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Great British Pinball Podcast Episode 10.2 - TPF Special

The Great British Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 48m·analyzed·Apr 19, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

TPF recap: UK players praise new games, criticize pricing, highlight Turner Pinball's turnaround and JJP's Elton John.

Summary

The Great British Pinball Podcast hosts Scott Rundell and Neil McRae conduct a detailed recap of the Texas Pinball Festival with guests Colin MacAlpine and Paul. The episode covers new game impressions (Pulp Fiction, Jaws, Labyrinth, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Princess Bride, Ninja Eclipse, Elton John), pricing frustrations in the UK market particularly around ElectroCoin's distributor margins, manufacturing quality comparisons between Stern and newer builders like Spooky and Turner Pinball, and standout games of the show including Elton John (Game of the Show) and Jaws (Surprise of the Show).

Key Claims

  • ElectroCoin adds approximately £2,000 markup on top of US pricing for UK distribution of Stern machines

    medium confidence · Neil McRae discussing distributor margin disparities between UK and US markets; acknowledged as belief based on math rather than stated fact

  • Premium pinball machines in the UK are priced around £10,000-£12,000, making them economically unviable for UK collectors

    high confidence · Colin MacAlpine and Neil McRae discussing UK pricing; Colin stated he is 'out' at £10,000+ premiums

  • Texas Pinball Festival 2025 was held during Texas Spring Break week, making it quieter than previous years

    high confidence · Neil McRae confirmed this scheduling coincidence and heard from multiple show vendors

  • Turner Pinball Ninja Eclipse was perceived as a joke at Chicago six months prior but has been completely redesigned and improved

    high confidence · Neil McRae witnessed both iterations; described as major turnaround in build quality and cabinet engineering

  • JJP Elton John fixes flipper responsiveness issues previously present in Guns N' Roses

    medium confidence · Neil McRae and Colin MacAlpine comparing flipper feel between games; described as 'night and day different'

  • Stern Jaws Pro lacks drop targets present in Premium version, making it feel 'barren' by comparison

    high confidence · Colin MacAlpine's detailed gameplay observations; initially critical, then reconsidered after playing Premium

  • Bally/Williams had 50% of their sales come from overseas markets historically

    medium confidence · Scott Rundell citing a historical fact he read; used to argue market exists outside US

  • JJP Elton John is priced at $13,000 USD for the Platinum Edition

    high confidence · Colin MacAlpine and Neil McRae discussing US pricing of the game

  • Spooky Pinball games (Labyrinth, Texas Chainsaw Massacre) are built to appeal to both casual/family and hardcore player audiences

Notable Quotes

  • “Be careful what you wish for when you meet your heroes.”

    Unnamed forum member (referenced by Colin MacAlpine) @ early in Colin's summary — Reflects pre-show anxiety about meeting pinball design legends; Colin's subsequent response emphasizes all designers were humble and approachable

  • “What you get off a drop target, can it be reproduced on these stand-up targets? All day for me: drop targets. That's one of my favourite things in pinball.”

    Colin MacAlpine @ mid-episode during Jaws discussion — Core design preference driving his initial Jaws Pro critique; illustrates collector priorities around mechanical feel

  • “You're just pricing yourself out of the market in the UK.”

    Colin MacAlpine @ pricing discussion segment — Direct quote from conversation with Stern representatives about UK pricing unviability

  • “We're not out to make vast amounts of monies for shareholders.”

    Spooky Pinball representative (referenced by Colin MacAlpine) @ Spooky games discussion — Reflects Spooky's stated business philosophy and community perception as passionate, non-corporate manufacturer

  • “It felt like one of the best builds in my mind. Quality pins, yeah?”

    Neil McRae @ Turner Pinball Ninja Eclipse discussion — Quantifies the dramatic quality improvement Turner Pinball achieved between Chicago and TPF

  • “Game of the Show. I'll tell you why, and it wouldn't have been Game of the Show for everybody. But I was surprised all the lads I was with loved the game.”

    Colin MacAlpine @ Elton John game discussion — Elton John designated as Colin's standout game despite acknowledging polarizing theme choice

  • “If you haven't got an order from Carl, he's been playing games.”

    Neil McRae @ end of episode — Humorous note that Carl (likely a listener/operator) has apparently stopped working to play Jaws Pro

  • “The way the ball reflects off a stand-up target next to a drop target? All day for me: drop targets.”

Entities

Colin MacAlpinepersonNeil McRaepersonScott RundellpersonPaulpersonSteve RitchiepersonMark RitchiepersonJohn Borgperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival 2025 held during Texas Spring Break week, resulting in quieter attendance than previous years; VIP early access (50 tickets, 2-3 hours early) allowed insider play-testing of new machines including 8 Pulp Fictions, ~20 Jaws units, multiple Spooky and Turner Pinball machines

    high · Neil McRae confirmed scheduling impact and reported feedback from multiple vendors about reduced attendance; described queue times and availability for play-testing as favorable despite lower crowds

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern Pro versions criticized for removing drop targets and other mechanical features to reduce complexity/maintenance, creating perceived quality gap versus Premium versions; specifically Jaws Pro described as 'barren'

    high · Colin MacAlpine's detailed critique of Jaws Pro vs. Premium; discussion of drop target reliability trade-offs; similar concerns raised about Venom Pro

  • $

    market_signal: UK pinball market experiencing significant pricing pressure from ElectroCoin distributor margins estimated at ~£2,000 per machine, pushing retail prices to £10,000-£12,000+ and driving longtime collectors out of the market

    high · Colin MacAlpine stated he is 'out' at £10,000+ premiums; Neil McRae estimated ElectroCoin markup based on US comparative math; both discussed shift from regular purchasing to selective acquisition

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Turner Pinball underwent major cabinet redesign and game improvements between Chicago (6 months prior) and TPF, transforming public perception from negative/joke status to positive reception for engineering quality and build standards

    high · Neil McRae witnessed both iterations; described Chicago version as 'seen as a bit of a joke' and TPF version as 'one of the best builds'; noted addition of cabinet improvements, LCD enhancements, and playfield flow

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.327

0:00
Welcome to the Great British Pinball Podcast and here are your hosts Scott Rundell and Neil McRae. Welcome everybody, pinball players of the world. this is kind of a part two or a special, let's call it a special all about Texas Pinball Festival as you remember kind of episode nine part one and two, we kind of did an intro with Colin and Paul who've kindly joined us again and we're just going to let basically folks talk, I'm always overjoyed to be joined by my partner in crime Scott Rundle, thank you very much and we're joined by Paul and Colin and I've already gone off script and I'm going to what we're going to do is we're going to just talk you know pinball and a few of the stuff that we did I'm going to go direct to Colin and just let him kind of do a bit of a brain dump on us all and the rest of us will chip in appropriately or inappropriately as we think. So, Colin, over to you.
1:29
Hi, all. So, a few thoughts on Texas. First off, just to sum it all up, it was an absolute hoot and an awesome experience. I've never been to Texas. I've been everywhere in America just about, but I found it a fantastic, crazy place, full of gun crazy taxi drivers gun crazy pin four members we've come to a new name Dangerous Dave, I'll come up on that one so what can I say right from the very off good bunch of lads, good group we all gelled well and I got to know people I hadn't met in person a lot better than I previously known them just over the phone and stuff so the day of Texas the festival itself, I'll try and kick this short, somebody's bright spot idea was to try and sneak in four hours early. And I said, well, I'm up for some of that. I'll have some of that. We went round the back, and I think it was about six of us, wandered in, pretending we were helping this set up to be visited by all the machines were on play. So I walked up, and there was eight Pulp Fictions. I'd never played the game, so I just walked straight up, played the game, I could play it as long as I wanted and I thought right I'm going to jump round all the pins quick as I can we pretty much split up but then I started to get a bit star struck I bumped into Carrie Hardy lovely lovely chap everyone by the way, everybody who I've bumped into has the list longer than me arm and I've missed some out but you know I had Mark Ritchie, John Borg Gomez Carrie Hardy I've mentioned Seth Davis, Chris Branchie David Fix and someone we'll call him the deleted member of the forum said to me, be careful what you wish for when you meet your heroes. Can I just say I was blown away by each and every one of them. They had time to talk, they took time out, they weren't interested in me as much as I was interested in them.

medium confidence · Colin MacAlpine's interpretation of design philosophy; discussing why horror themes work for multiple markets

  • Stern games are pricing UK collectors out of the market despite their quality and features

    high confidence · Colin MacAlpine reported discussing this directly with Seth Davis and Gomez at TPF; Gomez responded 'this has been addressed'

    • Colin MacAlpine @ Jaws design critique — Articulates specific mechanical preference driving Pro vs Premium assessment

  • “This is a different generation, honestly. If they continue making their pains like that, it's just the price.”

    Neil McRae @ JJP Elton John quality discussion — Praises JJP's new flipper engineering while acknowledging pricing as remaining barrier

  • “I was intending getting it to sell it... But I set it up yesterday, and I couldn't get off it.”

    Colin MacAlpine @ Jaws Pro acquisition disclosure — Demonstrates Jaws Pro's gameplay quality winning over skeptical operator/collector

    • Kerry Hardy
    person
    Gomezperson
    Seth Davisperson
    Rob Turnerperson
    ElectroCoincompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinball (JJP)company
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Turner Pinballcompany
    Pulp Fictiongame
    Jawsgame
    Labyrinthgame
    Texas Chainsaw Massacregame
    Elton Johngame
    Princess Bridegame
    Ninja Eclipsegame
    Venomgame
    Looney Tunesgame
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky Pinball deliberately designing games to appeal to multiple market segments (e.g., Texas Chainsaw Massacre targeting both horror and family audiences) rather than single-niche targeting

    medium · Colin MacAlpine's analysis: 'They bring this one pin out and then they target for two audiences. Why not? Why not target for a family? Why not target for the horror family?'

  • ?

    product_launch: JJP's Elton John designated as Colin MacAlpine's Game of the Show at TPF 2025; noted as surprise standout despite Elton John IP potentially being polarizing

    high · Colin stated 'that was Game of the Show' and elaborated on Franchi's artwork, Steve Ritchie's design, and mode design as standouts; noted multiple attendees purchased or are considering purchase

  • ?

    product_concern: JJP Elton John priced at $13,000 USD (Platinum Edition); despite critical praise for design quality, price remains barrier to ownership for collectors even in US market

    high · Colin: 'I could see myself owning that game if it was a lot cheaper'; pricing acknowledged as unviable barrier despite game quality

  • ?

    design_innovation: JJP Elton John implements improved flipper responsiveness/engineering compared to prior JJP title Guns N' Roses; described as 'night and day different' with elimination of previous 'limp noodles' feel

    medium · Neil McRae: 'There's no question that they have fixed any sort of flipper BS in that game'; direct comparison to Guns N' Roses flipper weakness in prior JJP game

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Colin MacAlpine's opinion on Stern Jaws reversed during festival; initial Pro version critique about missing drop targets reversed after extended play on Premium version, becoming Surprise of the Show

    high · Colin initial assessment 'meh' and 'brutal', walked away after first plays; by day three 'blew me away'; final assessment as Surprise of the Show despite not highest-ranked game

  • ?

    business_signal: Turner Pinball responded to negative Chicago reception by completely redesigning cabinet and gameplay systems, returning to market 6 months later with substantially improved product receiving positive reception

    high · Neil McRae: 'Fair play to him, right? He took all of that feedback and completely redesigned the entire cabinet and brought it back six months later'; described as impressive industry responsiveness

  • $

    market_signal: Strong demand for physical merchandise at TPF including Spooky Pinball playfield dent-and-scratch sales ($350/playfield), art pieces, and pin armor accessories; attendees purchased multiple items and required additional luggage for transport

    high · Colin described hotel room 'piled up like a Christmas morning to the ceiling'; attendees purchased multiple sets and incurred excess baggage fees

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: JJP changed naming convention from 'Limited Edition' to 'Platinum Edition' for Elton John Platinum tier, acknowledging that LE naming is misleading for machines with high production volumes

    medium · Colin: 'I'm glad they've changed the name because LE, for a game that sells in the South... It's not limited. It's not limited, right.'

    • 3:40
    And of course I've got to mention the unbelievable Steve Ritchie, my biggest hero of all time, first time I met that guy, I went back and talked to him a couple of times, he can talk as much as me more I think what a lovely bloke, he's a little deaf so I found myself shouting in his ear a lot but I guess that's all of the years of crazy mind blowing music and pinballs for you so by the time the show actually opened, I'd had me fill in all the new machines.
    4:17
    And I was quite impressed with a number of titles. Do you want me to give the end of the show away, or should we leave that for later? I'll tell you what I'd like to hear, Cole, is your first impressions. So what was your first impression of Pulp Fiction like?
    4:32
    Because it's been hyped up so much for me, personally, I think it didn't have that wow factor for me, I'm being totally honest there, but that changes as the show went on the third day, it really did blow me away, but it wasn't me gaming the show so the first game I had on it was like, meh I had another game pretty brutal, walked away from it, jumped on to I forget, I think it was Jaws to be honest which I try and avoid this subject It was a game I really wanted to hit with a vengeance. Okay. You know, I was dissing two games over the past six months. I've got to get this out of the way because Neil's going to do it anyway. This is glorious.
    5:22
    But as soon as Vanden was dropped, I was like, my God, what have they done? They've stripped this thing out, which they kind of have with a pro, is my opinion. Okay.
    5:33
    And I thought the same of Jaws, very similar to Jaws. I've took that player feeling out drop targets, I love drop targets for revenge, it has that kinetic feel what you get off a drop target can it be reproduced on these stand-up targets the way the ball reflects off a stand-up target next to a drop target all day for me, drop targets that's one of the big things about premiums and pros you love to bash stuff out of the way yeah it's kind of a weird feeling Drop target is one of my favourite things in pinball And a must And it really is a must It's a shame that they're so unreliable That's the reason why I think on the pros They don't have them because they have a tendency to break That's my experience So on sight I get that On sight I want nothing that breaks So don't put anything in it And that was my view of Jaws From the very offset It's just a barren sea With nothing there I took all that back I take it all back Really? I took the premium And I was like Wow All of us were wow And we were playing four player games On the premium And I've got to be honest I never touched a pro I was like That's not for me Why do you think Not just the drop targets Was it the upper play field? Was there more to it? I like to see something for your money I'm all for the bling I'm an L.E. person I've dropped out of that because of the cost I've kind of dropped out the premiums because of the cost and I had a word with Seth Davis I chatted with him I actually said we struggle over in the UK we get hit by Electrocoin and then we get hit by our distributors so we get like a double whammy and he says yes I've heard this a lot which was interesting and I said this to Gomez as well I turned around and said you know, I bought, you don't know the amount of money I've spent with Stern on L.E.S. And, you know, my favourite games, I've still got five or six Stern games. But now I'm out of my own box. You're just pricing yourself out in the market in the U.K. And he says, this has been addressed. Now, I don't know what that means, or if it's just to make me feel a little better. We will see. I don't know. No idea. So maybe, do you think that will be in the next title release that he means? or does he think? No, I think they're getting a lot of bleeding hearts, basically. Saying the same thing as me. You know, you can love pinball, but there comes a time when it just becomes unviable to buy a new one box when they're £12,000.
    8:16
    I have no idea what price the premium is. £11,000? £10,000? I don't know. I get a marker of £10,000 a premium and I'm out. yeah i mean absolutely it's not so first of all i think a few of you said it to them i'm really glad you did that because i've been buying this drum for a while right and and um you know the way i believe i don't know this for sure i've got no facts or anything but i believe electrocoin interject a margin that no other distributor in the world interjects i just believe it, right?
    8:56
    Because when you do the maths, and I've imported a few games from the US, and even when you add VAT, even if you airship it, the maths don't add up to what the retailers here have to sell for. So, you know, there is something, you know, not right. And I think it's fair to say ElectroCoin, you know, if you compare it to the US distributors, which you guys would have got a taste of in Texas, you know they're not pinball people they're you know Electrocoin are these tickets and fruit machine type guys right so they're not part of the market so I don't think they really genuinely even though they're the main distributor for Stern who's probably the biggest seller of pinball machines in the UK I really don't think they understand the UK pinball market at all John who runs it he's a really nice guy I've met him many times and a few folks in his family and Chris that runs the kind of parts and warranty bit, they're all lovely people but they're just not connected to the market and I think that's the issue. So anything you can chuck two grand on or whatever their markup is, my sense is it's not far from that and that's okay and we look around the world and say, well hold on a minute, we're a million miles away from, don't get me wrong, even without that prices are still high, I would suggest.
    10:24
    But I think it's good. It would go a bit better, wouldn't it, if the margins were adjusted? Well, I think it's, look, if Electrocoin feel they need to charge that to survive or to make it worthwhile in selling pinball machines, then Stern need to do something to adjust. Which happens in every other industry in the world, frankly. I mean, I read an interesting facts about and i'm sorry cole we'll come back to you really quickly but one thing i did find interesting back in the bally williams days 50 of their sales were overseas yeah so i'm not saying that's the case now because it might not well be but it feels like obviously there is a market for pimple outside of america so i would have thought the same thing's happening in europe right the thing is though people are still buying them aren't they and i and i thought after Venom I thought oh hang on, that's got to be a wake up call but then Jaws I'm just looking at this week with them landing in the UK and there's a lot more Jaws being sold than I'd realised and that's fantastic and it's a worthy game of it which we'll come back to I'm sure but if people keep buying it at the prices it does just reinforce the idea that they can sell at that price so I don't know how many you know it would be interesting to know a graph of what the drop off is if there is one but if we keep buying they're not going to change anything yeah I mean let's not focus too much on this topic because I think everyone I mean I'll be honest here as much as it frustrates me about the pricing it feels like all we talk about in this show right now is pricing but I do feel that you know there are and I look to Pinball Info as an example right where I've been on that forum I guess roughly 8 years, 7-8 years now right I'll get my gold badge if I wasn't banned but the sense I get is there's loads of people who used to buy lots of games back then that simply don't buy them but they've stopped buying them but unfortunately for everyone who stopped buying again two people have turned up to start buying them myself included and i think paul and scott you're part of that you've been around and it's a bit longer than all of us i think so that's the challenge it's like where does where does the the demand in terms of units stop such that the pricing then starts to tail off because right now what i think stern and all the pinball manufacturers look at is this this kind of up and to the left, or sorry, up and to the right. And if you were them, what would you do? You'd like, well, you know, and we're not seeing any of the climbing sails, let's... It is. I mean, and look, you know, at the end of the day, you know, not just, and I think, you know, other people, I think JGP are worse in some respects. But also, I look at, and Scott and I were talking about this on the last podcast, you know, barrels of fun could have made a statement about pricing and they haven't. They've come in at the premium price, give or take, right?
    13:52
    Although you might argue there's more on the playfield and the game's got more in it. You have all those arguments, that's cool. But they could have said actually we're coming in at nine grand for a premium machine, but they're much closer to premium And to me, that signals, actually, to make money, that's what they have to do.
    14:12
    We'll see if that's true. I think subsequent releases will tell me whether or not it was initial start-up costs that had an effect on that current price, or if it is just the trend that they'll continue at that price tag. Colin, keep going. I was going to say, a good starting point to come back on, actually, with Bowser Fun, I imagine you tried Labyrinth when you were there, Colin. What was your thoughts on that? Well, sure. Just quickly back to Jaws, I was blown away by the premium. Really enjoyed it. Then I went round and I visited all the new machines. So I think someone says, what was my initial impression? Well, the biggest show I've attended, Northern Lights had a big one in Manchester, I went to. That was quite big. But Pinfest, generally, our largest show.
    14:58
    The big difference between Pinfest and, I think, the American shows is the older titles I think I played two it was all the new titles that were there and that was the excitement for me, seeing the new stuff playing it for the first time and I wasn't disappointed with much, I'll leave that at that but I did play a labyrinth and I really liked it and I thought it was really well built I think it had some little quirky paths, like a labyrinth I didn't know where the ball was coming from you know,
    15:32
    the gunner was perfect and the guy who programs that, I don't know his name is, but he took time out and I had a big chat with him and I was after the pinball armour and he took me and showed me the armour and stuff. I didn't actually talk about course and stuff. Phil or Bowen?
    15:48
    No, it's Phil. Phil is an awesome guy, he's a great pinball player, I know him from playing in tournaments, really good guy. So Labyrinth was great, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I preferred out of the two with Looney Tunes. Looney Tunes was like psychedelic puke to me. It was just... What was it like on Texas Chainsaw Massacre? Do you think... You know what it is? The models are superb. Of the sculpts, yeah. They're beautiful. You know, I love the way it played, and it didn't... I felt like I was playing two pins. So everybody says, they bring this one pin out, and then they target for two audiences. Why not? Why not target for a family? Why not target for the horror fam? You know, spooky is spooky. They always try to do horror, but I think what they've done is a clever thing. Cover the market. Lovely bunch of guys, man. Them guys are just something else. You should just buy the pins, even if you don't like them. Just cover the guys. He says, we're not out to make vast amounts of monies for shareholders. They've got all the right things, and the passion that comes out of them is unreal. They spent a lot of time with the guys I was with. We spent, you know, we bought playfields. I forget where I got, I got a few bits and bobs of them, but I really enjoyed Texas Chainsaw. I would probably put alongside Labyrinth. I enjoyed that just as good. I wasn't a fan of Looney Tunes for many reasons. We're not going to.
    17:21
    Pulp Fiction got better as we went on. But I literally just went round for three days playing the new stuff. So at Pinfest, you don't get that opportunity amongst... I'm kind of envious of that, Rose. ...Devros Pulp Fictions. Yeah. 20 jaws. I mean, literally 20 pinball jaws. You know, it's crazy. You had three fighters with a new topper on. You know, so you were seeing stuff that you wouldn't see in the UK. That was what I... It was off-the-shelf awesome. It was better than I ever imagined. To the fact where I'm seriously going to Chicago this year but the family, you know, I just can't really justify it. It's not a money thing. It's a family thing, you know. It kind of just goes swarming around the world. Do you think that the four days were enough, or did you think one day would have been enough to do everything at the show?
    18:15
    I think you need a couple of days. I think I was worried I wasn't going to get on anything. You could get on anything, whatever, and there was no way. The longest wait you had was two people in front of you. Let me just come in on that. Texas Fimbo Festival was a week earlier than what it normally is. It was the same week as Texas Spring Break, which is the big holiday in the US.
    18:45
    There's no question, and I heard this from a few folks that were running stands, it was definitely quieter than previous years. no question about it and actually to be honest with you I was happy about that because actually last year I would have thought it was probably a little bit too busy actually Colin talks about sneaking in actually at that point in time there is actually so Texas sell like I think it's 50 VIP tickets that get you in I think 2 or 3 hours before so this was the VIP time that you know if you that you snuck in on. I did, but even when I saw the people coming in, it was still you still didn't have a long wait. I did think you guys got some nice merch though from people like Spooky and that. They were selling signs I think. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean and if you wanted stuff like, I was tempted but I was thinking how do I get my own? So they had play fields and were $350 and beautiful art. You know, Looney Tunes, beautiful art. Texas Chains are beautiful. and they kind of, they were called dent and scratched, I couldn't see anything sorry, any scratches and he actually had a few that weren't clear-coated and they were actually looking nicer than the clear-coated ones so you didn't have the reflection and I think... That's good for wall art as you say that's nice. Yeah, well he bought a couple for wall art and I was saying to these, I mean I could talk three hours about Texas but they bought that much when we went back to the hotel room it was piled up like a Christmas morning to the ceiling and I'm saying where are you putting all this stuff, they had to go out and buy luggage and pay for extra luggage there was a couple of the lads who went first class that will not get onto but you got three bags through first class though, they were putting all this stuff through, knee lads for these pin armor things, you know huge, huge amounts of boxes I was kind of reserved I definitely overdid it I was at the airport swearing, like, you stupid fucking idiot. Excuse my language. But it was painful. And actually, it was worse at the other end. Because it all comes out, and I'm trying to get it. And then I suddenly realized my car was rammed of stuff. So I ended up actually unboxing all the stuff to get it in my car. Oh, wow.
    21:12
    Which is fine. And actually, I was parked in that kind of meet and greet. One of the guys actually helped me Which was kind of him There's a couple of games you didn't mention Colin Princess Bride I loved The way the work the code was very clever The game kind of felt a little bit One shot you to me I like when the barriers come up The breakouts kind of thing And they use that in a clever way Code wise Very clever how they use the system Build wise looks lovely. It kind of didn't feel like pinball to me. What does it feel like? Because it's like you're playing on a screen, right? Like an acrylic playfield. Yeah, it's just like you're playing on a playfield protector. I kind of noticed a lot of difference with them either, so we'll not go into that. That's another topic. But playing it,
    22:09
    it just felt a little barren in the middle because of that screen, but the way they've used the mechs, they do bring the mechs out and there was an extra flipper, but you kept forgetting to use that.
    22:19
    I think there was four flippers on that machine, I'm not sure. Yeah, I heard there was something weird that you had to use the extra flippers by using the other buttons for the... Oh, it's so clever what he does. He's done this one, now I cannot remember the Princess Bride, it's a hilarious film and it's a long time since I've seen it. I'd have to revisit it. After playing the game, I said to myself, I'm going to revisit that one. So you get the point where it was kind of like Monty Python-esque, where he fights left handed or something so all of a sudden you're playing two flippers with one hand because there's three buttons each side so you're playing the game with one hand so you're still fighting left handed it's hard to explain but very very clever use of the code I didn't play it enough to understand the game or the code but I came off after one game I thought I've had me filled with that one basically. Lovely looking pin, mate. A really nice one. What was the other one, Neil? Ninja Eclipse.
    23:20
    I thought that was okay. I think the build was really well made. I played it and actually enjoyed that more than Princess Bride because it felt like a real pinball.
    23:31
    I think the guy and I'm going to lead on to the end bit where I like the best part about Texas, but the guy has done an awesome job with that. As a new pinball, I don't know much about him or what he's doing, but I look at that and it looks better than other companies' pinballs. You know, build-wise,
    23:53
    it seems to be nice engineered bits here and there. I was very impressed. So it's Turner Pinball, and I have to say, look, I agree with you, and I should have mentioned this on the podcast, but six months ago in Chicago turn up pinball I mean and I don't mean this by any disrespect by this but they were seen as a bit of a joke I mean everyone thought this thing's terrible actually I played the game and it was okay I had some things that weren't quite great but you kind of approached it like it was a toy as opposed to a pinball machine and fair play to him right he took all of that feedback and completely redesigned the entire cabinet and brought it back six months later. That didn't be like the toy. That didn't be like the toy at all. It felt like one of the best builds in my mind. Quality pins Yeah, I agree. But also it had stuff like, you know you could lift the thing up and it would stick the cabinet itself had more to it than just, you know, holding the playfield. And second to that they also added a lot of improvements to the game and especially the kind of LCD bit where there was a lot more going on. I was impressed by it and I'm looking forward to seeing it in Chicago, but there's a lot of flow in the game, a lot of fun. I didn't have a great amount of time to play it, unfortunately, because every time I went there, there was a queue, which actually... Yes, there was. Yes, that was one of the few pins I had to queue for, because there was only two of them, wasn't there? I was going to ask, is that just two on site, was it? Yeah, so you had a permanent queue on that one. Chicago, I think you only had two as well, but you could get on it right away, because basically, people just looked at it and thought, nah, I don't want to play that, which is a great shame. And I talked to the guy, I think his name's Rob, Rob Turner,
    25:47
    and I was talking to him and said, I played this in Chicago and liked it, but you guys got a bit of a hard time. And I said, look, pinball people just expect to see a set sort of thing, so if you mess, you know, the cabinet's one of those things it's like me at work, I don't do anything to me at work, if you mess with my desk, it just pisses me off, right? no one messed with my deck and it's kind of a similar thing where people kind of expect something in pinball and when you start messing around with it or you do things to it that make it make the experience less like you know the guys the deep root guys where they made this pin bar thing that made it hard to actually play the game you know that was a bit of a challenge so finally the last game call in Elton John I was going to save this to the end well not quite the end but for me that was Game of the Show I'll tell you why and it wouldn't have been Game of the Show for everybody but I was surprised all the lads I was with loved the game one of them bought the game I could see myself owning that game if it was a lot cheaper the artwork Franchi's done on there I think it's his best to date it's stunning in the flesh What's the price of it in the US?
    27:10
    I have no idea I think it Wow So it still super expensive Even over there Yeah but you know Steve Ritchie again Forget about Franchi and the Arts Steve Ritchie has done it Who doesn't like a Steve Ritchie game Right back from Getaway My Getaway is just across the road at Billies And I'm still going easy for a big collection You've got a collection of about 8 There's only one game I play it's get away i absolutely love it and it's tried and tested you know i've had his star trek about his acdc uh yeah basically i just love his pins he's went to jjp and he says in no uncertain terms he hits them over a stern or certain ones over a stern i'm not mentioning names but i feel like he's gone over there and he's just they've given whatever bomb he wanted and he's used every part of it, he produced a masterpiece I didn't play it enough to understand the core too much for it's typical you know, it's typical JJP Elton John, not a big fan of but the toe tappers and the earworms you know, you'll play a song and go I like this, you know as soon as Rocketman comes on it has your toe tapping and lighting I haven't actually played it is it like Guns N' Roses?
    28:32
    No, I had a Guns N' Roses CE, vastly better than Guns N' Roses. Guns N' Roses for me was multiball for multiball for multiball and I got a big dreary trying to kick the sun war. Look, I'm not dissing the game. I love the game. Is the rules the same? Do you have to keep the music going?
    28:53
    Elton John is... You love Star Trek? I guarantee you, you will love this game because it is a Star Trek sort of flow monster. It's a similar layout, but it is different, if you overlay them you see the differences, but it's got a mode base, but they've done some cool things like, you know, you've got this mode multiball, croc multiball and rocket multiball, if you get them both together you get croc and multiball, which I thought was a kind of cool thing but as Colin says, the reason I love that, I mean I'm not a massive Elton John fan, my wife's she's a bit bigger we went to see him a while ago, but when you There's something about his music that just works in pinball You know it's And I think JGP Fair play to them Have pulled together and actually Steve Ritchie Have pulled together a masterpiece But not only that they've done one other big thing There's no Question that they have fixed Any sort of flipper BS In that game you know It is night and day different I always used to find that in my Guns and Roses It used to feel like very like limp noodles I didn't like that at all It's like Hobbit's floaty isn't it I like the games I've had Hobbit, I love the game I've had them quite a long time but this is a different generation honestly if they continue making their pains like that it's just the price it's just that they're getting back the price it's $13,000 for the for the, well, they call it the Platinum Edition, which I'm glad they've changed the name because LE, for a game that sells in the South... It's not limited. It's not limited, right.
    30:41
    But, yeah, I mean, look, I was, you know, as someone, you know, first of all, fair play to Colin because, you know, I got a bit of stick when I said I like Jaws, but I got a bit of salt.
    30:53
    And now Colin's having to eat the dish, so... But you know what it is? I admitted it day one when I had a game on a premium. I was like, wow. And then four of us started playing, and we kept going back to Jaws. Jaws wasn't me game of the show. It was me surprise of the show. And I tell you, the other big surprise of the show that I stayed away from, Venom. I really enjoyed Venom. I hate to say it again. I really hate to say it again. But I only played it in premium flavor because I looked at the pro thing, and, well, they're forgetting to put something in here. It does look a bit barren. but if that wasn't a Marvel game let's say it was something like John Wick and you're firing, you're firing this is where the modes are coming up and the baddies are there and this fast firing, I felt like I was on that can you remember that game with the barbarians, Rollerball or something was it called?
    31:50
    I know what you mean, Star Roller I can't remember anyhow that one, something you'll come up with I felt like I was continuing firing these guns, you know. But it was a Marvel game, and I really enjoyed it. And everyone enjoyed it to the point where one of the lads, I'll not mention the name, but one of the lads will seriously think they're getting one, and he probably will at some point. I don't blame him. You know, me too. I would have a premium. Yeah, same. I'm five over now. I'm five over, something like that. I've got pins loaned out left, right, and centre on free loan. And I'm thinking to myself, this is stupid. I've just bought, I've got to tell you, I've just bought a Jaws.
    32:36
    That's what I think a Jaws. But did you buy a Jaws premium? Go back to January and pinball info. No, we'll forget about that. And look at the two glorious posts that Colin made about Jaws. Where do you post to this morning? I wake up to WhatsApp. I've been playing Jaws all night I was pissing myself laughing It made my day Can I just say something I bought a Pro and there's a reason I bought a Pro I'm not getting into It wasn't brand new in box I got it 30 players So I was intending getting it To sell it To maybe Get something I was going to see if I could get it I'll be honest, I was going to say that would go a venom for it. That was the idea. But I set it up yesterday, and I've got loads of work to do. I've got loads of back orders and stuff, and I couldn't get off it. And the game is brilliant. And it's a pro. You heard it here first, guys. If you haven't got an order from Carl, he's been playing games.
    33:44
    Well done, Carl. I have four sets of stuff to get out, and some people in this podcast are not getting them. but I started playing and I couldn't get off and it was like half past ten I was dragging myself off because I just had to get the ice gone, I just had to have one more go and one more go and that's a sign of a good pin one more go, the flow's really nice, the things I don't like about it is should I have dropped targets I can probably live without the boat at the top, somebody's probably going to put something up there and I'll buy it to fill the gap but the drop targets for me was a biggie What else is missing, Neil, on Jaws Premium The playfield And the drop targets is kind of the main thing Really, isn't it? Well, for me The boat lifting up I'm not really bothered My play point of view The one thing I'll say, right This is where I think Elwynn Has pulled another one off On this game You know We've seen this talk about pinball moments before Right I tell you what there's no And actually Paul mentioned it to me last night But I'd never got to the moment I got it to this morning There's a mode called night fishing or something Yeah yeah I've had that one And let me tell you that is a pinball moment That's unbelievably Well done in my It was a good lighting effect is it I imagine Yeah Zidane, be on the pro as well. That's the best part of it. You're getting the same... And it's not like a pinball moment where some toy does something, right? Or, you know, yeah, there's music, but the whole kind of environment of the game changes. And I was like, holy shit. I mean, I was super... I've never seen something quite like done so well. And it's also, it's not... It's not kind of in your face. It's kind of subtly done And then you're playing like And it's like night and you think Oh of course And you know here's the great thing Code version .87 Yeah the assets From me first Playing that the assets in that now There must be vastly More because it's amazing The amount of assets I have in that game I've done the night swim and I've done The night fishing and I think that's great But what impresses me is at least they've put the RGB in a pro and give you them effects. Because without them, it would have killed the pro. I don't think the shark matters and I'm a bash toy, Paul. I really am. I love hitting the toy because if a friend comes in, he doesn't play pinball, I'll say, or you're on Metallica's bash party, he'll have a pinball moment. You know, if you come in, you play a monster bash, hit Frankie, he'll have a pinball moment. You know, I like that. But with yours It doesn't need the shock coming out I think the vibes From me as well A little bit unjust press You know You see a pin you don't play it And you just tend it It happens on pimp all the time Everybody will diss the new pin But hands up Seriously After playing the pin I take everything back It's brilliant Even in a pro even in a pro it's brilliant and you know I think that's what same with Godzilla the pros every bit as good as the LE in my view in terms of playing actually there's some elements you might argue a little bit better and then Colin actually let's move on we'll come back to the stuff around the show and Paul let's pick up with you and kind of same thing, let's just walk through you were there for a little bit less time I think well I got there later on the second day that those I was there when it opened yeah that's right, I remember so I'm going to echo a lot of what Carl said I think and obviously we played some of the games together and sort of shared our thoughts at the time I mean Jaws yeah, it was a big surprise I think all the same things, really. So I was a bit underwhelmed by the release and the videos I'd seen of it. But actually, if I was going to say anything, I'd expect the Pro to be the one because I thought it was going to play faster and simpler without the upper playfield. I thought the upper playfield seemed a bit pointless to me.
    38:31
    But I played the Premium and the Pro, but the Premium just blew me away. It was really good. Really thoroughly enjoyed it. For me, it was the shots, the ramps, super smooth, really nice ball path, really nice ways where it hook around. It just felt good. The ball swings. I mean, no one's great at that sort of thing anyway, but just different ball paths I haven't seen before. And that was what I really enjoyed about it. And, you know, I wasn't going to get one. I'm still not at the moment, but I'm really tempted. I'm really having to hold back with the FOMO and everybody getting theirs. I'm really getting jealous. Um, it's really, it was cool. And, you know, the other thing was I was going to hopefully not, well, I wasn't going to do a mod for it. Um, you know, because every man and a dog is trying to do a mod for drawers right now, but I played it and it was one of those things where I just had an idea. I was like, Oh, I, I've got an idea. I think it'd be really cool. So I'm, I'm actually, I'm working on something. I don't know whether I can make it work because it's a little bit ambitious, but I find for that, you know, you play a game and you get a feel for it and it either clicks with you or it doesn't. and that one did click. I haven't ordered one yet. I figured because it's a premium, I've got time, and I was sort of thinking, I'll wait and see if Stern bring anything else out this month and just sort of see, but it was good. It was really good.
    39:53
    What are your thoughts on that upper play field then? Because you mentioned in the pro, you were worried that it would affect the flow. It's a really fast upper play field, you know. It's like you barely get time for one shot, and I think that's what it's all about is just reflex action. you're not up there for long it's not like trying to jiggle a machine about and look I only played a few games at a show you know I couldn't hear it I couldn't get into the lighting in the way that you do at home so you know I would say I've only experienced half of it if that really you know but just the ball pass and the shots were what did it for me and the more I think there's more ramps aren't there on the premium I think or just the way the wire frames work and yeah there's There's the wire thing that goes back down and round from the upper plate. Yeah, that was a really nice shot. Yeah, it was beautiful. I mean, and it feels great when you hit it, but I agree with you. The upper plate feels more like a passing shot. It's not like you're trying to play a mini pinball machine, and they're always crap, right? Yeah. You're literally kind of in a – it looks like you're in, like, a higher part of the same game. There happens to be a flipper there, and you've got three or four – So it feels like an upper level, if anything else, then. I connect all this exact same thing, I didn't mention that, but when playing the premium the big loss for me was the drop targets onto the pro it kind of annoyed me, the top play field I couldn't even get the shot off I was at home and once I dial in, I would get that shot but I just, it was there and gone, I was like, oh I've missed it again, I've missed it again, and it was like oh just do away with that so to me it was more the drop targets than the upper playfield the look of it was nice though the look of the boat was nice I agreed but also I really liked the shark coming up, that was actually really cool, better in person than I was expecting I just I can't fault it caught me off guard because I just didn't think it was for me and like I say I've got a mod idea and I'll wait and see. I'm really trying to hold back for once on a pinball machine. Because normally, you know, I've got some alleys as well and I've jumped in. And with an alley previously, you had to get in early if you wanted one and that was it. So once you're in premium land, I sort of felt, well, I could just wait and see, right? You've got to be years before they stop making it probably. Exactly. So, you know, see what others bring out or see what they bring out next. but the problem is I'm trying to make a mod for a machine I don't have which is a pain so that's a first as well so I'm having to rely on all you good people to give me measurements and all the rest of it but yeah so thank you for that but no it's good so Jaws was great I mean Elton John I've jumped to because I felt Elton I didn't feel it as much as other people it looks great, Elton as a theme doesn't do anything for me But I think they captured the theme perfectly in terms of the artwork and the glitz and the glamour and all of that, which is really cool. The shots were just, I think they were just like an evolution of what Steve Ritchie has done before, which is fine. But that's where the difference of Jaws gets me. You know, like I play Jaws and I'm like, whoa, I haven't seen that before. That felt really good. Whereas playing Elton, it was just like, well, I've kind of seen this layout before. It's a bit smoother, a bit slicker. but I don't know, that for me just didn't quite do it but it is pretty and I like looking at it and I'd play it in somebody else's collection I think I could have a fun night playing a multiplayer on it but I would never I personally wouldn't buy it but these things are so subjective but you mentioned about the flipper power I haven't played JJP's before so I did Toy Story what's the mafia one Godfather and they were just I mean bad I'll be honest sorry yeah I just didn't I'm into toys like Toy Story should have been right up my street but Flipper Power maybe it just couldn't withstand a show or something but Flippers I just didn't enjoy them at all actually in fact I think I walked away from Godfather like it was that sort of just didn't connect with me at all Toy Story to me feels like, you remember when they brought out E.T. on the Atari They should have buried them all. No they did, they buried them all in the desert somewhere because it was a bad game and to me it's not Toy Story is not a terrible game, don't get me wrong it's not in that league but it's in terms of the opportunity missed, right Toy Story should be one of the best this is why people I get a lot of shit for being negative on games but it's not because I want to be negative it's because if we don't feed back that this game isn't good enough we'll keep getting more of the same stuff and I feel strongly that Luke if this game isn't good I want to tell you why it's not good and Toy Story just misses the mark entirely from my point of view But it was interesting for me the flipper thing because I've never experienced it before and I've heard and seen you guys write about this and I totally felt it, the flippers just felt weird but then I've played Elton John and that wasn't an issue. So yeah, they clearly solved it. On the theme of flippers though, I had the same issue with the barbecue game where... Oh, we didn't talk about Barrios. So I thought it was really interesting. I mean, so again, all the ones I played had flipper power issues where I mean, it's not a complex game and there aren't complex shots or hard shots to make, but the flipper still was struggling to make the one ramp, I think, that is in there, you know. And when it can't make the one ramp on a very simplistic game. So if it was priced right, and I think they got the art wrong. I think it felt to me like it should have gone a bit more retro, like how Pulp Fiction has done. And I'd actually played some of the old games for the first time, so I played a lot of Dino. so Davey was showing me Dino and describing the rules and stuff that was a really fun game, really enjoyed it and then I played the BBQ game and I sort of felt, ah this feels like it wants to be that and obviously it doesn't have the ramps and stuff but I feel like if they'd gone way more retro with the artwork, simplified some of the stuff that's going on in there it could have felt like a stripped down old machine You've nailed it there for me, only the part I didn't like about is the video asset drops they look straight out of adobe stock yeah exactly yeah it's all of that and it's just it just was a mishmash design style wise it needed a bit of art vision and an art director to really pull that together properly so i mean i think look i i felt this actually i played the game like literally turned it on and played it and i was able to hit the shots but over time the the machine just couldn't it just couldn't keep the flippers at a power level you could make that shot consistently actually as a game as a tournament player i was thinking this would be awesome in tournaments but they've got to sort that flip of a guy actually david fix i mentioned to him he's like yeah no we've we've had that feedback we're going to take a look at it so hopefully when the games start moving that they've solved that but the the this is the problem when you when you invent uh ip you're you're fully accountable for all parts of it and if and if you come up with something,
    47:48
    you've got to put the vision into it. And I actually think they did a reasonably decent job of that on Galactic Tank Force. They haven't done enough with Barry O's. And frankly, I don't think they're going to.
    48:01
    And I think everyone's like... This will end up like Pirates, right? Code abandoned probably. I don't know if it'll end up code abandoned, but I definitely feel that... I mean, I think they'll see through to the rules, at least that the rules have done. But whether you see the kind of level of Jaws integration I super doubt it right but I thought it was a fun game, yeah Fix the Flippers it's still a bit on the pricey side for what you're getting and that's why I think there's an opening if they priced it right and stripped it down I think they could have slotted in there and actually been competitive but I think comparing it to like a Jaws Pro or something like that for maybe a small amount more yeah, it's not a comparison for me. And again, it's always subjective. We're going to have different opinions, which is great. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I've seen people time and time again say, unlicensed pins just won't sell anymore in these markets. Everyone wants a licensed game. But I think if the right unlicensed game came in, I would want it. I really do want the actual pin force. But I think you've got to price it appropriately, right? So if it's unlicensed, you're not paying the license fee. You're not paying Star Wars or Marvel or anything else. So why am I paying the same as those machines, right? So that's point number one. And then the other one that I would have compared the barbecue game to is going back to Turner Pinball and that Ninja Eclipse, right? Is that what it was?
    49:30
    So I really enjoyed that. I came and grabbed Cole for that one and said, you know, I said, oh, you've got to play this one. That was, I really enjoyed it. Tiny bit of flipper issue, but compared to the others, not as bad, not quite at stone level but the game itself, the artwork quite here there's the sound there's one sound effect which was winding me up a little bit because it seemed to be quite high pitched and coming through above all the surrounding noise so I don't know how that would be but I felt the artwork was really nice, he'd obviously created this theme so it was a new IP like a ninja theme, that's cool what's wrong with a good ninja theme I can't think of one that's been done yet.
    50:13
    So I think there's – I think he's actually as a, you know, a non-licensed pin. I think that's really close. Again, if you price it competitively, had some really nice shots. The mech had like a double kick-out kind of thing, like a zigzag. I thought it was really cool. I mean, that caught me off guard as in like super cool, you know.
    50:33
    Seemed like a nice guy and, again, really impressed with what he's achieved. So I've got my eyes on that game. I mean, if that came out in the sort of, I don't know, I mean, this is optimistic, but 6K, you know, if it was in the 6K region, I think that would be... Yeah, you're right. That would be compelling. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's difficult now for people. But anyway, Turner I really liked. Princess Bride, you've mentioned. Oh, man, I'm a massive fan of that film. Really big fan of the film. but and I haven't played Multimorphic so again I was going in that and I wanted to really like it because I'm all for changing things up like I know I get the arguments let's keep it different all the rest of it keep it sane but it was just weird choices like three buttons on each side and a different button for each flipper and nobody I met remembered to use the second flipper because it's just not natural to do that and did just quickly did you notice the three flippers were like on a block of wood that brought them out a little bit further. Yeah, it just felt weird. What the hell? I don't know what that was all about. And I didn't expect it to jump out at me, but it does, you know. The actual screen thing, I like the concept of it, but the play field is just too bare. There's just not enough on it for me. And the wall and the shots, I just didn't have a good experience. Actually, I did walk away from that as well, and I didn't want to because I really like Princess Bride. So I went to play the Scott Denise one that he's done for Final Resistance.
    52:08
    That's it. So that was better. That was better because it felt a bit more TNA. It had the music. The shots were clean and it was simple. But then I thought he wasn't making the most of the digital platform because I didn't know where I was supposed to shoot. And I just thought you've got this massive screen, which could be literally lighting up paths. This could be like the game changer in pinball of like really clear, you know, instructions of where to shoot and when and all the rest of it. But I think I heard that he's sort of stripped it back and didn't want to rely on all of that and wanted it to feel more traditional. So, yeah, I don't know. Multimorphic just didn't do it for me, unfortunately. Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw contrary to what you were saying, Cole Looney Tunes, I really like the look of it, I think you mentioned that but it felt like a cartoon to me, which is good it was okay, played nicely Texas Chainsaw, I see why people like it, I just don't like horror themes I just don't, it's just a thing that's why they did it, right?
    53:13
    clever marketing in that respect yeah, and it is good in that respect So if I was getting one, I'd probably go Looney Tunes. But I can see why people feel it's a better fit on the Texas chain store. How do you guys feel about the build quality? I forgot to ask that. How do you feel about the build quality? I felt fine to me, but, you know, in a few games, knocking it around, it seemed fine. It had no issues, and it'd obviously been sat there for a couple of days.
    53:39
    I've got a TNA, so I sort of know, but that's sort of spooky, but sort of Scott Denise-y, so it's hard to compare. I didn't lock in on either one of those I wouldn't get one Jaws was a big one, Venom again like Cole said, I think we both were playing that, Venom was a massive surprise and I think I mentioned as well exactly the same discussion, if that was John Wick or something, would love it Marvel with the zombie yeti artwork is getting a bit repetitive at this stage for me and I'm a Marvel fan You like Marvel movies right? Yeah exactly Well yeah I mean look I love I love Zombietti art I love Marvel comic books I love Marvel movies Well you know the older ones Infinity War yeah But they it getting a bit much now when you look at Infinity War and Infinity Quest they start to look the same So I've got a little bit of a thing there. But that was a great game, the premium. So yeah, Venom Premium was getting me. That was getting me hooked as well.
    54:46
    I kept going back to Jaws. Pulp Fiction I hadn't played. Lived up to expectations. First game, really nice. clean, hard, but in a good way. It's just a great game. I'm really looking forward. I mean, I'm on the list for that, so hopefully it follows through. Is that for an LE? Yeah, yeah. So who knows when it'll actually come. But I mean, you know, it looks like it's a stunning game. Stunning. I think that's the sort of game that I'll you know, it'll outlive me, I think. I can't imagine I'll be selling that. It's just beautiful.
    55:20
    And then So the show was great. Like, I know we touched on it. I've just repeated really what Cole said with a couple of minor personal preferences. But the show was great. The people were great. I suppose in terms of machines, though, the one thing we haven't spoken about, which I thought was really the showstopper, was the homebrew section. That's where I was saving the end. That's where I was on about. Yeah. So I don't know when we want to tackle that, but that section was – Let's jump in now. Well, one quick thing, actually, from both of you, So I think Cole's kind of covered his most surprising and his pin of the show. I think what I'd also like to add, if you could also cover, Cole, your least favourite, and then, Paul, if you could do the same three, that would be good to understand.
    56:04
    So, Cole, if you can quickly tell me your least favourite. Least favourite. Probably Barry's. I couldn't get up the ramp.
    56:15
    Barry's Barbecue, Barry O's Barbecue. I just couldn't get up the ramp. I like the flame effects on the pop bumpers. And I was like, I like the way they've done that. You know, the little shiny things get me in my heart for a bit bling. But I couldn't play it. I walked away because I couldn't get the ball up the ramp. Now, to put that into context, I went to Turner. We spoke about Turner. There was a permanent queue at Turner Pinball. There was only two of them. And there was a permanent queue. you couldn't walk on it Barry O's he had six machines and you could get on get all the flipper fade on all them five machines I tried two different machines I couldn't get up the ramp it's not because I'm bad, I was hitting the ramp it was crawling up and crawling back and I hit it and it would come back it was so bloody annoying, you had to turn a pinball every shot everything you went for it went, the build and everything so worst pin of the show I hate to say this because I kind of struck up a little bit of a friendship with David Fix and he even gave me one of his because Collective Tank, the art on that is off the wall, it's awesome I think it's packed it's everything I want in a pin but again we'll have to have another two hour podcast because there's so many things wrong with that pin for me I did have a really good game and when I had a good game I was like whoa I like this coming back to Pulp Fiction on the last year I hit everything went off I got every multi ball I was on fire and I was playing with the med net mark and he was like you're doing alright here call my score was flying up I came off that and I was like wow wow that's the pin I want to wasn't me pin of the show I still think Elton was and what was the other question there was another question so your biggest surprise yeah my biggest surprise and then can I just say the time I spent on most was homebrew I kept going back honestly stunning what them guys have done I can give you a full I mean I chatted to the guys it's just mind blowing what they've done with that. Park that pool, Carl.
    58:50
    I've got to go. I'll just quickly go for a restroom stop. You get where I am there? Restroom? I can.
    59:00
    Paul, then, same three questions. So what was it? Worst game first, right? Sure, worst please first, yeah. Or least favourite, let's call it. Yeah, least favourite, sorry. Princess Bride. Yeah, I don't know if it's because I love the film, but I just, yeah it just did not I didn't like it I can't get away from that sorry you know maybe there's more to it that you know Cole was describing some stuff which I didn't experience but yeah that was a shame so that was my least favourite biggest surprise was it that you saw biggest surprise yeah I mean I'll be honest that was Venom like I was surprised at Jaws but Venom was like a really like whoa okay I thought this was supposed to be an absolute turd you know but I played the premium and it was i do wonder if that's going to be a stranger things kind of yeah i think so i honestly i'm tempted to try and get hold of one but it's just so much money now for a premium and i wouldn't go pro like it had for me it had to be the premium with the little targets to flip out and all of that but the coding the way that you can change characters get the different music tracks even there you could sort of sense the feel of the different flavor of each character and stuff. It was cool, man. I really enjoyed it. And the layout, I don't know, maybe I'm just missing that from my lineup. I don't have any machines that just have a series of shots. Fan layout.
    60:23
    I guess it's a fan layout, isn't it? So, that was probably the surprise. I mean, Jaws was also a bit of a surprise.
    60:33
    It's a tough one. Best game, I mean, it's kind of like it's either Jaws Premium or Pulp Fiction. I have to push you for a choice. You've got to make one.
    60:47
    I mean, they're so different. I mean, I almost tell them it's like picking a different genre. I put them on top of each other. Do what Chris Gonzo does when he has his top 100. He says, if price wasn't an object and you could have one or the other today, but only one, which one would it be? Well, again, it's like, well, I need Jaws for mod making. but from a collector's point of view I'd have Pulp Fiction I think that will go the distance from me but if I'm honest the one that I spent the time on there and just thoroughly enjoyed is a different relationship but they're both great I'll stick with Pulp Fiction just quickly, I'm going to press on this Labyrinth I liked a lot of the design decisions made, it still had Flipafade for me, which I just don't understand why these machines have got flip-a-face. It's the basic function of the thing. Of the game, yeah. You know... I experienced that in Chicago and apparently they were like, because the games were getting hammered Yeah, I was about to say it was just continually hammered.
    61:57
    For miles and I think they were trying to manage that. I think my sense is when I'd like to play one that isn't a show so I can really feel how it plays. But, yeah, you're right. I mean, these games are designed to be hammered. They're supposed to be in arcades for people putting pound coins in them, right? Yeah, and it didn't seem to happen on the older machines, right, as far as I'm aware. So it seems to be a new phenomenon. But, I mean, the thing I liked about Labyrinth, actually, I really, going back to that design direction and having a vision, they knew what they were doing. They had a vision. All the sculpts are brilliant, the way they interact, and they poke up little characters really nice. Also, the play field art, you know, they made the decision to make it like a map, like a labyrinth. It's not just pictures of people and scenes from a film or whatever.
    62:50
    It's a story, a bit like a game board, you know. You're seeing it as a map looking down. And I think it works brilliantly. It's really nicely done. It's subtle almost, the decisions they've made, but it weaves into the theme perfectly. So design vision, I think they absolutely nailed it. Gameplay-wise, I didn't get enough to really feel it. And the music is a little bit sleepy. It doesn't quite have the vibe that I enjoy in a pinball machine. And that's where I'd like to get to know Jaws a bit better, actually, because that, again, it's not got the normal rock music or whatever it is. The pumping music, yeah. Yeah, it's atmospheric, right? But it's atmospheric in a tense way, whereas I felt Labyrinth was atmospheric in a sleepy way. Yeah, I mean, you're in for a treat with the Jaws audio, that's all I can tell you. Yeah, the touch of it. The touch of it, it really is. I mean, so, Paul, you know, you didn't like when David Bowie would suddenly come on and start going, I didn't do it for you. I mean, that bit, I don't mind that sort of stuff, to be honest, but it's a bit like the album, John. it doesn't really grab me that was alright but it's the sleepy tinkly music while you're flipping the game the odd little weird voice I actually burst out laughing when I first played it and David Bowie started doing his thing, it made me laugh because it was just surely you must like You Remind Me of the Babe though I love that, Magic Dance right I think it's called, to me that I love that song Sorry, Scott. I love it. I'm probably the only guy here that probably loves that kind of era of fantasy. I would have a Labyrinth. I really would.
    64:42
    Conscious time. Let's move on. First of all, really appreciate that, guys. Let's talk about the homebrew section because I kind of talked a tiny bit about this in the main podcast. But I have to say, if you ask me which game did I play most, it was 8 Ball Beyond. I kept going back and playing that is that literally like a guy who's built the playfield from scratch or was it a refeed he's built the entire game soup to nuts from scratch actually he built the entire game in a year and he scrapped it totally he realised how bad that game was I spoke to this guy at length on a number of occasions he even says I will buy that pin off you now a 15 or 20 grand. Name your price. I think a lot of people said that to him. Yes, he did. Everybody was saying, you need to make this. It's just so good. I mean, to me, it's like eight ball meets TNA, and it's just brilliant. It's really cool. And again, we go back to non-licensed themes. That nails it, man. It's brilliant. Yeah. TNA's a good example of that, right? That sold well, TNA, and that was an unlicensed theme. The guy who made it Is a guy called Sean Irby Who I've seen at shows and tournaments Quite a few times But go Google it and have a look at it The thing that I love Coloured LEDs When you see a lot of spectrum of colour That's just like You see it on gaming PCs And that's just an attraction For me and you kind of see that On the play field The whole thing is so bright and he's got this kind of big light at the side of it that just illuminates the entire playfield so you kind of feel like it's kind of like it kind of creates this atmosphere on the playfield right away and you can see everything and then you've got this great music and the DM, the screen has got all this stuff on it which actually is quite hard to follow. Did he make his own music then? Yeah. Talk to me about the music Everything he'd done himself after that year he scrapped he started from scratch from a piece of plywood and a router and he just hacked away at this thing for three years he had to do it in stages because cost wise for to get the guy to do the call outs and and then the artists he went through a number of artists that he couldn't afford eventually settled with one and the retro futuristic look of everything is just gelled beautifully. You know, you get on about the balls, there's eight small balls. I was just posing with the voice actors, it's a pain in the ass to find someone doing it for you. Even the core, you know, even the back screen, TNA, look at TNA, it's crap, the graphics on TNA is crap, you know, it's a brilliant game. But they've done it like in a retro look. He's done it like in a future retro look. That's a step ahead of TNA, and it's showing you all your information, everything that's happening. And like Neil said, the eight small balls, which are like targets, they all have this multi-glow style RGB effects that are stunning. And that's all over the play field. And he has magnets that hold the ball. And then another holds the ball. And then he has a target that knocks down like a TNA-esque target that opens up a path to another ball. It's amazing. Honestly, I've kept going back and back and back. Game of the show, best game ever, over Elton John. You kind of buy it. It's a home-grown game. And he stood it up so there were, like, trick shots, you know, so he thought about the rules that tied into the theme. It was just well thought through. I think that would be a massive hit. Again, we come back to price point and where it can fit and stuff, but you know you could sell that uh did you play multiple players with it as in like you know could you a four-player game on it or was it just like he'd only built the code to work with one player we have multiple games i mean so you thought about the code like how it would affect like you know the game state from player to player he'd done all that in-depth code i'm imagining that yeah i mean i i think he was using a framework i think he was using the i think the m pinball framework which does a lot of that stuff for you. Oh, it does some legwork for you. But in terms of rules and the lighting and the music, I mean, the screen part, and actually, if you want to learn more about this, folks, go on Pinside. There's an 8-ball Beyond Thread. I mean, I saw this at... I can't remember what show I saw it at, but the queue to get to it was like miles long. I managed to watch it. I also took some video of this on my YouTube channel, youtube.com.uk one if you want to have a look at it it's a bit shaky cam but you'll get the gist of it but um i just feel that this is it's the full package right it's it's it's the the artwork it's the music it's the game it's the rules and it's kind of it's kind of taken you know pool's been used a lot in pinball and it kind of feels like it's it's it's you know i think the last pool game was what eight eight 8-ball deluxe, right? And 9-ball, which is one of my favourite classics. And he's kind of ripped it right into the future. And put enough into it to make it interesting, but not overly complex.
    70:20
    And it has that TNA feel, but I think it's a simple but addictive game. I think this has got more complexity to it, more repeat value, I would say. I'd have won over TNA Any game And I love TNA I've got TNA I mean I went and talked to George At Stern I talked to Dave Fix I talked to The guys Luke from Spooky I went and talked to all the manufacturers And said One of you guys needs to build this game Because I am convinced There's a market for it I'll buy one Right away I'll buy one Yeah Sounds like there would be a massive market for it Something actually that hasn't been mentioned that he told me is Stern had it for a number of weeks. And they were in talks about doing it. But obviously you looked at it and thought, this is for a boutique manufacturer like Spooky. I really wanted Spooky to take this on.
    71:23
    And I'm just, I don't know if they've just stolen a load of ideas from it and given it back. I've no idea. I hope not.
    71:29
    On the Spooky stand. I was going to ask, wasn't there a heavy metal game there? Motorhead, it's really good By a guy I know he's actually quite pretty well known he's a great tournament player, a guy called Dave Peck whose daughter is the current ladies world champion he's based out of Australia sorry, New Zealand and Dave used to have a pinball collection in the hundreds he had a really successful furniture business or something like that and then bought loads of machines he's downsized and moved because he's kind of retired even though he's probably about my age actually but he put together this Moorhead and you know I have to say if there was a list of themes at the top of my list of pinballs to buy, Moorhead's probably not there but knowing Dave I went along and had a play of it just before the open there was a Coda guy that was there as well and one other guy and for me it felt like a really great game, it was challenging it probably didn't have the kind of what I would say, it was quite a dark kind of grey game which is what Motorhead are all about but it was funny, it had some really wacky comments like you've been fisted and just again the whole thing, soup to nuts you pulled together, you've got proper coders on it, you know it was you couldn't see any other game in this, it was a completely new game, there was one show that I found really difficult, there was this kind of weird loop shot on it you had more head music, again you could hear a little bit, you couldn't really hear that well in the show though because of the noise but again I said to Spooky Luke I said you guys need to make this it was a good fit for them but apparently he's part, well I read that it was, he's Spooky Australia or something like that, so they were affiliated or he was using their set up or something Yeah, so he is, his daughter, Daniele, works for Spooky. Right, okay. And I don't know if, I mean, I don't know if, I think he's got a business relationship with them, but I definitely feel, I mean, I was impressed by the game. And I'd say it's rare, it's very rare that you find a homebrew. I mean, this is the thing about the homebrew section at TPF this year. the games felt more complete than I've ever seen in homebrews usually you find something that's just not quite over the line and it kind of drags it down a little bit close but no cigar this time there was none of that for these three games anyway I totally agree, Motorhead is not a theme that I would specifically go after but I played it and it played really nicely and the thing that I enjoyed it was a challenge but it had this weird overlapping double flipper on the right hand side which I haven't come across that before, maybe it's been around Starship Troopers probably is the one I've heard of so I haven't played with that before and I thought that was quite interesting to me, like getting around the idea that if you mistime it, it just rolls back in between the two and stuff like that and it just, yeah, it would catch you off guard so that was fun really enjoyed it though but everything, echo everything Neil said about that one, but the homebrew section as a whole, yeah, really finished stuff, and the guy that did I mean, I don't know if we want to move on to the others, but Friday 13th also stood out as a guy that complete package, like that dude we spoke to him, and he basically got call outs from the original actors, that he either tracked down on stuff like Cameo or he'd gone to conventions and asked him to say something and recorded it as best he could at the convention and used it. And then, you know, they were up for it. And he got one of the actors and she did a load of voiceover work properly for him, you know, that he paid her to do and stuff. So he'd really gone that extra mile to tie it all together with original actors doing their lines. And, you know, again, it's a horror one. It doesn't it's not the sort of thing that appeals to me, but I could really appreciate how much work had gone into it. and how well he tied it all together.
    75:55
    Yeah, that one. And I think Saw as well. Again, another horror one. Saw was a remake of Whirlwind, wasn't it? It was, and I think it was a bit more obvious.
    76:06
    It was nicely done, but it was a bit more obviously a wee skin as opposed to a ground-up sort of machine. So they were really impressive, though. But 8-4 for me, that took... That, again, pretty much was up there with Best of the Show, you know, Pulp Fiction and Jaws. I loved it. Wow.
    76:26
    Yeah. Can you guys talk me back through, like, TNA? Was TNA like that when it first came out? Was that like some guy's, you just brought in as a homebrew, right? Yeah. So I played the TNA prototype in Chicago 2016?
    76:41
    2016. And I was blown away by it. I thought, oh, my God. and Scott works for Pinball Life so he's well connected in the industry as well as selling parts to you, me and everyone else they supply parts to the industry as well and I was blown away by this the music, the light show it was all white wood and it sat in a Dolly cabinet which is a bit weird so it's weird to think that this 8-ball deluxe, or 8-ball beyond, it's like a much more finished product. So they've already got the idea to see what it looks like. T&A had no art at all. In fact, it was the only thing T&A didn't have. That's what I've always seen with homebrews typically of the old days, stuff that playfields, I'm on par with like a strictly custom pinball group, and a lot of the time artwork is just secondary to everything else. But I think that's an interesting take on probably a discussion for another time but TNA doesn't really need a theme for me, it's music and it's a repetitive sequence that you have to repeat but it could basically be anything it doesn't need graphics I think the Whitewood on that would play just as well with the light show and just be almost more simple in some ways but yeah I mean the challenge of something like 8-ball is you've got to tie that theme together really coherently which I think is an added thing that he's had to do On Friday the 13th I don't know if you saw it but they were on in before the lock which our good buddy Dave Stumbler is the co-host, actually watch on Monday night I think he's announcing the next big thing that he's already sold thousands of yeah it's so the guy who developed it I'm sure I remember his name I think it's Harry I might be wrong on that but yeah I mean Friday the 13th again it looks like a finished game it played really well shot really well when I was playing it there was a couple issues with it I think they had to reboot it but other than that it was and actually it was one of the things right 8 ball beyond played a whole weekend and it didn't have flipper fade and you could get all the shots right so if some guy in his garage can do it hey come on pimple manufacturers let's get our shit together please because there really should be it sounds like to me that maybe they're using coils that just overheat too easily right they need to build maybe bigger calls in there. Yeah, I mean, I think the whole system has to, you know, you have to think about the whole system and the way that it does pulsing. And it's not a simple thing like just, you know, turn the power up or that. There's, you know, you can, and if it was, you know, JJ people would have fixed it a few years ago, right? So it took them a while. But, you know, talking to some of the Stern guys, it's not a trivial thing to get this right. but when you do get it right it makes a massive difference for me then i mean i'll give an example though i think it was god said one of them it was like the coils were like stretched the limit so when you know normally sometimes you go into a stern diagnostic menu you can adjust the power yeah the threshold for the power is basically at maximum you can't there was no upper limit it was like no that's it that's what it's got so i do wonder sometimes they're undersizing the coils and they're driving them that much harder if you maybe use the bigger coil you drive it less Could it not also be the fact that Spike 2 is all tech now Really all tech Spike 3 is due and that's going to handle All this a lot better It's not as old as WPC You know and I don't get a flip or fade on my Yeah yeah yeah For me the issue In Spike 2 And I think Stern will fix this right So Stern Came out and we talked about this they've come out with this new bushing right and I have put that in a few games I've basically cleaned out pinball, pinball life got them in I ordered all that they had and I've started to replace them on my games let me tell you mentioned Godzilla, I've changed them on Godzilla so I normally for fans I've pulled them out you do not need them anymore So you're suggesting that the issue is down to friction? Well yeah and if you think about it you know if you got a lot of back poor friction and you seen the boosting and if you also think about what are those flippers that everyone buying they like diamond flippers or whatever precision flippers when you look at them, one of the things and I've said this before, the bushing is like this nice machined aluminium part, yeah it's milled metal basically right that is, in my mind as an engineer, that's the secret to the power of that, yeah the flipper's made of metal but it's like torque and BHP so the flipper being made of metal helps it move faster but the torque in it is coming from that bearing right, that bushing rather and in my mind Stern have changed the, changed this kind of I forget the name of it it's driving me nuts now but it's a different type of plastic it's a much more, you just tell by touching it that it feels more expensive So I think the original was nylon right? Yeah and I think they've moved to No I think it's still nylon But it's like a different I don't know a different type of Nylon I don't know Plastics but Anyway the outcome is that You know this has definitely made a difference The first game and actually if you go on If you picked up one of the new Stranger Things The re-release that they've done It came to that game and actually At InDesk they had one there And I was hitting the drop targets and the ball was smacking bang off because it was hitting the drop target that's the biggest thing I hate about drop targets you know sometimes if they hit too hard they don't register the hit they just risk it and you get this all the time and actually they finally I think they I don't know if they did but I don't know if they fixed the drop target so they dropped the power back in the pool but they solved it and it turns out it's just bearing because they had it up and I was looking at it thinking that's different anyway sorry that was just a kind of a sidebar but I mean the other game I played Saw which was you know as Colin said well a partial wind well wind remake you know they made a good reuse of the kind of fan bit but once you'd seen that it was once I recognised I didn't actually initially recognise it as a well wind re-theme someone mentioned it to me and when I saw it all I could see was well wind And being the Pat Lawler fan that I am That was a kind of Almost immediate turn off I don't know what it was I don't know It was okay It had a few challenges I don't know if you guys played MechWarrior That's one pin I didn't play Didn't appeal to us Just going back to Saw And Friday the 13th I cannot remember But one of them two The guy had even done the very first ever 3D mode on his screen, and then Stern released Jaws, and he was absolutely gutted. So he took the footage from either Friday the 13th 3D or Saw 3D and used it in a mode, and you had to wear the glasses, and then Jaws dropped before the show. he was good I was the first one to do it and it took all his glory that's how deep they went so he had modes I'm sure it was Friday the 13th where you had modes from every movie as well as the 8 original yeah there's a lot of them but he had modes for each one so you would play it would say Friday the 13th part 3, Friday the 13th part 4 you know would have each movie in a mode and it would show you the footage from it, I mean they'd never get away with the assets, it would cost them a fortune to bring that in It is Friday the 13th that I had 3D, not Saw Yeah Again, Friday the 13th Saw, they've all got great pin side pages with a load of detail actually the one, the Friday the 13th one I quickly scanned these on the way back it's got several evolutions of this game before you got it to where it was and the whole story of how he built it when you look at the work involved this is almost two years worth of work by the looks of it it's mightily impressive to see how much effort has gone into it we've sort of touched on it but I think that's one of the great things about TPF is you can chat to these guys you know they're there you chat to the guys that worked on it like Cole mentioned you've got all the people we know and you know the celebrities within the pinball world but here it's you know chatting to these guys what have you been through to make this it's really interesting yeah I mean I don't know if you guys ever talked to the pinball amigos at pinfest you know I spoke to them and they were telling me about their game and I thought it was cool but I kind of felt their games were more novelty than pinball to some extent because I think there was one that had this kind of big house on it, I can't remember which game it was but you know it was hard to see how you would translate some of those pinball amigo games into a sellable game whereas with these games, you know, Friday the 13th, Motorhead 8 Ball A ball beyond I could easily see them becoming games again price points and details to be worked out but I was quite impressed by the readiness of where these games were again being at a few of these shows over the years the home booth section always felt like frustration to me because things weren't quite where they should be this was a definite step forward and actually pretty much everyone that I've spoken to that was at the show, you know, their big plus point was very much around the homebrew section. Yeah, I'd agree. And then I think, you know, some other things I wanted to mention is just going back to what I remember saying on the previous time we spoke, what I was looking forward to, was just wandering around with a beer, you know, soaking up the vibe, playing some games, chatting to some people and that totally was the case, lived up to expectations. Like you just get a beer, wander around, you meet a few people, you bump into them. You know, at one point, actually, I managed to go up. I think me and Davey somehow got invited up to like some sort of penthouse suite sort of party that was going on where they had some pinball machines up there and it was like, you know, a bit quieter and you could chat to some other people. That's game exchange. He does that every year. Yeah, so that was really cool. that felt pretty neat really good guy yeah lovely people up there and I think that was the thing I really enjoyed is just meeting other people like us and again I think I said this before that I was really hoping to meet some people that I'd sold mods to and stuff and it was like you'd meet people and be introduced it's like oh this guy does Godzilla and it's like oh you're the Godzilla guy and it's like you know but there's worse things to be known for I suppose but and then you just chatting to people and just lovely people, you know, from all over America and when they hear you're from England they're like, oh my god, you came all this way and then you sort of, you know, I surprisingly got asked about the Royal Family quite a few times. How weird. You're their next door neighbours, right? Yeah, I know, it's crazy. They kept saying, so what's going on with Kate? I was like, who? Princess Kate? So, you're more than a Godzilla.
    89:43
    Yeah, exactly. So it was, yeah, it was really nice. I thought the people that I met were just lovely and just, you know, again, chatting about pinball and then you gradually talk about other stuff, you know, just, you know, holidays or wherever you're going. And, yeah, really, really lovely in that respect. And that was one of my big takeaways. I was interested to know how friendly it would be. And that's one of the reasons I would love to go back as well and will hopefully go back next year is just to soak up that vibe again. Yeah, I think pretty much of the group, I think the overwhelming vibe is we're going back next year, for sure. I mean, so we're kind of running out of time here, and we've taken a lot of your time, and we appreciate that. I think, I mean, we did some other stuff. We went, a bunch of us went to the gun, some gun place. and honestly there was probably we went to this shop where there was probably more guns in this shop than the entire gun collection in the UK I kid you not I can't say so many I don't think there's any mini guns in the UK even a Gatling gun, you could fire a Gatling gun I mean it was scarily insane it's kind of funny because I did a bit gun shooting in Orlando where they kind of cater for tourists, right? But here, this was like, nah, we're Texas and we're armed, and if you screw with us, we'll shoot you. You know, that's the kind of button, by the way, you know, crime's pretty low in Texas, so you know, you might argue that it works because, don't get me wrong, I'm not a gun advocate by any means, but just the culture of it, and so Colin and I were there and everyone was like, let's get an Uzi let's get an AK-47 and I was like, let's just try the little guns first and let's see how we get on and if we like the little guns, we'll go to the big guns so we kind of split up into two groups and they take us through all this training, which is actually pretty good, but what was clear was Texas is much more like guns much more of a business whereas in Orlando when I went to the gun club there, they were like geared up to sell to tourists. It was very, very different. And, you know, I think in Texas they expected probably a level of knowledge better than what they catered for in Orlando. And I think one of the guys had done it in Vegas and, you know, felt the same thing. Anyway, you know, we take a couple of guns in, buy some ammo. I think we spent 300, 400 bucks, I can't remember, somewhere around that, for the whole group.
    92:41
    We fired off a bunch of rounds. Davey Bishop, God bless him, nearly killed us all. He didn't even point his gun at you guys, did he? Sorry, Dave. We had all the names for him.
    92:59
    In these places, because of the nature of it, If you point a gun in the wrong way, standing there, he'll just shoot you. Now, the best part about this was, I've been to a gun range in Orlando many years ago. You go to the counter, you say, which gun do you want in the cabinet? And you go, oh, I'll have that one. And he gives you the gun, he gives you a box of ammo, and he points you at a door. Now, they take all the guns in and all set up, but before that, we had 30 minutes with an instructor who was basically talking to someone who've never picked a gun up. Whether you pick the gun up or not, he takes you from the beginning. Now, for those people who's listening to the podcast and they can't actually see this, but that meant always pointing so if Neil's the person in front of us I'm chatting to, to show him the other side of that gun, he would turn all the way around and come round to show you the other side of the gun. Not go like this.
    93:59
    Number one, There was something like three, four, five important things you must do. And number one, never, ever point this gun anywhere other than a space that's not occupied. And he says, I'm using that socket on the wall. I'm always going to point it at that. So if he's going to talk to someone over here, he's not going to turn around and show the guns. In fact, he made a point of putting the gun down, walking around behind us, and showing to other guys. And again, he had to turn all the way around to show them the other side of the gun. So this was drilled into us time and time again. We walked in, and Dave, I'll go first, goes over, gets his gun. We'd been showed out and loaded, out of the cockpit. And he puts it in it, and he basically just turns around, and I'm Neil. and he turns around and he says, am I doing this right? Oh my God. To which I then dive, almost shit myself. Oh my God. I dived out the window and I was saying, fuck me, Jim. What was? For Christ's sake, what are you doing? He says, it's not what you're worried about. It's not loaded. Look. And he's like looking down. No.
    95:22
    Honestly. He looks down the gun nozzle. No, I guess he gets it out of the door. He's got a bird going hard. He'd emptied the chamber. And in the end, it's like, but then you've got to check everything and take the ammo magazine out. And he checked it and he looked and he could see there was no bullet in that. But he was still intent to say, look, there's nothing in. And we were like hiding around the corner thinking, Christ, he got known as Dangerous Dave after that. interesting. What was hilarious, so it wasn't funny, but it was kind of hilarious, so I'd just done my first bit of shooting and I was turning around and all I see is Colin and he's in his moustache going and it was like, and all this come up and I'm like, what the hell? And then of course Dave comes round and who else was in your group?
    96:23
    Scott. Scott was in your group, right? and then Paul and Anne they'd all kind of shuffled off to the side and I'm like what the hell's going on and then I see them and I'm like whoa Gabe it was hilarious and then I mean literally the guy went he had a word with them twice didn't he the first time he looked over and he was like and the second time he was almost crying because I turned around and I says mate I almost shit myself and it must have been just the English way I said it, but he was actually pissing himself. He says, I've never heard anything this funny in my life. But he says, I know exactly where you're coming from, because the amount of times they turn round to me and say, am I doing this right? While pointing a gun, trying to cop it out of them. And you basically get rejected out of them places. They'll not take that, you know. They're going to take them from you, and you're ejected out. So, were the people who I was going to say, were the people who managed the area then, did they see that? Did they see David do it? They did. I think they saw me flying across the room first of all.
    97:31
    I'm pretty sure the guy had a word with them twice and I think on the second time he was like you know, don't, no more No more warnings. Yeah, but it's the time that we ran out of bullets anyway. So there's a bit of a laugh. Talk to me though briefly, because I know we've got to finish this off very soon, but what was it like firing the weapon? The first time you shoot this little gun and they give you a they give you something like a 22 and you shoot again for people who's watching this they'll not say this but you know you see Arnold Schwarzenegger holding this Desert Eagle 50 calibre with one hand while pointing backwards at a helicopter and he's going boom boom boom boom you've got a 22 and the kick it gives you you've got to place one foot and he sure there's exactly how to shoot, how to overlap your hands, how to put your back foot out, because that's going to kick you. And then we went to a .38, and I was like, bloody hells bells, you know, the power that went through your body. And next, two doors next to us, there was a guy with a fully automatic assault rifle with this big, huge, it looked like a massive bean can of ammo dangling out the bottom. It must have had something like 40 shots in it. And he had his 14-year-old son shooting it while he held his back, and he was going, boom, boom, boom. The sound of this thing was like the biggest firework had gone off. I think it was a .38 as well. It wasn't a big gun, but... They're big bullets. I've seen the bullets. The bullets were about that long, and we were shooting 9mm 22s and 38s. But I was in the cubicle next to him, and I'm shooting, and all of a sudden I hear this boom. It was like that scene from Robocop where everyone's shooting, and then Robocop... And he's firing his gun. Everyone's like, what the hell? But I tell you, this is the thing about the culture. This kid, what, he was 10, 11 maybe, 12? I think he was about 12, 13, something like that. But he also had his daughter there Who I reckon was seven Maybe eight And she did not enjoy it at all She was crying But you saw This was the family being indoctrinated Into the gun culture Gun culture yeah And I was just watching this thinking Holy shit He can't drink but he can fire a gun Yeah I mean that's so ridiculous And you didn't want him drinking firing guns Yeah no But before we went in There was a guy, they've got this This kind of belt driven gun The Minigun And this guy bought, I think it was 200 bucks to fire it So this guy does It was 500 or 600 bucks And you got about 500 rounds That lasted All of 7 seconds Yeah, but this is funny, the guy gets it And he fires it He did not hit one shot on target all of them missed. He couldn't control it.
    100:46
    Crazy. So at the end of it, I went to Paul Silverpole on the floor and said, so you ready for a big gun now then, Paul? And he's like, no, I've had enough.
    100:57
    I bet it hurts the wrist and everything, right? We literally went in with handguns, but we could have gone in. I mean, they had fully automatics, they had sniper rifles. You could have shot whatever you want. If you play college, you eat out of every weapon. You know, they had, oh, I've had that P90, you could get from a grease gun, from a World War I grease gun, right up to the latest, right through your Kalashnikovs, everything. But this guy who was firing this thing with his son, the guy turned around and says, your time's up on the range, because these are members of this club. And he goes, is it okay if I just fire them off? He says, yeah, but don't smoke up the whole gun range. And then he picked it up, and I've got video footage in, just went boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom and this it was just unbelievable to see unbelievable crazy so the last thing i have to i have to say texas barbecue no like wow like off the scale well we went back a couple of times in week what was it called hardy
    102:04
    phenomenal food i mean i i literally put on like before i went to texas i was a thin guy It is insanely good. Look, maybe a little bit pricey, but worth everything. What would you say the people would like? I don't think it was pricey, to be honest. It was just pricey when you ate it. I mean, I'd put that as one of the best steaks I've ever had, and it wasn't expensive. The steak was phenomenal. And then the barbecue, you know, I love the, they do this kind of spicy sausage. I could eat it forever, basically. but yeah I mean like Hard Ace is always a great place, I went there twice I think during the whole thing one with you guys, one with the Triple Drain guys and it's just amazing food and Luke I think let's draw a line there guys but Luke I think the short message is first of all, me and I think the only other guy that's been to Texas this M Fresh Paul from the Forum. I think Tony went one year.
    103:13
    But, you know, I've been saying, you want to really go to a great gig and also take a bit of time off. You know, you talk about your family. You know, you hire a car and drive around. There's a lot to drive around and see if you want to go a bit further down.
    103:28
    Andy from... Andy Foster, he does that. I think he drives around kind of Elvis Land and Dollyland where I think he's a bit into that and drives up there's a great show organised by some great people and you know I've been going since 2016 I want to say and it's been running a long time and it's a fantastic show a few of us are going to Chicago later this year at Expo which is more an industry focused show a little bit because you're kind of close to all the factories and actually I'm quite excited because all the factories are opening their doors I don't think they've all done that so I've seen Stern's factory a few times, I've seen JGP and American Pinball but I was wanting to go to CGC because I think they've been in that factory since the Bally days so I kind of wonder if there's hidden treasures in this place Can I just say on Chicago I've been to Chicago but not for the pinball thing, I went to Chicago Marathon for the wife. Chicago as a place doesn't hold up to Texas. I found Texas friendly, clean,
    104:44
    you could chat to anyone, I'd chat to anyone anyhow, but my number one question when I got in the taxi after all this gun culture was are you carrying a gun? And they would say, of course I'm carrying a gun. And we got in with this eight-year-old girl and I said, can I just ask you, are you carrying a gun? she says no but I should be it's like everyone carries a gun there but in a safe kind of way you don't feel threatened in Chicago every night I was going to bed hearing gunshots I was getting up in the morning to the news with how many dead were that day now I'm not putting people off Chicago I'm just telling you how I found it every morning somebody was shot dead ticket sales and flights to Chicago suddenly sold out that's what I'm trying to do just to qualify that a little bit so look, we're in Texas, we're in Frisco which is probably, I don't know 20 miles outside of Dallas you're in downtown Chicago right in the centre of town where Expo is, is kind of I don't know, maybe 30 miles away from Chicago so you're in Chicago land as they call it you're in Illinois but actually you're much more close to O'Hare Airport than you are to Chicago It's a bit like saying you're in London and then you go to Croydon is that kind of thing? Yeah, without the stabbing so it's kind of I'm going to draw a line there guys because it's late Huge thanks to Paul and Colin Thanks Colin, all the guys that were there it was a great gig, really enjoyable I mean the other thing is we didn't cover this but I think everybody bought an insane amount of gear and brought it back you know there's just so much that's the other great thing is you know there's a lot of stuff there that you can see and buy and take home and also some prototypes like there's one thing I really wanted to get for my jaws they have this kind of apron that looked amazing but they only had the prototype there but I now know I like it enough that I might order it so but yeah look great show thanks everyone for coming we'll be back next month and you know we're starting to come up to you know it's kind of weird because last year at Texas Pinball Festival there was this kind of mad crescendo of all these games and then it went quiet whilst we waited for them to kind of materialise and some of them have only just materialised like you know In fact, Labyrinth hasn't really got here yet, for example.
    107:29
    So I'll be a bit of the same. And then, you know, let's see what goes on. Rumours of DPX's game Alice in Wonderland being announced at any moment. So we might have some news about that. And I've fixed my Cactus Canyon, because the part managed to arrive, for those of you that asked what happened to it. So I nicked a part out of it for Pulp Fiction and then replaced it. That's it from me and my great partner.
    108:02
    Yeah, thank you very much, guys, again, for sharing today. The only thing I wanted to just ask one last question to Cole.
    108:10
    Are you going to do your plastics now, or are you going to claim yours? I'm actually, believe it or not, I'm going to have my tea. This has run out far too long. I haven't even had any he's a picture clock as well man the time on it is way wrong it is it's like about half an hour daylight savings no it's not the time is just completely wrong on it I thought it was daylight savings it's half by 20 minutes anyway adios guys thanks everyone for watching click subscribe like give us feedback tell us about what you want to see and we will see you on another podcast soon thank you cheers man goodnight guys 5 4 3