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Pinball Roundtable Part 1 with Retro Ralph and Cale Hernandez - Episode 60

JBS Show·podcast_episode·1h 2m·analyzed·Apr 18, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.038

TL;DR

Kong media day impressions and Dune leak story; hosts critical of Kaneda's negativity.

Summary

Jamie Birchall hosts a roundtable discussion with Retro Ralph and Cale Hernandez about their Stern Media Day experience with King Kong pinball and a recent Dune machine reveal. The hosts detail a behind-the-scenes story about accidentally leaking Dune imagery, discuss Kaneda's critical coverage of Barrels of Fun's launch, and provide detailed hands-on impressions of both Kong (very positive) and Dune (mechanically improved over Labyrinth with innovative screen integration).

Key Claims

  • King Kong is a hit game; both pro and premium versions deliver the core experience without missing essential gameplay

    high confidence · Jamie, Ralph, and Cale all explicitly state Kong is 'a hit' after playing both trims 7-10 times each at media day

  • Ralph accidentally posted Dune playfield images on social media (Monday), causing a leak that may have accelerated Barrels of Fun's marketing timeline

    high confidence · Detailed account of Jamie receiving image from source, sharing with Ralph, Ralph posting to Retro Ralph Facebook immediately, subsequent panic and apologies to David Van Ness at Barrels of Fun

  • Dune addresses Labyrinth's design issues (hard opening shots, tight geometry, excessive outlane drains) and adds innovative screen-based shot integration

    high confidence · Jamie describes playing Dune four times and noting improved difficulty curve; explains day-night transitions and helicopter mechanic tied to moving LCD targets similar to Pinball 2000

  • Kaneda's constant critical coverage of Barrels of Fun damaged his relationships with the company over disputed content access

    high confidence · Jamie explicitly states Kaneda 'burned' friendships with Barrels staff; hosts unsubscribe from his Patreon on air citing negativity and disrespect

  • Barrels of Fun will provide Electric Bat with a dual-slot coin door modification for Dune to handle Canadian currency issues

    high confidence · Jamie texted designer Travis Moseman; Moseman confirmed 'we can make that happen'

  • Kong's spider toy is mechanically clever—the magnet pulses to animate the spider dropping, integrating toy movement with magnetic play

    high confidence · Cale explained the mechanic to Jamie during play; both hosts appreciate the design sophistication

  • David Van Ness and Brian Savage at Barrels of Fun are passionate pinball collectors who invested significant love in Dune's design

    medium confidence · Cale met them at Twippies tour; personal impression of genuine passion, not sourced from dev commentary

Notable Quotes

  • “This is a hit. No doubt in my mind this is a hit. This is a huge hit. No question that it's a hit.”

    Cale Hernandez @ ~5:30 — Definitive endorsement of King Kong from Electric Bat operator and Twippy Award winner after hands-on play

  • “I think we're the leak. We are the leak.”

    Cale Hernandez @ ~8:00 — Pivotal realization moment in the Dune leak narrative; sets up entire behind-the-scenes story

  • “Not good. Not good, Ralph.”

    David Van Ness (via text, relayed by Jamie) @ ~10:30 — Confirms that someone at Barrels of Fun was aware of the leak and communicated concern about its impact

  • “I'm taking a break because when I go on my lifelong walks, K.L. Hernandez, I want to hear positivity... there's so much negativity in this world, I just can't deal with it anymore.”

    Jamie Birchall @ ~23:00 — Explicit statement of frustration with Kaneda's critical tone; frames unsubscription decision as wellness/mental health

  • “You can be critical and respectful, but if you're critical all the time and it feels disrespectful, then I view that as negative... you're actually offending people.”

    Cale Hernandez @ ~25:00 — Articulates the host position: criticism is acceptable if constructive, not blanket dismissal

  • “When something goes out and just blanket this thing sucks, they haven't played it, they haven't seen it, I feel like that's bullshit.”

    Ralph (Retro Ralph) @ ~26:00 — Direct critique of Kaneda's approach to coverage without firsthand experience

  • “Because he didn't get exclusive content because he didn't get this, he didn't get that... forget it.”

    Jamie Birchall @ ~20:00 — Identifies the root of Kaneda/Barrels conflict: access and expectation management rather than substantive disagreement

  • “They really incorporated that. So that's seriously in like Pinball 2000 kind of stuff?”

Entities

Jamie BirchallpersonRetro RalphpersonCale HernandezpersonKaneda (Christopher Kaneda)personDavid Van NesspersonBarrels of Fun (Deeproot Pinball)companyStern PinballcompanyKing Konggame

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Kaneda's critical coverage of Barrels of Fun launch burned relationships; hosts publicly discuss and unsubscribe from his Patreon on-air due to perceived disrespect and negativity impact on community

    high · Jamie: 'he burned them for what? because he didn't get exclusive content... I think the way that that was handled is horseshit.' Hosts then cancel Patreon subscriptions live.

  • ?

    community_signal: Barrels of Fun leadership (David Van Ness, Brian Savage) perceived as genuine pinball enthusiasts who inject personal passion into game design; improves community trust despite leak incident

    medium · Cale: 'They're very passionate people who really like pinball. They're pinball collectors themselves. And I do feel like they put a lot of love into what they're making. I 100% believe that.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts articulate philosophy that criticism is acceptable if constructive and respectful, but blanket negativity without firsthand experience constitutes bullshit and damages industry relationships

    high · Ralph: 'When something goes out and just blanket this thing sucks, they haven't played it, they haven't seen it, I feel like that's bullshit.' Cale: 'You can be critical and respectful, but if you're critical all the time and it feels disrespectful, then I view that as negative'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Labyrinth design criticized for hard opening shots, overly tight geometry forcing precision, and excessive east-west traffic causing outlane drains; Dune perceived as addressing these issues

    high · Jamie and Cale detailed comparison: 'you jump on some other games... you feel like you're a good player. But I didn't feel like that with Labyrinth... the math geometry stuff is just tighter. Like it's maybe too tight'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.186

0:30
Hey, welcome to episode 60 of my podcast called The JBS Show. I am Jamie Birchall, and I am joined with clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. I've got – we'll start with the joker.
0:42
Retro Ralph, how are you, sir? I'm good. This was such a fun day, and I can't wait to talk about it. I know. It's such a good time with you guys. We've got a litany of topics today, okay? Of course, I'm – to the left of me, Cale Hernandez of The Electric Bat. How are you? Twippy Award winner. Double Twippy Award winner. I almost forgot. Thank you for reminding me, and I am elated to be here. How come I didn't get introduced as a Twippy Award winner? Oh, damn it. You are a Twippy Award winner. Congratulations, Breakout Star. Thanks. I apologize. All right, so episode 60, I've got the boys here, and we just did a live stream on Ralph's channel, and we had a couple hundred people come in and watch us, and we've talked through the game. Now, it is still up on YouTube. you can go watch that. But I think if we just did five minutes on this podcast. Just a quick recap, yeah. Just a quick recap because we've played it probably seven to ten times each, both the pro and the premium. And what are your thoughts, sir? I mean, I like both of them. It's, you know, sometimes when you have different trims, people tend to gravitate toward one or the other. I obviously love the fact that there's a Kong in the back. You know, that's pretty cool. And there's some other features, you know, like the spider, which apparently I was called out for not liking, and it was true, but now it grew on me and I do like it. It is very cool because Cale pointed out something kind of cool about that spider. Do you remember what he told me? Which part?
2:09
Everything he says is cool. What's cool about that spider is that the magnet is what's pulling the spider down. Oh, that's right. And when the magnet is pulsing, it's making it do that. So I just think that's a pretty clever use of the magnet, and it's a cool little toy. So anyways, I really enjoyed both trim levels of the game that we got to play, the pro and premium.

Labyrinth has a problematic left outlane drain design and overly tight shot geometry compared to Stern machines

medium confidence · Jamie and Cale discuss differences in slingshot sensitivity and outlane architecture; personal play experience at Electric Bat

Ralph @ ~48:00 — Recognition that Dune's LCD screen integration recalls iconic 1990s Pinball 2000 games (Star Wars, Elvira Mobile)

  • “So like as the helicopter, whatever the hell this, I don't know, dragonfly helicopter is going back and forth, the shots change and you have to hit that. That's cool.”

    Ralph @ ~49:00 — Describes innovative gameplay mechanic where playfield shots sync with moving LCD target; demonstrates technical sophistication

  • “I don't give a rat's ass. I'm doing it. I don't give a rat's ass. Let's talk the negativity you're tired of.”

    Jamie Birchall @ ~30:00 — Emphatic tone shift showing genuine frustration (vs performative anger) with ongoing negativity consumption

    • Dune
    game
    Labyrinthgame
    Carrie Hardy (Kerry Hardy)person
    Travis Mosemanperson
    Brian Savageperson
    Electric Bat Arcadeorganization
    NAP Arcade (Jason Naps)person/organization
    Rachelperson
    JBS Showmedia
    Twippies Awardsevent
    Winchester Mystery Housegame
    Avatargame
    ?

    leak_detection: Ralph posted Dune playfield images to Facebook on Monday afternoon; Jamie initially sent to Ralph from source; image was already of a released game (Labyrinth playfield reused as template). Timeline accelerated Barrels' marketing launch.

    high · Detailed play-by-play account: Jamie received text Monday with photo, sent to Ralph/Cale, Ralph posted immediately to Retro Ralph Facebook account, David Van Ness texted 'not good,' panic ensued, image eventually taken down after apology barrage

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Dune features deep Barrels integration of acquired Deep Root LCD screens in backfield; mechanical innovation leveraging platform capabilities acquired from predecessor manufacturer

    high · Jamie: 'They bought from Deep Root all those screens that were going to be on the bar. And they put them in the back of their play field, below the play field.'

  • $

    market_signal: Barrels of Fun accelerated Dune launch timeline following leak; shifted from Monday teaser/trailer rollout to rapid pre-order collection, suggesting distributor pressure for immediate sales capture

    medium · Jamie: 'They decided to move a little quicker because maybe some distributors were like, look, hey, you've got the teaser out. You've got the trailer. Let's collect orders. Let's go.' This makes sense. If you're going to launch a trailer and people are excited, give them a link to buy the thing.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Kaneda operates as marketing professional/industry critic; hosts note his constant critical lens stems from marketing executive background making unfair comparisons between his large corporate clients and passionate small manufacturers

    medium · Cale: 'He is obviously a marketing executive... ultra-critical of the company's marketing departments... you kind of can't compare that to like a bunch of guys passionate making pinball'

  • ?

    product_strategy: King Kong available in Pro and Premium trims with identical shot layouts; premium features are cosmetic/comfort upgrades (Kong backbox, premium toys, LED configurations) rather than gameplay differentiation

    high · Ralph: 'I like both of them... the essence of the game is still there.' Cale: 'they have the same shots. If you just want those premium bells and whistles... go with the premium. But the most important thing is you're not losing with either one'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Dune features innovative LCD screen integration with moving helicopter target that requires real-time shot adjustment; described as Pinball 2000-style depth addition

    high · Jamie: 'As the helicopter... is moving, you're trying to hit that, and your shots are moving with the screen... it really incorporated that... it's seriously in like Pinball 2000 kind of stuff'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jamie notes King Kong's color palette (lack of Empire State Building, missing black-and-white New York aesthetic) was initial concern but gameplay quality eliminated disappointment

    medium · Jamie: 'boy, I really wish it had the Empire State Building... The minute I walked up to it and started playing it, I forgot about it'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Electric Bat Arcade receiving Dune with custom dual-slot coin door modification to handle Canadian currency operator needs; Barrels of Fun capable of accommodating operator-specific requests

    high · Jamie texted Travis Moseman designer request; Moseman responded 'we can make that happen' for Electric Bat's dual-slot requirement

    • 2:31
    I could do either one, but I understand, like, it's cool that if someone has maybe a little less budget, they could go with the pro. And I don't think you're missing – the essence of the game is still there. So obviously we're at Stern Media Day, Cale, right? And today is the day that we got to play Kong. Right. What are your first impressions, sir? Man, I am absolutely in love with this game. I'm going to stick around after we're done and see if I can actually take one of these home. That's how serious I am about this game. And as far as like the pro and the premium goes, it's like just whichever one's open. Everybody is just out here loving both versions of them. They have the same shots. If you just want those premium bells and whistles and your budget can tolerate it, go with the premium. But the most important thing is you're not losing with either one, either choice you make. I think it's pretty obvious they have a hit on their hands, right, boys? Right. Oh, 100%. This is a hit. No doubt in my mind this is a hit. This is a huge hit. No question that it's a hit. So let's take us back to Monday of this particular week, okay? We're going to start off. We're going to give you a little behind baseball, a little behind the scenes with the two clowns here, okay? So on Monday, we get a text. I get a text from my wife and tells me that Dune has just been announced. And then I get a photo of the Dune play field, and I sent it to Cale and Retro Ralph. So what we're going to do is we're going to take the story and we're going to move it to Ralph. What did then you do? I immediately took it and put it on social media, immediately. Within milliseconds of you giving it to me. I mean, no. Now, there was no – in my defense, there was no disclaimer, don't share this.
    4:27
    But, Ralph, it was kind of a tacit thing. I mean, when you get something like that, am I right? Yeah. Oh, wait. Oh, you think I should have been – oh, so I'm dumb for sharing it then. I'm dumb. A little dead. Where did you put it? When you say social media. I put it on my Retro Ralph Facebook account. Okay, okay. Okay. But now keep in mind, this picture wasn't anything. It was a picture of a game that had already been released. Right, and the person that sent it to me said, can't wait to see you tomorrow. Because on Tuesday, out of the three of us, I was the only one that was able to go to Houston because I live in Houston and to go see Dune, right? So let's fast forward a little bit. And I get a text from the gentleman that sent me the photo, and they told me, take it down. And you were like, I didn't post it. I don't know what you're talking about. I have no idea what you're talking about. And he goes, well, Ralph posted the photo that you just sent. Take it down. Now, at this moment, I'm playing Call of Duty with him. Okay? And I go, you're not going to believe this. Okay, Cale? Go ahead. I tell you. Well, you tell me what's going on. I was like, what's going on? And he's like. I think we're the leak. We are the leak. There was a rumor that there was a leak that messed up Barrels of Fun's whole marketing strategy. And their launch day and everything that had happened on Monday. And there was this realization of like, oh my god, I'm the leak. At 7 o'clock, at 7 p.m., I thought, oh my god, I'm the leak. And then I felt terrible because then I did. I felt terrible. But this is how it went down, people. I did. So Rachel is in the room with me watching Kaneda's live stream. Oh, so later on in the day. So real quick, hold on. I'll give you a 20-second timeout on that. Okay, okay. Just a 20-second before we get to that part. So Ralph then takes it down. And I was very worried. You were extremely worried. Extremely apologetic too, right? Yeah, and he's calling me. He's freaking out. I was freaking out. Because we at this point, ladies and gentlemen, think that we're the leak if there is such a leak. I think we screwed up the whole entire launch plan for a game basically. Yeah, I'm laughing. And he's laughing on Call of Duty. So I quit Call of Duty. I got to go see if I can deal with this problem that I'm never going to get invited to media days for the rest of my life. Okay? It's over for the JBS. By the way, in between all this, and I'm thinking the timeline is right, I get a text from David Van Ness being like, not good. Like, not good, Ralph. And I'm all, oh, shit. Hold on. That's what the text said? Not good? Not good. I was like, oh.
    7:15
    So that further enforced that maybe we messed this up. Yeah, that we're the ones that did this, right? Right, right. So then, okay. You, you. No, no, no, no. It's not me. I have nothing to do with this. All you did was receive the text, and you did what everyone else should do. Right. Hey, that looks really cool. Okay? Yeah. Somebody to the right of me didn't do that. So anyway, later in the day, Kaneda loses his mind. Right? Happens most of the time. It's not. It's kind of par for course. Yeah. Our friend Christopher Kaneda loses his mind. I'm playing Call of Duty at this point. With me. Again, with him. Yeah, chilling. Just chilling, playing Call of Duty, and take it away with Rachel. So I'm playing Call of Duty. Yeah. You know, I'm headshots. Well, we're trying to level up our guns here. We're not effing around with Call of Duty. I'm 360, no scope, and Jamie's like, we have a problem. Houston, we have a problem. And it really was in Houston we had a problem. It really was. Yeah. And so Rachel's laughing in the other room. I'm like, what's going on? She's like, well, I'm watching Kaneda on YouTube on his live stream, and Ralph's in there.
    8:26
    It seemed like he was trying to set somebody else up like they did it. No, I was not. I was not doing that. Well, we weren't watching the live stream of Kaneda. Okay, we're playing Call of Duty because that's how much we care about that live stream. I was like, look, bro, I don't even know what you're talking about. There's no pitch. I just brought it back to David. I don't know, man. So he's on the chat of the YouTube live. And Rachel's telling you guys what's happening. So then that's when Jamie's like, hold on, pause. I have to call a round. I was having a good round, too, damn it. But you want to know why I think it was very believable that we screwed this up? Because at the same time, Kaneda was throwing gasoline on it because he's like, this is the worst launch ever. Barrels of Fun has their head up their ass. So then I'm listening to it going like, oh, man, I don't know. Someone sent a picture. I don't know what happened to that. And at the end of the day, the next day, I went to Barrels of Fun. I got to see Dune. They still let you in. I literally sent like 155 text messages to David apologizing. I couldn't apologize more because at that point I still thought that we did, which we didn't do. We're going to get to that. It wasn't us. No, let's get to it. We literally had nothing to do with that. Okay. I mean, I shouldn't have sent the picture. Yeah. And I probably shouldn't have sent it to you, but the person that sent it to me didn't tell me that I could share it. I just want you to know I am extremely trustworthy and I'm not going to give it away, but someone shared something with me at this very table that was ultra sensitive and it went nowhere. You're talking about the thing I got? Yeah. Nowhere. The thing I got in the mail. Yeah. That went nowhere. We still can't talk about that. Yeah. We'll talk about it. Was there any point? We'll talk about it at some point, right? Years from now. Oh, wow. All right. We'll put a timer on that.
    10:15
    No, it was – I walked in. I was very nervous. And David gave me a big hug and I went, okay, I'm still allowed. Good, good. I'm still allowed in the joint. But at the end of the day, no one messed up their launch. They decided to move a little quicker because maybe some distributors were like, look, hey, you've got the teaser out. You've got the trailer. Let's collect orders. Let's go. Yeah, which makes sense. If you're going to launch a trailer and people are excited, give them a link to buy the thing. Let's go. Let's buy some Pimple Machines. So anyway. That's business 101. A little behind the baseball scene for everybody, but I thought it was a very funny story. Thank you. Of sharing that. Appreciate that. This is what people want to hear. Well, it's just – with the three of us, we've become very good friends through pinball, and it's honestly very genuine, and we don't mean any harm. We just love pinball. He was just like, holy cow, holy shit, it's Dune, all right? And the fact is you pulled up a lot of pictures from Nap and some other things. Actually, I didn't – not to go too deep in it, but Nap kind of got pissed because he was like, that's not my picture. because I did incorporate it in a bunch of pictures that I said provided by NAP. And Jason got pissed? I think I might have got NAP in trouble. Oh, so they're sending NAP. It's like, what are you sending him? It might have. Actually, that might have. I don't know that for sure. So if Jason hit this, this is out of crew if there ever is one. Never ill intent. We just, I messed up. Sorry, guys. That was my fault. So it's all good. It's a funny-ass story. That's why I wanted to share it because it showed us this week, which is a crazy week for me in particular because we've got two launches. But thank God it was in Houston, and I really had a lot of fun at Barrels. Thank you guys again. And then flew out here, and here we are. We had breakfast this morning, and then we got to hang out with everybody here at Stern. Yeah, and it's been a blast of a day. It really, really has. So let's talk about some negativity, if we can. All right. All right?
    12:16
    Don't read my notes. I'm not. I'm looking at it. Let's talk about some negativity, Cale Hernandez. Are you ready? I know you're texting and it's very important. I'm doing research. Okay.
    12:28
    By the way, you texted. This guy texted as I was winning a Twippy. Literally, I'm like, cool. Cool. Yeah, well, I had to get Cary Hardy on. I got to move it on. I'm a producer. I was a producer. Well, we're not going to do that anymore. No, I'm not producing the Twippies anymore.
    12:43
    But I am going to host it, damn it. We just got to find a venue. Yeah, we got to find a venue. We'll find a venue. Yeah. let's talk about the negativity that we were laughing at playing a call of duty um our friend chris canada uh had a little bit of a of a barrels of fun meltdown yeah he did he did yeah he wigged out pretty hard but you're not talking about just that night like the whole launch the whole launch weeks yeah he's he's hammering them hammering but that but that's a shtick is it a shtick or is it reality is it really who he is man how do we know i don't know you're his buddy now you talk to him all the time who talks to him more out of all of us oh no question ralph right now you talk to him more i mean maybe but here's the thing like i you have bring up a good question is it shtick is it the real person i i don't know like i really don't know the difference between like chris and kaneda because i feel like a lot of his aura outside of kaneda is similar okay but then i don't you know when you're questioning like is the person really like that so i don't know like is it just is he not is he not letting me see the real person and he's just in full kaneda mode all the time i don't know i really don't i wish i knew i seriously don't know well you're going to continue your conversations nightly with him and you'll let It is not nightly. All right. So are you a Patreon subscriber to him? I am. Are you a Patreon subscriber to him? I am. Okay. I am also a Patreon subscriber to him. Okay. I think we need a cleanse.
    14:23
    Oh. A reset. I think we just need a cleanse. All right? What does that mean exactly? Here's what I'm pitching for you. Let's grab our phones and let's just delete Patreon from our existence. Like the whole – hold on. The whole app? Well, we could delete the app or we could unsubscribe. But I can't delete the app because then I still subscribe.
    14:47
    Oh, yeah. So let's unsubscribe right now. Oh my gosh. I did not know you were going to do this right now. But hold on. I think we should. Are you calling it maybe a break? You want me to take a – I'm just taking a break. I think I need a break. I think we all need a break, okay? Because in all seriousness, I think the way that that was handled is horseshit. And I'm taking a break because when I go on my lifelong walks, K.L. Hernandez. You want to hear me? I want to hear the electric bat. I want to hear Retro Ralph. I want to hear Loser Kid, Triple Drain next door. I want to hear positivity. And there's so much negativity in this world, I just can't deal with it anymore. You ever heard of the term cost of thought Yes That what you talking about Yeah It the cost of thought And you sit there and whether it like 20 minutes or an hour you listening to Kanae to just be constantly negative But he talks about – he's going to comment on – are you really going to post this somewhere? Because he's going to comment on this. I really don't give a rat's. I'm no – this is a JBS show now. I can do whatever I want. I'm not affiliated with anyone, and I'm doing it right now. Can I play the counterargument? Okay, please. So he would tell you that this is what he would say. We're too positive. He'd go yes. He'd be like, no, you celebrate everything. But I don't think that's true. I think we're able to be critical about something, but in a respectful way. And that's the difference. You can be critical and respectful, but if you're critical all the time and it feels disrespectful, then I view that as negative. Because now you're in a different space. You're actually offending people. It's a different thing. In my opinion. And I think he goes there, but then he backpedals. I'm not turning this into an entire Canada podcast. I'm going to do it first. No, but I think he expects, when he does that, Jamie. Are we going to do this together? I'm doing it. Fine. I mean, we're going to get like. But do I have to unsubscribe from everybody? Well, who else are you subscribed to? Well, just Canada and Kerry Hardy. Yeah, and that's who I am, too. That's the only reason I have the app. It's just those two guys. All right, we're going to give Kerry a pass. Oh, okay. Okay? I don't want to unsubscribe. That's what I said. We're going to give him a pass. We're going to leave Cary alone. I don't even know how to work this app. I don't even know how to get my money. Oh, hold on. He just dropped something like 15 minutes ago. Screaming, screaming thoughts. I'm not listening to that.
    17:11
    But see, Cale, I want to listen to it now. I kind of want to hear it. Here it is. Kaneda. You go to Kaneda. You hit these three dots. Where am I? Go to home. Go to Kaneda. Your membership?
    17:24
    Hit Kaneda. Then you want me to go to upgrade, right? Upgrade your membership. And then what? Edit membership. Cancel membership. Where do you see that?
    17:36
    Edit right here. Right there. Wait, wait. How long have you been a member for? Because I actually unsubscribed and resubscribed again. I did. So I'm only a member since May of 2024, but I was longer. I was May of 2024 as well. Wow, that's weird. That is weird. All right. I kind of want to listen to this thing because I'm totally screwing you up because I want to listen to it. You can. Did you do it? I canceled it. Did you really? Yeah, it's done. You're going to do mine?
    18:09
    He's gone. What was yours? Confirm cancellation. Wait, see, if you do it, then I can blame you. All right. Done. Here it comes. You really canceled it. Cancel membership.
    18:21
    Check it out. Done. Now you're going to feel this. Did you just notice that when you cancel the membership, it shows him in his hospital bed from when he got that surgery? But you know what? What he had in a hernia surgery. That's weird. I think you're about to get a text message because right now he's getting notifications. Does he get notifications? Yeah. It's going to be all in a row. Oh, no. Like something happened. This is fantastic. Oh, no. This is the best thing that's happened to you. Did you do it? No. He did it. I didn't do it. He did it. Yeah, Jamie did it on my phone, too. I don't give a rat's ass. I'm doing it. I don't give a rat's ass. Let's talk the negativity you're tired of. No, I'm just tired of it, dude. Do you know – I don't really mind. I think he's very entertaining, and I don't necessarily mind the negativity. He's trying to go back on this already. I did, and it's done. But like how many times do I have to listen to an incredibly wealthy guy complain about how he can't afford a pinball machine? I just think for me, my final straw can I just, real quick, and then we're not going to talk about it yes, go for it my final straw was just the way he handled he had, he has very good friendships over there at Barrels and he burned them for what? because he didn't get exclusive content because he didn't get this, he didn't get that, he didn't do this he didn't do that, forget it I think though, here's the thing and he needs to relax on this he is obviously a marketing executive, right? And I think for him, he's ultra-critical of the company's marketing departments because he feels like they don't have good plans and that they don't go out and look at the demographic and do market research. But the thing is, I don't know, he also works for a gigantic marketing firm where people probably spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the marketing services they provide. you kind of can't compare that to like a bunch of guys passionate making pinball right you know what i mean so it's not a fair comparison i don't think but also if he if he in his heart if he truly wanted to help somebody like barrels he could do it that's not the way to do no no like put them on blast 100 hey i've been checking my voicemails i haven't heard from david s what the fuck you know it's like seriously it's like he should like we hey let's let's meet up and like Let me help you guys. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree with that. Yeah. I'm not trying to, by the way, I'm not going against you. I mean, you canceled it for me. I canceled it. It's on me. Jamie did it. Yeah. Claim Jamie. I don't give a rat's. No, I got to admit, though, like my whole podcast the other day was about this. And my main point was that I felt that it was what I said earlier. You can be critical. You can have good feedback. Do it in a respectful way. Don't be a dick. And then I think you're fine because that's a normal way to interact with people. And you're not burning a relationship if you just called and said, hey, David, you know what? You could probably do this better next time. I'm a marketing professional. Here's how. That's a much more graceful way to handle that. Absolutely. Right? Yeah. You know, when I first saw Kong, my initial reaction, and I said that on the live today, was, boy, I really wish it had the Empire State Building. Okay. Well, boy, I really wish that it was black and white and it showed my New York vibe and all that stuff. The minute I walked up to it and started playing it, I forgot about it. You didn't care because it's fun as hell. I didn't even give a rat's ass anymore. Okay. I was like, oh, okay. You know, if I designed it, maybe I would have done it that way, but I didn't design it. These guys are experts and it shoots amazing. So that's how I handled the criticism. As I say, it wasn't my initial thought of what I wanted a pinball machine to be, but I'm damn glad they did it this way because it's really behind us. It's unbelievable. I can't stop looking at it. It is. It's awesome. I think, too, the other thing that I – I think we all feel this way. Like we're all – like we've met a lot of these people, and I don't think that meeting them makes us act different. I think it gives you the – it makes you realize that there's a lot of people behind these products that work really hard. They're really good at what they do. And so think about what you say sometimes and how you present the data because you could be really affecting a lot of the well-being of these people, and I just don't think it's justified a lot of the times. And the thing is I feel like you do have a lot of responsibility when you have a show like this and you build an audience because what you say, people are very impressionable. Yes. And sometimes they trust – like, hey, they trust your judgment, right? Right. And when something goes out and just blanket this thing sucks, they haven't played it, they haven't seen it, I feel like that's bullshit. I feel like that's a bullshit. You know what I mean? Well, we deleted it, so we feel better now.
    23:16
    I feel like a load just lifted off of me. I feel so good. I'm glad you feel good. Share that later with your wife. I will. I miss her. Janini, I miss her.
    23:31
    Okay. We didn't really talk about Dune, so if you don't mind, I'll kind of give you my – and you guys can ask me questions of what you thought about Dune. Yeah, we didn't play it. Yeah, no play. And you're getting one, right? The bat's going to get one. The bat will have one. I think you're really going to like it. One of the particular complaints that I would have on Barrels of Fun would be that when you first shoot the first ball, hard to find shots. Okay. Okay? Which Labyrinth was like that for me. And then Labyrinth is that way. Okay. And you have a Labyrinth now. I would agree with that. It's not – I don't want to say like it's a difficult – well, it is kind of a difficult game. But I think that the – you jump on some other games. I'm not saying Stern anything. And sometimes you just go up to it and you're like, okay, I had a decent ball because you feel like you're a good player. But I didn't feel like that with Labyrinth. I felt like I really needed to hone in like with precision how things are done. And I think that's because a lot of the math geometry stuff is just tighter. Like it's maybe too tight. I don't know. That's just my impression. I might be totally wrong. That's just how I feel about it. Well, I think one of the complaints on Labyrinth is the left lane, left out lane. That guy is a drainer. It's gone. I'm not familiar enough with the game. We don't have it. We never bought it. I think you would. What do you think? No, I just think the one thing that I do compare a lot to Stern because it's what I have the majority of in my collection. And a lot of times when I'm at the bat, I'm playing the newer or even the older sterns. There's something about the responsiveness of the slingshots where I know on a stern I can get like a roll on a slingshot and it's not going to fire. Their slingshots are really sensitive. So it causes a lot of chaos. And because the outlanes are architected or designed the way they are, it really does force a lot of outlane drains way more than most games. Yeah, and you get the magnets. It can be more than – yeah, way more than sterns. And I don't know, do you just experience that at electric bat? Because we make our sterns pretty active. No, no, no. I'm talking about slingshots. No, I feel like they play similar to my house. I have, though, like you guys do pitch your games slightly higher than I do at home. I've actually adjusted my home games more higher pitch because it helps me with tournament play. But I also noticed that the higher pitch, I don't get as much of that east-west, so it helps with that. But here's the thing. I have my labyrinth pitched really high, and I still have like – it feels like too much east-west traffic, and it causes drains quite a bit more than I would think. It's almost like the game is great as long as – you can have a great game on that, but you better be dead accurate on almost every shot. I think they did a good job with Dune of making it less difficult. So you think they've kind of like maybe improved a little bit on the design? No, I really, really do. I think they do have a good machine on their hands, and I was really happy to be able to shoot it. Again, I shot it four times. Am I an expert after four times? It impressed me in the trailer, and I saw some of the footage that someone had where there's something that gets exploded in the back. And you defeat something, and the explosion goes across the back LCD screen. So it adds this different layer to pinball. They bought from Deep Root all those screens that were going to be on the bar. And they put them in the back of their play field, below the play field. And at one point, you know, the spaceship that goes back and forth like the helicopter looks like? As that is moving, you're trying to hit that, and your shots are moving with the screen. So it's really, they really incorporated that. So that's seriously in like Pinball 2000 kind of stuff? Yeah, but not so much. Yeah, it's really wicked cool. So like as the helicopter, whatever the hell this, I don't know, dragonfly helicopter is going back and forth, the shots change and you have to hit that. That's cool. So that's kind of cool. It's very cool. It adds some depth, I feel like. It does that on Labyrinth too. So I know that you were saying you have seen the movie or you haven't seen Labyrinth. You watched Labyrinth, right? Oh, Labyrinth? Well, when I was a kid. Yeah, yeah. Not recently. Do you remember the guys? It's on the shooter rod, the nippers. Yes. Well, they have – like when you're playing the game, the nippers are like in the – it's kind of cool. It does add an element to it that's a little bit unique. So I kind of dig it. What I would also say is one of the things that I really, really liked about it is the day-to-night transitions. And I think you're really going to love that. I haven't even seen that. No, I haven't seen it either. Absolutely love it. So do you think this is what Jersey Jack was trying to do with Avatar? Yes. Like Barrel's nailed it. Yeah, Barrel's absolutely nailed it. But that's because they added a lighting system to this game, right? They did, yeah. Because Labyrinth's kind of dark, but this is not, probably. This is not as dark. Yeah, when you first step up to it, you're like, okay, it's brown. Yeah. But then when you shoot it, and then you get into a night mode, and the whole thing changes to a darker blue, it's really amazing. I'm looking forward to playing it when you guys get it at the bat. I feel like I can't really say whether I like it or not. Have they given you a time frame on when that's coming in? I haven't heard. Okay. But what I do know is they're going to send me a double-slot coin door.
    28:55
    Well, they need to. Because I can't – as an operator, you can't do a single slot. I know. One Canadian quarter, that shuts down the whole machine. I was having lunch with one of the lead designers, Travis Moseman, and I'm texting with him. And I said, Cale wants to know if you can put another coin door in there. What did he say? He said, we can make that happen. For me. For you. I really appreciate that, Jamie. So I made that public. So that's great. Thanks. Sorry about that, Travis. But I think we can make that happen for the electric. Yeah. I will say, though, like, just because I feel like I can't really comment on, like, how I feel about the game because I haven't played it. Right. But I will say that when I went over there, when we went over there and toured it for the Twippies, that was the first time I actually really got to interact with David Van Ness and then Brian Savage, right? Mm-hmm. And I felt like I did get this out of it. They're very passionate people who really like pinball. They're pinball collectors themselves. And I do feel like they put a lot of love into what they're making. I 100% believe that. No question. I know almost every person that puts every screw in that machine. And they're really nice people too. They're super great. Call me a show. I don't care. I love those people. And you know what Cale would have been super into at the Twippies? You like barbecue, right? Oh, yeah. The barbecue kale that they gave us was off – no, kale. You're kidding me. Off the freaking charts. It was Michelin-rated. It's a Michelin-rated restaurant. For real? For real. Kale.
    30:25
    Off the – it was so damn good. They were the fun guys, brother. Yeah. And they cut it up all in front of us. Oh, man. That was – From Corkscrew, I think was the name of the joint. I'm telling you. They were great guys. Yeah. I love David. I think – I know David. I know Blake. and I don't know a lot of the other guys you know, but we talked to them all at Expo when they released Labyrinth, right? And Rachel and I were looking at this thing and we didn't jump on it because they didn't have a history. And we've rolled the dice with games that weren you know Stern or something like that A little puny factory How that go Homepin Well we never messed with that But, you know, we were a little scared because I was like, you know, I met David and I was like, didn't he used to work with Spooky? Yeah, right. And so when I heard that, I was like, there's no way in hell I'm buying Labyrinth. You know, because we had a bad run of Spooky games. You know, constantly replacing boards and all that stuff. They've gotten a lot better, and Evil Dead is playing very well at the bat. It's getting played hard. Ralph plays it every time he comes. But also the – Rachel is an artist, right? She used to teach color theory and all kind of like high-level art stuff. She's one of the best artists in the world.
    31:51
    She didn't – not a family member didn't work at a cosmetic company. No, create shampoo bottle logos. He's going to kill me. I'm dead. I'm guilty by association now. No, it's okay. But the initial thing, and I felt it too, just the muted colors of Labyrinth. It's just browns and tans and nothing. And then when you have – some people say Zombie Yeti, his art direction takes it a little too far with color. I happen to like it. I happen to like it too, yeah. Yeah, but that was the first – but that's our initial – that's what you see. You see that. Before you ever play it, you see the game, and it just looks drab. And there's nothing against – didn't Johnny Crabb do most of that stuff? He's an amazing – Johnny Crabb did on Dune, yeah. He's an amazing artist. But who did Labyrinth? I thought he did Labyrinth too or him and some other people. Don't get me lying on who did Labyrinth. Okay, because I don't – yeah. But then – Someone will tell us. They'll text us. Yes, they will. Yeah, and then we see videos of Dune, and it's the same feel. And I haven't seen it in person. In person, does it pop more? Because Labyrinth does not pop. It does pop more. Okay. Honestly, I think there's these certain things that are buried in the sand and the real pretty art that Johnny put on that.
    33:13
    And that Blake did the – Blake Dumasnil did the side art and a bunch of different stuff. Okay, so you think they've kind of – because the back glass on that thing looked amazing. The translate picture I saw. Yeah, I know. And I think it's actually glass. All theirs are glass. They don't do translates, which I appreciate. I like that. I wish – by the way, if Stern could – we were talking about it over there. We were saying for a non-LE, like let's say for a home buyer who buys a pro or premium, if they had a glass, a mirrored glass version of that, everyone I asked was like, oh, I would buy that. I would buy that as an add-on for $250 if you sold that. Oh, for Kong? Yeah, like to not have a Translate, to have a mirrored glass. Yeah, that thing looks good. I mean, I would buy it. But the whole conversation went to like, well, but that would piss off the LE buyer, but not if their art was tied to that trim level, right? So you could get a mirrored version of that as an upgrade that's not a Translate. Just buy an LE. Or just buy an LE. Just buy an LE. I know, but what's funny is I don't know. I have friends that will buy premiums and upgrade them with every single thing, and they end up spending the same price as an L.A. So it is a little silly, and I've done that too myself. So we're in a crazy time here, gentlemen, when it comes to pinball launches. We have something else coming down the horizon. I don't know if I'm going to get invited to that, but we're talking about potentially Harry Potter coming. Harry Potter? I mean, not potentially. We know Harry Potter is coming. What are our thoughts on that? How are these Evil Dead, Dune, Kong, how are they going to all fare? What's your feeling? Best time in pinball.
    34:54
    Okay, so this is just my feeling. I really – and this has nothing to do about my trip to Jersey Jack and Jack being weird and making weird comments. Big fan of yours. Right. But I just – I don't feel that Harry Potter is going to do well. and here's the reason anytime at the electric bat we have a lot of people that come through the doors over 100 people every Tuesday for tournaments every day of the week they're in there and anytime there's rumors of a game or as soon as a game is the sizzle reel gets out there people won't shut up When are you getting Evil Dead? Right. When are you getting Evil Dead? When do we get – like multiple, multiple people. Of course with Kong. When's Kong coming in? Right. Of course. Is it really going to be Kong? Is it coming? I've had literally one person ask me if we're going to get Harry Potter. One person. Was that me? No. Okay. I don't think you asked me. No, I didn't. Yeah, it was another guy, another regular. Are you going to get it? Because he's like, my kid really likes Harry Potter. And I don't know if it's – we seem to be a microcosm of the pinball world, but the IP is just not exciting people for some reason. But a lot of people are saying it's like the biggest IP in pinball. And they even did what I asked them to do, which they told me they would never do again. The arcade version, right? They're now releasing an arcade version. And I think they're doing that. You know, if they really spent $4 million on this license, they need to recoup that money somehow. Big time, yeah. And I think that's why they're a little worried. So they're like, man, we need to release a cheaper model, even if it's going to be some kind of loss leader or something. Yeah. Well, who knows? I mean, we're hearing three different play fields. We're hearing three different potentially.
    37:01
    There's a lot of different rumors flying around. What are you hearing? I thought that I heard that the game will play the same. Like kind of like Kong where the basic layout will be the same. I think they might strip out the various toys. But they haven't disclosed what those things are because it hasn't even been released yet. I think that's what they're going to do. They're going to cost cut by like getting rid of some of those things. Because, you know, Jersey Jack likes to put, you know, they like to do the powder-coated armor. I'm guessing that probably won't be on there. They'll strip out some of those little cost things to get that $10K price. But what I heard is that it will play the same, though. Like you won't be making concessions on the layout. The layout will be the same. Eric's a good designer. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah.
    37:45
    Let's see what it does. I really liked Godfather. You didn't? I don't know. Man, I thought Godfather. I don't know if you're trolling me or not. I can't tell either because everyone I talk to hates that game. No, I'm serious. You can go back and listen to my podcast. When I played, Godfather was the first Jersey Jack I actually purchased. I thought that game was awesome. But it just doesn't freaking work. Oh, really? Yeah, like there's always issues with their light boards, and that's why I just can't touch another Jersey Jack. There's too many issues. They're probably fine for home use, but in a high-traffic area, they just don't hold up. Can we work a deal live on the podcast? Yeah, let's go. All right, I operate one game at the Electric Bat, which is a Big Buck Hunter. What the hell is it? Big Buck Hunter something. Reloaded. Right, it's awesome. It's amazing. Could I operate the arcade version of Harry Potter? You have to talk to Rachel about that. I can't make that decision. Oh, I think we're close. I'd love to have one more game in there. And then if it doesn't work out, I'll just take it out of there.
    38:55
    There are just so many issues with them. Let's try it. I'm willing to take the hit on it. We might do it. I mean, there's no risk to you guys. I'm the Johnny if it doesn't work. I'm just happy that I'm bringing this together. But here's the problem, though, and I get this because I love the business side of it. Like, I really enjoy your guys' podcast. I enjoy this because I fantasize about I wanted to have an arcade one day, so I feel like I live through you guys. And I go every week, so I get to see it and feel like I participate in the arcade. But I don't know. Like, I lost my train of thought. What the hell was I even going to say? You're excited to operate this. You're going to start an arcade. You want to start an arcade? Yeah. No, no, no. I don't. No, no, no. I don't want to start an arcade. I just like, it gives me a little taste of it when I do the operators. It's just fun. Yeah. But I don't know, man. We'll see. Oh, no. This is what I was going to say. Okay. I understand, though, Rachel's side of it because she looks at it and goes, okay, you're proposing you're going to put this operate this game and for you guys you're like you your space is limited yeah so it's like do i want to use that floor space for that game right because you guys are real you guys i feel like have curated a list of a catalog of games that's really good yeah you don't think you're gonna print money uh it it would for i think it would for like two or three months okay and and it always happens with jersey jacks the only one that it hasn't happened with uh elton john was was amazing it was a great earner okay and a great shooter yeah um and it had that updated uh flipper board yeah the flippers feel really good on which they did not have in in uh avatar okay that was not an avatar um but how sure are we that this is a four million dollar license That's just the rumor. Well, I don't even know. Yeah, that's what he's been saying. I don't think it started out like that. Okay, think about this. Before that, the biggest license in pinball was the Beatles. Yeah, one million. One million.
    40:59
    I think whoever, J.K. Rowling or whoever's involved, I mean, she seems to play hardball. I think she's been nickel and diming them. Little add-ons? Right, because last time I sat down, just me and Steve Ritchie were hanging out. I was like – because Steve's worked for every pinball company. Yeah. And I was like, how do you guys get around all the licensing stuff and don't seem to have the same issues that Stern does? And he said, man, they just throw money at problems. And so I'm thinking that's how it got to $4 million. Oh, okay. They kept going, oh, if you want to do that, that's $100,000. bucks and i think i think that's how if that number is true i think that's how it got there you know because i don't see how that license is is worth four times what the beatles yeah you know there's a weird um and i don't know maybe this is a way they get around the cost because this is a weird thing that a lot of people complain about and i don't actually i think your buddy is the one that started it and then i think people jumped all over it but um a lot of their a lot of their games that have movie assets you know how in jaws you're hearing the clip of the movie Yeah. I love that because it really sucks you in. This is the Kaneda thing. They mute their audio clips. Right. They show the video. But that does, even though I don't like to agree with him on a lot of things, this one I kind of do because I can't imagine Jaws with muted audio clips because the clips are so good. They're so well placed. It sucks you into that world of Jaws. Yes, 100%. When you play Avatar, you're like, what's going on? You can hear guns going off and whales splashing, and there's no sound. But do you think that that's a way for them to save money on the license? No, because they're not worth it. Then why not do it, though? Then why not show the audience? It just seems weird. I think, okay, when I went there, and Kaneda and I talked about this. When we went there, the different feel from when we come to Stern and then when we go to Jersey Jack, all those guys seem like they're in this really enclosed bubble. Like the way they designed the games was like multi-ball after multi-ball. It seems like they're trying to please like give or somebody there. I don't know where the direction is coming from. You know, at Stern, it's obvious, you know, George Gomez is directing this ship. And that's why all of these games, like they have the same feel to them. Do you think, though, that the reason why, because you're kind of onto something here. Do you think it's because the Stern – Stern is so invested with Stern Army locations that they get a lot of – I think they get a lot of feedback from players, right? What do you guys like? And I think with them, I almost feel like Jersey Jack, they don't really have a presence in – you know what I mean? They don't have a big presence. Like they're involved. They go to these events. They send you stuff. That's why I'm saying that they're in this little bubble. So do you think they're designing games for the at-home person and not the on-location player? like do you think that's oh i guarantee that's 95 percent but a stern you could argue like we were talking about today you can get on this and have a good time as an average player but if you're a good player you'll also have an amazing time you're gonna blow it up and do you think maybe the jersey jack doesn't think about the both players so it's just more of like a hey i want them to have a longevity of play because think about it you guys couldn't put avatar in a tournament it would have been going on some of those games go on forever there's no way yeah Guns N' Roses will play forever. Yeah, I'm not familiar with that one. Oh, you'll play it forever. Yeah, but they had to change the code so you wouldn't get never-ending multiballs in Avatar. And they didn't realize that until I started blowing up Avatar at the factory. Because when you guys were at the media day sharing that stuff, your scores were like crazy. Yeah, my score was like astronomical, and I got so tired of playing, I just left.
    44:57
    Hey, man, you take this over. over my hands are hurting he needed gloves jason knack challenged me to a game i was like yeah let's go and i just i blew it out of the water and i left with with two extra balls i was just like this is boring it just it just keep the balls keep coming i get another multi-ball another they did fix that though they fit they fixed it but you you have great people like keith johnson he's been in pinball for a long time like why couldn't they have figured that out i think it's Because they really need some other people to come in. Like at Stern, I know, like some of these Whitewoods that are back here in rooms that we don't see, there are certain people that get to see those and play them. Yeah. Some experienced players, some non-experienced players, and they get like real feedback. I think Jersey Jacks just really in this tight, tight bubble. Like they're developing in more of an echo chamber. Like they're not really, you know. I think it's kind of obvious. Yeah. The opinions of Cale Hernandez. I mean, honestly, you bring up really good points. Oh, he does. And I'd say they would, if you ask them who their buyer is, they're going to say high-end collectors. Absolutely. And you could argue, now, I don't want to make this a statement and say this is everyone, but there is probably a demographic in the high-end collector space that doesn't play their games that much. So for them, they don't even really care about these things we're talking about. There are people that play the games like 20 times and just never turn it back on again. Because you see them on Pinside on sale a lot, and a lot of them just rotate. but then there's the opposite of that I have a guy I just met locally you might know this guy and I can't think of his name for some reason he lives in Paradise Valley he has like 45 games in his house but he really plays like he a player you know so he plays his games So I think for him he cares about what what we do like when we talk about games but yeah by the way is it not like I mean we have a fricking we have a behind us We did talk about it, but we have one behind us. Uh, no, listen, I, I, I wish Jersey Jack all the, all the best. Okay. I want to, do you want to share, do you, let's just like, Kale thinks it's not going to do well. What do you think? I think it's – the IP has to do well. I just can't believe that it's not going to make a lot of money. I think that – But they already – they're already on the line for apparently $4 million. And now that they keep pushing back the launch, maybe that's the problem. They're like – so they're already on the line for $4 million. Sure. And you're still saying, I think this is going to do well. Dude, we need Rachel right now to say, Rachel, how many of these do they need to sell to make – to recoup this money? She's good at math. But how many do they have to sell? Is it even possible to recoup $4 million? Is it? They need to sell more than – like – Let's do some math. Can we do the quick math? Let's do the quick math. Let's say – What's the high-end model? 15 grand. 15 grand, 15,000. So how many $15,000 games do you have to sell to get – are we really that stupid? Are we – Yeah. I graduated from Florida Southern College. It's a nice accredited institution. Yeah, there you go. Let's just divide $4 million by 15,000. Yeah. And they need to sell. No, that's got to be 2,600. No, that's no, right? 200 S-Pi.
    48:08
    Hold on a second. We're morons. 266. Yeah. No, that can't be right. 15,000 times 266. And you're going to get your number. Yeah. Well, they'll do that. Okay, but that's just revenue. That's just covering the money. That's true. So that's not even, they're not making money yet. So let's say at a $15,000 machine, their profit is 100%. We should edit this part out. I mean, this is just – No, this is great. You got to keep all this in. I'm kidding. You got to keep all this in. Forget it. Let's move on. All right. My point – I'm not moving on. My point is I don't – the way Jack is talking about this is the biggest IP in pinball. I just don't see – I think they're in for a rude awakening. So I think you're saying this, right? You're like, look, you're not denying that Harry Potter is a big franchise, big IP. You're saying in pinball, knowing the demographic, you don't believe it's going to be this big hit because you don't feel like there's enough. I'm not hearing it. I'm like, I would hear it. I have my ear to the ground. Yeah, yeah. No, I know. And I feel like you have a good pulse on that. And it's already, you know, with the bells and chimes community, it's already getting a lot of static.
    49:25
    Oh, yeah. I didn't think about that. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. And, you know, an IFPA is all about, you know, backing that. So, you know, we'll see. Yeah. Good luck, Jersey Jack. Good luck. I guarantee you I'm not getting an invite now. Was that like a good luck? No, no, no. Like good luck. That didn't seem genuine. Good luck. No. I mean, seriously, good luck.
    49:53
    The invite will definitely get lost. Can I give my two seconds? Go ahead. I actually – so here's the thing.
    50:00
    We're not quite all the same age, but we're close enough. We're nostalgic about a lot of the same things, right? Yes. That group of people that would be nostalgic for that – because nostalgia is a big play in pinball – wouldn't be the – I mean if we're just being basic about it. I don't believe it would be the people that have the money that are going to open up their wallets unless you're totally banking on the fact that I have kids and I'm buying it for my kids. But I don't – I've never – like my kids look at pinball and will play a little bit. But I don't think I would go – if I went out and went, oh, I'm going to buy this Harry Potter, my kids are going to love it and play it. I'd be wasting my money. They'd play it a couple times, and that's it. So, I mean, I don't really buy this, oh, it's to introduce a new demographic. You're saying $15,000. Do you want to know what game has introduced a new demographic to pinball? D&D, right? D&D. Absolutely. And that one makes total sense to me. We are seeing all of the stereotypical D&D people, people we've never seen before in the arcade are showing up. We have two D&D machines, and they are loving it. The fedora wearers, they're all coming in, and we're like, whoa, this is an IP that's actually – A lot of fedora wearers played D&D? Yes. And here's the thing why I think that's so interesting is because – and I don't know if this is true. This is my take on it. When I feel like D&D, there were a lot of people when I was younger that played it, right? Yeah. And I could be wrong, but it seemed like there was this weird turning point when Stranger Things came out and they were showing – that was like – that show was all generations. It was young people, people our age watching it. Yeah. I think that reintroduced D&D to this whole new – and that show is gigantic. You're right. Rachel and I talked exactly about what you're saying right there because we're seeing it right now. We have never seen an IP bringing in actual – Different people. That's cool. But groups of people, like groups of friends, they probably all played D&D together and they heard, hey, there's this arcade down the street that has a Dungeons & Dragons pinball machine. Let's go see what that's about. And I think it did make the rounds in that community pretty big. Like you got to think that community has its own – like we have our little pinball community. I think people are like, hey, did you guys realize? Because I bet anything D&D they buy. They talk to each other. Yeah, they all talk. And so Harry Potter I don't think is going to do the same thing. I don't see families going, oh, there's a Harry Potter machine at this dive bar down the street. Let's get in the car and go check it out.
    52:33
    I'm interested to see what happens. I do hope – I feel like – here's one thing. I have a little bit of a soft spot for Jersey Jack because I feel like they've never had this monster hit, I feel like, that's propelled them into everyone wants the game. Like, think about it. Is there a game that they made outside of maybe Pirates of the Caribbean, but that one's super hard to get now. Because they didn't make enough. That everybody wants. Like, you know what I mean? Like, think about how many games you can say from Stern that, like, people are like, everybody wants that game. Or they're really interested in that game. Like, Jersey Jack kind of needs that moment. And they're, what, over 10 years into this. They need to have that hit game that everybody wants. And I don't know Harry Potter is going to be the everybody wants title. But I guess we'll find out soon enough. Well, good luck.
    53:21
    Good luck. All right. We're almost done. I think we – real quick. Let's talk about Stern, I think. Yeah.
    53:30
    They do things the right way over here, don't they? Man, they really do. I mean – They really, really do. First of all, they treated us wonderfully. Awesome. Yeah, okay. We paid our own way, all right? Right. Okay. But that means we can say whatever the hell we want. Right. Right? And they they bent over backwards to to let us in their room so we could have a Kong in the background. They didn't want us to leave. I mean, no, no joke. No joke. This is how it went. Tell it. We were sitting over there and we were all trying to figure out we'll do the podcast. And and and Zach was Zach Sharp was standing there and we were just like, hey, where are we going to do the podcast? Your hotel, my hotel, whatever. Right. And Zach just goes, well, why don't you guys just use the room back there? And that's – it was like – and he didn't – it was not an inconvenience to him. He's like, no, you guys go ahead. It'll be fun. That's what you're here for. Oh.
    54:20
    That's what we're here for. I think that's even what he said. That's what you guys are here for, to make content. Right. Make content. And it's been great. It's really – it feels like you're with family. And I know it's just like so corny for me to say that, but anybody who's been here – I mean – Everybody would say that. I think that's been here. What do you guys need? Like here. Here's some food. Here's drink. Honestly. Here's games. Do you want to go look at the factory?
    54:44
    They seriously roll out the red carpet and they treat you like a million bucks. And the game, by the way, is badass. Yeah, and the game is, yeah. I don't know if you noticed, Gary just passed by and he bent over to see us. And I've been hanging out here all day and not once did he say, hey, Cale, I want to teach you how to operate pinball machines. Here's my personal number, 1-800-KICKERS.
    55:11
    Oh, no. No, they've been absolutely lovely. Yeah, it's been great. And we do this thing real quick. We'll end on this, right? Ralph and I are a little competitive, Kale. Yeah. Okay? We're a little competitive with each other. Oh, okay. Okay? And this is the second time we've had a tournament against each other. Yeah. And we did it at the Wormhole Vault during the Twippies. And that was really cool. I appreciated that so much because there were so many cool games you introduced me to that were like one of ones or just very rare that you'd never play. It was a fun way to do a tournament because it was like, hey, we're going to play the most rare, bizarre things. It was super fun. Devil King and all these different things that we played. Terrific Lake or whatever the hell that game was. I wiped his ass. I hammered him.
    55:59
    Right? Because you kept changing the rules and you kept going to the best of seven. I was doing okay, but then when I started doing poorly, I was trying to change up the rules. And then you just whooped me from there on. So today, we doubled the backup kale. And we said, all right, we're just going to play five games on Kong. Okay. And first to three wins. And we tied at two to piece. And in the lobby, I had the worst game of Kong in the history of my – I just sucked. I got like 14 million. Now, I'm okay falling on the sword a little bit. I wasn't playing very good either. We were both playing like horse shit. Big time, yeah. And you know when you play competitive pinball and your entire group sucks? That was me and you like the last three rounds of this little round robin. Although I had a pretty – I had an okay last ball. It was okay. It wasn't like – So who got the high score of the night? I think you did, right? Yeah. Close to 200 million, 250? 260-something.
    56:57
    That was really – One of the – by playing it more and more, we'll finish with Kong, is we started learning the diverter. We started figuring out what the hell the diverter was to block the ball coming down the river. We started figuring out how to get Kong multiball by dropping the drop targets twice.
    57:20
    The spider multiball, you just kind of hit those shots a couple times. It kind of reminded me of, I don't know if you remember this because I don't know how much you've played it, but on Dungeons & Dragons, you spell dragon. Yeah. This doesn't have anything I don't think you spell, but it has the lights to let you know how many more shots you need before you're going to hit. How many more Kong letters? So it's eight Kong letters. Well, I was talking – not the Kong thing. I was talking about the spider real quick. Oh, okay. But the spider, it was – It's three, right? It's three and then – You hit three and then one more? And then there's like a red arrow that lights up. Okay. Because you were like, hey, I should have got it. You had qualified it. You just had – you had one more hit. I hit that red arrow. You needed one more hit. I think it would all went differently for me, ladies and gentlemen. You really were the different – that was the difference. That multi-ball was going to get you over, but it didn't happen. So it didn't happen, and I lost, and now we're one and one against each other. So we'll continue this rivalry down the road. I'd like to do this again. We should do this more, the three of us. Oh, man, I don't know. You think the fans would like that? I think they will. Hit us up on virtual at Mac. That's my email address, okay? If this is interesting to you, I'd like to do this again with the three of us. Hey, if it's on the table, I feel like I'd be into it too. Are we going to get in a little bit of trouble for this podcast? Probably, yeah. I don't think so. You don't think so? What can people do? I don't know. I mean, I could use a good ass kick, and I'm not going to get in trouble. Because you're getting a phone call tonight. We don't have a Patreon. I mean, come on. I don't have a Patreon. I don't even pay for Patreons anymore, apparently. Uh-oh.
    58:50
    Uh-oh. You got a call? Well, somebody from Stern's messaging me. Are we overshooting our – All right. We probably are. All right. Ladies and gentlemen. No, it's fine. Let's keep going. No, no, no. We're already at an hour. What am I missing? What am I missing, gentlemen? What do we want to end with?
    59:07
    Man, I think King Kong is the new Godzilla. You do? Yeah. Yeah, because we talked about that on the live stream. And go back and watch that on Ralph's channel. You and I were still on the fence. We need more time. I need some more time. I think that's what we should do right now is go play some more. If we can, I mean, we got them. It's right behind us. What time are they closing this up? We'll wait until they come get us. Yeah, so you want to pick up where you left off? It's time to sign out. Thank you guys so much. Do you think we should do this again? I totally think we should do this again. I think the three of us are brilliant together, and we have a lot of fun, and we actually are very good friends, and it is very fun to be here with friends. That's my favorite part of today. It's not only playing Kong, but I had never met Josh. Yeah. Okay. Josh and – well, Scott's not here. Scott. Okay. No, Scott's here. Josh's not here. So I never met him from the Loser Kids. We only had one loser here today of the Loser Kids. You know, I've loved Triple Drain. They were here today. Who else? Vic. Vic VP was here. Don's Pinball Podcast was here. Cool Toy was here. Erica. Yep. Erica was here, and she's out of her boot. It's kind of nice to see that. She looks good. Tyler White The real black Seth Rogen And that's how That's how Seth introduced him I think Which was funny He did Oh Colin We're going to forget everyone There were a lot of people here today And they did a phenomenal job Of moving us through And herding cats And having a lot of fun Alright ladies and gentlemen Thank you so much. I appreciate you. You can follow him at Retro Ralph. And Retro Ralph Live. Yeah, Retro Ralph Live and Retro Ralph. Okay, and where can they follow you at the Electric Bat, sir? At Electric Bat on Instagram. We're on Facebook. We're mostly on Instagram, but we have a really cool Discord that has like almost 400 people in there talking about pinball all the time. You joined. Well, the only reason I joined is so that I could join your Call of Duty. We have a private Call of Duty channel. It's so great. We really do. Ralph, are you in our Discord? I am in the Discord. Okay, there we go. I'll jump in from time to time, yeah. Do you have Call of Duty? We talked about it. You don't want to play it with me. Anyway, if you guys at home want to join our Discord, just go to the electricbatarcade.com, click the podcast tab, and then click the Discord tab to join. There you go. All right. All right, guys. Thank you so, so much. Appreciate you. See you, everybody. See you later. All right. Take it easy. It's been an absolute slice.
    61:50
    I love you.