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Ep 32.1: Past, Present & Future with Roger Sharpe

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 29m·analyzed·Apr 18, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.043

TL;DR

Roger Sharpe recounts pinball's legalization fight and his historic 1976 court testimony.

Summary

Roger Sharpe, legendary pinball figure and key architect of pinball's 1976 legalization in New York, discusses the history of pinball prohibition, his groundbreaking testimony demonstrating pinball as a game of skill, and his influential but now out-of-print book on pinball history. He provides detailed context on why pinball was banned (moral panic, not actual organized crime links), how the industry survived restrictions, and the personal circumstances leading to his pivotal court appearance.

Key Claims

  • Mayor LaGuardia banned pinball in New York in the late 1930s/early 1940s, along with jukeboxes and shuffle alleys—any coin-operated game—as part of a broader moral panic, not because of actual mob involvement

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe directly recounts the historical facts of the LaGuardia ban and explains it was moral/political crusade driven by concerns about children spending lunch money and assumptions about mob involvement that were not substantiated

  • The 1934 Bally payout machine marked the beginning of confusion between pinball as amusement vs. gambling device

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe states: 'In 1934, Bally actually created the first pinball payout machine. And I think the line started getting blurred.'

  • Early pinball games sold in massive volumes: World Series from Rockola sold over 50,000 units; Baffle Ball from Gottlieb sold at similar scale

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe provides specific production numbers: 'World Series from Rockola sold over 50,000 games. Baffle Ball from Gottlieb' (quote trails but confirms similar volume)

  • Roger Sharpe's pinball book took three years to complete, involved 5,000+ photographs (fewer than 300 in final version), extensive travel throughout Europe and US, and voluminous interviews; original manuscript was 300+ pages, reduced to under 100 pages by the editor

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe directly describes the book creation process: 'It took me three years to do the book... We took over 5,000 pictures of which under 300 exist in the book... The manuscript was a little over 300 pages... The ultimate manuscript was under 100 pages'

  • Roger Sharpe was working as associate editor at GQ magazine in 1974 when he pitched the pinball article; the editor jokingly suggested he write a book instead

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe states: 'I was living in New York at the time I was the associate editor at GQ magazine... in probably about 20 minutes I did a rough little outline... It's 1974'

  • On April 2, 1976, Roger Sharpe testified in NYC courtroom and played two games (El Dorado and Bank Shot) to demonstrate pinball's skill-based nature; he did not choose which game to play initially—the hostile council member redirected him to Bank Shot

Notable Quotes

  • “Roger Sharp is basically the Moses that took pinball out of exile across the Red Sea and took it worldwide.”

    Josh (host, Loser Kid Pinball Podcast) @ early in episode — Sets up the historical gravity of Roger Sharpe's role in pinball legalization; Sharpe humorously deflects, saying he thinks of himself as 'just being the father of Josh and Zach'

  • “I think that as things move forward with more technological innovations like thumper bumpers and electricity and back boxes, in 1934, Bally actually created the first pinball payout machine. And I think the line started getting blurred.”

    Roger Sharpe @ mid-episode — Explains the origin of the pinball-as-gambling perception that drove regulation; marks the inflection point when pinball became legally ambiguous

  • “I mean, seriously, really? Now, that's not to say that somehow there was not some undesirable elements that were involved specifically in operations on the street, but to assume that any of the manufacturers were somehow tainted was the part that I think, Number one, I personally found offensive.”

    Roger Sharpe @ discussing mob myths — Clarifies that while street operators may have had questionable ties, manufacturers themselves were not mob-connected; Sharpe documented this in his book

  • “It took me three years to do the book... We took over 5,000 pictures of which under 300 exist in the book... The manuscript was a little over 300 pages. The final manuscript... was under 100 pages just because of some changes that the editor on the project at E.P. Dutton decided.”

    Roger Sharpe @ discussing book creation — Reveals the scope of Sharpe's original vision and editorial constraints that shaped the final published work; explains why a second volume never materialized

  • “I wanted to capture the essence of the totality of who was able to play, who enjoyed playing, and the places where you could find it... look at those people there, look at that young girl, look at that young boy, look at the grandmother holding on to her grandson playing.”

    Roger Sharpe @ explaining book's purpose — Articulates Sharpe's vision for the book: capturing pinball culture holistically through photography and human moments, not just collecting images or machines

Entities

Roger SharpepersonJosh (or Joshua)personScottpersonZach SharppersonMayor LaGuardiapersonHarry WilliamspersonAlvin Gottliebperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Early pinball manufacturers (World Series, Baffle Ball) achieved massive production volumes (50,000+ units) during Depression era with minimal per-unit costs ($100-$125), enabling rapid profitability and industry survival despite geographic restrictions

    high · Roger Sharpe notes 'volume and the numbers were staggering back then' and contrasts to modern machines costing thousands; operators could recoup investment in six months at arcade locations

  • ?

    community_signal: Roger Sharpe framed by hosts as 'father of Josh and Zach' within pinball community, suggesting his legacy is being transmitted to next generation through his sons' podcast participation and archival stewardship

    medium · Sharpe self-identifies: 'I always think of myself as just being the father of Josh and Zach'; Josh co-hosts Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; Joshua digitizing interview archives suggests multi-generational commitment to pinball history preservation

  • ?

    community_signal: Roger Sharpe positioned as foundational authority and historian of pinball; his 1976 legalization testimony treated as pivotal industry event worthy of deep historical documentation

    high · Episode framed as conversation with 'legendary person in pinball' who 'brought pinball to the masses' and 'took pinball out of exile'; hosts seek his firsthand account of legalization story for the record

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Roger Sharpe's book intentionally captured pinball culture through humanistic photography and oral history (Marx Brothers Scrapbook model) rather than collection of machines/artifacts; sought to document social aspects and diverse players across generations

    high · Sharpe emphasizes: 'I wanted to capture the essence of the totality of who was able to play... look at that young girl, look at that young boy, look at the grandmother holding on to her grandson playing' — not just machines in museums

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.269

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode number 32 this is a very special number to me because growing up i was a huge fan of carl malone who was number 32 which is a hero in utah right scott sure so actually carl did a lot of good for utah he He was like any other prima donna athlete. He was always interested in doing what Karl Malone wants to do. So with that in mind, a legendary person in NBA, we decided let's get a legendary person for the podcast today. Right, Scott? Absolutely. So today we have coming live from Chicago, we have Michael Jordan who won six champion. Wait.
0:50
Okay. So we have Roger Sharp. So for everybody who is even remotely connected to pinball, basic background to Roger Sharp is Roger Sharp is actually what brought pinball to the masses. He is basically the Moses that took pinball out of exile across the Red Sea and took it worldwide. Roger, welcome to the show.
1:13
Well, thank you for the introduction. Wow. I never thought of myself as Charlton Heston, but I appreciate it. I always think of myself as just being the father of Josh and Zach. But partying the Red Sea, kind of cool. It would be impressive. I wish I could do that. So do I.
1:33
If there was a LaGuardia Sea, you partied it for us, right, and let us through on dry land. There you go.
1:40
Part of the Red Sea of pinball. Now, Roger, for the research of this interview, I tried to go through everywhere to find out a recent documented story of exactly how the legalization of pinball happened. And most people just kind of referred to it casually. It was more of a snapshot. And so I actually wanted to take this time to talk about the history of pinball. And so you would be able to put on record what exactly was going on and why it was a big deal. Because it seems to me that pinball, it's a game. It's outside there. So I don't even know why in the world was it illegal in the first place. Well, I think if you go back to the beginning, and we're not talking about all the way back to the beginning with Montague Redgrave's improvements in Bagatelle in 1871, But really around the Depression and the fact that you had these startup companies, D. Gottlieb and so many others that were carving out a niche, creating simple pin games, affordable entertainment for a penny, literally everywhere and anywhere that you could find games. And I think that as things move forward with more, we'll call them simplistic technological innovations, like thumper bumpers and electricity and back boxes.

high confidence · Roger Sharpe provides granular firsthand account: 'April 2nd of 1976, I ventured into the courtroom... There were two games that were set up... I did not pick the games... I got up and I turned to my left because El Dorado was the game... this fellow said, and he pointed very sternly, not that game, that game over there'

  • Roger Sharpe has interview cassette tapes from his book research featuring Harry Williams, Sam Stern, and others; his son Joshua recently had them transferred to digital media

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe: 'Joshua, a couple of years ago, asked if I had the tapes of the interviews... he wound up getting me to transfer them all onto a disc'

  • The 1956 Kieffer Commission and Supreme Court case defined amusement-only pinball machines and bingo-style pinball machines

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe states: 'the gambling part really became the cornerstone for the Kieffoffer Commission and the Supreme Court case in 1956, which actually defined amusement-only pinball machines and bingo style pinball machines'

  • His book is out of print and difficult to obtain; used copies sell for $80-$325 on secondary market; Roger has a few copies in his personal possession

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe: 'I have looked for this book and I can't find it anywhere... three used copies for 80 and three hard hard cover copies for 140... I have a few copies left in my own possession'

  • The New York State Association initially wanted to position pinball as 'the lesser of two evils' compared to peep shows, but Roger Sharpe rejected this strategy and insisted on a positive case for pinball's legitimacy

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe recounts: 'they held up these large posters that they had created showing the front of peep shows... you're allowing this in why can't you allow in pinball and i was just dumbfounded... if that's the position that you're going to take, I want no part of it. And they convened... and said, okay, fine, we won't do it that way'

  • “My inspiration for that, and I tend to be a big Marx Brothers fan, I was, there was a book called The Marx Brothers Scrapbook... wouldn't it be wonderful to really take that journey through the eyes and the voices and the remembrances of the people who shaped the industry?”

    Roger Sharpe @ discussing book inspiration — Reveals the conceptual framework behind Sharpe's book: oral history and memoir-style storytelling to preserve industry creators' voices

  • “April 2nd of 1976, I ventured into the courtroom and I am somewhat claustrophobic, far less now, but I was somewhat claustrophobic, much more so back then. And I was nervous.”

    Roger Sharpe @ beginning testimony account — Humanizes the historic moment; shows Sharpe's vulnerability before his breakthrough demonstration

  • “Really? And you're writing a book. Who's paying for that book? And it was, you know, stop, you know, stop attacking me. E.P. Dutton, I'm a journalist. I work for a magazine. I'm working on a book.”

    Roger Sharpe @ testimony exchange — Captures the hostile questioning Sharpe faced during testimony about potential bias; his calm, factual responses defused the attack

  • “I did not pick the games. Number two, I was very familiar with both El Dorado and Bank Shot... he pointed very sternly, not that game, that game over there.”

    Roger Sharpe @ testimony game selection — Corrects historical record: Sharpe did not choose Bank Shot; the skeptical council member redirected him, likely believing El Dorado was rigged

  • “I think because I was making them repeatedly and did it for the first two balls, it probably did not have the impact that ultimately the beginning of all three did have.”

    Roger Sharpe @ reflecting on game outcome — Suggests that demonstrating skill on early balls was less impactful than the overall pattern; hints at strategic elements of his testimony

    • Sam Stern
    person
    Rufus Kingperson
    Irving Holtzmanperson
    Ben Chikovskyperson
    Danny Frankperson
    Eleanor Guggenheimperson
    Eugene Mastropieriperson
    Peter Simonperson
    James Hamiltonperson
    George Delmericoperson
    Anthony Lucasperson
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastorganization
    E.P. Duttoncompany
    GQ Magazinecompany
    Playmeter Magazinecompany
    Chelsea House Publishingcompany
    Diniponcompany
    New York City Council/NYC governmentorganization
    Bank Shotgame
  • $

    market_signal: Pinball prohibition was driven by moral panic and political theater, not substantive mob/gambling evidence; LaGuardia's crusade was indiscriminate (targeting jukeboxes, shuffle alleys, peep shows, pinball) as part of broader censorship agenda

    high · Roger Sharpe systematically debunks mob myth and documents in his book that manufacturers were not tainted; compares pinball panic to video game panic (Ronnie Lamb), dancing bans (Footloose), and Elvis censorship

  • ?

    event_signal: 1976 NYC courtroom testimony (April 2) marked as historic turning point for pinball legalization; hostile council member attempted to discredit Sharpe's credentials before game demonstration

    high · Roger Sharpe provides granular account of council member challenging his impartiality ('Who's paying for you?'), then being forced to play Bank Shot instead of El Dorado after suspicious redirection

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Roger Sharpe maintained deep professional relationships with pinball designers (Harry Williams, Alvin Gottlieb, Sam Stern, Sam Ginsburg) and had factory access during design development; interviewed them extensively for book

    high · Sharpe states: 'I had access to all the factories at the time, so I was going into the various development areas and playing Whitewoods and offering commentary... I had really grown into having very very deep and personal relationships with Harry Williams and Alvin Gottlieb'

  • $

    market_signal: Early pinball machines were affordable ($100-$125) and rapidly profitable (ROI in 6 months at arcade locations); industry volume was staggering even during Depression and geographic restrictions

    high · Roger Sharpe: 'let's buy this pin game for $100. Let's buy this brand new machine for $125. And maybe we'll make our money back in six months... the extravagance that exists today and the cost of building a pinball machine... is far different with numbers of zeros'

  • ?

    community_signal: Roger Sharpe's book project evolved from opportunistic GQ article pitch (to gain pinball connections and acquire a machine) into three-year research odyssey with 5,000+ photographs, extensive interviews, and oversized format; editorial constraints reduced 300+ page manuscript to under 100 pages

    high · Sharpe recounts: 'It was purely a selfish endeavor' to buy a pinball machine; escalated when editor joked 'write a book'; secured E.P. Dutton after five publishers rejected due to Sharpe's specific vision (cocktail table format matching playfield)

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Roger Sharpe's son Joshua facilitated digitization of Roger's original interview cassette tapes (from 1974-1976 book research era) after tapes deteriorated; recordings include voices of Harry Williams, Sam Stern, and other early pinball figures

    high · Sharpe recounts: 'Joshua, a couple of years ago, asked if I had the tapes of the interviews... he wound up getting me to transfer them all onto a disc so that at least they're on proper media as opposed to being on ill-fated little cassettes'

  • ?

    product_concern: Roger Sharpe's pinball book, while authoritative, is now out of print and nearly inaccessible; used copies command inflated secondary market prices ($80-$325) due to scarcity; author retains only a handful of personal copies

    high · Host notes: 'I have looked for this book and I can't find it anywhere... three used copies for 80 and three hard hard cover copies for 140'; Sharpe confirms: 'I have a few copies left in my own possession... it took me three years to do the book'

  • ?

    business_signal: New York State Association initially pitched pinball legalization by positioning it as 'lesser of two evils' compared to peep shows; Roger Sharpe rejected this strategy as demeaning and insisted on affirmative case for pinball's legitimacy and skill-based nature

    high · Sharpe recounts: 'they held up these large posters that they had created showing the front of peep shows and their premise was going to be you're allowing this in why can't you allow in pinball and i was just dumbfounded... If that's the position that you're going to take, I want no part of it. And they convened... and said, okay, fine, we won't do it that way'

    • 3:17
    In 1934, Bally actually created the first pinball payout machine. And I think the line started getting blurred. And the concern by communities, cities, was that young children were spending their lunch money playing these terrible games.
    3:37
    And I think it built to some type of a crescendo back in the late 30s, early 40s, and admittedly many cities, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, and other major metropolitan areas, as well as any of the outlying areas, started saying that they didn't want pin games around. And Mayor LaGuardia, with a flourish, wound up chopping up games, throwing them into the East River and banning pinball. And I think that much of it was predicated on a couple of factors. One, that children were spending their lunch money. That was first. Two, that some of the games afforded people to gamble, which in all honesty was in fact true. Three, more importantly, I think behind all of that was the assumption that somehow the mob was involved. and I know in my pinball book I talk about a movie called Bullets or Ballots with R.G. Robinson and talking about how their nefarious activities were and I always found it somewhat incomprehensible to assume that somebody was going around taking collections with bags of pennies and going into, we'll use Al Capone because he was Chicago, going into Al Capone and dropping the pennies down and saying, here you go, here's our take. We picked up $43 this week from all our pin games and forget about the numbers that were running or whatever else was going on. And I always thought, you know, seriously, really? Now, that's not to say that somehow there was not some undesirable elements that were involved specifically in operations on the street, but to assume that any of the manufacturers were somehow tainted was the part that I think, Number one, I personally found offensive and was able to document in my book that that was not the case. But I think that the outcry really was the fact that, you know, these games became a place of congregation and as such, young, old, whatever, that something terrible was going on and they need to be outlawed and banned. And so that was the setup for it all. And the only analogy that I'll use for people who probably think of that as being totally and completely ludicrous,
    6:09
    I think about somebody by the name of Ronnie Lamb. And this is before you guys are probably born. But Ronnie Lamb made a name for herself when video games hit on the scene. and suddenly on Phil Donahue and other talk shows, she was commenting and lamenting that we were getting ready to develop and evolve a generation of robotic children that were playing all these terrible video games. They need to all be thrown out. And this is before Mortal Kombat. This is before Columbine and all the rest of it that wound up subsequently taking place some decades later. But I think that, you know, when there is something that has so much appeal, I think that adults, if you will, politicians specifically, wind up looking for that trigger point, that soft spot of what they can do to create a platform upon which to preach, regulate, legislate, and provide them more gravitas in the public eye. eye than they would have otherwise. You know, there's another analogy, maybe even better, the movie Footloose, that some people may or may not remember with Kevin Bacon. It was based on a true story. There was, in fact, a town that outlawed dancing because dancing was terrible. It somehow raised the libido of these teenage children. And oh, my God, we have to outlaw dancing or watching Elvis Presley for the first time on Ed Sullivan, where they blacked out the bottom of the screen so that you didn't see his hips moving. I mean, we've always been in some way, shape or form, a society predicated on censorship. And I think, again, without going too far afield or off tangent, I think that pin games back during that time suffered the same fate. so do you feel like it was more of a moral and political crusade than it was based off of the gambling and whatnot i think bottom line it probably was i don't think that any of the legislators laguardia included because if you look at some of the newsreel footage he wasn't just destroying pin games he was destroying jukeboxes and uh wasn't video games but shuffle alleys. I mean, it was everything and anything that had a coin slot. And I think that the moralistic tone of what was taking place during that time, pinball was just ripe for it. It wasn't as if there was a hue and cry necessarily from the industry. If anything, the industry just hoped that everything would go away, leave us alone. If we don't have these cities, communities, and towns to sell our product into, we still have other places. so it's not as if it's going to be completely and totally injurious to us as a budding industry. But I think that it was more that than it was the gambling part, although admittedly the gambling part really became the cornerstone for the Kieffoffer Commission and the Supreme Court case in 1956, which actually defined amusement-only pinball machines and bingo style. pinball machines.
    9:36
    Okay. So if it was illegal in New York and many of these major cities, it was still in the United States. So where was it? Like, where did people get exposed to pinball then?
    9:49
    Well, I mean, I'll speak for myself. I mean, I grew up in Chicago. I grew up on the South side. And admittedly there was no pinball machines. I, and again, in my book, I wind up taking people on a journey back in time where I was very little and out in California at a spa with my parents. And that's where I first discovered pinball machines. But I have an older sister who went to the University of Illinois and we would travel down for a mom's day weekend or dad's day weekend or some other event. And there were pinball machines everywhere. We'd go out for lunch and I'd play pinball. I didn't think anything of it when I'd go back home and it wasn't there anymore. It was only when I went to college in Wisconsin that I started really playing pinball.
    10:36
    So it did exist. I mean, the games were out there. Don't get me wrong. Whether they were at truck stops, gas stations, and other locales, there were penny arcades in some cities that did not have restrictions on pinball. So if you look at, we'll use New York City as an example, if you went out on the island or if you went down to New Jersey, you could find pinball machines. It just wasn't in the city proper, although it was. But unless you encountered someplace, either by mistake or happenstance, by and large, pinball machines just didn't exist. So it's not to assume that the entire country was blanketed with this restriction. Far from it. There were towns, communities. Now that we're post-World War II, the emerging suburbs of major cities did have places where people could find a pinball machine or two or three. And specifically, if you're looking at Chicago and east of the Mississippi, bars and taverns most definitely had a pinball machine. You know, there were no widescreen TVs set up to watch sporting events. There was probably a pool table, a dart, a jukebox, a payphone and a pinball machine for all their patrons to enjoy. The idea being if we have something there for them, maybe they will stay longer and come back more often rather than just sitting at the bar. so how did pinball companies i i mean we talk about you know the numbers being like three to five thousand or whatnot for today's standards for a pinball machine being manufactured but during those times it seemed like they produced a lot more um where i guess you kind of answer where the market was but do you know how they kind of i guess weathered that economic storm during those times? Well, I mean, you had companies, let's go back to the mid-1930s and early 1930s. You were looking at a still embryonic industry that was feeding a society that had never had this before. You know, the old penny arcades featuring mutoscopes and other things suddenly had these pin games. World Series from Rockola sold over 50,000 games. Baffle Ball from Gottlieb So the comparable number, because you were suddenly seeding that marketplace and asking the question as to how everybody survived. The volume and the numbers were staggering back then. You know, the only thing that really stopped it all was World War Two.
    13:23
    And, you know, the fact that you didn't have three major metropolitan areas, Los Angeles, Chicago and New York, allowing pinball did not mean that you couldn't play pinball machines, I guess, in Houston, Texas, or in Atlanta, or in New Orleans, or, you know, any other major metropolitan areas. So, you know, I think that to answer the question in a better fashion, it wasn't as if they needed to weather the storm. It was really just a question of trying to be practical in regard to their business operations, having their salespeople and their distributors being able to place games out there in locations with operators and just maintain those games. So it really was not a problem. And if you look at the production numbers that I know Jay Stafford has been very meticulous in providing through the Internet Pinball database, the numbers were fine in regard to the cost to design develop and manufacture. You know, let's be honest. The extravagance that exists today and the cost of building a pinball machine and the net cost back to a potential purchaser is far different with numbers of zeros compared to let's buy this pin game for $100.
    14:46
    Let's buy this brand new machine for $125. And maybe we'll make our money back in six months. you know it wasn't a question of spending thousands upon thousands of dollars does that make sense at all in the scheme of things yeah okay yeah and roger you have mentioned your book a few times now i have looked for this book and i can't find it anywhere i i've even looked on amazon and there's three used copies for 80 and three hard hard cover copies for 140 so how can we get a hold of this book? I guess where you just went. I know that at Expo and some other events over the years, I have actually signed library copies, I hate to say, and others where somebody has said to me, here, I was able to get this one for $325. And it's like, are you kidding me? Seriously? So yeah, I will share with everybody. I hate to say it, but I've actually written other books as well. And I think it was last year for Zachary's birthday. I was asking, I said, well, you have a copy of the pinball book, don't you? And he said, no, I don't. Are you serious? And I actually have a few copies left in my own possession. And I wound up digging one out and giving it to Zachary so that he has it. But yeah, you know, I never thought that, number one that the book would have such a lasting endurance.
    16:21
    I am amazed and flattered, humbled, but when I hear what the prices are for some of them, trust me. I think that it's crazy and outlandish, but what can I say? It's the best way to do it if you really want the book.
    16:41
    I've talked to people over the years about redoing the book. There has been discussions to maybe do, how about volume two?
    16:54
    Come on, Roger. And it's like, it took me three years to do the book. I had the ability and the opportunity, along with a spectacular photographer in James Hamilton, to travel literally around Europe and throughout the United States taking pictures. We took over 5,000 pictures of which under 300 exist in the book, interviews that were voluminous.
    17:19
    The book, in all honesty, had a – the manuscript was a little over 300 pages. The final manuscript, and it's a long story. We don't have to dwell on it, the pain and the anguish. The ultimate manuscript was under 100 pages just because of some changes that the editor on the project at E.P. Dutton decided. So I poured my heart and soul into it. The idea of doing a second volume when it came up, I don't know, let's say 30 years ago.
    17:54
    The idea of going back out and traveling, by then so many of the arcades and game rooms had closed. There was not the same level of proliferation. And it was, you know, comments were made. well just put brochures in pictures of that and it's like no that's not the way that i do it i mean i take nothing away from any of the other folks who have done books on pinball machines but you know it has to be the same it just can't be somebody's collection in a museum i want it to be in places that are obscure where you turn the page and it's like oh my god it's in a laundromat look at that, look at those people there, look at that young girl, look at that young boy, look at the grandmother holding on to her grandson playing. I mean, I wanted to capture the essence of the totality of who was able to play, who enjoyed playing, and the places where you could find it. That was really the defining part, as well as bringing life and image to the people behind the scenes. and the idea of kind of, you know, starting it all over. And then people said, well, just add on to the book.
    19:07
    Update it. It's from 1977. Come on. Ten years have passed. Twenty years have passed. Add more. And I actually did reach out. The book was actually printed by a Japanese company called Dinipon.
    19:24
    And I did call them to see if they still had the dead matter, because all the rights reverted back to me.
    19:31
    And I probably waited a couple of decades too long because they did not have anything. So that was the closest that I wound up getting. And Joshua, a couple of years ago, asked if I had the tapes of the interviews.
    19:48
    And I said, yeah. Do they play or whatever? I don't know. I haven't put them into my cassette recorder for a few decades. So he wound up getting me to transfer them all onto a disc so that at least they're on proper media as opposed to being on ill-fated little cassettes. and I know that I think a couple of them I did with well mine just went blank don't tell me Mr. Shivers, Nate so we did a couple of them where we allowed people to actually hear how Harry Williams talked or Sam Stern and a couple of others and I know there's still more to go through And, you know, there's been discussions about putting it into some digital form in some way, shape or form. And. I don't know, I guess my feeling is I'll be up to the boys after I'm long gone to kind of do whatever they want with it. Probably not the answer that you wanted when you first asked, how do I get the book? Well, I was hoping you said I have a digital copy right here and I'm about to release it on Amazon and so you can download it on your Kindle. But yeah, right. Yeah, no, no, it's all in my archives or as my sons like to think I'm a hoarder. And I said, I think of me as an archivist. There's lots of stuff here for you guys to go through. You're all of a sudden you're a museum curator, a personal museum.
    21:29
    Yes. I mean, maybe I'm the strong museum West. I don't know. Maybe something like that. and maybe ultimately that will be you know how i'll bequeath all of the stuff that i do have because my files are fairly extensive to say the least you wrote the book shortly after you made the shot everyone knows and if i remember correctly it wasn't just one shot correct you got it so take us through the history yeah scott and i were talking about this we're like We don't know if we've ever actually heard the story of how you even got contacted to do this. And then I know that you've told the story of actually making the shot, but just kind of the events leading up to it and what got you through it after that. Okay Well I was living in New York At the time I was the associate editor at GQ magazine There were a couple of spots that I had found in the village and elsewhere where I could play pinball Otherwise, because I had started doing game reviews for Playmeter magazine, which was one of the point-operated amusement game trade magazines at the time, And I'd travel down to the distributorships in New Jersey or on the west side of New York to see the new games and then review them and what have you.
    22:56
    And, you know, being a Midwesterner, I did have a car in New York City, which was somewhat insane, but also being able to leave the city to go out and play. And that became somewhat tedious, overwhelming. and I wanted to play pinball. And I thought, if I do an article for GQ on pinball, I will be able to meet the right people and buy a game. It was purely a selfish endeavor. And I mentioned it to the editor.
    23:36
    It's 1974. We were beginning to plan out what was going to be this luxurious end-of-the-year extravaganza for the winter issue of 1975. And you have long lead times in the world of magazines, at least monthlies. And I went to the New York City Library to start doing my research. and went into the stacks and looked up pinball, nothing, flippers, tilt. I mean, any word that I could think of and, oh, my God, there's no books on the subject.
    24:14
    And I thought, I am screwed. There had been one article that had been published in 1972, and I forget if it was either Esquire or Playboy, by Anthony Lucas. and the game featured in there, which gives you a time frame, was actually Fireball from Bali. And I went back to the editor and I said, well, it's going to be a little bit more difficult for me to write the feature I want to write. And his comment offhandedly was, well, you think you know so much, write a book. And he laughed and I went around the corner to my office and it was like, OK. and I called my sister who was living in the city, actually working at Simon & Schuster, I think at that time, or maybe she was still in advertising at Burson Marsteller, and she gave me the name of a publisher, Chelsea House Publishing, and I called up the editor-in-chief and set up a meeting, And thank God my editor was there with me, one of my associates working with me, copy editor, Peter Simon, I will name him. And Peter said, what are you taking with you to the meeting? And it's like, huh? You got to take something. He said, you know, you have some of those flyers that you got. OK, I can take some flyers, I guess. and you've got to do an outline and in probably about 20 minutes I did a rough little outline of what the book would be and I went with about three or four game brochures, just one little piece of paper that I probably actually have somewhere because I tend not to throw anything out that outlined everything and I wound up sitting down and meeting with the publisher and walked out an hour later with a contract to do the book and I called up my sister somewhat frantically saying, hi, I have a contract. I don't know what to do. Well, you need an attorney. Okay, thank you.
    26:18
    And she gave me the name of an attorney, and I wound up setting up a meeting with the attorney, and I went in and met with him, and I showed him the contract, and he reviewed it, and he said, looks okay to me. Is that going to be enough money?
    26:31
    I don't know. Well, you need an agent. Okay. I mean, I'm going through these phases and stages. And ultimately what wound up happening was we kind of went far afield for the feature that ultimately ran in the winter issue of GQ, which embraced not only pinball machines, but an advanced look at the future. The advanced look at the future was laser disc players and large screen TVs. And I think I actually put in an eight player indie racing video game from Atari that people could buy for their homes. I mean, outrageous stuff. From that and having then at that point in time secured an agreement with E.P. Dutton to do the book after actually dealing with five other major publishers who all said yes, but did not have the same vision that I had for a book. I want an oversized cocktail table book, and it has to be these kinds of dimensions so it fits a play field, full size.
    27:35
    And I want it to be this chronicle of the history of pinball. I want to do interviews. You know, my inspiration for that, and I tend to be a big Marx Brothers fan, I was, there was a book called The Marx Brothers Scrapbook. And if you look at it, The Marx Brothers Scrapbook is really based on interviews with the brothers. and family members kind of recounting from their start as minis boys on through. And I thought, wouldn't it be wonderful to really take that journey through the eyes and the voices and the remembrances of the people who shaped the industry? So that was the premise. And E.P. Dutton at that point in time got it before they shifted gears on me. But with James Hamilton becoming my photographer for the GQ feature, that led to George Delmerico, who was at that time the art director for the arts and leisure section at the New York Times, for me to do a piece that was featured end of the year in the New York Times on pinball. And at that point in time, I had already been to a couple of conventions. People kind of knew who I was, what I was doing. At that point in time, I was somewhat of an accomplished player, a show-off. I had some incredible mad skills.
    29:02
    And the New York Amusement Association contacted me because they were getting ready to launch a whole new initiative to try to overturn the law that had been on the books since 1941 and asked if I would be willing to testify as well as demonstrate that pinball was a game of skill. And so they knew about you because of your book that you were writing or because of your playing?
    29:32
    They knew about me because of the book that I was writing and doing research for. The fact that, yes, I had already garnered some acclaim as being this exceptional pinball player. I had access to all the factories at the time, so I was going into the various development areas and playing Whitewoods and offering commentary of what I thought about a game or how would I change it or whatever else. So my reputation, I guess, preceded me as being this young whippersnapper who had all of these credentials, if you will. I will get into a little bit of the background story without hopefully offending anybody. But at the time with the New York State Association, and it was Irving Holtzman, Ben Chikovsky. Their PR person was a fellow by the name of Danny Frank. And I went to their offices, which I think were on 57th Street in New York. and they held up these large posters that they had created showing the front of peep shows and other adult venues and their premise was going to be you're allowing this in why can't you allow in pinball and i was just dumbfounded at that point in time having been around things for a couple of years i had really grown into having very very deep and i believe very personal relationships with Harry Williams and Alvin Gottlieb and Sam Stern and Sam Ginsburg and the design, everybody.
    31:16
    And I felt really, you know, you're going to put pinball in this position as to what it's the lesser of two evils. I said, if that's the position that you're going to take, I want no part of it.
    31:29
    And they convened for a couple of moments and said, okay, fine, we won't do it that way. We'll follow your lead. And I said, good. I mean, And I've traveled around. I've talked to these people. I have hours upon hours of interviews and research that I've done and gone through files and microfiche and what have you. I'm still working on compiling this, you know, this book, this epic.
    31:55
    And I said, you know, we don't have to do that. And they said, OK. And the rest, as they say, took place. I mean, April 2nd of 1976, I ventured into the courtroom and I am somewhat claustrophobic, far less now, but I was somewhat claustrophobic, much more so back then. And I was nervous.
    32:19
    I'm going to be in a position sitting in a chair. What happens if I have to go to the bathroom? I'm trapped. and Rufus King, an incredible attorney representing both Gottlieb and Williams back in 1956, came over to me and said, relax. If you feel uncomfortable, you can take a break. You're not locked in there. I said, but still. He said, plus you're going to be talking about things that you know everything about. It's going to be fine. Just calm down. and I think the turning point for me was when I was sworn in and the first questions asked were, so who's paying for you to be here? I'm sorry, what? Which company do you work for? Huh? I mean, there's a picture, I think everybody or most people know that picture, the gruff gentleman to my left, I think, if I'm not mistaken from memory, with the gray suit and the white hair and the kind of more cherubic face. Yep, he's right there. Was the head of the city council. And Eugene Mastropieri was one of the members of the city council. He was the one, as a councilman, who had advanced the new law that was going to be voted on. And Eleanor Guggenheim was the commissioner of consumer affairs who felt proactively, let's make this change. You know, the time has come. So everybody was kind of like there for it, except for this fellow.
    33:53
    And he was the one that was kind of lumbasting me and any kind of nervousness that I felt suddenly dissipated and totally disappeared. It was like, really? And you're writing a book. Who's paying for that book? And it was, you know, stop, you know, stop attacking me. E.P. Dutton, I'm a journalist. I work for a magazine. I'm working on a book. and kind of went through that process from that point forward to provide my testimony, if you will.
    34:25
    There were two games that were set up, and different than what some people have speculated or written or what have you. Number one, I did not pick the games. Number two, I was very familiar with both El Dorado and Bank Shot. Number three, when I went to go play the game, it was I think the description was, you know, now it's time for you to play. And I got up and I turned to my left because El Dorado was the game that had been set up for me to play. And this fellow said, and he pointed very sternly, not that game, that game over there. and all the camera crews from the local media and everything else had to stop. There was a recess where they had to move over. And I think truly he probably thought that El Dorado was rigged.
    35:22
    And the game over there that nobody was paying attention to, we'll use that one. And let's face it, it's a pinball machine. If something breaks, there was a backup. And truly it did not matter to me. In retrospect, it was probably better that it was bank shot because at least thematically I was able to kind of walk through and talk through the game, design from the standpoint of geometry, what the rules and objectives were. It's a pool game. All of these targets and switches and areas correspond to various pool balls. I need to get all of these shots so that I'm completing the rack of pool balls. Pure and simple. If it had been Eldorado, it's a spell-out game. I mean, I would have still been able to come up with an approach that I think would have fundamentally been hopefully as successful.
    36:14
    So, you know, plunge the first ball. I'm talking as I'm playing. The ball comes down to a flipper. I cradle it, and it's like, okay, I want to make that shot for the 15. Make the shot. Ball comes back. Okay, that kick-out hole up on the top is now lit. I need to make that shot because I'm going to score extra points or collect a bonus, whatever it was. So forgive the inability to remember precisely and exactly how the game scores, but I was cradling and making shots repeatedly.
    36:50
    I think because I was making them repeatedly and did it for the first two balls, it probably did not have the impact that ultimately the beginning of all three did have. It's a five-ball game.
    37:05
    I had encountered a game, interestingly, just outside of Chicago in a suburb called Skokie, Illinois. It was in a bowling alley when I was traveling around with James.
    37:17
    Bowling alley had any number of pinball machines, and lo and behold, all of those pinball machines were fine except for the fact, this is going to sound very, very strange to you and probably to many of your listeners,
    37:29
    because what I'm about to say has now become somewhat accepted and ordinary, but back then it wasn't. The plungers were taken off the game. It was a press button and the ball just kind of went up, which I hated and detested because the games back then were not designed to be that way.
    37:53
    So just as I was ready to pull back the plunger for ball three to continue my dissertation, if you will, I stopped and I said, see these gradient lines down here?
    38:06
    That is because their skill even down to the plunger. This is a five ball game. there is no way other than maybe the ball taking a very nice bounce off of these bumpers to go back up through one of those top five lanes i have to complete all of those five lanes in order to be able to complete my rack of balls if i pull the plunger back just right it's going to go right down the center lane i pull the plunger back it went up it hit the rubber came down in a marvelous arc and went straight down the center lane.
    38:47
    Nothing but net. And my little gruff cherubic person said, that's enough. All right, we've seen enough. And I still wanted to play. I mean, the ball was still in play. My hands had not left the flippers, but everybody kind of left. I walked away from the game. And I think that it was because I was able to actually do something as precisely as that. I'm not suggesting that any of my flipper shots were not as precise, but the fact that they happened in such rapid succession, I think this was like the crowning event, if you will, of my demonstration and why it has stood out to be, you know, it's not even the shot heard around the world. It was the plunger that made it. And people have asked, they said, so you pulled back the plunger? I said, yeah, I mean, I did. And if it hadn't gone in, I would have tried to nudge a little bit. I mean, I would have had some type of repartee to justify whatever had just taken place. In this case, I didn't have to say or do anything. I had already done it. So, you know, later, I forget the exact time. It was probably within a week. the verdict came back and the city council by a unanimous vote of 6-0 allowed pinball back into New York and I've always thought with all due modesty that on my birthday August 1st then Mayor Abe Raham Beam signed it into law and pinball was allowed back into New York and it became something of a domino effect in all honesty I think because it was New York in some ways because New York is New York. Look, Los Angeles had voted back pinball back in 1972, but it was on the West Coast. And, you know, we didn't have the same world back in the mid-70s that we have now in terms of instantaneous news and the Internet and whatever else. But Chicago followed later in 1976 to allow pinball in. I had actually testified in a couple of other court cases around the country and had offered some other input and guidance and some others. So I think New York really became that one verdict, if you will, that kind of made pinball back in the limelight to a greater effect than it would have had if it had been in Tuscaloosa or some other city or town. and the rest of they say is history do you have one of those games?
    41:33
    I do not have an Eldorado and I do not have a Bankshot, no I don't it was never, neither of them were ever on my wish list I hate to say, my wish list was either a Hurdy Gurdy Central Park or Buckaroo Cowpoke those are the games that I played religiously and maddingly Lee when I was at the University of Wisconsin. And in fact, Hurdy Gurdy was the first game that I ever turned.
    42:01
    And Cowpoke was the one game where I watched my fraternity brother play and saw that there was actually skill involved.
    42:10
    I won't take you through the arduous process of how terrible I was when I first started playing pinball and how accomplished I became. but it was dazzlingly really painful to watch how I played. I mean, suffice it to say, my first entry into playing pinball when I was in college,
    42:34
    you put your money in, you pull back the plunger, and you just start flipping madly. Ball's not even down close to the flippers, but I am just flipping both flippers. and it was different epiphanies of, I don't have to start flipping like a crazy person until the ball is close to the flippers. Okay, good. You know what? If the ball is only going to be on the left, I only have to flip crazy on the left or on the right. I mean, it was all of these kind of various self-educating steps to become, again, a little bit more proficient.
    43:11
    So at the time you were working for GQ, you're making this book you've done the testimonials and stuff what made you jump from GQ and doing stuff like that into the pinball industry into helping it actually in the industry well the book came out I had taken a leave of absence from GQ and actually went back and became managing editor when I came back it was an interesting call that I got from the publisher who finally reached me. I've been trying to reach you forever. And it's like, well, I've been traveling. I've been in Europe, been around the United States, working on my pinball book. Did you give any thought of ever coming back to the magazine? And I said, not really. He said, well, I'd like you to come back as the editor. And there's a whole story that we don't have to get into, and I turned that down. But I did come back as the managing editor.
    44:08
    And I always thought, so from associate editor to managing editor, based on what? the fact that I was gone for a few months. In real time, it was only a few months. In publishing time, I actually did not miss any issues, just because of lead times and the fact that at that point, GQ was only eight issues a year.
    44:29
    But here I'm back as managing editor based on, what, the strength of working on a pinball book. So from 74 until 1982 I was at GQ and I was absolutely involved with the pinball industry and everybody kind of knew it I actually wrote other books during that period of time I wrote a couple of self-help books with a clinical psychologist and a number of other books that, again, are of no interest to anybody in the pinball world, I would assume. But I also had a chance to design my first pinball machine. so there was actually an appetite and a desire because i was still writing for all the trade magazines replay play meter vending times cash box um so i was still very deeply involved in the industry and would travel back to chicago on a somewhat frequent basis and go to the trade show the major one back then there was only one which was the amoa in the fall um and uh got the opportunity to design my first game, which was Sharpshooter.
    45:42
    And I hadn't thought about wanting to be part of the industry and was made a job offer by then President of Williams, Michael Stroll, to come in and head up marketing. The timing just wasn't right. I had a chance to work at D. Gottlieb in 1981, 1980. And again, the timing wasn't right in terms of their transitioning with the purchase and ultimate sale from Columbia Pictures and then Coca-Cola and then being on its own. and lo and behold in 1988 wound up getting a phone call from Ken Fedesna at Williams asking if I would be willing to join Williams to head up marketing and I had always wanted to come back to Chicago at that point in time I had left GQ I had worked briefly for a marketing and sales promotion company and then joined on with a small publisher, took over the editorship of Video Games Magazine, started up a magazine called Easy Home Computer and another magazine called Exercise for Men,
    47:04
    did a series of computer user guides. So, yeah, you know, had moved on to Connecticut working for a computer startup that was funded by Kodak and Xerox with some new innovative technology.
    47:22
    And lo and behold, there was this opportunity to come back home. And the rest, as they say, is history. I started at Williams in 1988 and was there for 26 and a half years. So you designed all of your pinball machines, not actually full time in the industry. It sounds like this was a side hobby or a side gig for you. it was absolutely a side thing for me to do sharpshooter uh for me to tell them do not do coney island and just flop the play field but they didn't listen um i had worked on a game for uh d gottlieb with ray tanzer who was still in school at the time it was a summer thing and if the Bondo build up that Ray had put on the play field that probably weighed about a thousand pounds if I had known to call it a ramp or a hill maybe that game would have seen the light of day Barracora started off as Las Vegas that I worked on with Steve Epstein so everything was done as an aside with Cyclops and Global Warfare, Stingray, which I kind of worked on. That was interesting only because I was meeting with Sam at Stern, and we went out to the factory. We were going out for lunch, and Sam stopped. Mike Kubin was working on a Whitewood, and they asked me what I thought of the game, and it was like, well, not bad. I'd do a spinner over here. I would do some kind of a small little area to get back up to the right. I never realized the influence that Wizard had on the design, but I didn't like Wizard because there was no way to get back up to the top on the right side. It was all closed off. And I was like, here, do this with some rollovers and do this so I can get back up to the top. I talked about doing something in the middle that effectively was a way to double up the same values that existed and a kick-out hole on the top and just made all of those kinds of observations. We went out to lunch, came back, and lo and behold, Mike Coopin had done all of those changes and Stingray was born.
    49:51
    So, yes, I mean, there were some other games that I had an influence in, and then again, having the games that I had designed actually see the light of day, along with any number of other layouts and game concepts that never really did see the light of day. I had a three-game contract with Williams, and only Barracora wound up getting built and designed. Thank you, Barry Osler, who was handed off to say, here, you do this project.
    50:22
    So, yeah, it was all part-time sideline. So back in the day, I know that you started the first competitive. It wasn't Papa. It was originally – I can't remember what it was originally called. It was called Papa. Oh, was it Papa? Okay. Absolutely, because I am into somewhat – and I forget what you call these things. It does not come to mind, but Papa is the Professional and Amateur Pinball Association.
    50:48
    Yes. And the reason for that was that I was, I guess, the guest commentator invited out by Bally for their super shooter tournament and got very much involved with that, which actually in some ways led me to get involved with Pumpkin Press and ultimately Video Games Magazine. I had been writing for Electronic Fun and Games or actually Electronic Games. It wasn't electronic funding games, but electronic games with Arnie Katz and Joyce Worley and Bill Kunkel. I was writing commentary for them on arcade games and was out in Chicago, the Playboy Towers, for Ballet Super Shooter.
    51:36
    And actually, there was a celebrity tournament. God, Gilda Radner was there, Walter Payton, Bill Murray. I mean, it was a whole stellar group of people, and there was a celebrity tournament to see who would get the chance to play against me.
    51:52
    And Walter Payton actually won and had a chance to play against me. And probably somewhere I still have the sweater that Bill Murray ripped because I was still on my first ball when Walter was still playing his third game.
    52:07
    And Bill Murray wanted to stop me, and he grabbed the back of my sweater, and it ripped. But it was Hey sorry Because I told all the guys The competitors And there was a top 20 players They had all competed at Aladdin's Castles Around the country To come in and win a Datsun 280Z And a whole other prize package of stuff And I remember quite distinctly That the age range was a 10 year old On up to somebody who was 32 There was one gal And It was quite an undertaking. It was sensational. Nothing like that had ever happened before. There was live news coverage and all the rest of it, which was spectacular. But the person who ultimately won, and I know that I have said their names in vain before, and I mean, again, not to take any umbrage on them, Ken Lunsford won from Plains, Georgia, amazingly the same city that Jimmy Carter the president came from this is 1977 78 I think as I take a sip of tea don't mind me Joe Grillo was a person he was playing in the finals and Joe I thought played a much more stable higher level of games than Ken And Ken made a shot, and the shot proved to be the difference on eight ball where he got five X bonus and wound up winning the tournament. And I remember going back, and at that point in time, I was one of the regulars hanging out with Steve Epstein at the Broadway Arcade, playing games when the arcade was shutting down during the day whenever and I was able to talk Steve into playing along with Lionel Martinez not really a great player Lionel was a film editor and one of the regulars. And it was the three of us, and over a period of about three years, doing everything by hand, I wanted to come up with a scoring system.
    54:33
    I realized that doing scoring on a pinball machine didn't make sense, because admittedly, every game is different.
    54:42
    Totaling out the scores the way that things were done with the ballet tournament, there was a certain inequity.
    54:50
    And I thought if I could come up with something, a PEBGA, you guys are shaking your heads saying, huh? Point efficiency per game average.
    55:03
    See, I'm into these kind of mnemonic alliterative things. Acronyms. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. That's the word I was searching for. So a PEBGA, a point efficiency per game average, that would be somewhat of a handicap, the way that you have it in bowling. because I was thinking of it on that basis because I was also a bowler,
    55:25
    that somehow I could equate things so that if I had a 4.2 PEBGA versus somebody with a 2.4, somehow I could work those numbers in such a fashion that I could equalize and balance out the same way that a person with a 200 average could compete head to head with somebody who only averaged 180. That that disparity would be different. And that's how Papa was started. It was, let me work these numbers. Let me figure things out. And an arduous, arduous task with the three of us playing games,
    56:01
    me going back and transferring all of my handwriting into type pages. And, yes, somewhere, I have seven six-foot-high file cabinets here. Somewhere those pages do exist to see what I wound up doing. It got very intense with the three of us. and then doing matchups with people, and I wound up being, I cannot do a PEPGA. It doesn't work. But I have all of these things. Let me try to allocate points, 10-5-1. Let's see how that works.
    56:32
    7-5-3-1 when we started getting a fourth player involved and I started being able to get some other people to be our focus group, if you will. some college students coming by who had done a little documentary and worked with me. Bring your friends in. I want to just take the scores down. It doesn't really matter, but I just need to collate scores. And I could have just made up scores, but I wanted to do it based on reality, if you will. And to try to come up with something that I thought, all right, if it's a three-game series, how would this work? Again, bowling, it's a three-game series. Do I get an extra point over here? How do I do this? and working things out. And the first test, the first trial was through a very dear friend in Pinebrook, New Jersey, Ron Colucci, who had Game Town. It was a converted church and just wanted to expose his players and said, will they come on a Sunday morning? We'll provide donuts and bagels and things. Will they do it? And at that point in time, I was already living in Connecticut and Westport. I would travel down to this place in New Jersey and Steve would drive up from his house in New Jersey and we would be there. And I would, of course, get all of the scores and post things and come up with a schedule. I mean, it was all this stuff to see if it would work. and then Steve started the first leagues in the Broadway Arcade in New York City. The idea was fundamentally if we could start leagues and the leagues could then go into a local competition and that local competition could go into a regional competition, could go into a state competition, could go into a national competition to try to do something where the leagues were the essence, the underbelly, the foundation that would provide location owners and operators with steady clientele, the same way that bowling owners of bowling alleys, bowling centers had everything secured, typically throughout the fall and winter with people buying time to reserve X number of leagues for their engineering group or their company outings or whatever it might be for 20 weeks, 30 weeks. That was what I thought could be possible. And Papa was started and we took those first leagues for the first Papa championships that were staged in New York City to crown the first Papa Champion, and it kind of grew from there.
    59:22
    And lo and behold, Papa was formed. I think we did three or four before Steve was approached by someone in Las Vegas who promised all this great, wonderful stuff, and we did the Papa Tournament in Las Vegas that wasn't as successful as we thought it would be.
    59:42
    At the same point in time, I got very much involved because I was at Williams, It was Bally with the Amusement Game Association, the AMOA, who wanted to start up, guess what, pinball tournaments and leagues the same way that they had done it with darts and with pool.
    60:04
    And they wanted to create their own association of sorts. And I thought, well, Papa already exists. No, no, no, no. Papa's already out there. We want our own. and it was going to be the IPA, like the NDA, National Dart Association. And I remember we had a meeting at their corporate offices in Chicago, and it was going to be international pinball. And I said, nope, can't be. What?
    60:35
    Because in some parts of the world, the games are known as flipper games. It needs to be the IFPA. hey, the International Flipper Pinball Association.
    60:47
    Okay. And the International Flipper Pinball Association really was geared to help many of the distributors and their clientele with a way to secure locations.
    61:02
    Get a contract. You have a contract for them to do pool at that bar. You need a contract for them to have pinball so that you can secure your business locations as operators and distributors. And the first tournament was held in Chicago at the Hilton at the O'Hare Airport.
    61:24
    I tried, implored the people, because, again, this is part of the Amusement Game Association. I implored them not to have the games be with extra balls. oh no no no no it's fine it's fine it's fine it's fine uh it was torturous uh early on during these sessions with players coming from wisconsin players coming from minnesota and michigan because that's where much of everything was based for the association as well as the manufacturers being there because we had, as Pinball Expo had designed it, we had our own manufacturers division because we weren't allowed to play in the regular open competitions at Pinball Expo. We could only play in ours because everybody thought we had an unfair advantage because we were working for the manufacturers, which obviously has now dissipated if you look at the past years of the combination of whoever is working as a designer or working wherever, playing with all of the regular people. But back then we weren't allowed to play with regular people.
    62:41
    And early on during the sessions, I remember one of the distributors turning to me saying, this is taking forever.
    62:51
    And I said, yeah. He said, well, with darts, the better you are, the quicker it is. I said, yes. Guess what? In pinball, the better you are, the longer it takes.
    63:01
    And the first tournament took forever. I will tell you right now that I went through three doubles partners in the doubles team competition for the manufacturers because people had to go home.
    63:17
    Had to go home to their families. Tom Cahill left and suddenly it was Ed Boon, person behind and responsible for Mortal Kombat. Suddenly it was another partner that I had. And I think it was actually Brian Eddy who played with me. And Brian is now back with Stranger Things and Stern competing against the other manufacturers. We were representing Williams Valley and it was like, OK, fine. And I still remember the singles competition came down to John Norris representing Premier. And it was either Larry DeMar or myself for Williams Valley. and Larry just said, I can't play anymore. I'm exhausted. Will you play against John? And I think one of the games was hoops. The other game was checkpoint. I don't remember what the game might have been for Williams and Bally, but I took on John and somehow we slogged through a best of five and it went down to the last game and John eked out a win. He may remember it differently. He may think that he just totally railed all over me and just destroyed me, but I don't think it was that. I think that at some point in time, probably both of us just said, do you want to win?
    64:33
    I'll let you just win. Can we just end this? We've been here since 8 o'clock in the morning, and it's now midnight. Really? For what? So we got a little bit smarter for the second IFPA tournament that was held up near the airport in Mitchell Field Airport outside of Milwaukee, where there was no extra balls. But there were a couple of other IFPA tournaments before things kind of just petered out for whatever reason. And I'm sure if I really kind of go back through my memory banks, there are probably any number of reasons, the most of them being politically charged in regard to the industry and what have you. I know that we ran some IFPA tournaments at the trade shows at that point in time. There was the spring show, the AOE that was in New Orleans, and then ultimately in the Chicagoland area. There was still the fall show.
    65:34
    So we did that. Papa was still going strong. And then Papa stopped because Steve wound up losing the arcade in New York.
    65:43
    And ultimately, he wound up selling the assets to Kevin Martin. And Papa continued. And Joshua and Zachary approached me, I think it's now 11 or 12 years ago, saying, can you get the rights to the IFPA? And I was like, huh? We want to start something.
    66:08
    Really? And I wound up getting the rights, and the IFPA was started, and admittedly over the past decade plus, much of what I had envisioned and dreamed of and hoped that would happen has far exceeded any of those dreams, hopes, and wishes. It's become a phenomenon, and I am pleased that, number one, I had a small part in it, number two, that I'm still alive to witness it, and number three, to actually participate a little bit. So that is somewhat of the history of PAPA and of the IFPA. I don't remember if that was the exact question that was asked, and probably I've spoken far too long, but hopefully that gives you a little bit of insight. you're totally fine Roger it just astounds me it's just awesome to hear this stuff I have no complaints whatsoever it is fantastic the only follow up question I had I know that Steve Kirk has become quite his games have become quite desired here recently I didn know if you did anything with steve kirk because i know that people have talked that he was kind of one of the forefathers also of competitive pinball and saying that um doing some of those bigger tournaments back then i i didn't know if you worked with him on those stuff and whatnot all right my first exposure to steve kirk and there's stories about steve and we don't have to get into the dark side of steve because he was an interesting fellow, to say the least.
    67:40
    My first exposure to him was at the AMOA show. It had to be, probably it had to be like 75, because at that point in time, in the fall, I would have already had a book contract.
    67:55
    I guess Steve was working on a book, and I'm there with James Hamilton, playing a game and he comes by with, I think it had to be Bobby Natkin, who I think he worked with on his book. And he said, hi, I'm Steve Kirk. We're going to play pinball and whoever wins, their book comes out first.
    68:18
    Huh? Who are you? What? What are you talking about? I don't know who the hell you are. And it doesn't work that way. I'm more than willing to play pinball with you, but seriously? And I wound up getting some background on Steve. Steve had started at a younger age at Gottlieb, as a matter of fact, working with Wayne Nines and Ed Krinsky, doing some, I think, some mechanical and build-up work, and maybe there's better information about that. But I do know at the time he was bothering literally everybody. He had opened up an arcade on the near north side in Chicago where he would make changes to the games that he wound up getting.
    69:12
    He put in and he was notorious for putting in a center post and he'd make other adjustments to the games because he didn't think that anybody's games were as good as he could make them. and he was somewhat ostracized by everybody, burned a lot of bridges. Nobody would want to work with him, and he made the rounds. I mean, literally he was like everywhere.
    69:33
    A very, very capable person. I will say that I wound up loaning him money and never got it. I wasn't the only one. He was just a very strange case. anything that Steve said and again I don't want to do anything to impugn whatever his legacy might be or however anybody thinks of him eccentric comes to mind I felt bad for him I mean that's the best way to describe it I knew that there were some issues that he had personally and otherwise and the skill level So Meteor, Nineball, Stars. Yeah, I mean, some remarkable work. I think his great weakness was he couldn't do tops to save his life. But the intricacies of what he did do, I give him all the credit in the world for that. And I think that the games from that era really kind of stand up much more so now that both the IFPA and absolutely Kevin's collection allowed people to experience games from another era and not just new games. Let's face it, for Pinball Expo over the years, because every cycle we were there with either the brand new Valley game or the brand new Williams game. That was the game that you played for the tournament. There wasn't the lineup of games outside in the hallway or any of the other shows that were taking place at that point in time, because there weren't any early on, where you were playing any of the older games. And I think that, you know, my son, I think specifically Josh, always thought, wouldn't it be great if you could play games from different eras? If he did a line, my lineup for Papa always was, you know, eight games or nine games. And you had to play them from right to left or from left to right. And they were set up in a certain way. And that was your run. And, you know, those things kind of changed, but everything was always based on new games. And I think the ability and the desire to have people be tested on games from the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the 2000s, I think has given people, number one, exposure to these lost treasures. See which comes to mind, a marvelous game that Joe Juice wanted designing, and then Joe Kamenka brought it back with the Beatles. Steve Kirk's games some of my games even that people have discovered so I think the eccentricity of Steve probably stands out more in terms of how I remember him and the fact that I think that his games were uniquely different enough compared to the Greg Kimmicks, Jim Patla Dennis Nordman Steve Ritchie, Mark, and all the other designers of that bygone era with many of them still around. So in some ways, he was a tragic hero of pinball. So I want to take you into the 90s, the time at Williams, you saw Ballet in Williams. You saw this giant upsurge of popularity, and sadly, we all know how the era ended in the 90s. So take us through your emotional highs and lows of that time and what you remember most about it.
    73:27
    I'll back up one moment to try to keep things in what I think of as being a perspective. There was a golden era around the time of my pinball book.
    73:41
    Not so coincidentally, also the movie Tommy, the changeover from electromechanics to solid state. But all the publicity that I wound up doing that brought pinball to life with my book, and there were a couple of other books that wound up coming out as well, but none of them, in all honesty, had the same level of success that my pinball book did. and being on the Today Show, being on Good Morning America, being on other programs. The book being touted by Gene Shalit on the Today Show as being one of the books to buy for Christmas time, this oversized cocktail table book. So all of that was great and wonderful.
    74:30
    And then a couple of years go by. pinball fades into the background because there's something called video games that take over and pinball's gone not to be really heard of and forgotten that's old video games are new and video games are evolving I mean thanks to the likes of somebody like Eugene Jarvis who proved that there could be a world beyond the screen that you saw with a game like Defender that you could have controls with dual joysticks on Robotron I mean the discussions of raster versus vector graphics kind of went out the window as Atari took hold and Williams took hold and the Japanese influence of companies like Nintendo, Nikobuchi, Taito and others coming on board home systems emerging.
    75:21
    Timball was kind of like an afterthought. and I'd like to think that in some way maybe there was some influencing that I had because suddenly that silence was broken through in 1988 when I started.
    75:37
    I really believed that there needed to be more outreach and maybe because of all of my work in publishing in both books and magazines and newspapers, I felt very strongly about wanting to do something that would propel pinball back into the limelight. and I started a PR campaign to try to publicize pinball. And not just Williams Valley, but just pinball in general, but, of course, yes, a focus on Williams and Valley.
    76:07
    And started in March of 1988, started sending out press releases. It wasn't until, and I know the first one, it wasn't until I think February of 1989 that the Milwaukee Journal printed something about pinball. Nice big colors, pictures, and story about pinball being back and buying everything that I was selling, if you will.
    76:37
    New York Times, suddenly there was something in Time Magazine. There was something in Newsweek. There was something happening on air, not only in local news, but also national media. Thank God, at the same time, we started, because I really believed in wanting to do brand licensing, we started with Elvira as the first license theme that I worked on.
    77:02
    And suddenly pinball kind of became something cool again. It had a personality. There was, you know, I used to use the old term that it's not your father's ozumbil, it's not your father's pinball machine. There's something uniquely different about it. It embraces all the new technologies. It is influencing video games. Video games are influencing pinball. Isn't this wonderful and marvelous? And just to have the incredibly talented and gifted group of designers across the board at Premiere, at Stern, Data East, Sega, whatever its incarnation was at the time, Williams and Bally, there were spectacular games coming out. So all that I was doing was basically elevating the whole exposure and awareness of pinball along with, guess what, a pop-up tournament and having Lyman Sheets playing in the middle of Times Square, freezing his ass off, excuse the term, on the morning news show because he had just been crowned the pinball champion of the world. You know, having the backdrop on MTV, having some games in their studio set up, you know, making pinball everywhere so that everywhere you turn, it had to have a pinball machine in some way, shape or form. So I think that, you know, being a part of that and not look by no stretch of the imagination. Am I wanting to suggest that I take all the credit for it? But I'd like to think that there has been some influencing, because if I look historically at where pinball's peak has been in regard to the world view of it. I've kind of been around it a little bit, but again, with an incredible supporting cast, I could not have done it. without all of the help, skill of all of the folks that I was basically promoting, all of the people that I wanted to put in the spotlight, while truthfully I was more than willing to stay in the background. You know, I don't know if everybody ever knows or appreciates the fact that every licensed game from 1988 until past 2000 for both pinball machines, video games, as well as even novelty redemption products that Williams Ballet did. All those games were games that I worked on. All those licenses were licenses that I wound up securing.
    79:39
    And I think that, you know, again, I take my hat off to all of the designers and programmers and graphic artists and everybody else who brought all of those particular games to life.
    79:52
    So I don't know if that's an answer to the question, but the change that I saw was a remarkable upswing from Cyclone, which won best pinball of the year, three years running, to games like Adam's Family and Twilight Zone and high-speed follow-ups from Steve and all that he did and Mark Ritchie with Indiana Jones and got, you know, the list goes on and on. But the first one, the one that knocked it out of the park was Elvira.
    80:26
    What was it like working for Bally Williams? I know that they're highly regarded for their games now. But a lot of the documentaries I've seen are like special when lit. It's kind of the end of the tale. And I don't think we hear much of, of the middle of it. And so can you walk us through the day and what it was like being there? It was magical. I mean, for me especially.
    80:53
    I had obviously an affinity for the industry. It was something of a dream job, a great career path. It wasn't something that I ever thought would have happened. And the best of both worlds was it allowed me to come back home to Chicago and have my boys be raised in the Midwest. which was important to me, but it was, God, it was this creative, energetic think tank of these amazing individuals who were kind of set free to work on their projects and see all of their dreams come to fruition. That was the part that was remarkable. It wasn't as if there were any barriers. Yes, definitely there were bill of materials and yes, there were features and functionality of games and other things that needed to be taken out because it exceeded whatever the cost of goods was and you couldn't do it that way. But if you look at the talent from Python Angelo and Greg Ferris on through to all the other artists and the programmers, you know, the Dwight Sullivan's of the world coming into their own and others that I'm forgetting. And my apologies in advance to the designers. I mean, this was the gold standard. You know, people used to ask, who's your biggest competitor?
    82:25
    You know, is it again, is it Stern or Data East or Sega, whichever they were at the time? Is it Premier? And it was like, no, it's our own older games. We have to raise the bar. Everybody wanted to raise the bar. Everybody had this level of inventiveness, this dynamic quality of being able to express themselves.
    82:52
    And it was exciting. I mean, going into work every day. All right. I will say something because I think maybe it defines it to the best. I would come into work And I would leave I don't know Pat Lawler would call me up to his office To play a Whitewood, see what I think Or Steve or Dennis Or Mark or anybody else Would say here Roger, see what you think Steve Kordak would be there And maybe I'd come home At around 7.30 8 And the boys would be getting ready to go to bed And I'd have my dinner And there was one time where I came home And I was like, so I'm like a good dad, aren't I? I mean, guys, and whether it was Josh or Zach, I was like, yeah, I mean, you come home. We've had dinner and you say goodnight to us. And, you know, that's good. We have you on the weekends. And it was like a dagger going into my heart.
    83:52
    And I just remember fundamentally saying, guys, I am leaving here at six. If you want to see me, have me come up late in the afternoon, but I need to get home. I want to have dinner with my sons.
    84:05
    A pinball had taken over my world. When I would come out and visit, and this is prior to starting at Williams full-time,
    84:14
    and I'd make my visit and I'd be at the Bally factory or the Williams factory or Gottlieb, and I'd be hanging out with the designers and all the creative people. It's like, all right, so where are we going to go? Huh? we going to go to Mothers are we going to Galaxy where are we going to play pinball Roger we've been playing pinball I understand we've been playing all day where are we going to go and I used to drag people out to play I still remember the old Bally plant Bill O'Donnell was the president of the company and I'd be out visiting and they had a game room right by the front door and everybody would be gone and Bill would be leaving And this is before I was married or anything else. I'd be out in Chicago visiting and Bill would come by and I'd be like the last one in the factory. And I'm playing pinball. I'm playing games that have yet to see the light of day. And Bill would turn and say, oh, it's only you, Roger. All right. You know how to leave. Just make sure you turn off the lights and just close the door. OK, fine. Thank you.
    85:19
    I mean, it was mesmerizing. and I used to feel that way when I'd come in and visit and be like, all right, where are we going now? What are we doing? Come on, let's go, let's go, let's go, and I'd drag people out to go play games. Let's watch people play. Let's see what's happening out there, and I think that that was that level of energy, that enthusiasm, that intensity that carried over with everybody. Look, I started the first Papa League in Chicago at a place called Diversions, which is one of our test locations. I had Brian Eddy, Ed Boone, Larry DeMar and others and Jason Werdrick and a friend of his who were very young back then, who were regulars playing video games or whatever. I dragged them in and, you know, Jason, I think as everybody kind of knows, is a fairly accomplished player. But he started in my little embryonic first, you know, attempt at doing a league here and doing other events like that and starting with pin golf and some of the other things at places like Galaxy Games and Gala North and just for fun to try to get things kind of going, getting some momentum. And I think that everybody fed off of each other. Yes, there was a competitiveness, but I think that the competitiveness was somewhat of a friendly rivalry. and I think that just going in, you felt elevated, at least I did, and I think that those middle years were some of the best years ever, and I think if you take a look at the games that came out back then, there were not many missteps. I think that every game truly was magical and unique, and it allowed people to really express themselves, You know, whether it was like a George Gomez working on something or a John Papaduke or a John Trudeau. I mean, the list goes on and on of the people who were assembled under that roof. And at the same time, understand something. At the same time, brilliance was happening in video games.
    87:26
    We did have, you know, Eugene Jarvis and Mark Trammell and George Petro and Jack Hager. I mean, we had NFL Blitz, NBA Jam. I mean, my God, Total Carnage, Mortal Kombat, I mean, Cruisin'. The list goes on and on where fundamentally we at Williams Valley Midway were turning an entire industry on its head. And to be part of that and even in some small way, it was just magical. And, you know, I have seen some of the documentaries and some of the other things that have taken place. And you wind up stepping back because at the time, at least for me, I don't think that you imagine what you are a part of. You just kind of take it for granted. And looking back now, I think of it and realize just how fortunate I was, how blessed I was to be around all of it. And unfortunately, to also be around all of the stages and steps that brought it all to its end. Tragically, unfortunately, and I will say unnecessarily. All right, we're going to pause the interview right here. This is part one of the two-part interview we did with Roger Sharp. We thank you for tuning in today. Once again, if you want to get a hold of us, we are LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. Or connect with us through Facebook at LoserKidPinballPodcast. podcast. Also, we're on Instagram. If you're enjoying the interview, please let us know. Part 2 will be next week. Hope to see you then. Thank you.