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DPP #133 "It was Lawlor all along! LE price drops"

Don's Pinball Podcast (regular feed)·podcast_episode·35m 21s·analyzed·Jul 7, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Incomplete pinball code at $13k price point unsustainable; John Wick LE prices collapse from $13k to $11k.

Summary

Don discusses incomplete code releases in pinball (particularly John Wick and Venom), compares the trend to video games shipping with day-one patches, and argues for either more feature-complete releases or dynamic pricing to reflect game quality and market reception. He also corrects earlier misinformation about Pat Lawlor designing Funhouse, reports on John Wick LE price drops from $13k to $11k, and highlights American Pinball's deep discounts on Legends of Valhalla.

Key Claims

  • Pat Lawlor designed Funhouse; Brian Eddy is only credited for animations

    high confidence · Don corrects his earlier mistake after community feedback; confirms Lawlor as the designer

  • John Wick LE currently selling on Pinside for $11,000 (down from $13,000), with one example at 60 plays

    high confidence · Don reports seeing two John Wick LE listings on Pinside at $11k, one for 60 plays

  • Venom LE average secondary market price around $9,000; Flippin' Out listed one for $9,500

    high confidence · Don cites secondary market data approximately one year post-release

  • John Wick has 8 modes that are currently indistinguishable in gameplay, lacking call-outs and feedback

    high confidence · Don describes detailed mode experience: all modes feel the same, no clear completion conditions, no rumble integration

  • Dynamic pricing would better reflect game quality than flat $13k pricing across all recent releases

    medium confidence · Don argues Jaws commands $13k but Venom/John Wick should be lower based on theme and code completeness

  • American Pinball's Legends of Valhalla LE available new-in-box for $6,000 through Mad Pinball

    high confidence · Don reports Jeff from Mad Pinball offering Legends of Valhalla LE at $6k to clear inventory

  • Video games now ship incomplete at $60 MSRP requiring 5GB day-one updates before playable

    medium confidence · Don uses video game industry as comparison point; describes typical console game release pattern

  • John Wick music is repetitive and lacks memorable themes; same arrangement plays throughout

    high confidence · Don criticizes music composition despite Pantera musician involvement; describes as generic helicopter-scene music

  • American Pinball running 4th of July sale with $500 off new-in-box prices (except Barry O's Barbecue Challenge)

Notable Quotes

  • “If a car was released and only had three tires, you would say it sucks, even if it was a super cool muscle car that eventually, with the right equipment, could be amazing.”

    Don (quoting another community member's criticism of John Wick) @ ~10:30 — Encapsulates the core tension: incomplete code at premium prices is unacceptable regardless of future potential

  • “These modes are completely like vanilla pudding without... It's like eating unflavored yogurt, you know, it's got the flavor, kind of like that just kind of generic-y kind of flavor without even being vanilla.”

    Don @ ~12:00 — Vivid description of John Wick's current mode experience—indistinguishable and unmemorable

  • “I would say if you were considering purchasing one of these, hard to argue with a $2,000 discount right off the bat for a game that's been played 60 times.”

    Don @ ~15:45 — Notes market is rapidly devaluing John Wick LE despite minimal play; signals collector confidence crisis

  • “These are $10,000, $12,000, $13,000, and then $11,000 a month later games that we're seeing out there.”

    Don @ ~06:00 — Establishes the core problem: rapid price collapses indicate pricing strategy is disconnected from actual market value

  • “What does it do? I have no idea. But I think eventually we'll get there. But for right now, I have no idea what's going on.”

    Don (on John Wick's WIC Points system) @ ~22:00 — Illustrates incomplete feature implementation—game mechanics exist but lack function or explanation

  • “If Pokemon was being released and it was Jack Danger's sophomore cornerstone... I could see that holding on to that same value. But if it's going to be Dungeons & Dragons based not on a movie, only on a tabletop license... I wouldn't take the risk at $13,000.”

    Don @ ~28:30 — Demonstrates licensing and designer pedigree heavily influence whether games justify premium pricing

  • “Venom probably sold out. John Wick LE definitely has not sold out. They available new in box everywhere.”

Entities

DonpersonPat LawlorpersonBrian EddypersonJohn WickgameVenomgameJawsgameFunhouse 2.0game

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Three-tier LE/Premium/Pro pricing model showing signs of unsustainability; market self-correcting through secondary sales as collectors recognize poor value at $13k price point

    high · Don proposes dynamic pricing and states 'unless it's an Elwynn and unless it's a banger, I can see it suffering a similar fate and just sitting gathering dust in boxes which is no good for anybody'

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball clearing inventory with extreme discounts: Legends of Valhalla LE available new-in-box for $6,000 (likely 50%+ discount from MSRP)

    high · Don reports Jeff from Mad Pinball offering Legends of Valhalla LE at '$6,000 American dollars... sounds like they need some room more than they need to wait'

  • ?

    community_signal: Don inviting community to visit Bellingham, Washington 1UP Lounge during Jaws LE unboxing event; planning multi-day location visit to support arcade operations

    high · Don: 'I'm flying out there Wednesday... Thursday is the day we're going to rip it open' and 'Drop by 1UP Lounge... Wednesday through Friday/Saturday'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Stern's three-tier pricing (Pro/Premium/LE) showing insufficient differentiation; LE price premiums not justified by features, contributing to secondary market collapse

    medium · Don criticizes lack of differentiation between Premium and LE on recent releases; proposes dynamic pricing based on actual game quality rather than flat tier structure

  • ?

    design_philosophy: John Wick's music composition criticized as repetitive and generic; single arrangement throughout game lacks memorable themes despite Pantera musician involvement

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.106

0:00
I think we're settled. I think we're ready to record. Are you ready in the booth? Already in here, Don. All right, 3, 2, 1, you can just go ahead and hit that drop.
0:09
All right, watch this. Hey, everybody, what's going on? It's Don's Pinball Podcast, episode number 133 for your face. Can you get ready? Can you prepare yourself to hear the amazing amount of information coming at you? What's going on with these crazy Stern LE prices? All that and more. Let's go, sponsors.
0:30
Should I do a little comment or just let this play? Okay, all right, we'll do that. Hey, I need a refill on my Diet Coke.
0:48
Can I get a little more reverb in my monitor? Great. Hey, everybody, what's going on? It's Don back to your... I'm not going to keep up that attitude. We're not doing that. free fall prices with LEs. First it was Venom, now it's John Wick. Going to get into that. But first off, a correction and a thank you to the community for emailing me about how graciously and gratefully wrong I was about Pat Lawler doing Funhaus. Now, this sucks because I'm not like a complete expert when it comes to pinball. I guess compared to general public, I'm fairly in the know, capital N as we say. But, and I mean, okay.
1:32
So I knew this. I knew this was a Pat Waller game, like, in my head. I've just heard it, you know, around, especially when we were talking about Toy Story 4 and the other games that he's done. And I was playing Funhaus, the remake, at District 1, Stevens Point, Wisconsin. What state am I in? And as I was playing it, like, I looked down real quick, and I see Brian Eddy's name there, like, on the play field in the out lane. And I was like, well, that's surprising. I wasn't sure that I didn't think he did this. Okay, fine. We'll just go with it. And that's as far as I took it because I was playing. I was on location. Other people were waiting to get in on this game, so I didn't go through and read. So what had happened was what I read was the credits for the animations, which is what Brian and I did with Funhaus, or at least what he's credited for on the Outlane. But this is Pat Waller game. So thank you to the multitude of people who reached out with the corrections. Not afraid of correcting myself. If I'm wrong, let me know. I'd rather be correct than say that I'm completely right. But I knew that. I mean, I don't know that I ever went through Pinside or the IPDB or whatever and ran down the list of the top potluller games. Maybe I'll save that for another cast or something where we run down top tens. But that's what had happened. I was playing. I glanced down. Oh, Eddie. Surprising. And then I moved on to playing other stuff because people were waiting to play Funhaus. So that's what happened. It happened. Okay. Apology. But thanks for community for reaching out. The main topic that I wanted to get into two days, hence my last podcast episode, was a Facebook post I came across where a very reasonable argument was made as to the state of new pinball machines coming out with incomplete code. And, I mean, I guess this is looking back, you know, a trend that we've just come to expect now, especially from the likes of, you know, Stern Pinball, who has, you know, hard and fast deadlines. They want to get three cornerstone machines out a year now, increase the rate, so we're going to get games that come out and they're not complete. Now, we've seen this in video games for quite some time. It used to be that the game was complete, they put it out there. Once the disc was out, that was it. With modern consoles now, though, it's very easy to offer cloud updates to games to the point that games now will ship, even if you are still buying video games, actually physical media in the box, which I guess Walmart still sells them, Target does, but for the most part, I think at least 50-50 is all online orders. But basically, you are buying games that are essentially incomplete in the box. You put that disc in your machine, and the first thing it does is prompts you for a 5-gigabyte update, right, before it will even play. So video games have been shipping at full MSRP of a shocking $60, incomplete for years now, and that's just accepted. And so now the argument was we're seeing the same thing in pinball, and dang it, should we stand for it or not? Now, these are not $60 machines. These are $10,000, $12,000, $13,000, and then $11,000 a month later games that we're seeing out there. So for this cost and this large amount of money, I think a very reasonable argument could be made that these things should be more feature-complete for that price. Now, the other perspective to this is that these updates are free. The game is released. You pay your fee, whatever it is, to get this new in-box machine. And then as code updates come, they're available to you. It's not a paid upgrade yet. I don't think that the game's basic code should be anything that is an upcharge or behind a paywall. We'll see what happens over the next few years or even over the next nine months with regard to that. but as far as like you know the games coming out as long as they're updated for free as time goes on i'm kind of okay with it so here's the two perspectives right should these games be released more feature complete or is it okay to release them get them out there and update them as time goes right so here's the thing so john wick let's take the latest release it is fairly barren when it comes to code i'll cover more of that in a second here but here are the options right it's going to take time for this code to mature, you know, sometime over the next nine months. Jaws is still getting there, although I would say Jaws released a little more feature complete, but it sounds like it was in development longer. But here's the thing, you know, a game like John Wick, do we want to wait another nine months for this game to release, or is it okay for it to release, given that it's not quite feature complete, but at least it can get out there, and it can get in arcades and get some plays? I can see both sides of this argument. You know, a game like Jaws that comes out, it's been in development for a while longer than some of the other games. It was rumored to have been done for quite a while. And I think that speaks to how far along the code is. We heard the same thing with Venom. And so, yeah, I mean, it is nice when a game releases and it has that robust code in it. But the flip side of that is if it's not quite robust yet, it's not going to come out. And then, you know, we may be left dangling with nothing new to throw into the arcades or to satiate our unreasonable appetite for having the newest machine in our homes constantly. I seem to fall on the side of I'd like these games to get released so I can get out there, play them, start making mods for them, and then I like to grow with the machine as well. However, there is a downside to that. So take James Bond, right? This was a game that was hampered in development, not because of development labor, but because every single change had to go through this slow, rusty meat grinder of a process with licensor approval from what I know or what I've heard. So this game came out, again, just like John Wick, pretty barren. And then I do think that hurt the reputation of the game going forward. Now, I will agree the code is absolutely slamming. But at this point, you know, a year and a half later after the release, I'm kind of completely over Bond, even though Bond's probably playing the best that it has this entire time. Its newness has worn off. I've moved on to other things. Spooky's had some cool releases. We see Labyrinth come out, and John is tearing up the charts. So, you know, to go back to Bond now, it's, you know, a bit of a, okay, yeah, that game did come out. Let's go back and revisit it. So there is that downside to them coming out. But I will say that as a homeowner, somebody who does play these games and not just look at them, I do like advancing with the code as it comes out. So this is, I guess, similar to following a television series that comes out. and the series or season one is released, you go ahead and watch that, and then you're kind of caught up in the story with whatever's going on, if it's hitting at that cultural apex. And then when the next season comes out, like, you're watching it along with everybody else. It feels like there's kind of this communal thing going. Rather than going back to, like, Breaking Bad now if you've never watched it, still a great film or a great series of film television episodes, you know, but, you know, there's not, like, this big cultural movement behind it like there was when it came out, right? So you missed that part of it, but, I mean, the series is completely there. You can binge-watch the entire thing in, you know, it's probably 96 hours of content, you know, if you so choose. So I guess the argument could be said similarly with something like A Breaking Bad where everything is out right now it the best it ever been everything is available but culturally it not quite that flashpoint So I like to ride the hype train man you know me I got this reputation for buying everything I think that's not quite accurate, but I have been getting a lot. But at the same time, I've had a growing arcade for the past couple of years, and my trajectory of new purchases is definitely leveling off now that I'm at, like, Mount Everest peaks of having plenty of games. So now I'm more in the, you know, do I want this? okay, if I want it, do I want it more than I want to keep something else? So yeah, I don't know. Let me know what you think. Email me. Let's comment on Discord and Facebook. Should games release with code pending? Is that acceptable to you? I don't think we'll ever see a point where games release for less cost, and then when the code comes out and is complete, you have to pay the rest of that fee. I don't think that's workable at all. But I would like to talk about another trend that I see right around the corner, and I'm sure the other major companies are thinking about that as well. So how is John Wick itself playing now? I'm sure by now everybody's at least been able to get their hands on a pro, at least in the United States. I know they're still slow to kind of cross out and get out there and permeate the Australian Outback and such, the Outback pin shacks, if it were. But right now, somebody else made a criticism that John Wick sucks and got some blowback from some people. They're like, no, the shots are fun, the code will get there. And his point was that the game sucks right now. You know, he made it akin to, you know, if a car was released and only had three tires, you would say it sucks, even if it was a super cool muscle car that eventually, with the right equipment, could be amazing. So I can, I understand. You know, maybe a little troll-y in the description, but I think it's apt. So for John Wick right now, what do you have? You have three multiballs in the game, right? You get the, on the LE and the premium, you can have the physical ball lock for that, is it the deconcentrated? I'm still trying to keep up with these names. There's a deconsecrated multi-ball, and then there's like the helipad showdown excommunicado, right? So, you know, bash the car a bunch of times, do the helicopter showdown multi-ball, bash the other captive ball, and then lock balls and the other thing for the disco ball party multi-ball. And then somehow you can trigger, and I haven't read through the rules yet, the little dance party multi-ball that's back there. So there's those three. There's about eight different modes in the game that all have lit inserts down there. These are the ones that are started on the crate shot, right in the same spot that the Q Lab is on Bond. And they all play, to me, exactly the same. They're completely like vanilla pudding without... No, they're like... You ever buy yogurt that's unflavored, like you would use it for cooking or for making sauce or something? It's like eating that, right? It's yogurt. It's got the flavor, kind of like that just kind of generic-y kind of flavor without even being vanilla. So essentially, you start a mode. They're all different colors. All the inserts seem to be lit, and there's supposed to be some kind of strategy to each one, but it's completely indecipherable to me. The modes are boring right now. There's lit lights, lit inserts for the ramps. You hit the shots. Occasionally, you get jackpots. What you're supposed to do, I have no idea. I read the little rules when it comes up on the screen, but honestly, there's no feedback. There's no call-outs. There's no rumble integration. There's no flashing light shows to depict where I'm supposed to be or what I'm supposed to do. I can see the cleverness behind some of these modes where all the inserts will be lit up just white, and then as you hit the shot, you're looking for the hidden one. And once you trigger it, then one of them will change color to red, and that's the one you have to go after. So I'm sure eventually, once the call-outs are there, the light show's there, the rules are kind of spoken out at you in theme with characters, I think it'll be fun and robust. But right now, I don't get these modes at all. You go into one, and then you essentially play it until you drain. I don't even know how to complete these modes. So far, I don't know if I've ever completed one of them. And I've had some fairly good games scoring greater than 100 million points, which for me, I found on John Wick with Current Code, is a fairly good game.

high confidence · Don mentions ongoing American Pinball promotion; notes exclusion of one title

  • Cuphead rumored as American Pinball's next release after Legends of Valhalla and Barry O's Barbecue Challenge

    low confidence · Don states 'still hearing rumors' about Cuphead; unconfirmed speculation

    • Don @ ~20:15 — Market saturation indicates weaker demand for John Wick LE than Venom, contrary to hype cycle expectations

  • “For $6,000 American dollars for an American pinball machine for a Legends of Valhalla LE... holy crap man sounds like they need some room more than they need to wait.”

    Don @ ~35:30 — Signals American Pinball's inventory pressure and clearance pricing for boutique manufacturer

    • Legends of Valhalla
    game
    Barry O's Barbecue Challengegame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Mad Pinballcompany
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Jeff (Mad Pinball)person
    1UP Loungecompany
    Keith Elwinperson
    George Gomezperson
    Jack Dangerperson
    Pantera (musician)person
    Deadpoolgame

    high · Don: 'The music in John Wick is okay... I hear the same song the whole time... sounds like a different arrangement of really the same type of music' and 'sounds like the track that would play when you have... a helicopter approaching'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: James Bond pinball's slow licensor approval process hampered code development at release, contributing to perception of incomplete game despite eventual code quality

    high · Don: 'This was a game that was hampered in development... every single change had to go through this slow, rusty meat grinder of a process with licensor approval' resulting in 'barren' release

  • $

    market_signal: John Wick LE did not sell out; games available 'new in box everywhere' indicating weaker demand than Venom and market saturation from production volume

    high · Don: 'Venom probably sold out. John Wick LE definitely has not sold out. They available new in box everywhere.'

  • $

    market_signal: John Wick LE collapsing from $13,000 MSRP to $11,000 on secondary market within months of release; two active Pinside listings at reduced prices indicate market oversupply and buyer resistance

    high · Don reports seeing two John Wick LE listings at $11k (one at 60 plays, one firm price dropped from $12k to $11k); compares to Venom LE at $9k average one year post-release

  • ?

    product_strategy: John Wick released with incomplete code expected to mature over approximately 9 months; Stern shipping 3 cornerstone games yearly with hard deadlines forcing premature releases

    high · Don states games 'come out and they're not complete' due to Stern's production deadlines; expects John Wick code to improve 'over the next nine months'

  • ?

    product_concern: John Wick shipped with 8 generic, indistinguishable modes lacking gameplay feedback, call-outs, rumble integration, or clear completion conditions; modes described as 'vanilla pudding without flavor'

    high · Don details extensive gameplay experience: 'They're completely like vanilla pudding... completely indistinguishable to me' and 'I don't even know how to complete these modes'; notes lack of feedback mechanics across all modes

  • ?

    rumor_hype: American Pinball's Cuphead pinball in development rumored as next release after Legends of Valhalla and Barry O's Barbecue Challenge

    low · Don: 'Speaking of American Pinball... Cuphead, I'm still hearing rumors that that's what's coming next. I really hope it's a banger.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community skepticism toward $13,000 pricing tier for non-flagship titles; secondary market pricing revealing which games justify premium pricing and which don't

    high · Don argues only Jaws of recent releases commands $13k; suggests dynamic pricing model where game quality/theme determines price ($11.9k-$12.9k range)

    • 12:55
    You've gotten multiple multi-balls. You've had some killer balls go around. You got an extra ball or two. You battled some of the other boss characters or whatnot. But like hitting these shots, I'm just hitting the lights, and then at some point I drain, whether I hit three of them, whether I hit 12 of them, and I don't know if it's even programmed for these modes to end, right? Let alone a mini wizard mode or other wizard mode. I have noticed that if you play a few of these modes, then one of the five boss characters will light up. You start that at the left scoop, and then they seem to also have some nuance too. And I think that's where the biggest gains can be made with this game's code. Right now, I don't know. I try to get a multi-ball ready to start, and then I start a mode and then trigger the multi-ball. That seems to give me the best scores that I've found. But as far as, like, what I'm supposed to do in each mode, whether it's the purple mode, the yellow mode, the white mode, the green mode, they're all completely the same to me. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing. And so for that reason, I would say, like, if this was as good as the game ever gets, complete mediocrity. However, shots feel good. I'm finding them. I think I'll learn to appreciate this game like I appreciate Venom. I like finding the shots on there. Venom is more of a fan layout than this does.
    14:09
    But I think the comparison is fairly apt. I will say theme-wise, this is much better than Venom. I like the fit and finish and details on this much better as well. I still have some love for Venom, but I think John Wick can easily surpass it and be kind of like a Bond-era type level game. Hopefully eventually get to the point where it plays like a Deadpool, It plays like a Bond. It's got a lot of that Gomez feel to it. So that's what I'm expecting. That's what I'm expecting. Do you want to experience a John Wick limited edition in your own home? Do you want to experience this game with the colorful back glass that looks like stained glass, comes outfitted with all the flashy lights, the shaker motor, the piece of John Wick's costume, the Invisiglass and all that? Do you want to experience it in your home? Do you want to experience it for only $11,000? because right now on Pinside you have the opportunity, two of them in fact, to pick up a John Wick LE, barely played, not even 100 plays, ready to go, 11K out the door. I would say if you were considering purchasing one of these, hard to argue with a $2,000 discount right off the bat for a game that's been played 60 times. Now this kind of sounds like almost maybe open box kind of buy thing, not accusing anybody of anything. Maybe somebody just, you know, they were planning on getting this LE. They got it. Maybe they want to move on to Alice in Wonderland or a Funhaus. They're like, you know what? I'll get what I can get. Let's drop the price. But one of them is up there right now for 60 plays, $11,000. I don't even know that you can really even explore this game fully, even as it is in only 60 plays. Another one was set firm price at $12,000, and then that firm price at $12,000 has now dropped to $11,000 to match. So there you go, man. And, you know, I don't think you could lose out too much on that. Venom right now, LE, about, has it been a year since it came out? It was, we're coming up to almost a year since the review. It was July of last year for Venom. These are trading in some cases down in the $8,000 range. Flippin' Out just listed one for $9,500. So I think that's kind of the range right now. Say a mean average of $9,000 of value for a Venom LE. I think that is reasonable to the point I'm even considering it at this point because I don't hate the game. I love how the code progresses and everything. A game with a simple layout, but an integrated code, I think it really shows where there's potential in these games to improve. I hope WIC will get there, especially with its WIC points. Again, the WIC points. What the hell are these things for? I'm at level 27. Makes no difference. Has no impact on anything. It's just kind of fun to hear that little sound when you level up. What does it do? I have no idea. But I think eventually we'll get there. But for right now, I have no idea what's going on. So please bring us some more code updates for John Wick. I'd love to see that. I am happy to hear that there are some movie call-outs that are showing up now in the latest code update. Super cool. The mod people are bringing out some cool stuff. I've got a couple cool things available for it as well. Maybe I'll advertise that in a little bit. But right now, man, $11,000. So back to Venom, average price of $9,000. I could see John Wick maybe following suit, although I do think this is a better theme. 10k by Christmas may be where this thing lands if there needs to be a fire sale maybe you'll find one for $9,500 I can see this holding a little more value because it is fun and I don't think as many people rushed out to get it like rushed out and got Venom. Venom probably sold out John Wick LE definitely has not sold out They available new in box everywhere They available just out of the box for So for that reason I think this may fare a little bit better than Venom But I think flipping John McAlee for is straight out I don't see that happening. But this speaks to a larger trend, right? I think John's LE did quite well, but that's an L1 game. It's an incredibly nostalgic license. It has absolutely every movie asset in there from the get-go. But, you know, the shark didn't eat the ball. It can now for an upgrade from interactive pinball. The game is just super fun. People are enjoying the hell out of it. I loved it. I'm going to go unbox my game at 1UP Lounge later this week. Yeah, it's Sunday. Yeah, so I'm flying out there Wednesday, I think, and Thursday is the day we're going to rip it open. So look for that. If you're in the Pacific Northwest in Bellingham, Washington, drop by 1UP Lounge. I'll be there on Thursday, probably Friday. I'm going to next level on Saturday. so if you're in the region there and want to hang out I'm probably going to be there all day I don't have a rental car I heard there's food trucks and pinball so that's where I'll be parked so if you've got granola and dreadlocks come by, let's hang out I'll bring my skate, dude, you can challenge me to a game of skate and you'll probably beat me because my Achilles is bugging me a little bit but hey, we'll have fun, we'll do some slappies on some curbs we'll jump down a three set it'll be cash, man so check that out but I can see this game, Jaws holding onto its value a little bit more. But Venom, John Wick, probably going to suffer similar fates. And then it makes me wonder about what's going to happen in the future. So like most other things right now, are we going to see dynamic pricing applied to pinball? I'm sure these discussions have already been had at places like Stern and others, like what should we do? Should we stick with this pricing that we're at? You know, what seemed to make sense during the peak of COVID definitely doesn't make sense now. but do you just do an across the board price drop? Do you drop to 12.5? Do you drop to 12 for your LEs? Do you keep the premiums at 96 or you go down to 92? I think what would make a lot more sense if I was making decisions with my lack of a business degree and community college education I would say dynamic pricing would apply much better I could say if any game was worth $13,000 out the gate new in box right now. Of the last four releases, I'm talking about Foo Fighters, Venom, Jaws, and John Wick. I think Jaws is the one that really commands that price. Foo Fighters, I think its price has fallen too, again, because there's so many of them out there, not because it's a likeluster game. There wasn't that much differentiation between Premium and LE when it came to Foo Fighters. Venom, there really isn't either. Jaws definitely has a lot of accoutrement on there, and John Wick just looks amazing. So we've seen that separation as far as trim level features, but we're still seeing the same price across the board and can this continue? With what we've seen with Venom, with what we've seen with John Wick, unless it's an Elwynn and unless it's a banger, I can see it suffering a similar fate and just sitting gathering dust in boxes which is no good for anybody.
    20:44
    So dynamic pricing. So this is when a game that's compelling can release for that $12,999. A game that maybe is a little less compelling, $11,900 to $12,500 let's say. They'll have to kind of judge that based on, you know, demand, pre-orders, deposit lists, you know, whatever. Hogwarts, whatever's coming out from Jersey Jack, if it's a banger, I think that's fine at the current pricing levels. But if it's going to be like a Toy Story 4 level game, it should have been way less. So are we going to start seeing that? I know these discussions have to be happening right now when they're looking at, you know, feedback from the distributors, games that are being sold at genuine discounts with only a modicum of plays. we're either going to see that where the market is self-stabilizing this or we will see it where Stern takes the lead on it. So what do you guys think? Dynamic pricing and pinball. Does that make sense? Pros, I could see them holding steady. Premiums, I could see them budge a little bit. The LEs, though, I think is where you're really going to have to see that swing between $11.5 and $12.999 if this is going to continue.
    21:49
    Let's see, if Pokemon was being released and it was Jack Danger's sophomore cornerstone and just had expression lights and awesome code and leveling up and card trading and scanning and all kinds of fun stuff, I could see that holding on to that same value. But if it's going to be Dungeons & Dragons based not on a movie, only on a tabletop license, it could be a great dragons and swords and magic spells kind of game, but I wouldn't take the risk at that at $13,000, not with what I've seen. I would sit back and wait for an open box at $11 or $10.50 or pick one up used nine months later for $9 if that was going to be the case. So, yeah, maybe we'll see some dynamic dynacisms in the pricing when it comes to that. Again, I don't know. Let me know what you think. I'm just speaking off the top of my head, but that's what I could say. Oh, one more point about where John Wick is at right now. Can we talk about the music? I know this was lauded a little bit that one of the guys from Pantera came by to help compose some of the music. The music in John Wick is okay. It's just I hear the same song the whole time I'm playing, or what sounds like a different arrangement of really the same type of music. This has got to get better. I need some banger themes. I need some musical moments in this game, because the whole thing just plays like just kind of this standard, like, you know, it sounds like the track that would play when you have, like, a wide establishing shot of a helicopter approaching the top of a skyscraper for, like, some high-level meeting, you know. That's what it sounds like to me. And it's like that throughout the entirety of the game. It's not really punctuated by any kind of sound effects. I do love the gunshots and the shaker motor integration, but, man, I can't wait for this code to improve. Now, am I going to go list my John Wick at $11,000 and try to parachute myself out of this, perhaps, falling price game? I'm not. I'm not. Because I am having fun with it. I've made some modifications for it, did a start button for it. I've got a modified coin door panel that goes over where the bill acceptor goes that holds one of the medallions that you can go find yourself online. I've got a stack of about 10 of them if anybody would be interested. I know the medallions sell for about 20 bucks on Amazon. I'll charge 20 bucks for my panel. So 40 bucks, I'll send you one of these ready to install on your coin door if you want to add a little medallion. And since it fits in a standard coin door, you can use it for any trim level of John Wick or really any other game you want to. Just throw one in there. But yeah, I'm having fun with the game. I'm having fun with it. making little things for it. So I want to hold onto it cause I believe in this code and the game is just pretty man. Like it can sit here just as an art piece and looks fantastic. Um, you know, I could probably list it for 11 and join the fray or listed for like 10, eight and sell it tomorrow. Um, you know, and then buy it again for nine, five, but I'd be missing out on a lot of gameplay. So I think for me, I'm going to keep it. Um, I'm going to let the code, uh, evolve and I think it'll get there, but it's probably going to take about nine months or so. But again, And this was game four of four of my let me see if I can just have all the new sterns. And so I'm now out of that. Now I'll only buy one if I'm really compelled to get it and compelled enough to go ahead and sell something I already have. And I've got a lineup of bangers behind me. So that's going to be something that's going to need to be earth shattering for me to move on it. The other part of that for me is if a brand new game comes out and it's not quite worth selling Elvira Blood Red Kiss, which I just got a billion points on the other day. That's okay. It can go on location, and I can have a reason to go out to the location and play the games. I think that's fun. I think that's worthwhile. And one downside I saw to always owning the brand-new thing that came out is when it hit the arcades, I really wasn't compelled to go there because I had a better lineup at home. And I want to get back into going out to the locations and enjoying some time out there and supporting my people out on the floor. So that's where I'm at with all this. But otherwise, the game's fun. Let's just wait for it to evolve. All right, what else do we got? What else do we got? Do you want a deal? Talking about deals, American Pinball. So they, you know, of course, had this 4th of July sale. I think it's still going on where it's $500 off all new in box prices for whatever game they have. Except Barry O's Barbecue Challenge. Come on, guys. Give me the $500 barbecue discount. Well, I've heard there have been even further price reductions. And Jeff from Mad Pinball reached out to me. You can reach him at jeffatmadpinball.com or corbinatmadpinball.com. Tell the guys I said what up. Tell them that you think they should take their favorite podcaster out for some ribs or something. Or buy a game from them if you want But they got a deal right now on Legends of Valhalla limited edition in a box new for like a price that so insane I don even think I can advertise it do you guys want to hear what it is you want to hear what I heard? I heard $6,000 American dollars for an American pinball machine for a Legends of Valhalla LE from jeffandmattpinball.com holy crap man sounds like they need some room more than they need to wait and try to wring money out of everybody so they're like you know what let's just get these moved on to new homes anybody that's out there looking for that mirrored back glass and like the moving hammer thing and those cool magnets underneath the play field I think this is my favorite American pinball game that's been released of all time the Legends of Valhalla I don't quite have room in the lineup for one here but it is a game that when I go to shows and I see them listed for sale I kind of do hesitate and think about it I don't know that Hot Wheels would be compelling enough to have at home I find Houdini and Octoberfest more frustrating only because of the potential I want to see them at. But Legends of Valhalla seems to strike the balance of being fun to shoot, okay enough to play, the animations all kind of make sense, it's all on theme. I really wish Berrio's Barbecue Challenge had animations that were more in line on the scale of Legends of Valhalla.
    27:42
    So there's that. Speaking of American Pinball, so if you want to go buy a cheap game right now, a new box, I mean, have at it. Email Jeff. What, what? But so speaking of them, Cuphead, I'm still hearing rumors that that's what's coming next. I really hope it's a banger. I think they could really use one.
    28:00
    But at this point, I'm just casually sitting back and watching. It's really like we're living in American Pinball's world, American Pinball's reality. Like it's their reality, and we're just kind of living in it. So I'm just going to see what comes next from them. But Cuphead, I really hope at this point With the other rumors of games that are coming out If this is going to be the late summer, fall release From American Pinball This has to be their banger, man This is going to have to sustain them for the next year You know, Galactic Tank Force came out TPF a year ago And that's their newest release Well, Berrio, it was just dropped When did that drop right before? Was it MGC? I think it was MGC, it was the first time we really saw those At a show So, but whatever. You know, Berrio's out right now. Not a strong seller, not a compelling theme. A difficult time in the market in general for this type of game. I don't think it performed that well at TPF. It was at TPF, that's right. The games at TPF weren't playing as well as other ones I've played on location. And I think that led to the game being judged rather harshly. It seemed like the games were opened up out of a box, set up, and then that's how they were. They weren't fine-tuned and tilted and leveled properly. or the flipper strength wasn't adjusted or calibrated or something because it was having some trouble getting the balls up the ramps, which is kind of the whole thing that game has to offer, is it shots with the spinners on the ramps. You want to rip the ramp and rip the spinner and see that thing spinning. So for it to go up there and just kind of meander through was very much not satisfying. I will say playing it at Interium, it plays a heck of a lot better than the ones that TPF did and some of the ones I've played at shows. So, you know, it's not an awful game. I'm kind of endeared on the license a little bit. just because it's so bizarre and I love absurd things. But it's definitely not a banger. It's not a banger game setting sales records, setting the world on fire, selling before they can be made. Definitely not. So I want to see the next one be a banger. I want Cuphead to be that.
    30:00
    I wouldn't bet on it. And some rumors have drifted back to me from people that allegedly have played it. I've heard it's not a banger. It's okay. I don't know what that means. I haven't seen it. I would love to come and see it and just give everybody like the straight dope on it, just like I did with Barry O's Barbecue Challenge. That was fantastic. So American Pinball, if you're listening, I'm happy to come on down, man. I'll stop by and pick up some donuts up the street because that donut shop just north right past the Amazon distribution warehouse is completely fantastic. It's called like Krusty Dave's or something, or it's got some kind of like weird crumbly sounding name or something. It looks like a classic old donut place, which like I adore. So I'll swing by with the donuts. Let me come by and play Cuphead or whatever the rumored new game is so that when you're ready to release it, I can champion it. We're supposed to, from what I'm hearing, nothing to do with this is concrete or official, but Expo would be the show that it would be ready for if the game's ready. I think they want to avoid showing it with too early of code. So we'll see if we see it there. I have faith in them. I think they can pull that off, especially once they clear out some of these ledges of a house. so they can put this thing into production, and then they can hit the show with, like, games ready to go. I think at this point in this market, if you wanted to try to sell Cuphead and, you know, your last couple games or GTF and Burial's Barbecue Challenge, I think what you do is you have them ready to go. You reveal it. Here's the games. Call your distro. Take it off the show floor.
    31:29
    Let's go. You know, if you buy it now, here's a T-shirt, something. You know, like, let's get these games out there and get ahead of the rest of the deluge that no doubt is coming up. so are we going to see dynamic pinball pricing um what's going to happen with the john wick code all that is is why i i have so much fun you know following this hobby because there's so much cool stuff to to go on i'm going to jump back on the wick here in a little bit um i do have one more other thing that i thought would be fun right you know i love doing giveaways i do them during the live streams i do them for the patreon members every month we did three john wick translates this month it was nuts i just wanted to celebrate right uh alternate translates with like the 27 guns and John Wick's face right there in the center. Love it, man. So I got a couple of those left. If you want one, get at me. Otherwise, I thought it would be fun to do a giveaway during a podcast episode because I haven't seen that anybody really does those except for Buffalo Pinball. But they do their podcast as a live stream where they can give them away to people in the Twitch comments. This is a recorded podcast. So the only way I could see this working is basically a mad scramble. You know, whoever listens to this first will be incentivized to win. So I'm not going to take the seventh caller. I'm going to keep this simple. What I want to give away is a Mad Pinball T-shirt. I have them in extra large. I have them in extra, extra large. So, yeah, my shipment came in from Mad. We've got new T-shirts, so I can give away one of them. And then why don't I throw in a Jaws KFC bucket because that thing is funny. Even if you don't have a Jaws machine, maybe you've got a friend with one, maybe you just want to go put it on your nightstand or something because it's hilarious, It's a little 3D-modeled chicken bucket. Cracks me up every time I see it. So I'll include one of those as well. I'll throw in a handful of stickers, maybe a couple drink coasters, whatever else I can find laying around. I'll put it all in a pouch and mail it out to you for free. The only thing you have to do, dear listeners, number one, be interested in the giveaway. Number two, email me at donspinballpodcast at gmail.com. And you would have to have listened to this, so let's just say, let's use Whirlwind again. Email me the name of that Bally Williams game, Whirlwind, fantastic to don's pinball podcast at gmail.com if you want to win this prize package the first person to do that to show up in my email list i'll contact them and tell them they won at that point just email me back your your address and then i'll mail it out simple huh a podcast giveaway i think this is a pinball first um at least i don't see anybody else doing this so so let's do it let's have some fun i feel like going to the mailbox and shipping something out so uh go ahead email me, donspinpodcast.gmail.com. If I got anything else wrong, please feel free to email me. I know you folks know how to find it. Everybody's been gracious about doing that. Pat Lawler did Funhaus, which I knew that, but not enough not to doubt myself when I saw Brian and his name there. Anyway, so that's what was up with that. There's a new We Are Pinball episode, number five that just went up. Go check it out. We're starting to find our flow and the best way to record, so they'll improve as we go out. I do have some We Are Pinball t-shirts coming in. I'm shipping for $25 nationwide if you want one. Right now I have extra large coming. Should be here in a couple of days. I've got a list of orders, but I've got a few more left that are not spoken for. So if you want to get a T, it says WAP, right? Big letters, W-A-P, right? I love it, man. I love it. All right. Otherwise, if you win this contest, I'll throw some WAP stickers in there for you too. It's going to be cool, man. You'll get a whole swag bag of crap from me, and all you've got to do to enter is email. don't let email address again it's don pinball podcast at gmail.com uh jump on the facebook page let's talk about this if you're cool hop on over to the discord because we're having a party over there uh tons of people all kinds of discussion going on it's all good man just having fun and pinball i'm gonna fire up all these games behind me and just go down the line and like play a game on each one and just bask in pinball overload man till next time later