thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop we are on episode 110 with me my other host my the chewbacca to your han solo uh scott larson well i've been listening to a lot of slam till lately and i know it's awesome ron's the host and bruce is the co host yes you know yes trust me i'm surprised you haven't picked up on that before yeah but in the last couple of episodes it's very distinct that ron is the host and bruce is the other host not the co-host the other oh see i i'm okay with being a sidekick it's okay it's all good you do the editing and so i'm good with that if i got to do the editing i'm good okay so i got a call okay yesterday uh fedex called me iron maiden pro is going to be at my house on friday i'm so excited i called zach many uh he helped me get go through the whole process man it's it is painless every time i use flipping out pinball if you're not using flipping out pinball you're just causing yourself more headache really that's what it comes down to the shipping smooth the games show up pristine i don't know how zach does it but he does it it's great and at the end of june my foo fighters is showing up so yeah i'm stoked and maybe i won't have to worry about deadpool because i heard that production wise it got pushed back yeah so uh i don't know but if you're looking for that next pinball machine if you're looking for a godzilla topper if you're looking for some of those sweet accessories give zach and nicole many at flipping out a call or like we do hit them up through facebook and send them messages be kind though don't message them at like two in the morning. It does happen. And I think, I will say I have been guilty about sending a messages at random times because my call schedule is so weird, but, but I totally get it. Yeah. Um, I, I also have another flipping out pinball story. So my friend who has that premium Bally Williams collection, he sold his house and so he moved and I've got a, um, I've got a terrible right wrist right now that has been healing. I heard it playing tennis and it's been a while. So I went over to his house and he had these guys that were like, you know, 22 and looked like they escaped the Jersey Shore extra group. And so they were carrying up all these games from his basement, you know, around the back and it was huge. Shipped them over to his new house, but his new house, he's moving to a very small house that has a, It has a staircase that has a left-hand turn. And we were thinking, well, okay, so I brought my Escalera and five pinball machines down the stairs with a 90-degree turn in there in 45 minutes. Nice. And so, man, if you have not used one of these things, it is totally worth it. It's only a Mandalorian topper. Thank me later. uh definitely ask zach and nicole if you are if you are looking for easy ways of moving machines definitely and i agree with you that's the only way to go i have a couple appliance dollies i have an actual pinball dolly because i don't have stairs between my pinball machines in the outside so i don't have to worry about stairs but when i do i have an appliance dolly i get called when when my cousin needs us to move yeah sure but having something that walks up and down those stairs was so good yep definitely well we've had uh it's been kind of an interesting couple of weeks uh yeah it seems like every it was like a tsunami everything came in at once and then right now we're dealing with i would say lesser uh news releases i mean we're gonna talk about accessories toppers and all that kind of stuff today um but yeah it is um it's been different It's been a different. Oh, also, one thing I do want to point out. So I actually went to our podcast evaluation and not evaluation the ratings on iTunes. Right. And we need some more ratings because the last one is like three years old. And one of them talked about one of us breathing like Darth Vader throughout the podcast, which I thought was kind of hilarious. But it's – yeah, seriously, we would love it if you guys just go to whatever podcast thing and drop us a rating. Obviously, appreciate five-star, but we appreciate feedback in any ways of having to make the show better. So let's get some new ratings on there. And the reason why I say this is because podcasts come and go. But a lot of times when you're looking for that new podcast, total nerd rabbit hole here. I have started rewatching Babylon 5, which I haven't seen for like 30 years. And I would say I'm a marginal sci-fi fan, but I remember enjoying it back in college. And I found a podcast that has Babylon 5 for the first time. And they're going through it for the first time. And so it's really interesting. and they even pointed out that, hey, when you're looking for a podcast, a lot of times it doesn't really help out with the search algorithms, but if a podcast that you look up and you're like, I want to check those guys out, guys or girls, if it has more ratings or more reviews, then you're more likely to check that out. Definitely. So anyway, I just appreciate it if you could go and like and subscribe and all that fun stuff. Yeah, also hit up This Week in Pinball. They still have their creators database and send us one there too as well. Speaking of this week in pinball, there's also for silver ball swag. If you want to check out some of our shirts, the shoes are just the shoes. Shoes are on fire. Shoes on fire. I can't wait for expo this year. We'll be able to tell. It was like the hats. You can go through expo. Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep. And then now it's going to be the shoes, which is awesome. And so if I've learned one thing about pinball swag is people don't really want shirts. They want something unique. Well, they also don't want crap. The bottom line is if you put out cheap stuff – and I totally get it. Everybody has their own way of doing things. But my personal take is that I don't want to wear something that feels like a promo thing, that costs five bucks to make. Like the shirt's not comfortable, the hat's not comfortable, or whatever. So we've certainly gone out of our way to make sure that we're putting something that you would be happy wearing every day. And really, to be fair, we're making very little on any of this stuff. I give out more stuff than we do anything. So if anything, we're net negative. And so we just want people to have fun. Have a fun day. Definitely. Definitely. That is silverballswag.com slash loser kid. It's as simple as that. And yeah. Also, I want to give another shout out to Slam Tilt Podcast. I was listening to them today. They are wrapping up their – by the time we air this, it will be done. But they were doing their For Lime and Sheets donations to the suicide prevention. And they gave us a shout out. They gave the Lions a shout out because we had them on the last episode talking about Harry Potter. So I just wanted to say thanks to Ron and Bruce for giving us a shout out. it's awesome what you guys are doing yeah and uh and we have we have certainly been an advocate for people with um the one thing that we share in life it seems to me is that the older i get the more everybody feels isolated yeah and so i i i'm going a little bit out in the weeds and uh so so at church we were talking about the the 90 and 9 and the the sheep that's that's lost and you know the shepherd goes and finds the sheep and i said how many of us identify with the 99 nobody we all we all identify with with the lost one and so if you're feeling that one recognize you're not alone two it's there is absolutely no shame in saying i need some mental health issues because again your brain is just like any other part of the body and it can have some issues that have things that need to be addressed. And counseling can help talking to friends, reaching out. And if there's anything else, if you're thinking of harming yourself, please don't and reach out. Yeah. Yep. Well, check up on your friends. I don't know if we talked about this last week. It was rough, man. My mother-in-law went in for urgent surgery. a good friend of mine his wife passed away um and another friend had his his mom had to go in for surgery as well and so it was just kind of a weird week last week um you just gotta check up on people you know life life can change in a blink yeah we we went down to st george to help out with some family health issues so yeah absolutely definitely let's let's get on to uh we want to kind of review some Harry Potter thoughts or some extra thoughts. It's really been on the minds of everyone. I guess our episode kind of cracks some of the mystery we've, we've been talked about throughout a couple of different podcasts about what the line said, because Christian line used to do a show. It was Christian, Christian and Sarah did called the super awesome pinball show with Christopher Franchi. If you don't know Franchi, Franchi did Batman 66. He did monsters. He now did Godfather with JJP. he's on other future titles throughout the pinball industry because he's also did galactic tank force and so there were some there were some nuggets that that were dropped in there um like we never said a number but this is definitely the most expensive license yeah in pinball history uh flat out bar none um we don't know a number but we do know that like it's probably going to be touted once all this information comes out from Jersey Jack. Beatles was the old benchmark, okay? Yeah, which was a million for the license, right? This eclipses that. Yes. It has to. And the bottom line is the Beatles are legendary, yes. Harry Potter is legendary now. And so it still connects with today's audience. I know the Beatles do, but you're going for a different demographic. You are going to pay a premium for this. yes um also the i know christian kind of talked about it but um it kind of sounds like this license was kind of pulled out from under the rug on stern okay so i i thought i thought more about that though um and so the the one thing that i keep trying to think about is we know what the public face is right we know what the press release is we know what happens on the surface okay yeah so the the only thing that we know for sure is joe cam and cow got on mother's day and posted jjp has the license yeah so and the speculation okay so everything else beyond that is why. So I've been thinking a lot more about this. What did Stern know or think about the license that we don't know? And so that leads me to think this seems to be an automatic thing. It's like, hey, do you want to sell tickets to Taylor Swift concerts? The answer is yes, because you're going to sell a billion of them, right? Yeah. However, what if there were some caveats to that agreement that made it really not in your best interest to do that? And so the question I have is, okay, there's obviously something, and it's not the money. I know that they would make up that money, okay? So let's even just say if Stern wanted to sell the game and charge an extra $500 for premium licensing credibility or whatever you want to say, right? Yeah. They could do that, and they could sell easily 10,000 Harry Potter games. This really has – this theme has the chance of eclipsing Adam's family. It does. because you can, like, with the home market the way it is, a lot of people that I know are really interested in this game. And I've asked even casual people, okay, would you be interested in a Harry Potter pin? And every one of them said yes. So that tells me there's such a huge market for it. So there had to have been something that was an absolute no-go for Stern to decide that this was a license worth passing up. so there are a couple things we can talk about okay um so wonka yeah is licensed by the same people as harry potter uh it's warner brothers and we saw how restrictive wonka was right i mean you it's gene wilder in the same pose like six different times and we talked about this this is this is like the the lunchbox pose of gene wilder and that was you're right that was because that's what his family only allowed him to do or the licensing right yeah there's not much as of scenes in the game it's mostly like the chocolate factory working in the background with with the stats up right so there are a couple a couple of scenes but not a bunch and uh artwork wise like i said they were very restrictive on what they could do so let's apply that to harry potter a more mega license that's more relevant if stern walked into this and saw how bond went with a very restrictive licensor we like we know that the the licensor was a pain in the butt on this one on bond on bond yes on i wonder if it left a sour taste in their mouth the other thing too is um people keep dancing around this it's something that that did tie into it but yeah also the the bar scene my understanding there's a restriction to what a game can be on location i don't know exactly what that restriction is but it had something to do with like stern didn't feel comfortable doing that to their machine right to make up for whatever uh restriction they were coming out for and so i wonder i mean joe talked about this on our show two years ago when we had him on yeah he was going for harry potter then he'd been going for harry potter a year before i mean this has been years and years in the making right and so if there were some internal struggle going on at stern and finally jjp's like we'll just meet all your requirements and we'll sign on it right now that could have been it might not been most like the rug out from underneath them but it still was like an internal struggle and honestly if you're having a heck of a time getting this license to agree to stuff and it's taking years and years and years to do so uh this is probably the best opportunity now to get it than any other time. I think it's a good thing JJP got it because if Stern couldn't agree on what the game should be, this is probably the only time we would see a Harry Potter game, if that makes sense. She's been softened up. She's ready to go. JJP is the best alternative to Stern for market penetration. That's the bottom line. Stern, we know, is the Goliath in the room. and and jjp is okay you probably have chicago game company in there too but they they only have one original license that's coming out right yeah um and so jjp is the next likely selection just based on they they do know how to make a quality game and it looks great and And so I'm not – I don't think that Stern is going to lose sleep on this. I don't think so either. I bet they wish they could have had it under a situation that works for them. But there's no reason for them to compromise their business model significantly to appease one severe restriction that completely affects their business. So that's why I – okay, full disclosure, I appreciate JJP Games. I do love what they do I tend to have a little more fun with Stern and I have way more Stern games than I do anything else it has a lot of them have more of that one more play feel and there is something that makes me want to come back to them if it were a Stern game yeah I'd probably get it unless the cost was super prohibitive for jjp i want to see what it is because some jjps i really like and they're fun but other jjps just haven't hit that center for me so that that's where i'm a little i'm a little cautious but that also gives me the freedom to say i want it or i don't i'm not buying it sight unseen definitely and it makes me wonder too we're going to get into this later about the used market we're at least two years out from seeing this game oh yeah so so i don't know if you remember this before covid but the used market on a jjp was pretty comparable to like a new stern pro i mean i could get a hobbit for 6500 with no problem yeah um it just my thing is is two years from now everyone's talking about there's definitely gonna be a price increase and especially if this is the most expensive license in pinball history there's going to be some compensation for that. And so that the thing though like how many people are going to buy brand new out of the box or just wait three months till you can buy it used off the secondary market Yeah, it's it's hard. It's hard to predict the people are spending money outside the home again. Yeah. Travel is way up. And so home renovations went crazy. Home entertainment options went crazy during covid. And we know that there people are going back to concerts. People are people are taking trips with their family. They're spending their money on other experiences right now. And that really has hurt the home environment. And that may have some long lasting things that COVID may have been a huge bump for pinball, but it could have also been a temporary blip. It's true as well. so i guess overall with with harry potter we're excited to see what comes my nervousness is it's quite a high bar regardless yeah and so i just i fear for jjp i hope that it doesn't become one of those situations that no matter what they reveal it's going to be a failure kind of thing just because there's going to be such high expectations yeah and to be fair like i am of the star wars generation and when stern was coming out with star wars i was super excited and i didn't buy it yeah so that that totally can happen with any license so if there was if there was a license that for me would it would have been automatic as is uh star wars and i did pass on it and that was a stern game so you know that there's no guarantee and then speaking of jjp and future releases we want to speculate on some upcoming titles uh it sounds like i mean listening to every other podcast and everything coming out. It sounds like Elton John's next from Richie. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I mean, come on. Yeah. Where there's smoke, there's fire. And so I'm really intrigued. I might not be a huge Elton John fan, but I am intrigued about this release because it sort of answers some questions that we've all had. Um, can Richie design when he doesn't have as restrictive as a build of material? Uh, now that Pat Lawler's gone and we know that Richie wouldn't be taking slack from Lawler on his designs. Are we going to see more mechs? Are we going to see a little bit different design to the playfields? Because it feels like the mechs have really been stripped out over the last four titles. They have been some good stuff. Well, okay, I'm going to push back because Black Knight, that Black Knight mech was really cool. Sorry, I'm talking specifically about Jersey Jackets. Okay, okay, yes, yes. Because, I mean, look at Godfather. You do have the sculpts over there. Sure, sure. But it's more of like a pop bumper underneath. It's like an upside-down pop bumper is the best way to explain it. It's a cheaper mechanism. That's the bottom line. It's not a full-featured. And I would say Black Knight should have been better. I think we can agree on that, that Black Knight should have had more. The upper play field was a total disappointment. It was a flat plexiglass with a – like the cannon launcher thing that really – they should have ripped that thing out and put targets up there or put something way more interesting up there. and so the question is can can richie focus himself to use the build of materials in a way that makes sense because that's the achilles heel from my perspective in in the last few builds that he had well and i guess to my point is so like toy story only had to jump around i mean wonka didn't really have much besides the spinning gobstopper and um i mean that's cosmetic that's cosmetic yeah guns and roses had the upper play field and some diverters and stuff like that and it had flippers and whatnot i mean really the last game you can think of was pirates of the caribbean with the triple spinning disc which that was then taken out he had the chest that open that was taken out you had the rocking ship you have there was a lot on there and it feels like they've gravitated away from that so i'm interested to see what happens with the richie design to see And don't get me wrong, mechs don't equal amazing gameplay. Mechs don't equal fun, but it does give you something extra to push you over the edge. But I think when JJP's case, they're a very immersive experience. Whereas Stern games are more of a gameplay experience, and L1's bringing more of that immersive experience, like in Godzilla and Avengers and stuff like that. but for the most part it's it's more gameplay versus moments this is how i'm going to put it and jjp is definitely more moments than it is uh deep well i don't want to say deep gameplay the gameplay is definitely it's just varied it feels jjp feels a little bit more like i'm playing a board game with friends and and that's not bad i like board games it's it is a different feel So Stern tends to have a little more of a go-kart feel where it's a little faster, a little punchier. And that's what I like from Stern. With J.J.P., all the games, they are fun, but it is different. It's like I'm doing a role-playing thing. The Hobbit is so immersive with that screen and the movie clips and all that. So great. It still doesn't have the gameplay punch that I wanted. But every time you start the Dragon multiball, the Smog multiball, it's such a cool moment. I mean, that's the thing. is I feel like mechs lend themselves really well to JJP games, and I feel like they should start heading in that direction. Don't get me wrong. Don't cut back. I feel like Godfather shoots very well, and there's a lot of good shots to it. And I haven't played it yet, so I don't know. There could be a complaint that there's almost too many shots because there's like 29 ball paths. But I think we need to go back to those moments. I think that's what made JJP different and special. And I felt like we lost some of that with Toy Story. and we got it back with Guns N' Roses but it just yeah that's what I'm saying I want to see, we're going to see what happens and it's probably, let's see when did Godfather release? In March so that's the third month if you add nine months because they're saying about every nine months we might see Elton John by the end of the year in December a December release and then speaking of another release Stern's next one which smoke with there's fire right yeah it makes sense right we talked about this before at Comic Con last year it was super weird that they obviously pushed Venom because they had Ozzy there and Todd McFarlane who is known for Spider-Man art and it doesn't take a genius to say why would these two be together and it's obvious with a giant Stern logo right behind them on the booth. It wasn't much of a stretch. It's obvious that it's going to be something that's Spider-Man related, and rumor has it that Venom is the deal. Having a comic book version of Venom actually I think is better. It gives them more opportunity. It's kind of like the ultimate version of Spider-Man, the vault edition. it gives them a little more options and flexibility and having an aussie soundtrack is great for that so i don't know here's the question though just on the theme and the art and the music how interested are you in venom okay so when you say art has it hasn't been talked about yet i'm pretty for sure zombie yetis on this one okay if it's zombie yeti then sure but why would why would todd mcfarland even be there then i think it's a team up okay i think it's a zombie yeti todd mcfarland team up i don't think todd did all of it okay but todd has a very distinctive style and i read i read comic books in the late 80s early 90s Haven't really read him since, but Todd had, it's like the JJP G and R experience, right? There's something different about that game that pulls you in. There was something different about Todd McFarland art that pulled you in. And can you mesh two competing or two different styles? Because Zombie Yeti and Todd McFarland, they are completely different artists. Imagine Zambietti and Christopher Franchi working together. Well, here's the thing, though. Every pinball machine doesn't have just one singular artist. They usually do tap-in and have some people doing filler work. Todd McFarlane's not doing filler work. I'm not saying Todd McFarlane's doing filler work. Todd McFarlane bought Barry Bonds' 73rd home run ball for $10 million. But obviously, Zambietti knows how to do a play-filled layout short style. and so that's why i'm saying todd mcfarland's done comic books yeah i highly doubt he knows how to come in and fill out a play field that's where you bring in that's where you get the tag team right you get the you get the art from todd we also get the expertise of zombie sure i really think it's a collaborative effort there this isn't confirmed but like there's just there's been some hints yeah i guess that's all i can say about that yeah um by the way we haven't seen venom we have no idea no i haven't seen that this is this is us just saying it's been around for so long that i would be utterly shocked if it were not venom coming up well and like i said that booth said todd mcfarland ozzy osbourne and stern pimple all you had to do was put little plus signs between those logos you know i'm saying like okay by the way just for just for context guess how much Todd McFarlane's worth. I just Googled it. Just guess. $4 million. $300 million. Really? $300 million. Yeah, wowzers. Yeah, that is major league there. That is. That's only about $300 million more than I have. The one that I'm thinking – sorry. I don't know why. It just reminded me. Rob Liefeld. Have you heard of this guy? Well, Rob Liefeld was the – he was the creator of Deadpool. He was of the same era. The four big artists of that era, and I know I'm going down a rabbit hole, was Todd McFarlane, Wills Portacio, Rob Liefeld, and Jim Lee. But what's funny to me is like Rob Liefeld – because he was so big. He even had like his designer Levi jeans. And it was a commercial of it. but if you ever want a really good chuckle, go check out the 40 worst Rob Liefeld. He has no idea about anatomy. Like he had muscles in weird places, but he had a visual style that really worked. So he was very specific about like Deadpool and, and creating that character. But it had to be a rip off of death stroke. Slade Wilson, Wade Wilson. Sure. The suits. I don't know. Anyhow. But Wills Portacio, I love the style of Wills Portacio. He was amazing. However, Jim Lee was the best anatomic one. Like he had a great – if you want to know how to draw super accurate comic book guys, go look at Jim Lee's stuff. Oh, definitely. Okay. Back to – Meanwhile, back to pinball. Sorry. It's 30 minutes in and we spent 10 minutes talking about pinball. But it was related. It was related to pinball. It was definitely 100%. So Brian Eddy, he's next. So Brian Eddy on Venom. I'm pretty for sure Dwight Sullivan is going to be tacked in on this one because he's up next as well based off of everything. How do you feel – how do we feel about Eddy? I'm going to go first. Okay. I appreciate Stranger Things. I think the problem is it got a lot of slack because it is very much Avenge. uh avenge uh attack for mars yeah avenge mars attack for mars-esque uh layout wise come on it's 2.0 it really is it really is even though it's it's a re-skinned attack for mars that's not bad i own attack for mars which is why i don't own stranger things and then i do enjoy mandalorian i think the problem is though i feel like you only play really half of the play field because half of it or a quarter the top right quarter is taken by the the mini play field which is fine that's part of the game and then baby yoda takes the top left half i know it's like pop bumpers and like all over it's nothing yeah it's really not much uh and so i'm hoping that this next iteration from eddie shows us a little bit further of what he can do because I feel like Shadow was great. I mean, obviously Medieval Madness and Attack are top, top tier games. I just, I worry. I don't know. It just makes me chuckle. Because like, what was it? Four years ago, they announced Eddie was, maybe it was even longer than that. Maybe it was five years ago. They announced Eddie was working at Stern. And I remember like, mic drop, Stern's won the game. Like Stern's in the lead or whatever. And it's funny because it doesn't really feel that way. And don't get me wrong. I enjoy Eddie. I appreciate what he's done for pinball and whatnot, but I don't think anyone planned on what Elwin was going to do to the industry. Right. Eddie and Elwin came in similar times, really. Yes. And Elwin has about the same amount of games as Eddie does now. Yeah. The challenge is Elwin is the modern take on pinball. it is driven every other design into different directions eddie is the it's kind of the retro design uh the stranger things i think it's a solid game mandalorian i'm not a huge fan of gimmick playfields and that's actually why i sold my mandalorian um because the upper right with the play field that goes up and down. Okay, it's fine, but it feels like... Do you know what it felt like? It felt like Shrek. Where you get the upper right mini pinball. And it's kind of a different... Is it donkey pinball? It's like a different... Same with Family Guy. But it felt like... Okay, this isn't really part of the game. This is like a side quest, but it takes up so much real estate. um i'm hoping he can and if you if you look at the other things medieval madness is not that way there's not really a gimmick side area there's there's great shots in that um attack from mars has great shots so i i'm curious to see what his next design is but i'm also i'm totally undecided This is one of those where I'm going to have to see it to order it or play it or to buy it. I have to play it. I have to see it. So it's – yeah, I think the jury is still out. I guess I'll put it that way. Definitely. Speaking of Elwynn, let's talk Godzilla topper. Okay. Let's talk about toppers. Okay. Do you want to let it breathe for a second and we can hurry and talk about the one other Elwynn thing I want to talk about really quick? Go ahead. Okay, I just want to talk about, there's something that Elwin's done in his games recently that I don't think we take, we kind of take for granted a little bit. The 180 ramp is redefining pinball as like, you know how we're taking out pop bumper nests? I feel like the 180 ramp does something very unique that has expanded on pinball. And the reason being is you get a lot of bang for your buck in a very small area. And so like with Jurassic Park, it creates a lot more real estate, but it creates a very dynamic shot right in the middle of the play field. And then like look on Godzilla, the back left ramp is actually one of those 180 ramps that flips it back. It creates, it's got, it's so perfected that typically a shot like this could either clunk or it would be very hard to hit. It would reject a lot. Somehow they've perfected it and just made it smooth. And in the past, I've been thinking about this. In the past, this shot was only accomplished by a vertical up kicker. You would shoot it into a saucer, and then that saucer would be hit by a vertical up kicker. I mean, look at – my best example would be like Dr. Dude when you're shooting the – I think it's not the heart ramp. It's one of those, but you'd shoot it into a saucer and then a vertical up kicker. It's the same idea. It's Simpsons pinball party. You shoot it in the garage. you have to wait for it to kick up. Correct. You're cutting out time for the ball to be moving. You get faster movement. Your bomb is lower because you're cutting out a coil, which you can, and then that's node board space. I just, I think there's, as I'm dissecting more and more of Ellen's games, there's just little nuances like that because we don't have a vertical up kicker in that spot. that means that's money that can be spent somewhere else on the playfield. And so this is why Elwin is smart when he designs, because he's taking things like this, applying into the game which then Hugh can put more into the game And that why we get godzilla i can wait for his next game like i really excited like i excited iron man is here on friday um but i just iron maiden yeah my iron maiden's here on friday he said iron man sorry iron maiden and then uh whenever he releases his next one which rumor being is jaws well Well, Jaws too. But first of the year is probably when we're going to see it-ish. You hit on something that's really important, and the three-dimensionality that Elwin has brought to the design process where he has – it's not like he's designing a complete flat play field. I mean everyone has habit trails. Everyone has everything like that. But the velocity at which he incorporates the 3D space above the play field is what has made him be the new king of flow. He really is. The ball does not stop. You can keep that ball flying around, and it creates that kinetic momentum that we're all craving for in pinball. so that's exactly what it is and think about the economy of a shot it basically takes something that could have been a scoop shot and makes it into a very dynamic high flow shot and I will say the vertical the reversi ramps they don't clunk they don't, there's so much velocity of those things going in that it just flies so absolutely if if there's one thing that has changed the game for pinball it's the velocity at which you are playing constantly by by his economy of design kind of said better so all right let's move on to this godzilla topper okay um Okay, am I an idiot? I am actually buying the topper. I'm buying the topper because it's a game that I'm going to keep for a long time. I don't see me selling Godzilla really anytime soon, if ever. I agree. Okay. So my thought was, okay, if I want to buy it, I should buy it now. Okay. um the the challenge that i have with stern's approach to toppers and their accessories is that i wish they had the same commitment to excellence and quality and value for their accessory kit that they do for their machines when you buy a game Yes. Okay. It's still expensive, right? I mean, this is, these are small cars here. It's still expensive, but you know, I'm buying this game and compared to what else is out there, I'm getting a higher quality, a higher fun game for 2000 cheaper than I'm getting other options. Yeah. So why don't they have a dedicated team that all they're doing is making cool looking stuff? And the topper, they have disguised their toppers by adding a boatload of lights. So they have become Walmart displays and end cap toppers. That's what they've become. Where you go into Walmart, there's an end cap, which is the premium real estate in the store, right? Because everybody walks past the end caps. So there's something that's eye-catching. So, yes, it still accomplishes the job. You see Godzilla. But, my gosh, is it not exactly the same Godzilla that's on the play field already? I'm pretty for sure it is that same model. It looks exactly the same. And so you have this exactly the same. You have this smoke fire thing that they stole from the Addams Family. and put up there they have are the tanks aren't even 3d right they're like plastic to their flat plastic yeah they're flat plastic okay i will say a plus for all of elwyn's games my gosh his toppers fra like that stern produces for his games are the laziest toppers ever yeah they are super lazy like the godzilla or the uh the jurassic park topper you know what there were better alternatives out there. There really were. And I understand the better alternatives weren't paying licensing. They were certainly operating in a gray area, if that is even a thing, because they were unlicensed. And so they had a lot more freedom to do whatever they wanted. But they at least provided something that was visually more interesting. and I will say the you know the Infinity Quest topper it's fine it's layered but it still feel it's 2D lights it's 2D plastic with a whole bunch of lights which still yeah it looks good from a distance but man when you compare these to any topper that Chicago Gaming Company has done it's laughable they look like they they look like they are not putting forth the effort. I appreciate that they have gone to the effort of putting art blades, which I know it's just, it's eye candy, right? But they look good. Like the only, the only art blades that I didn't like really were Mandalorian art blades because it was just the heads, but that's a style question, right? It just wasn't my thing. But if you look at the topper game that they're bringing, it, It's just not there. And everybody says it. Okay, vote with your wallet, which is fine. I totally get it. I'm willing to buy it because I want a complete game. But there are some parts of their games that I – like I did not buy the shooter rod, the Godzilla egg shooter rod. Because I actually bought two shooter rods, which were cool, but they don't really help out gameplay. like the the shooter rod on uh infinity quest the shooter rod on jurassic park i use the button anyway to launch anyway and the the um the shooter rod that they use for uh avengers infinity quest the the spring is the wrong spring you full plunge it and it doesn't even do that so i i the question is who is why don't they have a dedicated team they are making so much money off this stuff and i totally understand this is me being a fan boy who is complaining but having a thousand dollar topper for a game that costs you know 10 to 10 to 15 percent of a game yeah there there does come a point where you're thinking wow you really are just fleecing people who uh just have more money than than they know what to do with and so so maybe maybe my bar should be higher for toppers, and I should give games a little more of a pass. Man, you're getting kind of worked up there, like the deep conversation. No, it's just... For a man buying this topper, he sure... I still think it will... Okay, the fire mode in the back actually looks kind of cool. It really does. It has the fire thing going up on the buildings. It does make it feel like a complete game. They do put a lot of lights interaction in it, so that is something to do it. but the gap between what I want them to make in a topper and what they are making is wide. Yeah. Okay. We got to take into consideration though, that, okay. If zombie Yeti is on venom, right. And he just did Foo Fighters. That's back to back releases. Yeah. And a year or two ago, he had Avengers and turtles, which were back-to-back releases so obviously zombie yeti is at max capacity right sure right and to keep these toppers cohesive he is the one doing the topper art as well because he talked on turtles he actually tapped his his daughter yes his daughter he brought his job did a guest art yeah absolutely yeah so so the the thing is is the toppers are an afterthought A complete afterthought, which is why I'm saying why don't they have a topper team? Like have three people on it. I agree, but who do you tap to be your artist then to keep it cohesive? Because Zombie Yeti, you still have to do the art, and really those toppers are mostly art with some light. Well, okay, but that's what they've defaulted to. If they had a better Godzilla sculpt up there, then you don't really need Zombie Yeti. Like, I guarantee Zombie Yeti didn't do the Godzilla doll in there. True. So I guess that does bring – you would either have to step up your game to the point that you're doing nothing but 3D models. You're going the CGC route. And you're putting behind the cohesiveness of the art. Like, if you're doing 3D models, it's probably going to be cohesive anyway. But, yeah, I agree with you on that point. And it's so weird to me because these accessories come out and then they release once a year. It's so weird. And then we don't see them again for another year or something like that. I don't fully understand. Is it just a side project, a side hustle for Stern? Yeah. However, they could make – okay, this is me again. I will pull out my Josh Sharpe fact-checking red card and say I have nothing to back my statements up. I don't work in marketing. I haven't done the analysis on it. However, when Medieval Madness decided to up their game for their topper, I bought their topper, which was like $750 or $800. And it is a 3D sculpt that has lights on it, right? That's all. And it looks so good. And you can't tell me that you can't do a similar thing for a decent profit margin. You could buy a $300 Godzilla toy and glue it to the top of your game, and it would look more connected to the game than having a zip-tied Godzilla up there. So I think here's where everyone's having the issue. It doesn't look fantastic. It doesn't look – okay, I won't say it doesn't look terrible. Okay, I will say it's a Toyota Corolla. It's functional. It looks fine. It gets you from point A to B, but would you rather have that or, I don't know, a Corvette? Yeah, but my point being is I think this is where people are having an issue is either go the $1,000 price tag and build quality. Right. Like I didn't hear any – like yeah, two grand was a lot for a Mandalorian topper. Yeah, and I will say that that wasn't – for me, that was a bridge too far. But I didn't – they may have complained about the price, but I didn't feel like they complained about the quality of the topper. Either – you got to understand, like a lot of people are new into this hobby. Stern toppers went to $1,000 with what? Like it wasn't even Black Knight sort of rage. It was after that. it's only been in the last two three years and even then an expensive hopper which was the black knight topper was 650 brand new on the box and that's actually amazing wasn't that 450 to start with i don't think it was but i think the toppers before the flat plastic ones like the deadpool one was 400 bucks and so it's like either go back to the 400 price tag and do flat plastics or meet the quality of the $1,000 price tag. But here's the problem. People are buying it. Yeah. People are buying it. I totally get it. Why is there any motive for Stern? Apparently they can take the toy off of Godzilla's play field. They're like, oh, we'll just produce more of these. Slap it on a topper with some LEDs and some flat plastics, and there's $1,000. Okay, just looking at the picture of the topper again, do you know what it looks like? Godzilla is an elf and talking to Mr. Narwhal before he hops off on the iceberg. That's what it looks like. It's Mr. Narwhal popping out of the top of the Godzilla game. Gotcha. Okay, yeah. Yeah. I guess, are they selling though? Because I've heard from some distributors they can't keep them in stock. I know some people have backed out. Are they still making? Maybe they're making what they want out of it. True. But my point being is, this is like, so I heard some distributors can't keep these in stock. I've heard other distributors that are trying to pawn this, get other distributors to buy it because they can't sell them at all. So it's this weird mix of like, some are selling, some are not. Some are embarrassed to even be having this product because they don't feel like it matches the quality of what a startup product should be. If your distributor feels that way, you should rethink things. Yeah. It's, yeah. I, I just wish that... You're right. It's the Guardians of the Galaxy topper, which they're not even making anymore. I mean, that was $400 or something. And it completed the visual aspect of the game, and I'm not really complaining about that one. The other ones, it just feels like they've gotten lazier and more expensive. I agree. I think if you made a flat pass, if you went into the topper game right now, I know everyone wants to go bigger and better because the first thing I saw after this was announced was like three other mod companies like check out our gods are the topper. It's better. Whatever. I'm like, if you really want to make some money, maybe you won't. You just 3D print a bunch of flat plastics and stick it on a topper with some LEDs and sell it for 200 bucks, 300 bucks. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. The Measel Mods has one that you can put up there that's cheaper and that is licensed. So yeah. All right. Let's move on to – there's a topic that I've wanted to hit for a couple episodes now. I feel like a lot of people aren't talking about it. Maybe they are. I don't know. My pinball podcasts lately have been very narrowed down. I do listen to pinball podcasts, but it feels like the content is not being put out as much anymore as well. Anywho, the topic at hand, I want to talk about the used market. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Um, we've seen a decline definitely in the last six months. Um, I will start off by saying though, I don't think everyone keeps saying the bubble is going to burst. I think for the bubble to burst, um, like that means we're going back to ground zero. I just don't see that happening with pinball. I don't see if I know that flattens, that's what's going to happen. It does flatten and depress a lot. Like the housing market. But I don't think we see the mid-2000s of where used pinball machines were just being thrown in the trash versus being worth it. People still want to restore these. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we get back to that point where you can get a pinball machine for like $500. That's a modern pinball machine. Definitely EM all day. But what I'm seeing now, and it's because I've just been trying to sell pinball machines, which I am now glad that the machines I need sold are gone because it's been a pain in the neck. It really has. I had one person offer me half of what I was asking for Guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah. Half. I didn't even want to – all the emotions that came with that, I just said no. yeah i just i'm not even justifying you with like a you know a very wordy text let's just put that right no no thanks that's not so friendly and and they they were ballsy enough to write back well if you change your mind we're more than happy to take it off your hands i'm like i want to save this person next time they're selling like i'm just going to hit them for every ad on facebook and be like hey will you take half will you take half i'll take it off your I will say that that's – by the way, I just sent you a few links to some 3D options for – Oh, okay. There's basically things that you could just glue on the top of your machine and it would look better for $100. There are people who are – I would say aggressive shoppers out there. And there's a tactic that if you – on eBay, it says a – I actually saw this about a week ago, a surprisingly effective strategy for – it was like or best offer. And it said 50% of what they're asking. and it was like a straight 50% because you're not going to get tons of hits but you're going to get enough where people are like yeah okay I just want to sell it so I think that you're getting a lot of people who have that tactic that they're just they shooting 50 out there and just see you know it like throwing the fishing line in the water to see what happens And sometimes you may get that owner who like I just want to get rid of it and move on I got our house for actually a really good deal. We walked into about $50,000 in equity, and what happened is that they listed the house, and they just want a quick sale. yeah so they so it ended up that we we saw like the house was on the market for four days and they had four offers yeah so i understand however i i will say it feels a little bit like are you kidding me like you know and so i don't know and like i get i don't know like i had people offering me eight hundred dollars less than i was asking but at that point and then i feel like it can counter back like, yeah, it's a little, but this is, this is where I can go. There's some negotiation room. When you're taking $3,700 off of a machine, that's what it is. It's a straight 50%. They are not, uh, because they say you're actually getting, uh, your success rate is higher on offering 50% than it is an offering 60% or 70% because it's a quick, easy calculation for the owner. It's a weird tactic. I totally understand why you can be miffed on something that you're trying to sell for $7,000 and they're offering $3,500, but it is a well-known tactic. So I think the other thing, okay, I've got some cold hard facts. Let's go through this really quick about the used market. You and I were discussing this before the episode. unless if you're an elwynn let's go let's hit godzilla because godzilla is in second place right now to foo fighters because you know that's wow the newest okay yeah that that's a that's some great inflation right there so we all know once the new hotness comes out it always goes number one um okay godzilla there are eight for sale on the market right now this is we're doing everything you through pin side i'm not going okay the cheapest right now for sale that it doesn't have a pending is 9900 uh and you can it looks like they're flowing around 99 10k 10 7 10 5 so it looks like l1 game like godzilla obviously is about or higher than new inbox which is what We've seen for the last couple of years. All right. The one that has, let's hurry and talk about, what was the other one that I was talking about? Iron Maiden. So, because my Iron Maiden Pro is going to be here on Friday. I was like, I was curious. There are four on the market. Out of those four, the very base one is $7,000 and it goes all the way up to $8,700. So, that's pretty good. That's a pretty good margin, right? Like that's still at a new inbox or higher. Okay. The one that I was, cause we've talked about this. I know you feel that Ninja Turtles isn't a fantastic game, but, uh, I, I prefer the pro over the premium. And I think that's what sour G was the premium. Well, it didn't help that my glider malfunctioned within like a week of me buying it. Correct. So a turtles premium, the very base right now mind you uh they're not making these anymore so i can't say like new unbox should be around 9700 because that's what premiums are going for right now right if it were if it were on the line today it would sell if it were on the line today but let's even go back to uh six months ago you're at eight not eight grand you're at nine grand right that's brand new out of the box because there was a 700 increase the base right now can you well you know the base right now is 7100 and that is sitting that's not even that that's that's a price of a pro new inbox okay well i also i read this off pin side that there is a pro a very well modded pro yes uh including the topper on turtles for 6 500 so if you want a turtles buy this now yeah um a lot of these other premiums are sitting around 8 8300 8400 i mean we're still lower than new in box it is what it is which is which is what it should be to be to be blunt a used game should go for 500 to 1,000 less than new. And it should. That's what the market should be. Let's pull up Mando's really quick. This is exciting. Everyone's like, oh. We can cut this part out. Actually, will you look up Mandalorian? I'm going to hurry. I want to talk Avengers because Avengers is still an Elwynn game, right? It is. It's considered probably, okay, out of the top 100, it's his lowest rated out of the top. What is it, 15 or 16? 19 now. I know. Life is rough when you're in at 19. How many does Steve Ritchie have in the top 10? Let's talk premiums. Right now, you're looking at a base 7,400. One just sold at 7,800. Yeah, 8,000. I see a 7,000 premium with mods. Yep. I see that. 7,300. Where are you seeing the 7,000? That one's 7,800. It's kind of crossed out, though. No, there's another one, 6,950. So if you're looking for an Avengers premium. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking at Mandalorians. You were looking at Avengers? Yeah, I heard you brought up Avengers while you were looking at Mandalorians. Okay, sorry. But my point being is this is an Elwynn game. You can tell your part. I probably won't. All right. But this is an Elwynn game, and the base is $7,400. They're still making these. Brand new off the line. It's going to be $9,700. I mean, that's a $7,400. That's a $2,300. Yeah, which, again, that's reasonable. I wonder how much shipping plays into this as well. Because last time I checked, shipping was ridiculous. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah, and also it's kind of a pain. I brought this up last time that my biggest hurdle to selling a game is I just hate the game of selling and dealing with people who are offering $3,000 for a $12,000 game. I just hate that. I sold my Mandalorian so I could buy Cactus Canyon. So that's what happened there. But it was to a friend. So that was pretty easy, yeah. So, yeah, getting back to Mandalorian, but, yeah, you're – Yes, I just pulled up Mando with you. Yeah, 7,000. 7,000, yeah. If you're in North Carolina area, do you want a Mando? Hey, there's one in Louisiana that you can get for $50 less. Good, crummy. And there's also eight on this one as well. We're starting to see a flood of the market. I don't know if it's because people – There's a 9,000 with animated Grogu. nice nice okay so in fairness that's what uh i you should anticipate spending 500 to a thousand less for a home use only uh uh game uh from from what the line is so that so i think that's reasonable to expect that um now but i think the days are gone of We're going to spend $9,700 on a new inbox and get $9,700 out of it. Oh, yeah. No, in very few games, we'll do that. And it's because this is Econ 110, boys and girls. Once the supply catches up with demand, there will be an adjustment to the curve. and and the uh the four trillion dollar uh rain checks are not coming in anymore the economy stimulation is has been spent yep and some of you spent your money unwisely yes yes you spent poorly yeah but like i said there's going to be some bright spots right in the user market. The Stranger Things is still going to sell high. They didn't make a ton of them. That's the supply and demand. Just getting back to supply and demand. The demand may not be as high for Stranger Things as it is for Godzilla, but the supply is way lower. Correct. Even though I think they should remake it to be plentiful. I think that should be something we should be talking about. I hear a lot of people getting frustrated with the market and the fact that new prices, new in-box prices are still pretty high and they don't seem to be trending down at all no um but that's the thing though is like the used market is coming down as people start turning towards the used market instead of buying new in box because that was kind of the joke with harry potter like it's going to come out new let's say it comes out like the base model is fifteen thousand dollars but i'll just wait three months and get it for ten i mean hobbits are going for like 8500 right yeah they I remember when you used to get them for $6,500. That feels about right for a Hobbit. It does. $8,500 feels about right. True. But my point being is that's what we're going to see for a little while. I'm sorry. I had to pull up Bond. I just had to. Oh, okay. So what is Bond selling for? Yeah, there's seven on the market right now. $5,600. For premium? No, this is a pro. for some odd reason oh they must not produce premiums that because there's not even a premium slot on uh no there's a top 100 there's a premium like well i know there's a premium what but if you want to if you want dr no pro 5600 yeah i was looking it up via guess okay we're at on the top 100 bond sets uh 99 70 yeah it's just i i bond should have been so much better i'm sorry it really should have been okay there's uh there is a bond premium for 7800 there's that's insane for a brand that game's been out not even a year yeah and that's that's sad so it's uh well okay so what about bond uh bond 60 what's that going for because i know that's that's dropped a little bit that's a good question okay bond 60 pulling it up while you're looking that up though i just that's crazy to me that um i mean 5600 for james bond pro seriously if you're looking for a bond pro this is the way to go um le's are still setting you could they've got eight ads on here but bond 60 is around there's Around $17,000 to $18,000. And that's where you're going. And like I said, some of these, there is a total flood of the market, right? There is like the Turtles Premium. I'm pretty for sure. Let's see. Oh, I guess there was only seven ads. There is one, Mayweather's Avengers. There's like 21 of them sitting on the market. And you can go into Pinside and see how many games are sitting there, these games. I think that's, like you said, Econ 101. We're starting to see the market catch up. And so the collection is not at value where it was, but I think people are going to be a lot more choosy now when they go to get their new games. They're not going to just buy sight unseen. I mean, I guarantee that because we're seeing a lot of that drop off. Like I said, Avengers, there's 21 of them on the market right now for premiums. and there's some pretty nice ones. I mean, there's one for $7,300 on here, tricked out. I mean, it is what it is, guys and gals. So, yeah, that's where we're heading. New in box, it's probably still staying strong, but used market is definitely coming down. We're getting into a buyer's market. If you guys are looking for that pinball machine you want, used might be the way to go. You're still not going to get a crazy deal unless someone is just trying to unload their stuff because the bottom line is once the prices drop a certain amount, people are like, oh, I'd rather keep the game. But I would say a safe value is to say if you can get it between – OK, we're taking shipping out of the equation. But if you can get it for $1,000 to $1,500 below what MSRP is, then I think that's a decent deal. If you're below $1,500, then, wow, you're certainly – you're trending into a great deal, especially if it's a home use only. But that's really where the market should always be. Yeah. Well, really, a 10% to 20% decrease from new in box isn't terrible. Well, I mean, new cars, you definitely take a bigger hit, at least 30% or more the second you drive it off the lot. So, and title, like I said, title is going to make a difference. Rarity is going to make a difference. So you're going to start seeing some more, you know, Attack from Mars and the Evil Madness flowing back up to the top price wise and stuff like that. I think that pretty much does it as far as your used market. I mean, there's your market trends, people. if you want those used games you can go out and get them one other I want to do one more shout out before we shut this down Don's Pinball Podcast if you haven't checked this out yet is like a 30 minute stream of the subconscious Don by himself just talking at you about current topics and just opinions and shouting out locations it's very well done I want to say it's very well produced I would say that we're more of a raw podcast where he's more... We're more of a conversation podcast. And we tend to lean heavily on interviews. So that's where our angle is. This is just a new fan, which is fun to get someone who's new, exposed to the world of pinball. And that excitement that you get when you first start a new hobby, you can definitely feel it with him. So go check it out. I actually sent him a quick message. is like, hey, good for you. Doing a solo podcast for 30 minutes, that's way more effort than I'm willing to do. Yeah. It's good. He's a lot more positive on some things that I feel like we've been pretty... He's also family-friendly, too. So if you're looking for another podcast that you can listen with the kids... Yeah. One that's not family-friendly, both these podcasts have cited us as part of their inspiration, which I feel shocked I'm shocked that anyone listens to us. You're like, I'm listening to Loser Kid and I should do that too. But Pinball Party, Jason from Pinball Party. It's awesome. And he is definitely not family friendly at all. The beautiful part of this is like movies. You're going to find movies that fit for every demographic. So good for you, right? But his show is really good too. It's highly produced as well. We are on YouTube. If you're super bored and want to look at two extremely sexy dudes talking into microphones, definitely you can check out our YouTube link but if you have any questions please reach out let us know your thoughts if you have any hot takes that or if you just want to let us know that we're way off on some of our takes then we always like want to hear the feedback so definitely so if you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com you can get a hold of us on Facebook Instagram Twitter Twitch YouTube all at loser kid pinball and if you want that sweet sweet swag is silverballswag.com slash loser kid we do this every couple weeks give or take and anything else if there's a topic you want us to cover shoot us a message definitely I know we've got a couple interviews coming up like we always do but it's nice just to stop and smell the roses and shoot the pinball breeze occasionally alright y'all take care Thank you. Shut up and sit down.ーン també