The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Hey, what's going on Pinball Land? Welcome, it's episode 2 of the Pinball Show. I am one of the hosts, Ken Cromwell. With me today, we've got Zach Menne. And coming aboard for the first time in the Pinball Show career is Mr. Dennis Creasel. Dennis and Zach, what's going on gentlemen? Ooh, Dennis is back! yeah i'm finally here i i was just wait i was waiting to see if all the the waves of drama would pass or if your if your tpn ship would capsize have you been hiding dennis from all under your bed i've been hiding in plain sight i'll have you know that that episode of eclectic gamers where i talked about all of the drama with tpn is now our most downloaded episode of all time Wow, beat the Mueller episode? That is how sad this hobby is. TPN helping podcast numbers across the industry. I wanted it to be like a fun episode. It wouldn't be a popular episode. When you get a hot idea, Dennis, you got a hot idea. What can we say? Normally, I think we would probably break into the TPN headlines for the pinball show. Why don't we go ahead? Let's get some housekeeping done here at TPN because I do realize there's been a lot of questions. Questions and people wondering this, that, and the other thing about what's happening at TPN. And without it getting long-winded, I think that we can answer a couple of those questions first right off the bat, and then we can get into some news. Does that sound good? Yeah, I think it's an excellent idea. Does that mean that Dennis and I are wearing our little French maid outfits? Is that where that goes? A little feather duster there, Den-Den. Tickle, tickle. A little tickle on you. So Twip's picking up right where it left off. Yeah. I forgot how little I missed any of this. just so happy let's start with the real fun of housekeeping i suppose so i think the main thing to point out uh because people have noticed versus the launch trailer versus some of the initial scheduling and then what they've seen on the finalized scheduling is that a couple of the founder names weren't being listed anymore greg bone and jason fowler i think that it it's up to them to say all the motivations about why they've pulled away i i will be willing to say yes they are not involved with tpn anymore and it has nothing to do with their relationship with us so it's there's no bad blood we're not mad at them they're not mad at us it didn't have anything to do with us you know there was a lot of what we might describe as toxicity expressed on some of the forums and there was a lot of initial backlash of course which was was talked about before the show all started and everything and you know that uh that's very grating it's very wearing i think the biggest thing i said repeatedly uh was that i was very tired myself i mean i would have walked away had i not given my word that i would do this wow i'll be 100 honest dennis i was in the same boat where i was thinking is it all really worth it well i mean you're doing it for the fun of you're doing it for the fun and love of pinball and here's the thing i don't actually owe anyone anything so at some point it's just not worth my time to go through a bunch of of grief watching people criticizing am i going to you know i'm using generalized terms but like is it going to be a shill is this going to be to sell flipping out games and stuff like i thought i had a reputation and it wasn't any of that but here i am watching just people take their digs uh trolling left and right and it's like that's not really my style and i don't owe any of you anything so i don't have to do any of this. Fair enough. I can say that Greg Bone is one of my good buddies. Whenever he took his exit, he did say that that was impartial, his idea for exiting the Twippies as well among a couple of other things. Hopefully, Greg can speak on that in the future whenever he's comfortable. He's taking a step back from media in general. A lot of it was because of some of the slander and stuff that he had experienced. He said the same thing. He's like, this is dumb. We're trying to have fun and people are angry. So yeah, no thanks. It's not as complicated as it seems because I had a conversation with another podcaster not even two days ago that didn't understand the concept of a team getting together to work towards something that is a team concept and having some fun. It didn't register. So if you don't really understand, there's not much that I can do to help you to understand after I've tried to explain it several times. And at that point, it just gets frustrating, not only for me, but for the other person that's trying to have this explained to. And it's just easier to kind of walk away and understand that, hey, we're not going to see eye to eye at this point, so we can kind of go our separate ways. Well, I think a lot of people, in terms of the general public, are probably getting a better sense now that we've had, for example, a week's worth of podcasting content come out to see kind of, at least conceptually, what's being realized in terms of the different styles, the different voices, the different expressions of opinion and just the drastically different formats that were going on, not to mention what we've all been seeing in terms of the diversity of content being offered on the live streaming side. So I think slash hope that a lot of people are getting on board, at least on board in the sense that they understand what our goal is, whether they like it or not is, of course, completely up to their own opinion. But I recall with – because I knew Greg was planning as well to not host the Twippies along with his sort of reduction in involvement. But, Zach, I've now seen that you're also not hosting the Twippies. This is true. I am no longer the host. And you had been publicly expressing the plan still right up until just before TPN launched that, yeah, you were still planning to be involved with it. So is that something you want to elaborate? Because there was a statement that I saw on Pinside from Jeff with This Week in Pinball. and then he had another statement later in the day and so i was a little confused because those two statements didn't seem to align yeah they were very different so uh jeff and greg and i agreed on a parting of the ways for for numerous reasons um and we agreed on a statement put it out there and then it changed a bit uh because we were all taking some some questions and some messages just saying, what the hell's going on? And I want to thank everybody out there, listener-wise, that enjoyed what I was able to create for the Twippies and had very nice things to say in private messages and publicly. So thank you all for that support. Believe me when I say that me walking away from something that I helped create and something I was more excited about in pinball than maybe anything else was very, very difficult for me, and it's still difficult for me. and I would have done anything I could have to be a part of it while still making sense for everybody involved and all creators involved. But respectfully, Jeff and I and Greg kind of came to a head to all that, and it made sense for us to kind of take a step back. But I have no doubt that the Twippies is going to be exciting this year. I'm hoping that I will have as a sponsor a front row seat to it so that I can cheer on all of the winners and all the presenters and I'm really excited about it. So just I'm done with the drama. I don't want to be part of any more drama. So if you are hearing some things, it's very likely not true. Maybe it is true. Maybe it's not true. But it's just let's spare any more drama by going into any more details regarding something like this. At the end of the day, we're having a lot of fun. We killed it on week one, you guys. Week one was a big week. We killed it on week one. The Twippies is something that matters now. and I'm very proud to have helped create something that really matters and hopefully for Jeff's sake and the community's sake we'll continue to go on and continue to flourish and that's all I've got to say about that. Okay. Well, that was all fun. Are we done with the episode now? Can we talk about some news? Shit. We do have some news here if we want to discuss it. I just figured since drama is what draws everybody in it was kind of fun to kick off the episode addressing some of the drama But if you'd like, we can go right into the Pinball Show news. Yeah, this maid skirt is creeping up my butt. It's time for TPN Industry News. Chris Chandler here, bringing you the latest in Deep Root news for the Pinball Show. We're just over a month out from the Deep Root launch in San Antonio, and the news keeps flooding in. Okay, seriously, I have to give it to Robert. He runs a pretty tight ship, and there's not been much in the way of leaks leading up to what has to be an exciting day for the entire Deep Root team. Did note that in mid-January, Deep Root re-upped many of their trademarks. This includes not only the Deep Root pinball name itself, but also their slogans like, Pinball for the Masses, and Every Family Needs a Pinball, Every Pinball Needs a Family. Both of which have caused a bit of a stir given recent changes in how Robert Mueller is defining value. Will we get that Ferrari at a Kia price, or will the Deep Root package provide so much more than what we see from the rest of the field that their market prices might seem like a steal? Well, only 30 or so more days until we find out. Reporting from Deep Root for the Pinball Show, this is Chris Chandler. Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. As Jersey Jack fans wait patiently for the next title announcement, some have been receiving some large boxes in the mail. Replacement unpopulated playfields for clear-coat issues are now arriving in buyers' homes. Not only are Willy Wonka playfields showing up, but the first Pirates of the Caribbean playfields are being seen as well. Anecdotal evidence points to these playfields being clear-coated using a different process or material that seems to be harder and less prone to denting when a fingernail is pressed into the clear. This is good news for Jersey Jack Playfields going forward. Pirates of the Caribbean beta code is still developing, with reportedly additional changes rolling out for some of the characters. And one Pirates of the Caribbean owner has developed a mod that brings the action out from under the glass. When the Black Pearl fires its cannons, smoke is emitted from a small smoke machine that brings the battle to a whole new level of immersion. Apparently the smoke dissipates quickly and doesn't cause any issues. The creator of the mod says that it can be adapted to other machines as well. For The Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Lights, camera, and UV action, plus code updates galore. Hey everyone, happy Monday. I'm Craig Bobby, The Pinball Show's Stern News Correspondent. Well, in case you've been stuck in the Upside Down yourself lately and didn't hear the news, Stern revealed a secret feature of their most recent title, Stranger Things. Hidden UV reactive art. Yes, images that are activated through a special UV light accessory mod sold through Stern or an authorized Stern distributor. According to the Stern website, this one-of-a-kind UV lighting kit, which includes UV lights, plastics, hangers, and even a special apron, will turn your Stranger Things pinball playing experience upside down. Custom interactive code will activate lighting during dramatic events and experiences throughout gameplay, immersing players into the Stranger Things universe to reveal images, messages, and art that were previously hidden. Retailing for $280 US, this exciting mod makes this great-looking game look even better. And from lighting to the internet, the coders at Stern have clearly been working overtime getting owners of Stranger Things, Jurassic Park, Elvira, and even the Black Knight Sword of Rage scrambling for their Ethernet cables and USB keys to download brand new code releases for all models from the Stern website. Depending on the game, the new codes include everything from new wizard modes, callouts, minigames, and in the case of The Black Knight, Sword of Rage, new music, and Topper Incorporated code. Guess it won't be long now before The Black Knight Topper makes its long-awaited arrival. But we shall wait and see. For The Pinball Show, I'm Ricky, I mean Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. Hello from Dr John and welcome to this week's Pinball Network Spooky Pinball Update. The big news out of the weekend was the live stream with Jack Danger and Scott Denisey playing Rick and Morty on location. Sadly, although this has happened in the past, because I'm in Australia, it's actually in my future. So I can't cover it, but I hope you all enjoyed it. and I know for a fact they fixed up those upper flipper looping shots because the spinner was playing up on the live stream of the morning show that they did. The other big news is the Alice Cooper update, which has loaded a heap of new animations, some rule upgrades, and importantly, fixed that memory dump problem we discussed quite a few updates ago. So Alice Cooper is smooth sailing. Look forward to catching up with you all next week after I've seen that stream. Thanks again. All right, guys, always good hearing from the correspondents. Let's go to the topic that's on everybody's mind. That was kind of the unofficial reveal stream of Rick and Morty pinball, and it was at IO Bar in Madison, Wisconsin. Now, the operator there, Hilton, had his own personal game on location. He invites people in to stream the game, and we get a stream from Deadflip Pinball Streaming, something that was kind of a different perspective of the game. Because the first time we saw the initial stream was out of Spooky. It wasn't kind of up to some of the streaming standards that we've all become accustomed to. And then on the Adult Swim show, it wasn't really any type of a traditional stream that we're used to. So this was kind of the first time we saw the game in all of its glory. And I wanted to pass this off to – let's go to Dennis first. Dennis, I know you had an opportunity to see this stream. Yeah, I watched the VOD last night. I couldn't watch it live, but I did catch about – I watched about 20 minutes of it. Okay. Now, did anything stick out one way or the other regarding the game? Yes. Okay. Would you care to share some of your thoughts? That's what I was going to say. I was wondering what direction you wanted to go in. Right. The good, the bad, the ugly. Okay. Well, I think that this layout is going to be somewhat controversial for people. Uh-oh. No, not an uh-oh. Oh! Oh! No. It's official. The network is shitting all over Rick and Morty. No, no, no, no, no. I like, for example, as I noted from the teaser stream, which I had seen earlier, I really like the atypical lower layout with the pop bumper instead of the sling. I think that gets a lot of action. I think it's well implemented. I think that the ramps are reasonable shots. I think that the horseshoe and the center scoop are pretty easy shots. I think where it looks to me people might get frustrated is that upper flipper in those two shots that I don't know how to describe it. I call it the inner orbit with the spinner and then the outer orbit, which feeds to that portal toy. Yeah, the garage. That does not seem like those shots. Those are going to be difficult shots. Let's put it that way. And given that, I think it's good that you have a mix of difficult and easy shots in a pinball machine. But with all of the upper flipper shots looking to be fairly difficult, I wonder if that's going to put some people off would just be my initial thought. And not accessible also by any other flipper than the upper flipper. And that's where – now I like – see, for me, I like that. I'm okay with that too. I don't want to hobbit. That creates a purpose for that flipper. Exactly. I don't want to hobbit where you've got an upper flipper. All it does is things at the lower flipper. Hey, I don't need your shilliness right now. They're discontinued. I can't sell them. Much like the warp ramp in Star Trek. It's the only flipper that can make that warp ramp shot. Well, this kind of has two of those. It's got that one with the spinner, and it seemed better than I remembered from the teaser stream, but it still seemed very difficult for people to get a clean enough shot for it to actually go all the way around. I did see it done. I don't think I ever saw anyone hit it like twice in a row, though. Yeah, I think the difficulty here is that what you're alluding to is that the upper flipper shot can be a good way and a very satisfying way to have a shot, whether it be a loop, like you said, on Star Trek, that ramp loop. The problem that I think a lot of people are going to have is that if there is an upper flipper shot or shots that is only accessible by that upper flipper, then they better be really good satisfying shots. And I'm not so sure when we've seen the gameplay on this that we can come away thinking that those are satisfying, you know, exclusive third flipper shots. So you mean he's like satisfying in a kinetic way? A flow way, a kinetic way, yes. I mean, for me, like an upper flipper shot that's going to hit an orbit, I want to see something that's a repeatable shot off of that flipper and outside of that orbit. I mean, Beatles is something that it's so fun to get into a rhythm, and you just kind of know what to expect. Now, I wonder at one point if maybe there's one shot too many that's accessible by that upper right flipper, which might be complicating some of the geometry. And it's not because I think it's a poor decision necessarily, but I'm just wondering if there was a design, if there was something that was considered into design where maybe there was an alternate shot, like a single upper right flipper shot. It's impossible to tell. I guess my one concern on the game at that point is that if that shot or those two shots on the left coming from the upper right flipper are more clunky than they are clean, I can see where that would be slightly disappointing in the overall pinball experience for not just myself, but I think for a lot of people. Well, the geometry of the portal shot alone does not lend itself to be flowy or smooth. I mean, it's simple geometry there. I think Dennis would agree with me, is that the ball has to go across the play field in a way that the metal guide guides it back up towards that gobble hole up top. I know it's not a gobble hole, Dennis, but it guides it up and you've got an incline there. So it's at the tip of the flipper, not a lot of power there. I don't ever see that being, I think the satisfying part of that shot is that, damn, I hit it. It reminds me a little bit of when you first sat down and you played Oktoberfest, and that upper right flipper shot to feed that ramp seemed painstakingly frustrating. But then once you had a bunch of games under the belt, it didn't become second nature, because for me, side shots that are going east to west or west to east are never second nature. But it was a lot more attainable for me to hit that shot consecutively after several, several games. So I don't know that anyone that's played this game has had a lot of opportunity to play it several times, other than somebody that's a spooky employee. The sweet spot on that third flipper looks like the stand-up target that lies in between the two main shots of that upper flipper. Dennis, what do you think? The geometry on that loop shot where that spinner lies, it seems like a weird angle. I think it's workable, but it's not the smoothest of a third flipper design that I've seen. Again, Warp Ramp's kind of at the top of that list from Stern Star Trek of just how well and repeatable it's designed. And clearly, even though there were people there, I jumped into more of the middle of the stream. So people have been playing it for a while. and I was seeing clean spinner hits that were going all the way around, which is something that was a struggle on the 15-minute sneak peek stream that I originally saw, but I wasn't seeing anyone repeat it. I agree with you that stand-up, and wait, is that the charge of the MagnaSave? I don't know which shot. That might be the rigged shot. That shot was clearly very easy to do from that upper flipper because that's what people were hitting. I don't know if they meant to hit it, but that's what they were hitting. So that part worked okay. I only, in my 20 minutes, I only saw one person get it into the garage. I think it was Charlie. Got it into the garage from that tip of the flipper going all the way up and then that cool sort of portal effect where the ball is immediately released. So my issue is you can approach it a lot of ways. Are they designed to – they're designed to be flow style shots. And by that, I mean the spinner loop is supposed to cleanly come back and provide you another opportunity from that upper flipper. And if you make the portal shot, it's supposed to almost essentially instantly release a ball down to your left flipper from the garage. So given that, it's designed to be flow. It's supposed to be a flow game. When I look at this game, it's a flow game. It's not a stop-and-go game. because other than locking the ball in the horseshoe, when does it ever really give you an opportunity to sit there and breathe Even the scoop fires the ball back But can a game be something either than the on or off or the black or white of a flow or a stop and go I think this is more in between being a chaotic fast game, but not flowy at all. Like TNA. I don't want to say that it's not impossible. I was just going to say, basically, games fall into a certain percentage of flow shots and a certain percentage of stop-and-go shots. And if you look at what all these shots are meant to be, almost all of them are flow. They're designed to return to a flipper. Now, return to a flipper doesn't mean it drops down an inline and comes to the flipper. You know, an orbit that comes back to the tip of the flipper is a flow shot still. So given that, I look at this and I say, Denise, you designed a flow game. There's next to no stop-and-go in this. Just whether or not it has flow is a different question. Now, you could still say it's a flow design game, but it's clunky. Okay. You could have that. Okay. Look, guys, I saw that damn spinner still get hanging that ball up on that loop. Well, and that's the one thing where you heard Dr. John say that he's, he said, I know for a fact that they addressed that off-kilt spinner and that that's been addressed and everything's working. But I don't know that that was the case. Again, I would assume at this point they would have made the corrections to make sure that that shot is hitting how it's supposed to. So maybe this is just kind of, it is what it is. It's not a deal breaker for me, but again, I'd like to have repeatable loop shots. And to limit the clunk is always beneficial. When I think of the two games, TNA and then you have Rick and Morty, Scott's calling card seems like it is kind of chaotic, hectic, defensive pinball. And you really have to kind of trap up and make your shots. But did you notice on the left ramp, how steep is that ramp? I've not seen it to where I can get a kind of sense a sense of the depth or the steepness of the ramp is that a very steep ramp? It looked like there was a lot of ramp hang-ups as well I noted that here in my notes that left ramp looked like it had a lot of wiggle and coming back especially when Scott was playing it wiggle wiggle coming back it's almost like the plasticity I don't know what it was but it's not a gimme ramp plasticity? I like that The plasticity of the plastic. Absolutely. I didn't find the, I mean, I guess I didn't notice the wiggle wiggle. I didn't find the ramps overly easy, but I did not think they were, you know, J-pop ramps. I'm wondering if there is like, is there a one sure shot in this game where you just know that confidently you feel that you can hit it? Or is this going to be a game that's just going to make you feel a little uncomfortable? And that's not a bad thing necessarily. The horseshoes and the center scoop looked super easy. Okay, fair enough. And the right ramp looked like it didn't matter how hard you hit it. It didn't need a direct hit. It would go up in the right. And the right ramp is definitely easier than the left. And that little right inner orbit, that was a good, cool little shot. Yeah, it's got plenty of easy shots. Plenty. It was apparent to me that everybody that was there was having a really good time. This game is gentler than TNA. And I had also heard Scott confirm that. He said that the game is brutal, but it's not as difficult as TNA is. No, it's obvious from EVA. You could just look at a photo of it and know it wouldn't be that. bad there's not as much stuff in your face well and the ball goes to the back of the two-thirds as well yeah that's and that's exactly the thing that's where's tna's difficulty come from it's the fact that you're actually playing on half the play field exactly even though i have some of these questions that are unanswered until i get my hands on the game i don't think it's ultimately going to matter because this is a unique layout that looks like just a lot of fun it might have its quirks but it looks like it is unique different it's just going to be a lot of fun to shoot. So it's not a deal breaker for me, but I probably will be tweaking my own Rick and Morty just as I have been my last couple of games that I've got. Stranger Things, for example, I've been tweaking that as well. I heard that Eric Pripke, and Eric Pripke, he is writing code for Rick and Morty. He was discussing or hinting at the potential of a TNA dimension that is going to be implemented within the game. And when I heard that, I'm a big fan of Easter eggs on games. And if there's something that pays homage to another release, especially one that I had a great time playing, I think that's such a fun way to kind of celebrate these games, bringing them all together into another game. I think it's great. Yeah, the TNA dimension, I heard he was like, I'm not saying it won't be. He was basically telling us that there will be a dimension that is coded in the future that is very TNA-like. So if it goes, just think of this, Ken and Dennis, if this goes into a dimension where all of a sudden that audio starts playing and you have the lighting of the TNA and it takes you back to, remember the lighting patterns of TNA? Oh, sure. I think that would be phenomenal. That would be really, really cool. That bass hits and it brings you right back to TNA. We also noticed, I mean, just, I don't know if you expect it or not, but I mean, it's early code. There were a couple hiccups where the game needed to be reset during the live stream. yeah i guess that's par for the course on early code and i'm sure it's something that will be addressed or has already been addressed but did you notice that too yeah i saw some of the yeah it locked up a couple times and they're like turn away turn away yeah i did not on my portion where i watched i did not i did not see that uh that said you know most of the time even with early code we don't typically see crashes with early code with other manufacturers do we it's normally that oh well there's this isn't this is shallow i would say the american pinball on uh houdini and oktoberfest out of the gate they had some uh they had some some issues with locking up of code and stuff so i i watched the whole stream i would say that it locked up and they had to reset it four or five times okay which is look if i was hilton if i was hilton there had it on location i'd be a little concerned i mean when you have it on location and that's going to take away money. Did they say why it was locking up? I remember for a long time they were struggling to deal with a memory leak issue that was happening on the P3 Rock stuff for Alice Cooper. Was it that, related to that? I honestly do not know. Because I thought they resolved it with the Alice Cooper game. Yeah, I'm not sure. The good thing is that whenever things like this happen, this goes to the top of these coders' priority list, So very likely they will have these things probably, you know, knocked out in the next week or so. That's kind of the catch-22 when you're talking about streaming a game very early on and doing it live. You don't really know what to expect. I guess organically the viewing audience gets to see what the machine is going to do if it were to be in the home. Manufacture-wise, you know, maybe sometimes it's, do you think it would be an option to consider recording a stream and debuting a game that way? or do you like having the live streaming option on game day? Remember, they already had their controlled where they showed us 15 minutes. Yeah. So they had their, this was a live in the wild. They already did their nice, what I call a controlled stream with a really brief amount of footage a couple weeks ago. So I thought this was, I mean, it is what it is. If they didn't show it and stream it like this, the owners were going to report the lockups anyway. If somehow they didn't already know, I'm sure it'll move to the top of the list. but that being all said the 750 are already sold so in a way it doesn't matter yeah that's true i don't know i i still if i was a manufacturer it would i'd be hard pressed to take what they're calling quote-unquote beta code is i mean i don't know i'm not crazy about the live thing why why i mean it's up to spooky when the code's no longer beta that someone chose to route it in beta was their decision. I mean, again, on the video game side, there are plenty of games that are in early access that are basically paid for betas, and if you want to go online and stream them and play them, you can, but you've got to bear in mind, you might get crashes and stuff, so it's on you. I would say, probably, the code being as it is with the crashes early doesn't concern me as much. It's not necessarily bad gameplay or bad rulesets. It's just a crash that's going to happen and it's going to be fixed. There's no way it doesn't. I did want to ask you guys both this, because we've all streamed before, and we've seen reveal streams, but this was a different kind of a reveal stream that we've seen with Deadfoot Pinball Streaming, and that is you had commentary going on in the background, and it was by Eric Priepke, who, again, who was writing the code on the game. I was wondering if you'd give me some feedback a little bit on what you thought that added to the stream, or if it was your style in general. I've got to say that I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. It reminded me kind of, Ken, what you do with the Flip N Out Pinball stream, where you have this back commentary of maybe the creators when somebody else is playing the game. I very much liked it. There's been a lot of positive feedback from the community in the forums about Pripke being on the mic there instead of somebody playing the game and trying to figure out what was going on, because he was kind of walking people through that. So I was a big fan of that style, and it's kind of what you've been doing for a little bit, Ken. Did you like that, Dennis? I actually was really confused. This is because I was watching the VOD, and when I play back a VOD, I don't start at the beginning because it's usually set-up stuff. So I jumped into the middle, and I couldn't figure out why there was this disembodied voice speaking to me. And I was like, this is giving really detailed rules, but it doesn't sound like Rick or Morty. What's going on? So my answer would be I liked it. I thought that they should have had a face cam on him. So I knew he was the one talking. Otherwise, I liked it. I thought he did an excellent job. Oh, yeah. It was really clear. He was very pleasant, and he took to that role so naturally. It didn't seem like any of the explanation of the game was forced or that he was fumbling on his words like I just did. It just seemed like it flowed and it came naturally, and that was refreshing. I would say the only thing feedback-wise, constructive feedback-wise, was, you know, to Dennis's point, if you're trying to listen to somebody that's off-camera, maybe turn down the main mic that's by the machine just so that you kind of have that off-microphone taking precedent. But, yeah, I was really, really happy with how that turned out, and I appreciated that they did that. Now, we saw at one point during the stream, we saw kind of an add-on that's going to be offered at Pinball Life, and that is the Rick and Morty pinball hinge for the backbox. Did you guys see that? No, didn't see it. Don't care. I care, and I'm already emailing Terry. What a shock. I'm already emailing Terry. Terry, can I be on the list there? They were really cool. For something that nobody's ever going to probably see in my lineup, just to know that it's there would make me happy to grab those. Especially if they come powder-coated. It's like Ricky and Morty by the portal. Oh, I loved it. So the nice thing, yeah, for those that didn't see it, I mean, it's powder-coated purple, as you would get in the Bloodsucker Edition. and it's kind of this laser-cut hinges, and you've got the silhouette of Rick, the silhouette of Morty that's kind of cut through. Then you have the portal that's in the background, and the portal has like an inlaid green kind of translucent material. I thought it was really nicely done. Kind of like by the flipper buttons on the Bloodsucker Edition itself. And did you hear this? Did you guys hear that Charlie announced that people were like, well, how many went out? I think they said 20 or 30. They can build 10 a week. but he did say confirming that they have the parts for the first 90 machines ordered and damn it guys i'm in that window oh that's nice you're in the 86 baby well because did you know that four of those are going to adult swim so you'll be on the second run oh man i'm just kidding man i don't know i don't even know how that works out i don't either all right so another thing i noticed i'm watching the game and i'm i'm hearing the call outs now for me the animations and the call outs are a huge part of this game, and it's Justin Justin Roiland, Justin Justin Roiland, Justin Justin Roiland. I did not notice additional call-outs from any of the other actors, voice actors, within the series. Did you catch anything that I missed? I didn't hear Jerry, everybody's favorite. I didn't hear him. I didn't hear some of them. But I'm okay with it because I think that I could pre-review. A preview. Is that a preview, Dennis? A pre-review? Is it a preview? I would think that the call-outs and the animation on this game, with David David Van Es animation, A+. I don't need any of the other voice actors. I really don't. It'd be cool to kind of have Summer or somebody chiming in, but no. Oh, man, I disagree. Really? I want that whole show. Yeah, the whole experience. Rick and Morty, obviously, that is the main attraction. But there are so many good characters that I want to hear outside of Justin Justin Roiland. Wasn't Justin Justin Roiland the only one announced to be doing custom call-outs? I believe that's what I heard. Then why is this even a discussion point? Because I think at some point they might be able to add on additional voices. Yeah, and at some point they could go back and redo the Star Wars pinball machine and get Mark Dick Hamill to do it. No, let's just move on from that. Let's move on from that. Hey, Dennis is here in case we missed him last week. This is what you get with Dennis. I love it. Right. I was warned what I was going to get with you. Oh, my gosh. so I'm getting tag-teamed here. Hey, Dennis, you'll love to hear about this then. You heard of Ron Kruseman that's clear-coating some of the playfields? Nope. Do you care? Nope. Of course not. No, Ron Kruseman is known in the pinball community as being like the clear-coat guy. You get a brand-new Mirco play field, some of these guys will spend an additional $1,000 to send them to Ron Kruseman so that they are properly coated. And this came out, and as a distributor, I can say, general distributor here, that there are some caveats here, people. So if you want your Rick and Morty playfield clear-coded by Ron Kruseman, there are a couple of things you have to take into consideration. Number one, it's going to cost more money. Number two, it is going to take some planning. I think that this happened by the request of a customer, and then he aired it on Pennside. I could be wrong, but then everybody was like, I want my playfield clear-coded. So Kruseman will do it, but it's going to take money, and it could significantly delay the production of your machine. There are shipping costs, packing costs, there's clear coating costs, and I think it's probably going to be upwards of, all of a sudden, another $600 to $1,000 if I had to guess. Are they working with Spooky to let Cruisman clear the playfields? Well, not all of them. I don't understand that. Not all of them, no. Because at the end of the stream, wasn't there a big deal made about how clean and how undimpled the playfield was after two, three hours of play? That's what Hilton was saying on the forums. He said over 200 plays on this thing, and I don't see a dimple yet. Now, we do know that Hilton, he's a supporter of spooky pinball. So if that's the case, then maybe you don't need it done. But there are some people that just want the best of the best. So spooky is facilitating that. Okay, so they take their manufactured playfields that are already cleared. They go to somebody that's in the private sector to have it re-cleared. So what happens then if you've got cleared? Does that void your warranty for your play field? I mean, that just seems like a risky. I would think it would. Yeah. But then again, if they're facilitating it, then maybe they're standing behind Kruzman's work. I'm not sure. I don't know all the details. I know that it is a possibility. You may want to contact your distributor, or if you bought direct from Spooky, contact them with any questions you may have. I know Kruzman's got a good reputation in the community. I've owned a game in which he was cleared, that he had cleared, and it was the Flintstones, and it was awesome. It just, I don't know, this kind of boggles my mind. I'm not going to get it. Are you getting it on yours, Ken? No, no, I'm not going to. But listen, the upgrades on this game, and with all due respect to Spooky Pinball, I mean, you're going to end up being $9,000, $10,000 into a Spooky Pinball. Any pinball machine I can't put myself that far into. All part of the plan. Yeah, if I'm going to back myself off of getting extra, like, re-cleared play field, I'm going to save that money for certain, for certain. And we can't end this discussion on Spooky Pinballs, Rick and Morty, without talking about the new animation of the Plumbus, right? The tilt warnings. I did see that. That was pretty genius. I like it. The animation that David Van Es did was instead of a plumb bob, it's a plumbus, and it looks like it's in the inside of the cabinet of this machine, and when you shake it, it don't – I don't even know the word that's appropriate. Dongles? Jiggles? Around? It sways. Why is that thing such a – An uncomfortable squeamish thing, right? Yeah. Very personal. Dennis, did you see – do you have a plumbus? I saw it. Do you have one? I saw it. All right. Let's sum this up because we're going to transition over to something else. But all in all, from my perspective, I thought the stream was fun. It was evident there that everybody was having a great time. Some people were having better times than I've ever seen them have on any other pinball stream, which was pretty fun to watch. And the gameplay makes me more excited to kind of get mine. I just want to play the game before I can pass thoughts. And at this point, I think it's just natural for me to kind of pick out what I think are some shortcomings because when I get in front of the game, I won't be let down. But I'm looking forward to it. Looks like a blast to me. I can't wait to get mine. Same here. Dennis? What? So all things pinball, all things Rick and Morty, we'll get out of there. Stern, I heard you talk about this on the midweek show, Zach, and that is the UV kit that's an available upgrade from Stern Pinball. To add on to the Stranger Things Pro Premium and LE models, it's a $279 upgrade, which gives you a replacement apron, which is specific to the Pro or the Premium LE models. There's no trading your aprons around. It also gives you a set of plastics, and it gives you the UV lighting kit that mounts on the ramps, which gives you a whole different element when you enter the upside down. That's a nice intro. You like that? So Craig Bobby guest starred on the midweek show. You guys had an at-length discussion on it. Shake and bake. I would like to get Dennis's opinion because obviously him coming in for the first time today. We're excited about it, but I want to get some feedback in regards to that Stranger Things. Dennis, do you think that this is considered a cash grab by Stern Pinball? Do you think it's just a progression of a mod that is in-house and everybody should be lucky to have the option to purchase? Or are you thinking completely outside of the box with something else? Well, I guess my – is it – interesting. Interesting. So is it a cash grab, I guess, was your first question. The short answer would be yes. It was clearly designed to be added already. The holes are there on the plastics to support this. So it was always not to mention the fact that the art exists. So they always intended to roll this out as a separate add on. Sure. Do I think that's OK? Yes, I do. Though personally, I think that LE buyers should receive it for free. I would agree. I think this is something that would have made the LE even that much more special. and to have this in any of the models upon launch, I think would have generated so much more discussion and additional interest in the pin because there's no argument about it. It's a game changer in regards to the lighting and the effects. And with the upside down being such a big part of the series and of the pinball machine, to be able to see it transform in front of your eyes and make it look like you're looking at a whole other play field, it's pretty impressive. Now you're going to hear people that are going to be upset, right? We had this in the video game side. and people have talked about this in regards to code updates and possible futures for pinball and the idea of paid downloadable content paid DLC as it's commonly referred to and one of the things that happened early on when DLC started to become more and more prevalent in video games is the justification that developers had was well you need to pay extra for these add-ons because it takes additional development time we're dedicating more resources to do it and a lot of people maybe kind of begrudgingly accepted that that said then they started to notice that dlc was coming that you had to pay for and it was already on the discs sorry on the cds exactly and then people are like whoa whoa whoa whoa you clearly already have the dlc in mind you actually already made it it's actually on the disc i went and bought 60 for from best buy why do i have to pay you extra money to get an unlockable code that then just allows me to play it off of the disc right and they're and they're like for you well maybe not but then the world's space balls that's what they would have said and that is what i will say so in regards to this and that decision because i've seen it on the video game side i'm not appalled or shocked by it and the decision obviously to say well maybe you don't want to spend you know we'd have to have added 280 or they would have added 280 to the game if this came with it and the game was already at the price it was so it makes sense not to include it for those that might not care i think that's fine though when it comes back to talking about le models with stern my personal philosophy is any of these manufacturer mods should be with the les and even if you can't have them initially they should be offered to the original purchasers right at no cost that includes toppers toppers shooter rods shaker motors things that aren't always in the le models and to me i find that a little odd because they're already paying such a premium profit only price for that for that additional stuff because there's no other thing there you know the cost to make the le is the same as it is the premium so it to me i draw the line don't you add with your chili no i mean there's not it's not the same cost relatively speaking it's close enough i think to where if you're going to throw in a 280 mod which did not cost 280 to make that it not going to make or break the success of the le model i I think where it tempting is that anybody that most likely in on that LE model probably isn going to think twice about spending another to make their LE be able to unlock everything that's already in the game. Then just add $280 to the LE price from the get-go and then send it to them. Because imagine the difference psychologically. It's like, oh, Stern really loves me. Look, three months later, they've sent me this additional lighting kit. But what about people that want the option to have this installed from a factory? True, true. I mean, I guess it's supposed to be like a 20-minute install. We heard Mike Vinikour talk about that on the stream. What do you think about this? Let's say a Stern LE comes out with every single option, but instead of you having the ability to add to your pinball machine at the factory, you would have the ability to remove something from a game. Does that make any sense? No. Manufacturing-wise, it doesn't. Oh, God. It's a headache, right? But you hope that they forgot to take off your UV kit. But I think a good question could be to you guys, I'll pose this to you, do you think that Stern would have done better by increasing the price $1,000 and having all of the additional mods on there, or do you think it's better that people that want that limited edition model do have choices to purchase them later? I can only speak for myself. The LE model is not a model that I am in at purchasing, so I really couldn't care less if it's $1,000 more or $1,000 less. It's not a model that I look at seriously because I've personally priced out of that tier, so I can't really speak for them. I think it's fine for them to. I don't think it would be a problem that they raise the price. LE models are for whales. That's what that is for. It's trying to land someone who has more money than cents, and they can spend it. and so in that regard because it's about people trying to show it's about showboating it's about trying to show off then i think that you can get away with it oh no i definitely not have ray i definitely would not have raised the pro and the premium prices by 300 and included this light kit okay letting them make that decision makes sense le's though do whatever you want to them i was also wondering man on that with the release of the uv kit it came out so soon after they had released the game, it almost seems like there might have been an effort to try to include it, because I think there was a small price increase that had happened recently. I'm just wondering if they just simply ran out of time. I thought the price went up another hundred on Stranger Things. Yeah, I thought it did too. Jurassic Park. Right. So I'm wondering if the intent was there. It's just to get in their manufacturer, to get that on the line and to get it out. They just kind of miss putting it in, but they didn't want to. They already had the money and the R&D into it, and they wanted to make sure that it was still able to be sold maybe that's why the le guys aren't getting it because they just i don't know there's a lot of speculation on that that's a that's a i am clearly they they've had it in mind for a long time because the art's there the mounting holes are there so yeah i think you got a good point i think i think originally i would not be surprised if they had hoped to it would always be a it was always going to be a standalone mod but in my view but i think they would have found it preferable to have been able to announce it as ready and available when the game came out But I think with that rush to actually get some on location just in people's homes just before Christmas, that was their priority because it was such a first for pinball. Because it seems like with Stranger Things especially, the feelings are so mixed on the game. And I'm wondering if this mod does the game any favors. I mean, obviously it does from a cosmetic and lighting standpoint, but just from the reputation of the game, I wonder if it sways anybody in one camp or the other based on their acceptance of the title alone. yeah and i have not uh i've only played one game of stranger things so i i don't have a strong opinion of it yet i've spoken with some people who've been playing it locally and you know it's a mix there's some people that really like it really like where the code's at already on the game like the shots and there are others that are i don't really know anyone who hates it uh i do i know a couple people that are vocal about it and it frustrates some people they don't like the demogorgon shot but really when you think about it attack for mars most of these same competitive players i play with they would never shoot for the saucer because it was ridiculous death and and annoying so they don't they love attack from mars but they won't ever play the center you'll hear on on like on other popular podcasts uh the comments of well the people that like it are the people that are that own it so that's why they're Win Schilling it because they own the game but it's like they they're not Win Schilling it they're they own the game because they do like it so you kind of just proved my point it's like what are you talking about that doesn't make any sense I don't know. I get I get a cool pinball podcast and you're not allowed to like anything. I think that especially when you're referring to like a pin side top 100, I mean, by no means should that be the the cliff notes to what's good and what's bad. I mean, everything is so personal. You can't tell anybody what they like more than something else. I got some heat for that for. Well, you know, everyone's going to have their own opinion. And Zach is as entitled as anyone else to have their own. That said, when you do come out on a podcast and say that this game that's not even at 1.0 code is better than the entire top ten of Pinside, people are going to think you're saying it for no other reason than to either be controversial or to show. I didn't say it was better. I said that I enjoy it more. I'd rather have it more than – yeah. Yeah, that sounds basically like you're saying it's better. Okay. Better is a different word. Better to you, right? Better is a different word. Objectively. Yes, but it's like a synonym, so I think it's okay. Objectively, Metallica is a classic great game. I don't like that game. It's not even 10 years old. How is it a classic? Check in five years and tell me what it is. Objectively, Mr. Mini. I think it's one of the most popular or at least the biggest selling games that Stern has had. It's no longer in production. Let's take Metallica. That's the definition of classic. So Ghostbusters is a classic then. Well, how many years then does it have to do? 25 like an antique? I think it's got to be 10 years. I would probably say, yeah. Zach, probably about 25 would be the definition of a classic. Wow. Really? Man. We've got decades of pinball and you guys want to give things that are two years old classic status? Yeah, but let's be fair. The stuff back in the 60s. Hey, we got Iron Man Vault happened twice already. It's an instant classic. The 50s and 60s wasn't really pinball, right? Oh. Zach. We're going to pause for station identification on the pinball show. Do we actually have flippers? You've made 10 people mad with pinball. I know. Nicholas Baldridge is like, you son of a bitch. Only two people mad with your attack on the 50s, but once you got into the 60s and got away from the gobble holes, that's where the rage started to go up. Going back to Stranger Things for a second, this is the thing that is happening to me with this game. I genuinely enjoy the layout. I like it. I love the theme. And I'm wondering if my feelings, because this is a pin that I would rather have over a lot of pins, too. Is it every pin in the top ten of pins? I'd know, but it's like it's a solid pin for me. Am I still in a honeymoon phase? Yeah, probably. But the theme is so strong. Now, I thought to myself the other day and you use Metallica as an example. Metallica, you know, I listen to Metallica back in the day. It's not a huge theme for me. And in the game, I can take it or leave it, to be honest. But if you took Metallica as a theme and you put that on the existing layout for Stranger Things, what I feel so strongly and so positively about the game, I don't know that I really would. I think this is one of those instances where the theme plays a heavy role for me. in the way in which I enjoy the game, and that's okay. Because for me, it's about a pinball experience. I don't have to break it down to one singularity and then focus on that to make judgment on a game. So I don't know. Lighting matters, sound matters, art matters. All of these things in 2020 matter to people. Right, right. Except for Dennis. He doesn't care. That means I'm Win Schilling stranger things? Then I couldn't disagree more. But I do enjoy this game a lot, and I would recommend it, especially to those that are familiar with the theme. I think it makes a big difference for you. If I have to hear, though, any more listeners, if I have to hear this is just nothing but an attack from Mars 2.0, it is nothing like, it's not even close to the layout of attack from Mars. It's got similarities. We're both getting this. It is a classic prototypical fan. You cannot say that it is nothing like attack from Mars when it visually, geometrically clearly is. Name three shots that are. That would be the majority of the shots. I want to hear three shots that are the same as Attack from Mars. Now, I'm not saying it's an identical. It's not a Shrek on top of a family guy. I mean, let's not be ridiculous. But you can argue that the entrance path of the two orbits in the center shot are in the same geometrical placements as they were on Attack from Mars. Now, the feed returns are different. Well, then the shot's different. I agree. But you can't say that it's totally different when 50% of the route of the ball is the same, Zach. No. You can't. This will be where people will say that you're being ridiculous. Yeah, and if I'm the only one that's going to illuminate some sense here, then I'm fine with that. The left orbit, guess what? Then it's f***ing 2.0 for every other game because the left orbit's in the same spot. The difference is that the left orbit on Stranger Things goes to a right ramp. That's more John Papadiuk than it is freaking Brian Eddy. Like the internal right orbit. Does it do anything like it on Attack from Mars? Go to the left orbit? No, it doesn't do that. The right orbit goes up and comes back out the same damn path. There's nothing the same except for a central feature. That's it. In this one, the ramp comes down. I would say that the entrance for most of the shots are essentially in the same placements as they were for Attack from Mars. That's fine. Eddie mixed it up by where the ball would come back to the flipper for the flow basis. But by his own admission, he looked at his Medieval Menace and Attack from Mars for determining how to make his Stranger Things layout. So you're basically trying to contradict him at the same time when he said that was his inspiration for this layout. Inspiration is fine. I heard it on the Flip N Out Pinball stream. Elvira has more similarities to Attack from Mars than Stranger Things by a long shot. It just does. Elvira has more similarities to Attack from Mars than Stranger Things by a long shot. Yes, now that is a typical fan layout with understandable paths. The ball lock in the house, there's no similar shot to that. You could say, oh, well, it goes into the ramp for the ball lock, so it's kind of in the same place. But the crypt, the mausoleum spot, there's nothing like that. Yeah, that might be a little bit of a stretch there. Attack from Mars, there's a scoop there. There's a scoop there. They're both fan layouts. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. I'm saying it's more fanny compared to an Attack from Mars than Stranger Things. Stranger Things is the fanniest of fans. You can't look at that and say it's not a fan unless you don't know what the definition of fan layout is. No, I get that it's a fan, but to say that all fans are Attack from Mars is ridiculous. Well, I think where the issue lies, a lot of people look at the layout and they know that those shots, the entrant points are in familiar spots, and they just assume it's another Attack from Mars or Medieval Madness. But it's very clear when you play the game that it doesn't play like that. So I think a lot of it's first impression without hands-on experience, which kind of skews people's opinions. That's what I'm saying. That's accurate. My issue is everybody saying, oh, it's bullshit. It's 2.0. Everybody having a voice and that being okay. But when I say it's different, everybody's like, because you're stupid. Well, no. It's the same argument. Zach, gee. You're raising valid concerns, Zach. But the problem is your response to it is to go and take the opposite stance and basically say, This is in no way – this isn't even – like Attack from Mars had no influence on this. It doesn't look or feel in any way, and it just comes across as being ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. So it's okay if they argue, but not okay if I give an equal argument. Well, because your response is to basically be just as inaccurate as they are because you're mad at them. I said it's total fan layout. I said that. And I'm with you. The entrance points are very fan layout because guess what? That's geometry. I agree with it. But it's not that they're fan layout. They're kind of lined up in where you would expect them on Attack from Mars or Medieval Madness. Yeah, the entrance points of the ramps, the entrance points of the center shot, the entrance points of the orbit, those are basically, I don't want to say exactly because I didn't get out a ruler and check, but they're kind of in the same spot. What about Munsters? What about Iron Man? What about, I mean. There are lots of fan layouts. People love them. Exactly. Lots of fan layouts. But they could say the same about that. Right now, everybody's just jumping on it because it's a Brian Eddy title. It's going to stand out more. Exactly, because it's Brian Eddy. It's going to stand out more. It's just how it is. Well, I think the expectations with Brian was that, okay, he's been out of pinball for so long. He's going to come back, and he's going to stun us because arguably the three pins that he had done prior with the shadow attack from Mars and medieval madness are considered some of the top pins of all time. So when you have something that is familiar looking and you've got an assumption that it's an attack from Mars or Medieval Madness 2.0, I think a lot of it's just confusion and maybe a little bit of a letdown that it wasn't a completely different design or was something that was out of the ordinary. There are plenty of people that are upset that he didn't do Shadow 2.0. Right. That's what they wanted. I would have been okay with that. I know you would have been okay with that. I think it would have been. We both do. I think this was a smart play for him for his first game coming back. I agree. It was, hey, what are my top games? Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars. And those two games are more similar than dissimilar in terms of layout. Agreed. But you got Stranger Things. So he did that, leaned into, my favorite expression, leaned into those entrance points, mimicking those games. He changed up the returns, notably changed them up. It plays differently. And the rules. We're not even talking about the rules. And the rules of the game are different than going for Total Nuclear Annihilation and Attack from Mars is. They have some similarities, but yeah. Yeah, no, they do actually. There are only so many things. You have to make certain shots be – he still likes to let you shoot the thing three times and move because it's easy to understand. And some of that you can put on Lonnie and Mike and Brian for collaborating on the code. But, I mean, Metallica is kind of like that where you do a shot a few times and then move on. Oh, sure. There are a lot of games like that. Oh, yeah. No, there's lots of – there's only so much you can do. You could think about, well, there's infinite possibilities that you could do on a play field. In a way, it's true, except that how many of those won't feel good or work well? If you have two flippers, you have so many angles. You've got to throw all those out. I do want to tell the listener, for those who own or those who operate Stranger Things pinball by Stern Pinball, there is, for the premium LE owners, an adjustment that has just been put on pin side. And I think it's like a diagram adjustment from Stern Pinball that shows how to tune in that diverter on the left ramp to lock balls to that magnet. So if anybody's having a difficult time, I was having some difficulties on my LE, I'm going to have to go in and tune that up. But they give you a step-by-step process on kind of how to do that to the best of their ability. Do you guys know what's going on on February 22nd? Have you marked this day on your calendar? Have you started the countdown on your app or computer? I think I know what you're talking about. That's the day where Zach can steal a Pinburgh ticket from someone who really wanted to go. If you remember last year, I think, did you do that live? You were trying to steal a Pinburgh ticket? I remember that. I didn't think it would work, but it worked. And it did. And how did you rank in Pinburgh? How did that turn out for you? I ended up being an undecided. Undecided, right? Yeah, so undecided. But I don't know if I'm going to do it again this year or not. I'm kind of excited. I would say probably don't do that, man. Why not? What was the point? Is it just the competition to try to see if you can get the ticket? No, I really wanted to go, but the timing and stuff, everything fell at the same time. It was a mess. So I chose not to go, and I'm such a freaking giving guy that I gave all of my money. I did not get a refund. I gave it all back to the Replay Foundation. So I assume they just take that money. I sure as hell didn't get a check cut back to me. You had it? And I opened it up to somebody that was excited to go to the show and thought, you know, maybe just maybe somebody was going to be so nice to drop out so that I could enter in. You know, I try to contribute where I can, guys. It's all about excitement and excitement. There's a big buzz around the Haggis playfields that we discussed on episode one. But you were contacted by somebody from Haggis Pinball just recently, Zach. Yeah, Damien reached out to me, the CEO, president, founder, I guess. I don't know what his official title is. He texted me and said, hey, heads up. he heard our discussion. He didn't say whether he liked it or hated the discussion, but he brought it up and said, you may be thinking of polycarbonate that could yellow, because I thought that that might have been a thing we consider long-term. He said, but acrylic actually does not yellow. He can confirm that it does not yellow. So I'm appreciative of Damien reaching out to kind of clarify that. So listeners, acrylic, to the best of Damien's knowledge, does not yellow. You're really hung up on that. You really want to say how – it's a smooth ball, so what's skidding going to do on a flat surface? Create more friction. Okay. And so friction generates heat. So what's the – Which then generates – Will melt the acrylic and the ball will fall through. Why is it – Does it unclear coat? Does it unclear coat? i think that if i would do if he could if damian could it wouldn't hurt to do kind of the spooky playfield test where he's actually having a ball fired onto the playfield and then it then it does all that but it's still going to mostly be rolling even if you do it that way but do you think the physics is correct though when you hit the flipper the ball is not in rolling motion until the perpetual speed catches up oh no no yeah yeah yeah that was i think you're right especially when balls are being launched initially, that they can skid instead of roll. And it may be fine on the acrylic. I just don't know. Yeah, I don't see why that would be any more of an issue than it is when it skids on clear. I've never heard people complaining about the ball, unless the ball's rusty, the ball scratching through clear. The ball isn't the problem. A lot of times it's the debris coming up. So another thing about the test would be about what happens to acrylic when, like, coil dust and stuff is on. That's what you could have focused on. Well, he took – Acrylic is – acrylic lends itself well to being able to buff out scratches and surface scratches. Yes, and that's the thing is just like you can with clear, you can buff that stuff out. But acrylic is – from what I have heard, I've not done a lot with acrylic. The thing is I think we've seen acrylic before. Isn't that what Electra's play field is? See, I didn't know if Electra was acrylic or not. See, I wasn't sure if it was acrylic or if it was another form of plastic, but it looks pretty good. It looks pretty good 35 years later. Clear windows can haze. That's what I worry about. But polycarbonate is next. Yeah. And I think just from what I know about acrylic and polycarbonate, polycarbonate and acrylic are extremely durable. Polycarbonate is more durable than acrylic, but polycarbonate tends to scuff and scratch where it can't be buffed out, where acrylic is a more clear surface that can take on not as much as polycarbonate can as far as durability, but you can buff out those scratches. What's Lexan then? Lexan is like a polycarbonate. Okay. So Lexan is flexible, but it'll scuff and scratch a lot easier than acrylic would. But because of the flexibility in polycarbonate or Lexan, you'll see that in bulletproof glass and that sort of thing because it can give, whereas acrylic will crack easier than polycarbonate, but it's able to be polished better, like, cosmetically. Yeah, I've used Lexan to replace plastics before. For those of you who have not listened to the Eclectic Gamers podcast, Innocent Toady had a really good discussion about the innovation that Haggis is pursuing over there on their play field. So I would suggest that you go listen. I don't have a lot to add. I think this will work, and I think it will play fine. I hope so. Now, there was a rumor on the street that I heard reported that actually might have been false, and that is CGC is shipping Medieval Madness Royal Editions, which is the new edition with the topper, the creme de la creme. As a distributor, do you have any information on when I can expect one if I were to order one? Yes, Ken. Yes, Dennis and listeners of the show. I can tell you that Medieval Madness remakes are shipping the classics, that is, and the special editions. I think they're probably close to shipping all of those that have been ordered. Remember, there is a limited run of Medieval Madness remakes, and we don't know the distribution of them, but there's only a certain number of classic, special editions, and royal editions. But I am here to tell you that it has been reported on another podcast that royals were shipping. That's a false statement. Actuality, royals are not shipping. So that is the truth. They actually seem a little bit of a delay. The delay, waiting for parts, I'm thinking we're going to not see Royals start to roll into customer homes and locations for another month to month and a half, unfortunately. Wow. Any idea what the delay is? Yeah. Parts. See, this is the thing that kind of disappoints me, and I guess it's inevitable, but CGC tends to have these delays, and it's like you always think that you're right on the cusp of getting that game that you're waiting for, and then there's a delay. And if it's parts, what can you do, right? It's out of their hands. It's just frustrating. Maybe it's delayed because they're making alien pinball. Yeah. That's another rumor on the street, right? There was another, the same podcast, was reporting that CGC is rumored to be working on aliens. I can tell you guys that I have not heard anything of the sort, and very likely, well, they're not making aliens, guys. All right. People actually believe that they were Yes I don I always thought that was the funniest thing I could never fathom it I don get it But people hear something they get excited and they like oh my God I so glad there people out there getting us all the rumors and the truth No, it's just not true. But there's people that are excited because American Pinball is now going to bring two games to TPF this year, right? Instead of just one. Yeah. Tell us about the two games, Zach. Tell us. Clear up more false statements. I'm so happy that we have a distributor on this show. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Half of this isn't even distribution stuff. Like, if you're in pinball media and you talk and you're trying to figure out what's going on for your shows and to relay actual true statements, then you just run into the truth. No. To my knowledge, there's only going to be one title at TPF, and that is very much the rumored title is Hot Wheels. That's what we've all been hearing. I can say that American Pinball has not confirmed nor denied Hot Wheels to distributors. But if we're going off of rumors, we could see one title there. So no, there's no plan to my knowledge of seeing two different titles. I don't even think that makes any sense. And we may even see the rumored Title III from American Pinball sooner than TPF rather than on TPF. And I don't think you're going to see a plethora of games that are available to buy. I don't, I just, I'm not seeing that. I'm even hearing that this next title may be a little bit different than what we've seen from American Pinball in the past. a little bit more competitive to that operations standpoint. So I'm not quite sure how to interpret that statement. To me, it sounded like you were saying that it might be different than the other two in that it may actually sell? No. Or there ain't nothing in it, Dennis. That would be the other way to interpret it. Well, he's talking about like operators and stuff, so it would be like, well, if they would finally buy one. I have an area operator who really – he played Houdini and Dialed In at the same show, and he liked Houdini a lot more. But he was like, I just can't take the chance. So he took the chance on Dialed In? Well, I think what happened is an area collector bought the Dialed In, and then he just routed it for him for a while, and they split the profits. I see. As I say, Houdini's got more of a thing than Dialed In. Yeah, but all the competitive players are like, Dialed In, Dialed In, luller, luller. It seems like such an important release, right? Does this make or break the pinball division? And now you've got kind of some staff changes over there. As far as I know, the redemption game, Flying Dutchman, I haven't seen that popping up anywhere else. I don't know if that's there. It's not exactly flying off the shelf? Is that what you're saying? I don't know that it made it out of prototype status. This is a company that I think has a lot to offer, and I'm real appreciative of the staff there, Joe Balcer and Josh Kugler and everybody there. um i i just don't know that they can afford or absorb something else that isn't uh at least a semi popular title i don't understand i mean i'll be i guess i'll be a little more blunt in this in that i think i think american pinball needs a hit i think they need it otherwise i don't see how long they can again we don't know their production numbers but from what we can do from proxy data based off of pin side collection amounts these games aren't selling a thousand units. So how long can a company of this size sustain without that? And I think that at some point, the investors involved with it are going to be like, this is not worth continuing to dump assets into. So that's my concern that they need something that's just really popular. And it feels like they're always getting a few of the pieces there, but not all of them. And the biggest thing is one that I know Zach and I have spoken about several times. And it seems like where they drop the ball the most is not going with a proper licensed theme yeah yeah and from the outside looking in i can agree i'm totally with you dennis i think they need it's a thing of need now they need a good title they need a good seller and uh i don't know if this next one will be it or not because i've never seen it i've not heard of it i don't know but they do need they need to hit it yeah people like the gameplay people like the rules they just need i think the theme's it i think that's the biggest thing if they had something and i'm afraid hot wheels if that's true that's probably not it i'm sorry and as a distributor i really need some sales so selfishly you need some income there huh i don't know it's nice to hear though look the pinball show listeners we might not be trying to bring you the most exclusive news because quite frankly there's a lot of news organizations out there in pinball that do a pretty damn good job of that but We will be here to clean up any bullshit that you're being fed. Why have there been so much inaccuracy lately, do you think? Is that just the traditional Twit podcast, special one lit? Let me just get my sheets of reasons why. Oh, this sounds like old dot matrix paper. You know what? I think some of it is just kind of careless reporting on stories, and it's just the way that I look at it. Listen, it's very easy for me to somebody mention something to me and then throw it on the air for the sake of talking points. But is it responsible for me to do so? And not always can you fact check. I understand that. But at that point, maybe you kind of take a step back and wonder what you're doing. Rumors are fun for a lot of people. People like hearing about rumors. Yeah, sure. I mean, well, you know, one of the biggest things is there's not really on the by and large on the podcasting side, there's not really anything that follows a journalistic standard. They're not. Of course, we're not journalists. So given that you don't have that same sort of rigor that you would expect from traditional print journalism, for example, I've always sort of chalked it up to there's probably a desire for a news show to some degree, but they're not as fun to do. Isn't it more fun to speculate and talk about rumors? It is. It is fun to speculate. Yeah, I mean look earlier. Ken wanted to talk about getting other voice actors for Rick and Morty even though there's nothing said about doing anything like that. But it's fun to speculate. Right. Right, speculating is one thing, but if I said, hey, you know, I heard that there are negotiations. Right, two more of these actors are coming on board, and it's going to be in the next code update because somebody emailed me that. Like, I would never do that. That's just me. I always think that rumors are fun, but it's just whenever somebody says rumors are fun, we're just making speculation, that's fine. But then don't stand on a high horse whenever you get something right every ten times and think, I'm the one bringing you the news, the reports. That's the truth. That's the other thing. Ten out of ten. It was a perfect call. Then that's when I'll call your bullshit. It's like, no, okay. You get lucky every now and then. Well, remember, even a stopped watch is right twice a day. Yes, you've got to take the bad with the good, and here's your bad. And God knows we've all taken the bad with the good, especially lately. So, I mean, I don't have any issues talking about coming back to the other side. What it comes down to, I think, just going back to American Pinball, is their next release at some point is going to have to be trending up. Dennis did you miss this segment nope come one come all come to the shit show that's called pinball market trends sponsored by the pinball show oh really really I will take him to custody court if I need to yeah I'll have them come do evaluations see how pinball market trends responds to me when I'm bouncing the ball It's all good. I feed him good. I do my research. I do my polynomial analysis. No, you do not. So, caseworker, you can leave now. You can leave. I helped make this baby. Yeah, polynomial analysis. Yes, I'm real high on your list of rigor there. Yeah, I don't do that at all. What I do is observational data here says the trading offer this week is Black Rose by Bally back in 1992. You guys like this game? A little Black Rose action? Brian Eddy programmed it I do not like it I don't like it I think the cannon shot sucks too I just don't care for it I'm not a huge fan of it it's ok as pirate themes go it's probably in the top 3 there's only like 3 pirate themed games whatever turning out this week is Black Rose and if you're going to find a nice one out there it's $3,000 look it's up to $3,500 if you don't want that cannon looking like Dennis' plumbus then you're going to have to pay the money and the money is $3,000, $3,500 on the secondary market. Got a dirty little plumbus there. Sorry. That's Black Rose. Go on. Tell me more about the $3,500 C tier WMS game. C tier does be... C plus tier. It's not B tier. This ain't no Shadow or BST. This ain't no Whitewater. No, it's not. I'm okay with that. Isn't Whitewater Nailist? It's hovering. It's hovering. Maybe A-. A-. I wouldn't disagree. I like your categorical approach there. If that's a C-level, then what is Sega's GoldenEye? Because, my friends, that is trending up as well. GoldenEye's awesome. I love that ball lock into the satellite. That is cool. When it works, yeah. That is really cool. Well, yeah. No. When it doesn't work, it doesn't count, Zach, because that would be silly. Yeah, well, you can talk about the crotch magnet wear all you want, but with the recent release of the Color DMD version of this game, This is a little Sega game that a lot of people like that don't typically like Sega games. GoldenEye on the secondary market, if you're going to find a nice one, then you are going to pony up at least $3,500. And I can tell you, audience, that they do not come up very often. If you find yourself a nice, clean, crotched GoldenEye, you better jump on it. Oh, that didn't sound good. I would rather have GoldenEye than Black Rose. I was just going to ask you for the same dollar amount, which game would you take? I would take GoldenEye myself. I would take, without a doubt, undoubtedly Black Rose. Oh. Absolutely. It's a better shooter. You'd probably chrome it, too. It'll be like a $7,000 game. Well, that's what he'd ask for. It'll just sit there forever. I don't know if you can chrome a Black Rose. Maybe he has one. That's why it's trending up. You know how that goes. If we dog it enough, he'll buy it out of spite like Popeye. Oh, stop it, you two. My Popeye's having resetting issues now. Oh, man. Oh, what a shock. Normally, you take the boards out of Popeye to put in something good, so I don't know what you're going to salvage to fix it. It's the theater game, right? It is. It's the NBA fast break of the wide body. I don't know if I like all this ganging up on pinball market trends, damn it. On the other side of things, unfortunately, trending down this week. Oh, no. I almost went until macho there. It was really bad. Don't ever do it again. How about I talk to you like this, Dennis? Oh, God, I just love letters. don't do that. Oh, man. If I had four hands, I'd have them all on her. I know. My Plumbus is wilting. Hey, yo, is it? Oh. Move on, please. There's a cream for that. Oh. Is there? For Wilton Plumbus. Turning down this week is Stern's Tron Legacy. Oh, David Dennis won't like that. He will not like that because that's the only pin he's got. And it's turning down there, Double D. Turning down so much so that if you want a really nice one, Dennis, Ken, if you want a really beautiful one, home use only, guess what? Gone are the days of 8,000. Gone are the days of 7,000. Ladies and gentlemen, we're at a $6,100 to $6,500 window of Tron Legacy. It's true. Numbers don't lie. I only report the facts here on the pinball shows, pinball market trends. There is one sitting right now. Oh, you know what? Hmm. I'm smelling something, guys. Smells like a deal of the week. Buy, buy, buy! Oh, what's the coupon code? Yeah, no, not coupon code. You can go on Pinside right now and find yourself a Tron Legacy Pro by Medicine Man outside of Spring Branch, Texas. Medicine Man, he is selling an original home use only, sales with paperwork. Unboxed it. Get this, listeners. August 9th, 2019. It was last year here. Less than 100 plays. It's got $1,200 worth of mods. this thing is a beauty. Guess what the price is. Anybody guess? Guessing? Guessers? $6,500. I forgot what pin you were talking about. Oh, God, Ken. What pin was it? Tron Legacy. It's still Tron. Oh, Tron Legacy. $1,200 worth of mods. It only has not even 100 plays. It was unboxed this summer. Any guess? $7,500. Yeah, that's what everybody would have thought. It's $6,100. My, my, my! I just had to relist the damn thing again. Oh, it's been sitting and sitting and sitting. Now, I don't know. You guys have to do your homework with these pinball deals of the week. Why do they have to do the homework? Well, because I'm not vouching for these sellers. I'm just vouching for, if this is true, $6,100 for a Tron Legacy that's like new, brand new condition with all of these mods. $6,100. That tells me, listeners, that you're going to see Tron start to plummet down into the $5,000 ranges. Yep. Sorry, LE owners. So you're saying we should wait. Not going to get no $10,000 Tron from me. What? Yeah. How does that affect the vault edition? Yeah. Decision. Rumors. Maybe that's why they vaulted Iron Man instead. Oh. Yeah, because it's not trending down. Ooh. Yeah. Maybe they're listeners of the pinball shows, pinball market trends. Buy, buy, buy! Maybe. Probably not. Yeah, no custody agreements here. You ain't getting these kids on the weekends. I don't give a shit. You guys want to hear another juicy deal of the week? I think you should limit to one, but go on. That's okay. I got another one for you, Dennis. It's one of your favorite f***ing games. It's The Hobbit by Jersey Jack Pinball. You can find one outside of Arlington, Virginia off of Pinside's Ardoyle 1978. He's got a great condition one. And Ali, also, he's thinning the herd and needs some space. But, yeah, he's wanting either a creature from the Black Lagoon, a Torch Trader, or an Elvira House. How does he create space? Well, no, those are standard width. Okay, yeah, he will gain a lot of space by swapping for a creature. Yeah, save a lot of pounds, too. That's a heavy game. but one of them for home use only, $6,400. Buy, buy, buy! That's a whole lot of game for $6,400, peoples. I think you'll probably get them down a little bit more as well. And you know what? Since you talked about the coupon code, I'm going to do this for the listeners here. And the only way you can redeem this is if you tell me that you heard it here on the Pinball Market Trends and you have to say it's your favorite segment in all of pinball podcasting. But I'm going to do an exclusive one week only. You know that $13,000 Pirates of the Caribbean I had listed with all these beautiful mods and all this? Buy, buy, buy on this one, ladies and gentlemen, because I'm going to slash and dash and gash the price down to $12,000 this week only. If you want it, come get you some $12,000 preferably cash, and you can get yourself the Pirates of the Caribbean. So how about that $1,000 coupon code there, Dennis Creasel? You're going to throw that up on my face. Buy, buy, buy! I'm taking a hit there. I'm sorry that you've been having trouble selling it, though. Wow. Yeah, maybe I'll edit that part out because I don't know if I can take that big of a hit. Right. If it's not selling at $13,000, would that mean that it's trending down? Oh. You know, we have seen a couple of them start to – I've seen pirates up and down like every couple weeks it seems. Yeah. I know. I know. So $12,000. I keep my pin stadium lights. You guys get one of the greatest games ever made. Fair. Deal. Deal. Handshake. Handshake, fellas. That was your pinball show, Pinball Market Trends. Come get you some, Dennis Creasel. How was it? Did you like it? I loved it. Oh, who's that? That was actually the four-inch Creasel clone. Help! Help, Daddy! Oh, God. Help! Help! Can we drop the... Oh, my favorite. I would never drop the Creasel clone. I'll keep it right in my pocket. Why not? It's stupid. It's bad enough that everyone calls me Den Den. Oh, he's snarling at you right now. Man. Snarling. It's your daddy, too, there, Creasel clone. Snarf, snarf, snarf. All right, guys. Well, that's going to wrap up episode number two of the Pinball Show. Always good times with you guys. Dennis, if somebody wants to reach out and get a hold of you, other than reaching out to us at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com, how can they get a hold of you privately? They can't. I'm now secluded from the world. There you go. You heard it here. Sequestred. That's not a rumor. Or do you want Costa Rica as well? Oh, for Costa Rica. Nice place. Yeah, they can always email eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com. That's the other show I do. And I think it's important to realize that when Dennis is here, it's because he's not recording with Eclectic Gamers Podcast. He's alternating weeks on both. So you're going to be able to get a weekly dose of Dennis by hopping from the Pinball Show and Eclectic Gamers podcast, correct? Yeah, unless I fail. He's still behind the scenes working, too, which is nice. Unless you leave the network. Yeah, unless I abandon you guys, finally. Don't. Speaking of being abandoned, Zach, how can you get along with your buddy? I'm on an island all on my own, and I still get missiles. You can reach me at the Pinball Network, I guess, Or you can watch me at straight down the middle of Pinball Show, the video YouTube series on pinball. Or if you're ready to buy a brand new Escalera stair climbing hand truck or the beautiful assortment of pinball machines in 2020. Oh, you can call me. Right now we do have Ghostbusters Ellie, new in the box still that I may sell. And now Virus Signature. Those things are virtually gone and super rare. I've got one I've been holding back. And then we're going to be at the Louisville Show. We are going to be the premier distributor at the Louisville Show. So come by at the beginning of March, first weekend of March, and hang out with us then. I know that King Cromwell is going to be there as well as some of our other friends. Brian Eddy, I think, is going to make an appearance at the Louisville show from Stern Pinball as well as Mike Vinikour. Dennis, you going to go? No. When is that show? March 6th. Yeah, March 6th. Oh, no, I can't do anything. I can barely do TPF in March. March is just too bad. Really? You're going to do TPF, though. I will. Will you sit by me at the Twippies? maybe. I haven't decided if I'm going to attend the Twippies. Take a stance. I'm going to be there. Let me weigh my options. It's a good opportunity for me to get in line and play all those new hit games like Hot Wheels. Maybe you can be a good friend and watch my booth while I'm at the Twippies. That's just exactly what he wants to play the distributor role while you're partying at the Twippies. Yeah, here, let me show how powerful the Escalera is. I'll give you a commission. And if you guys are ready for one of those machines, you can reach out to me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at flip the letter N, outpinball.com, or 812-457-9711. Give me a call. Let's talk about which pin will go perfectly in your location. Did you hear that? Location. Location owners. I'll be happy to provide you. Or in your game room. Let's do it. And if you want to reach me, Ken Cromwell, it's just thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. You can't reach me anywhere else. And if this thing fails, I am out of pinball. I'm all in, guys. It is what it is. No pressure, listeners. No pressure. So if you joined us this week on the Pinball Network, we had a lot of content that has come up. And we've got a lot of content for you the following week. Actually, this week as you're listening to this podcast. Crystal Gemnick, she's going to be making her TPN debut at some point this week. If you got that midweek show, which is also the pinball show, we don't know who's going to be hosting or co-hosting that. For those of you that may or may not have had the opportunity to listen to Off the Record, it gives you, the listener, the opportunity to submit a podcast to be aired on the Pinball Network, and that is on Sundays. You heard Orbital Albert that kind of popped in with Orby's Top Three. David Dennis and Ron Hallett with Silver Ball Chronicles. Killed it. A lot of positive feedback there. And Marty and Jeff Teolas with the final round. What an excellent way to kind of compliment day number two on the network. A lot of great feedback coming out of those guys. It's getting rave reviews, that one. Yeah, absolutely. All in all, very good feedback. We're appreciative of it. But this week's going to be another big week. And also, look for our YouTube channel to start getting some action as we've got Lee coming in, formerly of Pinball Supernova, or is he currently of Pinball Supernova? I think he's still putting out, doing at least the new stuff through Pinball Supernova. Perfect. So he's sticking around, and he's going to be here to inform and entertain throughout the way. But there's going to be surprises. So listen, if you're listening to this, make sure you subscribe, because anything that comes up through the feed podcast-wise on the Pinball Network will be updated in your podcatcher. And you don't have to go searching aimlessly for your pinball content. It's a one-stop shop for fun and entertainment and all things pinball. And news alert, news alert, news alert. We just added another streamer that's part of the Pinball Network family. Oh, yeah. Big news. He may be one of the greatest pinball players on the whole freaking planet. Raymond Davidson. Or not. We don't want to judge. Yeah, Raymond Davidson of Ray Day Pinball on Twitch joins the Pinball Network stream team. So that's pretty exciting news. All right, guys, for Dennis Creasel and Zach Menne, I am Ken Cromwell. I might be back in two weeks. I haven't decided. Always practice safe pinball and UV up. Don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. See you next week. So long, everybody. And included this light kit. Okay. Letting them make that decision makes sense. LEs, though, do whatever you want to them. I've got fire alarms going off. Just a minute. Hey, no worries. They were doing it this morning, and I don't know why. His kids burned the grilled cheese. One second. The grilled cheese. Sorry, guys. The newly remodeled house is in flames. Zach's going to get in one last segment before he calls the Jimmy Johns and then the fire department. Yeah, Jimmy. Jimmy Johns. It's freaky fast. It's so fast. You're sub so fast, you're a freak. Dennis, is there anything that you want to hit on with this stream? No. Okay.