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Ep 18: SWEET PIN O’ MINE

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 16m·analyzed·Oct 9, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Keith Johnson reveals Guns N' Roses rules, design philosophy, and production details on Final Round Podcast.

Summary

Keith Johnson, lead programmer for Jersey Jack Pinball's Guns N' Roses machine, joins Final Round Pinball Podcast to discuss the newly revealed game's comprehensive rule set, featuring 21 songs, complex multi-stage gameplay mechanics (band member qualification, song modes with rocket meters, album progression), 350+ lights in LE and 600+ in CE, and collaborative design process involving Joe Katz and Eric Meunier. Johnson details the risk-reward framework, casual player accessibility, technical implementation challenges including new hardware boards for light control, and Slash's involvement in naming mechanics and recording original music.

Key Claims

  • Guns N' Roses features 21 songs with approximately 160 minutes of total music content

    high confidence · Keith Johnson and Jeff Teolis, official game reveal discussion

  • The LE model has approximately 350 lights; the CE has 621 lights

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, production specifications

  • Six programmers worked on the Guns N' Roses game, not just Keith Johnson

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, team composition disclosure

  • Light show choreography for every minute of every song was completed before release

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, technical implementation details

  • The game will ship with 1.0 code complete

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, release status confirmation

  • Co-op mode is not planned for launch but may be added post-release

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, feature roadmap discussion

  • The factory move and COVID delays were beneficial for final polish and completion

    medium confidence · Keith Johnson, reflective commentary on development timeline

  • Slash was involved in naming the 'Power Chord' rule mechanic and recorded original guitar licks for three album modes

    high confidence · Keith Johnson and Jeff Teolis, licensing and collaboration details

  • The game includes a selfie photo feature where Slash appears to take a picture with the player

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, high score photo mechanic description

  • Jersey Jack added three new hardware boards (accessory board for lights/servos, cabinet board for CE exterior lights) to support the game's lighting system

    high confidence · Keith Johnson, hardware architecture explanation

Notable Quotes

  • “So we knew that we wanted to do the concert game and I had a pretty good idea of how, in general, I wanted things to go.”

    Keith Johnson @ early_design_phase — Explains his initial vision and framework approach to rules design

  • “There's a lot of risk-reward in this game, and it's going to take players a while to fully grasp all the concepts, I think. But once you do, you'll realize there's a lot of strategy there, certainly more so than meets the eye.”

    Keith Johnson @ gameplay_depth_discussion — Core design philosophy emphasizing hidden complexity and strategic depth

  • “I actually wanted it a lot simpler than how it wound up, which is a little bit stunning to hear, I'm sure.”

    Keith Johnson @ design_evolution — Reveals that Joe Katz and Eric Meunier pushed for additional complexity (boosters, Slash Solo, tour modes)

  • “I vastly underestimated the amount of time that it would take to do the light shows for sure.”

    Keith Johnson @ technical_retrospective — Acknowledges light choreography as the most time-consuming aspect of development

  • “It's one of those things where for the first time, I feel like when I've been working on the game, I feel like it was a lot more fluid of a design than like usually I will have things laid out to begin with.”

    Keith Johnson @ design_process_reflection — Notes iterative design approach differed from his usual methodology

  • “Well, I'm just saying theoretically. I got you. You would not know just his general demeanor, you would not know that he is the god of guitar. So he doesn't wear a top hat when he goes to get a sub?”

    Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins @ Slash_personality_discussion — Humorous exchange about Slash's laid-back personality off-stage

  • “The problem with that whole setup is that you have perfect information when you're buying that extra ball... So if you're in that case, why wouldn't you hit the extra ball and make the two shots during the extended ball saver time and get to the end of the game?”

Entities

Keith JohnsonpersonJeff TeolispersonMartin RobbinspersonEric MeunierpersonJoe KatzpersonSlashperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Guns N' Roses officially revealed with promo video, mini documentary, and gameplay footage showcasing all cabinet models

    high · Keith Johnson confirms game is released this week with comprehensive media coverage (promo video, mini doc with Eric, Joe, and others, gameplay footage of different models)

  • ?

    code_update: Game will ship with 1.0 code complete; vast majority of games will have all features finished with only minor tweaks remaining

    high · Keith Johnson: 'Yes, it does [ship with 1.0 code]. Wow, good stuff... I'll admit there's a couple things that need to be finished up right at this moment, but they're very close to being done. So the vast majority of games will have stuff that is completely done.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Guns N' Roses implements multi-layered risk-reward framework: cradle penalty (meter decreases), song continuation vs. cash-out dilemma, album progression multipliers, encore qualification, booster multi-balls affecting rocket meter sustainability

    high · Keith Johnson detailed explanation of rocket meter maintenance, cradle-down penalty, jackpot accumulation requiring shot completion, album level multipliers, and booster benefits

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jersey Jack developed three new hardware boards for Guns N' Roses: standard bag board, new accessory board (controlling hot rails/light rails and servo spotlights), cabinet board for CE exterior RGB strips

    high · Keith Johnson: 'We've added an accessory board, which now drives basically the strip lights that are used in the hot rails... also that board drives the servos needed to move the spotlights around and then for the CE, we also have the cabinet board, which is capable of driving all the light strips on the outside of the game'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.231

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:39
Hey, how you doing? My name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. Welcome everybody to the final round pinball podcast. Martin, do you know where you are? You're in the fucking jungle, baby.
0:53
I'm assuming that's a Guns N' Roses song. No, I just want to fucking kill you. That's all. or yeah yeah it was welcome to the jungle holy cow was that ever a good promo video and i mean i get excited to play a lot of new pinball but that one really got me pumped uh a bit of a guns and roses fan here and uh we got a special treat for you this week we do indeed so obviously it has been revealed guns and roses worst kept secret and i agree with you the the fact that they got it into a studio with almost like stadium lighting around it it was for a game that is all about the show they really showed it off no it wasn't stadium lighting it was just the ce with 600 lights that's all it was it was all from the pinball machine uh it is and yes we do have a special guest on this week to talk about the rules and the code of the machine lead programmer for jersey jack's guns and roses pinball machine you know i'm you love him he's keifer keith johnson join us hey keith how are you i'm doing great jeff how are you guys well i would imagine you are extremely excited because i know you've been waiting for this game to come out for a while we've heard eric say that it's maybe been done for a while but you know you had the new factory and and covid and all those kind of factors but doesn't matter this week it's here guns and roses so uh congratulations on your new baby thank you very much. We're happy to finally get it out and everyone's seen it. It's great that I can finally start talking about it. What's been great about the release is there's a lot of information. There's a promo video for the machine. There's a mini documentary that has you and Eric and Joe Katz I've seen as well. But you get to see the different models. You get to see some gameplay. And specific to you, we actually get to see the rules framework and probably no surprise for anybody it's quite a comprehensive rule set well you know it's funny I know the guys have been trying to, they've been playing a lot of Tron lately and they've been you know, we want a game more like Tron it's like alright I think we can work that into this game so we have all the people you need to get and some other stuff going on but either you're going after the band members, or you're playing a song. That's really the two states of the game for the most part. You know, you get some album modes, wizard modes, whatever you want to call them, type things. But, you know, it's kind of a two-state game, and the meat and potatoes is during the songs. And there are a lot of songs, too. My goodness. Is it 21? 21 songs. That's right. I counted. I should have been more prepared. It was like I knew how long we had of all the songs, but it's something like 160 minutes or something like that of songs. And what I'm fascinated by is that the band and Slash and everybody gave you just every possible asset you can imagine. So, I mean, you have everything in the Guns N' Roses universe to work with. Yeah, that's right. I mean, being able to use the assets from their shows was awesome. being able to put together live footage of them performing the songs. Even though we're playing the studio songs, we put the footage together to kind of make it look like they're singing to the studio songs. And I think people will have a hard time telling that they're not really synced up. I mean, JP and his team spent a pretty good amount of time getting things to look really good. and it's really like you're at a concert, I feel like. So then talk to me about the journey of creating this rule set. First of all, how long does it take? But what comes first? Is it the framework or do you just start with different ideas, put them down and then try to somehow make them merge at a later stage? So we knew that we wanted to do the concert game and I had a pretty good idea of how, in general, I wanted things to go. So I knew that we need some qualifying stuff. We would need a way to keep track of ball savers. Because, like, if you qualify band members, you can keep shooting them and get more ball saver time when you start your song. So if it's a song, you'll get, like, 10 seconds by default. But I think you can build that up to, like, a minute or so if you keep shooting band members over and over, up to some limit on each person individually. And so we have the qualifying part. We have during the song, we have the rocket meter, which like a rock band or whatever, you're trying to keep it up so that you're scoring more and so that you don't get booed off the stage and just end your song. We have the jackpot system where everything you're doing during the song adds to the jackpot and then getting the mode system within the song where each song basically has its own set of goals. And every so often, you complete the set of goals and light up the scoop to basically keep the mode going or not. And every time you keep going, you get another ball, you get a jackpot multiplier. So there's a lot of incentive for you to keep going and going and going. But at some point, you wind up with a huge jackpot, and you're like, man, do I really want to keep the song going? Because I have all these points at risk. And if you're down to one ball, it's like, yeah, I get to add a ball, and I might lose it right away. And then where am I? Like, got to make 10 shots before I can cash out again. So there's a lot of risk-reward in this game, and it's going to take players a while to fully grasp all the concepts, I think. But once you do, you'll realize there's a lot of strategy there, certainly more so than meets the eye. That's new for you, Keith. You normally don't make deep games. Well We tried our best so that Everyone could enjoy A song in the game right You get the typical you know band members Spotted at the start of a ball if you haven't played a song Yet at the end of the game You know on ball three we'll try Our best to make sure that you get a song If you shoot the scoop so We're trying to get So that everyone can have the benefit Of playing a song And because that's really where the game shines, I think. So as you're building up these songs, if you don't build them up to the three-minute threshold or whatever the setting is, you actually get booed off the stage. And one thing I love that you've incorporated in this is... Okay, can I interrupt real quick? Yeah. So the rocket meter thing, you know, that can, early on, the first couple songs, it's pretty easy to keep it higher. You know, it'll get harder to keep it higher as you go on. But, yeah, so you're touching on qualifying the album modes, which is literally how long you're playing a song for. And so if you play a song for three minutes, which is the default setting, then you'll qualify the album mode. But if you play the song for another three minutes, then instead of being silver, it'll be a gold record. And if you play for another three minutes, there'll be a platinum record, and then there'll be a diamond record. So, you know, there's lots of layers to the different strategies. Like, do I keep going and build my album level up higher? Because the higher you build your album level up, the way more your album mode is going to score when you finally cash that in. And that's the thing I love about this game, the risk-reward, too. And one thing I heard in the Saps interview with Eric, they were talking about Joe playing the game and Joe Katz obviously a great player like yourself Keith. One thing you've done in the code here is you can't cradle up because if you cradle up that decreases your meter. Love it. Yeah that was definitely my little contribution late in the game.

Keith Johnson @ co_op_explanation — Detailed economic and game design reasoning for delaying co-op mode post-launch

  • “Yes, it does. Wow, good stuff.”

    Keith Johnson responding to 1.0 code shipping status @ release_readiness_confirmation — Confirms game ships complete with 1.0 code, major milestone

  • “I could have it done in a day, and then everyone would have it. So it's just that they haven't spent the time, dedicated their resources to do it yet.”

    Keith Johnson @ co_op_implementation_feasibility — Claims co-op mode is technically straightforward but not prioritized

  • “You spend a whole credit to buy one ball instead of a credit to buy three balls.”

    Keith Johnson @ economic_game_design_principle — Explains historic Williams economics that inform modern feature rollout strategy

    • Guns N' Roses
    game
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Final Round Pinball Podcastorganization
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Greg Ferrisperson
    Kenperson
    Dwight Sullivanperson
    Pinsideorganization
    Williamscompany
    Trongame
    ?

    licensing_signal: Slash involvement: named 'Power Chord' mechanic, recorded original guitar licks for three album modes, consulted via Skype, participated in photo shoots with top hat

    high · Keith Johnson: 'He did provide music for three of the album modes... So he recorded some licks for each of those three modes. And, you know, so we've got original Slash music in the game... Eric is completely right about the power chord story. He had no freaking idea what to call that rule... He finally asked Slash and he came up with that thing.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Game designed with intentional casual player access points: band members spotted on balls 2-3 to guarantee song access, keyboardist and Richard positioned as easier shots, song modes as primary experience, album modes achievable every ~20 games for casual players

    high · Keith Johnson: 'we tried our best to make sure that you get a song if you shoot the scoop so we're trying to get so that everyone can have the benefit of playing a song... casuals have a shot at seeing an album mode, you know, every 20 games or so, hopefully'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Light show implementation vastly underestimated; requires choreography for entire length of every song (160+ minutes total); LE has 350 lights, CE has 621 lights, each requiring individual programming

    high · Keith Johnson: 'I vastly underestimated the amount of time that it would take to do the light shows for sure... every single minute of every song is choreographed the entire length of the song... 150, 160 minutes, whatever it is, there's that long of light shows to go with them'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Six programmers worked on Guns N' Roses; Keith Johnson lead with collaborative design process involving Joe Katz and Eric Meunier; design evolved iteratively with late additions (boosters, Slash Solo, tour modes)

    high · Keith Johnson: 'There were six of us working on this game... I would say, like I said, we had a lot of people work on this game'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Discusses community impatience and speculation criticism during multi-year development; Keith acknowledges wearing effect of online pressure but tries to avoid snarky responses

    medium · Keith Johnson: 'it just wears on you after a while, just reading, like, oh, where's the game? Oh, what are these guys doing?... And, you know, every now and again, you know, you'll find some snarky ass comment I made on Pinside... I try to make it not as much of a habit as I feel like I could'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Co-op mode planned for post-launch implementation, not at 1.0; Keith Johnson cites economic principles (perfect information problem with buy-in extra balls in 1990s Williams) and implementation time as rationale for delayed rollout

    high · Keith Johnson: 'it will probably go in the game at some point, but it's definitely not going to be right away... I could have it done in a day, and then everyone would have it... It's just that they haven't spent the time, dedicated their resources to do it yet'

  • ?

    business_signal: Factory move and COVID delays reframed as beneficial for final polish; allowed extended development time that improved game quality and completeness at launch

    medium · Keith Johnson: 'with the factory move and covid and stuff like that it was a lot more time to get everything together and polished and stuff like that... it was a blessing in disguise for this game, I think'

    • 9:04
    I was like you know we talked about it for a while so I finally threw it in there and it's like at first it was pretty brutal like if you didn't know about it and you're holding the ball on a flipper you're gone in like, you know, probably 10 seconds or so. So we dialed it back a little bit and made it a little bit more fair. But you got to keep fighting the game to make sure that, you know, you get the full benefit out of it. And as another risk-reward thing, if you get to the complete end of the song, like the literal end of the song, you play through all eight and a half minutes of November rain or whatever, if your rock meter is high enough, then you will get an encore, and you could play another song for free without having to qualify the band again. So there's all kinds of levels of risk-reward throughout the game, and the game really rewards you for taking risks and performing. It's a little bit different of a game than we've done before, but I think it's a lot of fun. So obviously what we're seeing is there's obviously lots of single-ball rules, and I know with the band members as well, they could become multi-ball as well. there's rules here for casual players and for the more advanced what sort of experience do you think a casual player will have what do you think they will see when they play the game can i guess a lot of lights well hopefully hopefully they can i mean the light show even not in the song i think is pretty good you know we tried our best to really utilize all the i don't know 350 or so lights in the le that everyone has and the ce's got something like 600 or so i think 621 i think i count it and uh yeah there's light shows for all kinds of things i mean spinners have a good light show the record wheel has a good light show so casual players will see all that hopefully they will bat the ball around and get a few band members the keyboardist shouldn't be too hard to get because it's just rolling over that insert right in the middle richard is the power shot on the right flipper so hopefully they nail that and get him if they get a ball up a right ramp they'll get frank and then if they're having trouble with duff and axel which is a little bit harder for casual players then they'll get spotted for them at the start of ball two and ball three so by the time they're at ball three they should definitely have a song ready to go and be able to experience the concert experience of the game and then you've got additional multi balls as i said there's a lot of multi-balls as well. Make some noise, throw the lights. Oh, yeah, boosting it up. Yeah. Then there's Coma multi-ball as well. So, yeah, I guess when you look at this framework, you think, wow, there's so much code that's gone into it. How much of it am I going to see? And that's why I thought for people that are thinking, I want to buy this machine, but maybe it's a bit too much. I just wanted to know how much of a great experience they're going to have, even though they might not get to, not in this lifetime the final wizard mode so yeah you mentioned all the frameworks and stuff and the game has a ton of systems in it that you know i laid out at the start of the project they would have to accomplish the rocket meter the album counting up uh the jackpot stuff the ball saver system you know all the all those systems uh the booster system that eventually came into being All the systems add up, and those affect every game. I mean, there's not really code in the game that most people aren't going to see. I mean, yeah, you know, you've got to do okay enough. I mean, you can brute force your way, hopefully, through a song long enough to qualify the album mode. You know, three minutes, it's a while, but if you get lucky and get some attaballs and just keep flailing the balls around, you know, you might last long enough. And if you don't, then you can start another song of that same album and keep adding the time to it until you get to the point where you can play the album mode. There's a lot for people to do. And I think casuals have a shot at seeing an album mode, you know, every 20 games or so, hopefully. I heard you talk about in the Straight Down the Middle video that you saw them in concert in Chicago. I've seen them not in this lifetime concert as well. I've seen them seven times over the past 30 years. It's a band I love. And when I saw the light show on the game and remembering what it was like in concert, I was like, yep, there was a lot going on. And I love that you pressed hard to get Live and Let Die put in, which is obviously not a Guns N' Roses original song. No, it's not. So there's some licensing to that. But the reason I'm so happy you got that in is because in that concert, that is an insane light show. And we saw the example of that on the video. You're absolutely correct about that. And I got, you know, camera phone footage of it while I was there. And as I'm sure you're aware, the phone camera will not do it justice to how your eyes are bleeding at the actual show. But, you know, I was showing it to the team. I was like, you know, look, man, this is where we got to get, you know, during Live and Let Die, so that everyone gets the fact that if they've been to this tour, then they will know exactly what we're going for when they get played that song. That's absolutely the moment that I was driving for, and the Straight Down the Middle video shows it pretty well, I think. Their music is an adrenaline rush, and when you see them in concert, it's even that times 10, 20, 100. It's just crazy. The lights that you put in the game, I felt that same rush. Yeah, well, I'm glad. I mean, it's gratifying to hear that. I mean, we've been staring at this thing for quite a while now, and you get to the point where you've been looking at it long enough and you don't necessarily remember walking up to it for the first time. So when we finally were getting to the point where other people came in and saw it, like when Zach and Greg came in to shoot the videos and stuff, just seeing their reactions to it. when Ken first started at JJP, his first reaction to it. And then everyone who's started to come by in the past couple of weeks or so, it's been really gratifying to hear and see the reactions to it and people generally getting at what we're trying to accomplish. As I mentioned before, you're actually well known for deep rule sets. And I've had a number of your machines and they've stayed the course because it's always got that one more go factor. Can I actually finally get to the end of a Kiefer game? But this is obviously the same path of the course. It's got a complicated rule set, which you're obviously experienced with. You've now got a complicated light show over the top of it. What are the challenges that come with that? Because I would imagine prioritising light shows and modes and when things are joined together are quite a challenge for you. Right. So the deal with the game is I actually wanted it a lot simpler than how it wound up, which is a little bit stunning to hear, I'm sure. But I was like, you know, I was originally just pushing for qualifying the band members, getting to the songs, songs where you want to be. That's where we got to spend all our time. And, you know, we did that to a large extent. But then Joe and Eric in particular were like, man, I just don't know if there's enough to do, in the main game or whatever. And they threw out the idea of doing all these booster stuff, which are now in the game. And I reluctantly, admittedly agreed, and it turned out to be a really great idea and added a lot to the game. And there's a lot of strategy even just with those multi-balls. And then we added a couple other things too. The Slash Solo stuff was not in there to begin with, but a couple of guys really wanted to do that. And then we have the tour thing That I don't know that we Scheduled an end for but now There's an end to completing all the cities So the four albums And the slash solo and the tour Multiball all combined to Get to the end of the game And the boosters don't really contribute to the game But they do make the rocket meter go down Slower so there's definite Advantage to Playing those multiballs aside Just from scoring points you will make your song easier to survive if you keep playing them before each song. But ultimately, the complexity of the game, I think, just arises from all the different number of things that we had to keep track of and how to best present those ideas to the player. We definitely went through a number of UI iterations trying to get to the point where, I mean, we're trying to convey a lot of information to a player during a song. and I think again, I've been looking at it for a long time but I think we're at the point where it's pretty understandable but when you're playing a song you've got the live video, you've got the stage video occasionally you've got video of you you've got the rocket meter, the album readout, how long you've been playing the album for, the jackpot how long to qualify the jackpot the album level which is basically a score multiplier for the albums. It's a lot of information to convey, and no one's going to get it all first. I heard you say that there were multiple programmers involved, not just yourself. I assume Joe Katz and others as well, too. And you talked about some of the device drivers, some new things in the Jersey Jack game. Right. So we added a couple of new boards to our game to be able to drive all of the lights in the game. So there's a new board like it. People are probably familiar that have our games with the bag board, which is the board that controls the lights in the game. We've added an accessory board, which now drives basically the strip lights that are used in the hot rails the light rails on the side of the game And also that board drives the servos needed to move the spotlights around And then for the CE, we also have the cabinet board, which is capable of driving all the light strips on the outside of the game because there's a ton of lights that run along the bottom of the CE and along the back of the CE. So, yeah, so we had a couple of boards we were developing device drivers for. The resultant code in the game to make those work, and then programming all those lights, which the lights took a lot longer than I thought they would, honestly. I mean, we have a lot of tricks and stuff like that to make things easier to do, but it's still a lot of work to choreograph an entire eight-minute-long light show for a song. And believe me, every single minute of every song is choreographed the entire length of the song. However long the songs are, 150, 160 minutes, whatever it is, there's that long of light shows to go with them. But then you've also got on the collector's edition, there's 600 RGB lights to program versus 300 on the LE. How do you do that? I mean, is it just so much more additional code, or is it that whatever sequence you've got on the LE just uses more lights on the collector's edition? Well, I'll be honest with you, we haven't totally finished doing the collector's edition yet. Some more attention will probably need to be paid to those exterior lights. But for the most part right now, they will just generally adapt colors similar to whatever the play field is doing right now. So if we don't do anything, it still looks pretty good. But we'll probably do some special effects just with those lights when we pay more attention to the CE when it gets time to build those. Keith, true or false, when you released the video of this game and people saw the lights, did Dwight Sullivan call you and give you a... No, I haven't heard from Dwight yet. But, yeah, I know he has a reputation for being an eye-bleeder. So, yeah, it's pretty funny. Going all the way back to Ice Speed 2, honestly. I remember you get a special in that game, and your eyes would just forget about it. You know what I was thinking about? Jersey Jack should partner with Pinshades. Right now, those Pinshades and Guns N' Roses, the perfect combo. I'm looking forward to it. I'm kidding, of course. The lights are fascinating. And, again, if you want that concert experience, you're getting it with this Guns N' Roses game. And I heard Slash talk about working with Eric a little bit. Did he work with you at all? I know he came up with the power cord, and I'm just wondering if there were any kind of modes influenced by Slash. Not so much. I mean, we drove most of the rules and the systems and how the game would work. He did provide music for three of the album modes. We asked him, hey, you want to whip something up for these things? He's like, yeah, sure. So he recorded some licks for each of those three modes. And, you know, so we've got original Slash music in the game, which is pretty cool. But, yeah, I mean, Eric is completely right about the power chord story. He had no freaking idea what to call that rule. And we had been struggling with it for a while. He finally asked Slash and he came up with that thing. Everyone was just like, yeah, that's it. I mean, you know, it's just one of those things. It's like, you know, you're not in that mindset or whatever. And, you know, like Eric, the music geek, talking about, you know, crescendos and allegros and whatever, you know. Did Slash punch Eric? I'm sure he would have been next to him. But, yeah, it was comical, to say the least. But, no, I was in Skype with Slash. I've met him once. A lot of the teams met him twice. And the dude is just absolutely fantastic. He's like one of the most laid-back guys you could ever talk to. I mean, you never know. If you just walked up to him on the street and had no idea who he was, you'd have no idea at all that the guy's like a freaking mega rock star that everyone wanted to be when they were kids. I'm guessing if I did run into him on the street, I probably would know who he was.
    23:40
    Well, I'm just saying theoretically. I got you. You would not know Just his general demeanor, you would not know that he is the god of guitar. So he doesn't wear a top hat when he goes to get a sub?
    23:56
    I don't know. I can't answer. I guess he didn't really wear the hat most of the time with us, but he did put it on when we started taking pictures. And, oh, that's another thing. So we tend to use the camera for high score pictures and stuff like that. And this time, this game, we actually have it set up so that it looks like Slash is taking a selfie with you. So the game takes a picture, and then it kind of, like, superimposes Slash to make it look like that you're, like, behind him. He's taking a picture, and you're there with Slash. So I think that's a pretty cool thing that people will get a big kick out of when they see it. Marty, what do you think of that? I totally disapprove of any kind of Photoshopping. We've never done it on Final Round. Only legitimate photos, no fakes. So I don't know. The game is great, but I'm not sure about that.
    24:45
    He left them speechless. So how would you compare this to other games that you've coded? Would you say this has been the same or easier or harder? I would say, like I said, we had a lot of people work on this game. There were six of us working on this game. I don't know. I think I vastly underestimated the amount of time that it would take to do the light shows for sure. I don't know. I would just, you know, it was one of those things where for the first time, I feel like when I've been working on the game, I feel like it was a lot more fluid of a design than like usually I will have things laid out to begin with. And that's pretty much where things end up and with very few changes. But here, as we were playing the game, it's like, oh, this doesn't feel right. And, you know, I was like, like at first you say you have to play through the entire song. and then if you drain your ball, well then, okay, then the song's over. But then we're like, we're going to make people, you know, play 150 minutes of songs to get through the games. Like, well, of course that's not going to happen. So we finally came to the point where we decided you need to get out of the song and how are we going to get out of the song and why would you get out of the song? Why would you keep going in the song? So that whole mechanic popped up. As I said before, the boosters came much later. throwing in slash solo came much later so it was interesting in that you know i thought i had a pretty good handle and idea of what we wanted to do but even though we did everything that i wanted to do we wound up adding a lot more to it as well to keith at the start of the project would say much to my chagrin but obviously the game is much better off with all the stuff so and you know i hate to say it but with the factory move and coven and stuff like that it was a lot more time to get everything together and polished and stuff like that. So, I don't know, that was kind of a blessing in disguise for this game, I think, to get everything to the point where it was complete, you know, out of the box. People have a great experience with it, you know, from day one. It's just funny how things work out, I guess. This isn't your first reveal. This isn't your first game. You've been around the block once or twice, Keith. And I know that a lot of people have been speculating about Guns N' Roses for a long, long time. and people are like, where's the game, where's the game, where's the game? Isn't it funny in pinball that once the game is released, people seem to forget that, and especially when it's able to be shipped? Short memories, because at the end of the day, it's not when you release it, it's how you release it and how good is it when you release it, not how quickly you release it. Well, obviously I agree with you, and of course everyone who's excited or interested or just wants to know what we're doing or whatever, and I can completely understand why they would have that attitude. I mean, I had that attitude. I've been doing this for 20 years now, but, you know, I remember what it was like when I was playing on location and wondering what the next game was going to be and that kind of thing. Reading RGP, looking for the beta reports of the games going on location. Yeah, so, yeah, everyone forgets about everything leading up to it, maybe except for us. Like, I certainly don't forget that. Like, it just wears on you after a while, just reading, like, oh, where's the game? Oh, what are these guys doing? Oh, it's such a clown show or whatever. And it's like, do you ever just write back, fuck off?
    28:08
    I've been close to it a few times. And, you know, every now and again, you know, you'll find some snarky ass comment I made on Pinside or something like that. Because, you know, I was like, you know, look, dude, come on. What are you talking about here? But I try to make it not as much of a habit as I feel like I could.
    28:30
    So let me ask you probably the two most common questions that I see at the moment, and maybe you might give a fuck off to one of them. The first one is, will it ship with 1.0 code? Yes, it does. Wow, good stuff. Okay, the second one? I'll admit there's a couple things that need to be finished up right at this moment, but they're very close to being done. So the vast majority of games will have stuff that is completely done. Oh, no, I know what you need to fix. for Duff McKagan, you put in Duffman from the Simpsons. You fucked that up, Keith. Oh, shit.
    29:04
    Wrong game. Duffman likes your attitude. The next one. Will there be a co-op mode? That is a great question. So I know I've talked about this a bunch of times. I feel like I might have even talked about it with Jeff last time. But it's one of those things that it will probably go in the game at some point, but it's definitely not going to be right away because like Williams had back in the 90s, the extra ball buy-in button, that button was designed to increase earnings by making people spend a lot of money for a very short experience compared to what they normally spend, right? You spend a whole credit to buy one ball instead of a credit to buy three balls. The problem with that whole setup is that you have perfect information when you're buying that extra ball. Like, you know where you are in the game. Like, you know if you have the final mode lit or you're like two shots away from it. So if you're in that case, why wouldn't you hit the extra ball and make the two shots during the extended ball saver time and get to the end of the game? Like, oh, I don't have to play it anymore. So you have a game designed to be the carrot on the stick after a certain amount of time. And if you let them get the carrot, then they don't need to chase it anymore. So my general answer is when co-op modes finally start showing up in games, it will be significantly after the release of the game so that the play time or the discovery time or whatever isn't just coiled right off the bat. But I think people need to appreciate that co-op isn't just something that's very easy to implement. There's a lot of coding that goes into that as well. So I think what you're saying is focus on getting the game as is absolutely perfect, because it is obviously quite complicated, then work on that. Yeah, I mean, you can say that, but, you know, it's like, I really don't think it'd be that hard to implement, honestly. Okay. I bet I could have it working in a day, and then it would automatically be working on every game that we made. You know, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. It's just that they haven't spent the time, dedicated their resources to do it yet. That's something you just touched on right there. I could have it done in a day, and then everyone would have it. So explain the differences in this game, about the Wi-Fi and the Bluetooth. I know the speakers, which is a totally different experience, especially with such an exciting concert game like this one. Right. So, yeah, we are introducing Internet support. you know also wi-fi support and bluetooth so with the bluetooth being able to use earbuds or bluetooth headphones or whatever i mean not having a wire is obviously a major win but then being able to actually use modern technology and listen to your game is uh i don't know it's pretty cool and with the the music especially like you said you know the game sounds a lot cooler when you're listening to it with headphones. It just does. I mean, like any music does. So it's an important thing to start rolling out and let people experience if they like. With the internet stuff, you know, it's like you hear people clamoring for what they think they want. Like, let me be able to monitor my games for my house or let me be able to compete in tournaments online and stuff like that. All that stuff is garbage. No one really cares about that stuff. Because, well, first of all, you can't, it is impossible, no matter what anyone says, to prevent cheating in a pinball game. It's like, yeah, okay, you can have glass detectors and fish finders to know if the glass is on the game, but you're not going to stop someone from wiring a super jackpot switch to a slingshot, right? I mean, that, you can't prevent that. So just that alone just disqualifies any form of actual real competition on games that are not the same, or not, at least in the same place where one person has control of the games or whatever. What we do have a problem with, a real problem with, is people messing up the update process one way or the other and getting frustrated, having to call support and help them through it, or we have to send them out a stick or a new SSD or whatever. So being able to do updates over the internet is going to be a huge win in terms of the simplicity of updating your game compared to the process that it was before. It's like now once you set up your game to be on the Internet, all you have to do is go to the menu and say check for updates. Like, oh, here's an update. Do you want it? Yes. And then let the game do its thing and you come back sometime later and it's updated. I mean, that is a gigantic win that is going to be a boom for people updating their games that don't do it now because they just don't care enough to learn the process. Now, you were talking about headphones, and I know you said it sounds better, but I can also see that the topper comes with a soundbar. I'm curious, have you heard this machine with the topper with the soundbar just absolutely cranking out? And did you shit your pants?
    34:20
    No, I haven't hit the brown note yet. But, you know, I've been afraid to turn it up all the way just because, you know, I value what, you know, little crappy hearing I have left. No, I haven't sat there and experienced the audio, you know, wind blowing to my face or whatever. I do want to know about this, though. When I think of Kiefer games, I do think about them being deep. But a lot of the games, Pirates, Wizard of Oz, Simpsons, you can stack a lot of things. Is that the case with Guns N' Roses? It is to some extent. I mean, certainly the boosters all stack together and you get, you know, significant bonuses for doing so. When you're in a song, though, the songs are just songs. They are they might have a lot going on to them. I mean, you've got the power code. You've got band frenzy. You've got completing the modes and getting to the add up all plus jackpot increase. So there's a lot to juggle and there's a lot going on. So in a way, you know, it's kind of like there's five things going on at once that are stacked, but there's not really a lot out of a song that stacks into the song. In fact, nothing really stacks into the song. So out of a song, you know, the booster stack, but some of the other things like slash solo, that is by definition a solo act. It's, you know, a single ball mode. Two or multi-ball, I guess, would stack with some stuff. You know, it would probably stack with the boosters. And band qualifying goes on during all things. So, you know, a legit strategy is to start up some boosters, two or three or whatever, and start going after the band members while it's easier or safer to do in multiball. So, I mean, basically almost anything you can do in, quote, single ball play, you know, you can do during multiball and stuff like that. But there's not a whole lot of disparate things that really go together in what you would consider a traditional pinball stack, I don't think. So considering you've programmed a lot of machines and you've done some cool rules before, is there anything that you've done in this where you've stopped and thought, fuck, that's cool. I have, I've not done that before and it's great. People are going to love it. Well, I mean, I feel like just the structure of the game itself is definitely different. I mean, you know, we don't, like the song really, the game really is two parts, right? It's getting the band members and it's playing the song. And those are the two stages of a game, like I talked about. You know, getting to the album modes later, you know, sure, that's a thing. But I haven't really done, like, it's almost like a switch, right? You first turn the game on and you flip the switch down to A and you're playing one part. And then you start a song and you flip the game to B and you're playing this totally, completely different part. So it's like the two games bear little resemblance to each other. You know, other than the fact that they share a play field and they share band members and stuff like that. But it's really much different from what I would consider games I've done in the past, which, you know, allow stacking or, you know, have things that kind of go on top of each other or, you know, whatever. It's a different style of game. That's always something I've tried to do my entire career is not make the exact same game twice. Now, I've said half jokingly and half not that Wizard of Oz is basically Lord of the Rings 2, which is funny because Hobbit is nothing like that but that was on purpose because I didn't want to do Lord of the Rings 3 like designers fall back on play field designs I guess and sometimes you fall back on code designs that work but I really try to bring something new to the table each time we do a game and this game is like a radical departure from stuff we've done in the past but I think in a good way and I think in a way that There's a lot to bite off at first, but I still think you can have fun with it and not care about any of it, too. Right? Because you can get to the song and flail five balls around the play field and have a bunch of stuff happen and score a bunch of points. But if you care to there is a lot more to learn about what goes on in a song and really light the game up as it were I know that Jack and Slash have been friends for years and years Slash has been pushing for this game to be made by Jersey Jack for quite some time now This is a different game for Jersey Jack as far as the mature content if you will when you think of the previous games. But there is a setting, and the factory setting is family mode or whatever you want to call that. Yeah, absolutely. Was there any struggle about, okay, is this a Jersey Jack game? Is this a Jersey Jack theme, or is that just a coincidence that the other games were more family-friendly? I would rate it more as a coincidence, probably. I mean, I'm not going to lie. There are a lot of people in the company who are like, all right, yo, this is our chance. We're going to show them that we're not the family-friendly company all the time, right? We're capable of doing, you know, edgier stuff, but not just edgy for the sake of being edgy, but, you know, legit reasons that, you know, it goes with the theme, right? I mean, they're a fucking rock and roll band. So, yeah, they're going to swear a little bit. It's going to happen.
    39:36
    When does scoring come into this? Because I'm also curious to know, the commonality I've found with Jersey Jack machines are they are low scoring at first, but then there's this moment where scoring is exponential. For you, with the programming and design process, when does scoring come in, and is it going to have a same sort of philosophy as the previous games? It's a good question. So the way the game works right now, there are definitely certain moments that can blow the game up to varying degrees. So having all four booster multiballs running at once, it basically means all the scoring for all those modes together is multiplied by four. So if you're getting a super jackpot for Pyro, you know, it's multiplied by four, combined with a super jackpot for lights, multiplied by four, et cetera, et cetera. So, like, I've seen Joe score three million points on a single four-booster multiball before, which is, you know, a pretty fair number of points for that game. The scoring really takes off. so there's a number of factors that go into it so each song has a score level which is kind of like we used in Pirates and Pirates is based on you know it's for the wizard modes of Pirates and it was based on the characters and the multi-balls that you play the super jackpots you got so he brought that concept forward to Guns N' Roses where the score level is based on a bunch of things like the number of cities you've been to the number of balls you've locked the number of balls in play how many times you've continued the song. So there's a score level that affects the scoring of the mode and the amount added to the jackpot. Then every time you continue the mode, then the jackpot multiplier goes up. So it's definitely a bunch of things working together, and if you get to the end of a 10-minute song, it's very easy for you to have a horrific jackpot there waiting for you to just blow your opponent out of the water. So getting your songs to a state where they will score well and then executing in the songs because, you know, just because you set it up doesn't mean you can execute it all the time, obviously. Are you as involved in scoring values as you are the rest of the code? Oh, yeah, for sure. I think, you know, I don't think the game is, like, perfectly balanced yet, but it's pretty good where it is right now, and it's definitely a lot of fun to choose one song and your opponent picks another song and, you know, CU blows up the game better or Joe blows up the booster multiballs or, you know, maybe someone gets a Slash solo and has an amazing Slash. Like, that's another mode that can just score a zillion points if you can execute it perfectly. So, you know, there's a lot to the game and several different ways to really make the game meaningful. Was there ever any thought about putting in a mode where you kick out band members? No, I mean I think you'll see just with the The way the artwork is There's less of a Emphasis in general On the band members themselves And how they look I mean, obviously, you know They're all representative of who they are But there's not really You know, it's not really photos Of them on the play field, obviously I mean, they're like skeletons and they're monsters And stuff like that Which is perfect because that's what they were in Appetite for Destruction. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's definitely taking that concept and moving it along. It's a nice way, I think, to make it more timeless than a specific point in time where people look a certain way or whatever. And, Keith, finally, this last question comes from Pinside. It says, great game. When's the next one?
    43:38
    I don't know. If we're lucky, it'd be about a year and a half from now, right? Ah, Pinside, God bless you. This is amazing. I'm so thrilled. I can hardly wait to play this game. I said it before, I'll say it again. It is the best reveal presentation I have ever seen. Jersey Jack always has a way of taking things up a level. When they first came on the scene and with subsequent games, and now this, the big factory, how much programming has been put into this game. You've got an iconic band. You've got Slash, who's so passionate, absolutely contributing to this game. It seems like a perfect storm, and I can hardly wait to flip it. Well, I certainly appreciate it, and I think if everyone gives it a chance, they'll have a good time with it, especially if they... Hopefully there's enough there to suck everyone in, to learn about the game more and really, like, truly realize how much there is to the game and, you know, ways to explore it. And, you know, I hope people give it a chance and get to the point where it's like, okay, I really understand this game now and I can really take it to whoever I'm playing and just blow them out of the water. Well, thanks again, Keith. I cannot wait to play it. I've got two of your games in my collection. We might get a third. I love being able to explore these things and also in many different ways when you start the machine. So congratulations on what's been presented as a great machine. and can't wait to get it in my hands. Thanks, Marty. I really appreciate it. I hope you guys get some games soon. Well, that's the thing. I've heard people from all around the world saying, yeah, we're getting it this week. So that's another impressive thing for Jersey Jack. You know, I said when all these games were announced or were going to be announced in the last 30 days or so, I said, you know who wins? First of all, you have to have a good game. That's not a question about it, and this is definitely a good game. But the winner is the one that ships it. because if you can get it in hands, and I know a lot of people that are flipping Guns N' Roses this week, that's a big win, especially for Jersey Jacks. So well done on that. Thank you. Yeah, it's been a little bit painful maybe to keep sitting on this thing and get to the point where, all right, we've got games built up. We're going to blitz it all out there now and get people's games in the homes right away or whatever. I think it's going to work out really well, hopefully. I mean, it seems like it is so far. yeah, I'm looking forward to where this thing ends up and I think people will really enjoy it. I mean, like I said, it's a departure from what I do, it's a departure from what JGP does. You know, it's certainly a different play field than what Eric did the first time. So, I mean as much as you can depart from one game, I guess, but it was quite an experience and I think people will really enjoy it. Thanks, Keith. That's perfect, buddy. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. So there we go. Keith Johnson, Coder Extraordinaire. What did we learn, Jeff? Keith couldn't handle the job himself. He had to get five other programmers. There were six of them on there. Did he get one sixth of pay or what's going on there? I don't know. That's how big this game is. Oh, yeah, that's another way of looking at it. I think it really is. There kind of was a question I was going to ask and I forgot, which was if it was just the same coding team that you had previously, how much longer would this take? I mean, he was just fortunate that there's so many people to work on this because as per usual, it's got the Kiefer stamp of rule depth, but then you've just got this phenomenal light show over the top. Every time I talk to a Jersey Jack owner like yourself, you know, they just are in awe of how many intricacies are in the games, how much attention to detail. Even their standard edition is just chock full of so many goodies. I'm just so impressed with all three of these models. Absolutely. I think, you know, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm a fan of Guns N' Roses. I've always had an appreciation for them. I like what they do. I like some of their songs as well. I loved the Data East pinball machine not being a Guns N' Roses fan. I think, first of all, if you are a fan of Guns N' Roses, massive tick. You're getting the full Guns N' Roses, well, let's call it the live experience, the concert experience is what they're trying to do. but I think even if you're a fan of pinball, if you're a fan of Jersey Jack, I think they've absolutely nailed it. It's something about these Jersey Jack launches. I know it's only their sixth game, but everyone to me is just this great anticipation and excitement when the reveal happens. And I find these reveals just get better and better. Yeah, we knew what it was. And yeah, we knew Wonka was coming in pirates before that. It doesn't matter. You still got to see the game. And when you do, you're just like, holy moly. Yeah. And I've said this many times. I like to be part of the reveal experience like everybody. So when I woke up at 5 o'clock this morning, I saw it for the first time as everybody, most people did, and was just jaw-dropping, going, I can't believe what I'm seeing presented so well. The layout looks great. This is Eric's second game, so there was a lot of anticipation on, could he do a good follow-up to Pirates? and again, I think layout looks great, lights look great and obviously now that we've spoken to Kiefer, the rules look great as well. I want to get my hands on it and by the way, big shout out to Ken Cromwell. When this was launched on Monday, you had the videos that Jersey Jack produced. You had Eric talking with Slash. You had the full-length video that you talked about in the Keith interview with Straight Down the Middle and Zach Manning putting that together with the cast at Jersey Jack and some great footage there. The Super Awesome Pinball Show had pre-recorded with Eric and did a great job as they explained that. Buffalo Pinball, Kevin Manning got his game shipped on Monday or maybe even before then so that the stream can happen tonight, Wednesday. And then, of course, we had Kiefer all lined up. So this is all Ken Cromwell realizing that streamers and podcasters, yeah, we're just voices or people on screens and stuff. I'm not saying we're influencers, but I'm saying people listen and watch us. And I was happy to see that Jersey Jack did this. Yep. I think it's an appreciation of a really quick distribution channel. You've got video. You've now got audio. You've got pictures.
    50:01
    Everything's completely covered as far as the launch goes. So thank you, Ken, for being able to coordinate all these really third-party people that you've entrusted to deliver your marketing and your product. And hopefully we've done a good job. Obviously, that's why you chose all the different parties. And I like that Jersey Jack does that. I wish more would do that. It's not always the case. Some people like to hold their cards a little close to their chest. Okay. Well, some streamers and podcasters like to maybe ignore that then because they don't feel included. And I don't think it's a matter of being butthurt. It's just, hey, we're here to help. You and I have always promoted pinball, right? Absolutely. And it's not like we're doing it because we want the exclusive and we want to grow our brand. It's more that we are enthusiastic about this and we want to be a part of the process because that's fun for us. Let's put it this way. If we really wanted to be that person, and we've both been broadcasting for almost four years each, if we wanted to say, hey, we know this title, this title, this title, we could give you probably eight titles right now that are coming out, but that's not who we are. That's not who we will ever be. It's not our thing because, like you just said, I woke up this morning, and I like the reveal process. I like when games are launched. So do I. I like that surprise. Yeah, absolutely. It's the excitement of being a pinball player as well as a broadcaster. But I now just want to get my hands on it. I don't know about you, but I just want to play it. I want to stream it. Yeah, I just want to experience it. And I imagine you'll see them in Australia. I know they're going to be coming to Canada soon, and I already know a bunch of places in the States that are getting them. So I said it in the interview. I was really happy to see that these games are being shipped right now. So maybe that's why it took a little extra for this to be released. But you know what? I like that. I like that they've got the games out and ready to go. Yeah, and true to his word, that's what Jack Guarneri said, was that in the future they are going to announce and ship within weeks of the announcement. So there you go. Done it. Would you want one, Jeff? In a heartbeat. It's not even a question. It's just a matter of, okay, I've got to think things through. I mean, I guess that's a great problem to have. There are a lot of good games being released in the last, certainly a couple of years, but in the last 12, 6 months, I mean, just very, very impressed. So the bar keeps getting set. It keeps raising and it keeps raising. And, yeah. Okay, so I've got to rob a bank.
    52:34
    Yeah, I've got to find space for it. Probably get a job as well, maybe. Nah. Stop it. Nah. You don't need a job when you're getting paid by our sponsors of the week. Come on. Absolutely. Speaking of which. Communication. It's how we understand one another. But sometimes there are language barriers. Like if you're Canadian or Australian and you're trying to speak to people in the United States. How will they understand what we're trying to say? Thankfully, we have developed the final round Talk Like an American audio tapes. We've always been cunning linguists, and this crash course will give you the essentials you need in 49 of the 50 states. Uh, 49? There's no course that can help you from Massachusetts. Here's an example of how simple it is. Say about. Aboot. No, about. About, eh? Say about. About. You got it. With a few of these lessons, you'll be ready to advance to the next level, conversations. Aren't conversations just listening to the other person and don't talk until it's your turn? Not in the USA. You'll never win a debate like that. The loudest wins. If you think that's how it works, you're sadly mistaken. Don't tell me how to talk. I'm a professional broadcaster. You don't know the first thing about debating. I get paid to talk, all right? No one is going to believe anything you're saying. You're just riding on my coattails. I don't need a co-host. Listen to this clown. I can do this without you. Just shut up, man. The final round, talk like an American, audio tapes. Available wherever records and CDs are sold. Where the hell is that? Exactly.
    54:14
    What was the shot at Massachusetts about? Have you ever heard them talk? Chuck Webster, hello. Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, and you're worried they might be offended? They won't get the joke.
    54:29
    We are so topical. Well, that's why people listen to Final Round, all right? I mean, they cancel their subscriptions to Fox News and CNN. They come right to here. You know, news every two weeks. That's all you need. That's what we do here at Final Round. Absolutely. One thing that I wanted to bring up that I saw come up in my Facebook feed was something about Cabin Fever, which is a pinball arcade in Toronto, I believe. And didn't I go to Cabin Fever when I was there? Didn't you take me there? Was that it? I took you to Tilt. Cabin Fever was in a different end of town, but your former partner, Ryan C, when he came to Toronto, this would have been in 2018, we went there and he wound up going back the next day too. So he was only in Toronto for two and a half days, went there both days too. So obviously with COVID, like so many different places. So if you think, okay, I don't care about Cabin Fever because it's Toronto, insert the name of whatever arcade is in your town that you are passionate about, okay? It's the same kind of feeling. So what I actually did record a special segment on my other show, Pinball Profile, with Robin Harrison, the wonderful owner of Cabin Fever. And a lot of people that enjoy Cabin Fever and what it means to them, you're going to hear Ed Robertson talk about it. You're going to hear the Castlemans, a family out of Ottawa that played there. You're going to hear about that they had the first ever women's provincial championship at Cabin Fever. It's a special place. and just like whatever places in your town, we want to see these survive and it's a tough go. It really is. And I'm hoping that we can get through this, but sometimes these places need your help. I must have met Robin at Tilt that we went to. You did. That's exactly right. We went to Tilt and she was there. You're right. Now that I think about it, that is correct. You have a good memory. Yeah, I don't. I just remember some things. I remember Robin because she was just awesome. Yeah. No, you really do have a good memory because you were fucking hammered. That's actually not true. Every other time I was, but not then. That was an off day for me.
    56:36
    On the seventh day, Martin Rest. Yeah, correct. Seventh minute. So, Jeff, what have you been up to the last two weeks? You didn't really want to ask that. You're just following the show notes. Okay, fair enough. It's in the script. I can't bypass that.
    56:52
    Last couple of weeks. I have Ken Walker, actually, and I've got to take him up on this. He's at Galloping Ghost in Chicago, Fine Arcade. He's offered to help me based on last week's show when I was talking about Medusa and the sling kind of just fluttering and stuff. He said, hey, give me a call or FaceTime, and he can walk me through it. I was busy on the weekend when I saw his note, but I will definitely take you up on that, Ken, and thank you very much for that. So I could be doing some repairs very soon. Whew, jeez. Good luck to everyone involved. By the way, Bruce Nightingale was listening to Final Round laughing his ass off when we said, what are we, slam tilt? Couldn't do repairs and stuff? And he just said, ha, ha, ha, Phillips screwdriver? And I was like, yeah, I think it was.
    57:39
    Is what we dropped into the play field Yeah How about yourself Do you know what I actually really not played any pinball I haven actually even really streamed the last couple of weeks either. I've been working on a project that you and I have been involved in, if you want to talk about that. Is that the sperm bank? Yeah.
    58:05
    Oh, for pinball. I got you. Okay. Oh, that actually split my sides. Sorry. Besides that. Oh, that thing again, work-related. Go on. Well, for those people that don't know, Pinball Expo is going ahead this year in a different way. It's virtual, and Rob Burke, God bless him, you know, Expo has just been so wonderful the last few years, and obviously with COVID and the restrictions in Illinois, not going to happen. They can't have that kind of capacity in one place. so it's all going to be online. Yeah, Virtual Pinball Expo 2020 is going to be happening. What the hell does that have to do with us? Well, I believe we've been asked to do a presentation. Wow, 2020 has really gone to hell in a handbag. But yes, we are doing a presentation.
    59:00
    Yeah, if you're asking us to do a video presentation. Please tell me it's not repairs. No, definitely not. No, so we've been asked to talk about podcasting, and we've recorded most of it. We've got a special guest as well, and I've been spending a lot of time trying to... I'm putting lipstick on a pig, basically. I was just going to say, yeah, camera doesn't fix ugly. That's right.
    59:28
    We have an audio medium for our promotion for a reason. we're not necessarily the best to look at and we're certainly not the best when it comes to video production so i hope you enjoy what we put together uh that's what i've been working on maybe we can put other heads on and just like have the lips move and we can talk through it because we do get compliments on our voices and they're very flattering we appreciate that but no one's ever said my god is that a handsome devil no not at all it just doesn't happen no not at all so when is Chicago Pinball Expo going to be on? When will people be able to log on online and watch these seminars? Expo is going to actually take place the same time it would have normally. So I think the bulk of it will be the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, the 15th through the 17th, but I think there are some things also on October 14th. So that's great. Think about it. Final round, we're only on every two weeks, but you get us kind of inserted in that off week. Wow. You're going to get your fix. Yeah, you're going to get sick of us very quickly. See, we were smart. Every two weeks, we're like, yeah, people will just be burned out. Yeah. You know, we could take our time like other podcasts that take a long time to get to 18. I'm not mentioning any names. Again.
    60:48
    I don't like to beat the same drum. I mean, I don't like to talk about tournaments I've won. It's just not who I am. All right, let's move on. Move forward, I always say. Yeah. With all this talk about what's going on with Jersey Jack, you know, I didn't even talk to Keith about this. see that action button in the middle? What does it do? I didn't even ask him. Because you avoid action buttons. You don't want to... No, no, no, no, no. I'm accepting them. It's just the... Oh, are you a button convert?
    61:16
    It depends how many times I have to press it. Sure. That's all. And I'm not trying to rehash an old story here, but it's just not my big thing. I don't mind it hitting it once. Maybe even hitting it three times. That's fine. I gave Kiefer shit for pirates and the collecting gold. But I don't even know when I play Pirates if I'm mashing that a lot, because I know you're supposed to, but I think you only have to hit it like three or four times. It's not like you have to hit it a hundred times, I think. I don't know. Who knows? There's so many freaking modes in that game.
    61:44
    It's not so bad on Pirates. You can choose to collect your gold. It's not like there's this countdown that says you have to let go of the flipper button to mash it. You can do it in your own time, really. There are no TIE Fighters, apparently, in Pirates of the Caribbean. That's kind of what I was getting. But you know what? We've seen a lot lately. He talked about the Wi-Fi, the Bluetooth, DeepRoot when it comes out, the pin bar. All these innovations that are coming out, they're all missing the mark. Every single company. And I'm telling you right now, this is the next great innovation. And whoever takes it, I'm not going to patent it. You can take it. I'm telling you, it will be the greatest innovation in pinball ever. Tell me, Jeff. what is this next great innovation insert drum roll the next amazing innovation in pinball on the lock bar is a calculator what do you calculate to figure out the multipliers and all the scoring the risk versus reward holy shit my head is spinning yeah yeah and that's kind of I did ask Kiefer, obviously, about scoring, and, you know, we had the answer, and I couldn't calculate it in my head. I'm the kind of person that likes to go through the game, and I feel the further into the game I'm playing or the longer I'm playing, I will look up and my score will be high. That's usually how it works, and it's a Lyman thing, I think. I heard somebody once say it about some of his games. no one's knocking Lyman. Don't think that's where I'm going here. It's just that you do the right things and you're rewarded. It's not how long you do things. Yeah, but you've got to know the right things to do. Well, I'm sure they tell everybody where the add-a-ball is and there's all kinds of information on the card. So that's not a problem, Marty.
    63:45
    Let's not go to Let's not do hashtag add-a-ball gate or hashtag apron card gate. Jeez, unbelievable. But yeah, I don't know. It's one thing to be absolutely spoon-fed everything, and then there's being able to discover it yourself. I find that a double-edged. Sometimes I get really frustrated not knowing, but then I kind of get joy in discovering something myself rather than being told. So if something was laid out right from the outset and I understood it, I would probably get over that game quicker than a game where I'm left to fend for myself. Marty, I actually agree with you. And you know what? I do like some surprises too. I don't like wizard modes revealed. I mean, for how long I owed ACDC and it took me forever to get to Encore. Well, that gave me the most excitement I've had in that game and I owned it for four years. You know what I mean? So, and even when you were talking about co-op mode, you know, he doesn't really want to reveal that. Maybe down the road, but not right away. I think it's exactly the point you're making. There needs to be some surprises. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, some reveals after the reveal. But I do think that calculator is money. I'm telling you right now. I was reading a post. It was from Greg Pavarelli, and he has a Guardians of the Galaxy at his house. I do as well. And he was trying to figure out these multipliers, the rampage double scoring, getting into group multiball, hitting it a few times. So now it's 3x multiball plus rampage. So that's three times two plus the shot multiplier. that times another two, getting to the second level of something like sibling rivalry. Okay, second level is multiplied by two or whatever the case may be. He had this 24 multiplier and just blew it up, and he was mathematically right. And I was just like, okay, that's a lot to stack. And remember, Rampage is a timed mode, so is the group multiball. You've got to do a lot of that together. Robert Gagnon's been doing it and streaming it, but the math there, I mean. Which one's Rampage? Rampage, the one from the raccoon kickback thing? Yep. Yeah, so your war machine shot for Iron Man. Yeah. It's kind of in the same spot. Yeah. What is that raccoon called? Rocket. There you go. Is he actually a raccoon or is he some alien that just happens to look like a raccoon? Well, he doesn't like being called a raccoon. In the Avengers movie, he was flattered when Thor called him Rabbit. But he is a raccoon. Yeah. But he's actually... Well, he's not a raccoon. I don't know what he is. Let's spend the next hour figuring it out. Yes. Let people write in. FinalRampinBall at gmail.com. Let us know what sort of creature is Rocket. Or we could just Google it. No, don't email us that. In fact, email us what you continue to email us. And you know what? We've been a little lackadaisical as far as reading our emails. And they're coming in and we apologize. I think we just like hearing our voices so much that we forget about the emails. That's true. But we should probably acknowledge some of the people that have reached out to us on our email, which is... Which I just said. What is it? FinalRoundPinball at gmail.com? Yes! Congratulations. I clicked it. Insert cheering noise here for you getting it right first go. In our defense... Nobody inserts noises on podcasts. Come on. That's cheesy. That's great. In our defense, I don't know whether this is defendable, but they have been in relation to the underrated pinball machines, which we have finally got a solution for. So now we can talk about these emails that reference the underrated pinball Battle Royale. We came up with 16 games that were not in the top 100 on Pinsight at the time of this bracket creation, and we posted the bracket. We just never put the poll up because Facebook went, we don't want polls anymore. shame on you Facebook for Mark Zuckerberg ruining our lives it's okay to gather our information and sell to third parties but you don't let us have freaking gifts where we can make our audience laugh how dare you shame on you stupid billionaire alright so the first one thank you Kevin Peterson for writing in he says I just wanted to say I like when you guys talk about games like best of the worst and bad movie great pin it's fun to hear what you each like about a game and what makes them interesting for you to play I went through and based on games I've played and really enjoy my best of the worst are Junkyard, what do you think? hmm, whenever I play Junkyard, usually it's in competition and the video mode is disabled it makes it a better game I don't think it's a bad game yeah, I think it gets well regarded, it's just not you wouldn't say it's the best His next one is Mustang You know, that's what I said I think is the most underrated pinball machine Yeah, you and I both love that Yeah Radical, I know for a fact you really like Radical Especially with the Soarin' Rom Yep, absolutely Monopoly Oh, what? You like it? Yeah, I don't mind it Also, Monopoly was Get this Monopoly was the first Stern game I played. Well, that doesn't make it good. No, but I've got a nostalgia. That's like saying if you played Big Buck Hunter first, you're like, oh, I love this. Oh, that's coming up on this list too. Oh, is it?
    69:18
    But no, I have a bit of a soft spot for it because that was my first experience getting back into pinball. And I don't mind it. And you know I'm not a fan of Pat Lawler's. And this one I quite like. I think it's a bit... I would definitely say it is underrated. It is actually quite an enjoyable game. It's not the best game in the world, but it's not bad. I was talking to Raymond Davidson about Lawler. He really likes Lawler games a lot. And I said to him, I love a few Lawler games, and I hate his other games. There's not a lot of middle ground. Now, I play Monopoly a lot in league, in playoffs even. I do well in it. I just don't find it fun. Yeah, okay. Fair enough. Future Spa is next on the list. Great game. Okay. I don't mind wide bodies, and I love old games like Future Spa. There are, what, three, four in lanes on the left? Mm-hmm. And it has the worst orbit spinner in pinball that I can think of, and it's like an orbit spinner. The worst spinner in pinball, I think, is Big Buck Hunter. But the right orbit, you can't rip that spinner, and that's what spinners are all about. It's just too hard because of the super wideness of the game. yeah yeah it is a tricky shot but it's a it's a fun game i don't know whether it's ever gonna rank any higher than where it is you just love the artwork that's what i thought you were saying before oh i don't like the artwork i'm like the artwork is you blew it up it's in your bathroom you got a big picture of future spa don't tell anybody it's just hilarious but again it was back in the day where you would just have these themes that, what the future spa? Like, how is that a thing? But apparently it is. The artist painted it with a boner.
    71:08
    He didn't have a brush, he just let's be honest. So the next game on his list is just a game that no one ever talks about. And again, I loved this game when it came out. I don't think it's aged all that well, but this is The Bally Game Show. And I'm your host, Keith McTeeth. Come on. You got it, no? Keith McTeeth? I've only played the game once. It was at Pintastic. In fact, speaking of Chuck Webster, who we mentioned earlier, he had one of his trash talkers. You know, I thought trash talker meant you talk smack about somebody else. I think he was just referring to the way he speaks. He's a trash talker. Right. But the point is he had it at this big trash talker event in June last year at Pintastic. That's the only time I've ever played the game. And of course, we're trying to abuse people while playing it, so it really didn't get a lot on it, but it looked all right. It hasn't aged well. I think the rule set is pretty simple and pretty linear, but it's fun. I could imagine a lot of people like it. I did, when it came out, I remember playing it the day it came out in the arcade here in Australia, and I loved it. I played it solidly for quite a while and then never played it again. I had my fill. It's a fun game. Big Buck Hunter Pro is next on his list. Bad modes, dumb birdshot, spinner makes no sense coming out of the pops, the buck doesn't work a lot of the times. This is true. I was in a league and it was at a location and they only had six or eight machines, so you had to play it every week. I quit the league because I didn't want to play it every week. Really? I actually quite like it. Seriously? Yep, yep. I am a fan of Big Buck Hunter. I'm a fan of Stern Machines from that era in that I like that the rules aren't overly complex because you know what I'm like when it comes to retaining rule knowledge yeah we're the same do you know what I really do hate the game it is the only only John Borg game I don't like that's a pretty good resume out of all the games he's made only one game fair enough okay then what about Twister? I've played it only once and it wasn't in a competition or anything like that it was just probably in a showroom like maybe at Pintastic or something like that yeah I don't really know the game well it's another John Borg oh is it okay? yeah it is it doesn't get a lot of good praise it's not bad it's okay well thanks for the list Kevin I appreciate that And sorry we took us, I don't know, let's see, oh, two months to respond to you.
    73:57
    But we will eventually get to your emails. We responded to him right away. We just didn't read his email, and I think he probably wanted to hear it on the podcast. So thanks, Kevin. Excellent. What else have we got, Jeff? Well, there's a couple more emails. We're going to save the one from Greg Silby next week because it's quite detailed. It's really, he did some neat analysis. But we did get a nice fan letter from Tom MacArthur, and I'm going to read it. At my age, I'm unaccustomed to writing fan letters, but I felt I should reach out and let you know how much I enjoy the Final Round podcast. Before COVID, I didn't listen to any pinball podcasts, despite the hobby taking over the lives of my wife and I for the last couple of years. I do check out my shows from my buddies David Dennis and Orbital Albert. So obviously this is a Maritimer from Canada. One of your recent shows, you talked about the most underrated games, and it gave me considerable pause. I look forward to Facebook getting their act together and allowing your poll to go forward. Anyway, please keep up the interesting content and obvious banter between the two of you that makes Final Round my favorite pinball podcast Don't tell David or Orby, we won't Oh, shoot, he did Too late He said, I need them to continue attending the tournaments I organize when things get back to normal Sorry He's the IFPA rep actually for New Brunswick in Canada One of our provinces Where's that? It's on the east coast Okay Near Nova Scotia, and yeah, it's beautiful The things you know Ta-da. Appreciate it. Thank you, Tom, for writing in. So again, email us finalroundpinball at gmail.com. You can also find us on Facebook. We have a lovely group there. And also Instagram, Final Round Pinball Podcast. And I'm going to guess that Twitter is Final Round Pin. You have absolutely got the trifecta this week. Well done. Wow. But speaking of the underrated pinball battle royale, how are people going to be able to vote? There won't be the GIFs. We're going to do the voting online. We'll combine it. I think we should combine it because we have all these sources. So maybe we'll put – can you put a poll on Instagram? I don't think so. No. You can on Twitter. Our commitment to you, our very valuable listener, is that by the time the next episode comes out, you will have had the opportunity to vote for the most underrated. In the first round. Yes. Yeah. For the most underrated Pimble and Machine. based on what we think is the most underrated, not what you think. Well, we say goes. That's how it works here at Final Round. Absolutely. Pinball influencers.
    76:26
    Hashtag. Funny. Well, thanks again to Keith Johnson. Thanks again to Ken Cromwell of Jersey Jack Pinball. Congratulations on Guns N' Roses. Check out the stream on Buffalo Pinball for a first look at that wonderful machine. And I think we've got to do this in a couple of weeks. Oh, yeah. We'll be at Expo next week, virtually. It's a lot of fun. Yep. So watch that, keep listening, and we look forward to speaking to you again soon. As long as we're paid. That's it. My name's Jeff Teolis. My name's Martin Robbins. Stay safe.