Heyo, welcome everyone to today in the scene by Indie Arcade Wave. I'm Joe, your host, and here on in the scene we dive into what's happening in the arcade space from new arcade developers, arcade owners and operators, pinball, and just news in the space in general. Now, I did partner up with Compulsal Pinball, we'll throw something in about that a little bit later, but I want to jump into this episode right away. It's Quarters Arcade Bar in Salt Lake City, and I've got the owners with me. They've got a really cool pinball selection, great games, lots of indies, just a really cool all-around bar. All around bar there on my my very high on my list for places to visit in the US. So let's bring in Michael and Katie right now. How you guys doing? Michael O' Doing good. Yeah, good. Thanks for having us. Of course, of course. Thanks for coming on. We've been back and forth a lot about I know you guys have a death ball. So I've been talking to Jules about you guys running death ball tournaments. We got a Pokemon coming for you guys for pinball. So lots of exciting stuff on the horizon. And I mean, you guys have events for you just got a perfect pour PBR edition, which you already had a perfect pour before, right? Yeah, yeah, it's, it's such a good game, you might as well have to I mean, I see no reason. Let's just jump right into you guys. Like who? Who's Michael? Who's Katie? Like, how'd you guys get into arcades? And how'd you get into video games in general? Yeah, so we are husband and wife, fortunately. And we, I was in the, we were both in the food and beverage industry for a really long time. I was a bartender for about a decade before we opened the bar. The arcade bar concept became, we became aware of it on our one year anniversary of dating. We took a trip to San Diego and we stumbled upon Coin Op after we went to a bunch of cocktail bars the night before. The last cocktail bar we went to is called, gosh, what's it called? Noble Experiment. Noble Experiment. Noble Experiment was awesome, super awesome stuff. And then they were like, you gotta check out this. Yeah, because originally the concept that Michael wanted to open for a bar was like a high-end sort of reservation only speakeasy. So that's what we were looking at while we were there, Which is what Noble Experiment is. And we had a great time, drank way too much there, but then they recommended we check out the cocktails at Coin Op, which is an arcade bar. So we made it there about 6 p.m. The next day was the first time we emerged from our hotel room after Noble Experiment took great care of us. And yeah, we were just like, we saw it. And even in our very hungover state, we were like, I think this is what we should do instead, is this, With cocktails because we knew that that was going to be a core part of what we did. Yeah, and I had a partner lined up who was from San Francisco and interested in the high end speakeasy thing. I was in craft cocktails at the time and I came back from that trip and I said, hey, investor, I want to do this instead. And he said, I don't want to do that. But we were on that track and we found over the next three years, found investors, found a space, built it out and finally opened. So we're eight years old now at our downtown location, but it was a good three years before that. So, you know, 11, we're going on 11 years of the project. As far as the arcade and video game side of it, I mostly knew I was mostly into pinball, mostly through playing at bars. Usually like there'd be one pinball machine, one place had three poorly maintained pinball machines, but I still enjoyed the game and played it, even though they like half the time they didn't work when you put quarters in them. We are a team of people who have been playing for a long time now that that used to be normal. And we're super lucky now that we have a bunch of passionate operators who pretty much any city you go to, you find really well maintained pins. And I think it's a big part of the resurgence. Katie grew up in the arcade. I really fell in love with pinball when I was like 21-ish. I was working doubles at a restaurant and I would take my break at the dive bar down the street and eat a burger, drink three beers and play whatever pinball machine they had. The one that sticks out in my mind that made me understand that pinball had rules and objectives This was Lord of the Rings. The Balrog, I was like, oh, you do something and then that guy comes out and then you hit that guy and then you get a lot of points, you know? And yeah, that was the beginning of the journey for me was a little later than. Yeah, I grew up at Pocket Change, Superstition Springs Mall, it's one of my favorite places to go. So I've always... In Phoenix, Arizona. Yeah, one of my favorite childhood memories was the arcade. time in Yonglemon Valley活動 mt. at the library you'll find the historic Bryan Skelton exhibit bag with eight prints of the late hidden Hobies of Title IX, the Achilles' heel. LHA Not usual Well, the locals make the refers to their scale through which he climbed over the diving Richard Pizzo, Miche Bay frustrates thevan pitchman, Brad fermented, Richard French, I can get all the flashing lights and actually enjoy what I'm doing instead of just watching a wheel spin. Yeah. I love what you guys are talking about there, kind of like how everything adapted and changed and like you have a little bit of history in the arcade. Like obviously Katie has a lot. You got into it a little bit later, Michael, but it all came together on a chance trip. And I feel like I hear that so much with arcade owners. They're like, oh, I went on a trip here. I was on a business trip there and I just stumbled across this and I fell in love with 얘기 바�w devil and I'm a fan of the game because I knew that I didn't know enough to do a good job. We are determined to be not only a good bar but also a good arcade. We partnered with a local nickel cade operator, Nickel Mania is the company. Right before we opened, they opened a third location. They went from like offering us a bunch of games to offering us like no games and we were like a month out from opening and like all of a sudden all the games evaporated except for like the handful that we had. Yeah. And so like I spent the next month just driving all over Utah buying anything I could find and then like you know just real life experience teaching myself how to fix stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just remember the day that you drove all the way to southern Utah and back to get Mortal Kombat and it was in like a borrowed truck in the rain and you just had tarps over the game and you came back and we were trying to unload it in the rain and I was just like this is insane. Yeah, that's our original Mortal Kombat. We've got, we still have it. We have actually the whole series. Mortal Kombat 1, 2, 3, 4. Hey guys, quick break. If you want to support the channel, one of the best ways to do that is purchasing your next pinball through Compulsive Pinball. They're helping bring some amazing Stern pinballs to players everywhere, and the next game that they're releasing, you're not going to want to miss. Whether you're looking to add a machine to your home collection or you're an arcade owner or operator, Compulsive Pinball has you covered. They offer special pricing for operators and can handle routing operations for businesses all over the East Coast as well as down in Orlando, Florida. Check out compulsivepinball.com for your next Stern and let them know that you heard about them from Indie Arcade League. I mean, sometimes when you find a game you want, you just gotta jump on it. Like whether it's pouring rain or there's 10 feet of Jon Snow, you just gotta go. It's gonna be gone if you don't. Yeah, I dragged Frogger out of someone's basement by myself and it was in like six inches of Jon Snow and like the dolly is not made for Jon Snow, you know? You know, I'm just like dragging it through this guy's lawn and he didn't help at all. It's getting heavier and heavier every inch because you're packing more Jon Snow on the back of that machine. People always ask like, oh where do you buy the games? Is it their store? And I'm like, no, every single game has like an acquisition story of like how we got it out of somebody's house or basement or barn or where we drove to get it or how messed up the stairs were that they didn't tell you until you got there. Yeah, except for new pinball machines. Yeah. Except for, yeah, new pinball machines, they come real nice on a pallet and new indie games, obviously. Yep. It's so much, that buying experience is a lot nicer. But I do still like, I like the adventure of like meeting some guy, figuring out like, so why do you have this? Why do you have this in your basement? And you know, there's always stories behind that. It's fun. It's great when you find them like, oh, I bought it original or it was my dad's or you know, anything like that. It's so cool to, it's like treasure hunting. It really is. Like you get to find something that has been forgotten in time. And some people are like, just get it out of my basement. You know, I mean, you used to see that a lot. Now it's a little bit, they're like, give me 300 bucks, whatever, take it. But I think that's awesome that you guys acquired so many of your own games and you just kind of like, you like dipped your toes in and you were going to have someone help you out. And then you were like, oh, that didn't work. We're going full in. We're already in We're all in this, we gotta do it. Yeah, and the Nickel Mania folks, they helped us out at first with a few things, like they provided some skeeball claw machines and... Just the stuff they knew would make money. Yeah, and then, but after the first year we... We were like, we'll just do it. Yeah, so now we operate everything in our bar except we have a sticker machine, a local artist sticker machine that's not operated by us, and then we have a photo booth that's J 화장ig first born childhood kid then friruction BUI БИ alors ребенок впереди! J така här tareща со мной! We're so excited to hear that growth and that progression. Talk to us a little bit about like the very beginning because a lot of people watch the show, they want to open an arcade, they're trying to figure it out. You guys had a partner that felt there because you changed the arcade model, you found a new partner. Like what was the early days of finding your building, of building it out, of getting your liquor license? Like what was that process like? Yeah, like Michael said, it was a long process. You know, it was three years from when we took that trip to when we opened the doors. And so it was a process of looking at lots of different real estate. You know, we were very, very close to giving up because, you know, when we were years into something that hasn't come to fruition, obviously you're not making any money starting a business. Like there's no money coming in. You're just, you just want to do it with your free time. literally at the bar that Michael was working at he had a cocktail called moving to Mexico because we said if we don't if the next thing doesn't work out real estate wise we're moving to Mexico and the next thing we looked at ended up being at where we are and we didn't move to Mexico and that cocktail was on our opening menu um yeah and it just like there were a lot of ups and downs especially looking for real estate was tough for us um we you know we we bootstrap we had we We have investors, but it's our investors are literally like my uncle, one of my best friends, one of Katie's best friends, like, and so we don't, we didn't have a huge budget to open. We did a lot of like the demolition and all that stuff ourselves. We signed our lease in September. Katie and I were working in the space every day from September and then construction started in January. Yeah. So our actual contractor came in and started doing real work in January. I mean, we were doing real work, but it was a lot of just like every day just hauling, taking up carpet, taking down drop ceiling, hauling. I almost broke my parents' truck taking loads to the dump. So it was like a lot of blood, sweat and tears. And like the finding the real estate was definitely we had some like things we had our heart set on that fell through. And yeah, we were close to being like, why are we still trying to do this? And then the space we ended up in is a space that had been vacant for 10 years, but historically had a history of being a pretty legendary club called the Manhattan Club, which it was that from like the 1940s until 2008. And then from 2008 until we went in there, it was basically vacant the whole time. And when we started looking three years ago, it was out of our price range. It's a pretty big space and it was just like out of our price range. But then by the time we booked it, a friend of ours had looked at a smaller space in the same building and I was, and he was like, what about the Manhattan Club space? And I was like, it's too much money. And he was like, I don't like, it's pretty cheap. I just, you know, I just walked through there. That was like, it literally fell in my lap at one in the morning after a bar shift. Yeah. And it was so fast at that. Like once we found it, we just we were in it in a month. Like it was very quick where like we had labored over other places and been in months long negotiations. But this one just kind of I think it was just had it been vacant for so long that they were like, they they looked at the price. Yeah, here's a good rental rate and take it over and do what you will. So, and it wasn't, it wasn't in great shape, obviously, it was needed a lot of overhaul, but we're stoked on it now. It's so unique. It's got so much history. Yeah, it's over 100 years old, the building is and we're in the basement, which is cool for an arcade to be like underground in a basement. It's really, it's dark, even if you're there at noon, it's dark in there, which is awesome for the letting We love it. It's awesome. It's a good spot. Yeah, that's great. I mean, it sounds like, you know, it's patience, passion, and then a little bit of luck, right? I mean, you found the space at the beginning, you knew it would be a good spot, but it was way too much. So it eventually got to the point where you could manage it. And I see this so much. There's a couple of arcades that I'm watching right now. Like, they do all the demo themselves, and then they bring it to the next level. And I think that's a great spot. I mean, it's a great spot. I mean, it's a great spot. I mean, it's a great spot. I mean, it's a great spot. I mean, it's a great spot. Right. I mean, you found the space beginning, you knew it'd be a good spot, but it was way too much. So it eventually got to the point where you could manage it. And I see this so much. There's a couple of arcades that I'm watching right now. Like they're they do all the demo themselves and then they bring a contractor in to do something right. Like it's easy to rip it up. I'm not saying it's easy. It's simple to rip it up. Right. You know, you're not worried about it looking bad or anything. Like as long as you don't destroy anything major, you're OK. It can always be fixed. So you do that part because that's such an expensive portion of the construction. Then interfacial poltergeist... Yeah, from a repair standpoint, obviously they break way more than the arcade games. I will say, at least from my perspective, like the fact that there is mechanical elements, like one thing that I heard from someone else that I passed down to my techs now is that Mechanical problems are easy to find and hard to fix. Usually you have to replace parts and stuff. And then electrical problems are hard to find and easy to fix. And that's, I think, true. But I think like having mechanical problems in pinball machines, at least it's easy to find. And luckily now there's good infrastructure, Especially like shout out to Pinball Life and Marco Pinball. Like Marco, if they weren't for Marco Pinball, no one would be operating games at the level we're operating games. That's just true because like getting replacement parks from manufacturers is like not that smooth of a process. Usually, especially if they're a smaller manufacturer, Stern does a pretty good job, but, and you know and not to say anyone customer service is bad or anything like it just a slower process Yeah Being able to Cause it not their primary focus Yeah. And being able to go to Marco's website, Google a part and put it in your cart and order it is huge. And no one could be doing it without those guys, which, so I, that's like a huge thing for me. So I will say like pinball breaks more, but also like it breaks obviously more. When arcades break, it's usually the CRT monitors are going down. And until you've had probably six months to a year of experience fixing old tube monitors, So, like, the, it is, it's, it's like, seems impossible, like, looking at, looking at a neck board or a, you know, the, the board for the CRT monitor is like, it looks like a city of components and it is, and until you're good at diagnosing those things, that's really difficult. It's a harder thing to get your head around, I think. basically like the we love pinball and that's so it's a priority it's a priority for us and like we we just think it's the best game it's very fun we like the physicality of it so it's like like michael's saying like yes it is harder to maintain it's more labor hours like objectively but we think that it's worth the effort and that the effort is learnable it's cool that we get to teach our techs and that they get to teach themselves really um how to fix these things And if you're watching this on your phone, you can't get a pinball machine because it's like Michael says, everything's pinball. There's so much that you fix in a pinball machine that can apply to fixing something in your house. Right, because pinball breaks, you know, the boards break, too. That's less common, but you are doing board work with pinball machines and that, you know, if you do, if you can do board work in a pinball machine, you can fix your heater, air conditioner, your house or your ice machine or your car or your car. Pinball, pinball, pinball, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a ton of you know, electro, there's a lot of mechanical, there's physical, there's, there's just so much in it that you're right. I mean, if you can fix pinball, you can fix a TV if you can, if my stance is if you can build a computer, you can start working on a on a pinball. Like it's really not that much different. Like once, once you're comfortable enough to do that, because I know a lot more people that have built computers than have worked on pinballs, right. So yeah, if If you've gotten into that level, you absolutely can start working on a pinball. And then once you can work on a pinball, like you said, you can fix your fridge, you can fix your car, you can do anything else. And I think that's... Save lots of money at the bar that Michael can fix at the bar. Absolutely. Because pinball techs are pricey. I mean, it's a niche thing that not a lot of people can fix. And having that skill is excellent, especially when you're running so many of them. And I've seen plenty of videos of you fixing like your Independence Day, which you never see on location. All of these are great games to have in an arcade. You mentioned already, Michael, that Lord of the Rings was like the first game for you that like really like put pinball on the map. Like there's rules, there's games, there's a lot of stuff you can do here. Fantastic game. My wife and I both love that game. Godzilla did that for me. I'm curious for you, Katie, like what was the game that like puts you over the edge? Were you like, okay, there's rules, there's depth here? Yeah, so I always loved pinball growing up. My dad was really into pinball, so that was something I always liked. And so I always played it, but I think truly the first game that I was like, oh, we've got objectives here, just like any other game was when we were playing at another bar before we opened. The creature from Black Lagoon is the one where I was like, okay, I'm working towards objectives. And it was actually really fun because we played that game a ton before we opened. Then, you know, years go by, we open and we finally bought one. And I played it again after playing pinball a lot more and I was like, oh, this game is so much easier than when I was playing it years ago and was able to like get all the achievements I like could never get before, which was a fun experience of being like, oh, I'm objectively better at pinball now than I was before. But yeah, that was the game that definitely like I started learning the rules of the game and tried to complete the objectives. That's, that's cool. I mean, that's, that's a unique game. Nah, I don't, I don't know a lot of people that have said that that's the game that like gets them into pinball. I think that's, that's cool. And yeah, I mean, once you've played some more games and newer games and you, you like really start to pick up on the rules, once you have that knowledge, like you can just start playing and be like, oh, I hit this shot a couple of times that lights up. Then I hit that, then this goes, then this, and you can start building off it, especially once you understand like what lights are lit and what lights are not and what's flashing and. How to slow the ball down and not always just going as fast as possible. You know, those flipper mechanics, like learning when to not flip. You know, I think those are all like important skills that when you first are in front of a pinball machine, you're just you're just flipping and you feel like it's chaos. But like, you do realize, like, actually, it's more like pool. You have a lot of control over the geometry if you're able to control the ball. And sometimes it's chaos. Like, that's part of the game. That's part of the fun. But like, truly, once you start being like, oh, I am. nepal.ienongo.edu With prestigios Acala and Coach Krdigan the Virt apacit Почему did you cut down on shaking? That's what I'm working on. I'm not great at that one. I want to be known as the world's best dead passer. Oh, well you're the best. I'm so good at not. I'm really good at tilting. I like, I'm with the machine and my wife always says this, she's like, why are you beating it up? But like, I do it a lot. I, you know, I always test every machine when I go in. I always, I always check it. If I tilt on that first ball, I know I can't move the machine at all. Yeah, I do. We do like to say that we have the loosest tilts in town. We keep them loose. We could we could I mean, like, and that comes from mostly like, never wanting to feel like, you know, if I ever before I understood pinball, like, if I ever tilted a game, I was like, this game just stole my money, you know. And so like, we actually do. I know a lot of locations are the opposite. They have tight tilts. And I do think there's a lot of logic in that. Just like the only people who are really nudging are people who know how to play. But there is a group of people who are trying to learn how to nudge. And if your tilt is super tight, then they're just going to they're never going to like get good at that skill. So we we keep our shit pretty loose, which I don't know. I like it. It's more fun. It's more fun. I mean, I don't want people throwing the games around. I don't need to punish you for trying to save your ball too hard. You know, those are those are always the best moments to when you save a ball and you're like, Oh my gosh, how did I do that? I can't believe I did that. Like, you get the double danger and you're just like, yeah, yeah. More nudging. Just play the game out. It's always fun when that happens. And I saw you guys. You guys run leagues, right? Yeah. Okay, so tell us a little bit about your league structure. How did you get it started and how do you run them? So we have two. We started, I was kind of not into the IFPA like ranked try hard stuff originally. So we started for the first few years we were open, we didn't do any IFPA tournaments. We started with selfie leagues, which was like pretty popular. I'd say definitely during COVID was a popular format. Now we do we basically host a monthly at both locations. That's the Silver Ball Sinners Club is the name of that. We named it that because we used to do them on Sundays and we're in Utah. So like playing on a Sunday, like a little sinner, you know. But now we play those on Wednesdays. It was just a better day for most people. But we found that like doing the IFPA sanctioning brings a lot more people in even if it's not super important to me what my ranking is in the world it is important to a lot of people like you say if that is having that goal of like getting to the top of state and getting to you know maybe going to nationals and stuff that's important for a lot of people. I think it is kind of like a double game almost like when you've got insider connected going and you're playing pinball that you're playing against your Time to Lock Pins Up and Play Home Simple Hi Lacks Er confirmed I heard this matchup interesting. We're a team of three, and we're going to be playing in Sugar House. Those are like four or five hour tournaments. Then we do, we have only one done one season, but the other thing we do is Barfly League. That league I made up as a, it's not IFPA and it's geared towards people who are more new to pinball. and it's like the the commitment every we play every thursday when barfly is running and that is at different bars throughout the city i also because i also wanted to highlight pinball not just where at my house but everywhere in the city um and then the other thing about it is like it's a it's a way less way less of a commitment more of a party less of a commitment um it's the barfly leagues are like maybe an hour long So like if you're more casual or you're just getting into it and you're but you like want to do competitive stuff and you don't care about IFPA rankings like the bar the bar fly league is for you. Yeah, it was honestly so fun. I do not like competing in pinball. It's just I'm just not interested in it because I'm just not a very competitive person. This was so fun. Like Michael said, it's a short commitment. It's like an hour. And then you could continue to hang out and drink and party or go home, like whatever you're feeling that night. But it got you out of the house, got you playing pinball. Also, because there's no IFPA ranking, we could help each other learn the games. And so it was really fun because it was much less competitive. Like, of course, you still wanted to win. It's still a competition. So you weren't coaching people during their game. But after the, sometimes you could, but like afterwards you could be like, hey, how did you do that? Or how does this game work? And then the people who are more senior and that know pinball better than they could teach the newer people. And like everybody got better throughout the league and then it ends in a big party. And it was, I think people should do it other places because Michael thought really, he took many things into consideration and how he did the format before we did it. And I think it like turned out so good and it was so fun and such a good way for people who aren't into the competitive nature of pinball but still want a motivation to play and get better. It was super fun. So we're definitely going to do it again. Yeah. And then, like she said, we have a private room in our bar downtown that is rentable, but we basically just like the first league was 24 people, right? So with the 24 of us just like partied in the private room while the finals happened or so the two top ranked teams played each other while everyone else got drunk and you know they got drunk too. But yeah it was just it's good to do a team format there's less pressure on your newbie players and then like also it's like yeah you pair your worst player with your best player and then And then sometimes your worst player is the one who won the game. Yeah, and then they get to be like, damn, I did better than the person that owns an arcade bar. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that sounds super, super fun. I love the, I love the both sides of it. Like, you want to bring more people into pinball, you want to make it simple, you want to make it fun, like it's less pressure, less serious, but then you also have that other side that's like, this is serious, like we're IFPA, like if you care about your ranking, this is where you want to Live Show Preview We're going to be bringing it to Expo this coming year. So tell us a little bit about that process, how you've been building it. And I mean, what's it about? Like, what's your theming for it? Yeah. So I started the homebrew as a COVID project. You know, it was the bars shut down and I was losing my mind and needed a distraction. And we had been to we had been to Chicago Expo. We'd like to thank Kemp the and Rick za for all the time. And Kathy We're all in this together, you're really clever. I heard we're into your homebrewing su convenors now. Are you launching bringing new resources to your около? Kemp. If I could just call this guys, a fourth пробawty new yo, don't often but In the process, I talked to, I wish I knew his name. There was a dude, he was super nice. He was doing a, it basically was like a sequel to Taxi that was based in Detroit. And it was also like a music pin. So like his idea was like, it's kind of like Crazy Taxi. It's a sequel to the Pinball Machine Taxi. And you're driving around Detroit. And as you play, you're hearing music from famous like Detroit musicians. I can't remember what the game was called or the guy's name. I'm sorry, maybe he'll see this. But he was super nice, told me about it, educated me on P3. I think FAST barely existed or in 2018, I don't even know if FAST even was a thing yet. So I built my game in P3. That was like, that's what TNA was built on. That's like, everyone was using P3 back then. I think most of the scene is using fast now. But yeah, fast forward six years. The the the wiring, the mechanical stuff, all that stuff was pretty easy for me because I, you know, I do tech work. So I understand the electricity stuff. I'm a big fan of the stuff. I understand the physical stuff. But the code has been a huge roadblock. And basically every winter, we're in Utah. And every winter, I kind of would like take a swing at code, get frustrated and quit. And, and I will say like, the guys who finish games usually have a background in code. Because it's, it's kind of it, even though MPF does So, that was a lot of simplification from like, if I was writing Python from scratch, it is still like, it's a whole language you gotta learn. It's the same thing like if you're a pinball nerd and you're talking to your friends about like, yeah, if you hit the right orbit and combo with the right ramp and this light's on a hurry up and that's just like jiverish to someone who doesn't know like orbit. 100%. Yep. Robotics Past тебе, I don't care how many times I'm banging my head against the wall. I'm going to bang my head against the wall until there's a crack in the wall, and then I'm going to get through the crack of the wall. And I am happy to say that I'm making real progress. The game now has a full first mode. It's got mode qualifying in it. It's got three different skill shots. It's got a multiball programmed. So I'm hoping to wrap up code this spring. It's still, it's in its second Whitewood. I haven't, we haven't done the playfield art yet. And whether that's the stretch goal is playfield, final playfield in for Expo. But right now I'm just coding basically every day that I'm not, or every night after work, I just do a little bit of code and make a little progress. You should talk about the theme. Oh yeah, the theme is, theme's SLC Punk, which is an indie film based in Salt Lake City. I'm into punk music and have been for my whole life. And it was basically I was thinking about like what I would want out of a pinball machine if I made it And one of the things that occurred to me that was like that a manufacturer could never do is put like several just different bands and a bunch of music into one machine because licensing is such a nightmare So the it's it's a it's a movie music pin hybrid. The music is like the way it will work is that you'll be able to choose a bunch of from a bunch of different sub genres of punk music. So if you want to listen to punk music or like pop punk music while you're playing, you can do that. You want to listen to some more like hardcore music, you can and with your when you like your character select is your playlist select. We've got a ton of great stuff. But the idea is to have, you know, like 100 songs in there so that one for me, like it's going to live in my house forever. So like so I don't get sick of whatever music is playing, because even if, like, you know, even if there's a good amount of music in a pin, the songs get repetitive if you play it a lot. So that was one approach. And then doing the SLC punk with the with the indie movie. That movie is awesome. I love it. I watched it for the first time in college on acid and it stuck with me forever and it also is just like it's a good it's just a good story and like it gives good structure to the rules of the game so like the idea is like you're a punk you're not one of the characters you're a punk in solid city you play through it and there are modes where you are playing like I call it I'm a fan of the old crew modes where you're like building your crew basically like you meet heroin Bob and you play through his mode and then like once you've played through heroin Bob's mode then heroin Bob's on your crew. So yeah it's been fun I've got a lot of work to do still but it will be at Expo that's happening because it's far enough along now that even if I stopped right now I think I'd be happy actually showing it to the world a little bit. Um, so yeah, it'll be there. That's awesome. I love, I love the passion behind the theme and like learning it. I, you're so right with the, the code is usually what holds people up and people that finish pins fast already know how to code. Yeah. Um, or they outsource it. Right. I've, I've already talked to, uh, three different home brewers at this point and all of them are like, if you can't do it, like just find someone else to do it. Like if you want to do it fast, find someone else. I've never worked out. So I may be the spot for you then. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think even I think even for people who code, it still is a lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of code. It's so I think I think everyone like I had a few friends that are, you know, coders by profession. And I was like, you could help me do the thing. And I think like once they saw the scope of work, they were like, I mean, I get paid. I get paid lots of money. Yeah, I do this all day and I get paid a lot of money to do it. So yeah, but we're I'm doing it's it's it's definitely it is learnable. I think I would like to make MPF for dummies videos that are like, less because even like there's a lot of tutorial videos, but those guys are guys who code right? And they don't realize like, that they're using over. Well, they don't realize they're using I get help because the discord, the Trident discord, Homebrews discord is super helpful and I bug those guys probably more than they'd like me to. But even now when I kind of speak the language, I'm like not fluent. And so like a lot of times I'll be like, I'm trying to do this. Why can't I do this? And they'll be like, well, you have to do this, this and this. And then I'm like, wait, wait, but how though? So it is like, I kind of want to make a video series of like, really like, hey, you don't, I'm not like layman's terms. Just very, very clear, like no, no jargon, like, and explain like that, because also, I think part of the problem is like, not problem, but they'll tell you how to do a thing, but it's like a teach a man to fish kind of thing where I'm like, but why does it work that way? And I think that was his biggest hump is that like I'm the kind of person where like I need to understand the whole thing before I so I'm always like but why like why does that why is that true you need to understand the little intricacies so that the whole picture makes sense to you exactly and and the why is becoming more clear for me now so yeah and you ask why enough times and all of a sudden then they'll say something and it'll just click We're going to have a little bit of a pinball show for you. You'll be like, oh, because this, this, this will lead to this thing. You're like, got it. Okay. Now I don't need to ask you why this time. Well, and it's weird too, as like a pinball player, you think you're thinking like the machine, but then you're like, oh no, actually it's- That's not how the machine thinks. Yeah. And it's like super interesting. Like we have Iron Maiden here and like I'll always, like if I'm ever doing a light show or whatever, I'll be like, okay, what does Iron Maiden do? You know, this is a professional product and you're like, oh yeah, you know, like there's a lot of stuff that you're like, oh, and cuz when you, I think when you step up to a pinball machine, you assume that you're running like a mode, like you're in the qualifying mode. But now when I look at a pinball machine, I'm like, okay, six modes are running right now. And they're, and they all work together. And then, and then it's like, oh, now I got into a mode, like a real, like what we think of as modes. I'm into a mode and then I can be like, oh, when this mode starts, that mode ends, that mode ends, this mode isn't running anymore, you know, like and paying attention to that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it helps having a finished game here that you can go, how does this game do it? And then you like, like Michael saying, you notice things that you've never thought about before because it wasn't important in playing the game, but it's important in how the game functions. Yeah, and that's a that's a great game too. I mean, that's the Elwin homebrew that was an archer that turned into his first, you know, like, that's such a good pin to have as an inspiration because it started as a homebrew. So yeah, that's one of our one of our favorites. It was a workhorse for us forever on the floor. And we came to great game. We retired her and now she lives with us. Easier life for now. I love all the pin we've talked. Super cool. I'm excited for you guys to get that Pokemon pretty soon here. I'm gonna have to have to ask you when you get it and set it up and let me know how it plays. Because by that time you will have found a pro in the area that you played and you'll be able to compare it to your premium and see what you think. Yeah, one just landed at, there's a brewery here that has a bunch of pins called Keto's. And they just got theirs like yesterday. So I haven't we haven't been over there yet. But Well, yeah, well, we're definitely gonna play it before before the premium gets here. There's a couple that just landed by me. So I'll be I'll be running out pretty soon. And the next like day or two here. I'm gonna go play. So yeah, sweet. Let's let's talk indies. You guys have a great selection of indies. You have a great selection of games in general. But you've got a correct me if I'm wrong. You've got death ball, killer queens, switch and shoot you do still have So, you have the Alan 1 games, because you had Avian Knights and Asteroids, right? We, so we don't have Switch and Shoot. No, Perfect Pour. Perfect Pour. And then Alan 1, right now we have, so we bought an Asteroids, and we have their missile command on test, basically. We're all in one is based here. They're super. I love what they're doing. I think what they're doing is like what should be done is like you're not you're trying to make like a retro style game made for the arcade. Yeah. But you're just, you know, making it, you know, a little more appealing than like the 16 bits bright stuff or, you know, so Yeah, so and then do we have another indie? We also have Armed in Gelatinous. Oh, Armed in Gelatinous is our rarest indie. Those guys are awesome. Our rarest indie is the game that our employee made. Oh, yeah. We have a Pico 8 cabinet that our lead, well, yeah, lead tech, Garrett, he's made some games in Pico 8, which is, do you know about Pico 8? I'm actually not that familiar. Basically, it seems like a kind of like an MPF, but for 2D, 2D video games. And basically, yeah, I mean, I wonderville does lots of games with Pico 8. It's a very easy platform for developers. And it just kind of plugs right into a simple cabinet. Like, you don't need to do anything complex to build a cabinet. I mean, it's basically a Raspberry Pi at that point. So it's Yeah, so it's a very easy entry level. Yeah, and his, he's made a couple games. He's like into doing real simple like one button plus joystick input type thing. So he that's like a thing he likes to do on the side is mess around in Pico 8. And so yeah, we have a Pico 8 cabinet that we just changed the marquee out on almost like almost like a like a Neo Geo or whatever. So. Right, awesome. I mean, I love that you guys have that many games. You've got events coming up around them. You're going to be doing tournaments for death ball pretty soon here. And you've got Killer Queen tournaments that you run regularly. You've got like your big annual one coming up here in the spring. So just tell us a little bit about why you guys were interested in the indie scene, what the indie scene has like been for the bar and why you continue to support the indie scene. Yeah, I mean, it's, I think that it's just sort of an ethos of ours that we like supporting people who are being creative and who are bringing new things to our industry, whether that's in alcohol or on the gaming side. And it's really fun to see how people are taking these older games and using them as inspiration. Like I love that we have Killer Queen, but we also have Joust, which is a very clear inspiration for a lot of the Killer Queen mechanics. So you can kind of see and play where the indie game kind of was birthed from, and then you can play the newer version. And it keeps our arcade fresh because we don't want to be Dave & Buster's. No shade. I love going to a big fancy arcade with the huge games. I think it's very fun. But we like to have that more retro feel and a lot of the indie games do that while also being a modern game. And so it really works with our vibe because we like to do the more vintage thing. But it's so nice to have some games that are truly modern games because you know we we're kind of we're far enough along in our existence that we're catering to people who've maybe never been to an arcade. Like quarters might be the first game or first arcade that people have gone to. It definitely is the first time people have used a coin operated games because even though even if they did go to an arcade growing up they used a swipe card or it was free play or whatever. So yeah, all of those reasons, like it's a really natural fit for our brand to have those indie games in the bar and they're really fun. So yeah, and I think that's what we do is if we think a game is fun, then we will have that game. Yeah. And I think the catalyst for indie games specifically was armed and gelatinous. Those guys like literally just showed up at our bar one day and demoed us on it on we We had at the time we had like what we call the living room which was like a console gaming area and they just demoed us on the console game version of it and they were like we want to make cabinets we're trying to get people we're basically trying to get pre-sales for cabinets and you know just like seeing their passion and like and also understanding as someone who like has opened a business like understanding how much work you do Free work. Understanding how much free work someone does and just like and and we told we were like I think we were one of their first sales yeah because and we were like yeah we'll buy it and they were like you want to buy it you like want one yeah when you when you make this we'll buy one and he was like and then they were you know stoked on it and and it's cool to be in a position to be because it's like you know these games are quite expensive indie games are expensive because they like we talked about there's a lot of free We were before they make that sale there's so much so many hours they put into it they need to make it worth their while to create the physical game and it is like for us as a person that would be like kind of a it would be too much money to spend but as us as a business we're able to like have more flexibility because we're gonna make money on the game I guess uh I lied Killer Queen was our first indie game um yeah and then Killer Queen just it just hit right and before we opened we did a Kickstarter for the Killer Queen um we basically said It was it was basically an advertising strategy. But also, we couldn't afford to buy the Killer Queen by ourselves at that point. I mean, they were like 14 or what were they? 10 or 14? Yeah, 14K. Yeah. And we we were broke. We were over budget on the construction and everything. We were like broke. And we were negative money for sure. And and we just we approached the Kickstarter just because, like, I think people don't like to do Kickstarters for businesses. We approached it as like, hey, we're gonna do this eventually. We're gonna buy this game eventually. But like, if you pre buy some merch for our business, then we will, you know, we'll have it for opening and we we raised the money and we had it for opening. And like after making all the merch and stuff, kickstart, like we definitely didn't, we didn't buy it for free. But we got helped us get the word out on the business, which helped us We're gonna be really busy and then like- Yeah I think it was on, you know, since this is specifically an indie game podcast, like that was a big basis of like our success was promoting this indie game to promote ourselves. So it really is quite tied to our success and we, I mean we have- Well in our core, our core, like our very first core regulars were all Killer Queen regulars. Yeah and that some of those people now own their own bar called Thieves Guild in town, it's a cidery. Yeah. S'T the Well, does this fit my taste? When I play it, do I think it's fun? And that's always important. Even with pinball machines, we are not a... A lot of pinball bars just bring in every new Stern and that is... We don't do that. If I play the game and it doesn't jive with my taste, then I don't buy it because I I think part of having the bar having personality is also just like curating. Yeah. Curating what your collection and you're saying, hey, like my techs have spent hours and hours and hours getting Independence Day working because I think Independence Day is a good game. It's a cool game. Yeah. You know, so that's like, yeah, I think that's part of it. And so yeah, I'm very curious about four player death ball. I am definitely, I want to get a Black Emperor as a game that I never pulled the trigger on but like I played and had a ton of fun on it and just, God, what a addicting, like I was like, oh, I gotta try again. Yeah. So yeah, there's there's more plans for the future of like bringing in more stuff. And yeah, we love it. Yeah, I think there's there's a lot that you said there that like, really resonates me with the resonates with me as like an indie developer is like, the time that people don't see on these games. I mean, we were, we were working on Galactic Battleground for like, close to two years before it was really even released. And before that was a year or two of, you know, all the people that I worked with on it, Kelly and Dylan, like they were building it before I was even involved, you know? So it's like, there was so much time that went into it and then building the first cabinet, we had someone come and build it and then, you know, moving to a manufacturer and, and shipping these games and building these games and iterations and changing, like you're always working on the code. We we like seven or eight years in and there we still tweaking stuff Like it it never it never over And I know Rob is working on it from Japan like here and there He working on Armageddon Latinus and all these games they take so much time It's good to hear someone like really see that, like see that extra work. And when you mentioned like Rob and I'm assuming it was both Rob and Anthony that were there showing it off. Like you saying, yeah, we'll buy one. I can just, I can see Rob and Anthony's face like so clearly just like, that's it? Nobody Hecciopoulos. Thank you all for watching this episode, which is recorded on the 50th anniversary of Mrs Book Who List dad and mom at大概 commun Classana on June 25th, 2016. The Only regions that can subtitle such titles. Viewers can read and danny bhairatsky.com. Thanks. Cheers. I have no you know, underground Warsaw so that we didn't even get any a boil on yune and his wife for like two weeks and all of that. We wanted to be authentic, but that was our goal from the beginning is we didn't want to change the game. We wanted to take the classic game and just bring it into now. You know, we wanted to make it modern, make it for player. And they gave us the assets. We rebuilt the game from scratch. All the code is brand new, but we had people who have owned the game. We actually we sold one of our food fight frenzies to Jeremy. I did an interview with him. He holds the world record for food fight. He was like, this feels exactly like the classic game, like the throwing. And that's the highest praise we could ask for. Yeah, that's the recipe for success is like, taking the best parts of the game and not changing those parts, like the things that made it successful in the first place, the things that made it fun in the first place. Don't change that. Yeah, you can change some other mechanics. But like, if it feels the same, like, that's why I love playing joust and Killer Queen together is like, it feels the same. pipe fun If you can be like, cause what I like with death ball, I'm like, you ever played Rocket League? Yeah. And I'm like, this is like Rocket League. And like for a lot of people, they're like, oh, like they, then they get it because they're like, well, I already, I already, I get the point. And like, I also, but also I think it registers like, oh, I see where the fun is, you know, it's not like, like, I don't know. It is interesting as our demographics age, like there's, we're starting to get to a point where people don't even, people have, people have nostalgia for like Donkey Kong and Pac-Man, but only like secondhand nostalgia. They're like, my dad liked this and I sort of played it and, and now I'm playing it nostalgically via my father. And, and I just think like. We're so honored to be here to switch to where we truly have a large group of customers with no nostalgia. Like they like it because it's vintage and it's older and like growing up I always loved things that were vintage and older. And it's cheap entertainment. And it's cheap entertainment but it's crazy that like the nostalgia was a big part of it for us but like for a lot of our customers now we're just we're the introduction. Like we're creating the new memory of an arcade which I'm happy to do but it's definitely different from when we started eight years ago. Yeah, there's a lot less, there's a lot less people being like, oh, you have to have this. Yeah, they don't know what they're asking. They're like, you need a GORF. And like, no one's asked me for GORF in years now. It's a cool game to find. But yeah, it's absolutely not necessary. I mean, you need Pac Man, you need Galaga, you need Donkey Kong, you kind of got it covered, right? Like, those are the huge ones. As Michael touched on earlier, we're also curators of our games. We don't like to bring in a game because it's supposed to be a game that's good. We bring it in if we think it's fun. We love Moon Patrol. I don't care if people don't know what Moon Patrol is. It's a really fun game and when you put your quarters in it, it's fun to play. And so to us, it was important for us to have Moon Patrol just because we liked it. And so a lot of our games are like that where we have a good experience playing it and I'm like, I don't even necessarily care if there's the brand recognition of it or if it's a rare game or any of We're here to give people a good night. And so we want to put games on the floor that not because they're legendary, but because they're literally just fun to play. Cause that's what we're, that's more important to us is that the games are fun. We have a couple of games that aren't that fun to play that are legendary. Yeah. Well, should I say it? I'll say it out loud. Tron is not fun. Tron is not fun to play, but it looks good. But people really like to see it. I like this one far more than I like Tron. I think that game is a lot more fun. Yeah, Tron's aesthetic fits our aesthetic. We'll keep it because it looks good. But that's just one game. Like you mentioned with Moon Patrol, like that's one of my favorite cabinet arts of all time. It pops, it's such a great game. Yeah, the art is gorgeous. Yeah, you mentioned that you're into punk, right? And that just made me think of one of the indie developers, Karisyn Bryan, who made Throwback Highlight Heroes. She always mentions how like, she wanted to get into this space and develop these games because it's like the punk scene of the arcade, right? Like nobody's making their own stuff. Like this is such a such a small community of people that are doing it. And it's so cool that like, I had to give her a shout out for that. And, and I'm excited that you guys have all these indies and you're promoting all these indies. So tell me about, there were two things that I wanted to talk to you about. That's the Perfect Pour Paps Blue Ribbon combo that you guys are doing, which should be very soon. I'm trying to get this episode out before the event. And then the second one was your Killer Queen event that you have in the spring. So tell us about those events and what can people expect for them? Yes, we'll talk about the Perfect Pour first, because that's coming up next week. We already had a Perfect Pour because, you know, we love Tapper. Our staff loves Tapper obviously because they're bartenders so they like to compete on that game. But Perfect Four was really successful for us and really, you know, honestly made a lot of money because it's fun to play. Again, if it's fun to play, it makes money. And then when a PBR edition came out, we were like, this is totally worth getting even though we already have it, getting the PBR edition. We've had PBR on tap the whole time we've been open. And so they were really so good. Yeah, PBR is my shitty beer of choice and has been since I was... He's like, PBR glass, can't be used yet. Yeah. But yeah, we've had PBR on tap. There's very few things that have been day one things that are still there and PBR is one of them. And yeah, so when the when the pap we have a Budweiser tapper and when and but we don't carry Budweiser and when the PBR Perfect Pour came out, I was like, I gotta do that. We gotta do it. And our Perfect Pour, just like some inside baseball for people who are interested in the business side of things like our Perfect Pour. Um, our arcades make way less money than like, like skeeball is king. Um, arcades make way less money than, uh, pinball machines. Part of that is like, we can't, I can't charge you a dollar a play on, uh, Donkey Kong, cuz that game will probably kick your ass. So, and then you won't feel like you got ripped off. So part of that is that, but, um, pinball make out earns arcade games. And usually my measure for success on pinball machines, if I'm like, wow, this game was totally worth it, it totally was a good decision to buy this game is if the game pays itself off in one year. And I think, you know, with a $10,000 game or whatever, that's 10,000 plays in a year, which is huge. And Perfect Pour did that for us. Perfect Pour paid itself off in one year. So then when it was like, do we want to reinvest in that? But it was like, obviously, yes, let's do that. Yeah. And then we're working with our local PBR reps. I mean, we're raffling off a PBR bike. We've got some signs, we've got other swag. So it's basically just a party. We're going to have a little bit of a competition. Jo Bauer, Se활 Media, Silver Arrow &isse δια Power нравится ToutsCanada And then you'll get an extra raffle ticket if at the time of the bike raffle you're on the leaderboard for for Perfect Poor or the Godzilla leaderboard. So yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree. Perfect Poor is an awesome game. It's super fun. I love playing it at IAAPA. That was when I first got to play it with Dan. I've been, I've known Dan since the beginning. That was like when we first brought Galactic Battleground to Midwest Gaming Classic, the first time we showed up publicly, we met Dan and we met Tony. And actually we met Shane and Dave too from Cosmotrons and like that was it like that was the original crew and I love that everybody's still making games and they're still growing. I'm gonna talk to Tony soon about the four player too. I'm very excited about that. Tell us a little bit about your KQ event because there are lots of arcades around the country that have KQs that do their annual event and it's always like the big event of the year for them. So what is what's special about your guys' KQ event? Yeah, so we basically let them take over. We have two locations, Sugar House is our second location. We basically let the Killer Queen folks absolutely dominate the space at our Sugar House location. We did five cabinets. No, four, and then we went down to three. Did we go down to three from four? I thought we did five at one point. No, I don't think it was five. Yeah, but at one point we did four different cabinets. I think we're settled on three now. But people come from all over the country. It's a lot of fun. It's kind of weird to have like once a year regulars from New York, you know, but we do. And then they're with us for like three whole days. Yeah, those guys play, we open early for them and they play from early to close and they, those guys are monsters. Our Killer Queen scene is super strong. They, those guys really care about the game. They travel a lot to play. So they've done all, I mean, they've, we've let them mod our cabinet. Like, so they have like, they, they have all, like they can pull crazy statistics. And I'm like, you know, this is your game more than like I own it. But it's yours, you know, so do what you want with it. And for Sparlic City is the event that they do. And not to say that it's not work for us, because obviously we have to move games around and schedule and do all of those things. But it is a lot of work on their end. They're the ones who bring in the cabinets. They secure them. They put them in the truck. They bring them inside. They hook them up to the monitors. So it really is they go they go above and beyond to make it like a really, really good event because they do have all like cool things with statistics, cool things with streaming. They really go They're streaming setups legit. Like they take all that really seriously. They like, they hardwire in, there's like a bunch of wire in our ceiling and that they just like just lives there all year round. So they can pull it down and like direct hardwire into their stream. And yeah, and I think they, because they go to a lot of tournaments, they also have priorities for what they think is important In this regard, I have an absolute I think the only credit I take is like we let them do whatever they want. Yeah, we let them fully dominate one of our locations for three days or whatever. But it's... Yeah, they're always very thankful to us because we're pretty laid back and easygoing about stuff. But I'm like, you guys are doing all the work. Yeah. We're like, thank you. Yeah, it's awesome. They do a really good job. Yeah. I mean, you guys supply the location, you supply at least one machine, you supply all the cables, you supply the beer. I'm a big fan of the beer. I mean, like, what more could you ask for? Right? Yeah, we get them drinking real early because in the morning they're all serious. They're so serious. Yeah. But our bartenders are pretty good at being like, you sure you don't want a little bit of whiskey in that coffee? Jolly, who's one of their favorite bartenders, he's got a line of like, you want to make it fun? Yeah. People order a liquid death and they'll be like, you want it to be fun though? And he'll put a shot of vodka in someone's liquid death. It's awesome. We are vodka water. Yeah. That's awesome. I'm really glad that you guys do stuff like that. It's cool that you've built this huge community, this Killer Queen community, this indie community, this pinball community. It really seems like that's a big deal to you guys. And I hope it just continues to grow. I hope you guys just continue to have success and everything just keeps going And now, we're gonna get to the pinball show. As it's going, I guess that's all I had for you. I mean, it's a lot. We've been talking for over an hour. I'm super glad we have. So just go ahead, shout out your community. Shout out anybody that you wanna talk to. Like, just give final remarks, anything that we've missed that you wanted to talk about. Let's shout out Utah Pinball. He does home pinball rentals in the Valley. His name is Kelly Thompson. I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm a fan of Kari's work. I think she's a very good person. She's a very good person. She is a very good human. And he cares about the community a lot. Our pinball regulars, especially Crystal Corey, who runs a lot of tournaments locally, especially like the tournaments that turn out, usually a more niche audience like women's tournaments and all ages tournaments. I was also the lab in Ogden. Nate Smith is the reason we don't have a quarters in Ogden. But he's a huge, he's a big time pinballer and is doing the work in Ogden, which is our like, basically Utah's second city. And yeah, we mentioned Kiyo's earlier. Great place to We have a lot of great places to play. Yeah, just if you're ever in Salt Lake, come see us at one of our locations. We try to be an excellent bar and an excellent place to play. We take great pride in our games working. We spend a lot of money and time and effort to make sure when you come in, the games are as working as possible. We have texts every single day. So when you come in, they'll be working games to play, and you can know that if a game isn't working, it'll probably be working tomorrow. So yeah, we'd love to see anybody come out to the bars and support any of those awesome businesses that we mentioned. But yeah, just get out there, support indie games, tell operators that you like their indie games so that we know if offered to run tournaments. Well, and drop quarters. The ultimate thing that tells me whether something is successful or not is if you put quarters in it. If you are supportive of the arcade industry continuing, right now, right now, Allen 1 and indie games are the only thing carrying the banner into the future. And so if you want this to continue, if you want to have nostalgia for something in 20 years from now, drop quarters in the game, show up to the show up to the league nights. That's the best thing you can do. Awesome. Well, I'm going to throw all you guys' social media and website links down in the description so people can check you out. Hopefully visit the arcade if they visit Salt Lake. Thank you guys so much for your time. I really appreciate talking with you and sharing your stories and sharing your love for pinball and indie games and all this stuff. I know you and I have been going back for a while. We've been talking for a few years now and it's great to finally be working with you. I'm super excited for this game to get to you guys and super excited for all the future of all the indies because there's a lot more that we can talk about. I mean, you've got it. You've got a couple. There's a bunch left. And for anyone that's still watching, don't forget to like share and subscribe. It helps us a ton. The wave will continue to grow. We can all ride it together. We mentioned Allen One. I'm working with them. And if you're looking for a new Stern pinball, reach out to Compulsive Pinball. I'll have a link below so you can check them out. We're selling all the new Sterns. And that's all I got for you. So until next time, peace. Alright, guys! Click to Subscribe For More Video Thanks For Watching Lancer imaginadora