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The Pinball Show Ep 4: RumpelstiltsDen & His Birthday Apple Pie

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 48m·analyzed·Mar 3, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Jersey Jack moves manufacturing to Illinois; hosts debate implications for pricing and production.

Summary

Episode 4 of The Pinball Show features Ken Cromwell, Dennis Creasel, and Zach Menne in a split-format discussion covering industry news from Spooky, American Pinball, Stern, and Jersey Jack Pinball. Major story: Jersey Jack Pinball is relocating its manufacturing operations from New Jersey to Illinois to consolidate with its design team and improve production efficiency. The hosts discuss implications for pricing, production capacity, and game announcements.

Key Claims

  • Jersey Jack Pinball is relocating manufacturing from Lakewood, New Jersey to Elk Grove Village, Illinois

    high confidence · Official press release from February 26, 2020, read aloud by hosts; multiple correspondents confirm

  • The move aims to create 50+ new jobs and consolidate design/engineering with manufacturing operations

    high confidence · Official Jersey Jack press release quoted directly

  • Black Knight Interactive Chopper topper has conflicting messaging from Stern about availability despite video promotion

    high confidence · Craig Bobby, Stern correspondent, reports Stern posted video followed by distributor call but stock remains limited

  • Spooky is taking three machines to Texas Pinball Festival and MGC with air freight booked

    high confidence · Damien from Haggis/Spooky interviewed by TPN correspondent

  • American Pinball's third game should be ready for Texas Pinball Festival in a few weeks

    high confidence · Kaz from American Pinball update segment

  • Willy Wonka had more pre-orders than any other title Ken (distributor) has sold, but also the most cancellations

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell speaking from distributor experience at Flippin' Out Pinball

  • JJP may have begun recruiting employees from nearby manufacturers in the Chicago area

    medium confidence · Reference to Pinside forum post by allegedly disgruntled American Pinball employee; hosts debate legitimacy

  • Shipping costs for pinball machines from New Jersey to California can exceed $500

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell's distributor perspective

Notable Quotes

  • “I think the bigger issue has been the brain trust being in Chicago... that's been a problem for them, hasn't it? When all their designers are in Chicago and they're doing their building.”

    Dennis Creasel @ approx. 50:00 — Articulates core issue JJP faced with bifurcated operations; validates rationale for consolidation

  • “I always thought it was odd that they had two bases of operation originally... the majority ownership or partial ownership comes from an individual who resides and operates out of Florida.”

    Dennis Creasel @ approx. 48:00 — Notes structural inefficiency of JJP's original dual-location model and investor geography

  • “They've got two options now... Option one is business as usual... or they double down and say we're going to open up two or three lines and do something a little bit bigger.”

    Ken Cromwell @ approx. 65:00 — Identifies strategic divergence point for JJP: maintain status quo vs. aggressive growth post-relocation

  • “I would guess that if the rumor is true that Eric Menier's on the next title from Jersey Jack Pinball, that game has probably been done if not in the finalization stages.”

    Dennis Creasel @ approx. 62:00 — Speculates on Eric Menier involvement in next JJP game; suggests design completion status

  • “This pre-order was huge. Everybody had to have a Willy Wonka. But this is also a title where I had the most people drop out than anything else that we had sold.”

    Ken Cromwell @ approx. 58:00 — Reveals unusual disconnect between Willy Wonka pre-order demand and cancellation rate

  • “I opine on [competitive pinball] from a position of ignorance... I am only fair.”

    Dennis Creasel @ approx. 15:00 — Self-deprecating acknowledgment of limited competitive pinball expertise

  • “I don't think where the investors reside in terms of Florida or anywhere else, I don't think they need to be close... that can be done via a conference call, Zoom meeting.”

    Zach Menne — Challenges assumption that investor proximity to manufacturing matters in modern remote-capable business

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyKen CromwellpersonDennis CreaselpersonZach MennepersonJack GuarneripersonStern PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyAmerican PinballcompanyChicago Gaming Companycompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball relocating manufacturing to Illinois consolidating operations previously split between New Jersey and Chicago

    high · Official press release from February 26, 2020; move to Elk Grove Village near Stern, American Pinball, and Chicago Gaming; stated rationale: consolidation, efficiency, production capacity, cost savings

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival confirmed as venue for Spooky and American Pinball to showcase games; air freight logistics being managed

    high · Damien: 'we're in a controlled mad panic... air freight booked for those three machines... the day before we jump on a plane'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Jersey Jack's relocation to Illinois places it within 1 hour drive of Stern, American Pinball, and Chicago Gaming, creating cluster of competing manufacturers competing for talent

    high · Ken Rudberg press release commentary: 'put JJP within an hour's drive of not only Stern Pinball, but Chicago Gaming Company and American Pinball as well'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Eric Menier rumored to be designer on next Jersey Jack Pinball game; game likely in finalization or completed stage

    medium · Dennis: 'if the rumor is true that Eric Menier's on the next title from Jersey Jack Pinball that game has probably been done if not in the finalization stages'

  • $

    market_signal: Willy Wonka pre-orders exceeded all other titles but also had highest cancellation rate, signaling disconnect between initial demand and follow-through

    high · Ken: 'I received more pre-orders for Willy Wonka than any title... but this is also a title where I had the most people drop out'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.326

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Hey, what's going on Pinball Land? Welcome to episode number four of the Pinball Show. Along with Dennis Creasel and Zach Menne, I am Ken Cromwell. We've got a little bit different of a format today, and we're going to explain that in a second. But let's check in with both of these guys before we kick this show off. Zach, what's going on, man? How are you? Oh, I'm doing wonderful. I'm doing fine. and got through the great pizza debacle of 2020. So I made it through there with my pepperoni still attached. So that's always a good thing. And I don't know. I was at your house the other night. It felt like the other night, slept in bed. Not your bed, but I slept in a bed. I was awoken by Kiki the cat giving me kisses about 2 in the morning. Kiki the cat. Love Kiki. She likes to seduce the pinball gentlemen that sleep overnight. I felt like an infant and she was taking my breath away or something.
1:22
Yeah, she probably does. Like an urban myth or something. I don't know that it's that much of a myth. I wake up many mornings out of breath with a cat hovering over my chest. It's a little bit freaky, but it is what it is. What have you been up to, Chromie? Same thing, just kind of recovering from the weekend. It was a little bit sad. It was one of the – whenever I see you at St. Charles, it's like a mixed bag for me because it's always good to hang out. It's good to see you. It's good to jump on a stream or microphones or whatever it is or just kind of hang out, right? But usually when you're coming, it's because you're taking something away. And you took three games out of the studio, which were – you took away The Beatles, which has become one of my favorite games. It's such a fun shooter. You took out Stranger Things Pro, which crushes me like my dream theme leaves. And then the Batman 66 that was here that never really got going. Yeah, we've got to get that fixed. I know. But you did drop off a Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. so we're going to have fun getting back on that. The display's not working? The display is down temporarily, but I'm sure we'll figure that out. I might have a bad cable, so I'm going to swap that out. Houdini, thank you, American Pinball. They invited us out to pick up a Houdini, and that's on loan here, so we can stream that for a couple weeks. And there's beta code on Houdini. I don't have enough time on that game to realize what will make it beta, but for those of you that are Houdini fans, we will be streaming that over the next couple weeks, I think. But what's going on with Dennis Creasel? Dennis, how are you feeling, buddy? I feel like I'm the third topping you were always supposed to have.
@ approx. 49:00
Damien
person
Eric Menierperson
Brian Eddyperson
Keith Elwinperson
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factorygame
Rick and Mortygame
Black Knight Sword of Rage / Interactive Choppergame
Stranger Thingsgame
Elviragame
Houdinigame
  • ?

    personnel_signal: JJP may be recruiting employees from nearby Chicago-area manufacturers (American Pinball, Stern) post-relocation

    medium · Pinside forum report of American Pinball employee claiming JJP already started poaching; hosts debate direct vs. indirect recruitment

  • $

    market_signal: Hosts debate whether consolidation will lead to price reductions; Ken speculates possible operator-friendly pricing tier but expects status quo or growth instead

    medium · Ken: 'I would say absolutely not [to price dips]... I think the owners... they've got two options... Option one is business as usual... or they double down'

  • ?

    announcement: American Pinball's third game expected to debut at Texas Pinball Festival within weeks; Oktoberfest code update imminent

    high · Kaz (American Pinball correspondent): 'Should be ready for TPF in just a few weeks... code update for Oktoberfest should be available very soon'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Potential production delays for next Jersey Jack game due to manufacturing line relocation and setup at new facility

    medium · Dennis: 'it would delay production... setting up an entire line at a new facility I don't think it is not going to delay this at all'

  • ?

    product_concern: Black Knight Interactive Chopper topper availability contradicted by mixed Stern messaging; stock shortages at distributors and official store despite promotional video

    high · Craig Bobby: 'conflicting messages from Stern this week... Stern posted... followed the next day by... yet despite those messages... most Stern distributors and even Stern's own online web store has yet to receive any meaningful stock'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Shipping costs from New Jersey to California can exceed $500, representing significant distributor burden

    medium · Ken: 'if I were to ship a game from New Jersey all the way to California... these things are costing $500 just to ship over there, if not a little bit more'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Spooky releasing YouTube adjustment tutorials for Rick and Morty addressing left loop/spinner and wire form launch ramp issues post-production

    medium · TPN correspondent: 'videos released on YouTube on the Spooky YouTube page talking about adjustments to Rick and Morty... wire form launch ramp to make sure the ball launches into the correct position'

    • 2:50
    Oh, man, I got hit up a little bit last week for the great pizza debacle of 2020. It wasn't a bad analogy. Maybe it did kind of come across like you aren't the best client to be ordering pizzas, though. Would you have been a little frustrated? I mean, I would have thought it had gone under one of those kind of funny moment things. Because we love to talk about food here on TPN I'll give you one that happened to me Way back when I was People are going to love this When I lived in New York I went to McDonald's I think it was my birthday And I was there for school So I didn't have any cake or anything Nothing like birthday at Mickey D's Well I was going to get an apple pie How old were you at this time? 20 maybe So I walk into the McDonald's Because it was on the route I lived off campus So I was walking from the university, and I stopped at the McDonald's, and I said, I would like to get a McDonald's apple pie. And they said, oh, well, we have a sale for – you could get two for a dollar. And I said, no, thank you. I only would like one apple pie. And they said, well, it would be 94 cents if you were to buy one apple pie. And I said, I want one apple pie. And then they sold me the apple pie for 94 cents, and that's what I did. I didn't draw it out. I was like, I don't care if it's a terrible deal. Oh, I see what you're doing. Okay, I got you. Just give me what I want.
    4:18
    There's no moral there. I'm just telling you that's what happened. Well, what if the apple pie, the two of them cost less than one? They say, hey, look, two is 50 cents, but one is a dollar. Yep. And you wouldn't have been like, guys, why are you wasting that apple pie? I just want one. Well, I would have thought, why are they wasting the apple pie when I would leave? but I wouldn't have. I was there for one apple pie. So the scenario for me was probably a little different because you may have called. Well, no, you indicated you called and then asked for the specials. See, I went in already knowing what I wanted. If it was a special or not a special, it was going to happen. The birthday apple pie. It was one apple pie. That's what I wanted. Did you put a little candle on there? No, I did not. I burned my little, my hovel. I called my little studio apartment the hovel. The hovel. I don't get the reference. It was – well, because it was very – Like a triple thing? No, a hovel, like a run-down hole in the ground. No. It was not a great place. It was more like a dank, musty, terrible – it was my worst apartment I ever lived in. Oh, man. Did you have a cat? No. I hate cats.
    5:25
    So what else have you been up to, man? Nothing. I've been busy with work. I should have another pinball article coming out. I didn't stream this last week because I used that day to write my pinball article up that I've been telling myself I was going to get done with before the end of February. And then I realized it was the end of February, and I still hadn't written it. It's a lot of work, those pinball articles. Well, this one took a lot of research. So that was what – the writing of the article was not actually that bad, but it just took a long time. It will be on competitive pinball. And I just – I had over 700 games that were submitted, and I had to codify those, add in who their manufacturers were. I didn't know what all I was going to analyze, so I put in their years, and I eventually – some of that stuff didn't even make the – it's kind of funny. You put in hours and hours of research work, and then you're like, okay, well, I got three graphs out of it, and we'll now spend 30 minutes writing up these results. Did you flex your polynomial muscles on that order? No polynomials. It's not that sort of article. Oh, I see. It's not about – we're not doing trends over time with it. So speaking of competitive pinball, did you try to get a Pemberg ticket? No, I did not. Oh, rats. I heard they sold out in two seconds, so I'm glad I didn't – They sold out in two tickets. Well, I'm glad I don't burden myself with that sort – I'm not really into cattle call stuff like that, like how Rick and Morty sold and how – I just don't like that stuff. Oh, that's shocking. You seem like the guy that waits outside of the Toys R Us right before the new Star Wars figurine. What Toys R Us? I thought they were all dead. Defunct. Or did they come back? I don't know.
    7:05
    Remember KB Toys? Nope. I mean, I remember the name, but I don't think I... KB Toys in the mall. Overpriced stuff. They always had the chirping dogs out front.
    7:14
    And they did little flips and stuff. Yeah, listeners out there remember that. So yeah, competitive pinball. You didn't pursue the pinbird ticket. I did. and you're probably saddened by the fact that I'm now on the wait list. No, that's fine. Lots of people are on the wait list. You know, somebody said, well, what number on the wait list are you? And I don't remember receiving a number. How does that work?
    7:39
    Internally, I'm sure they have a number for you. I hope. Maybe I missed out on the wait list. But do you really care? I do. Why? Because I'd like to go. You've never played even in a local tournament. So go big or go home, right? If you're not first, you're last. Okay, so you were planning to win it. Interesting. The win was going to be making it there and playing the entirety of the tournament, yeah. It's not 24 hours at the Sanctum. It's not exactly a grueling tournament. Well, you know, it's still not an easy feat to get there and, you know, be freshened up and standing that whole time. There are only things like airlines that could fly you there. Talking to all the fans of pinball market trends, signing autographs. Look, it's a thing. I think it would be really interesting for you to be there because I have a different scenario in mind. I think that most of that audience will – See if people throw tomatoes at me? No, but I do think they'll basically be hostile.
    8:36
    Toward me? Because of what you have done to that side of the hobby. What? What have I done to that side of the hobby, Dennis Creasel? I've done nothing but love. Opine on it from a position of ignorance.
    8:46
    That may be fair. I am only fair. Hey, I got some new games this week. What are you selling through Flippin' Out Pinball? So for trade-in, I got an Iron Maiden. Yeah, that's all I need right now. More shit on that. Iron Maiden Premium. Okay. I don't know if I've ever played the Premium. I had never owned a Premium or LE, so I'm having fun with that, selfishly. And then I picked up a Tales of the Arabian Nights, because that is the next restoration that I want to have done. A terrible game for competitive play. Nice. For competitive play. And, in fact, it gets a mention in my article. Oh, very nice. What is it in particular that Toten falls short on? I think the two biggest things is skilled players can battle the genie for far too long, and there's a scoring exploit involving harem multiball. Gotcha. Yeah, it's a simple game, even in the home setting. But it's just so beautiful. It's so much fun to play. I like to bolt down to the floor games that are just pretty and that are fun to play. See, to me, it would, in terms of at least the former, that's ideal stuff for like tilt cycle, getting a play field and mounting it on your wall. I don't see the point in owning. I'd rather own players to play rather than care so much about what their art looks like. But I know other people have different takes. Just picture this. A Toten sitting in your game room. Lights reflecting off of all of that brass coating. Brand new play field that looks so silky smooth. brand new plastic ramps. And then picture that line of people, Zach, going and just hitting lamp all day. Oh, I can see it now. Spin that lamp, baby. Why don't we jump into some news?
    10:27
    One day I just hope you get rid of that out of your mind. I didn't do it during Pinball Market Trends. Because we're not there yet. Oh, are we doing that segment?
    10:39
    It's not dead, Dennis. I know. You know what, though? Oh, you know what I noticed? I noticed I think Jeff Patterson deleted that product from silverballswag.com. Oh, he told me that he did. Oh. Because he acknowledges that you're the mastermind behind the segment, and he didn't want to come across like he was trying to profit off of it now that it wasn't Wilbur with the Twit Podcast, and that the shirts are now truly limited.
    11:08
    Maybe we do a vault. No, vault. Oh, so we'll be charging even more for the shirts now because every vault is more expensive than the original. Well, guys, I didn't know anything about that. I apologize. It's sorry to hear about the T-shirt. This episode in particular is going to be a little bit different format-wise. You heard me talk about that when we kicked it off. Myself, Dennis, and Zach all had conflicting schedules, so the three of us weren't able to sit down and record together. That being said, all three of us wanted to get in on the episode for episode four, So you're going to hear some of us jump on and off in random times. And through the magic of editing, it'll sound as if we somewhat have put together a show. A lot of pressure there. So that's up to you, Zach, the editing master. Before we get into the show, let's send it out to the TPN News correspondents. Sound good? Ooh, goody. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    12:03
    We're back on the Pinball Show on the Pinball Network with this week's Talking Coprolalia is the medical term. If anyone wants to look that up, don't make me spell it, but it's Talking Coprolalia. All about spooky and haggis. News out of spooky first. A couple of videos have been released on YouTube, on the Spooky YouTube page, talking about adjustments to your Rick and Morty, including the infamous left loop shot through the spinner, which Scott Denisey describes as his heartache shot. and the wire form launch ramp to make sure the ball launches into the correct position and comes down to your right flipper. Moving machines tends to adjust things itself, and these two adjustments are easily done once the game is in the home to have it flying correctly. Have a look at the Spooky YouTube page for these videos. In regard to Haggis, I got to have a chat with Damien about his upcoming visit to Texas Pinball Festival and MGC. How's the preparation going for the Texas Pinball Festival and how are you going to get the games over there? Yes, we're in a controlled mad panic if there is such a thing and we currently have air freight booked for those three machines to fly out probably the day before we jump on a plane ourselves which is about a week out from the actual expo I know the three Texas games are sold but is there any extra games going over? We have one that we are taking to MGC with us and at this stage that potentially will be for sale there as well on the day. I also asked Damien about replacement parts. With the game being built in Australia, I wondered whether it would be an issue if there were breakages for owners in the US. For the most part, in respect to coils and armatures and all those sort of consumable components of mechs, they're all standard. So that's it for this week's Spooky Haggis Industry Talk and we'll have more to hear from Damien in upcoming episodes, especially as Texas gets closer, including an upcoming Texas show special. Catch you all next week. Hey, this is Kaz with a quick American Pinball update. I talked with the guys from American Pinball this past week as work continues on game number three. Should be ready for TPF in just a few weeks. Also, code update for Oktoberfest should be available very soon. and don't forget to call your distributor to get the modified coil stop for the upper right flipper that's going to help you hit that beer barrel ramp shot also check out the flipping out pinball stream they streamed houdini this past week on friday night it was ken zach and steve so check that out if you haven't seen it for american pinball this is brian cosner the black knight wants your money brian eddie walks the line and more code updates hey everyone craig here again the pinball show's Stern News correspondent. While conflicting messages from Stern this week, causing some customer confusion, as Stern posted an online video showing the elusive, yet much sought after, Black Knight Interactive Chopper in action, followed the next day by another message encouraging people to call their local distributors to order. Yes! Yet despite those messages suggesting that the wait is almost over, most Stern distributors and even Stern's own online web store has yet to receive any meaningful stock and really not much additional information about when they might actually have units to sell. Hmm. Zach, please help us make sense of this madness. With a suggested retail price of approximately $449 US plus taxes and shipping, this is still one topper that is a must-have item for owners looking to spice things up on their Black Knight pins. Now in other news, Stern recently posted a new one-minute video of designer Brian Eddy walking the production line at the Stern factory, observing his Stranger Things pin at various stages of production. The video is a fascinating reminder of just how massive Stern is, and just how many of these machines are coming out of production each and every day, and I would highly recommend spending a quick minute checking this video out. And don't put away those USB sticks just yet! We have new code again, hot off the internet, this time for both Elvira v. .92 and Black Knight Sword of Rage v. 1.01. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    16:33
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Well, the big news this week is that Jersey Jack Pinball is moving to Illinois. Jack is uniting the manufacturing side of the business with the design and engineering team that is currently in Elk Grove Village, Illinois. And it will allow Jersey Jack Pinball to, quote, remain competitive and efficient in the market. Jack says that the main goal is to get everyone under the same roof and to shorten up the development time. They are hoping to be able to bring 50 or so jobs to the area. And they really hope to be able to increase their production capacity there. Interestingly, this will put Jersey Jack Pinball within an hour's drive of not only Stern Pinball, but Chicago Gaming Company and American Pinball as well. The move will put JJP closer to skilled labor, parts suppliers, and design talent, while at the same time decreasing shipping costs. There is also the potential for tax savings, as New Jersey has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the country. The stated reason for the move is to be able to ramp up production capacity, which is surely a good sign for Jersey Jack Pinball in 2020 and going forward. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack Update.
    17:47
    This past week, Jersey Jack Pinball made a press release, February 26, 2020, from PRN Newswire. Did you see this? I did. I'm going to read it out loud. Headline, Jersey Jack Pinball announces the relocation of its manufacturing operations to Elk Grove Village, Illinois. Jersey Jack Pinball, JJP, creator of premium pinball machines, will relocate its manufacturing operations from Lakewood, New Jersey, to Elk Grove Village, Illinois, bringing fabrication into greater synergy with the design and engineering teams currently based in Bensonville, Illinois, where JJP anticipates creating 50 or more new jobs. Quote from Jack Guarneri here, First and foremost, I'd like to thank all the employees in Lakewood for their hard work and dedication to Jersey Jack Pinball and the wider pinball industry. Their contributions are greatly appreciated. He goes on to say this move will allow JJP to remain competitive and efficient in the market. We look forward to creating an exciting collaborative workplace in Illinois where we can continue to be pioneers of pinball design, building great games for many years to come. End quote. Thoughts? I always thought it was odd that they had two bases of operation originally. And I do believe maybe the majority ownership or partial ownership comes from an individual who resides and operates out of Florida. I don't think where the investors reside in terms of Florida or anywhere else, I don't think they need to be close. So I don't think that's a huge factor. What if the investor is making a lot of big decisions? That can be done via a conference call. I have a Zoom meeting. No, it is. It's fine. I don't know how silent they are or not, but I don't think the high-level decisions that they need require them to be at a specific facility. Or maybe they just fly there and you can get a cheap flight to Chicago, so that's fine. I think the bigger issue has been the brain trust being in Chicago. And if Jersey Jack operates in a – well, clearly they haven't been. But if that was to be along the lines of, say, Stern and Keith Elwin, for example, talking about going down and looking and what's going on and answering questions on the line, that's been a problem for them, hasn't it? When all their designers are in Chicago and they're doing their building, that's where I think the bigger issue is. Not to mention economies of scale and just having that efficiency at being at one facility. It's a really good point, actually, because we know that Eric Menier on Pirates of the Caribbean, whenever that was going on the line, they had to fly him out there before they commenced the manufacturing of that particular title. And I know that whenever issues were coming up, he had to go back out there. And, yeah, so I could see that being much more efficient doing that locally there. But Elk Grove Village, how about that? We know that Stern Pinball resides at Elk Grove Village. Well, you've got a lot of trained labor in the area that you could try and poach. Oh, that's a good point. Now, we do know that I was looking on Pinside, and there was a former American pinball employee that did say that JJP has already started poaching employees from nearby manufacturers. Do you make that as a disgruntled employee? Do you think that there is some legitimacy to that, both and either?
    21:02
    No, I think there's probably some legitimacy. Whether or not it's truly a poach, like in the sense that if JJP is going directly to known employees and trying to lure them away, or it may actually be a little more indirect than that. Like, hey, we're looking for experienced pinball line assembly folks. Here's our pay per hour. And they just deliberately set it higher than the other manufacturers. You know, kind of a little indirect poach. That's indirect. Versus like a headhunter style where you call up Keith Elwin and say, I want you at my company. Do you think they've tried to do that? Maybe. Because they were in Chicago before, so some of that design team could have already been poached. Right. That's where I think. If they ever did an outreach, it was probably quite a while ago. I don't think they constantly are trying to steal new design talent because given their game output, what would they do with them? Yeah, that's a good point. I don't think they're trying to do more design. It would be mostly line workers if they were trying to do anything. No, I think, yeah, I think it's going to be what they're going to be trying to acquire will be people that are helping with the manufacturing.
    22:06
    And it's still expensive to manufacture out of either one of those areas, I would think. Again, I wouldn't want to speculate because I don't know what the state's tax break structure is for manufacturing. Well, if you're not going to speculate, I sure as hell need to stay away from it then. Well, I'm not as smart. Some people will go and they'll look at income tax rates or something and say, well, this is a bad business state and this is a good business state. And speaking from Kansas' perspective where we decimated our income tax rates under a plan that would somehow seduce businesses and it didn't work, it's like that's not all what factors. And especially most of the time, state tax rates, once you factor in breaks and deductions, actually aren't that high. Federal income taxes are a big push, can be a big suppressant on businesses that most states don't actually have that much that they can control. It's usually fairly small. Of course, different states work differently. Bigger question here. Does this Dennis Creasel delay the next upcoming game that we see from Jersey Jack Pimble?
    23:10
    It shouldn't delay anything on the design side, but it does make me wonder if they're going to have delays period on builds. not even talking about the next game delays on wonkas wonkas are in stock over right i mean they're not buying all new machines are they they got to be shipping that stuff that is yeah that's true that's true uh we do know that willie wonkas are in stock as well i i think there's still some dialed ins as well as some so they may have a enough of a surplus to weather that shift okay well uh yeah i think it's reasonable to think it would delay the next game and i would i would guess that if the rumor is true that eric menier's on the next title from jersey jack pinball that game has probably been done if not uh in the finalization stages so bill of materials already done their parts they already know what they need but setting up an entire line at a new facility i don't it i'm hard pressed to think it is not going to delay this at all well i i think it's reason i think it would delay production would it delay the game announcement i think will come down to whether jersey jack wants to try and pull a wonka again where they basically start getting games in homes within 60 days or if they're willing to go back more to their old style and be like all right we're gonna announce it texas and it's not gonna be ready till june do you think the jersey jack falls into that trap of wanting to announce the show and not being ready I think if they've got Wonka's that are built and just sitting there, that they've got to announce their next game to try and get some hype for sales at some stage. So I don't think they want to go back, but I think that they might feel they have to if the line's slowing. As a distributor, I received more pre-orders for Willy Wonka than any title. And I've only been doing the business for over a year, but it was huge. This pre-order was huge. Everybody had to have a Willy Wonka. But this is also a title where I had the most people drop out than anything else that we had sold. Well, that's interesting. There wasn't a big lag time between that game's release from its announcement, though. So I'm a little surprised to hear that. I mean, they didn't lose a bunch of features like Pirates did. No, but it got a lot of press. All right, so everybody's moving to Chicago. But what about the founder, Jack Guarneri? And we know that his daughter, Jen, Jersey Jen, works there as well. Where did they go? Did they go to Chicago? Do they still operate out of New Jersey? What do you think the deal is there? That's interesting. I would guess that they are not moving. But I just, yeah, that's a really good question that I don't know. I don't really have a clue. Could they do their work that they do remotely? I mean, Jack travels to a lot of shows and stuff. In theory, I could imagine him essentially working from home and still being based in New Jersey and not being particularly disruptive because his travel budget would probably still be about the same. And they do have a side company, I believe. I think Jack still owns, what, pinballsales.com? See, I didn't know if he's involved with anything else or not. That's what makes it so hard to speculate on it. So my gut instinct is, given how high up he is with the organization, and if the investors have more of a say than he does, it might just be that he stays where he's at and just doesn't go into an office. Besides the line workers, there were not a lot of people over there. I know Butch Peel, I believe, was over there. Even one of the main techs at Jersey Jack Pinball was not even stationed in New Jersey. I believe they were in West Virginia or Virginia or something like that. So it'll be interesting to see what ends up shaking out here. As a distributor that about the information that I know We were told the morning of this announcement came out the afternoon So let me ask you a question if you don mind Given this shift and the emphasis that this is a cost-saving maneuver to be all under one roof, does that impact on the consumer side any cost on these games, which do run higher than pretty much all other manufacturers?
    27:27
    Is that an implication that possibly prices would stay steady or go down? Yeah, I'm asking you, do you think that we see a price dip on future Jersey Jack games because they've done such a deliberate cost-saving maneuver? I would say absolutely not. One of the things I could see Jersey Jack Pinball trying to do is ramp up a little bit. I think the owners of the company, the investors, whatever you want to call them at this point, they've got two options now that they are relocating. Option number one is business as usual. Let's keep trying to crank out one machine a year. the models we have are good we'll try to get those licenses or they double down and they say look we're looking for a big change here so we're moving all of our operations to be more competitive and with that we are going to open up to two lines to two three lines we're going to do something a little bit bigger and that's where maybe you would see a a more operator friendly model because they did shift to that with this whole willy wonka standard taking out a main mech reducing the price an additional $1,000 of $7,500 plus shipping. So maybe you see that, a separate line for operators. They take that standard edition and they go even closer to that MSRP of $7,000. That's pure speculation. I have no clue what they will do. But I think if you're going to see any reduction in pricing, it's going to be due to something like that. Okay. Do you think that this is a sign of weakness for Jersey Jack? I would need clarification on sign of weakness, what that means. That they're at the point where, obviously, this has been an inefficient approach that they've been doing since inception. But now that they're actually addressing it, that means the company is not on good financial footing. I would have no clue. If I were to guess, I think that this company has everything that it needs to be twice as successful. They just have to find a way, and I think this move to Chicago may be a good idea. Oh, I think it's a good idea. I think that this inefficiency should have been addressed years ago. And I think that from distribution, it's a hell of a lot cheaper for myself to ship something from the center of America rather than the East Coast. So if I were to ship a game from New Jersey all the way to California, with the weight and the dimensions of the PALs and everything, these things are costing $500 just to ship over there, if not a little bit more. And we know that the customers generally pay for Jersey Jack shipping games. So from Chicago, you're going to save $100 there. I think that maybe they're going all in here. One last hurrah. I don't know. But I still think that they have everything they need, Dennis, to be two times as successful as they have been in the last handful of years. I think they have everything that they could be more successful. I don't think they could double production and sell it in the current market. And I don't think that's their fault. Even though there's growth. It was a killer theme. That's a killer IP. Well, yeah, I suppose it's possible. I mean, it's possible. I may be wrong, after all. There may be a murder of crows I have to eat.
    30:47
    Ken didn't know that the murder was... It was right, right? Was I right? Well, there are a lot of those really archaic grouping for... It's not just birds, but there's like a parliament of owls. Oh, I didn't know that one. There are a lot of obscure ones that come up from like 14th century English hunters came up with all that stuff. So there usually plays off the behavior of the animals or what they remind them of. There's a whole... You can go look up a paddling of ducks. That's one. Yeah, there's a lot of weird ones. A gander of geese? Well, you know, from, I forget the term, people who study birds, they actually just call them all flocks. Oh, I see. So it would be a flock of crows. Yeah, no, that's technically true. Would it be a flock of crows or a flock of crow? I think you'd say crows, plural, but I'm not positive of that. I kind of like how pretentious it sounds to say a flock of crow. I think there might even be a bird where it's a pretentious of something, but I don't remember. Really? I'd have to look at a list. Oh, that's awesome. I'd have to look at a list. Taking us back on track. So, yeah, killer thing. Yeah. I don't double, though, double output from, I mean, Wonka was, in my judgment, their best theme they've ever had so far. My personal opinion. Well, in my opinion as well, but I don't think it doubled their output. You don't think they could double the sales if they didn't botch Toy Story? If that is a true rumor title in the future, doubling, I don't think doubling production would be hard at all. They've got to ramp up that damn production. They've got to make it more efficient. They've got to make it quicker. You've got to get those machines out. Double is such a thing.
    32:25
    It's such an incredible increase to double something. 100%. And my issue isn't that it's not about the, yeah, having a good theme will help. Having a good layout will help. they've had a lot of those pieces as you've noted to be really really successful but one of the things that i think is important to remember is there are a lot while pinball is growing as a hobby there are a lot of people that look and they definitely don't want to take that new in box hit and jersey jack just like everyone else is not getting any cheaper to buy new and with that and we see how much their games fall in terms of raw dollars the percentage might be about the same as Stern, but in terms of raw dollars, how much we see their games dip, if you just wait a little bit, that makes it very hard to want to go and say, well, why would I buy Toy Story when I know there's going to be some guy who's going to list it on Pinslide with less than 100 plays in under six months, and I'm going to save $1,000 on it. I think it's a ratio thing, though. I think it's a cost ratio analysis, if I were to guess, because Stern LEs, similarly priced products, I think they show that significance of a drop as well. So I think it's just kind of where the pricing is on that. I don't know if you're going to see a Wonka. Like, for example, Wonka Standard, $7,500 when that was released. The secondary price for those products, I think, probably still greater than the secondary pricing on, like, maybe a Munsters premium or a Black Knight premium. So I don't see it. Yeah, I think that five years ago, a lot of people were buying games, especially ones labeled as LE, for speculative purposes, and a lot of that has dried up except under extremely rare quantity scenarios or almost incidental things like what happened with Pirates of the Caribbean for Jersey Jack, where they just didn't end up continuing the build as long as everyone had assumed they would. that's not scenarios that in most cases the manufacturers want yeah spooky with rick and morty but they went in knowing what their build capabilities are because they have a very small line yeah i you know jersey jack isn't like that if anything the one of the issues i've heard with jersey jack is their le line their middle line is not truly le because they just make a new version if they ever got close to reaching the number and in the case of something like wonka when you say it's 5,000, you know they're never going to get there. And I would like to see them really pull back on that. I've said the same thing publicly to American Pinball. You know, Oktoberfest, I don't know how many they sold, but they would sell a lot quicker if there was a capped, limited, finite amount and then move on to your next title. We know that Jersey Jack's been bad about that, reproducing these different models and nothing feels truly special. but I will say the Jersey Jack has they have the design team I mean they've got the hotness and Pat Lawler I don't know how long he'll be going for but Eric Menier he's one of the hottest new designers in the entire industry you got Keith Johnson which is known for superb rule sets Joe Katz following in his footsteps and people don't appreciate Wonka code and they're just wrong like the code on that game is phenomenal it's just It's not as blatantly obvious and laid out as a mode-based, in-your-face, here's the inserts kind of game. But there is some genius there. So in the engineering over there, they've got it. They just need to do something with it. That's a good point. I pulled up my bird weird grouping list. Yes, to tie it all together. No, pretentiousness is not one in this list, though there is piousness of doves. Yeah. I can see that. Wisdom of Owls is also another version of Owls. Damn, Owls get double. Okay. Oh, here's a good play. A Wake of Buzzards.
    36:22
    That sounds like the TPN thread on Pinside. And your favorite, a Fall of Woodcocks. Oh, those poor fallen cocks. Yeah. It's hard life. I don't like Woodcocks' fall. Stand strong, cocks. Stand strong. What is a woodcock? I don't know. At first I thought it was a woodpecker, but they clearly have woodpeckers as something else. The only relevance I know of woodcock is the last name of an individual that developed a psychological test. I think it's a neurological batter. Woodcock Johnson. We always giggled in grad school when we heard that. I don't know much about birds. Sorry. You're not a bird watcher? No. I could see you watching birds with your binoculars. I don't have binoculars, Zach. Do you not? No. You seem like the kind of guy with binoculars.
    37:10
    Or at least like a nighttime vision goggles or something. A peeping Tom is what you're making it sound like. No, like someone that likes gadgetry. And like a telescope. You know, like that cool guy from Silence of the Lambs. Or a microscope. I see you with scopes of some type. I don't have a microscope either. No microscope? You could study the corona. I think, since it's a virus, you would need an electron microscope to study that. Oh, well, how about that, Mr. I Write Articles on Coronavirus? All right, let's shift over. If we're in Elk Grove Village, let's talk about some Stern Pinball. They've had some updates recently. Number one, heavy metal artwork for the Translight was shown in all its high-res glory. Take a look at that. Yep, I've seen it. I don't know who the artist is. Maybe, I guess it's for that magazine or for that publication, Heavy Metal? Yeah, I think that the art... It's pretty well done. It's almost a montage. I think the robot on there is from the first issue of Heavy Metal Magazine. Look at you. Thank you. Okay. Good research there. I thought it was Viper off of Stern.
    38:20
    I like the skull to the right. That looks cool. That looks very zombie-y. That reminds me of the movie. Okay. Because I want to think there was a scene where a pilot, because he's got the pilot goggles, and you see the planes in the upper right on the translight. I think in the movie there was a part where these guys were on this plane and one of their faces melts off. Oh, jeez. I've never seen the film. Never seen the film. What do you think about the idea of a heavy metal, you know, $8,300 limited contract manufactured? I'll be amazed if they sell 100 of them. Really? Yeah. Too expensive. It's not supreme where people are like, let's buy this brick and then sell it on eBay. It doesn't have that going for it. True. and at $8,300. I don't think there's anything inherent about Heavy Metal Magazine that makes me think that's a magazine for rich people. So I just don't see them selling. There are so many high-quality games that you can get new in box for less than what this is purportedly going to be sold for. I think that's its issue. Okay. I think it's a fair assessment. And it's a DMD. It kind of nailed the call from there for me as the collector. Nothing about it is going to. I think on the last episode with Ken, you mentioned that this wasn't, in your view, designed for collectors. It's one of those where we get to say it's not made for us. It's made for non-pinball people. But at that price point, I don't think there are enough non-pinball people that are going to buy this. Well, I'm sure it'll be enough for a store. I don't think they're expecting some grand seller here. Also, we can't have a pinball show without talking about toppers. The Black Knight topper, Dennis, says it's shipping this week. Why is the Black Knight topper so much more affordable than the Star Wars topper, Zach? Well, it's not limited edition, I suppose. But it's so much cooler, wouldn't you, as a topper fan? It's subjective. Don't you, well, okay. It's fair enough that you can claim that's a subjective statement. Are you honestly going to tell me that R2 kind of spinning his head and going, versus the Black Knight, which like literally spits flame? No, no, no. The Black Knight topper is much, much cooler. Okay. But my argument would be, what good is a Black Knight topper for me if I likely won't own that game? I will likely very much so own a Star Wars again, and the topper on that makes more sense than a Black Knight topper sitting on the shelf. I don't know. If we could get it fully integrated while it was on the shelf, it might be worthy. You know what? I would. In case they actually misunderstood and didn't know I was joking. It does not literally spit flame. If you're thinking you're going to be roasting marshmallows over a $450 topper, that's only going to happen if you put it in the fireplace. Steve Ritchie attempted probably to make that happen. Well, the problem would be you'd have to keep refilling the propane or whatever its fuel would be, and that'd get kind of annoying. Butane. Yeah, butane. It's a lighter.
    41:12
    Here's the black night topper made by Bic. Oh, my gosh. Now, we do know that Stern sometimes is slow on rollout. I've had a lot of people preorder these, and I tell them a little bit of patience. because, you know, we're still waiting for some Star Wars toppers here. I was promised Turtles months ago. Oh, that's been the rumor, hasn't it? It's been one of them. Why do you need upcoming games when you have one of the greatest Stern games in a while, and that's Elvira House of Horrors? There was a recent code update, version 0.92, that released last week, and it's a hefty one. We've jumped from 0.85 to 0.92. Two, did you see any of the specifics on this code update, Dennis? I did not. Ooh, we got turrets moving now. The turret's moving. We've got a lot of speech. Light shows aplenty. I like this in particular. Whenever the shout song comes on at the house party midway through the game, the video and lights now are synced with the music. Lights on the house are going to flash bright. House is dancing left and right. Video's playing. Shout! And then all the, it's coordinated now. That was already a moment. Now it's a moment times three. I really enjoy Elvira. I like it a lot more than I thought I would. And I like where the rules were even before. It's such a mode-driven pen, and I enjoy that. And unfortunately, because there's no pro model, it's out of my price range. But I do get to play it on location, so that's nice. There is just a lot going on in this game. And at .92, we still got room for more. But this game, this last code update, listener, is the one that for some reason, when I started playing it through about five or six games, something clicked where I thought, okay, this is really getting fleshed out here. There's a lot of details everywhere in this game now. And here comes Lyman Sheets with this game. And to show people what he did on Batman, this is coming to fruition on Elvira's House of Horrors. And I couldn't be happier. Plus, I think the wizard modes in this are really getting some depth as well. Yeah, trending up, I think, is House of Horrors. I've been saying it for a couple months now, right? I don't remember. Everything seems to trend up. A little game that's not getting a lot of love is Stranger Things Premium LE. Everybody's going to just give it time. Give it time. It'll have this whole Elvira effect. But there's a pensider by the name of Corvair61 that is selling vinyl. Did you see this? It's performing better on the projection mapping because it's a different material. So the light is being saturated better. I heard about it, but I did not go and look at the photos. It is significantly different. It is better to a significant degree, I would say. While I've heard a number of complaints about Stranger Things, I hadn't heard that the projection feature was really off-putting to people. Initially, I know there was a lot of concern that maybe it would be too washed out, but I thought most people thought it was okay. better is nice don't i mean don't get me wrong but yeah it's one of those things i think where people saw it it's a new innovation they accepted it because they thought no it's plenty bright this just takes it a little bit more with the saturations of the blacks especially i i think sir stranger things premium le's problem isn't its projection mapping really is it uh the no i think that's the brutality of it no i i think the yeah i think the issues are what have been previously spoken about that aren't just in some cases specific to the premium le like the Demi Gorgon shot and how they're having to make it a bash toy now because it's just too hard to successfully tune it in so that you can get the shot into the mouth and then of course the UV gate I think those are the issues that suppress on that more than the adjustments that need to be made on a lot of these games the box magnet doesn't always work right I mean all those other complaints yep i still play the hell out of it well still love it oh speaking of adjustments a lot's been going on the rick and morty world at spooky pinball they've had some videos that they have announced spooky luke did these videos i believe they are adjustment videos where they're showing some adjustments for the shooter entry wire form they're showing adjustments for the coil power settings like the trough kicker and stuff they're showing a video for adjustment on the inner loop uh so a lot of adjustments being made we're hearing a lot if you guys have been following the pin side thread on rick and morty a lot of adjustments being made and kind of a mixed bag here when it comes to some of these adjustments in the way the game is shooting from the factory have you heard the same i've heard multiple people point out and we discussed it a couple weeks ago from those both the reveal stream and then the dead flip arcade stream about those those inner loops uh the one with the spinner and how clunky the ball is with it and then that upper basically that upper flipper shot selection a lot of people are not satisfied with how it's been feeding that's my understanding does it feel like this this feedback is coming at the same intensity as other manufacturers um no no but uh again if you're not already in on the game why would you care for a lot of people. I think that might be part of it. That's a good point. Your audience is so limited, you have to factor that. Basically, the people that are going to be most concerned are going to be people that are already in on the game. Not a lot of them will probably be on location to play. A few. So there'll be some outside interest, but it's not like what you might see with Jersey Jack or Stern Pinball, where there's so many more sales, so the volume has to increase just because the volume of games has increased. Yeah, and like the coil power settings, I'm fine with. that's nice that you can adjust those the inner loop i'm actually okay with because i think there's got to be a way you can set that spinner up so it's not catching it the one that i i didn't think about when i saw the video it actually made it more of an issue for me is the way the shooter entry wire form happens i don't know if you saw this but it essentially comes from the shooter lane and instead of just a ramp to throw it up into the play field there's like this wire form and it's supposed to hit the back of the wire form and actually then hit the play field for the third flipper. But it's weird. It's a weird design. So, yeah, I was listening to another podcast, and one of them had noted that during their monitoring of the stream, I think the one that Deadflip did at the arcade, that like half the time the ball was actually not getting fed to the third flipper. It was going all the way around. Yes. How the shooter, and I guess, I had not realized this, but I guess the shooter isn't with a rod. It's a button shooter. Yes, correct. Okay. Yeah, and so the ball, and Spooky Luke was showing that in the video, where if that end of that wire form is bent up just a little bit, because there's not really anything holding it there. It's pretty loose back there, but it is strong enough. He did say that it's strong enough, but if it's bent up a little bit, it will just go into that right orbit, which design-wise seems like the better shooter release, but I guess you don't want to be enabling that tough shot all the time from the shooter. I don't know. I would have rather just found a way for the wireform to go up that little mini orbit up the right. It's like this little boomerang orbit shape. It is a little weird. I don't want it hitting. It's almost like, remember Theater of Magic when you plunge and it just comes right to your right flipper? Yeah. Or Indianapolis 500. Funk. not a feel-good shooter so j-pop likes those shooter entries that go right to the flipper oh even circus volterra you guys know i love that game but you plunge into like this stand-up target and it's out of world world cup soccer plunge uh does that plunge into the right flipper where it just feeds clean yeah at least tails arabian ice you have that hop and you get to pick the uh the vase that the snake is in yeah well yeah he's been i i prefer that his style that he did with that and Totan for skill shot selection. Yeah, Totan and World Cup's the same way where depending on the strength of your plunge because it does like a 180 and loops over and then you're trying I like that better than the theater skill shot stupid. Or why not just have the, like if Scott was going to have that where it just hits the wire form and falls, if he wants it to control to the third flipper, why not do like what Shadow does? When you shoot it, it's got that 180 whip around upside down and then it feeds the right flipper but to have that 180 flip around and then feed it to the right flipper. I don't know. It's another effect you could also do with an up post or some sort of gate like a stern Star Trek for example. If you hold in the right flipper button and do the plunge it will hit and immediately not go into the pops and will cleanly feed if you want to go for the warp ramp skill shot. They could have done that. An up post in the back right orbit to where when you plunge, the up post goes up, it hits that, and then trickles back down to the right. But that is a BOM impact, because that's another coil. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Pirates of the Caribbean by Jersey Jack also did that. And if it's only for the skill shot, it does kind of seem a little wasteful to me. Here's one post for one purpose. Yeah, but I don't know. I think it was in, I don't know.
    50:43
    Things like this that I always want to create mods to make just... Well, maybe the modders will. Maybe the modders will modify and make a mod for you. I hope so. Now, where these games are in production, they are going relatively quickly, it feels like, over at Spooky Pinball. Hilton, in the thread on Pinside, said that they are likely shipping in the 60s now, the numbers in sequential order, in the 60s. They're moving along pretty well for January. Well, I think their crew has been there a while and is pretty experienced. They're far enough away that Jersey Jack won't be stealing all their employees. jjp luke yeah he doesn't have the same ring to it that's right he's not bug now he's jjp wasp oh my gosh it's no longer squirrel she's jjp marmot like is a marmot an animal yeah i wonder what a gaggle of marmot are probably not a gaggle but what is a marmot Is that like a Vesa? I don't remember. It's like a groundhog.
    51:49
    It's a rodent. Okay. It's a rodent. They're large ground squirrels. So it is the squirrel family. I did get that right. Yep. Huh? Damn. Oh, a groundhog is a marmot.
    52:02
    Oh, really? So marmot is the family. Yeah. Well, it's a genus. I wonder what the difference between a gopher and a groundhog are. I don't know, but I also never thought much about gophers. or you're just thinking of no good gophers because it's a terrible game. Oh, you know, I'm not a fan of it either. You said you were listening to a podcast. I was listening to a podcast this week. This flipping podcast, Tommy on there said that he, I think he went up to Spooky to pick up one for a location, Rick and Morty, and he said that they indicated that there were two more licensed titles coming out next. And he was talking about why there's only 750 and Charlie was saying, basically we got to move on here like we we've got two more licensed titles and those license have you know definitive timelines and time frames as well so we've got to we got to keep pushing through here so two more well other than america's most haunted every official spooky game has been a license sure so that's not unusual and i didn't know are there still people that are debating or confused why the limit was 750 for rick and morty no i don't think so i would hope not logistically it doesn't make any i mean can you imagine people being on a wait list for two years i remember the days when people were on wait lists that long yeah you can still talk to him big lebowski pre-orders poor big lebowski people well it's exactly no one wants to be in that position was was that way we're not even gonna see a scott game for three years yeah another scott game yeah assuming he does one yeah do you think within three years spooky builds and expands no no you think they will stay within the next three years? They will not expand and double their output or at least a 25% increase of their output? Nope. I do not. Okay. I think the time to have done it was already past this point and they haven't. So I don't think that's what they want. Does Squirrel and Bug take over this company?
    54:04
    Eventually. I could see that. Do we see a game from Bug design-wise in the next two? Maybe I remember speculating on that a long time ago just wondering if that his interest But again I don know He might He still a young guy Yeah Well he might be interested in doing something with Spooky and not doing game design He might be more interested in the manufacturing aspects or like Squirrel on the business side. Like, I think she's doing a lot of the marketing stuff. You mean J.J.P. Marmot? Yes. J.J.P. Marmot.
    54:37
    Wasp was cooler than Marmot. I will give a lot of credit and congratulations to the Spooky Pinball Podcast because I think they just surpassed 10 years of podcasting. That's a long time. That bucks the trend that people like you were reinforcing with your less than two years of survival on a single show. Well, now, they did one every month. That's a little bit more doable.
    55:05
    Oh, I agree. Yeah, I'm over here. I'm referred to as Rumpelstiltskin in the industry. Dennis? I'm weaving gold every week, baby.
    55:13
    Doesn't he, like, take people's children or something? What does he do? Like, he weaves gold, but he has some evil part of him. What does he do? Yes, he could spin straw into gold, but he wanted... At what cost? I think he wants first-born children. Well, that was just because of us. He wants first-born children? Really? Well, those... Gosh. Them grim fairy tales. It feels like we're discussing the next theme from American Pinball, but... Oh, my God. I hope they make one that Rumpelstiltskin. Oh, I hope they don't because they just won't sell. That'd be so awesome. But, yeah, so, like, the story is a woman is, she's supposed to be the one to spin it, but she can't spin it fast enough. It was basically sweatshop conditions. So he comes in and he's like, I got an offer for you. I can do it, but I need babies. I saw my baby. It's like David Bowie. What did I do?
    56:13
    I'm picturing Rumpelstiltskin as David Foley in the library. Well, I think he's supposed to be more of like an elf. Yeah, he's a trollish fella, isn't he?
    56:28
    Yeah, so, I don't know. Now you made me look it up. because I okay so okay well it wasn't really a sweatshop apparently the woman's father lied to a king and said she could spin straw into gold so it wasn't so much that she wasn't fast enough but rather that she couldn't do it she's the first millennial you can have an award you can do it you can spin the straw into gold honey you can do anything the miller was trying to look good apparently according to the write-up so rumple still seeing how to come in and make it happen yeah so he comes in and uh so oh and so the king tells her she has to do it she has all night to spin this straw into gold and if she doesn't he's going to cut her head off because you know that's how you solve wow that's how you solve escalated quickly so so rumple stilt skin comes in and he does it but he wants a necklace a necklace no babies huh yes no not at first oh and then he does it again because there was even more gold that needed to be spun then he wanted a ring and got that then the third day there was even more gold to be spun and he the king said he would marry her if she could do it but she'd be executed if she couldn't so but she didn't have any more items so that's when rumpled stiltzkin says i want your first form and he spends it That was his plan the whole time, I have a feeling.
    57:57
    Yes. And then in the story, if I remember right, it was he made a deal where she could keep the baby if she could guess his name. What? Took a weird turn. Well, it was a grim tale.
    58:11
    Yeah. How does she know what his name is? Well, she doesn't. All her guesses are bad, of course, because Rumpelstiltskin isn't exactly the easiest name to remember. No. Even back then. He's the one and only. And so apparently what happens is she was out wandering in the woods and encountered him where he was out and he's singing a song and the song included his name. I am Rumpelstiltskin. I live on 40 Main. My social security number is 397948776. Yeah, it's kind of like that. My mother's maiden name is – what a Rumpel idiot. So what does he do with the baby then? No, he didn't get to have the baby. Oh. The whole deal was before she... Was she carrying his baby? Rumpel's baby? No, no, no. Maybe it was like a custody disagreement. Remember she married the king because she spun the three knights, she spun gold. Can you just cut that whole thing? I like the Rumpelstiltskin talk. Okay, well, I don't think the listeners want to... That's a bubble! This whole episode feels like a big shit show. I don't know. And Dr. John also discussed, because he's the shit talker now, so he also discussed, and if you didn't hear the last episode, It's Spooky Haggis something talk. What was it, Ken? Spooky Haggis. Yeah, Spooky Haggis Industry Talk. S-H-I-T. But then you hear a medical term that John throws out to us at the beginning of the segment, which I have yet to look up, and I don't know how to spell to look it up, but I think it's also a play on words. I got you. Somebody will figure that out. Well, that clever Dr. John. Dr. John, he showed up on the Final Round Pinball Podcast, too. Hey, did an excellent job. They kind of talk about a tournament that he ran. John is a professional. He's a doctor. And he was talking about haggis. So I thought, why don't you and I discuss a little haggis pinball? They recently dropped a video.
    60:02
    Dr. John was talking about some other stuff. But they recently dropped a video showcasing the replies to other podcasters, other comments in the comments section on YouTube or Pinside.
    60:15
    He was talking about me. So he was talking about the scratch test. Does everybody have a running commentary with you? Not only on other shows and other podcasts, but now the manufacturers are addressing you directly. Well, look, I think that when I bring up very logical conversations, then yeah, why wouldn't they? Well, how often do you hear a question, a legitimate question that's being asked of any of these manufacturers or mod makers? And there's really not a direct answer. There's one of two things that happen. Either it's ignored in the hopes that it's not an issue, or there is something that is changed down the road, but you never hear the story about it. So for a manufacturer such as Haggis Pinball to address some of your concerns, I think it shows the community that, hey, we're listening. And not only are we listening, but we're going to provide you direct feedback to address the concerns that you may have. It's refreshing. I like it. I enjoy it. we've said at the very beginning, Ken, you and I and Dennis wanted to be a conduit for communication between, you know, the hobbyists, the collectors, the, the barcade owners and operators, the manufacturers. We want to be the voice to discuss that. So he did show a video, very likable video. God, that son of a bitch is so lovable. But he did a scratch test. He did, he said that there is no yellowing on acrylic and a ball skidding test too. So for the scratch test, remember that clink clunk clink clunk that they've been doing for weeks upon it was the roll test with the 800,000 rolls back and forth he did stop that and then he said if you it does have some dirt and debris since this is a manufacturing plant and he showed how to clean it uh some alcohol rubbed it right on there it was clean some people are saying you know what if debris gets under the ball like metal shavings or something might that scratch it because this is a clean ball clean environment So he took, you guys, a piece of steel wool and rubbed it across a piece of regular acrylic and this non-scratching acrylic that they are using for their playfields. And there was, in fact, scratches all over their normal acrylic, but none to be seen on their proprietary acrylic playfield tops. That was cool. I have not seen this video, so I'm going on what you're telling me. Yeah, and I'll give a conclusion here, but then really in a clever way, he did a ball skidding test. He said, well, some people are saying, like Zach Manning was saying, that balls don't just roll constantly like this little test we were doing. They actually skid physically before they do roll. So he said, let's do it above and beyond just to show you that these play fields do not show damage. And he takes a ball and skips it like a flipping stone, man, right across. He just, bam, hits it on this play field probably about ten times on video, and there's not one mark. So he just giggles, and he's like, I'm happy to do as many tests as we need to do to showcase how proud we are of this product. He said, but there's no damage. There's nothing we can do. And at the end of the video, right when they were cutting out, the guy was whistling. He went and took a sledgehammer and sledgehammered that damn play field. Do you think this is what Deep Root has, like a similar concoction for their play field? If it's not, then why not? Because I'm sold, you guys. You're not sold because one of your concerns prior, and this is where there was some listener feedback on this, was that your concern was that the ball plays differently potentially on acrylic. So if the thing is indestructible. Thank you, Ken. I'm still holding true to that one. But listen, but right. But if the physics of the ball are off enough to where it plays differently and pinball becomes a completely different play field, so to speak, is the indestructible play field enough to look past the the way the ball reacts and i'm glad you brought that up because i was about to fold okay well but the one thing i noticed too is like balls will play differently slightly from play field the play field manufactured manufacturer too yeah the amount of clear on there yeah or the you know how recently it was waxed this other thing i think if if assuming it's not dramatically different if the acrylic plays close enough to what I'm used to, I'll just assume that, hey, this is how this game plays. I don't have a problem with it. I love to see stuff that's minty and pristine. Every time I get a game, I try to, you know, a used game, I try to make it look as new as possible. I've paid for a high-end restoration or two. I've since kind of learned how to do some of this myself, and I'm always trying to make the game look like as close as it did out of the box. So this play field excites me because that's the most difficult thing that you need to repair or to restore is usually going to be that play and the really cool thing is they're doing through hole components so that everything under the play field doesn't go all the way up to that uh that proprietary acrylic and everything that goes into the acrylic like if you want to just simply take the thick acrylic off separate it from the wood and replace it you can do that without taking off anything on the underside of the play field right that's that's That's pretty awesome. That's pretty cool. So you can do a topside teardown and shop that whole game out from the topside of the play field without having to remove any mechs or anything from underneath. That's how it was explained. So I will say in conclusion, the scratch test convinced me. The ball skidding test, I'm a believer in. I'm good with that. Actually, that was quite entertaining as well as convincing. The yellowing, I'm going to take you for your word, Damien, because that smile, to be honest. beautiful smile on that hair you like that smile i'd really do so are you sold now on this process meaning do you have the same concerns or are you still is the jury still out for you i mean obviously it's got to be for everybody in sleep play the game but i mean you are more at ease with this process now you're more accepting of an acrylic top play field so overall i have zero concerns, maybe about 1% concern, over the condition and how this thing will damage or potentially not damage based on dimpling, based on skidding, based on dirt, based on any of it, I am pretty much sold. Now, you brought up a good point, though, Ken. I'm not sold on playability because, call me crazy, but I can tell the difference between a freshly clear-coated playfield and a plastic protector. You can say I don't, people, but I can. And I don't like the feel of a plastic protector the way that they play. But a clear-coated play field, I do. So the jury's still out on me on the way this thing shoots. But it's hard not to fall in love with this company and what they're doing. Well, and that's going to be my point before we wrap up this story. Because there was interaction and concerns were addressed as best as they could, it really swayed your way of thinking. I know you're not 100% convinced, but think about what had just had happened over the last two weeks. Questions and answers and almost like a resolution and putting your mind at ease. You have now more peace of mind. So me, yeah. I thought, why isn't every company doing this at this point? And that's what I was going to say. Kudos to Damien and Haggis Pinball for taking a community concern and addressing those directly. So nicely done. Here's the other thing, though, before we go to the next topic. he did announce that on their next upcoming haggis video you guys have to follow subscribe to youtube and their facebook because he said the next video is going to because we know that they're offering two playfield options the regular wood if you wanted to do the normal industry standard right now the proprietary acrylic top that's not going to dimple or scratch or anything like that he said ken that there was going to be a third option playfield that they were going to announce on the next video.
    68:02
    There's going to be more play field options than machines sold at some point here. How about do simple better? Get one or two processes down, you're adding a third. I guess that's cool. I may have waited the third one for the next game.
    68:16
    Do whatever you want to do. As long as you're cranking out machines, I could care less what you're doing. I don't see there being any other option if you guys are so behind this and it's really as great as you're saying it is. but there doesn't that needs to be the only option in my opinion turning up this week ladies and gentlemen uh let's go let's talk uh let's do stern electronics here stern electronics meteor meteors all the hype stars no please slam tail podcast made all those things trend up yeah see which uh yawn stargazer overpriced quicksilver what a design man it's meteor meteor is the king of stern electronics machines you've heard it here and numbers don't lie ladies and gentlemen we're up at 1500 for a decent meteor gone are the days of eight nine hundred dollar meteors that look nice no no play fields are usually decent on those too i don't know why those didn't wear out too horribly bad. I know you can get a Meteor $1,500 and it's going to be a pretty decent one. If you want one that's super nice, you're getting closer to $2,000. Meteor trending up. What do you think, Dennis? I mean, I like Meteor. I was watching for one for quite a while, but the prices have become something that it would need to be a project for me to feel it was worth it. Another Super Orbit? Well, it doesn't play like Super Orbit. It does have a spinner to exploit, so I guess there's a similarity there. Well, I'm just saying you pick up the, you know. But, I mean, Meteor's got a whole bunch of drop targets, and Super Orbit doesn't have a single drop target. So, I mean, otherwise, and being different manufacturers. I'm not saying they're similar, Dan. I'm just saying you pick up beaters. I'm really glad you brought it up.
    70:07
    Look, Dennis, damn. Can I get through this? I don't know. Can you? I'll tell you somebody who can. Training up this week is Lyman Sheets. Ladies and gentlemen, the one, the only, King Lyman. maybe he's the one that impregnated that girl against Rumpelstiltskin.
    70:23
    I don't know. Don't want to throw out rumors there, but I like the Rumpelstiltskin discussion. I still don't understand why we had it. Oh, I don't know, but it was glorious. But Lyman Sheets is getting, he's getting the nod this week as a trending up on the pinball shows, pinball market trends, because of his not only his recent coat on Elvira and this thing becoming a beauty. No, no. He has done something that I've never seen done in a Stern game, and I've been waiting, anticipating, a little drool forming in the right side of my left mouth. And that's coil adjustments, my friends, on the trough kickout. I've told you guys it comes factory at .224. Dial it back down to .176 because that's the lowest you can go, and it's going to get up in that trough shooter lane quick enough. But no, Lyman Sheets on the recent Elvira code has opened it up to whatever number you want. And if you want it at 50, it's not going to kick out, but if you want it there, at least you can go to the bottom form of that. Stern, let's continue with these full arrangement of coil adjustments. You see now on Stern pinball machines, not just a soft, regular, hard, you like your flipper hard, Dennis, or you like it soft? They're going to answer that. Gone are the days of hard, soft, and regular flipper strength. You can adjust them just like you can a Jersey Jack or an American pinball. So, bravo. Nicely done, Lime and Cheese. You might not have started that, but damn it. You brought the bottom to that coil adjustment for the trough kick out. And for that, I appreciate you. Thank you. And that's a training up. But unfortunately, this week, training down is, oh, we just talked about it in this Sea Witch. Yep, Sea Witch. They're in electronics. Look at the numbers on this thing. The collectors were going crazy over it. It was a beautiful machine. Oh, look at the hand-drawn artwork. Oh, people love it. It's got a loop. Third flip. Everybody loves loops. It has a loop you can't hit. And now the Beatles has perfected that layout by George Gomez. There's no longer as much need for these collectors and these pinball hobbyists and players for a Sea Witch. And numbers have reflected that. Sea Witch has held steady and actually started dropping back down into the $2,500 range for a really nice, decent Sea Witch. Even restoration pieces, $3,000. Sea Witch is an inferior game to Stern, Pinballs, Beatles. Yeah, but the price differential already, even before any of these changes, was so significant that I'm not even sure those are the same market. I don't care if they're the same market or not. One of them has better artwork. It's Beatles. One of them has better sound as Beatles. One of them has better rules as Beatles. One of them has a better layout as Beatles. Everything is Beatles. Sea Witch is dead. So there have been some significant advancements, you're saying, for a 2018 game versus a game from, what, 1980? Yes, and collectors know it now. Collectors could justify it because it looked pretty in their collection. It's gone now. People don't care about Sea Witch. Oh, it now doesn't look pretty. Magically lost its prettiness. People are looking at Sea Witch. They're now thinking, eh, for a couple extra thousand, I can just get a Beatles. A couple extra thousand. You're being real generous with that rounding. I was being a bit generous, yes. Real generous. But trending, also trending down this week is sellers not disclosing pertinent information regarding their used pinball machines. I'm sick and tired of this. You know who you are out there? Actually, I don't know because this is nobody in particular. Like information that you probably should know, right?
    74:02
    Crack cabinet, probably important to relay that information. Fully functional usually means fully functional. Doesn't mean that there's credit dots and the mechanism doesn't work.
    74:14
    You know, this reminds me of this time I wanted three toppings on pizza. One of the toppings didn't work.
    74:22
    Yeah. Be honest. Be upfront. That's all I'm asking from these secondary binders. You're not going to squeeze something by old Zach. I notice all. So you had to turn down some of these games. No. You know what happens? No, I don't. Nothing gets by you, so I'm assuming it ultimately meant you didn't take the game. It gets by me because I've been taking people for their word, and I've been getting screwed.
    74:48
    I've got a new little thing. Instead of bye-bye-bye, we're going to call sell, sell, sell. Sell, sell, sell. This is a game that I'm going to present to you, ladies and gentlemen, that you need to sell on. You need to sell quick because the bottom is going to drop out of this particular title based on my estimation. Numbers don't lie, Dennis. I only report the facts here. And your sell, sell, sell for this week is Data East Guns and Roses. If the rumored title and theme of Guns and Roses by Jersey Jack Pinball does come to fruition and is true, guess what the prices of those Data East are going to go for? because a lot of people are holding on to that title in particular is because of the nostalgia of it. And it is Guns N' Roses. Get rid of it now while you still can because if announcement comes, you've just lost at least $500 all the way maybe to $1,000. They're sitting at about $5,500 right now. You're going to see those go beyond and below that $5,000 threshold if another Guns N' Roses game gets announced. Sell, sell, sell! What do you think about that new segment there? You like it? A little sub-savvy? Tell us buyers what the... You may be right. Why aren't you telling people with turtles to sell?
    76:02
    Because it's already in the shit tank, isn't it? Okay. It's already in the sewers. Turtle time. And my beautiful, wonderful six-pound, four-ounce creasel baby. We can't leave him without talking about this week's Pinball Market Trends Deals of the Week. bye bye bye i'll tell you somebody who wants a uh deal of the week it's rumple still skin no look no one likes these callbacks look my boy rumple buys low on straw sells high on gold he knows all about bye bye bye and this week's deal of the week is an iron maiden legacy of the beast not a premium i hope it is a premium uh what a shock what what do you mean what a shock hmm well only earlier in the episode you talked about picking up an iron maiden premium so yeah let's just shoot myself in the foot because this is the deal of the week how'd your last deal of the week go exactly probably won't matter this isn't my iron maiden premium this is an iron main premium out in Santa Cruz, California, south of San Fran, north of Salinas, west of Modesto.
    77:20
    By Andre060 selling an Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast premium. Look, it's like brand new. It's home use only, low plays, immaculate cabinet. Immaculate cabinet, I would hope so. And it has the Stern Art Blades. Cash and carry $59.95. Buy, buy, buy!
    77:38
    a game of the year premium edition that dropped into the $5,000 ranges? Buy, buy, buy! Well, come on. It's $6,000.
    77:47
    That's $59.95! Buy, buy, buy! I don't care. That's five. It broke that five threshold, and I haven't seen that done. Iron Maiden premiums are $6,500. That's just what they are. Brand new. No, they're $6,000 now. Well, I hope not. I really hope not. $59.95. You better grab this thing before it's gone, gone, gone. And your last deal of the week this week is Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. These things have been trending down lately, but this one, this one's for the collectors out there. For all you higher end collectors, you know who you are. I'm your buddy. I'm one of you alls. But this is out of Surfside Detail out of Irvine, south of Los Angeles, west of Palm Springs. You know what, Dennis? You and I need to take a vacay to Cali. why i don't know i think you and i would like it out there i put sunscreen on your nose we'd have bathing suits that are big one pieces like they used to back in the day gentlemen wore those one pieces striped you like like popeye yes exactly yeah that's what i thought i'll be your bluto surfside detail uh also known as oc pinballs wait a minute this is another distributor oh man i'm shilling for another distributor i want to quit this segment now it's all dead but he's got an alice cooper nightmare castle blue armor mirror blade shaker motor knocker kit everything you want seven thousand dollars and everybody's like wait a minute that's not a deal the week how's that a deal the week these things are selling for like 63 6500 that's not a deal a week well when i tell you what else it includes it will be a deal a week and that ladies and gentlemen, is a f***ing butter cabinet. Buy, buy, buy! Oh, yeah. Grease it down with that suntan lotion. Make it all buttery. That's the deal of the week, ladies and gentlemen. You better buy, buy, buy. I know I would. If I was out on the West Coast. I can't believe I just shilled for another company.
    79:45
    That's your Pinball Shows Pinball Market Trends. Dennis, I'm going to go back into the vault. Before we leave, got to go back into the vault. The old segment vault.
    79:58
    Creaky door. It wasn't bad, right? Well, most people will think of bank vaults and they don't creak like that, but okay.
    80:10
    We're going to play a game that everyone loves. It's called Pinball Password. Remember this game? Yeah, I think I do.
    80:21
    I give the contestant a password. and the contestant then has to use that word or that phrase to identify the pinball machine associated with it they should be able to do it just from the password alone if they guess and they're correct they get five golden points if they guess and they get incorrect they get federal federal points that's right yeah this is a segment where you change the rules to that Well, I balanced it. I'm like Lyman Sheets. I balance my segments, the rules, if I need to. You know, it's an update. This is version 2.3. Yeah, I'm trying to remember the game. Was it Walking Dead or was it Elvira where Lyman made it so if you missed a shot, you lost all your points? Oh, that's pretty mean. I don't remember which one. Oh, yeah, no, it never happened. Oh, I was going to say, I didn't like that one. No, but you can pass. You can pass on the first item and say I pass I don know and then the second password if you get correctly you get four points Third password three points and so on and so forth So I think this is going to be fun We going to have Dennis Creasel do the first round here stump the Creasel And then we're going to have Ken Cromwell. Right now he's in the back. He's in the back studio in the green room. He's got noise-canceling headphones on. He cannot hear any of the responses here. We're going to offer Ken Cromwell to come out to see if he can beat the Creasel at pinball password. Let's see. Dennis, I hope you got your A game because Krami's going to bring the pain on you. The first pinball password is Schrodinger's Cash.
    82:00
    This is a deep cut. This is tough. Yep, pass. I don't know it. Okay. You're going to try to retain four points here, ladies and gentlemen. And I want you guys, listeners, in the car, on the shooter, you guys follow along and try to see if you can stump or beat the Creasel. Submit your total points in to the pinball network at gmail.com. The second pinball password, Mr. Creasle, is...
    82:24
    Train. So we got Schrodinger's, Cash, and Train. Both of them appear somewhere on this machine, and they're associated in some way, shape, or form. Listeners at home, do you know what that second clue, what this game is? I'm going to go with Cactus Canyon. Cactus Canyon is your final answer? Yes.
    82:53
    I should have went for the third hint because that is wrong. Oh, no. Schrodinger's Cache, Train. The third hint for the listeners at home was Quantum.
    83:05
    Quantum, Train, and Schrodinger's Cache. Oh, so it's dialed in. Dialed in is correct. Okay, wow. Dialed in. Yeah, well, cash, I started thinking like a cash in a mine, and that's kind of where I – I would have went Cactus Canyon too on that one. Well, it was the wrong way to go. Okay. But I didn't want to lose all my points, and then you start saying I'm playing it too safe when I wait too long. So there's a lot of pressure. We'll see if the next contestant, King Cromwell, can do better, but we're starting off with a goose egg here. Let's move on to the next game and the next password.
    83:37
    The next password is broker. broker pass ok he's going to pass to the second pinball password listeners at home if you guessed and you come up to be wrong that's a zero be the smart one like Dennis pass when you need to the second pinball password is ronin first password was broker the second ronin I'll have to pass again. It's not registering anything. Okay. Maybe the third pinball password for this title will. The third password is sanctuary.
    84:25
    Broker Ronin Sanctuary. Ooh, we're stumping the crease of the day. Don't want to guess and get it wrong. Yeah. Pass again. We're going to the fourth pinball password, and that is Magnaforce.
    84:42
    Still tough. Broker, Ronin, Sanctuary, Magnaforce. Pass. And the fifth and final pinball password for this item is Orb. Guardians of the Galaxy. Wow. Guardians of the Galaxy is correct. Okay, Ronin makes sense to me now. I just couldn't get past Feudal Japan, and I was.
    85:06
    I couldn't, and I'm saying my mind was in a totally different place. Hey, but you know what? You didn't goose egg it. You got a point there. Let's move on to the next one. The next pinball password is Redline Mania.
    85:22
    The getaway high speed, too. Is that your final? Yes. That's correct. Nicely done. Okay. So he's coming back now. Uppercut. Right to the jail. Nicely done. Okay. So, listeners at home, did you guys get Redline Mania? The other one was going to be Shift Gears and Supercharger. The next item includes the password Star Warp.
    85:49
    Star Warp. Deep diving. I have to pass. We're going to go to the second password. Ladies and gentlemen, the second password is Chimes.
    86:03
    Pass. And the third password is 1950s. Oh, my God. Star Warp Chimes, 1950s. Time Machine. That's right. Nicely done. Okay. What triggered you?
    86:24
    1950s. At first, I wanted to think that the game was from the 50s, and I thought, no, no, no. So I'd heard of the Star Warp before. I've played the game, but I just... So it finally came back together.
    86:36
    Nicely done. Did you guys slip up at home? Did you say Nippet? Or did you say Freedom? Or whatever the hell it is. Those are from the 70s. I don't know. I know you don't. Woodrail? I don't know. What games were in the 50s? Can you even name a game in the 50s? Scoreboard. God, I don't know how you did that. All right, the final item in Pinball Password. This is a fun game. I'm glad I'm on this side rather than the contestant side.
    87:05
    Password is Radio Riot. Damn, that's tough. Radio Riot. Yeah, pass. He's passing. You know, I would be very... Listeners, if you guys got it from Radio Riot alone, email us in. I want to know. And I want to know your total scores here. We're going to pass to the second password in this item. It is Albuquerque.
    87:31
    Radio Riot and Albuquerque. I'll pass again. But you think you know what it is, right? I think I do, yeah. The third password for this item is Roadbusters.
    87:44
    Radio Riot, Albuquerque, and Roadbusters. Maybe I don't know it. I'm still leaning towards it. I'm going to pass again, then. Oh, I'm so happy you got to this fourth one because I was just waiting and hoping to scream out the next password, which is Friday.
    88:04
    Oh, God. Roadshow. Okay. I'm glad I stalled. I couldn't remember if Albuquerque was in Roadshow. Yeah. It is one of the cities. Radio Riot is a mini motor, a hurry up that you can start that also has a plastic that says hit this for Radio Riot to start. And then Roadbusters is seen several times on the machine. I think Red herself wears a hat that says Roadbusters, and it's on the play field as well.
    88:34
    I just wanted a chance to sing a song to you. Have a little dream, I've dreamed about you. There's been a lot of inside complaints about you singing.
    88:44
    Who doesn't like Miss Carter? Come on. Do you like that song? Not really. I love that song. I'm getting tired.
    88:53
    Hit them in his mouth. Oh. Must be a diode out. Your bulldozer's not coming up there.
    89:03
    That's one of the less good super pins. Really? Yeah, I don't like Roadshow. Give me it over Demolition Man any day. No. Give me it over Judge Dredd any day. I might take it over Judge Dredd. Okay. I need to think about that. Judge Dredd feels so clunky to me. Mmm. Mostly Missing Twilight Zone. Yeah, Twilight's better than Roadshow.
    89:29
    Yes. Now, Roadshow's better than Popeye. No. Yeah. Popeye's the worst super pin, so. So, points totaling up. Remember, contestants out there, five points possible for each. Passing to each subsequent password gives you minus one. Unless you botch it all together and get it wrong, that's zero. so totaling up 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 is the possible total Dennis Creasel on this edition of the Pinball Shows Pinball Password received 11 that's not very good at all it's not like you it's almost like you're stressed at work or something maybe I just played it too safe alright Dennis 11 out of 25 possible points you left the window wide open hell the screen doors busted through for Ken Cromwell to defeat you. Let's have Ken Cromwell exit Green Room and come onto the stage now to play a little Pinball Password. How's it going, Cromwell? Hey, Zach, how are you? It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me. And so that the audience feels rest assured, you did not hear any of the items on this week's Pinball Password. Is that correct? No, because I was not even present during the recording. That doesn't help, Lele. You're supposed to be in the back room. It was even more security than the pinball noise-canceling headphones. I legitimately wasn't even on the call. Okay, so we're going to go over the following with you. And for the audience, I'm going to jump right into it since you heard Dennis's. All right, so your first pinball password is Schrodinger's Cash. You know how to play this game. So Schrodinger's Cash, Schrodinger's Cash. Does that ring a bell?
    91:13
    Anything there? No, man. That's a tough one. It's a tough one. The next pinball password is train.
    91:21
    Train. Like when I think of trains, I think ACDC has train. I don't remember Schrodinger's cash. Oh, yeah, that's true.
    91:30
    I'm going to pass one more time and then maybe I'll go back to ACDC. Third one. Keep in mind, Dennis. No, I'm not going to tell you what Dennis got on this one because that would be an edge for you.
    91:41
    Quantum. Quantum is the third password. Quantum. Remember the show Quantum Leap? Remember that? That was a good show. I do know the show Quantum Leap. With Quantum and Trains, I would go Dialed In. Ooh, final?
    91:56
    Yeah, final answer. That's right. Nicely done. Yes. Dialed In. And believe it or not, Dennis Creasel got a zero on that one. He said Cactus Canyon. Well, Cactus Canyon was another one with the train. Like when I was thinking of games with trains, it was ACDC Cactus Canyon. I didn't think about Dialed In at all. But Quantum, I mean, you've got the Quantum Theater, the Quantum City. Oh, boy. So that was the giveaway. Right now, Ken Cromwell 3, Dennis Creasel, Goose Egg. Here we go. Okay. Feeling good. We're going to go with the pinball password of Broker.
    92:33
    Broker. You know how the game works, Ken. When you hear Broker, is there anything that rings a bell when it comes to? Yes. Oh. Yes. Whoa. So now, as a reminder, maybe you don't know how this game works. If you're answering correctly, you get zero or you could pass. I understand. I'm going to go out on a limb here and see if I can just snap it because I can make up these points on my next few opportunities. But I'm going to go with Monopoly.
    93:00
    Final entry? It is my final entry. For legal reasons and IP reasons, I can't use final entry. You're concerned about that now, huh? I play all this music. I know. It's pretty sure password's not coming after you. So pretty sure Kim Cromwell might not know how to play this game because it's a zero. No, wrong. It's a zero. Okay, well. Broker. I think of real estate. Broker and deals. When I think of real estate, I think of properties. When I think of properties, I think of monopolies. Let me at least give you, the second one was Ronin. Does that ring a bell? Ronin? Ronin, no. Broker, Ronin, Sanctuary? I'm thinking of sanctums, not sanctuaries. Nope. Not ringing a bell. Is yours dirty? Okay. Magnaforce?
    93:46
    Magnaforce? Orb? Any of this do anything for you? Orb? No. Orb. Orb multiball? Yeah, multiball. A couple pins come to mind.
    93:57
    Well, not multiball. Orb multiball. Why am I getting frustrated with you, King? I don't know, man. It's like, this game sucks. Like, get me off this show. The host is an asshole. The host is getting aggressive with me. Aren't you supposed to take pleasure in stumping me instead of getting all pissed off that I'm not getting your clues? Or do you benefit by giving me the clues? Because you could give better clues, maybe. No, none of this sounds even remotely familiar. If it's not Monopoly, what is it? In this one, you got a zero. Dennis got a one with Guardians of the Galaxy. Okay. All right. Well, that makes sense that I didn't understand. I have very limited time on Guardians and only on a pro, and it hasn't been for probably over a year since I played it. And I've never seen the Guardians of the Galaxy movies. None of them. So that's not my best effort they're showing, I should say. Wow. Like I said, Groot, Star-Lord, and Rocket. I would have gotten Groot. Everybody knows Groot. Rocket might have probably not helped me.
    94:52
    Let's move on to the next pinball password. Let's go down to the next one. I can't wait. Okay, so after item number two, Dennis Creasel won, Ken Cromwell three. Still got that commanding lead there, Ken.
    95:04
    Yeah, we're not really killing this game, myself and Dennis. They're tough. I make them tough a little bit. All right. See what we can do on this next one. The next item, your first pinball password is redlinemania.
    95:19
    Redlinemania. Let it sink. Let it fester a little bit. Redline. I'm thinking like racing. I'm thinking RPMs.
    95:31
    Redlining, but I'm going to pass. Okay. There's a lot of different... That's where I'm thinking redline. Let's see. Let's hear it go. I'm going to pass. Okay. He's passing. On to the second password for this item is shift gears. Oh, okay. So now I'm thinking... You were on the right track there. Oh, track. Look at that. Hey. Redline, mania, and shift gears.
    95:56
    Thinking a little high speed getaway. Okay. I don't know... You're thinking that. I'm going to pass one more time and just see, because there are more car games. You've got Corvette. You've got Mustang. Okay, all right. So let's see where we're going. We've got High Speed, regular High Speed. Yeah, High Speed and High Speed 2 Getaway. Yeah. Let's go to the third pinball password, which is Supercharger.
    96:19
    Okay, so the Supercharger. Again, I think I would go Getaway. Okay, final? Yeah. That's right. That is right. Very good. So you got three points there. Now I will say that Dennis Creasel got five. Yeah. Red Line Mania got it. I did not want to be too hasty. And I was playing with a little bit of a lead there, so I thought I could afford to be a little bit more conservative on my approach. And that's fine because now, ladies and gentlemen, we are tied at six apiece for these gentlemen in this week's pinball password. Nice, nice. All right. Item number four, Ken Crum. Well, your password is Star Warp.
    97:05
    Kind of a deep cut here. Star Warp. Okay, you think of warps, you think of Star Trek, you think of stars. It's in space. I'm going to pass. He's going to pass here. The second password is Chimes.
    97:19
    Chimes. Star Warp and Chimes. Now that could be going into chimes, meaning sound. It could. Yes, it could. I'm going to pass again. Okay, we're going to go third password is 1950s. So now you could be going into EMs or you could be going with a pinball machine that's themed from the 1950s that has all these things. Maybe there's a mode that activates chimes.
    97:50
    Okay. I like this open thought here. Well, I have to think out loud. I'm not allowed to do that with people in the house.
    97:59
    Everyone's gone. I can talk to myself. I'm still not confident enough to get this. I'm going to pass again. Okay, so you're passing. You're joined on to the fourth password. Fourth password is 1960s.
    98:12
    So we've got Star Warp, Chimes, 1950s, 1960s. star war of china's 1950s 1960s was there like a follow-up from a game from the 50s to the 60s um i'm gonna have to pass one more time yeah i'm gonna have to pass one more time i'm gonna have to pass one more time and your fourth pinball password is the tag phrase where you go back in time.
    98:48
    See, I'm mad because right in the beginning when I... Was Chimes like the second clue? And I'm like, yeah, it might be activating Chimes during a mode. And it was because I was thinking of this game. You know what it is, don't you? Yeah, and I'm mad at myself that I didn't... Sorry for laughing there. It's Time Machine. It is Time Machine. Well, you've got... You still... What year was Time Machine? Was it like 85, 86? 88. Dead East, 88. 88, yeah. You don't see them a lot, but they are fun to play. They really are. It's a good game. It is. Well, again, am I limited time on that game? I'm noticing I've got limited time on too many games. I've got to get back out and actually play pinball at shows instead of talking. No, it's not as fun. Nah, it is what it is. All right. After item number four, we're going into our final round here on the pinball show's pinball password. and the scores are Ken Cromwell, 7 Dennis Creasel, 9 Took a little bit of a lead there but not insurmountable. Okay. Is this the last one, right? This is the last one. This is for all the marbles. Okay. Now if Dennis got a 5 if Dennis got a 4 then you can't beat him. But if he tanked you still got it. The final round of pinball passwords your pinball password is Radio Riot. Oh, these are tough. Radio Riot? Radio Riot.
    100:18
    Radio Riot. I am going to pass. Okay. Okay, audiences, they're biting their nails right now, Ken. Because I will say, you're still in it.
    100:31
    Well, that's good. This isn't all for nothing. It may come down to this, though. Your second password is Albuquerque.
    100:42
    Albuquerque? Radio Riot and Albuquerque. Radio Riot, that sounds like it's familiar to me. I mean, obviously it's either something on the game or a mode in the game or something that would be prominent in the game. Well, hence the password. But Albuquerque is not really. We know that the first passwords themselves are more difficult. But they are on the game. I think Albuquerque. I'm thinking like Bugs Bunny because I should have taken that right turn at Albuquerque. But Radio Riot, I don't recall. Is Albuquerque on Bugs Bunny game?
    101:18
    I'm passing because I'm not sure. And I'm going to have to probably just make a guess regardless on this next one because I don't know where I'm at. Unless I already lost, in which case that's fine.
    101:30
    Hey, it's going to wrap up the Pinball Show episode four. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. Your next password is RoadBusters.
    101:37
    Roadshow. Final? Yes, it's Roadshow. Ladies and gentlemen, that is correct. If he would have got it on the second password, he would have tied Dennis Creasel, bringing home second place today on the pinball show's pinball password. Oh, so I finished in second. Damn it. Yeah, because he got two points on that one, and you got three points on that one. Yeah, okay, okay. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. He got 11 points. You're at 7, 8, 9, 10. Yeah, 10 to 11 is the final rank. So our combined point total doesn't even come close to 25 points. Man, you know what? Good job, because those clues were just enough to make me realize that I don't know half of what I think I know about pinball. So thank you.
    102:25
    Thank you, Zach. That's going to wrap up episode number four of the Pinball Show. Zach, I appreciate my nine-minute cameo on this episode. It was great. in here uh if you have not checked us out listeners didn't know they thought you were being patient just that's right that's right this might be one of the better performing episodes with me talking for nine minutes so at least we can get some analytics based on my inclusion or on in all fairness i was going to say if you've not checked us out the pinball network is kind of almost anywhere you can catch us on instagram you can catch us on youtube we got some videos actually some new people coming in to uh provide some videos on the YouTube front. Obviously, we've got a Twitch channel, which is Pinball Network. Come find us streaming there and all of our streaming affiliates. And then on this channel here, our podcatching apps can catch us at the Pinball Network. And we've got some new content coming up this week, including Orbital Albert, top three coming back this week. My apologies to Orby for getting his episode up a little bit later than intended. There was just a weird, weird week. So it's nice to be back in the fold, in the thick of things, and looking forward to the next week of Pinball. For those of you who want to correspond with Dennis Creasel, how can they catch you, Dennis? I don't think anyone needs to write in to me, Zach. Leave me alone. Someone on Pinside called me the curmudgeon.
    103:45
    No. Yes. The curmudgeon. Look, you get so many positive attributes on Pinside, it makes me sick. I think they meant it nice, too. That's the sad part.
    103:57
    They can always reach out at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com. I monitor that pretty well. if they want to send an email, talk about anything. They can always write into the pinball network at gmail.com. You can catch me at the pinball network at gmail.com or over at straight down the middle of pinball show. I don't even know if we're recording. More to be honest. SDTMPinball at gmail.com or buy a brand new pinball machine. If you want a stern, got it. You want a jersey jack, got it. American pinball, got you covered. CGC, got you. Oh, you want, you get a basement. Oh, we got you covered. Escalator, stair climbing, hand trucks. Oh, I thought you were offering to like fixed foundations. Well, no. I don't roll up my sleeves, but usually just to get a pinball machine up or down from a set of staircases. I can just see it though. Do you have a leaky water basement? Are you flooding out? Flooding out, got you covered. No, we don't have you covered for that. Mudjacking specialists. And you know what? This is your old sign right now. Now, if you have not insured your large collection of pinball machines, do that now. That would be very smart.
    105:05
    That's just a public service announcement right there. You can also catch me at the Louisville Arcade and Pinball Expo. That's this weekend, you guys. Make the haul. It's going to be a lot of fun, and we're all going to be hanging out. Minus Dennis Creasel because he's too busy. I'm way too busy.
    105:23
    TPF's going to be hard enough. So until next week, for Dennis Creasel and Zach Menne, practice safe pinball and marmot up that's like a gremlin that's horrible and don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball so long everybody i had both cgc and american pinball ask if i wanted to do voice work in their next game what i'm just kidding man my phone never rang not once i always love the weasel families they're interesting breeds wait did you own ferrets I did own a ferret I stole a ferret once from a pet store you stole a ferret I did yeah when I was a kid yeah if I was a teenager it was my delinquency phase stole a ferret gave it a good home so they didn't have to euthanize it we're just lumping all of our past discussions into one is that why there's only been one episode of TPN midweek Are we going to rename that to TPN Mid-Month? Because it sure doesn't feel like it happens very much.
    106:48
    Big wigs. You're a big wig. I'm not like a tiny wig. I'm like one of them earwigs from Rathacon. If you let me into your ear, then you'll start thinking and you'll be all curmudgeonly like me. You'll be like, I shouldn't have to be buying all these new games. They're expensive. You are hilarious to people that have that deep a reference point. man you go deep there you've said that in a way that makes it sound like you haven't seen wrath of khan um uh poof oh dear oh dear chris pine one no i'm afraid not we're talking a little bit older i don't know to me the more contemporary version is better than anything that i could imagine that Wrath of Khan did back in the 70s or whenever that came out. Well, listeners, if you'd like to write in to thepinballnetwork at gmail.com and tell Zach about Wrath of Khan. Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan. That's Khan. Where he ended up putting it in the papanon of Star Trek movies. Let him know. He's always willing to learn. Oh, man. Into Darkness with Khan. Oh, that doesn't get you going. That is greatness. Benedict Cumberbatch. So good. Who's the other guy that played Colin? He looked like Rod Stewart. Does he not look like Rod Stewart? No, no, he does. That's why I was laughing.
    108:19
    Ricardo Montalban is who played him in the original film. 1982, Star Trek II. Wake up, Kirky. I think I've got something to say to you.