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The Pinball Show Ep 20: Shocked Or Awed For Pinball Loot Crates?

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 25m·analyzed·Jul 6, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Episode 20: Industry updates, loot crate strategy debate, Stern code updates, and marketing discussion.

Summary

The Pinball Show episode 20 covers industry updates from Jersey Jack (Keith Johnson on Family Guy, Pirates wizard mode, upcoming innovations), American Pinball (Hot Wheels customization and code updates), Stern (Stranger Things .96 code update with shooter knob fixes, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1.04, new 'The Find' loot crate promotion), and extended discussion about loot crate mechanics in pinball marketing. Hosts debate whether mystery rewards and included merchandise can drive game sales, with Zach arguing for premium incentives while Dennis remains skeptical.

Key Claims

  • Keith Johnson discussed Family Guy's long-lost video mode and potential co-op mode for future Jersey Jack games

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg Jersey Jack update, citing Jeff Teolis' Pinball Profile interview

  • Stranger Things Pro version .96 code update includes illuminated shooter knob support that wasn't coded properly on initial shipment

    high confidence · Zach Minney detailed account of customers reporting broken shooter knobs without proper lighting/coding

  • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1.04 fixed Cowabunga Wizard mode startup issue

    high confidence · Dennis mentioned TMNT shipped at 1.0, now at 1.04 with wizard mode fix

  • Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) aesthetically dislikes the Raphael hang glider on TMNT playfield

    high confidence · Zach citing Jeremy Packer interview on Super Awesome Pinball Show, LE cabinet art changes discussed with Dwight and Borg

  • Stern is running 'The Find' promotion on limited Stranger Things Pro units with mystery merchandise included

    high confidence · Zach describing promotion details including Ouija boards, character sets, arcade games, card games as possible contents

  • One widely discussed upcoming game rumor mentioned by Jeremy Packer is 'dead wrong'

    medium confidence · Zach citing interview, speculation includes Jaws, Godzilla, or James Bond as possible rumor targets

Notable Quotes

  • “It wasn't fucking coded, Dennis. Not even to light up. That's embarrassing.”

    Zach Minney @ mid-episode — Criticism of Stern's shooter knob implementation on Stranger Things Pro - shipped without proper code integration

  • “This thing flows like Demolition Man. Honestly, maybe better. One of Borg's best designs.”

    Zach Minney (about TMNT) @ mid-episode — Praise for John Borg's playfield design on TMNT, comparison to acclaimed layout

  • “Aesthetically, that hang glider just didn't do anything for me.”

    Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) @ via interview citation — Artist's admission of dissatisfaction with TMNT's Raphael hang glider, leading to LE cabinet art change

  • “I think you're wrong there because... There is a feeling of surprise and wonder whenever you can open up something and you're like, oh, shit, like, awesome.”

    Dennis @ loot crate debate — Defense of loot crate mechanics using baseball card/collectibles analogy for emotional value

  • “People don't pay $5,500 for a pack of baseball cards, Zach. It's not that they don't feel good if they open it, but that doesn't make you decide you're going to buy a game all of a sudden.”

    Dennis @ loot crate debate — Counter-argument that mystery rewards don't drive purchasing decisions at pinball price points

  • “I think if you put the right stuff in there, if you know that there is a signed George Gomez katana... I think it moves units.”

    Zach Minney @ loot crate debate — Argument for high-value exclusive rewards driving game sales

  • “That's like one of those cornerstone episodes where it can sit by itself as a piece of pinball history and discussion point.”

    Zach Minney @ referencing Eclectic Gamers episode — Praise for Travis Murray's marketing discussion episode on Eclectic Gamers podcast

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonKeith JohnsonpersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyAmerican PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyJeremy Packer / Zombie YetipersonDwight Sullivanperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball's Hot Wheels customization features and code updates indicate focus on player customization and engagement; marketing decisions around release generated significant community discussion

    medium · Brian Cosner update noting customization videos and production line content; hosts reference prior 'Hot Wheels release' discussion implying prior marketing controversy

  • ?

    community_signal: Travis Murray (Oklahoma State champion) guest appearance on Eclectic Gamers discussing pinball marketing praised as 'cornerstone episode' with historical significance to industry discussion

    medium · Zach praising episode as 'one of those cornerstone episodes where it can sit by itself as a piece of pinball history and discussion point'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: TMNT gameplay increasingly appreciated through code updates, compared favorably to Demolition Man playfield flow; described as opening new rules elements with each play session

    medium · Zach noting complexity and learning curve, 'every time I play a damn game there's something new that I open up,' praising Borg's design and Sullivan's lighting

  • ?

    design_philosophy: TMNT artist Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) expressed aesthetic dissatisfaction with Raphael hang glider design, leading to LE cabinet art revision replacing it with Bebop/Rocksteady drill machine artwork

    high · Zach citing Super Awesome Pinball Show interview where Packer discussed glider concerns and collaboration with Dwight/Borg on LE cabinet alternative design

  • $

    market_signal: Debate over loot crate strategy reveals fundamental disagreement on whether mystery rewards drive pinball machine sales; hosts diverge on psychological value of collectible surprise mechanics at premium price points

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.256

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:20
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Hey everybody, we're back with the Pinball Show episode number 20. We are your hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel. Dennis, did you miss me? We had a week off. Yeah, you went on vacation. You do that like every 18 months or so. Feels like I needed a vacation really, really bad and we went down to the beach. Now before everybody starts freaking out and like, oh my gosh, he wasn't wearing a... No, we actually spent a little more money. We rented a house so that we weren't in a resort. the house had a pool and stuff uh on the beach it was all residential so it wasn't a resort so there wasn't anybody really on the beach so it was just a really nice let's get away from everything time with the family and i still had to deal with pinball well that's your life it is it's my livelihood yeah it was it was fun though i had a nice break so listeners sorry for the break honestly i don't know who needed a break more from me the listeners or dennis creasel did you miss me at all just just a little just a little i mean i was i was busy that weekend anyway so no okay well that's fair how long would it take for you to miss me i don't know one week two weeks a month from doing what a fortnight just miss me in general just in general I don't know.
1:56
What did you do on 4th of July? Nothing. Really? A lot of people stayed home. Did you watch any fireworks? I tried to watch some outside, but I think the main city show was canceled. That's normally near my house, so I can only hear the illegal fireworks. Do you like fireworks? I mean, yeah, I like to watch them. I haven't set off a firework in years. Really? I can picture you sitting in a lawn chair, icing your feet down with your hat, of course, short shorts, of course, and a sparkler, a single sparkler with a grin behind all the flames.
John Borg
person
Ken Rudbergperson
Jeff Teolisperson
Ken Cromwellperson
Travis Murrayperson
Eclectic Gamers Podcastpodcast
TMNT / Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
Stranger Thingsgame
Hot Wheelsgame
Piratesgame
Family Guygame
Pinball Profilepodcast
Super Awesome Pinball Showpodcast
Counterforcegame
Tonyperson
Blockade Pinball Podcastpodcast
Brandonperson

medium · Dennis arguing mystery rewards create emotional value (baseball cards analogy) vs. Zach skeptical merchandise alone won't convert buyers, but high-value exclusive rewards might move units

  • $

    market_signal: Stern launching 'The Find' loot crate promotion on limited Stranger Things Pro runs with random merchandise included (Ouija boards, character sets, board games, arcade games, card games)

    high · Zach detailed promotion mechanics and contents, sparking host debate about effectiveness of mystery rewards on purchasing decisions at $5,500+ price points

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zombie Yeti (Jeremy Packer) confirmed as artist on TMNT with active role in design decisions including cabinet art revisions, collaborating with Dwight Sullivan and John Borg on design iterations

    high · Zach citing Super Awesome Pinball Show interview detailing Packer's aesthetic concerns and collaborative design process for LE cabinet artwork

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack hinted at upcoming innovations over a month ago with teaser video; no follow-up disclosed, community speculation rampant on Pinside

    medium · Ken Rudberg update: 'over a month since JJP released a teaser video hinting at some upcoming innovations... speculation is rampant... yet to be a follow-up'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stranger Things Pro .96 code update adds illuminated shooter knob support with interactive LED integration, addressing previous shipping quality issue where knobs shipped without proper coding

    high · Zach detailed account of customers reporting broken shooter knobs, personal testing confirming lack of code, new update now implements lighting and interactivity similar to game insert mechanics

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack exploring co-op gameplay modes for future titles per Keith Johnson interview; Pirates receiving final wizard mode development

    medium · Ken Rudberg citing Pinball Profile interview: 'how there could very well be a co-op mode being added to future Jersey Jack games'

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern shipped illuminated shooter knobs without proper code integration - customers received non-functional components, indicating quality control/testing gap

    high · Zach: 'It wasn't fucking coded, Dennis. Not even to light up. That's embarrassing.' Multiple customer returns reported before code fix.

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Jeremy Packer confirmed one widely discussed upcoming game rumor is 'dead wrong'; hosts speculate targets are Jaws, Godzilla, or James Bond

    medium · Zach citing interview: Packer 'was laughing at' rumor described as 'dead wrong'; hosts narrow speculation to three IP targets but uncertain which is the false rumor

    • 2:36
    I can't remember the last time I did that, but oh, well. An M-80 kind of guy? What's your favorite firework?
    2:45
    I guess, well, visually, I like watching mortars. When I was a kid, my favorite one to do were Roman candles. Oh. Because we'd be down in Arkansas, and I'd shoot them at the bulldozer that my grandpa had out in the pasture. It was always too far away to hit, but I would try and hit it. Got to get the right angle. I'd take regular firecrackers or ladyfingers, the real thin ones, and I'd put them in the old wood fence and stuff and try and blow chunks out of it. Ladyfingers? I'm not familiar. They're like a regular firecracker, but they're much thinner. Huh. And so I could fit them into spots on the fence easier than the regular sized ones. You weren't one of those six sadistic kids that stuffed them in a bullfrog's butt or anything? No, no, nothing to animals. We take smoke bombs and we take rocks from like a creek bed or road or whatever, driveway, and color them with the smoke bombs. Oh, yeah. That's a lot of fun. And parachutes. Oh, I do like parachutes. It's like 200 acres. Now, most of it was wooded, but so you'd pop the parachutes up, and it was usually fairly breezy, so you'd have to run and try and catch them. Except, of course, if they were the night ones because you'd burn yourself.
    3:54
    Burn your hands on the flame. Yeah. I remember that, too. You'd try to catch them. You'd try to run and catch them before they hit the ground. Yep. That was a lot of fun. Any guesses as to what my favorite firework is?
    4:05
    Yours are probably Saturn rockets. Oh, what are those? Those sound intriguing. They're the little box of rockets that they always chase people. Oh, you're thinking of the ones.
    4:15
    Yes, that's what they are. The annoying loud ones. Yeah, it seems like your sort of thing. No, I like the ones that look like a bomb, but you light them and they spin. They go.
    4:31
    And they spin on the ground. Those are the ones. You know which ones I'm talking about? I don't remember the name, but I do know them. Yeah, I like those. and fountains. I'm a big fountain guy. Give me a good fountain and I'm good. Colors. Oh, so yeah, we had a lot of fun on vacation. Sounds like you had a lot of fun watching virtual reality fireworks from your home. Yeah, my 4th of July, I was actually working. Turtles never sleep? Do they not? I think they sleep. Do they go in their shell when they sleep? I don't know. One would think they do. I don't really know anything about turtles. No, still scared of them. No, I took a trek up to Chicago to deliver and pick up machines, set up machines, set up a medieval Manus Royal. That was the first one I've unboxed and set up. That was a beaut. And then dropped off to Bill Webb and Steve Beattie for the Flippin' Out streams. Dropped off to Toidles for them to stream this Monday. And you know what? I think the following Monday they might have Dwight Sullivan in there hanging out. Oh, that's neat. That would be a lot of fun. And then Bill Budden Elvira. And then before heading home, it was 4th of July. I was already going to be getting home at like 1 in the morning. My whole day was shot. So I thought, you know what? I have to catch up with an old friend. So I stopped by old Ken Cromwell III's house. We had a couple beers, sat on the patio together. It was nice. I miss Ken. Do you? Yeah.
    5:54
    That's some bullshit. See, you miss him, but I ask you how long it takes to miss me. But he's nice. He's nice to me and stuff. I'm always nice to you, Dennis. Come on, Den-Den. I missed you. I'm fired up. You want to hear about some pinball news this week? I don't care. Fair enough. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    6:20
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Keith Johnson, the director of software for Jersey Jack Pinball, recently appeared on Jeff Teolis' Pinball Profile podcast. In the interview, he talked about Family Guy's long-lost video mode, how there could very well be a co-op mode being added to future Jersey Jack games, and the fact that he's currently working on the final wizard mode for Jersey Jack's Pirates. Keith also talked about his unlikely love for a Gottlieb machine from 1980 called Counterforce. It was a great interview, and I highly recommend you check it out. It's now been over a month since Jersey Jack released a teaser video hinting at some upcoming innovations. Speculation is rampant on Pinside as usual, as everyone appears to have their own opinion on what this innovation could be. There has yet to be a follow-up, and let's hope that it's a matter of days or weeks rather than months before the suspense has ended. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Hey, this is Kaz with a quick American Pinball update. As more and more customers and locations have been unboxing Hot Wheels, we've seen lots of videos and pics of everyone having fun. So check out American Pinball's Facebook page for more pictures on that and also video from the production line of games being built. There are also a few new videos that show off how easy it is to swap out your favorite Hot Wheels and customize your game. Also, Hot Wheels has a new code update that was released on July 1st. So everyone have fun playing pinball. Have a great week. For American Pinball, this is Brian Cosner.
    8:05
    Always great hearing from a correspondent. It's not a lot of news this week, but we'll update you guys with a little bit here. We got a code update for Stranger Things now at version .96. Getting closer. Very closer. Getting closer. Now, on this recent update, I don't know if we talked about the previous update, but there are some new multiball modes or some moments. One that's called Can't Stop This, and then one that's called Run Will. I just want you to be on location at KC GameCon Pizza East and be able to play this thing. They're open now, aren't they? All of our area on the Kansas side, the ones that were hosting tournaments, they are open. I think Stranger Things is still at 403 Club. we've had some changes in who's operating where so i talked to the new uh the new operator jojo styles yeah jojo is uh is uh operating out of 403 now and then i think carrie wing and nick greenup took over pizza west and nub's pub from eric anderson who had been doing it for the last few years yeah and we love carrie wing so that's you guys that's a good area that's a really good area I was talking to Joe Stiles about some of the games he was bringing in. He's bringing in some pretty cool games, Him and Kerry, to that area. So congratulations there. Now, also in this code update, we get some shooter knob support. So did the prior code not support a shooter knob and we just had to hit a button? What does this mean?
    9:31
    It's poorly written. Now, people say that I don't say anything negatively about any manufacturer that I sell for. But I'm here to tell you. Yeah, that's what people say. But I'm here to tell you that, embarrassingly, when they release this shooter knob, it is an illuminated one, very similar to the Amber shooter rod or knob on a knob or rod.
    9:54
    I guess the end of it's the knob. The whole thing is the rod. They both can be very sexualized. So it's illuminated like that JP or Jurassic Park knob. But when they shipped them out, customers were coming back and like, Zach, this one's broken. I need a new one. It's not lighting up. I was like, all right. So I tried to install one myself, and I was like, no, it's not lighting up. It wasn't fucking coded, Dennis. Not even to light up.
    10:21
    That's embarrassing. Yeah, I would agree. Yep, yep, yep. So when you ship them out, at least light them up. But now, not only does it light up, but it is very, very interactive. If you guys go look at the readme notes on this code update, This thing interacts just like the regular inserts within the game. So it's a really, really nice piece to add to a Stranger Things. I like anything that is shiny and flashy. You guys know that. We also got some improved attract mode lighting. This code we saw have .04 left to go. The home stretch, that's usually when you get all kinds of cleanup and you usually get one more big moment. what I'm still missing in Stranger Things Dennis is some of the mystery awards are still a mystery to me we see things like uncover map image I want to know what the hell that is we still see video mode I think it's like what the hell is that video mode I want I want to know what that means so I hope they don't cop out and just cut it prematurely so what say you Dennis as you're Looking at this code now, I know you don't have a ton of time on Stranger Things. Is it redeeming itself at all?
    11:35
    Probably not, no. You don't think so? I mean, it depends if you liked it initially and just need it a little more or not. I have never been enamored with what I've experienced with it. So I assume it's better now than what it was, but I don't know if I'll ever like it much. much i i for some reason this feels very similar to the relationship and the feelings people have with guardians of the galaxy to me i think that's where this is headed i i i kind of agree with you i think the difference though is guardians layout was always loved it was just the modes were i mean it was great all day and then it was orb all day and then finally it got good code i didn't hear a whole lot all right there were some you know imbalanced issues with stranger things but most of the complaints have been around like the mechanics of the demigorgon and such not the code so i think you can't code around bad geometry not easily that's true i remember uh guardians comes out toward the end of that code run they threw in things like cherry bomb multi ball and different things so i think guardians code got to an excellent place and that's where I honestly think that that's where this game is going to end up. It's going to end up. I already like this game more than I do Guardians. And bias aside, they sell both of these games still. But I like the brutality of a Stranger Things. I like the theme a little better than Guardians. Do you not find Guardians brutal?
    13:05
    I don't find it brutal. I find it difficult. but brutal meaning like tna ball is chaotic brutal i don't know i mean it doesn't it doesn't have a right other than the orb shot really it doesn't have a sort of in your face bank like stranger things in tna do that true unless you miss that right ramp then you're gonna eat it the left out lane on that board setup that's the only thing that just pisses me off but i hate that that little M outlane wire. Yeah, I've lost a lot of orb exits to that outlane too. Yes, exactly. And the magnet swings it around. Yes, because of the magnet more than anything really. So I think it ends up. We could complain about left outlane drains all day, Zach. Yes, we could. Why don't we talk about a little Teenage Mutant Ninja updates? Okay. 1.04. Oh, they're done. Well, they were done when it unboxed. I think they unboxed it at 1.03. Mine shipped with 1.0, the Pro that I had. But now they're at 1.04. The Cowabunga Wizard mode was not starting properly, so they did a fix to that. That was basically the only fix. I still see them kind of tweaking this game over time. But boy, oh boy, this thing is clicking more and more every time I play it. It's still code-wise a bit chaotic because I don't understand. It's so weird, Dennis, to have a game when you're so accustomed to Stern games coming in. a lot more bare than some other manufacturers, right? And you kind of grow with these codes, which I'm starting to like a little bit. To open up a game and to be at 1.0 or higher code, to have the whole game in there, it is a weird feeling because you're not gradually learning these rules over time and adjusting and updating in your own mindset how to play this game. It's all thrown to you. So for me, it's taking a little bit longer because Sullivan likes to do those hurry-up modes, those little mini modes or the stacking here and there. So I'm still catching up every time I play a damn game. This is a great thing, but every time I play a game, there's something new that I open up that I'm like, holy crap. I wasn't expecting that or what is this that's going on? And a lot of it's lighting. The guy just freaking nailed the lighting on this. You, Sullivan, had a chance to play, correct? No, we do have one on location now, then. Ooh. I opened up the LE.
    15:40
    Opened up the LE the other night, and it's a blast. It's a fun, fun, fun game. But this thing flows like Demolition Man.
    15:49
    Honestly, maybe better. One of Borg's best designs. Now, on the super awesome pinball show, they had Jeremy Packer, the artist on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, also known as Zombie Yeti. Did you hear any of that interview yet? I've heard the first half, but not the second. I'm going to give you some tidbits from that second half here. Zombie Yeti, did you know this? He aesthetically doesn't like the Raphael hang glider. Nope, I did not know that. And that stuck out to me because visually, when I first saw the game, that was one of the things in the middle of the play field I was like, what is up with that hang glider? Now, in person, it looks a hell of a lot better, so I'm good with it now. But I was hung up on that hang glider. And it was just nice to hear that aesthetically he was too. I know this because they were talking about the LE cabinet having different art on each side. Whereas the Pro Premium, they have a mirrored image on both sides. And Dwight and Borg were talking to Zombietti requesting maybe some glider artwork on the left side of that LE cabinet. And that's where Zombietti's like, just aesthetically, that hang glider just didn't do anything for me. So they discussed and they came up with the Bebop and Rocksteady underground drill machine or whatever. And I think they made the right choice. In person, that thing is beautiful. You get that orange-red that really sets off the green candy armor. I like it a lot. They were also talking with Jeremy Packer about some of the other games he has done and just art in general. I love that he discussed Ghostbusters. Remember on the apron of Ghostbusters, the artwork where Rick Moranis is there and Sigourney Weaver is there, the key master. Yep. Gatekeeper, yeah. Yeah, this guy done having sex. So originally, Zombie Yeti had the art of Rick Moranis with his pants open.
    17:45
    True to the film. His pants hanging open on the apron art. But he talked about he was kind of nudged into the direction of, nah, you need to button up the Marinas pants there. Whatever happened to Rick Marinas? He retired to take care of his kids. That was a great actor. I love some of his early stuff. Even like, what's your favorite Rick Marinas movie? Oh, Spaceballs. Spaceballs, yeah. I'm going to go with Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. I love that series. Yeah, I've seen that several times. I really actually like Streets of Fire, but he's just a supporting actor in it. You know, I've never seen that one. That's got William Dafoe in it. It's interesting. It's sort of an 80s rock biker gang thing. It's a very strange movie. Is it like a dark comedy? Kind of. More action-y, though, than comedy. I think William Dafoe and his nuttiness. Right. Almost like a musical, but set to gritty 80s streets. Nice. Very nice. I mean, the characters aren't singing themselves. Well, a little bit. But the plot is like a female singer is abducted offstage by this biker gang. And so this motley crew gets assembled to rescue her.
    18:58
    Son of a bitch, I'm in. That would have been a pretty good pinball machine, Streets of Fire. Mm-hmm. 100 limited edition Streets of Fire. I think we could do 200, Zach, Streets of Fire. Whoa. Okay. Get your wallets out, everybody. so i'm gonna also discussed on that interview that uh some of the information that comes out from pinball media he was laughing at and he said one of the most widely discussed rumors right now about an upcoming game and theme he said is dead wrong dead wrong what do you think he's talking about i have no idea so i'm thinking it's stern some of the rumors of stern games or godzilla Jaws, James Bond Jaws isn't still a rumor is it? Yeah. Then that's the one.
    19:49
    Maybe. Maybe it's Godzilla. But we know they have the rights to Godzilla. We know they do. But what they're going to do with them, we don't know. That's true. So which one, if you had to pick one of the three that you'd like to see made into a pinball machine? Jaws, Godzilla, or James Bond? You can only pick one. All the other ones get burned. Instinctively I'd say jaws then just because it's the only one that didn't already have a pinball machine okay that's fair but you know if it's jaws without the ability to really do the movie assets yeah yeah i'd say sure i i really like jaws i okay i don't know if it works that great as a pinball machine honestly there's a pinball arcade or excuse me pinball fx3 jaws game and it's not that good but there's stuff you could do with it it's just i don't know i don't i don't go gaga for it like a lot of people do but i really like jaws as a movie when i was a kid i used to pretend from jaws 2 that i'd take all the like my toy box and my bunk beds where i separated them so they were two separate beds and i would jump on them like i would have strung all the boats together to survive the shark the floor is lava man watch out yes basically the floor is lava except the floor was jaws you know speaking of i just got this is not a lie i just got a message uh from a I guess a fan of the show here. We don't have fans. We don't? No, pretty much not. Have you not checked Pinside? I don know This is coming from well yeah we don on there This is coming from a Brandon out of Wisconsin He messaged us and said hey Zach I saw this and I immediately thought of you and Dennis Hashtag Baklava rules. And it was a meme of the hit show The Floor is Lava on Netflix, but the floor is Baklava.
    21:37
    That's weird. It's very weird. It's the first time he's ever messaged me. Thanks, Brandon. to end out our Stern conversation here. Stranger Things Pro, we were talking about the code update to Stranger Things. The Pro now has a, they're selling them a very limited number with a promotion called The Find. Have you heard about this? No, I have not. The Find is in very limited upcoming runs of Stranger Things Pros. You can find a piece of memorabilia or like an extra add-on for buying the game. Remember when the katana sword was found in some games? I was just thinking of that and I thought, I think they should just do a katana thing again. I don't care if Stranger Things has nothing to do with katanas. The katana was badass. Yeah, that's why I'm thinking, just let someone else have another katana. So this is cool, but they're getting a lot of crap for it. We'll see what you think. So, included in a very limited amount of Stranger Things pros is a cool gift from the Upside Down. Call your dealer or distributor while supplies last. So you could open this thing up and receive one of the following.
    22:43
    A Stranger Things themed Ouija board. A Stranger Things character set of Dustin, Mike, Will, Lucas. Stranger Things ego card game. A Monopoly game, Stranger Things. Trivial Pursuit, back to the 80s with Stranger Things. Palace arcade mini arcade game. There's a Dungeons and Dragons Stranger Things card set. Backpacks, etc. What are your thoughts about this? Because the first reaction from people was, of course you can't sell these games. Now you've got to give shit away.
    23:16
    Hmm. Well, that wasn't my first thought. It's fine. I don't think it's really going to motivate anyone to buy a game because they might win a monopoly. I mean, come on. I think it might bump somebody over the fence, though.
    23:29
    I don't. You don't? No, I just think it's like a neat little add-on. But I really don't know anyone out there that's like, oh, if only I got a card game with this. A Ouija board. I'll finally buy it. I just like, no, I just don't think so. Okay. I just think it's like a cool add-on, like a katana, but not as cool. So you think this is a nice gesture, or do you think this is just a – Yeah, I don't think it moves units. So I can't, from like a marketing standpoint, other than it's like, hey, this is like a cool thing. It could breed goodwill in that way, but I don't think they sell a single additional game because of it. Not a single. No. Zach, we're talking like hats and stuff. I think you're wrong there. I think you're wrong there because. Because you can get this stuff in other places. Of course, but that's not the point. The point is being able to unbox something. Look at basketball and baseball cards. Look at some of these loot crates. There is a feeling of surprise and wonder whenever you can open up something and you're like, oh, shit, like, awesome. Like, I got this extra thing. That's really cool. Like, even opening up a Rick and Morty and seeing a bag of cheese balls, that cheese balls bag was so insignificant and it's not going to move units, but it felt good to receive that. I don't know why. And I think there's a lot of people in just collectability, not pinball, but just in collecting. When you think about YouTube videos and stuff, unboxing mystery things, crates and stuff, there's a lot of wonder and a lot of splendor to this kind of idea. People don't pay $5,500 for a pack of baseball cards, Zach. It's not that they don't feel good if they open it, but that doesn't make you decide you're going to buy a game all of a sudden. People don't go to Comet and buy LEDs because they are going to get free candy in the box. How great did you feel, though, when you opened up your Topps cards and you got one of those inserts, those rare inserts? You didn't collect sporting cards, did you? I collected baseball cards. Okay, okay. So how great did you feel? I don't remember the inserts, though. Maybe I never got those.
    25:38
    Really? Maybe my packs were dumb. I only got stale gum. Oh, you were the old school collector. Like I started to get out of it when they started doing like the foil cards. That's what I'm talking about, the inserts. Like inserts like a special edition. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's cool. It's the same with like magic. But those things are sold like you're buying the crate. Pinball machines are not going to become loot crates where people buy them in the hopes of getting. Because it's too expensive. I think this could be a really cool feature for certain pinball or Jersey Jack or somebody to do. Hear me out here, Dennis. I don't want to hear you out. I don't want to keep talking about this. It's not that it's stupid, but that you think that it will actually sell games is shockingly naive. No, I think it can. I think if you put the right stuff in there, if you know that there is a signed George Gomez katana. That stuff, yeah, coke.
    26:30
    That might work too. But if you have 50 katanas in the next 500 run of Deadpools, I think it moves units. I think it was something expensive, maybe, but not Monopoly games. I'm with you there. But what about this? For example, Stranger Things Ellie comes out. Let's say they've got to move units of that. Or maybe the next game comes out, Ellie. What if they told you up front, hey, guys, there's 500 Ellies. But there are 20 random machines that when you receive them, they will have a clear-coated cabinet on them signed by the artist. are they having trouble selling no lease no even premium i don't care do that on the premiums yeah pick a model premiums pros i don't care pick a model but knowing like if it's something that directly ties to the pinball machine i could see it making a difference or if it's something that you can't go to the store and buy that has value like i don't maybe the commemorative stuff like let's say that someone who bought a black knight sword of rage pro was going to get a full set of Black Knight armor. Real armor. That's cool. Maybe. Exactly. Because that's... Or just their accessories. That's not cool. It's awesome. But Monopoly's not awesome. So you've got to go to that level. You've got to go to that level. But what I'm getting to, there's something there. What if one of your select few of premium games already had the factory accessory armor on there? That would be cool. Or maybe they have side blades already installed. 20 of those units. That would be cool. So it would always kind of be a I wonder if I'm going to get something special in this. A shooter knob on 10 of the models. I think there's something there. Well, given the price point of the machines for that alone to make someone decide if they're going to take a chance and buy new, it has to be significant. That's my only point. I think it's a good point. And these Stranger Things ones are not significant enough that I think they make a difference. yeah i'd like to see companies maybe start doing that they would get a lot of blowback because people are gonna people are angry about every single thing possible in the world yeah i still think there's something there you know somebody who loves loot crates that would be worth discussing this probably uh tony from the eclectic gamers podcast i wondered that's who you're going to say Oh, sweet, sweet Tony. What would Tony think about this idea?
    29:04
    I don't think he'd be too fond of it. I don't either. You know he doesn't listen to this show. FYI. If you thought he hears all your remarks, he doesn't. If he thought he hears. Guess what? If he did listen, he would tell you he didn't. So, boom. You don't know for sure if he listens or not. He would be honest with me. He won't spare my feelings. No, he don't want to give in. He doesn't want to give in. Tony, I know you're listening. I'll keep a secret. I'll keep it safe. Speaking of the Eclectic Gamers podcast, one of the best damn pinball podcasts and mixed gaming podcasts out there.
    29:41
    There are like three of them, but thanks for that. No, that's my favorite. You guys recently conducted an episode on marketing and pinball, and you had on special guest Travis Murie. yeah feedback's been really good actually about that episode it had to be that was one of my favorite egp episodes that i've heard and you guys have done a lot so listener if you have not listened to the episode on pinball marketing with travis murray's co-host do yourself a favor and go listen to that because that's like one of those cornerstone episodes where it can sit by itself as a piece of pinball history and discussion point that's just really really important and entertaining at the same time. Now, what is Travis Meary's background? Should we know Travis Meary? Well, I didn't know him until less than a year ago because he's the Oklahoma State champion. He's a competitive player. He'd come up for a Kansas City event. And so that's where I learned his name. We didn't talk at that event. It's just I was commentating that tournament with Tony. and a lot of people in the chat knew him and were big fans of his. At some point later on, we started corresponding online and marketing came up. Then I learned that he has, while not in pinball, he has brought products to market. He had a lot of familiarity with marketing, especially launching new products. And social media marketing. Yeah, well, how the whole marketing happens in this day and age when you're considering a home consumer, to be more specific. So given that, we had had some on-the-side conversations between ourselves and also Tony had some conversations as well. And so with all of this focus, especially after a lot of the discussions that kind of spilled over regarding the Hot Wheels release. Another big episode for you guys. It was like – well, and there was a lot of discussion about Hot Wheels because of some of the decisions that were made by American Pinball that setting aside anything about drama or anything. It was like, is this the right way to do it? What about the other companies? Are they doing it the right way? So I thought it would just make for a really interesting episode, and we needed someone who knew marketing because Tony and I do not have backgrounds in marketing.
    32:00
    So we approached Travis, and he said, yes, he'd love to do it. Oh, he's articulated well. He's a nice guy. He's a big competitive player. for those of you who are interested in Travis Meary after listening to this episode he goes by Marv Loco on YouTube and I think he streams as well and he used to be a big Call of Duty streamer actually he's partnered and everything on Twitch so he knew like lots of angles that involve pinball like doing live streaming doing marketing trying to appeal to home customers new product concepts because every pinball machine is essentially a whole new product so it's like he checked all the boxes more boxes than i realized he would check in one episode too we've we always hear you know in the in pinball media about marketing why are they doing this why are they doing this they should do this but this is one compilation one just piece it was so good he described pinball marketing in that episode as he said they still may be in the quote leather helmet era it just really highlighted for me you know what that he is right pinball always feels like it's just a hair behind on everything maybe it's the complexities and manufacturing and it's such a niche small product hobby or industry but the leather helmet era in pinball marketing what do you think he was talking about i think it if i remember correctly during the time in that conversation that was really about how to approach home customers and try and get sales because a lot of the people in the industry have been in the industry for such a long time that they were used to the marketing through distributors to operators and that so in that regard i think some of them might still be approaching the the whole process like it was the 90s still so i think that's really what that was getting at was that be it because of just tradition because obviously there are a lot of newer younger marketers now that weren't working back then but it seems like there's still this huge emphasis on here's what you give the you know you give the information to the distributors and the distributors sell the products and then you know you've come up with these flyers which are still oriented towards operators and then they've tried to tack things on to appeal to homeowners but maybe didn't put in the best of thought into it. It's just not enough. It's not enough anymore. It seems like – and so people will look to say, oh, well, here's what Stern does, so let's kind of just sort of copy what that is as best as we can. And maybe they can't copy it very well, for example, or – Yeah, I like that point that you're bringing up because he said everybody kind of by default tries to follow the Stern model in marketing and advertisements. But he said even Stern, in some areas, he disagrees with a lot of the current practices of a Stern pinball, of a Jersey Jack, of an American, across the board. He does so in a respectful way, but he was even giving tips and techniques on what some of these manufacturers could do to implement. They would see maybe an exponential type of growth or reaction feedback from. He's not crazy about, and I've said this forever, but people are like, they always poo-pooed me, but this guy says it, and now they agree with him. But he said streaming a game, revealing your game via live stream, he doesn't like that idea. No, he touched on several factors for it, fully acknowledging that he thinks a live stream is a useful component to the marketing. so he wouldn't do away with those but that they should not be like the focal initial reveal mostly because you can't control the environment yeah too much and go wrong and the hot wheels was a good case in point because there were internet issues at the factory where they were trying to stream from and that undermined the that undermined the launch of that of that process and then also that because of how that's going to go you know it's this big focus on diving in on all these rules and all these shots, how does that grow pinball with people that aren't familiar with playing pinball? So in his world, controlled videos are better to put together promotional videos that you start with that and also start trying to bring in people that are not just pinball people, but exploiting influencers, social media folks to get you a bigger, that you have to grow the pond. You have to grow the pond if you want more sales because so far most of these companies are only focusing on trying to get as many people within the existing pond as possible to buy the game instead of just trying to grow the pond. Yeah, absolutely. And he really touched on the influencer, these millions of subscriber-based influencers on YouTube, on Twitch. He said – and I agree with him. How can anyone argue that getting it into their hands makes the most sense? Because if you're trying to grow pinball and trying to grow the customer base and the player base, that's where you should go. You should go to the families of these big old streamers and these big old YouTubers because that's where you're going to get more eyes on the product. If it means, he talked about giving away a machine or having some type of promotion, you do whatever you need. But that type of advertisement and marketing, you can't put a price on. Right. And I think from what I'd heard from others before doing the episode, a lot of people, I guess, seem to have this suspicion or maybe fear is a better word that it won't work. Like, oh, well, if we give a machine to an influencer, then it's like $5,000 we just gave away and we don't get anything out of it. Like that's not going to generate sales. And there is a significant portion of the discussion really between Travis and Tony where they were talking about the type of influencers. like people immediately go and think about oh well like giving it to video game people and video games are so different because they're cheap but tony really brought up tech influencers who are all the time getting this stuff from other companies that are five to ten thousand plus products in terms of cost and they sell and it sells or even like if you think about some of these youtubers the families and stuff they follow around these families they do fun little gimmicks and there are millions upon millions of followers. These are family-based machines. They can be.
    38:24
    Yeah, Tony's and my sister both have told me that when their kids started watching where they open the toys and stuff on YouTube and then it's like they hate it because the kids start asking for the toys all the time. And so much so that that Ryan family, the little boy Ryan and his family, they're multimillionaires now and they have their own product lines. of toys like it's insane this is where everything is going he talked about that and i've said it before with live streaming you have a controlled maybe a pre-recorded stream like i remember ken and i were going to do the rick and morty reveal and that's what we had planned out we had a multi-faceted thing where you would have a pre-recorded live and and travis said it here uh dennis travis said small a small a game or two just give them a taste they don't need to run it for two hours, pre-record that, and then, like Ken and I talked about, maybe have some of the developers talk and choreograph that whenever you are showing that. Then maybe you go cut to an interview, man. Maybe then you cut to a behind-the-scenes video. Make it a multifaceted approach, and that's what Mr. Muri was talking about. He also said people need to utilize YouTube more. If you want exposure, he preached that louder than anything. YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, and Facebook. Yeah, and that had more to do with search analytics and how people try and find content and that Twitch is not used for that. Yeah. So that he pointed out something I did not know, but that YouTube is the second most used search engine behind Google for finding stuff. Isn't that wild? And that's why it's so important. It's nothing personal against Twitch. It's just that's the way it is. That's the reality that you're living in. And he really focused on, well, he thinks a lot of that, the influencer, the YouTube stuff. That's the grow the pond part. But obviously a lot of the strategy about even focusing within the existing pond, he did have quite a bit of praise for the Willy Wonka reveal. I think he felt that that's been the most successful coordinated reveal that's been done in recent memory. Well, he talked about like a collaborative approach. Right, right, right. Where you had the deep dive came out from this week in pinball, and you had straight down the middle do the promotional video, which dropped, and you had special when lit interview the interview panel. And you had a live stream too that Buffalo Pinball did at whatever show it was. All in unison and knocked it out. Yep, all coordinated on the same day. And he said he feels that sort of stuff works. And I think to, I guess, give a tip of the hat to you and Greg, he pointed to that video you guys put together, which has like 70,000 views. That's huge for our pond. That's bigger than most all other promo videos in pinball history, not just in the last year, pinball history. And to him, that's a case in point about that view count proves that that strategy works better than what most are usually doing. Well, not only that, that's a good point, but I would push it over to Buffalo Pinball, too. I heard on the recent JJP podcast with Ken Cromwell, they said that, I think it was Joe Katz and Kevin Maney from Buffalo Pinball were on there, and they said that that reveal, that Willy Wonka reveal by Buffalo Pinball was the single highest concurrent viewing pinball reveal in history. Yeah, no, it's not. Well, I wanted to give you and Greg your dues. The emphasis that Travis really had was this coordinated. It all worked together. It's not like just doing the straight down the middle thing was the right answer. It all helped one another. It was a right answer, but this was all layered. It was all the same day. It was all structured and coordinated and prearranged. There was actual thought put into it. And then if you can have that but also have your big influencer that gets a hold of it probably right before.
    42:25
    Well I think the idea with the influencer there is that doesn have to be same day Nope that doesn The value with that is just to get the product exposed to more people than you ever going to do by having like imagine someone came to me and said, Dennis, would you stream this game for exposure purposes? I'm like, yeah, I can, but who watches my stream? Pinball people. Yeah. Would you like some non-pinball people to maybe see the game? If so, I am not your right answer. Yeah, that's a good point. And bigger influencers getting a hold of this thing and revealing these machines, selfishly, it didn't help out my brand at all. But I still think it's the right decision. I still think that's what they should do. I think because – and we just talked about like the 70,000 views with the straight down the middle Wonka video. I think a lot of people – we just say the word influencer. It sounds sort of – that sounds like some stupid millennial thing. Yeah. but understand that some of the people that do these reviews, like in tech and gaming broadly,
    43:28
    y'all don't understand the numbers we're talking about. These people have millions of followers and subscribers. Millions. They truly influence the market. The title is warranted. Whether you think what they do professionally is stupid or not, the title is warranted. They actually can move markets. They have that many people. I wonder if in their comment sections, they're called shill bastards some might be i i remember there was blowback on influencers uh back when it was sort of and this was like within the last 10 years so more wild west and people weren't disclosing when they were being paid by companies which you should always do which is why like on eclectic gamers if i get money for something or i get a free download code to try something i always announce it because i need to let you guys know if someone's giving me something It's important. I completely agree. But yeah, Travis was talking about YouTube, Facebook. Streaming is even increasing in popularity with the fall of Mixer here as of late. He predicted that YouTube and Facebook streaming and live streaming was actually going to get an uptick. And you may see them even rival or surpass that of Twitch in the coming year, years, decade. Who knows? Yeah, we'll have to see on that. You were surprised by that. I'm skeptical. I know that Facebook growth, Facebook gaming is what I believe they call their live stream feature. Its growth numbers are really good. Mixer's growth was terrible. Facebook does have good growth. Facebook's also a highly controversial company, though. And YouTube has seemed to struggle, in my view, has seemed to struggle with the live streaming aspects. It's gotten better. I watch some stuff live streamed on YouTube. it's more that YouTube has advantages aside from the live streaming that it integrates in so cleanly with so I mean it's possible that something could dethrone Twitch I just am skeptical because I think once you've got so much market share you have to almost screw it up to lose it but and maybe they will I don't know I mean they've been dealing with a whole lot of sexual harassment allegations stuff but they're taking steps they know that there's a threat to their brand because they've been seen as too lax, especially on popular streamers. Yeah, and... Accusations against them. Oh.
    45:46
    I heard you guys talking about Dr. Disrespect. No one knows why he's banned yet. Hmm. All these bans. What's going on?
    45:56
    Cancel culture! Most of the time, if it's been because of anything sort of sexual harassment oriented, Twitch has said so. Yeah. I'm waiting for the cancel culture reaper to come knocking on my door.
    46:09
    Zach, your shilling days are over. So again, I am biased because you are my friend and I really enjoy your Eclectic Gamers podcast, but I am telling you guys, go listen to that episode. It was very, very enjoyable. And thanks again to Travis for going on that show and enlightening a lot of us. And go check out his stuff. Now, Travis is sponsored as well. We have Flippin' Outs working with him. So we're working with Travis on videos and some of his streaming and stuff. So I'm looking forward to Travis's work. And speaking of pinball media, this alert, selfish plug here. Very selfish plug, but I'm very proud of this. And this is my platform in which I get to talk with you, listener, who I consider a lot friends. That straight down the middle of pinball show, Dennis, you're familiar with that YouTube channel, right? Yeah. We recently met a pretty big milestone that I am just so, so proud of. A million views. One million views. We just crossed the finish line. And that is small based on a lot of popular YouTube stuff. But damn it, to us, it means so, so much. We've been doing this for three years, five months, around there. So three and a half years. we have nearly 6,000 subscribers now for Straight Down the Middle a pinball show and about 250 videos but in that amount of time a little over three years getting a million views is something that I want to thank you listeners if you guys watch that show or watch the streams or the associated shows on YouTube related to Straight Down the Middle thank you guys so much for helping us pass that milestone we're excited to hit 2 million And recently, speaking of numbers, our channel is kind of blowing up right now, Dennis. We have in like the last month over 600 subscribers in the last month and over 60,000 views plus in just the last month alone. So we're starting to finally catch, Travis and I talk about that, some of that exponential growth that's going outside of the industry of pinball alone. And kind of probably venturing into hobbies in general, toys in general, gaming in general. So we are very humbled by it, and we are very appreciative of all the support we've got over the last couple years. Well, Zach, I will say to you and Greg, congratulations. A million in pinball is a massive milestone, I think. Yeah, thank you. Well, hopefully on one of the next SDTM videos you'll see maybe a promotion or a giveaway to celebrate this. But thank you to all. Now, we recently did some Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles videos on Straight Down the Middle. Did you get a chance to check any of those out, Dennis? No. I didn't think so. No, I heard one was, and I know these are really popular with people, so I know I'm just an anomaly, but I don't need to see someone who can't eat pizza.
    49:09
    Poor Greg. It was so redeeming for me because it was finally a video that I got the support. People said I won the challenge and the contest. And for listeners that don't know, we did a recent video and unboxing on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles where staying true to the original film and a Domino's pizza, we had Greg Bone try to eat an entire large pepperoni pizza quicker than I could unbox the Turtles machine. And it came down to the last wire, so much so that we don't know who won. We asked in the comments section for people to vote and pretty overwhelmingly, it was like a build a bank on EGP. I brought home that gold.
    49:54
    And he brought home a sour tum-tum. Oh, he was miserable. It was bad. Yeah, he was. I mean, it is a lot of pizza, but if you don't eat, I mean, standard, like, I don't remember how large Domino's Larges are. Most pizza's Larges are around 2,000 calories. So if you don't eat anything, it's about a daily food load. Yeah, I could see that. And he didn't, it was Crustgate, because everybody was like, you didn't eat the crust. Greg doesn't eat crust of a pizza in general. So he said, oh, so he doesn't eat pizza. I can't eat crust, right? You dip that stuff. That's good stuff. Now order a thin. If you really don't, I usually get thin crust. He wanted thin, but I said, no, no. Oh, okay. Well, aesthetically and visually for video purposes, that's not going to fly here. I said, make sure the pizza place cuts it in a triangular cut because we don't want no square tavern style pizza here. That's not good for a video. So he went with it. No, I agree with the triangle cap, but I think you could have let him have a fan. No, it's not a big deal. Hand-tossed or something. It was a hand-tossed. It was a hand-tossed one. All right, so it wasn't like deep dish. It was a little fluffy, though. It was a little fluffy. We had fun doing that. All right, so you stacked the odds a little bit against him, but not egregiously so. We also did a first impressions video that was a lot of fun, and then we did a gameplay video where I pulled out the streaming rig and put a really good game, and I haven't got that far in Turtles since, I don't believe. So go check out those things. And to close out our news here, Multimorphic has been making some buzz. They are the pinball innovators over there. They had an announcement of a Bluetooth audio headphone support. That's supposed to be a game changer. I heard about that, yeah. I didn't realize people didn't have that. They have headphone support, but I think they're all audio jack. Well, okay. Now, obviously, in other things, we're quite familiar with Bluetooth headphones. But I think multi-morphics way will actually allow when, like, player one and player two step up, like, it switches over to which person. That is impressive. I don't think you can multi-cast out to multiple devices. It changes channels and stuff. That's impressive. Okay. Yeah, I like that idea, and it only makes sense, especially in the world we live in now, where you can take your headphones to the arcade, and if all these manufacturers were doing that, you don't have to worry about plugging in stuff and gunking up the porthole.
    52:17
    Pretty cool. Multimorphic's doing it. Let's just not pick it up like I'd like them to. It's a cool game. I still want to play Heist. Yeah, Heist has got a lot of positive buzz. If you guys want to go see Heist, I know that GammaGoat's been streaming Heist as well as Kevin Maney from Buffalo just got a Heist. I think they just did a big thing with that. They did an unboxing. Yep, yep, yep. So go check those out. And also, friend of Dennis Creasel, Nick Baldrige. I don't know if I've met Nick, but Nick Baldrige, one of the most intelligent people in pinball, if not the most, he announced a new game that he is developing for the multi-morphic P3 system titled Ranger in the Ruins. Pew, pew. Oh. I don't think it makes that sound, but if I had made it, it would. I thought it was like I wonder like Ranger I think of the Lone Ranger is it that kind of Ranger I think of like Legolas style Archer I thought it was going take my horse down the old town road I'm going to ride we have had a lot of requests for there not to be I tried not to sing damn it it's just it's joy and it pours out of me seeps out my pores pours out of my pores this game by Nick Baldridge being developed ranger in the ruins is a roguelike format in gaming bringing it to pinball i'm confused can you educate me dennis what is roguelike gaming format uh it's essentially a type of role-playing game usually i associate nick i usually i associate with like a dungeon crawler is the style usually but the main highlights are the levels tend to be procedurally generated and permanent death permanent death that doesn't yeah yeah so so in pinball like one ball only sort of stuff usually now roguelikes uh usually let you earn something that you can carry over from playthrough to playthrough like a currency upgrade some so that it gets easier to get further as you go along is that where they were talking about internet connected ghost data I didn't understand that either. It just sounded like a spooky kind of thing. That's less roguelike versus – well, I'd have to see how it was implemented exactly. But there are other RPGs that have done things. I'm thinking Dark Souls, for example. If you're connected online, people could write on the floor where danger was and give little messages, and anyone who walked in that area would be able to see it even though they're playing their own single-player game. So that sort of ghost stuff, that has to do with the internet connectivity, but you don't need something like that to be a roguelike. He was talking about other people that are connected to the internet. Other players can give items, but those items may be good or bad to the player. It seemed really complicated and exciting. When I happen with the messaging from the ghosts, so to speak, and Dark Souls, sometimes they'd say, jump here, and if you did, you died because they were trolling. Assholes. Well, it's not a very friendly game. Well, Dark Souls doesn't suggest it's friendly. No. Hmm. And then he also talked about pixel art. The first, to his knowledge, of what a pinball machine that was going to integrate pixel art. Again, this is all gaming stuff to me, and I'm ignorant to it. A lot of roguelikes are pixel art. What does that mean? You know Nintendo Entertainment System and stuff. That's pixel art. Oh, like an 8-bit kind of? Yeah. Gotcha. What's the benefit of that? Is it just more now in 2020 a style? Okay. like a nostalgic style yeah yeah a lot of people started doing uh well you know like on the display for for uh deadpool where they went that 16-bit style that's pixel art ah it's like now people actually back in the day that was just the best the systems could do but now it is an aesthetic style to do pixel art because obviously our technology the p3 screen could let you have like christopher franchi painted landscapes you don't need pixel art anymore but some people do it because it's sort of bright and cartoony, and it brings back memories of old RPGs and platformers and stuff like that. He also says it's going to be a one-ball game. That would fit with the roguelike aspect. One life. That's it. Yeah, one ball, one life.
    56:42
    I'm okay with that. That seems... That's how his Quest for Glory homebrew project he's been doing on P3, it's a one ball as well. Is he done with that? It sounds like that is almost not very good. I think he's still trying to get some of the art still needs to be upgraded to, because he was having all the art redrawn. Oh, I see. Like he was hiring artists to do it. And I don't think all of that's turned in yet, but the game is built. Now, he doesn't have licensing, so of course he cannot sell that game. No, I think he's checking on that, and I wish him luck with it. But unfortunately, there was a company, or excuse me, Activision controls that. Oh, that's a big one. and there's a game that's a spiritual successor to the video game's Quest for Glory called Hero U, and it's done by the people, I believe, who were involved with Quest for Glory, and they could not obtain the rights to call it Quest for Glory. So maybe they'll be more sympathetic to pinball? I don't know. They seem to kind of hold that one with a tight grip. Yeah, I don't see it happening. But this Ranger in the Ruins sounds original, so he may be able to sell this in the multimorphic marketplace. Sure. I don't see why it would be a problem. There are a lot of roguelikes in the video game sphere, and a lot of them are pixel art, and a lot of them are easy for small teams of people or single individuals to develop. Because the procedural generation usually means you don't have to make a whole bunch of maps. There's like a randomness to it. Anyway, it's a style that a lot of people enjoy. I always recommend The Binding of Isaac if people want to try a roguelike because I think it's the best one out there. The Binding of Isaac? Yeah. That sounds kinky as well. If you ever see the little face with the tears running down its cheeks in Twitch, that's from Binding of Isaac. Oh, I know what you're talking about. Never knew the reference, but now I do. That's what it's from. I'm the worst nerd ever because every time I hear role-playing, I always think of something kinky.
    58:39
    Well, that's applicable too. When you said dungeon crawler, I'm like, ooh, I wonder if Nicole would be up for that. get at the shackles hon we're playing a dungeon crawler tonight i called prisoner first dungeon crawler i guess dungeon doesn't have to be it could be like a tomb raider kind of thing oh i'm gonna go real quick online cosplay outfits what size is my wife i'm looking for a laura croft as we speak and ordered we were gone for a week but now we're back and maybe we give you a double dose of this week's pinball show presents pinball market trends baby ready dennis sure buckle up because trending up this week is teenage mutant ninja turtles ellie by stern pinball how can that trend up dennis they're all sold out people are buying them for more unused. Oh, look at you. You're a great pinball market trends correspondent now. Maybe we should have that.
    59:55
    This segment's already way too long. Dennis is correct. The LEs are selling on the secondary market brand new in box for more than MSRP.
    60:05
    They're going up, up, up. I don't know where the ceiling's going to be at for these, but they got sucked up real quick once they were announced. People are unboxing them. They're living up to the hype. So they're selling for more than your MSRP of what's the MSRP on those? $9,099? $91.99? They're selling for more. I've seen them sell for like over $10,000. And it's not even Christmas, Dennis. It's not even Christmas. So if you got yourself an LE, I think you'll be satisfied if you ever need to resell that. It's going to retain its value. Very much like some of the recent releases that we've seen. Jurassic Park has retained its value very well. Iron Maiden has retained its value very well. So congratulations for all those TMNT LE owners out there. If I'm forecasting here, I think you're going to see that dip a little bit once premiums start to roll out because as we know, it's just aesthetics on the LE that differentiates itself from the premiums. All the mechanisms and stuff are the same. Also trending up this week is practical marketing expertise applied to pinball. How about it? No pizza ordering action button ideas with the newest pinball marketing personality, Travis Meary. No, no, no. We've got actual practical marketing expertise that we now can apply and some of these manufacturers can apply and at least think about when it comes to pinball. Bravo. Nicely done. A little clap there. Hear that little clappy, Dennis? A little clappy for him. I can't clap for this next one because trending down is Black Rose. One of my favorites. I love Black Rose. What the hell happened to it? I'd like to have a Black Rose. But no. What I'm finding in my thorough research here at Pinball Market Trends is that it's not necessarily the higher-end Black Roses. Those are still on a slight increase when it comes to money. I'm talking about the players' condition Black Roses. We've saw some pop up in the marketplace. Usually these don't pop up very often, but there's three or four in the marketplace right now so that you can get one of these for like mid twos. Now, keep in mind, listener, six months ago, these were $3,000 machines. We're in the mid to upper twos now, depending on condition. But what I found is the discrepancy in that separation between a player's and a really nice example, that is enlarging. Those are going up. The nice ones are going up because there's a lot of insert wear on those play fields. The cabinets fade a lot. So if you have one that has been refurbished to a good degree, no play field wear, that is going to bring you even more money. But for the average ones, that's actually going down a little bit, and you're finding those mid twos.
    62:55
    What do you think about that? That was more of a complex trend there, Dennis. Is there appreciation there?
    63:02
    I'm diversifying, baby. Yeah, it's different for you. And also trending down, this is what Dennis loves the most when I talk about non-pinball related things. Trending down this week is when you record fucking Facebook fireworks.
    63:17
    People, I want to see your fireworks. I don't care if you're putting them in slow motion. Have you seen these on Facebook, Dennis? A few. Do we care? Who cares about fireworks on TV? That's like a fireplace on TV. No one cares. I can't feel the warmth. I can't feel the reverberation of that sonic...
    63:43
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the crackling ones But you know what I do care about TRENIOPTHUS Optus with Terry Year after year he rings in the 4th of July For me personally there is nothing better when it comes to 4th of July than hot dogs fireworks and Terry trying to put it in reverse again That's right. You guys know I'm in love with a man named Terry that had trouble lighting a firework a couple years ago. and he's in a motorized wheelchair, but his wheelchair was messed up. I don't know if it was old. It was malfunctioning and the damn thing would not go in reverse. It wouldn't go in forward. And he was stuck in nearly in the flames of a firework. And it was hilarity. I felt bad about it, but it was hilarity as well. And he was smiling as he was wheeling off. It is my favorite thing on the internet.
    64:44
    Hold your hand, Tico. I got it, come on. Hey, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Two cars coming.
    64:53
    We got two cars coming two different ways. Here you go, Terry. Bag up, bag up. Bag up, Terry. Put it in reverse, Terry. Put it in reverse. Oh, Lord. Lord, Jesus. Oh, Lord. Oh, Jesus. What the heck are you doing, Terry? Terry, what the heck? What the heck?
    65:28
    This is my favorite thing on the internet. Always will be my favorite thing. The damn wheelchair that malfunctioned belongs in the Smithsonian. But I will report a follow-up to Terry's story. I don't know if you know this, Dennis, But a group came together and actually donated a brand new, very specified motorized wheelchair for this gentleman. So it ended up with an awesome, awesome outcome. So thank God that Terry and his family were gifted that. I can't get over this video. You know how many times I watched it yesterday, Dennis? Nope. At least 30. It was a long drive to Chicago and back. At least 30 times. Oh my god, what you doing Terry? What is he doing?
    66:17
    Great sport there Terry. And for all of you messaging me this video, usually I would be annoyed by somebody messaging me something that I know I'm going to get blasted with everybody that's messaging something. But this one, every time somebody messaged me that video, I took time to watch it because I love put it in reverse Terry. Holding steady this week, we talked about it before, but it is true prices-wise on the secondary market for Stern Stranger Things is now holding steady. I'm attributing these steady prices to the new code updates, to the thoughts that maybe there's going to be some more code that's going to fill it out even better than it is now. On the pin side, top 100, it's sitting at number 39. Not too bad considering it's ranked higher than the likes of Guardians of the Galaxy, game of thrones star wars by stern and even spooky's very own tna what do you think about that dennis stranger things ranked higher than guardians game of thrones star wars and tna i'm a little surprised at some of those winner winner chicken dinner and on select pros luke crate that bitch up you might be able to win yourself a ouija board or a dungeons and dragons Stranger Things game. Trending in the future should be Loot Crate Pinball. Purchasing.
    67:44
    Oh, you want an original print by Zombie Yeti stuffed into that pinball box? You got it! 1 in 20 games are going to have that. Ooh, you like the accessory armor? It's going to come out in six months? Well, wait no more. 1 in 25, the premiums are going to have that.
    68:00
    Mirrored back glass? It's only on the LEs? Guess what? 1 in 15 premiums and pros are going to have that feature. Shaker motor, 1 in 50. You name it, it's coming. I wish. I think they'll listen. I'm going to call Tony. Tone? I don't have to call Tony. He's listening right now. And we can't segue out of this segment without going over this week's Deals of the Week. Bye, bye, bye. It's a rough one. The old larynx there. Your deal of the week this week can be found on Pinside by Twin Mice. It's not One Mouse, not Thrice Mice, but Twin Mice out of Canyon Country, California. The Triple C. If you go on Pinside right now, a Star Wars Premium by Stern Pinball. It's virtually new. I know because I sold it to them. It's damn near brand new. It comes with the limited edition topper. all of that and more $6,800 not too shabby I know that they're having trouble making those Star Wars toppers I don't know if it's parts or just they're delayed I don't know what it is but that topper alone is going to fetch you $750 to $1,000 guaranteed so if you take that off your mid fives on a nice Star Wars premium virtually new game oh come on he's got some other mods on there as well that is definitely a considerable buy buy buy i'm gonna tell you listener i actually still wouldn't mind having a star wars le if anybody out there has one for a good price i need the damn thing man it's got to be juicy i'll buy a new one too if you guys got it in the box but i don't know what do you think is that crazy of me still wanting a star wars le that's not crazy but over the premium comic book I wish you were one of the people that once you got rid of a game, you were actually done with it. Oh, really? You can't miss a game?
    70:05
    I never have. Really? I sell them when I'm done with them. Why would I sell it if I'm not done with it? Geez, I hope you never break up with me. I'll never see you again.
    70:16
    I know a lot of people go and end up reacquiring, so I know that not everyone's like me. I just think that your life would be easier if you were. Look, I've got a buddy like that here locally. he's a pinball guy and he's very much like that he will keep a game until he knows that he never will have a need or want for it again and then he gets rid of it doesn't look back for me it's more of a i mean i could see like there are games that i i still like them i sold them it's just there's so many games i've never had that i think there's probably plenty of game out there the challenge is now as i've gone along longer and longer i still have the same amount of space but there are more and more games that I'm not done with. And I don't know if I will be. So it's like, yeah. It's gotten harder. It used to be easy to get rid of games, and now I have to really think. Except for poor Buck Rogers. What about poor Buck Rogers? Didn't you get rid of him? No, I still haven't. I haven't streamed it. I think I have a transistor I need to replace on the new WOMF board. Because the 7,000 bonus light's always on, so that's my suspected thing. Does it register it? Does it give you the 7,000 points? Oh yeah, scoring's fine. The light's just always on. I see.
    71:30
    I haven't really looked at it. I just turned it on the other day to check something and then I saw, hey, where's that light on? That's not right. Always fun dealing with those Gottliebs.
    71:40
    Yeah, that's also treating up. Gottlieb System 1 coverage on Silver Ball Chronicles. Wow. They're really getting some listens. Them in Final Round. We're going to watch them, Dennis. you're going to take her crown.
    71:55
    Well, they offer something that a lot of other shows don't, including this one. You stop it. And now we're pinball!
    72:06
    Motherfucking market trends. Market trends. Pinball market trends. Bing! I think they appreciate that. That was more a jingle rather than singing. They don't want singing. No jingles? Market trends to not be over ten minutes. I heard if you jingle it more than once, you're playing with it. That's what my mom always said.
    72:28
    Dennis, I've got a question for you. That wasn't the question. Are you up for a new segment before we tell these listeners and lovely people goodbye?
    72:40
    Okay. I didn't really have a bad complaint if you said no to that. Oh, okay. Let's play a new game. It's not even a new game. We're just going to call it a segment. a new segment that we're going to call the pinball shows name that creasel reaction you like the sound of that Dennis no you should rename it I would have went with shock and awe damn it that's better ok now I'm not going to edit this out we're going to go with a new segment called shock and awe I don't know if this sounds cool did you mean for the awe to be a drawn out Yeah, yeah, I thought that was just because, you know, shock and awe sound too similar. But if it's like awe and shock, it's more like, oh, gasp. Trying to convey both extremes.
    73:30
    Cute puppies and, oh, no, the entire town is in flame because a cow kicked a lamp. That's why they pay you the big bitcoins. All right, so, listener, here's the deal. You are informed as much about this segment as the host, Dennis Creasel. Here's what's going to happen. I have all kinds of juicy, juicy, non-arable information. Some of this information is scandalous.
    73:57
    Some of this information is really exciting, but I can't do anything with it. But in confidentiality, I can talk to one of my best buddies, Dennis Creasel, about it. And what we're going to do in this segment is I'm going to mute out everything. For God's sake, believe me. I've got to mute it all out, but what we're going to pick up on is Dennis Creasel's reaction to this newfound information. I can assure you, listener, that this information that Dennis Creasel, I promise you he has not received it.
    74:31
    Even to this, you're hearing my voice, he has not heard of it yet, so he has no clue what it's going to be. But I assure you, this is something that will drastically change the way he views this hobby. Wow. All of the information that I will be giving Dennis can be backed up and is documented. So if he has any question into the truthfulness of it, it's all documented. So I rest assured when he's getting this reaction, it is based on the truth. whoo this sounds edgy what do you think dennis i i don't know it's going to be really confusing to people because they're not going to know what you said well that's the point i mean i know but i just don't know how well that ultimately works essentially it's almost like you're just teasing people with knowledge you have that people can't this kind of information i i wouldn't want to bestow upon people i wouldn't want that for them but you on the other hand you absolutely i had a professor like this who once we it was a political theory class and we had you know we had to read books by lock aristotle lock i've read some luck and but he assigned us some other author who covered nietzsche he didn't assign us one of nietzsche's books and someone in the class asked why are why are we not actually reading nietzsche why are we reading someone's interpretation of nietzsche and he said i never assign undergraduates nietzsche i would you can't read that stuff yeah I hated that class I thought it was going to be Understanding political ideologies And things And instead That's a philosophy class A bunch of Hobbes And Locke And Nietzsche And I struggled It was an honors class too And I struggled mightily with it LeConte You get a little LeConte in there Yeah LeConte too Yes Love it I just I remember all the way up Through the midterms I just could not get my grades Up in that class And it was really hard And I finally went and talked to him I'm like what am I doing wrong This is a total aside I'm like what am I doing wrong because he I gave him like this midterm midterm report massive report and he said that I needed to cover like these additional topics and I said well yeah but I had 28 words left before I hit your limit so what should I have cut to have covered what you want me to cover he's like oh you could have gone over the limit I'm like thus there is a limit I was like, I think I said, oh, what I thought was, fuck you, because that was some bullshit. Don't give a word limit if there's not a limit. I mean, it's like he didn't want me to cut anything, but he wanted me to add more stuff. What a bunch of crap. Maybe he's being meta. I never took another political theory class after that because that burned me so much. Well, he's like, that's a social psychology experiment right there. Are you confined by the suggestions of somebody, by the man? Apparently I was. Apparently? We're just sitting here playing by the rules. Rule follower. So we'll play by your rules here too because that's all I do is play by the rules. No, we need to rebel, Dennis. No, we don't. God, no, we don't. I've seen a little bit of that, little hints here and there. We don't want that. All right, Dennis, here we go.
    77:41
    Prepare for your world to be changed. so Dennis with that being said reaction wow that truly right tell the listener was that pretty eye opening and were you expecting something like that I was not surprising um uh in a way some things that didn't always make sense to me make more sense with that knowledge now but i'm oh loss for words here well i'm i'm concerned that that this isn't legal oh wow interesting take i mean i'm not an attorney so i can't i can't give i can't give a legal opinion on it but uh wow concerned that it is illegal that that wouldn't have been disclosed is my concern yes my concern as well but has nothing to do with me so it is what it is but that uh shed a little light there so if you were naming your emotion here in this segment of shock yeah no not all it's more more more on the shocked more on the shocked level uh i'm not like conceptually the idea behind it i get like i i see the attractiveness of it but i'm not sure that all the proper steps were followed to actually do that in a legitimate fashion yeah i don't know the details of that to know whether or not it was but that's a big one. That's pinball. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was the pinball show's shock and awe. Nice little fun segment there. But, uh, I'm sorry, Dennis. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm not sure I wanted to know that.
    79:52
    That was one hell of an episode, Dennis. Thanks, listeners, for tuning in again. Sorry for the break. We're back, and I'm happy to be here. Where can people find more, uh, more Dennis Creasel? I can always go over to eclecticgamers.com or email eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com and I check that pretty regularly. Nice. And they should subscribe to your Twitch channel too. If they want to. Yeah, if they want to. You can catch me at straight in the middle of pinball show, sdtmpinball at gmail.com. We have a lot of fan interaction in the comments section, so pay attention to that. We have some free giveaways there too. If you want to win some Stern banners and different things we're going to be doing and we're currently doing, so check that out. as well as Flippin' Out Pinball streaming. We've got to stream this Monday night for BD and Bill in Studio B of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pro. And hopefully I'll jump back onto streaming. Check out Travis Murie and all his YouTube and streaming channels,
    80:50
    because Flippin' Out Pinball is doing sponsorship with him. He just did receive a TMNT LE, so you're going to see Travis streaming that. And he has a Hot Wheels on order, too, so you're going to see that as well. And I'm telling you people, go subscribe and follow to his YouTube channel because it is highly produced and it is very contemporary and very much what other people on YouTube are doing, not in pinball. It just makes sense. He's got good entertainment value, good equipment. Go follow and subscribe to Marv Loco over on YouTube. And if you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine like a Toidles or an upcoming rumored game from a manufacturer like CGC, I wonder what that's going to be, or a little JJPX, hit us up at FlippinOutPinball, 812-457-9711, or Zach, Z-A-C-H, at FlippinOutPinball.com, or on the website FlippinOutPinball.com. Get yourself an Escalera. I used one yesterday. Oh, saved my life. TPN stuff, we would appreciate a review on iTunes. We need to get those reviews up on that. Checking out our website at thepinballnetwork.net. Emailing us at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. Following us on Facebook and YouTube. Those are really important too, especially the Facebook. The Facebook stuff is really, really good because we're always giving you updates with what's going on in pinball and what's going on specifically with streamers and podcasts. It's like your one-stop source for all information and entertainment there, so check that out. So what's going on this past week at TPN that we missed during our break? We had a final round episode, number 11. They had Andre Massinkoff in, a West Coast competitive player, really fun guy to listen to, so check that out. We had just another pinball podcast, episode 5. A really nice take on just finding some positivity in pinball, and we're poo-pooed on that with negativity sometimes about talking so positively, but it's a good take by Joel over there at Just Another Pinball. Also, we have a new podcast alert, Jesse J's Pinball Adventures. Did you hear this one? Yep, I did. Woo! The return of Ryan C. He's the co-host of this new podcast on TPN, and his friend Jesse J, as she traverses through being a pinball noob and learning all of – I'm scared. I'm terrified that she's learning everything from Ryan C., but it's very entertaining. She's snarkier than he is. She is. And sometimes filthier, too. My word. Not safe for children. Yeah, that one is definitely deserving of the explicit tag. That ain't no lie. I mean, their first episode title was... Zingy Bingy. Yeah, and they talk about that. Oh, man. I felt like I needed a bath after that discussion. You can also check out Silver Ball Chronicles when they discuss Gottlieb System 1 in their upcoming episode is going to be covering Steve Ritchie, The Mulle Ears. Mm-hmm. Yep. Everybody's anticipating that. The second part of their Steve Ritchie saga. Mm-hmm. And we made an appearance on Silver Ball Stories episode 4, The Pendersons. Yeah, I did a commercial thing for him. An 80s, 90s sitcom take on a pinball story. And I will tell people that was actually, because people are like, where did this story come from? That was actually based on a true story from one of my experiences.
    84:18
    Dramatized and actually under-dramatized in some situations. But the Pendersons, check that out. Coming up this week on TPN is going to be some fresh new streams. We have all those new streamers. You're going to hear those announcements here soon, as well as all the regular podcasts. So stay tuned for that. So for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. Be nice to each other, play some pinball, and don't be out of quarters. That's actually a good tagline there, dude. Nice job. There's a little twist on a little coast-to-coast thing. I know. Yeah, I caught that. Okay, good. Yeah, I caught that. I like that. And always practice safe pinball. And one million views up. Bye-bye now. Go Chiefs! Ow!
    85:12
    Thank you.