because I'm not sure that that's really what's going to do because I would lean toward thinking, well, Iron Maiden certainly has a solid package. Okay. Now, that being said, I will say that I I would likely say that the sound would go to Pirates of the Caribbean. So the actual person that won was Iron Maiden for best music and sound. And I did think like now I will say I'm one of the outliers. I love the theme Iron Maiden. As I said before, it was my first concert when I was in 1988, when I was like 13, I snuck out and went to Iron Maiden. so I am not one of those guys that says I want this rethemed.
    45:09
    I love it, and I know they've got the great call-outs there. I think that it's certainly, if I were to rank them, I'd probably rank Pirates 1, Iron Maiden 2, and so I think that's a solid choice. I agree. I really do. Okay, best homebrew. This is one that I kind of follow. I don't know if you follow it. I don't. So go ahead and tell me what happened there in your analysis because I don't know much about homebrews. So there's a couple homebrews out there that are – they had Airplane. They had Kill Bill. But the one that actually ended up taking it was Nightmare Before Christmas. And Mark in City, man, he is fantastic looking at this machine. It is just – my only complaint to the machine is a little dark. Yeah. But other than that, for a gentleman that's went through – and it's his baby, man. This thing is amazing. They just streamed it this week, and it's just so cool. The shot that I love is where it goes into a kickback on the left side.
    46:09
    So you have a kickback, and then you have your out lane, and then you have your in lane. And if you're paying attention to what goes into that kickback, you hold up the right flipper.
    46:21
    Sorry, there's four flippers on the game. and the right side has a right side flipper like you'd have on Jurassic Park, whatever it may be. If you're paying attention, that kickback will actually shoot it under the flipper if you're holding it up into what's called the soup, and then you get extra points for that. And so there's just some really cool little innovations that are on it, and it's just, I don't know, it's a really cool game for a gentleman that's done it all himself. So I was very happy to see that he had won it because it's very well-deserved. I do enjoy the Kill Bill one. It's pretty cool. and same with the other ones that are out there but i was pretty impressed with this yeah hey anybody who's will anybody who's willing to make a machine at home i'm god bless them is all i can say because i can barely change a light bulb so if they're able to do something on their own and build an entire pinball machine then i say they they get all the accolades in the world yep so moving on to the next one best call outs best call outs um now i i will say that there are two ways of looking at this and really when you look at all the all the options there really comes down to the two big options there's pirates of the caribbean and there's iron maiden and and you can look at all the other ones but really all the other ones are kind of smaller releases. You could even, I almost say Deadpool's smaller release, but really those are the ones that are going to take home the majority of the attention.
    47:50
    I like the attitude of Pirates of the Caribbean, having the same guy do all the call-outs, but I think it'll have to go to Iron Maiden just because of the way that they integrated all that sound package. They got the two perfect voice actors and it really integrates really well, so I'd be surprised if it's anybody else. best call outs actually went to Deadpool. Really? Wow. Yes, it did. And actually the gentleman that plays the voice of Deadpool, he's played it in every, yes, he has the last 15 years when it comes to animation, everything. It made sense to me that Deadpool one, I do like the call outs. It's very spot on. But Deadpool is in my mind, that is what Deadpool is. I know everyone said it should have been the movie with Ryan Reynolds, blah, blah. But I really enjoy where they went with, with Deadpool on this one. So, yeah, but no, That's what won Best Call Out. Yeah, and Deadpool, I feel that the animation is actually the right way to go. It's the same thing with X-Men. I have an X-Men. I love it because of the way the art package is with the comic book style. Spider-Man, and I know that's what people were calling out for the Vault Edition because they didn't like the movie because the movie eventually seems dated. So I'll give it to Deadpool. Where I play Deadpool, I can't hear the call-outs very well because it's in a bar where they have everything turned way down. All righty, next one. And honestly, I don't know if we should spend much time on this one. It's pretty straightforward. The best tournament. You know what?
    49:28
    There's Pinnberg and everybody else. Yep, exactly. I don't see how that's even a category. Yeah, it's Pinnberg. It's Pinberg until proven otherwise. All right, moving on. We got best toys and gimmicks. I don't know if I have a strong feeling on the best toy. I think the Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle is really cool.
    49:52
    Yeah. I also – I like the Cosmic Cart Racing just because – and that's more of a ramp thing, but it's just – it's a different vibe. I don't know if I have a strong feeling on this. So what one was Pirates of the Caribbean with the rocking ship? Yeah. I guess I wouldn't see – I don't know. Everybody's interpretation is different because I wouldn't really consider anything that Pirates does as a gimmick. I would consider it a feature.
    50:18
    But Pirates, we talked about this, is that how loaded Pirates is with everything. You could probably pick five different elements in Pirates and give that the award.
    50:30
    All right, best mod. Who do you think brought home the best mod? I think it has to be Penn Stadium. Yeah, it's Pin Stadium. Like, really, who else is it going to be at this point? Like, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of great modders out there. We appreciate what you do.
    50:44
    But I think the problem is Pin Stadium is something that's universally used on every pinball machine, just kind of like Color DMD, where the other stuff is more game-specific. And Color DMD is fantastic, too. Pin Stadium transforms gameplay. play like i i know we didn't really we didn't really talk about this on on the show but you know the the winner of the tournament that was winning a that was wearing a headlamp you know he looked like a spelunker right he looked like the guy from at the end of incredibles where he pops up and he's the mole man but the reason why he was wearing is so we could actually see the ball and so it wasn't like a a color feature or something pretty this actually transforms the game so i have black rose downstairs and i put the pin stadium in there and invisiglass and my wife came and said i never even knew there was a ship in the back of the playfield so that is completely have changed the game that otherwise okay so what i i i glow i glue a doll in there of a female pirate that's not doing anything no it's not no all right best theme and this is theme alone this isn't gameplay this is just the theme of the machine who had the best theme alone hands down it's got to be the beatles because the beatles people have been asking for it for years and so if you're just to say list out all of the themes the beatles is that's the unobtainium that they never thought was going to happen and so i would put the beatles um as now however i love iron Maiden so I would take Iron Maiden uh but I think it's the Beatles you know and now that you bring that up I can totally see that I could see the Beatles being the best theme of this year but it's not the one that actually took it Deadpool is actually what took it yeah I I guess I okay if it were if it were the movie then I would say sure because I think that like I am not like I read I was first introduced to Deadpool when I read comics in the 90s okay and he was a new character then so I get it but I think that people were really kind of hoping for that Ryan Reynolds character which is not really my bag of tea but I know that people really like it I would say it's the Beatles though because you know you go you vote with price so how much does something cost and the beetles cost more than anything oh yeah i guess all right next one i we won't spend much time on this one it's location uh yeah logan probably and sunshine i the the places that are on my bucket list to go to i'm there's there's logan i would love to go to logan i would love to go to sunshine i'd love to go to another world down in australia um you know i'd love to go to the Museum of Pinball, the Pinball Hall, you know, all those, sure. Pick your favorite. Fine. I didn't put any of those because I never been to any of those, so it didn't shock me when Logan Arcade won, though. They do a good job. Yeah. Okay, best light show. Do you know what? I'm going to go with Monster Bash Remake.
    54:04
    See, and that's what I would have went with, too, but I don't know if that falls in this category because Monster Bash didn't start technically shipping until January. You know, it was revealed in october yeah i i would put it because it it with the the way they changed the lighting and they the they integrated it and you can actually see the different modes and it really has a good feel i'm guessing uh well lighting um i'm guessing it'd be iron maiden did iron maiden take it or did pirates take it no pirates okay this next one isn't even it okay in my opinion It's not even a question who should win this one. It's one of those – like the tournament, Pinnberg takes it. Okay, streamer. Well, so streaming is – that is – it's a show, right? And the guy who started it all is Deathlip. He's the – Jack Danger. He's the guy. And yes, everybody else does it and it's great. And if you're home and you're like, hey, what's going on here? Great. Buffalo Pinball does a great job. Love watching their streams too. But it's kind of this whole persona, like who do I want to hang out with? Who am I going to? And really he started that. Now if you want to go with tutorials, you can go with Bowen's tutorials. But it really comes down to it's going to be a Jack Danger. Well, and here's the other thing about Jack. Jack, buddy, we love you. you do such a fantastic job and not just for streaming but for what you do is for the pinball hobby itself i mean he is a gentleman that goes out there and is spreading the word of pinball like it's his own religion the dude is out there with jeffree star he's going into all the the monsters reveal the deadpool reveal i mean he's at all these reveals and he i think it was head the head that brought it up he's one of the only other people besides roger sharp that can go from company to company and there's no issue um i think that the joke he doesn't have to do an nda for any of the stuff it's just pretty much a handshake because they trust him on that stuff yeah and so what what jack danger is doing for the hobby is leaps and bounds in my opinion than anyone else in the hobby because he just he is doing what we need to be doing for the hobby if you want to see it grow yeah he he's he's basically an ambassador he's a he's a non-denominational pinball ambassador okay moving on we got artwork so um so you're gonna get down to the the three biggest names in pinball right now so you got zombie yeti um you got uh um you got chris franchi and you have dirty donnie so it's gonna be any of those three okay what about the guy that did all the alex cooper stuff i mean that looked really good the alex cooper the the alice cooper uh you know what it's true yeah um come on there's octoberfest okay i will say okay i loved octoberfest and i'm not even talking like the creepy monkey like that like let's just say wow lapse of judgment on that one but um yeah i i saw the october fest like from afar and i thought that looks awesome it looks like a it looks like a bally williams come back to life like in the 90s it kind of looked like that so i was really excited to play it um haven't got one locally yet but i i'm really interested in it um yeah i i i think that when you look at what the options are i think that how much the everything's embraced and uh it's come on it's zombie yeti he did deadpool and he did iron maiden and both of them like when uh when the deadpool figure was released or the the whitewood and that was leaked and And everyone looked at it and said, really? That's the game? There's nothing on it. And then when it was revealed what he did, it filled the whole play field. And everyone forgot about that in the way that he did Iron Maiden and got that up. Now, that being said, I love the style of all three of those major guys. And we've said it before that on Munsters that you and I both went and played it. And we both looked at it and I said, wow, this is amazing in person. Like this really feels like something I would have in my house. I love what they did there and what Chris did there. I just think that with the Deadpool and the Iron Maiden, I just think that because Iron Maiden was so embraced by the pinball crowd that you have to at least give a nod to Zombie Yeti for that one.
    59:12
    Yep. Well and it was Zombie Yeti who ended up taking it home for Iron Maiden And that what I figured No shocker there And really when you look at how much Iron Maiden has changed over the years being able to dial that back and to say to try to unify all their different styles that a feat unto itself
    59:31
    All right. Moving on to YouTube. Who do you think won it for YouTube? You know what? I'll tell you who I would vote for is I would vote for Buffalo because, um, I love listening to them. And by the way, Nick Lang's a guy that I want to be like when he talks, I'm just like, he sounds so cool the way he talks about things. And he just sounds like a guy that you would love to hang out with. Um, he's, he's funny, just chill. And I, I like watching, uh, the Buffalo pinball guys, even when they do their show and when they do their, they're streaming so i i would vote for that the thing with uh youtube with me i think it's really hard because a lot of the people that are streaming then just post it on youtube so when i look at youtubers really the only people i see straight down the middle which zach and great did take it home yeah no and they're great too like i i think that it's really there's so many options out there basically you just have to pick the one that you see most and i just happen to see the buffalo ping the ball guys most so yeah i know what you mean all right moving on we got rules which game do you think had the best rules now this is where you have to argue it's gonna come down iron maiden or it's gonna come down to pirates of the caribbean like you have to look at that and really you have to argue okay do you get points for doing an encyclopedic rule set or do you get points for doing an elegant strict like focused rule set okay yeah so i'll tell you who i think won it i think it's going to be uh pirates of the caribbean who i think should have won it is i think it should have been iron maiden for keith elwynn saying no you need a five mode game you need to straight down and you need to make it very uh very understandable but but modifiable so So I'm going to – like I am totally giving praise to Keith Johnson for everything he does. Like all of his rule sets are crazy complex and crazy amazing. I'm going to give a nod to Keith Elwin for the – for how streamlined his rule set is. So for rules, it was actually Iron Maiden. Yeah, and I would say that. And I think it was well-deserved. Yeah, I think so too. And that is certainly nothing against pirates. uh, pirates. I think that what he's done with pirates is legendary. Um, and I really think it probably should have been a dual award this year. Moving on to that. Then who do you think the root, the rookie of the year was? Um, so between Eric and Keith, and this is something we actually just, this is something we discussed before recording. I don't know if Scott Denise, he was in the room. Yeah, I think he was from, I think he, because he was last year, I believe.
    62:17
    but, uh, I really, great options and for eric to come uh it's really legendary for what he did um but i i i'm gonna say that i'm gonna have to give it to keith and that because i don't know anybody who actually shot iron maiden who didn't say wow that game felt great like everyone is wowed by uh um by pirates of the caribbean and i agree with that it's it's an amazing game but if you're looking for something that will be a tournament legend game for years and it for hardcore collectors to collect it will be iron maiden and and keith ellen was the one that took it home for rookie of the year so it makes sense so really we're starting to see a theme here between iron maiden and pirates of the caribbean well it's the two big releases i mean really and i think that i'm wondering if stern was caught by surprise by how iron maiden took off i sure hope so well because okay it's not a okay i would say that people know the theme but i don't know of anybody who was saying wow i'm really glad you got the iron maiden theme i mean it's it's kind of niche right and for them to be able to do that and people say i don't care if i don't like the the band i love the game um yeah i i think that it's uh talking to jeff rivera he was talking about iron maiden and i think it's hilarious because he compared iron maiden to rush getting drunk and playing metal and which is also ironic because i love rush but it was just funny because there are so many people who do have that visceral reaction to iron maiden but will still play it in spite of the the theme all right so going on to animations and display one of the ones that stood out to me was actually Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. Okay. I think with the comic book style, it's something we haven't seen yet before.
    64:17
    I've been really impressed with what they've done with the display and whatnot. Who do you think took home the animations and display? I think that the guys at Jersey Jack should win this every year. Everything they do looks so brilliant.
    64:34
    So I would be shocked if it weren't. I understand the Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle reference. I just think that Pirates of the Caribbean is just beautiful yeah and it was Pirates of the Caribbean they did take it home on that one alrighty here's the one that we were not in because we didn't start doing this until this year Podcaster let me lead off with this let me lead please Podcast to me there is three people that can tend for this there's probably more I know there's almost 40 pinball active pinball podcasts out there now, but three took it home for me. You've got Head to Head. And the reason being is the amount of interviews, the amount of information. They just do a fantastic job. I know they're like a three hour podcast every Monday. They put a ton of work in. I can recognize that. I hope everyone else does recognize that. It's fantastic. And so especially with like the Lyman Sheets interview with the Chris Granner interview. I mean, there were so many epic interviews last year that they did. The Roger Sharp one. It just, it's hard not to acknowledge that they're on the table at a higher level than the rest of the podcasts. The second one, special one lit. And the reason being is they've got interviews that no one else has been able to get before. They were able to interview Steve Ritchie, which he will not do interviews unless if you're in the same room as him, because he has a hard time hearing um i think they also got lyman sheets on they've had they've had an amazing array of people they got brian eddie on i mean brian eddie hasn't been on anyone else's podcast except for special one lit so what else do you do you know i'm saying and then third he's always in contention he won it last year canada and the reason i put canada up here is you know he might be the guy that cries wolf when it comes to rumors and stuff like that but some of his stuff is spot on and he has admitted himself before some of the stuff he does is for show but you know what he knows what he's doing he knows that sometimes drama sells and that um to get the hook of the people is you got to be a little brash and out there sometimes and so even though i might not agree with most of his opinions i do uh think that he is a very admirable podcaster out there So what are your thoughts? I agree with you with Kaneda. I think that Chris is, he's very intelligent, obviously, and he has very insightful takes.
    67:08
    People, I think what will turn people on and off is if they like or dislike his style. And you can just make that judgment for yourself. I agree with Special One Lit. It's kind of amazing how they are able to get those small interviews, but I do not think there's anything that can compare to head-to-head. They took everything to the next level.
    67:35
    Actually, Matt saw Marty when he was at Texas, and he said he's actually coming to Utah, and so he may be here this week. So I'm going to send him an email and see if he wants to come to Tuesday.
    67:47
    That would be cool. yeah it's what marty and uh ryan do uh mainly marty uh i know ryan's kind of backing off a little bit but it's it really is legendary what they're able to do and the amount of work that they put into it i just i i can't even fathom and we do this for an hour every two weeks i couldn't imagine doing it for four hours every week um and it's high quality this isn't them rambling. This is them actually having good takes. So, yeah, I totally agree. So, uh, the guy that took it home was Canada. Okay. Good for him. And, and do you know what was awesome was his acceptance speech. He did have his little jabs in there, but you know, overall he handled it very well. He was very professional with what he said. And I was just impressed with him. You know, he's a gentleman that he knows how to be professional. I mean, that's part of his job. And so I just wanted to throw out, throw that out there. Cause it was, it was pretty impressive. So, yeah. OK, moving on. We've only got two more categories, gameplay and layout. OK, so gameplay. I'm hands down. It's going to be Iron Maiden. The yes. Eric did an amazing job with pirates. I think that that's in some ways, I think the epicness of what he did, it takes a little bit away from being streamlined. And so I'm going to give it to Keith and to say how much he refined that game. And in some ways, there's only some things you can do if you are the top player in the world.
    69:20
    The way that you look at shots, the way you imagine a pinball machine, there's a reason why Iron Maiden has been such a big success. So I would give it to Iron Maiden, and that is taking nothing away from Pirates of the Caribbean because it's such an amazing game. Gameplay and layout, it was Iron Maiden. which is no shocker to me either. So I agree with everything you just said on Iron Maiden.
    69:45
    Keith Allen definitely knew what he was doing when he made it. Okay, last one. Game of the year. Who do you think brought it home out of everyone that was there?
    69:55
    So it's going to come down to the two that we've talked about all night. It's going to come down to either Iron Maiden or Jersey Jack with Pirates of the Caribbean. um i i'm gonna say everything here that pirates is epic pirates had they integrated five game five movie licenses into one game they found a way of tying everything together they have this encyclopedic uh rule set that goes farther than any rule set has gone in the past they have five different mechs. They have the rocking play field that changes rocking direction and shooting. They have a wide body that doesn't feel like a wide body. They have amazing animations, amazing light show.
    70:48
    I'm going to give it to Iron Maiden. I'm going to give it to Iron Maiden because this is the challenge with everything we just talked about Jersey Jack is that it's hard to be the game of the year when you're also not like a huge seller in the year. Like it's hard to get the game out there because it's so epic, because it's so expensive. And you are also going up against, I would say, a surprise sensation in Iron Maiden where you have Keith Elwin who has an amazing knowledge of rules, has an amazing knowledge of layout. He was able to integrate his archer theme into Iron Maiden without missing a beat. and still being able to have it at an affordable price that gets into people's homes. And I'm going to give you points for being able to get a game out on location and into people's homes because that is the real challenge is being able to find it accessible to everybody. Well, no shocker, Iron Maiden did take Game of the Year this year, which was very well deserved.
    71:54
    See, I would say that Jersey Jack certainly has an argument. They have a good argument for being the game of the year. And really, the Buffalo Pinball guys had a really good analysis on why Pirates should be the game of the year. And I totally understand that.
    72:16
    I'm going to give you points for being able to bring pinball to the masses, though. Overall, I was very impressed. Most of it, I think the predictions were pretty spot on. I think Deadpool took away a lot more than I thought it would.
    72:31
    And it's going to be interesting to see in 2019. I mean, the only thing that's been released so far, we're in the end of March, is Cosmic Carnival and Munsters. So it's going to be interesting to see what the year brings for us, if all the rumors do come true. It'd be nice to know. There's a lot of stuff. So any bold predictions you think for the next year? Here's my bold prediction. They will have a Tron Vault Edition, which will be a premium type version. So it'll integrate a lot of things of the LE, but have a better art package, but probably the similar sound package. And that will be their Vault release. my bold prediction is that i don't know if i dare say this because he's my favorite designer but brian eddie will have a hard time living up to the hype oh geez yeah i think people look at brian eddie as you know he had three fantastic games and it's going to be interesting to see i think brian eddie actually works with stern's model looking at attack from mars attack from mars is, I don't want to say basic, you really take the ship off of there, and it's good flow, it's good gameplay, it's good whatnot. But I feel like he can fit into the Stern model a little better. But I think the problem is, there's a lot of people, Steve Ritchie included, that have followed Brian Eddy's model, and so that has been done for a while. And so it makes you wonder, what else he's going to do right and so he's either a going to blow us out of the park or b we're just going to be upset he doesn't meet expectation i really think there's no in between there yeah and it could be just it's the same thing as like okay the beatles and rolling stones they were amazing back in the 60s when's the last time you bought a paul mccartney album uh i haven't yeah and it's this like at some point the magic's gone so is the magic on i hope not because i would love to see what he does i hope not either and i really my my hope for him is is he becomes the next steve richie that steve richie patches the torch to brian eddy and brian eddy then becomes the the king of pinball i enjoy john borg i enjoy uh eric menier i enjoy spooky pinball but really i think we need a a fantastic designer that we look forward to and Steve Ritchie's that right now. And it's going to be hard to fill his shoes. Yeah, I think you're right. But I am with you. I'm looking forward to it. And I think you're right. It's binary. It's either high or low.
    75:17
    Yep. I really don't see much in the middle. And I'm excited to see what Keith Ellon brings to the table for his next game. Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, it will be a sophomore slump. Who knows?
    75:29
    Yeah. Or he might. That's the problem is he had all the time in the world to work on Animate and it's going to make you wonder what happens from here on out. Well, that's the same thing with bands. Their first album is always great, and the second album is the hardest one. Yeah, man, that wraps it up for us tonight. We're kind of going over a little longer than we normally do, but there was so much to cover at Texas Pinball Festival, we figured why not. Yeah, I think so.
    75:51
    So a little off our date of recording, but life gets in the way, and we don't have a schedule to adhere to.
    75:59
    Well, it's okay. We get paid the same. Well, one final note. I know we kind of touched on it a little bit, but not too much. We want to say thank you to Ryan C. I think that was awesome to see him come back on to head-to-head this last week. I do feel for him with a lot of the stuff he said. I hope he's still regular with him and Martin because I'm not saying one's better than the other, but it's like peanut butter and jelly, man. You can't have one without the other. And so I do enjoy that Martin's still been doing it, but it feels like we've lost a little bit of that magic with Ryan Seagone. I would say it's great, and I hope that Ryan Seagone finds his happy medium. I think the challenge is, just like we talked about, that everything they're doing is epic. It's to an amazing level, and that's why I think that I can do about an hour every two weeks, and that kind of works for me. But, you know, I hope that everything works out well. And certainly those guys are amazing. And keep going because I love listening to it. Yep, I totally agree. Oh, and one more thing. I keep wanting to say this. It's been months now. If you haven't checked it out now, the Slap Safe podcast is fantastic. They did an episode like two, three months ago. And you don't even know it until you're halfway through the episode and you're wondering what the heck is going on. But they pretended they went to the future and was doing pretty much an episode like two or three years in the future. It was fantastic. If you haven't checked it out, go check it out. Nice. Those are great guys. Same with Special and Lit. We love those guys too. Great podcasts out there. I definitely feel like we're in the category along with the pinball nerd. I love Albert. I love his new t-shirt. It says, your favorite fifth pinball podcast.
    77:44
    I'm like, we're right there with you, dude. We're not even fifth, so don't worry about it. We're not even fifth. If there's 40 out there, we're probably like 41. Yeah, out of 42. That's because the 42 is not recording currently. Yeah, exactly.
    78:00
    Awesome job to everyone that presented. Very professional. Yeah, it was a fantastic night. I kind of bounced in and out of the twippies, and it was just cool to see everything. Thanks to Jeff Patterson and Zach and Greg for putting that on. That took a lot of work, and it's very impressive what they have done for this hobby. I think that's also bringing the hobby to a new level and new standard. I really appreciate it. Yeah, certainly I ride the coattails of all the people who have way more time and are way more invested than I am in the hobby. So I appreciate everything. And go listen to all the pinball podcasts. They're all great, and they all give different takes on the situation.
    78:48
    I agree. And we've got hopefully a good year lined up for us as well. we've got some people that want to come on and so we'll see what happens. So. Okay. Well, sounds good.
    79:00
    Awesome. Captain. Well, it was great having you on. So. Okay. Signing out. See you in two weeks.