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Ep 57: Pinball Story

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 12m·held·Jun 14, 2022
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.039

TL;DR

Final Round EP57: World Champs recap, Haggis updates, and Toy Story hype ahead of reveal.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 57 features hosts Jeff Theolis and Martin Robbins discussing their recent travels and pinball experiences. Jeff attended the IFPA 17 World Championship in Florida and then a 10-day father-son baseball trip, while Martin has been busy with Haggis pinball machine shipments and show appearances. The episode covers Keith Elwin concession at Worlds, positive reception of Haggis/Fathom 2.0, upcoming show commitments, and speculation about the Jersey Jack Toy Story pinball machine reveal.

Key Claims

  • Jeff attended IFPA 17 World Championship in Florida and made the playoffs as his goal

    high confidence · Jeff Theolis discussing his World Championships experience; stated 'top 64 people' and 'my goal this time was simply somehow, someway, make the playoffs against all these great players. Mission accomplished.'

  • Keith Elwin conceded to Escher in game nine of a best-of-nine match at IFPA 17 Worlds when Escher scored over a million on Dialed In

    high confidence · Jeff as eyewitness: 'And once Escher got his second SIM card and basically went over a million, as Keith was kind of in jail... When Keith saw what Escher did, he basically said to Adam, congratulations'

  • Fathom 2.0 machines have shipped to Australia and North America, with positive reception at Northwest show

    high confidence · Martin Robbins: 'I've seen some Haggis, Fathom 2.0s, shipped not only in Australia but here in North America too' and 'feedback from the show has been very positive'

  • Toy Story pinball by Jersey Jack was announced as in development 4-6 years ago, after Hobbit

    medium confidence · Jeff: 'I was told, I'm going to say four, five years ago, maybe even six years ago... someone from Jersey Jack was there and they told me that Toy Story was their next game. And that was after Hobbit.'

  • Toy Story pinball reveal is expected to happen on Tuesday (from Australian time perspective)

    medium confidence · Jeff: 'By the time this airs, it'll probably be revealed because I believe it's going to be revealed Tuesday, your time'

  • Pintastic in Boston area has expanded from one to three or four IFPA tournaments

    high confidence · Jeff: 'Pintastic has now gone from one to, I believe, three or four' and discussing Stephen Bowden's prior comments about wanting more tournaments at the show

  • Martin/Haggis are committed to appearing at Brisbane Masters and Pinfest Newcastle

    high confidence · Martin in response to direct question: 'Yeah, yeah, no, we've committed to Brisbane Masters. We've also committed to Pinfest in Newcastle.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I was on a 10-day trip with my son, Carson. We went to eight different baseball games in four cities over the 10 days and went to three baseball Hall of Fames. We went to two pinball events... this is when it happened.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~2:00-3:00 — Context for why the hosts have been absent; explains the trip that bookended IFPA 17 Worlds

  • “When Keith saw what Escher did, he basically said to Adam, congratulations, meaning congratulations for you and for Escher for moving on. Like, that's a score I can't do... I just see it as a real nice tip of the cap. And, again, there were no sour grapes there at all.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~12:00 — Key eyewitness account of Keith Elwin's concession moment at Worlds; characterizes it as classy sportsmanship

  • “We have spent a lot of time dialing in the flippers, hardware and software, to get them to play like the original Fathom. And I would say it plays like a snappy original fathom.”

    Martin Robbins @ ~31:00 — Direct feedback on Fathom 2.0 design philosophy and execution; validates the remake's technical approach

  • “My whole mindset in IFPA, and I think it was the right mindset, was I'm not playing whoever I'm playing against. I'm playing the machine. Fuck who I'm playing. It doesn't matter.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~13:00 — Reveals competitive mental approach that helped Jeff reach playoffs; contrasts with being starstruck by facing Keith Elwin

  • “Damien... if he could go to every single show, he would go to every single show because he likes talking to people. He likes sharing the story about Haggis... he loves just interacting with customers, fans, critics, whatever it is, just people.”

    Martin Robbins @ ~36:00 — Characterizes Damien Nott's (Haggis owner) personality and motivation for trade shows; suggests strong community engagement strategy

  • “I was told, I'm going to say four, five years ago, maybe even six years ago... someone from Jersey Jack was there and they told me that Toy Story was their next game. And that was after Hobbit.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~42:00 — Reveals long development timeline for Jersey Jack's Toy Story game; raises questions about extended development cycle

Entities

Jeff TheolispersonMartin RobbinspersonKeith ElwinpersonEscher GonzalespersonDaniele AcciaripersonEric StonepersonCarsonpersonAnnepersonDavid Denholtzperson

Signals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Jeff Theolis made playoffs at IFPA 17 Worlds (top 64) with goal of advancing beyond last time; faced Keith Elwin in round 1, Daniele and other elite players were also competing; Eric Stone won championship

    high · Jeff stated he 'made the playoffs' at 'top 64 people' at IFPA 17 and 'Eric Stone, big, big winner. I think he was easily the favorite.'

  • ?

    product_launch: Fathom 2.0 units are actively shipping to Australia and North America; positive reception at Northwest show indicates units in customer hands

    high · Martin: 'I've seen some Haggis, Fathom 2.0s, shipped not only in Australia but here in North America too' and 'feedback from the show has been very positive.'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Toy Story pinball by Jersey Jack expected to be revealed imminently (Tuesday per Australian timezone); confirmed in development for 4-6 years; high community anticipation despite lack of details

    high · Jeff: 'By the time this airs, it'll probably be revealed because I believe it's going to be revealed Tuesday, your time' and 'someone from Jersey Jack was there and they told me that Toy Story was their next game' 4-6 years ago

  • ?

    event_signal: Pintastic tournament expanded from 1 to 3-4 IFPA tournaments; trend of shows consolidating multiple tournaments to justify travel/cost; Brisbane Masters and Delaware Pinball Collective following similar model

    high · Jeff: 'Pintastic has now gone from one to, I believe, three or four' and discussed broader trend: 'you see a lot of people flock to District 82... Delaware Pinball Collective... Wizards World just happened in Indiana... Brisbane Masters'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.216

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:40
Hi, I'm Geoff Theolis. I'm also part of final round. What? Which, it's been so long I don't even know what episode it is or who I am. But I don't yet. It's Martin Robbins. This is the final round pinball podcast. Episode, I don't know. It's either between 54 and 57. Or none of those. Who knows? I have no idea. It has been so long. Why? What have we done? Why are we not podcasting as much as we used to? What's going on? We're busy is the summary of it, which everybody out there, I can hear them collectively going, boo, no one gives a fuck. Fuck you. We're busy. We are busy, but you've been away. Oh, so it's my fault. Is thank you for saying it, but... Couldn't pick up the slack? No, we could have recorded, but it was just not great timing, and I just said to you, go on your road trip and we'll come back, because then we'll at least have something to talk about. Maybe. We have no idea. We don't know. Once again, clean slate, no show notes, mics go on.
1:49
We're talking crap. We are going to be talking about the boys. So for those people that just want 100% pinball talk, We cannot guarantee that. We will continue our streak of making sure this is not completely a pinball show and do whatever the F we want. Correct. Okay. It is good to be talking to you once again. In fact, seriously, you and I have talked, what, twice in the last five weeks maybe? Maybe? Oh, I feel like it's maybe a bit more than that, but I'm also acutely aware that the amount of times that we talk compared to regular is down. Nothing has happened between us. Marty's the same cunt he was before we took a little break. Oh, more so. Thank you. I have definitely kept my status up.
2:35

  • Northwest (Seattle/Oregon area) is a major pinball hotbed with strong fan base and player quality comparable to or exceeding other North American regions

    high confidence · Jeff: 'pinball in the Northwest is just so bloody massive' and 'probably more than any place I know in North America'

  • Eric Stone was the favorite and winner at IFPA 17, with Escher also making impressive performances

    medium confidence · Jeff: 'Eric Stone, big, big winner. I think he was easily the favorite... He was blowing up games.'

  • Fathom 2.0 code feedback indicates it plays like a snappy original 1981 Fathom with new code additions

    high confidence · Martin: 'I got an email from somebody to Haggis basically saying that it feels like a 1981 Fathom out of the box... it plays like a snappy original fathom'

  • “They get all the bells and whistles. Fine quality machines. What could go wrong? It's going to be beautiful. It's going to be theme oriented... We haven't seen it.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~46:00 — Express optimism about Toy Story but acknowledges unknowns before reveal; reflects community anticipation and uncertainty

  • “If Stern's the leader, Jersey Jack has said, okay, Stern, you've got to step it up a little bit, and Stern certainly has.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~49:00 — Articulates Jersey Jack's competitive role in pushing Stern to improve design and quality

  • “pinball in the Northwest is just so bloody massive... you can't walk down certain streets in Seattle without seeing an arcade or two. There's just so many machines... probably more than any place I know in North America.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~33:00 — Highlights regional pinball ecosystem strength; emphasizes importance of Northwest as major pinball market

  • “If it's the Toy Story universe or whatever theme you want, if it's the universe of that and you can do whatever you want, that makes a better pinball machine. Jurassic Park is the example... It has nothing to do with the movie except things you're familiar with in the movie.”

    Jeff Theolis @ ~47:00 — Articulates design philosophy preference: universe-based themes allow gameplay surprise vs. movie-plot-following games; cites Jurassic Park precedent

    • Damien Nottperson
    Gregperson
    Stephen Bowdenperson
    Raymond Davidsonperson
    Final Round Pinball Podcastorganization
    IFPA 17 World Championshipevent
    Pinball Asylumvenue
    Haggisproduct
    Fathom 2.0product
    Toy Storyproduct
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Northwest Arcade and Pinball Showevent
    Pintasticevent
    Brisbane Mastersevent
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent

    venue_signal: Northwest US (Seattle/Oregon area) identified as major pinball hotbed with strong player base, numerous arcade locations, and significant event infrastructure; comparable to or exceeding other North American regions

    high · Jeff: 'pinball in the Northwest is just so bloody massive... you can't walk down certain streets in Seattle without seeing an arcade or two... probably more than any place I know in North America.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Final Round Pinball Podcast experiencing extended gap between episodes (unclear numbering around ep 54-57); hosts have been busy with competing travel commitments; reduced communication frequency between co-hosts

    high · Martin: 'It's been so long I don't even know what episode it is' and 'Why are we not podcasting as much as we used to?' Jeff: 'I can hear them collectively going, boo, no one gives a fuck.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Haggis Fathom 2.0 designed to replicate original 1981 Fathom flipper feel/physics through both hardware and software tuning; new code layer adds modern gameplay on top of classic foundation

    high · Martin: 'we have spent a lot of time dialing in the flippers, hardware and software, to get them to play like the original Fathom... it plays like a snappy original fathom. But then you've got new code, which just gives you something completely different.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Positive customer feedback on Fathom 2.0 from early units in field; unboxing/show feedback described as 'well worth the wait'; minor negative comments noted but characterized as 'not saying that it's a bad thing, but it's just that it's a different thing'

    high · Martin: 'feedback from the show has been very positive... negative comments are really quite minor' and email: 'feels like a 1981 Fathom out of the box, which was validation.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Keith Elwin's graceful concession at Worlds game 9 (to Escher on Dialed In) characterized as classy move and sign of respect; eyewitness account emphasizes no sour grapes; reflects competitive maturity in elite player community

    high · Jeff: 'When Keith saw what Escher did, he basically said to Adam, congratulations... I just see it as a real nice tip of the cap. And, again, there were no sour grapes there at all. I think it was a nice sign of respect from Keith.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community pre-release speculation on Toy Story features (original voices, movie clips vs. universe approach); Jeff and Martin expressing high confidence in Jersey Jack's execution; acknowledging Star Wars pinball's mixed reception as cautionary tale

    medium · Jeff: 'What could go wrong?... Here's what could go wrong. We haven't seen it... maybe they aren't [using original voices]' and discussing Jurassic Park as better design model than pure movie-plot following

  • ?

    industry_signal: Jersey Jack positioned as quality leader forcing Stern to improve; Jersey Jack's high-end approach ('everything but the kitchen sink') creates competitive pressure in premium machine segment

    medium · Jeff: 'If Stern's the leader, Jersey Jack has said, okay, Stern, you've got to step it up a little bit, and Stern certainly has.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Damien Nott (Haggis owner) views show attendance as high priority for direct customer interaction and storytelling; would attend 'every single show' if possible; shows valued as customer engagement and feedback opportunity

    high · Martin: 'if he could go to every single show, he would go to every single show because he likes talking to people... he loves just interacting with customers, fans, critics, whatever it is, just people.'

    • All right. You want to know what's going on? Forget the last two weeks. This is the last two months. Yours truly. Today, right now, I'll let you know, behind the curtain, it is my time. It is Monday, June 13th. It just rolled past midnight, so we're now into Monday. it is a holiday for you in australia celebrating queen elizabeth's birthday or something like that we don't do it in canada we celebrate victoria's she's been gone forever but we still so we forget queen elizabeth before we started recording you said oh we celebrate victor i went she's dead you know so not sure we need to celebrate her birthday anymore and you don't get one for queen elizabeth no we like the may hold the may holiday is much nicer so i don't I want to switch things around. May is good. You can have yours in June. That's fine. Okay. So today, the 13th, I arrived home hours ago, and I was on a 10-day trip with my son, Carson. We went to eight different baseball games in four cities over the 10 days and went to three baseball Hall of Fames. We went to two pinball events, which we'll talk about, and just went to Six Flags. It was a fun father-son trip that has been kind of in the works since the pandemic. My son missed his grad, his prom, his last year playing baseball with his buddies, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I want to do something special for Carson, and this is when it happened. So that was good. The only problem was, and there's no problem, but it was off the back end of me spending nine days in Florida for the IFPA 17 World Championship. So Anne has been away. Anne was in Portugal for a week. So I just had to introduce myself to my wife. We have been away from each other, I would say, 20, 30, 30 out of the last 35 days. Isn't that nuts? Can I ask a quick question? Is Anne back from Portugal? She was gone the week before I went to Florida, and then I went for nine days, and then I was home for four days, and then went on this 10-day trip, and I'm back. Oh, by the way, she's leaving on Wednesday for North Carolina. So what do I do with my time with my wife? I'm doing a podcast with you. For you, the damn listeners who don't give a shit about our show, you're welcome. Quick question for you as well, just to, because I don't know whether you've answered this on Facebook or not, but someone asked, which Six Flags did you go to? It's outside of, I guess it's west of St. Louis in Eureka, Missouri. So it was fine. It was good. You know, it's not as great as Canada's Wonderland in Toronto, but it's certainly better than a Darien Lake. It was fine. It was good. It was a hot, hot day. So we did six rides and we're like, okay, we're done. But it was great. Yeah, I keep forgetting. Now, the other side of the world, it's really hot. It's freezing here, so I couldn't imagine being outside at the moment. No, no, no. The Freckle Enhancer was working overload this week for sure, but it was good. So let's talk about the pinball stuff. Yes. Let's talk about the World Championships. Okay. That was IFPA 17. I actually qualified legit. Didn't need Herbert from Austria to not show up and me squeak in as the first in the queue. No, this was legit. I got in. So top 64 in the world, if you will, best two from every country, and then the remaining players. It was in Florida at the Pinball Asylum, a great location. David Denholtz did a good job. It was streamed on their Twitch feed in the Norma Jennings booth, so it was a very, very nice tribute to Norma, who recently passed away. Anyway, top 64 people. This is my second World Championships. My goal this time was simply somehow, someway, make the playoffs against all these great players. Mission accomplished. I did it. That was my goal. Shouldn't your goal be to win? I guess it should be, but I set my goals as doing better than the last time. So, I mean, yes, that would be great, but there's also a realistic situation in which I know I'm not going to win. Yeah. So that's a big deal. No, again, I guess it would be like saying my goal is to have a successful comedy career. Yeah, I get it. I understand. Take it easy.
    6:35
    How many minutes are we into it? About six minutes? Five. Okay, when does the bubbles are going to burst joke come out? We're six minutes away from that. It's coming. We're back, final round. We're fucking back.
    6:48
    Anyway. So I'm probably talking about this premature, but I want to talk about the thing that happened at the World Championships.
    6:59
    I'm talking about Keith Gate. because all i know all i know is they sort of announced they went um yeah keith's conceded i'm like keith's what oh he just didn't want to play anymore what you were there what happened on the spot reporter tell me no no no listen to every other podcast that gives you their impression and tells you what happened because they weren't there and hey listen i'm not saying their opinions aren't worth anything, but this podcaster is the only one that was there. And not only was there, was standing beside Keith as Escher was playing and blew up, dialed in. Adam Lefkoff was there as well. And once Escher got his second SIM card and basically went over a million, as Keith was kind of in jail, like he was nowhere near multi-ball, had to do a moat, like it's a long progress. It's not something, you know, he could have done it for sure. It's not a game he enjoyed. He played it earlier against Daniele and knew maybe his limitations from that, lost on that as well. When Keith saw what Escher did, he basically said to Adam, congratulations, meaning congratulations for you and for Escher for moving on. Like, that's a score I can't do. It is. I don't care what anybody says. You're not Keith Elwin. I'm not Keith Elwin. But what I saw was nothing other than a classy move by him to say, congratulations you did it just set it up just for a second because i know that it's it's first to four games and you've got to win by two something like that well so where were they at at that stage game nine oh this was it you have to win four out of six and it was tied three three after six so then it becomes the best of nine so again each player picks three games in that best of six, if you will, first to four. And then when it comes to the best of three, the higher seed will get two games and the other person get one seed. Well, Escher was the higher seed. And so, in fact, the way that worked is everyone who played their game. So if Keith picked the game, he won that game. If Escher picked the game, he won that game. Because Escher picked five games, he won five to four against Keith. That was four and a half hours of playing just that freaking round.
    9:18
    And again, dialed in not a game that probably Keith enjoys playing or likes. I know he likes Lawler. He said it before that he's a Pat Lawler fan, but there's a bit of jail in that game or certainly a lot of grinding. You know, I think somebody like Raymond Davidson certainly would have taken a shot because he owned a dialed in. And if you watch Texas Pinball Festival, he kept picking dialed in and went over a million every time. So it's just different. And again, I think it was just more of a respect to Escher that, you know, congratulations, you know, you put it out of reach for me. Maybe he'd never gotten a million before or anything close. So, again, I just see it as a real nice tip of the cap. And, again, there were no sour grapes there at all. I think it was a nice sign of respect from Keith. Huh. Okay.
    10:03
    Not as cool as I had in my mind. I thought this was kind of like a got to the third game, just flipped the table and went fuck his all and walked out. And I was thinking, that's fucking cool. You'd love that. Oh, that was awesome. I've already said to you that I think him doing this was very cool. Just not as cool as I thought it would be. But I totally get it as well. If you've been playing for four and a half hours and you just look at it and you go, you know what? I can just bow out gracefully and give this person the move. Just do it. And that's probably what it was. He was just like, you know what? I've got nothing to prove. Hand it over to the young'uns. Well, look at the gauntlet Keith went through just to get there. I mean, he played Will McKinney, who was doing excellent. I think Will had two buys, and he beat Will from Arizona. Before that, in round two, he had to play Daniele. Like, that's a round two matchup. There are 16 people left, and one of those between Daniele and Keith, the two greatest, perhaps, living players, have to battle it out, and one's gone. That was an epic match. And then Keith, of course, had to face me in the first round. I mean, the guy was freaking tired. Yeah, yeah. I could imagine how he'd be shaking in his boots coming up against you. I'm going to tell you something about that one. And if you're listening, Keith, I'm going to say it on this podcast. We picked three games. All right. Do you know what that chicken shit picked? He picked Avengers. I'm like, oh, you've got to pick one of yours to fucking beat me. No, that's not necessarily an advantage. You might know the rules. You don't know how it plays. He said, well, he jokingly goes, well, you've got one now, so you should be good. And right before he played, I fucking pulled up my phone. I go, here are the pen tips if you need some help. needless to say he kicked the shit out of me in all four games we played even the last game too i picked warlock because he used to own a warlock or maybe still does the one that was at pinberg and i fucking love that game i tried to buy it off keith yeah and uh i go all right you may win this battle but this is on the line i fucking slapped a dollar down on the table he's like all right we're gonna play for a dollar he fucking took my dollar too yeah anyway you know what it's funny because my whole mindset in IFPA, and I think it was the right mindset, was I'm not playing whoever I'm playing against. I'm playing the machine. Fuck who I'm playing. It doesn't matter. If I have a good game and lose, okay, that'll be it. If I have a bad game, that's my fault. So my mindset was, I'm not playing the player. I'm playing the machine. It doesn't matter who I'm playing. I have to have a good game. If I have a good game, I have a good chance of winning. If I have a bad game, I don't deserve to win. So that really helped me. But for some reason, when I saw the bracket and Keith came up, I was like, I forgot all about that. Oh, great. I got to go against the goat. This sucks. And I was kind of stupidly beaten before I even started. So anyway, who cares? Eric Stone, big, big winner. I think he was easily the favorite. If you listen to my pinball profile, episode 300, I said, you have to be the favorite. It's your own place. He was blowing up games. And in fact, Escher himself conceded a game on F14 Tomcat when he had, I don't know, 17 million and eight multi balls. He just went, I'm not going to come back and grind on that. Let's go to Black Rose. I thought that was, again, a classy move and the right thing to do. So it happened the next round. So there you go. Well, in a different way. It's one thing to concede and go, you know what? I'm going to save my energy onto the next game as opposed to, yeah, I'm walking out.
    13:30
    I'm just saying. I don't know. I mean. Cool in different ways. I see it as nothing but classy. And, again, being there. Almost excited for us. Like, wow, you came through when it mattered. Game nine and you blew it up and there you go. Yeah. And maybe it is. Maybe it just is the fact of the matter that younger people have got a lot more energy and Keith's gone, I'm too old for this, man.
    13:54
    I've got arthritis now. If anyone thinks Keith didn't want to win, you're definitely wrong. He definitely wanted to win. He just knew when he was beat. Yeah, that's it. And it's just weird that it was game nine. If it was game one, you wouldn't blink an eye. It was game nine. Same situation, just I think people wanted to see it play out, but that's just what the viewers wanted. But Keith knows. I mean, who's going to question Keith on anything? I'm not. No, not going to. He has got nothing to prove, right? Nothing to prove. But I guess as an audience, for those people that are backing him and are supporting him, it would have been a disappointment because you want him to win. And also, don't you want a third ball comeback? and against Escher, whom we know is known for third-ball comebacks.
    14:44
    So, yeah. You know, especially when you look at IFPA 16 and Daniele blew up Bram Stoker's Dracula and Johannes. That's the one that comes to my mind, yeah. So I get that. But I'm not going to question Keith, and I'm sure someday he'll tell us his story. But I also didn't want to ask him. Again, I don't want to question what you're doing because you know what the hell you're doing better than anyone else. So there you go. But it's not like it's going to reverse the decision. What does it matter? It's done.
    15:14
    Guaranteed. His next game for Stern has a flipper code that basically says, fuck you, dialed in. You know what's going to be in there.
    15:22
    Okay, so that was part of my trip. But you've been a busy guy, and I know you've been busy. I've seen some Haggis, Fathom 2.0s, shipped not only in Australia but here in North America too. And I know you're not the spokesperson. So for those people that are like, hey, Marty, tell us this. Marty just works there. Yeah. Well, I feel a bit more than just working there. But I know that there's a lot of comments that say, oh, you know, Marty hasn't commented on this. And Marty hasn't said, well, I'm not the spokesperson. I'm not at liberty to say anything. So if people ask me about what's going on, Haggis, and they ask me about Fathom, I'll answer it to the best of my abilities. But I am not the spokesperson. so I'm not the one that instigates these conversations. Well, let me at least say this. Looks gorgeous. The unboxing, the Northwest show, from what I hear, you know, it's well worth the wait. And just like every other machine, we're waiting for machines, so why would Haggis be any different? And, again, once you get your machine, do you care about the wait? No. You go, wow, that's great. It was worth the time, and this is a wonderful product. Looks good, buddy. Like, look, the feedback from the show has been very positive. Like, overall, the negative comments are really quite minor. And some of them are like, you know, not saying that it's a bad thing, but it's just that it's a different thing. But, yeah, no, the feedback has been very good. There was one on the show in the Fast Pinball booth. So they're the guys that pretty much do the boards for Fathom. So they were great advocates for it as well and allowed people to have a look at it. Feedback on the code has been really good. In fact, a couple of days ago, I got an email from somebody to Haggis basically saying that it feels like a 1981 Fathom out of the box, which was validation because we have spent a lot of time dialing in the flippers, hardware and software, to get them to play like the original Fathom. And I would say it plays like a snappy original fathom. But then you've got new code, which just gives you something completely different, visually, orally, and code-wise. I know there are only a few out there, and I haven't seen any of the videos of gameplay. How far along are people getting into 2.0? Don't know. I haven't had that sort of level of feedback on how far people are getting through it. It's exciting, though. Yeah, it is. I mean you know the more it gets out there I sure the more feedback will get good or bad And I said this before I welcome the feedback We just want to be able to do the best that we can do And in my case, you know, it's all the visuals. So pretty much a lot of what you actually see with your eyes on the game is what I've done, and then the code as well. So with Greg, obviously, we team up to put that together. So I'm just looking forward to more feedback, good or bad. Is it too early to say whether you or Damien or Haggis will be at something like Expo? It is too early to tell, yes. But we want to be there. Okay. Well, that's good. Yeah, for sure. How do shows work for Damien? I know you're not the spokesperson, but what's the feedback he says about shows? Because I wonder, not only for Haggis, but for other companies, because are the machines sold before you get there? Is there a new interest? What's the benefit of big shows for companies? I don't know whether I should say this, but I will say this. As far as Damien is concerned, if he could go to every single show, he would go to every single show because he likes talking to people. He likes sharing the story about Haggis and what we've done so far and, you know, to talk about the construction, but in particular the construction and manufacturing of pinballs he loves talking about. So he loves just interacting with customers, fans, critics, whatever it is, just people. So, yeah, he would be there at every one if we could. I'm asking you this live. I didn't ask you before the show started, so I don't know what answer you're going to get. Is Haggis going to be at Brisbane Masters? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay, great. I didn't know. I assumed so, but… Yeah, yeah, no, we've committed to Brisbane Masters. We've also committed to Pinfest in Newcastle. That's big. Yeah, so they're coming up, yeah. That's exciting. That's good. But speaking of shows, so that Northwest, what was it, Northwest Arcade and Pinball Show? Is that what it's called? The one in June. There's a Northwest one in September. No, I'm talking about the one that just happened. Yeah, I can't remember. One's in June, one's in September. So the one that happened in June, yes. Yep. So that was huge. Yeah. Have you ever been to it? No, and that's a big regret. But part of what I've been doing the last few weeks, and we'll get into that in a bit, is I've already committed to being away. But in hindsight, if I was able to schedule differently and go to that Northwest show that just happened in June, or maybe even the one in September, yeah, I really got to get there. I mean, pinball in the Northwest is just so bloody massive. Yeah, I know. The fan base, the quality of players, the game interest, the shows, the locations. Holy cow. I mean, you can't walk down certain streets in Seattle without seeing an arcade or two. There's just so many machines. And Oregon's the same as well. It's a real hotbed for pinball, probably more than any place I know in North America. Yeah, okay. Well, I just saw somebody do a walkthrough, and I just looked and went, there are a lot of machines there. That's a big show, and I had not heard of it before. It certainly doesn't get the fanfare of TPF in March or Expo in October in Chicago. But yeah, it's a big show. And of course, we're coming out of the pandemic. Thanks, Ian. And these shows are kind of, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Speaking of which, I want to mention another one. And we've talked about it on this show. And I want to go out of my way to say congratulations. I'm excited for you. based on my schedule, I can't go this year, but you're damn right I'm looking at it for next year. Pintastic coming up in the Boston area. Derek listens a long time. Gabe does a great job running that show. I've been there. Fun, fun tournament and good show, and there's lots of neat things to see. And on this program, we had Stephen Bowden on. We were talking about all these different shows and stuff. And keep in mind, Stephen, myself, we're pinball competitions first, although we certainly acknowledge how great the shows are. Pintastic is right at the top with the others. But we always said, you know, I wish there was just more than one tournament. Well, the voices have been heard. I think there are four IFPA tournaments there now. How many were there normally? There was one. Wow, okay. Some little kind of fun things that they would do that were fun. But again, I think what we were saying was for me to look at traveling and hotels and time off work and flights and this and that, I have to maximize my tournament experience. So that's why you see a lot of people flock to District 82. You go there for a weekend, you're going to get five tournaments or what just happened at the Delaware Pinball Collective, and you're going to see more of these happening. Wizards World just happened in Indiana. It was kind of like a five-one weekend thing. Brisbane Masters, another good example. So Pintastic has now gone from one to, I believe, three or four, and good on them. It does require a lot of work, and somebody's got to step up and volunteer, and they found the people to do that. So I just hope they have a wonderful show later on this month, and they've got some great guests. Who knows? They might even have a big reveal from Jersey Jack.
    23:12
    So are we going to talk about Toy Story? Wow. Do I have to fucking smack you in the back of the head when I'm segwaying something?
    23:19
    I couldn't have fucking teed that up. You know what? Again, my comedy chops are not there. Yeah, you know what? I'm just working. Is this where we go into Toy Story? I'm just working with a talent. The talent is in front of me. All right? You know? That's, you know. My God. See, this is my point. You go, hey, I gave a great segue. Did you, though? Hey, I had a great comedy career. Did you? See the parallels? Everyone knew I was leading into Toy Story except the guy on the microphone. Were you, though? Oh. Anyway, so let's talk about Toy Story. Oh, is that where we're going now? Yeah, sure. Well, apparently, if you'd given me some sort of hint as to what we were going to talk about next, maybe I would have been smoother. Hold on a second. Let me just type your message. He makes it get fucked up. Hey, cunt, play a story next.
    24:11
    You get that message? I do. So I think I have said this on the show before, but if I haven't, it's new. I was told, I'm going to say four, five years ago, maybe even six years ago, I was trying to look on my phone for the photos of this particular event. But there was an event I went to and someone from Jersey Jack was there and they told me that Toy Story was their next game. And that was after Hobbit.
    24:42
    Right? So do the math then, like work out when Hobbit came out. So that's how long this game has been in, I would say, development. And I'd imagine that it doesn't mean that people are 100% working on this thing for that time. But it says to me, well, no, not that it says to me, but it puts some expectations in my mind. First of all, I wonder why it has taken so long to get it to market. And two, does that mean you've had enough time for it to be the best game ever? That's a pretty tall order. Yeah, the best game ever? Well, they've had like 6, 7, 12 years. I don't know. They've had a long time. Great license. Legendary designer. A company that puts everything but the kitchen sink into their games. They get all the bells and whistles. Fine quality machines. What could go wrong? It's going to be beautiful. It's going to be theme oriented. Here's what could go wrong. We haven't seen it. Here's what can go wrong. Oh, it's not the original voices. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. Oh, they use movie clips. Or maybe they don't. If it's following the story of one of the movies, then you already know what's going to happen in the game. Whereas we've said before, if it's the Toy Story universe or whatever theme you want, if it's the universe of that and you can do whatever you want, that makes a better pinball machine. Jurassic Park is the example you and I both gave, right? It has nothing to do with the movie except things you're familiar with in the movie. Fingers crossed, maybe Toy Story is like that so that you can have surprises. You can't really have surprises if you follow the movie letter to the law.
    26:18
    That is true. I don't know. Some people like that. Some people like feeling like they're traveling through a predetermined story, which is the Toy Story from the movies. It could be that there's – because how many have there been? Have there been four Toy Story movies? Four. And what if this game only follows one of those movies? Is that going to be something that could be disappointing? Listen, I think this is a great, great license. I think I have full faith that this machine will be as good as all their other machines, and I think they're a wonderful company, and they make amazing products. They push the envelope. They make Stern games better because of the quality of their games, right? If Stern's the leader, Jersey Jack has said, okay, Stern, you've got to step it up a little bit, and Stern certainly has. So people are so predetermined on what this is going to be and what they want. If it's not in there, can that not lead to disappointment? And that goes for any company in any theme, right? Especially a very well-known license. Let's call it the Star Wars effect, right? I mean, even though I think Star Wars, the pinball machine, the last one, did fall short, I think it was a very tall order to be able to satisfy everybody anyway to the level that they wanted. That game prints money, though. Yeah, no, well, okay. That game prints money at arcades. Okay, cool. Well, no one gives a shit about that. Like, honestly. Operators do. Yeah, but how many are there? Like there's like one per city these days, you know? Nah, maybe in Australia. That's not the case here. But there's not a, I don't think, I don't even know whether there's a Star Wars. It's not printing money like the 90s. I'll give you that. Yeah, I would actually argue that it's probably not making as much as you think it is compared to other machines. And I think that's because people will play it once and go, fuck, that was tough. I'll go on to something else. I might not like the theme, but at least I'll get more of a game. I'll give you that. I'll give you that because there is certainly the frustrating factor of, whoa, whoa, whoa, what just happened? There goes my ball. Yes.
    28:19
    Especially, especially out of that right freaking scoop. That is just terrible. Yep. So there you go. So Toy Story. Again, I think, this is what I think. I think the, I'm just wanting my mind to think of all the machines. Guns N' Roses is obviously their first music pin, and I think they just absolutely slayed it when it came to producing a band pin. A lot of the other ones have been very sort of fantasy sort of stuff. This is their first real sort of delve into the cartoon animation world and I think I'm not going to be disappointed. I think it's going to be everything that I would want in a Toy Story pin. I'm the same as you. I don't think I'm going to be disappointed at all. I think I'm going to be quite thrilled. but I can already read Pinside. Oh, it should have had this. It should have been the voice of this, that. Of course. And by the time this airs, it'll probably be revealed because I believe it's going to be revealed Tuesday, your time. You think so? That's what I've heard. Oh, then I'll have to edit this right away. Zip, zip.
    29:27
    You know me, how quick I am on editing. Oh, my God. So what do you think of Toy Story, Jeff? The thing I love the most, the toys. I thought the toys were fantastic. What did you think? Oh, my God. Well, I mean, what they did with Woody was pretty cool. I mean, Buzz was better, but Woody was great. Yeah, they could have really dropped the ball with that one, but they, etc. Everybody, etc. What do you think of that ramp? Oh, my God. How about those balls? They were shiny. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the flippers. Can we talk about those? The slings? For fuck's sake. I mean, holy. Great review. There it is. So can I just completely change topic for a second? I've been bursting to talk about something. Couldn't do with a good segue. Oh, yeah, go ahead. That's fine.
    30:14
    Steer the car to the right. Here we go. All right. Go ahead. I think I have played the, I was going to say the best, but I won't say the best. I'll say my favorite pin in probably the last, I would say four or five years. Guess which pinball machine it is. I don't know because you and I have not talked about this. We have not talked about this. You do not know. I'm going to guess because, but I don't know if it's there yet. You've been dying to play Rush and you've always said, I think I'll like it. So if Rush is in Australia and you've played it, I'm going to say Rush. Is that your final answer? It's my final answer. Yeah, it's Rush. Fuck me dead. It is so much fun. It is just fun. Such a great layout. It is. Again, I was playing and I was going, oh, you know, that's just like Lord of the Rings and the right-to-left orbit is a lot like KISS. The tops like X-Men? Yeah, you know, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't, like, logically I can look at that and I can see things that resemble other things. And that's, you know, Borg is the king of iteration. But what he's created is kind of like a greatest hits.
    31:28
    You're exactly right. He did that, Guardians of the Galaxy was the greatest hits of Iron Man and Metallica. And this is the greatest hits of whatever you just said, X-Men and all that stuff.
    31:41
    We've seen this before, not all in one machine. Great shots. So what did you like about it? Because you're not even a fan of the music. No, no, no. And I never will be because they suck and anyone that likes them is an idiot. But here's what it is. And I think I may have said this. I don't know. When I was doing my critique of Rush, and I was being obviously, you know, quite nasty about it because I know that you're a fan and they're Canadian, so I knew that was going to hit home. But my biggest criticism of Rush is what I said was technically it is extremely well-made music, like just complicated. It all just comes together in this beautiful soundscape. The only thing that's missing from Rush are melodies and hooks, you know. He sings, there's voices, there's words, but there's nothing memorable. It's almost like it's a guitar solo that is what he's singing, right? You've just described prog rock. No, I haven't because I'm a big fan of prog rock. Prog rock can go down there, but good prog rock will also have a good memorable melody as well. It goes off on its 10-minute solos. But anyway, don't challenge me on that because I'm going to a good place. so because there's nothing i think melodically that really stands out and it's this rich complicated soundscape it is the best pinball music you can have there you go i've said it i reckon it makes for i don't care about what you're playing what the song is what i care about is the mood that you're conveying through the medium of music and that's what it does so well it makes you feel really good oh it's good i like the sound package i like the call outs i think they're funny as hell but the shots and the code is so good and it's getting deeper where were you playing it at hash bands and danger rays ah yep so it was danger rays 50th birthday so happy birthday Fuck! I'm an idiot!
    33:46
    I'm an idiot. I was asked to do a video. And I even said I was away at the time. And I said, please remind me. Fuck, fuck. Happy birthday. Damn it. Anyway, so that's where I got to play it. And do you know what I'm going to tell you? I only played it once. And you liked it that much? One game, and I couldn't stop smiling. I just went... It's almost like, I don't want to play this again just in case I was wrong. I have a bad game. And I just loved it. And I was having this conversation. I said, this is what it is. And I'm sorry to do a comparison with Godzilla, which I know is technically a fantastic game. But what you cannot deny is John Borg's years and years and years of design means he knows what's going to make you feel good. There you go. I've said it. Okay. You played Godzilla and you said the shots feel great. You just didn't like the what have I done aspect. Yeah, but I just, I don't know. I think they're fine. I think they're great. But again, I just don't feel satisfied.
    34:52
    Would you feel better? Because it's not at full code yet, Godzilla. It's not at full code. But would you feel better if you got to a certain mode and then the flipper dies and it just says walk away? Like in true key fashion. Would that make you feel better? Yeah. Okay. Do it. Just say, oh my god, you've got to have the conceited champion. Did you just laugh at a joke? Hold on, I've got to make a note of this. Oh, you might get a career out of this. Fuck, okay, write that down. That's gold there.
    35:19
    Yeah, that was almost funny. That would be hilarious. Come on, Keith, do it. Hilarious. Do it. Anyway, there you go. And so we're talking, let's talk all the recent games that have come out. So Godzilla, Avengers, remind me of the others. There haven't been many. Legends of Valhalla Which I haven't played But Okay You know Turtles Guns N' Roses Mandalorian I've got to play Mandalorian Again I think it's a really clever layout It is I really do think it's a clever layout What are you trying not to say I know I know what you trying not to say because I trying not to say it too Well then you say it because Fuck it. You were the one who paused. I'm calling you on your bullshit. Say it. Just say it. Help somebody out. Okay. What I think is, I think the layout is its absolute best feature. What's the solution? Code. To make it better. It is the code. and why we're having trouble saying that is because you and I both love Dwight Sullivan. I know. He is a wonderful man. He fills me with warmth. Every time I talk about Dwight Sullivan, he just is the best person. I have faith that that code's not complete. Yeah, I agree. And there'll be some tweaks. Yeah. I just feel there's a connection not quite formed. It's almost there. But when those things come together, I think, I don't know, I have this feeling that Mandalorian could become an extraordinarily memorable game when those two things collide. It's got all the building blocks for it to happen. I'm just waiting for it to happen. Yep. It just needs a little more balancing on where the shots are and what's worth stuff because the criticism of that game is it is the centelorian. Just shoot the center over and over again and shit will happen. And you hate that. You know, for people having fun, they want to explore. And so you should. You know, I want to do all these different shots. That's great. If the center's awarding you points and you're playing in a competition, that's all you're going to do. It's kind of the problem with Star Wars. You know, people choose the same path. Fuck.
    37:40
    It's been so long since we talked. I played on, I really don't even know if we talked about this. I was playing at District 82. I was playing Star Wars. Another droid code. And I was playing match play, so I thought, okay, I just need a base. So I did this thing called the Layers. Yeah, I know, the Layers track. Yeah, yeah. It's where you kind of don't really complete everything. And you know what? You fall out of bed, you get $800 million. That should get you maybe not first, but maybe not last. Yep. And everyone I played played Luke. And I was like, is there something I don't know about Luke? Because I've never played Luke, ever. And I killed everybody. So I don't know if they missed their shots or something. But when I win by just picking a player and doing very little, I was like, ah, that needs some adjusting. But listen, I got tons of people. I can list tons of people that think Dwight Code is so massively unique and fun and please don't change a thing. So he's got his fan base for sure. Absolutely. In fact, you know what? There's actually video footage of him playing Fathom 2.0. Oh, nice. So now he can come on and go, yeah, so I feel like the code is shit.
    38:49
    Do it, Dwight. You got a free invite. Like, I am now fair game. Anything that I have said. But also, I have on record said that I believe, personally, the best code in any pinball machine ever, best code, Game of Thrones. I was going to say, that's my favorite. Dwight, I've told Dwight that. That's my favorite code in any game. Yeah. And I'm not an action button guy, but I think that's a brilliant use of the action button in that game. Yep. I think it's really good. I don't mind hitting the action button once or twice, like a boom in Deadpool or to make a shot. I'm fine with that, and I think it's great in Game of Thrones, for sure. Yep. But here we are talking about Mandalorian, we're talking about Star Wars. Could there be a change? Look at how long it took to make that change in Game of Thrones. You wouldn't have said before the change Game of Thrones was your favorite. Yes, I did. You did? Yeah, I did. Oh, I see. I like it much better now. I like it as much now. Okay. I liked it before. I liked, and I think I liked it because I always used to pick Greyjoy. So it just forces you to play everything harder and longer. And I always felt I had a choice. You always liked it longer and harder. I do, always. I mean, you've been saying that for a while. And deeper, for sure. Speaking of that, have you seen The Boys?
    40:11
    Is that a segue? Does that count? Well, no, because that was actually just saying, have you seen The Boys, which is the change of topic. It's not a segue. Had you said, speaking of boys, no, nothing? No, no. I can understand why you're in radio. Yes, but yes, I've seen the first episode of season three, is it? So have I. Guys, they do not waste any time shocking the fuck out of us. We're not spoilers. Nope. We're not spoilers. So we can't say anything except one little bitty tiny word. No, we can't even say that. We can't? No. Not even that. But it is a little bitty itty bitty word. That's all. All right. Go watch the boys. So we're not spoiling shit because I just saw the new Jurassic World. Okay. Do you not want me to say anything? I don't want to spoil it for anyone. So I'm going to say something without spoiling. You come back in two minutes. And if you don't want me to say it. What I know is how it's being reviewed at the moment. I haven't seen any reviews. So I don't even know if I'm on. I swear on my children's lives, I've never seen one review for the movie. I'll give you mine. Without spoiling the movie. I'm glad it's the finale. Yep. I'll just say that. Yep. Because I never want to see another one of those movies. 0 for 6. Yep. What a piece of shit. Yeah. Was I close to the reviews you're hearing? It's not rating well. I went and saw it Thursday night, opening night with my son. We were kind of, okay, we really don't have anything to do right now, last week. Do you want to go to a movie? Yeah, sure. Like, we're out in the middle of nowhere at a hotel, and we're like, oh, let's go to a movie. Oh, that's fine. Yeah, let's see that. The previews are kind of good. It's a popcorn movie, as they say. I would say there were 40 people in the movie theater. I saw 10 people walk out. Really? I'm not saying it's that bad, but 10 people did walk out. Okay. Okay, you're not saying it's that bad, but what I'm saying is a quarter of the theater walked out. But I'm not saying it's that bad, but a quarter of the theater walked out. I kept saying to my son, I haven't looked. How long is this movie? When is this over? Fuck. Yeah.
    42:26
    But can I also say, I haven't liked any of those movies, so I'm probably a bad judge of character. I haven't liked any of them. I have. Look, I've got a soft spot for the Jurassic Park franchise. I enjoyed the first three films. The first two in particular, the third one, it was fine. The first reboot, I really liked. The second reboot, I remember enjoying it. I cannot tell you a single thing that happened in it. I think it was just, it was there, it happened, dinosaurs happened. But, you know, as you said, it was a popcorn movie. It wasn't going to do anything that was going to be memorable, and it wasn't. Maybe I'm too old. Maybe it's a movie for kids, and kids will love it. So maybe I'm not the target audience. But I'm looking for something in my cinema that's a little more cerebral. All right? And this just said, not only leave your brain at the door, give it a shit-kicking. Fucking take a big dump on it. Give it a good Cleveland steamer. Oh, my God. It was. Anyway, so I'm not a good. I just can't get. Oh, it's a movie I'll never watch again. My wife was. She's like, oh, I wanted to go see that. I text her after the movie. I'm like, I just saved you two and a half hours. Yeah. Okay. Speaking of cerebral movies, my all-time favorite movie. Do you know what that is? Have I even told you?
    43:45
    Sound of Music? Close, close. Second. Can't Stop the Music? No. I feel it's music-related. It is music-related. Ah, there you go. Your favorite movie that's music-related ever. It's not even close to anything else. Well, it's a good one, but it's a shitty movie. It's a good soundtrack. This is Spinal Tap. And there's pictures of the new pinball machine. You know how we were talking about if you loved a theme and you could only be disappointed? Like everyone, if Harry Potter came out tomorrow, yay, it's great. There's going to be more disappointment, believe it or not, because you have this vision of what it is. And, oh, fuck, it doesn't have that, or that character's not in it, or it's not in this movie. That's the kind of, when it's that big of a license, that's what I was kind of saying with Toy Story. is like you're picturing what it's going to be and it's probably not all that because they can only put so much in there so this is spinal tap is i can't believe they made a pinball machine after this movie i'm happy they did but i know i'm going to be disappointed maybe because it's home pin but um from what i've heard you know it's a simple playing game it's certainly not a competitive players game but if it's too easy and i think of thunderbirds it's a game i played i was like i don't really want to play this ever again i it looked kind of i thought it looked good the spinal tap one i don't even know if it looks good and uh so i think i'm already going to be disappointed and maybe i'm psyching myself out so i actually like it but i still don't think i will okay have you seen this the spinal tap yeah i i tell you what oh my god no no the answer is yes or no it's not uh no no no i know the answer is yes the thing of it is i like the people as well behind that movie they've done other films as well and they're particularly known for fake documentaries. Yeah, mockumentaries, but ad-libbing, what do you call it? You know, when it's unscripted? Improvise. Just improvise. There you go, improvise. That's what they're known for is a lot of improvisation in the movies that they do. They start off with the scene, okay, here's the idea, we're going to do album reviews, so I'm going to give you a name and just tell me what the review was. That's exactly how the movie was made. Everything was improvised except for the songs. Right, there you go. And they're just so bloody funny. Yeah. And because I talk to a lot of musicians and interview them and all that kind of stuff, you ask them about Spinal Tap and everyone's like, it's the best movie because it's so damn true. It hurts that it's that true, but we've all had those Spinal Tap stories. That's what I love about it is that it's a comedy, but it's so close to the heart that it kind of pokes fun at yourself, which is the kind of humor I like. Yep. I like it. I liked it. I've only seen it maybe two or three times, but it was funny. It was funny. Stonehenge, one of the best, most iconic moments in movies ever. Lots of good stuff in there. So how's it going to be in the pinball machine? I'll play it. I hope I like it. Yeah, we'll see. I guess they're the only company that could do that theme because I can't see anyone else kind of doing it. It's certainly not a major company by any means. So if that's the only way it's going to be done, all right, fine. So now we're just waiting for Pony Factory and that, I guess. No, see, see. What? I would love a Punny Factory. You say that, but would you really? I know you like that kind of humor. Well, no, it's not the humor that I like. It's the layout that I like. I like the look of it. It reminds me of an old wide-body Gottlieb. What are they, like System 80 or something? You know, like the Black Hole era. Oh, boy. Haunted House? Haunted House. Oh, my God. I love Gottlieb from the Pink Panther. Oh, my God.
    47:22
    Oh, and there's this one in particular that I'm trying to remember from that era. But, you know, you've also got Genie, Circus. Genie's so good. But you know what I mean? Like those big wide bodies that Gottlieb did back then, they almost had sort of multiple mini playfields or mini sections within the playfield. And that's what Pony Factory reminds me of. I have joked so much about Pony Factory over the years, and I'm not endorsing it at all, but there's something about it that's quite appealing for me. There you go. I've said it. Have you put your money down on it yet? No, I haven't. Would you consider it if the price was good? Yeah. You would? Yeah, I would. Wow. I would because, I mean, sure, It's not a theme that anyone knows, and it's all a bit irreverent, but I don't know. It could be a bit silly. It could be a bit fun. It just could shoot really well. Having now spent nearly two years playing a game with a single-level play field and seeing how much fun that can be, I just don't think you could rule it out. I've always liked single-level games.
    48:34
    I don't get the whole, you know, I'm sitting here looking at ACDC. That's not a single-level game. Really? It's just a ramp that feeds back to the in-lane. I guess that elevation makes it not single level. Okay. All right. Those are the two. I don't know. I just don't. I don't know. I mean, does a ramp really make a difference? You know better than I do. I could care less. I think psychologically it makes a big difference to people. But if you have a look at Black Knight Pro. I'd rather have a spinner than a fucking ramp. Black Knight Pro. It's got one ramp? Yeah. That's it? One ramp. I think it's a really enjoyable game. Great game. Beats the shit out of you. Yeah. I like it a lot too. The Pro, yeah. There you go. But that one ramp, that's interesting you should say that. But people will look at a game like... Remember when TNA came out? Oh, single level. It's a fucking great game. Beats the hell out of you. It's got great sounds and unique shots, hard to trap up. Simple rules, but they get harder. I loved it. As you know, I like quirky different games. Always have. What do you hate? I hate games that are cookie cutters so this is why particularly let's call it the cookie cutter era which was I mean I can't remember them all but it was Attack from Mars Medieval Madness Cactus Canyon Monster Bash yeah but those games where you go yep you've got all the ingredients there but you're just moving shots around but you're not doing anything really all that innovative so that's i i get bored with games i really do you know i've got a very short attention span when it comes to a game if i could play a game three times and go you know what i've had my fill so imagine having a game for eight years in my collection how that would make me feel well here we go here's our latest game show which is what pinball did marty just sell What? Oh, hold on. Whoa. Okay. You did not sell Wizard of Oz. Is that your final answer? Like, what are you trying to say? Yeah. You have two games. I have two games. Was Star Trek the other one? Star Trek LA and Wizard of Oz. You did not sell Wizard of Oz. What makes you say that? Because it was a gift. If you sold it, you're a dick.
    51:01
    Oh, that's a shame that you know that piece of information because, yeah, I sold my Star Trek. The game, I said, I would never sell. Wow. Is something coming in its place? No. Because you have enough pinball at work? There's a couple of factors. A, I needed the money. It was actually it. Okay. There's a... Coke habit. Yes, it is. Got it. We know. That's okay. I'm sure I'll cut that out. Go on. No, just an unexpected amount of money that I need to spend, and I'm like, huh, I could put this off for a few months or i probably could get a good price for my star trek so i put it up i bet you did and i did and but you know what he's smart right before the bubble burst really well done well damn it you didn't give me a chance to bring up the bubble burst like you know it's not as funny if you bring it up so i really like a book let me okay i am not going to throw anybody under the bus. They are listening to this program right now. I will not mention the person's name. We talked about that. This person who is in the industry big time said 100% it's already starting to happen. And I can't give examples because that would give it away.
    52:25
    But here's some obvious things. Here's some obvious things that you can look at. What did Stern just announce? Stern just announced two games are no longer going to be produced Do you remember what they were? No Oh, yeah, um, Stranger Things Yep, and?
    52:41
    I'll help you out, Led Zeppelin And maybe that's because it was a Steve Ritchie game Or maybe because it didn't sell Yeah, okay, whatever Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure Why?
    52:50
    Because Why? Because they're The license's not up Because they've probably got enough sales coming through for the games that are out there Godzilla is probably still selling in shitloads. And, you know, I don't know. They probably just don't need to have that many games on the line. Different titles is what I mean. Have you noticed recently some maybe distributors in Australia or other places in the world have said, hey, we've got so many of these. They just came in. What do you mean they just came in? You mean they're not sold? Why aren't they sold out? They finally went to production and they're not sold out. So you've got scarics of evidence. And then doing a broad brush. Okay, cool. Got it. Understood. Yep. Someone has said, hey, we've got one pinball machine in stock. Does anyone want it? Not one. Is that what it is? Not one. Wishful thinking is what that is. Wishful thinking. Several. Listen to me. Not one. That's bullshit. Okay. And here's the other thing. How many times have you heard and you know that people have said, fuck, I want that game? When do I get it? Eight months? Shit. What do you got? I'll take that one. And instead of it being a new sale, people are selling them secondhand more now because they can't get them in production. And all that does is hurt the overall sales We circulating them Yeah But the bubble burst is talking about the second hand market The second hand market is what we talking about Because... You're right. Have a look at your phone. You ready? Another dick pic? Fuck off.
    54:20
    I don't have my phone on me. Is that what you got for Star Trek? A game that's out of production though. Sure. But that's what we're talking about is the bubble burst. The bubble is what it costs right now to buy a pinball machine? It's not about quantity. It's about the cost.
    54:39
    So I can't argue with you. You're right. You're right. The secondhand market, the bubble has not burst. You're absolutely right. What I'm saying is when the supply, whenever it comes back, and maybe it doesn't come back for two years. So me saying the bubble bursting is stupid because if it's two years, it doesn't matter. Once that supply comes back and you don't have to wait six, eight months, what does that happen to the secondary market? Yeah, it's going to kill the prices because you're like, fuck, I can get it. Why would I buy? I sold my Guardians. That was still in production. Why would somebody buy my Guardians when they can buy it new out of box? They can't right now, so they buy it from me. Again, what we're talking about is, and I know, sorry, listener, that you have to hear us bicker again about this when everybody knows I'm right. We're talking about… First of all, no one's listening to this program. It's just you and me talking. I just happened to put it out on a podcast. what we're talking about is the use of the word burst right because saying the bubble's going to burst indicates that there's going to be a major correction in a short period of time i never said short period of time but that's what a bubble burst is right the burst is otherwise it's just a mild correction you would call it a mild correction you wouldn't call it a bubble burst right no no time has nothing to do with it it's it's going to reach a point where it's like okay It's ridiculous. The supply is so big that you don't need to buy these used things. It has nothing to do with time. Okay, so if a machine that was being sold on the second-hand market for $13,000 all of a sudden goes for $12,800, bubble burst, look at that, $200 less, the bubble has burst. But $11,000. Yeah, but that's not what's going to happen. You're not going to have the bubble burst like that. You're going to have a correction over time once the market or the manufacturing catches up with demand. It's just, it is classic supply and demand. That's all it is. And unless either demand decreases or supply increases, you're not going to have any change. Marty, there's only one way to fucking settle this.
    56:40
    Do you know what that is? Have I got to kill someone? You're damn right. It's time for Who Will Marty Save? Now, that's a segue, Jeff. Well done. It only took you 20, 30 years to get your comedy career off the ground. Oh, thank God. Is it too late? Yes. It is way too late. Okay. All right. Who's it going to be? Like, you've got me all feisty now. I don't give a fuck. You tell me anybody. Mother Teresa, she's fucking dead. Well, it's easy to do that because she kind of is already dead. Wow. Didn't save enough. Is that what the problem is?
    57:15
    Not a fan of Calcutta. Anyway, here we go. Okay. Who have you got? Well, it's to help me. You're killing one of these people to help me. Can I kill both? That's the mood I'm in right now. Come on, bring it on. Oh, fuck. No complaints here, but you'd have to have a good reason. You know, we've kind of veered away from it for a while. We've been doing fluff things. But the people have spoken. Okay. It's back to killing people we know and the pinball players. You're going to make every person who's never played in a competition thrilled by this. Okay. Because you're knocking off competitors. Sure. at the IFPA 17 in the finals we had Kaylee George who came back unbelievably against Andre Mascoff he was down 3-0 and came back and won 5-3 should have been gone and knocked off Jim Belsito everyone's favorite everyone loves Jim and then he played Eric Stone who was the favorite to win at the pinball asylum so the funny thing about this is you have to pick between Eric Stone the world champion and Kaylee George, and the weird thing about it is, I mean, Eric, you should have saw this coming, a tornado is going to swoop one of these fuckers up. So really, you're not killing them, you're more saving somebody. We're not about killing people, but you have a chance to save one of these people.
    58:33
    You get to choose. You can only save one. I'm killing people. This whole toning it down bloody... Forget it. Both are safe. You're going to push one into a tornado. You happy? Yeah, Eric's time gets pushed. Over Kaylee. No, why? Whoa. Okay, go ahead. Eh, not a reason. Just, I need a reason. That's not entertaining. What did Kaylee... Eric Stone, a two-time champion. Two majors. Two majors, Josh Sharp. Two. He won the Open the first ever, and he now won the IFP 17 World Championship versus Kaylee George, who I think that is his third, second place finish at the World Championships. He's won it twice before. One of the greatest players ever. A guy who finds incredible exploits. Who are you going to pick? Who are you shoving into that tornado? This is actually really easy for me, right? I mean, the answer is Eric Stein. Sorry, spoiler alert, it's Eric Stein. Let me explain to you this. I'll ask this question. There's been an ongoing theme about me killing people when I'm faced with two people that I've met. What's the usual deciding factor? Oh, this is stupid then. No, it's not. Because you've met Kaylee and you haven't met Eric? I've met both. Oh, who is nicer to you? Yes. Who? How was Kaylee nice to you? He's cold as ice. I mean, he's funny as shit once you get to know him, but how was he nice to you? Well, I got through to Kaylee through his girlfriend. Now wife. Really? I think they're married. Yeah. If they're not, they should be.
    60:08
    She's awesome. And it was when we were at Papa, and she was in B Division qualifying with us. And so that's how I got to say hello to him, and he was really nice. And at the time, other people fresh-aired me. So if you fresh-air me, you know I don't forget. What does fresh-air mean? Oh, have you never heard the – okay. No. It's when you – I'll tell you what the opposite of that is. Go on.
    60:33
    No, no, I've got a great story. Go ahead. A fresh air is when you walk past somebody and then you turn away from them as though you're smelling fresh air. But you're walking past somebody and ignoring them.
    60:45
    It's called giving fresh air. Who did that to you? Eric Starr. He did? Hmm. Eric, what did you – wow. He, you know, has no idea who I am. But all I remember – you remember Papa. So Papa 20. Was it Papa 20? It was Papa 20, wasn't it? Well, that's when Asher won. Yes, it was. I was there. That's where you and I first met. That's when you thought I was, yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's an old joke. Fuck, come on, comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot what I was going to say about it. I don't even think Eric was there. I don't remember. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying these people were at the same event. I'm just saying I've met them over different times. But what I'm saying is, Papa, I didn't know anybody, so they didn't know who I was because I was a nobody, which clearly hasn't changed that much. So for somebody like Kaylee, whom I knew to actually give me time and have a conversation, I think that's kind of cool. So imagine when I am then internet famous and someone fresh airs me. Now, come on. Put those two side by side. Vast opposites. I'm going to give you the opposite of fresh air. Okay.
    61:55
    Glad I'm not next to you. It wasn't me. I just got off a 10-day trip with my son, Carson. We went to, again, eight different baseball games in four cities, six slags, all that kind of fun stuff. Really good father-son bonding time. We get to the one hotel, and we're on the third floor, and we get in after a baseball game. Elevator doors close. He lets one go. All right? On my car.
    62:19
    Surely it's a proud moment. Well, I'm now eating it because we're in an enclosed room, right? Like, it was not good. He got me good because I kind of told him. I said, look, we're driving thousands of miles. You fart once in the car. you're walking the rest of the way so you know we get out of the car get in the hotel i didn't make an elevator rule had i done that that's different anyway he lets one go we're up on the third floor i realized shit i left my laptop in my car so i gotta go back outside and now this thing's brewing same elevator and it's just it was a slow burner so it really started one of those ones that just does not dissipate well when he when he farted i heard it i'm like i don't i'm not smelling that And he was just like, he's gagging. I walk in the doors, and it just punched me right in the face. I'm like, oh! Press the lobby button to go down to my car. As I get off the elevator, four people walk in.
    63:12
    And I walk off by myself. I'm like, oh, fuck. And they walk in. All I can hear is them going, oh! Well, somehow you are responsible for it. I went up and I told Carson, you got me good. You totally shamed me into four people thinking I just died in the elevator. He was crying for minutes and minutes. Or at least on this podcast. And I'm always a little careful. I don't want to say the wrong thing because fucking Marty will never, ever let it go. Ever. At all. Like, oh, I don't know, the bubble burst being a comedian. Things like that. No. Once I grab onto something, it's always there. I don't know. I wish I could recount this story because we were laughing whenever it was a couple of weeks ago. We were talking about it. There was something that I brought up that was just years ago, a throwaway conversation that we had. And you were just like, how the fuck did you remember that? I'm like, just remember, I keep everything stored just waiting for that moment. Just waiting. Pinball's elephant. Correct. So there you go. Okay. Before we wrap up, I do want to tell you about what I was doing the last couple of weeks. I was on that trip with Carson, but there were two Pinball Profile played in America tour events. I was in northern Kentucky, in Newport, Kentucky, at a place called Arcade Legacy at Jesse Baker's place. A lot of people came out on a Sunday. A lot of people I didn't know, and it was just wonderful. Great location. I mean, when you see good pinball machines on location, you know, you tip your cap, because that's not always the case. Arcade Legacy was great. A few days later, exact same situation in Kansas City at Solid State Pinball Supply. And Kerry Wing and Nick Greenup, they run it there. And my God, these machines are good. They also fix machines. The reason I bring this up, I want to say hi to those people, because many of them said, hey, Jeff, I love your podcast. I'm like, oh, thanks very much. Yeah, why isn't Marty here? I was like, you fucker, this is a pinball profile. I'm not kidding you. Six people, six for six, all mentioned. Yeah, that time you had Albert on and you were talking about Canadians and stuff. They were all talking about final round. So I thought I would pass it along to you that I'm writing off of your coach. No, no. I call it the pinball profile. I mean, yes, obviously. But no, I think the intersection of the Venn diagram you've got here is competitive pinball players and Final Round, right? We're meant to be a competitive pinball podcast. So I think the chances of you interacting with podcast listeners that are competitive pinball players, chances are they're going to be listening to Final Round over pinball profile. I'd imagine that they would probably listen to both. they would just only remember the ones that I'm in. Anyway, you have a lot of fans out there. Well, I really appreciate it, guys, to be honest. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. No, and I actually genuinely do appreciate it. And, you know, we still do get emails and messages, and we do encourage everybody. It's finalrampinball.gmail.com, finalrampinballpodcast on Instagram, I think something, finalrampin on Twitter. Just if you do reach out to us, we will reply to you. I do really like talking to people that listen to the show. So do it. Okay. Question. Moving forward. You and I both know something I'm about to reveal now to everyone, and this will affect not only this podcast but Pinball Profile. I have been using a software program for, fuck, so many years. That program and its license expires the end of this week. This week! Which means I have to learn a new software program. I'm going to be using a program called Reaper. A lot of voice actors use this program.
    67:20
    I'm sure it's fine. It's just different. I know you like learning things. You will not edit the show because you don't want to. I gladly would love you to edit the show. Some other podcasters have used it. What was that one you guys used? Zencaster. I wasn't a fan because I didn't like the way it edited. Well, it was more so that unless both parties have got really good internet connections, it just doesn't sync very well at all. And you get lots of clicks and pops. Didn't like it. Yeah. And it just would drive me nuts listening back to that. I've done it a few times. Couldn't do it. Some others have done it. That's fine. Just teach their own. I know there's audacity. I kind of know a little bit of audacity. I really don't know the multi-tracking. So, and I'm asking you this for the first time. We haven't even talked about this. Would it be something, the show we're doing right now, there's not a lot of editing. Maybe a few things we cut out, some jokes or some questions, but really you're going to be hearing basically what we said. Do we do it live? Do we Zoom it and do it that way from now on and just do the audio and then people can watch it if they want to? It's easier to edit. It's live. I am quite partial to that as a solution. It would be easier to edit. Let's put it out to our listener and see what he or she thinks. No one's listening to this program. You know that. Have you seen the votes? Do you want us to do a series? semi-professional, semi-edited, produced podcast, or would you like a live show? That's the question for everybody at finalrampingball at gmail.com. Email us and tell us what you think. I don't think people... Okay. We'll see. We'll find out. I joke. I do know there are a couple of listeners. I get that. But at some point, in my shoes, and I'm being serious here for a second, I have to value, like, okay, how much time am I putting into these things? if it is being listened to great that's awesome i don't know what i don't because we don't ask for feedback we don't ask for fucking vote i really don't know how many people listen i kind of have a better idea huh well we don't we don't even know our downloads i guess dennis has sent stuff to us but i don't know what that means well is the other solution that do we you used to get stuff on head to head i get a lot i have a thing on pinball profile that tells me how many episodes or download. I have no idea for final round. No, which I think is fine. I like not knowing. Yeah. What do we do? Would another solution be go monthly? Do we go monthly instead of trying to do it every second week? I'll say this. If I didn't have to edit this show, Marty, I would do it every single week with you. I think we could do it. Maybe it's not two hours. Maybe it's an hour. Maybe it's riffing. I think people like maybe whatever our thoughts are, whatever the news is, maybe our banter, jokes that miss, things like that. You know what? But it's the editing that makes it hard. Let's do it. Maybe it is. Just maybe it is. Every once in a while, we do a Facebook Live video and we can interact that way. Easy done. Can you do it with two people? Yeah, of course you can. On Facebook? Absolutely. You sure? Yeah, gotcha. So you and I would both be on and people could be watching it? You really think it works? I don't think it does. No, yes. I know you can do it because it's just like streaming pinball. But you've got to get the two parties together and then have an output as Facebook. So it can be done. Well, you know, it's the same. It's the same as if I was using XSplit or OBS to do my streaming. I get to output either YouTube, Twitch, Facebook Live, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's all it is. It's just whatever your output is going to be. It's easy. Is the source Facebook?
    70:53
    Oh, my God. Do you know what? No, you sound like those politicians when they are interviewing the likes of Mark Zuckerberg about the Internet. And they go, oh, surely with your advertising, you can take money out of my wallet. No, because your wallet is in your jeans, not actually on the Internet, old timer. So there you go. It is well past. It really is time for you to go there. Some would say 1 a.m. I'm doing this because it's your Queen Elizabeth holiday, and I'm doing this to get this out because I feel guilty about being away for so many days for the, again, three people listening. But I'm curious how this will go. We'll see. I'll let you do a post. Okay. I'll let you – we have both access. You do the post asking what we should do. Okay, done. You're a good man. Awesome. So that's it, everyone. We're done. Thank you. We're spent. Welcome back, Jeff. Great to have you back. Thanks, everybody, for this. More regular now. Yes, which is good. We've applied the Metamucil. We are more regular now. We are going to be back. Less traveling, but it's good to talk to you again. Awesome. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We will speak to you. Possibly you might even see us sometime soon. Watch the boys. Yes.