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The Pinball Show Ep 156 BONUS: Can We Really Compare Old Games To New Games?

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·27m 43s·analyzed·Jul 3, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Debate: can old licensed pinball games (Back to the Future, Super Mario) be compared to modern LCD-era immersive experiences?

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts debate whether older pinball machines with licensed themes can be fairly compared to modern LCD-era games. The core tension: while older games (alphanumeric, early DMD) had licensed IPs like Back to the Future and Super Mario Bros., modern games achieve far superior IP immersion through full audio/video assets, animated displays, and deeper code. The hosts argue about whether technological limitations of past eras invalidate those earlier licensed games or simply place them in historical context.

Key Claims

  • Back to the Future (Data East alphanumeric game) lacks true IP immersion compared to modern LCD-era games because it cannot reproduce the actual IP assets, only MIDI approximations and low-res character depictions

    high confidence · Primary host argument throughout episode about alphanumeric-era limitations

  • The biggest technological threshold in pinball history was when ramps began to be integrated into playfield design, marking the transition to modern pinball

    medium confidence · Host statement: 'the biggest threshold was when ramps started to come into play'

  • Super Mario Bros. (Gottlieb DMD game) had better IP integration than Back to the Future because it featured Mario's actual voice actor doing call-outs

    high confidence · Direct comparison made: 'Mario's voice actor did the call-outs for the Super Mario Gottlieb game. Like, it has his voice.'

  • Gameplay mechanics in pinball have remained largely unchanged since the early 1980s (flipper angles, ramp configurations, three-ball play)

    high confidence · Host argument: 'Gameplay hasn't really changed all that much since the early 80s'

  • Modern LCD pinball has created unrealistic licensing expectations that have complicated IP acquisition processes (e.g., James Bond taking two years for clip approvals)

    medium confidence · Host speculation: 'LCD screen has done more damage than good... people are used to doing lunch boxes so they're like I don't understand it'

  • Back to the Future Data East game included Christopher Lloyd imagery on the playfield center, not Michael J. Fox as Marty McFly

    medium confidence · Host statement with IPDB reference: 'they didn't have Michael J. Fox. They did him on the trans light'

  • The video 'Top 10 Greatest Pinball Machines Yet to be Made' erroneously listed Back to the Future, Super Mario Bros., and Toy Story as unmade games, when all three have already been manufactured

    high confidence · Opening complaint about the video content: 'They included Back to the Future. They included Toy Story. Those dopes, all of those have already been made.'

Notable Quotes

  • “What we know as pinball now cannot be compared to what we knew as pinball in the 70s, in the 80s, the 90s. Can it be?”

    Primary host @ Early in episode — Frames the core debate about era-to-era comparison

  • “It's like comparing a bicycle and a motorcycle. They're both cycles. Okay, that's fine. But if you're going to tell me that driving a Back to the Future-themed bicycle is the same – like we shouldn't have a motorcycle experience of Back to the Future because they've already made a bicycle form of it. No.”

    Primary host @ Mid-episode — Key analogy supporting the argument for remaking older IP in modern formats

  • “There is a – I'm not disputing that. There is a very big difference between saying things are more immersive with more advanced technology and saying, and thus, the themes that happened in the past actually didn't happen.”

    Dennis (secondary host) @ Mid-episode — Core counterargument: acknowledges immersion improvements but refutes claims that old games didn't 'really' happen

  • “I see anything prior to DMD, I see as a variant of Pong versus everything else. To me, when it comes to living the world, experiencing the IP.”

    Primary host @ Mid-episode — Establishes DMD as the threshold for modern pinball experience

  • “I do think that the games need to be judged from the time that they come from.”

    Dennis @ Later in episode — Proposes contextual evaluation framework for historical comparison

  • “There nothing that can beat it [LCD screen with proper IP integration]. There nothing.”

    Primary host @ Late episode — Concluding statement on modern pinnacle of IP immersion

  • “You don't get to sit on your little perch and pretend that The theme never happened because you don't like the result.”

    Dennis @ Late episode — Directly challenges the primary host's argument that poorly-executed licensed games 'didn't really happen'

Entities

The Pinball ShowmediaDennispersonGregpersonBack to the Future (Data East)gameSuper Mario Bros. (Gottlieb)gameToy Story 4gameJurassic Park (Elwin)gameSuperman (Atari)gameThe Hulk (Gottlieb)game

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Community split on whether historically licensed games with poor execution should be considered 'made' or 'unmade,' affecting future remake decisions and collector perspectives

    medium · Hosts discuss viewer complaints about video listing 'unmade' games; disagreement about what constitutes a legitimate IP implementation

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Emerging discussion in community about how to judge pinball games historically—contextually within their era vs. against modern standards

    medium · Dennis proposes: 'I do think that the games need to be judged from the time that they come from'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: LCD-era full asset integration has raised IP holder expectations, complicating modern licensing deals with approval timelines and usage restrictions

    medium · Primary host: 'James Bond takes two years to get all the clips approved... whereas dot matrix was at least obfuscated the reality enough that you could do whatever you wanted'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Core pinball mechanics (flippers, ramps, ball physics, three-ball play) remain fundamentally unchanged since early 1980s; evolution is primarily presentation-layer

    high · Host: 'Gameplay hasn't really changed all that much since the early 80s' and 'the basic play hasn't really evolved much'

  • $

    market_signal: Operators value licensed themes for casual appeal and revenue generation despite deeper gameplay; Super Mario Bros. example shows theme and backglass drive location earnings

    medium · Discussion of Super Mario Bros. operator appeal: 'It's because it's got Mario on the back glass. To this day, that game earns.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.083

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. Hey Dennis, aren't you happy these people are here supporting us through Patreon, the official club membership?
0:35
Yes, thank you for your support Alright, you can turn it off now That's it, thanks for $10 We've got a nice discussion piece that we're going to look into today quickly talk about what we're going to be discussing straight down the middle to the video Top 10 Greatest Pinball Machines Yet to be Made a couple of them were very questionable from the viewers and they said, wait a minute straight down the middle included Super Mario. They included Back to the Future. They included Toy Story. Those dopes, all of those have already been made. I'm going to keep watching because I love them, but man, I hate those guys. What's wrong with them? Which leads me to the discussion point of, can you compare older games to newer games? And if so, when? And if not, why? To elaborate further, Dennis and listener is like, my argument was, if you take Back to the future, a Data East game. And the argument you've always made, we don't need a Back to the Future because it's already been made. My argument would then be, well, not really. It's not really been made. What we know as pinball now cannot be compared to what we knew as pinball in the 70s, in the 80s, the 90s. Can it be? I mean, we have different eras. We've got the electromechanical era. Those are dings and basically ding-dings and reel-reels.
1:58
That's what those are. Is that really immersive? IP immersive pinball? That's the argument here. Are you really playing the IP, the world of that IP, with an EM game? Maybe, depending on the title, maybe so. I would argue if it was an EM, you're probably just immersed in the theme more so than any IP because to my recollection, Probably not a lot of intellectual properties licensed for EM games. But nonetheless, early solid states. Those did have some IPs. Still not as hot of a trend as later eras of pinball. But early solid state games. What about alphanumeric games? That's where Back to the Future falls into. Can you really get the immersion of an IP in an alphanumeric game? You might get like the MIDI sound of Back to the Future. Maybe you get a potato face because you couldn't get the rights, but is that really back to the future then? You don't have any assets. DMD mode-based era games? Now we're getting to an argument. If you can tell more of a story with different modes or with lighting or with animated DMD pixel, okay.

  • Toy Story 4 (the pinball version made) is not the same as Toy Story (the original), analogous to how Back to the Future Part III would not fulfill expectations for a Back to the Future game

    medium confidence · Host argument about specificity of IP versions: 'They made Toy Story 4. They haven't made Toy Story.'

    • “I truly think that there is no better gaming immersion for subject matter than where we're at in pinball right now.”

    Primary host @ Near end — Final position statement on modern LCD pinball supremacy for IP integration

    The Simpsonsgame
    Phantom of the Operagame
    Addams Familygame
    James Bond (pinball title)game
    Aliens (Pinball Brothers)game
    Checkpointgame
    Victorygame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (early DMD)game
    Mary Shelley's Wranglergame
    Baywatchgame
    Nordmangame
    Data Eastcompany
    Gottliebcompany
    Sterncompany
  • ?

    technology_signal: LCD screens with full video/audio asset integration from licensed IP represent the threshold of modern IP immersion in pinball; no prior technology achieved comparable integration

    high · Primary host: 'There nothing that can beat it [LCD screen with proper IP integration]' and extended discussion of one-to-one asset replication

  • ?

    content_signal: Pinball YouTube content sometimes prioritizes sensationalism and FOMO-driven viewership over accuracy (listing already-made games as 'yet to be made')

    medium · Opening complaint: 'that has more views than this or that actually hurts my heart... you gotta feed them what they want even if you don't agree with it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Debate reflects broader industry tension: modern pinball prioritizes visual/audio immersion over mechanical innovation, with presentation serving as primary design differentiation

    high · Dennis: 'You are hiding behind the window dressing aspects. Improved sound fidelity and a more realistic interpretation of the IP visually' vs. Primary host's focus on total experience

  • ?

    historical_signal: Licensed themes in pinball began primarily with Gottlieb when Columbia owned them; EM games rarely carried licensed IP; licensing accelerated in solid-state era

    medium · Dennis: 'It really only started with Gottlieb when Columbia owned them, and most of those games were also made in the solid states'

  • ?

    community_signal: Tension between modern collectors/operators seeking new licensed remakes and long-game history veterans who recognize older licensed versions, even if poorly executed

    medium · Entire episode frames this generational/contextual divide in how games are valued and legitimacy is assigned

    • 3:12
    What's the same? What's different? With new age pinball, we have LCD integration, so we get video assets. We've got audio assets. We get call-outs sometimes from the individuals that are part of the intellectual property. Code and rule that help explain the story of the intellectual property. We get moments that are created just like the moments we experience when watching or listening to that particular IP by use of sound, lighting, assets, a collaboration of all of them. We'll start it here, Dennis. Can you compare them? Yes. Okay. We can compare them. You can compare anything you want. All right. Do you think that I have a leg to stand on when I say Back to the Future really hasn't been made as a pinball theme? With all of the context that you've provided, no, you are not correct. Okay. Because the game is – I mean, it was a licensed game, so you can't say that it wasn't made. It falls – your best argument was also the worst argument for the context that you've framed for this exclusive pinball show content, And that was your Toy Story versus Toy Story 4, which was hella pedantic. But, I mean, it's totally pedantic because that game undermined you on every other thing that you're now arguing. It was a full-fledged story, all the assets, all the rest. You're just like, they picked a sequel and didn't include the original, and that's what we're arguing it for. And even Greg was a little like, I know I'm not allowed to disagree with you ever, but I want to, but I won't. But I'll say I see your point. I do see your point on that one, but obviously it had everything else that we're now discussing. You are right that the world experience, the world under glass, the older the game, the further back we go, the worse that is compared to what we are able to have in terms of immersion today. And of the other two remaining, Mario and Back to the Future, Back to the Future is definitely the inferior one, even though they're only two years apart between the two because we're talking alphanumeric versus the DMD era that Super Mario Brothers was. Very true. I mean, so – and this is why, like, obviously things changed a lot. And while we can compare pinball to pinball, the gameplay changed a lot from the EM to the Solid State era. True. Gameplay hasn't really changed all that much since the early 80s. Like the pitch of the games and stuff when they moved from being flat. By the time we were on alphanumeric, like the six and a half degrees and all that, that's like all standard. Pretty standard. A lot of the mechanism standard, I get that argument too. We're still using standard flipper kind of stuff. We're still using the same. The game of pinball, pretty much it's more complex now.
    6:02
    Could you – it's kind of like the – would it be fair to – it to be the comparison of like video games, like comparing an Atari to a PlayStation 5?
    6:13
    Like there's still video games. Right. But I would argue that they're so far removed that they are in essence something totally different. I think that – I get where you're coming from, and that's a good point. It's a question of when does it become more apples and oranges rather than apples to apples. Here's the thing though. For me. All right. Let's say I concede and I say, like, the EM era is your Atari 2600 and the modern era is our PlayStation 5, right?
    6:42
    Well, but at what point, like, can we compare – we can compare a PlayStation 2 to a 5, right? Like the only thing that got better were the graphics It hard to compare because But that where I think it matters I do too So my case in point let start with Back to the Future because it the most extreme example It's not like the old 70s early numeric Star Trek game where it had a Star Trek back glass. Yes, that's what I mean.
    7:16
    That's not Star Trek. And I see where you play the game, and it's just a bunch of bells or chimes, right? Yeah, you play generic rules that went ding-ding. There's a reason why in the EM era, while they weren't doing licensed themes, you saw a lot of poker games. Because the rules are what immersed you, because you actually did play the hands. That makes sense. That was what they tried to do, because of what they could do then. But here are the – so let's take Back to the Future. Back to the Future does include pictures of Christopher Lloyd on the play field. Was that really supposed to be him? At least according to the background summary of the rule sheet that's on IPDB. I thought him as Gary Stern kind of thing. It said they didn't have Michael J. Fox. They did him on the trans light. Okay. But like in the center of the play field, I believe it is supposed to be Christopher Lloyd, whereas it is potato face Marty McFly because it is not to be Michael J. Fox. Oh, yeah. But you also went ahead and had other aspects. So you have a picture. Right. Well, there was the Hey McFly mode where you'd go for the McFly standard targets. You have the clock tower. You have the DMC drop targets. You have some of the sound elements. Right. There was the DeLorean million round where you could shoot the ramp shots to spell DeLorean out. So while obviously things have come a long way since when that game came out, when you look at the play field, it is trying to put you in the world of Hill Valley.
    8:42
    Oh. It is not like Star Trek 79. No. The clock tower, you've got the two Hill Valley signs on the left and the right conveying all sorts of aspects. You've got Doc on the right sling and the dog on the left. I can't remember the dog's name because no one cares. I like that you're going through the pictures. Yeah, I'm looking because I do my background. But when you get done playing that game, you say to yourself, boy, man, I was really – I felt like I was in that movie. I felt like I was really part of the tasks in that film. Whenever they flew through and showed the tire tracks on, I felt the heat from that. I felt like they stopped me and said, it is essential that you complete this mode or you're not going to get back to the future. Like, no. You felt like you play a pinball machine.
    9:40
    That's it. A generic pinball machine. I mean, I get it, but Elwynn's Jurassic Park, you ain't playing the movie.
    9:49
    This is some crap about rescuing dinosaurs, which that movie is not about. What an interesting. and you hear other than Nedry who's barely used in it last I played it it's just the world nothing is really I would argue that with Jurassic Park dinosaurs or dinosaurs there's not one T-Rex you're like that's a Jurassic Park T-Rex versus a generic T-Rex so that's hard to compare whenever a DeLorean is a DeLorean Michael J. Fox is Michael J. Fox and you still get the John Williams soundtrack in its actual use. It's not midi'd where it's dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun. Like, no. That is Pinball Machine. That is not the true... I just... I think Pinball in 2024, even, let's say, anything from 20... LCD. LCD-era pinball has made such a substantial leap when it comes to IP integration due to full use of audio components from the actual piece of IP and video components that we're not trying to replicate them as dots or replicate them as a tune that sounds like. They are exactly it. So it immerses you more, and then with the code, the tasks are so much different. It's like to me comparing a bicycle and a motorcycle. They're both cycles. Okay, that's fine. But if you're going to tell me that driving a Back to the Future-themed bicycle is the same – like we shouldn't have a motorcycle experience of Back to the Future because they've already made a bicycle form of it. No. There's something different to experience in a motorcycle than there is in a bicycle.
    11:42
    Absolutely. There is a – I'm not disputing that. There is a very big difference between saying things are more immersive with more advanced technology and saying, and thus, the themes that happened in the past actually didn't happen.
    11:59
    I'm saying it's so poorly done that we cannot agree that that is what it is. Your Super Mario example was even worse. A DMD-era game where you go around destroying seven castles to save the princess? That is the entire fucking plot to the game. expertly conveyed by Gottlieb.
    12:20
    I just think that there's somewhere in between the LCD integration where the gaming has changed on pinball. It has changed. The gaming has not. I think so. You are hiding behind the window dressing aspects. Improved sound fidelity and a more realistic interpretation of the IP visually. I'm not saying one's better than the other. The gameplay, though, hasn't really changed that much. And so it's still just pinball. That the rules are deeper and no one can get to that depth is irrelevant.
    12:49
    When I play Mario on the SNES, I enjoy it more than if I were to play it on the new Wii U or whatever the hell it is, Switch or whatever it is. So I'm not saying the gameplay is better. I'm saying it's significantly different. In gaming, I don't think I can make that argument. Most of the tech by the time of Back to the Future, there's not been a lot of innovation on the on-playfield aspects. No, but what I see, honestly, Dennis, I see anything prior to DMD, I see as a variant of Pong versus everything else. To me, when it comes to living the world, experiencing the IP. Okay. I get it. It's Pong. Yes, for me, for pinball, to me, the biggest threshold was when ramps started to come into play. And at that point I think we safely moved enough into modern pinball because the rules were finally having some degree of sophistication at that point as well They much deeper It takes longer to get through a game and see all of the things now But they were able to, I mean, you have Mario's, Mario's voice actor did the call-outs for the Super Mario Gottlieb game. Like, it has his voice. That speaker technology is a little bit better now, is kind of moot. and you can you can uh animate on dots better than you can real life figures like on back to the future okay that that one's tougher for me that one's tougher i may i may concede to that one that even if it's done so piss poorly that we still can't ignore it i i do think that the games need to be judged from the time that they come from. So that. Sure. And even at that, even at that, those were two of the worst representations of what pinball was, even at those times. And I do think it is. Well, I disagree in this one specific example because I don't care about the theme. I do understand your argument saying that Back to the Future was done so long ago or and or in this case, in your case, and and done so poorly that it should be done in the modern era. just like I think it makes perfect sense to do a Super Mario Bros. game in the modern era. Yes. But I could never bring myself to pretend like the license never actually got done when it so clearly did. And not just in that, I think fair again, pointing back to the kind of beat time-esque Beatles theme of the EM era. They tried to do Back to the Future. It was a licensed Back to the Future. it is factually incorrect to say that it didn't happen. They really did try to make it be back to the future. That the game is shit is irrelevant.
    15:39
    It may be cause to say we should have another one because that left a bad taste in people's mouth. But it is not fair to say thus it didn't happen. Feels like they use the license logo. I'm getting they did more than that. I mean, the DeLorean, they get to say it. They get to have the words. That's more than probably the new one. well well what about the hulk take the hulk is that really a hulk game do you mean the old gottlieb system one yep i mean yeah it had the incredible hulk on it just like superman atari superman's got superman on it but when you play it you're not going to feel like you're in the world exactly rocky right right right was that really i understand that they did not those were too old to capture world under glass world under glass was not the only purpose back then of the theme tie-ins were that it would attract people to drop the quarters in because of the back glass. That was the purpose. And I, and I feel like they did the same with back to the future. Back to the future tried to do much more, much more. Yes. The whole play. I mean, if you look at, I know Superman a little bit better than Hulk. I've played both, but like other than a few random pictures of people on the play field, all the rest of it, like, I mean, Superman lets you spell Superman, but back to the future, They used the same ramp integrations they did on every other fucking day. They did on Simpsons. They did on fucking Phantom of the Opera. They did on all of them. Yeah, but they've got like little custom signs and a sculpt. They have a sculpt. They have the clock tower sculpt toy in the back. That's way more than Hulk or Superman would ever get. They would just get plastics that had the characters on it, and that's it. This, the whole play. I also remember in the older EM-esque early solid state era, like Hulk, Superman, And most of the play field is still just labeling like the scoring and the points. It's really just a lot of barren wood with occasional characters splattered in. Back to the Future is top down, full on painted character scenes.
    17:36
    Not a bare wood spot to be seen until the outlaying or excuse me, until the to the drain itself. Yeah, you're making you're making great points. I'm just saying you're making good points. It is of its era. We have to judge it in that context. But I mean, they even have like of its era. It sucked. They even have like little – It's always sucked. I can't do that. Super Mario has always sucked. It is – fucking Stargate is better than that. Super Mario Brothers, if I was an operator – I think Greg brought this up. You want a Super Mario Brothers right next to your Addams Family to earn on or out. It's not because of gameplay. No. It's because it's got Mario on the back glass. To this day, that game earns. And to casual people, it's perfectly entertaining. And it feels like you're in the world of Mario. That one was a really bad example of yours because Mario's talking to you in the game and stuff. I know. It's been so long since I played Back to the Future. I can't really talk about it. It's obviously less immersive. It just sucks. It's like Simpsons. At least in Simpsons, I think maybe it's easier. Yeah. It makes sense that cartoons and animation were more easily replicated with the alphanumeric stuff or the DMD stuff because you could animate that kind of stuff. it was in a sense the DMD is in a sense animation in and of itself but don't forget Back to the Future for its multiball tried to convey the thunderstorm hitting Hill Valley for the time travel I mean they did what they could you just don't like what they did what they could is really that see that's where I get hung up they did not do what they could you think that's the Jurassic Park thing sometimes they worried about if they could but what they should they should never if you can't get that game replicated in a sense that you're really no game suck that was what people were willing to accept as acceptable theme integration in that era you are so divorced from that era you are you were such a modern baby you just don't you just don't understand the past they're so inferior in every way and i'm not disputing that what i'm saying is you don't get to uh sit on your little perch and pretend that The theme never happened because you don't like the result. And with 80% of that result being driven by that's how all pinball was back then is a really goofy reason. You know what? An actual video perch is much more sturdy than an alphanumeric perch. What are you going to use? Three segments and a top for your perch? In some way, I think that the LCD screen has done more damage than good to this hobby because of the ridiculous expectations. that's more the argument that i'm setting up i want to see the entire movie on the screen and the complications that that licensing has wrought on and this is where we get all this stuff now where it's so chaotic and everything james bond takes two years to get all the clips approved and the people are used to doing lunch boxes so they're like i don't understand it you can only display movie posters and you just get all this whereas dot matrix i get it matrix at least was obfuscated the reality enough that you could do whatever you wanted It makes it tougher but when it done correctly there nothing that can beat it There nothing It all goes back to the... You know what? I will concede to the Super Mario thing.
    20:58
    And Toy Story. And your Toy Story argument was pedantic and stupid. Toy Story is just fact. They haven't made Toy Story. They made Toy Story 4. They haven't made Toy Story. It'd be like if they made... Highway are now Pinball Brothers had just done Aliens, and you're like, they haven't done Alien. Absolutely. That's a fact. Not close enough, bro. It's not close enough. Close enough, bro. It's like they did Pack to the Future 3, and you're like, but we've already got it back to the future. What the fuck? We do. No, we have not.
    21:27
    And it's in the wild. And it's in the glass. No, no, no. We don't accept that. No, no, no. But I think the argument goes to I truly think that there is no better gaming immersion for subject matter than where we're at in pinball right now. And so much so that I don't – but I don't think you can compare them. I can do what I want. When it comes to – I'm not subject to your feeble whims. I just don't – I don't think it's – you're not comparing the same things. Well, the technology has evolved. But people compare video games of different eras all the time. The level of comparison, the level of judgment that we have varies a lot. No. My argument is the differences between an SE and a PlayStation 5 is not significant as the differentiation between an EM and what we got now. It is other universes apart.
    22:24
    Not even close. One of them is ding, ding, a mechanical bell. All of the examples, though, from your straight-down-the-middle video are all solid-state games. So going back to the EM era at this point, I get where you're doing it for this purpose for our discussion, but it's kind of moot because there's next to no EMS that had licensed themes, period. It was barely done. It really only started with Gottlieb when Columbia owned them, and most of those games were also made in the solid states. So it's just – Yeah, it was a weird – And so very few had the ding-dings.
    22:56
    Sorry, the – Sorry, that was my early solid state sound. Oh. Or, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Don't you feel like you're immersed in the Hulk? That wasn't the immersion, wasn't the gall then. Whoa. Like, you listen to Steve Ritchie. That's being so far different that they can't be compared. I agree. There we go. But we don't say that Hulk never had a pinball machine.
    23:29
    You do because you lie. To get the discussion going sometimes. You get it on three. Three out of ten of your game. Three out of ten. And I saw those comments, Zach, and other people were already annoyed where you were taking a whole bunch of dream themes that are already known to be in production by other companies. That's right. Like Rocky. it was bad and that has more views than this or that actually hurts my heart see that's you know what you gotta feed them what they want even if you don't agree with it i get it and i only blame you for doing it either i just it makes me so sad and that's why i didn't do nordman this episode i was too upset i don't blame you i'm i'm glad we get the real nordman instead of the fucking alphanumeric Nordman. He'd be coming across that DMD display like Checkpoint or something.
    24:24
    Checkpoint at least was kind of DMD. You're saying that because you're making fun of all the games I own. Quasi-DMD. Remember Checkpoint? Wasn't that like the first game? Oh, actually, I was thinking Victory. Yeah, no, Checkpoint was the first DMD, but it was that baby DMD? Yeah, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle DMD. Yeah, they did a couple like that. And then they were like, oh, I guess we have to go to the right. And then Sega was like, we've got to have the fatty one. Let's do Mary Shelley's Wrangler's Side with a fatty version and Baywatch. Oh, my God. It's just pinball has come so far. Now we're actually using one-to-one assets from the properties. It's just a game changer. Literally a game changer. No, not literally. That's my conclusion. Because the gameplay parts are actually still pretty much the same as they've been since the late 80s.
    25:11
    Ramps, same angle, three-ball play. but if you experience them different do they not change your experience burns out in a forest no it's not it's not totally identical and and and yeah the experience has depending on the game has has changed to some degree but a lot of the stuff that you're pointing at is really the frivolity that adds to the world under glass but isn't about the play this is why some people will say as much as i love uh call of duty 8 or whatever they're up to now some people be like Modern Warfare 1, which is three generations ago, still gameplay-wise holds up, even though the graphics are worse, the sound is worse, less enemies on the screen. The technology has advanced the game, but the basic play hasn't really evolved much. See, okay, that's fine, but once we get to where VR has done so well, then I would probably make the argument that those can't be compared anymore either. VR is never getting to that point. oh it absolutely will it's a gimmick technology oh my and every time early adopters try and take surrounding your environment in a gaming world is a gimmick because that is not all they've tried to ramp up that would be like saying that the goal of video games is to make everything a first person shooter it is a stylistic choice it will not displace other video games it will always be niche because it's got its own burdens with motion sickness and everything else because of the way the technology works. It's never going to displace conventional two-dimensional gaming. Just like 3D never displaced 2D for movies. Because the technology's not there yet. The technology has been there at least since Avatar. It doesn't matter. It is not done in the way that it's not like VR. VR will always have that weakness.
    26:58
    Always. I'll be dead by the time you can prove me wrong. Always. Exactly. I might agree on that. We will be dead by the time. By that point, pinball will be gone, too. So who cares? Don't you dare. Because people are like, why are we playing with this baby's toy with the steel ball rolling around? One of my grandkids better run this business. Into the ground? Yeah, I was going to say, a couple more haggises and my house is going to be gone too.
    27:26
    All right. I guess that's it. Okay. You all can really turn it off now. We're done now. Turn off your DMD. At least the game's booted fastback. Holy crap. to go and make myself a drink while these things start up now.