Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

The Emancipation of Haggis Pinball's Marty Robbins

Kaneda Pinball Podcast YouTube (main)·video·1h 9m·analyzed·Oct 23, 2024
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Kaneda condemns Marty Robbins and Jeff Teolis for Haggis collapse accountability erasure.

Summary

Kaneda delivers a lengthy, pointed critique of Marty Robbins' role in Haggis Pinball's collapse and Jeff Teolis' attempt to rehabilitate his reputation. Kaneda argues Robbins was complicit in the fraud—not an innocent employee—and accuses Teolis of revisionist history, smugness, and shirking responsibility despite his platform's influence. He pledges to 'whack-a-Marty' if Robbins attempts a community comeback.

Key Claims

  • Marty Robbins was Damien Harden's lead designer and co-face of Haggis Pinball, not an innocent low-level employee

    high confidence · Kaneda cites media interviews, photos, and public representation showing Robbins as partner with Harden

  • Haggis Pinball customers lost approximately $2 million total; individual customers like Zach Mennie lost $70,000, RS Pinball lost ~$100,000

    high confidence · Kaneda references liquidation list and specific named victims

  • Haggis faked a production video for Fathom to mislead customers about manufacturing progress

    medium confidence · Kaneda references the fake video but notes some content was 'yanked down'

  • Jeff Teolis lost only a small Centaur deposit while others lost tens of thousands, yet he is defending Robbins

    high confidence · Teolis acknowledges June 2023 Centaur deposit in quoted audio

  • Final Round Podcast strategically avoided covering Haggis troubles while Robbins was on-air for an entire year

    high confidence · Kaneda argues Final Round covered pinball industry broadly but omitted Haggis despite Robbins' connection

  • Haggis released Centaur deposits before fulfilling Fathom orders (robbing Peter to pay Paul)

    high confidence · Kaneda cites liquidation list showing majority were Fathom orders; Teolis confirms June 2023 Centaur deposit timing

  • Kaneda publicly warned against Haggis, Highway Pinball, and Deep Root before their collapses while other media ignored red flags

    medium confidence · Kaneda claims he 'waved the red flag' on multiple companies; implicit self-reference to past coverage

  • Robert Mueller and Deep Root Pinball received $61 million in customer deposits with no games delivered

    medium confidence · Kaneda references $61 million figure for Deep Root; specific sourcing unclear

Notable Quotes

  • “When you go back and look at photos of Haggis Pinball, go look at the media interviews. Who's wearing the Haggis sweatshirts. It's CEO Damien Harden and his lead designer, Marty Robbins, right?”

    Kaneda@ 2:35 — Core argument that Robbins was a visible co-face of company, not low-level employee

  • “Haggis Pinball is not Enron. It's not Bernie Madoff. It's not Tyco. It's not a company where he was one of a thousand or ten thousand or one hundred thousand employees... It was four to five people working in Haggis at most at any time.”

    Kaneda@ 4:49 — Argues small company size made Robbins' knowledge of problems inevitable

  • “I will happily invite Marty Robbins and Jeff Teolis onto my show anytime they want... If Canada went on final round, trust me, it would be the final round of final round.”

    Kaneda@ 15:30 — Direct challenge to both Teolis and Robbins; threat of contentious confrontation

  • “Every time Marty Robbins wants to pop his head back up and watch movies and Jeff Teolis wants to have revisionist history, Kanae is going to whack a Marty.”

    Kaneda@ 21:39 — Announces intent to publicly counter any Robbins community comeback attempt

  • “Zach Mennie is out $70,000... that's like that's like a two years of college tuition for his children. If they go out of state in state, it's probably their whole college tuition lost for one of his children.”

    Kaneda@ 14:26 — Emphasizes scale of customer losses and human impact

  • “I wasn't the one taking the money. And that being said, I think of Damien and who I've met a bunch of times. I always liked Damien.”

Entities

Marty RobbinspersonJeff TeolispersonDamien HardenpersonKanedapersonHaggis PinballcompanyFinal Round Pinball PodcastorganizationZach Mennie

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Pattern of pinball fraud: Haggis, Deep Root, Highway Pinball all cited as examples of pre-announcing new games to fund earlier failed projects (robbing Peter to pay Paul)

    high · Kaneda identifies Centaur deposits (June 2023) as red flag while Fathom remained unfulfilled; notes this pattern across multiple manufacturers

  • ?

    business_signal: Fast Pinball (Aaron Davis) profited from Haggis collapse by supplying boards and getting paid while customers lost deposits

    medium · Kaneda notes Aaron 'made money off this kerfuffle' by getting paid before shipment while others lost deposits

  • ?

    community_signal: Implicit criticism of Kerry Hardy for unboxing/promoting Centaur without questioning company's ability to deliver

    medium · Kaneda: 'Kerry Hardy was in on it, helping them unbox and celebrate the game. And nobody was like, hey, time out'

  • ?

    community_signal: Haggis Pinball collapse involving ~$2M in customer losses; Marty Robbins and Jeff Teolis attempting reputation rehabilitation while community demands accountability

    high · Extensive discussion of customer losses, fake production videos, and strategic media avoidance; Teolis quoted attempting revisionist framing

  • ?

    community_signal: Kaneda announces confrontational content strategy ('whack-a-Marty') to publicly counter Robbins' reintegration attempts

    high · Explicit statements: 'Every time Marty pops his head up... Kanae is going to whack a Marty... whack, whack'

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.208

0:00
Alright, we're going to try this again. Alright, so here's the thing everybody. Here's the thing. We're going to make sure everybody gets this video.
0:11
And we're going to make sure that the sound is working right. And then I'm going to go. Because, you know, when I was doing all my Metallica stuff yesterday. And everyone was going crazy. Josh, let me know. Is the audio and the video synced? Because if it synced, we're going. And I want everybody to hear this show. Because this is probably something that I, you know. It got deleted by mistake yesterday when I was taking down all my Metallica stuff because everyone went crazy when I'm trying to flip a Metallica. But let me know if this voice and video are synced up, Josh. Can you say yes? And then you're gonna be the dude that kicks this thing off because people just told me it wasn't synced up. How we sounding, everybody? How we, is it sounding good? Are you picking it up? Is there a delay? Let me know. Let me know because I'm gonna figure this out. Now it's good. All right, because it was, it was because I was recording on YouTube at the same time. So I'm going to go widescreen here. I'm going to go widescreen here and I'm going to make sure everybody hears this because here's the deal. Here's the deal. We're basically happening. You know, what's basically happening right now is this. There is an effort to bring Marty Robbins back into the pinball community and it is happening by no other than his boys, Jeff Teolis, his podcast partner, and Ryan C., a man who nobody knows what he does for a living. And I'm just going to say this right now. I'm going to say this right now. This topic needs to be discussed like this because you're not going to hear it from any other shows. This is, when you talk about Kameda and how I've done this for over a decade, part of my allure, if you will, is I hold these companies accountable when they do stuff like this. And I hold individuals accountable when they rip people off and they knowingly take money. Who was waving the red flag about highway pinball when no other content creator was? I was. Who was waving the red flag about Skip Deep? I was. Who was waving the red flag about Damien when he was telling people, you're going to have your game. You're going to have your game in eight weeks and eight months would go by. No games were had. Now, look, you got to remember what's happening now. Jeff Teolis is trying to pave the way for his friend, Marty Robbins, who was Damien's partner. When you go back and look at photos of Haggis Pinball, go look at the media interviews. Who's wearing the Haggis sweatshirts. It's CEO Damien Harden and his lead designer, Marty Robbins, right? Marty was designing his War of the World games. It's never coming out. Like these guys were the two main units that were out there in the media that were representing this company that were instilling confidence in people that they were going to get products from them, right? And Marty did a podcast for an entire year. People, you have to remember this. He did the show with Jeff Teolis, as people were worried about where their games were, every time Marty would go on the final round with Jeff, he would be smug. He would laugh in people's faces. He would never give people an answer about where their games were, where their money was. He didn't even give updates most of the time because as they covered the pinball industry, they strategically selected to not talk about the very company that Marty Robbins is a partner in with Damien, right? And not only that, you have to remember this. When they went down that road of clearly the financials were in trouble, they went down a road of launching Centaur and using Jeff's platform, you know, instilling confidence with Marty, parading the game around, even Kerry Hardy was in on it, helping them unbox and celebrate the game. And nobody was like, hey, time out. How are you releasing Centaur when you haven't built 100 fathoms? Look at that list, everybody, who's owed money by the liquidators. It's like 100 people, right, who bought a fathom or a centaur and they didn't make those games. A lot of them were fathoms. So they were robbing Peter to pay And I don't buy this revisionist history that is happening right now, which is basically this, that Marty Robbins was an employee of Haggis. He didn't know. He didn't know what was going on. Let me tell you right now. Marty Robbins knew. All right. Haggis Pinball is not Enron. It's not Bernie Madoff. It's not Tyco. It's not a company where he was one of a thousand or ten thousand or one hundred thousand employees. He wasn't this innocent victim in which how could he possibly have known the insidious behavior that was happening by senior leadership? Right. Let's stop with that. It was four to five people working in Haggis at most at any time. Most of the times it was just Damien and Marty's shoes in the corner and that was it. This wasn't a big company. And he had to know when he walked in there, there's not games going out the door. He had to know if his eyes work that he read Pinside and all these customers were like waiting on their games. So if he's reading that people are waiting eight months for a game they paid for and they were promised it in eight weeks, why didn't Marty have a little dinner with his boy, Damien, and say, hey man, I'm out there all the time as a public face of this company telling people things are okay. I'm laughing with my boy, Jeff Teolis, on his show that people just don't know what they're talking about. And now we get to here, right? All the red flags I was waving were accurate. If you listen to me, you were never going to go in on a centaur in a million years, But I was unkind. I'm the toxic pinball podcaster. What does he know? You know, now I'm looking at my friends who have lost tens of thousands of dollars. Zach Mennie's out $70,000. RS Pinball is out like $100,000. Todd McCulloch lost like $13,500. You go down a list of all these people that are the friends of the community that had trust and faith in Marty. They had trust and faith in Damien. They had trust and faith in Jeff Teolis. and now everybody just wants immunity and just wants to blame it all on Damien, right? It's all Damien's fault. Nobody else should have known better. As if Jeff Teolis' platform carries no responsibility for asking questions. He wants to give immunity to Steve Bowden. Poor Steve Bowden. How did he know? Are you kidding me? Steve Bowden walks through the door of Deep Root for years. Nothing's getting built. Robert Mueller's spending money like it's crazy. Steve Bowden can't put two and two together. How are we spending all this money, Robert, if no games are going out? All right, I don't care if you have like a fifth grade education. On some level, you have to know how business works. If no money is going in the register and nothing's going out, or all this money's going in the register, right? $61 million in the register for Deep Root, and we haven't handed anybody a single burrito. So aren't all those customers that put money in the register, Robert? Aren't they gonna, aren't we not doing it right? Doesn't stuff need to go out? And so what's happening now is this. Jeff Teolis and his boy Ryan C wants to pave the way for Marnie Robbins to come back. And what are they doing? Who are they insulting? Who are the, they're insulting us. I want to play for you what Jeff Teolis calls the pinball community. I want to play for you what he thinks about this whole thing before he takes his show down because he will. And, you know, it's smug. He's got that same smug like like intro to his show. What is this? A podcast like we've all been waiting. We've all been waiting. And the reason why I'm doing this is like Marty Robbins' fate in pinball is the same fate of Andrew Highway, of Skidby. Marty, when you go all in like this and you do this and you burn customers and you're part of the organization that burned customers, you're done. Like you're done. You know, like there's really unless you find a way to partner up with Damien, sell his Lotus, you know, sell some of his real estate properties. Unless you find a way to say you're sorry and pay people back for all the money your entity has robbed from the community. I don't see how you're just going to come back and think we're going to welcome you back. Like it doesn't work like that. And again, these guys can't help their smugness. they can't help it. Like it's just in their nature to think that they're better than the community. And I want to play for you right now, you know, what Jeff Teolis thinks of us, how he thinks about Marty and what he's trying to do here. And we're going to stop it as I go through to analyze, you know, this whole thing. And I'm sorry this got taken down yesterday. If you're just joining, I'm doing this on Australian hours. So our boy Marty can probably go watch this. I'm going to upload this to YouTube. But again, I'm not going to curse. I'm not going to, you know, like I'm not, I'm not saying anything other than this is wrong. You don't get to do this, Jeff. You don't get to have this revisionist history and then just give immunity because he's your friend. I get it. Like your friend got involved with someone, but they all got involved with it together and they should have known better. And every excuse in the book. Think about it. All the excuses they have in the world about COVID, the war in Russia, why everyone else survived. Everybody else survived without ripping people off except for Haggis Pinball, right? Did any other pinball company close its doors during the same time period Haggis Pinball was trying to make their games? Heck, even Pinball Adventures has gotten people successfully their punny factories that were ordered, right? Ninja Eclipse is doing fine. everybody survived without stealing lying and misleading but you know what not these guys and you don't get to just erase all that okay let's play this real quick well that's funny you should talk about that because uh marty and i may have recorded an episode of final round and obviously that didn't happen because when we recorded it shortly afterwards uh the guffawful with Haggis happened. The guffawful with Haggis happened. Okay, okay. Let's just, let's stop there on that guffawful. Because, you know, even like Jeff is like, oh, you know, like we recorded an episode and just unbeknownst to us, the guffawful with Haggis pinball happened. And I'm just thinking to myself, wait a minute, wait a minute. So Marty Robbins is Damien's lead designer. He's as close to Damien and that company as possible. He has no idea after that restructuring and recapitalization notice went out. He has no idea the state of Haggis. He's just in the blind like everybody else. I don't buy that. And it just goes to show you he doesn't care. He didn't care to follow up to really dig into that company and make sure, you know, he was like in line and had a line of sight to what the reality was. And if you do, and if he knew the ship was sinking, which I think he did, don't record podcasts. Don't be smug. You know, don't do all this. Like, don't act like everything's cool. And you can just go about business as usual. You're not, it's like there comes a point where you have to like alter your behavior and start to figure out a way out. No, he didn't do anything. He didn't warn anybody. He didn't apologize. He didn't do anything. He just wanted to have fun and do his shows with Jeff, the guffawful. All right, that guffawful, Jeff, cost the community $2 million, all right? It's not a guffawful. A guffawful is when, you know, Kaneda gets a little buzz and throws a drink. A guffawful is when, you know, Rob Burke tries to escort me out of Pinball Expo but realizes I'm just there to have fun. That's a good fuffle. A $2 million loss of money by the community is a humongous tragedy to the pinball community. That $2 million has evaporated. All the games that could have been made, all the salaries that could have been paid, all the fun and enjoyment, those people on that list now for the rest of their lives are going to feel some of that pain that Marty and gaming caused them okay let's keep going and i'm not gonna not avoid that but here's a couple things one uh i talk to marty every single week so that if you're wondering how that's going great he's doing fine okay i i mean how many of you have been wondering how marty's been doing poor marty Poor Marty, the victim. Marty Robbins, how you doing, Marty? How's it going? Oh, this is so tragic for you, you victim. Oh, you were so smug and you were so bold and brazen. All those months and years you laughed in everybody's face, you wanted an update on your company and you led people to lose more money. Oh, I'm glad Jeff is checking in on you weekly. Like you're a victim. him. How about you check in on Zach many Jeff? How many times have you called Zach many and asked him how you doing, Zach? You've got your beautiful family and this company just took $70,000 off the plate. I mean, that's like that's like a two years of college tuition for his children. If they go out of state in state, it's probably their whole college tuition lost for one of his children. But how are you doing, Marty? And I know all you will be glad to know that Marty is fine. You know, you hear this, that the way he speaks is in this, this, that it's like, and you're going to see more of it. It's coming up where he brought strokes that everybody's empathizing with Marty, that everyone's on Marty's side, that it's just a little group of Canadian and keyboard losers on pin side. It's just a little group of people that have the issue with Marty. Everybody else understands that Marty did nothing wrong. Okay, Jeff, sure. Keep going down the road with that narrative. And by the way, I just want to say for the record, I will happily invite Marty Robbins and Jeff Teolis onto my show anytime they want. I will happily go on any of their shows anytime they want. If Canada went on final round, trust me, it would be the final round of final round. Okay, so let's keep going though. It gets even better. Obviously, there were some tough times there when this first happened, but I'm not going to speak on behalf of Marty. Marty will do that on this podcast. Can't wait. Can't wait for Marty's return to give us all of his excuses how he's an innocent victim. Final round, not consolation round. He'll do that on final round. The other thing too is final round is not a Haggis podcast. It never has been. So it just happened to be that he worked there. It didn't just happen to be, Jeff. And I love this, the marginalization of the facts. The fact is this, Jeff, your co-host is Damien's number two, right? Okay, you can't avoid that. You can't marginalize that. You can't sweep that under the rug. And he's trying to do that now because he knows if we go back and we listen to final round and we map all the smug moments, Marty like laughed in the faces of people who wanted Haggis updates or avoided Haggis updates while the building was on fire. Right. So like if I'm if I was if I was Marty and I'm working and Haggis is my publicly facing pinball company that I've been a part of. I launched the Fathom game with Damien. I wore the sweatshirts, the cozies, the hats. I got interviewed by media as his partner. Go look at all the stories. Do you need me to show you the photos? It is absolutely hysterical to me hysterical to me that Jeff Teoldis wants to clarify that he not it was not a Haggis Pinball podcast We know that Let's do Marty Robbins right now. Let me just show you real quick. When you start doing media interviews, pinball, it's interesting to me how they like, are pinball wizards, right? These guys were doing media out there in Australia, are pinball wizards. It wasn't, you know, it's not Damien and anybody else. It's not, it's these two guys. Let's turn the camera around.

Jeff Teolis (quoted/played audio)@ 28:34 — Teolis defending Damien as personally likable despite business failure; Kaneda uses to argue evasion

  • “It would be, I would be like, oh, maybe I feel like I could have done more, but it wasn't my company to do anything.”

    Jeff Teolis (quoted/played audio)@ 25:16 — Teolis minimizing his platform responsibility; Kaneda directly rebuts this framing

  • “When things started to look like something's off... you guys knew that something was off. You've seen other companies, you know how manufacturing works... The problem is, Jeff, during that entire year, you guys didn't ask any questions.”

    Kaneda@ 26:23 — Core accusation that Final Round had platform responsibility to investigate and question

  • “The moment they were taking deposits... on Centaur. That is the moment I knew they were done... It'd be different if they revealed Centaur, but no deposits.”

    Kaneda@ 33:38 — Explains red flag indicator for pinball company fraud (pre-orders before fulfilling current orders)

  • “Marty Robbins' fate in pinball is the same fate of Andrew Highway, of Skidby. Marty, when you go all in like this and you do this and you burn customers and you're part of the organization that burned customers, you're done.”

    Kaneda@ 8:22 — Explicit statement that Robbins cannot return to community respectability without restitution

    • person
    RS Pinballcompany
    Todd McCullochperson
    Robert Muellerperson
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Andrew Highwayperson
    Steve Bowdenperson
    Aaron Davisperson
    Duck Pinballperson
    Kerry Hardyperson
    Ryan C.person
    Rob Burkeperson
    Joshperson
    ?

    community_signal: Kaneda positions himself as sole critical voice holding companies accountable; other media (Final Round, Kerry Hardy) accused of complicity through silence or cheerleading

    high · Kaneda repeatedly claims uniqueness of his accountability stance; criticizes other creators for avoiding Haggis issues

  • ?

    event_signal: TPF 2023 (Texas Pinball Festival): Damien Harden booth with Aaron Davis and others; cited as evidence Teolis witnessed Haggis operations despite later claims of distance

    medium · Teolis states: 'I was last saw him at TPF in 2023. I saw Fathom. I saw Kelts'

  • $

    market_signal: Jeff Teolis using humor and casual framing ('guffawful') to minimize fraud's severity; Kaneda criticizes as tone-deaf given $2M community loss

    high · Teolis jokes about movie reviews, Marty watching movies; Kaneda rebukes as inappropriate for crisis situation

  • ?

    community_signal: Marty Robbins attempting to return to pinball community after Haggis collapse; Jeff Teolis using Final Round platform to facilitate comeback

    high · Teolis quotes: 'Expect Marty in the near future'; Kaneda pledges 'whack-a-Marty' counter-campaign

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Haggis employees (Duck Pinball, others) quit due to non-payment; Kaneda argues Marty Robbins would have witnessed this, contradicting innocence narrative

    medium · Kaneda references Duck Pinball departure from Argentina and unpaid employees as observable facts Robbins could not have missed

  • ?

    product_concern: Haggis Pinball faked production video for Fathom to mislead customers; broader pattern of deceptive marketing alongside Andrew Highway Alien Day videos

    medium · Kaneda references fake production line videos; notes similar pattern with Highway's 'staged' Alien Pinball content

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Significant deterioration of Marty Robbins' community reputation; Kaneda represents hardline accountability position against rehabilitation narrative

    high · Kaneda positions himself as public accountability mechanism; claims others unwilling to confront Robbins/Teolis

    • 17:51
    Look, look, here we go. Our pinball wizards. There's your media story. Look who it is. Look, you don't see anybody else. Oh, look, and look what game they're standing in front of. Kelts and Fathom. All right, so don't try to change the fact that it was you, it was you, Marty. It was you, okay? The you are Damien's number two guy.
    18:21
    And, you know, I love the fact that they're trying to like spin this. And again, I think, you know, you can't hide from the facts.
    18:31
    Let's get this camera back here. All right. It was him. So yeah, we know it wasn't a haggis podcast, Jeff. We're not stupid, but like, it's like, come on, man, come on. Like he's Damien's partner in this whole thing. All right, so we go through that. Let's just get that out of the way. Let's continue to hear what Jeff Teel thinks of the community and all of us out there who really, you know, I can't wait to hear the name he calls all of us, right?
    19:02
    Don't expect us to be all haggis because we're not. This is a podcast about movie reviews and killing people. We mentioned pinball once in a while. That's it. Okay. Like there, it's a joke. Like he's making a joke. Like, I guess they did an episode where they did movie reviews. And I just like, if there's ever a context where like, it's not time to be smug. It's not time to be sarcastic. It's not time to be joking. It's now Jeff. Like Jeff, do you, and like he, look, he lost his centaur deposit. He's going to talk about that. But Jeff, like you lost so little money. You lost a little bit of a deposit on a centaur. And there are people that have lost tens of thousands of dollars. And it's just it's not funny to anybody. And again, it just goes to show you that I think they've always been smug. They've always sort of laughed in the face of the community. and it just has this air that they just think they're better than, I don't know, than the rest of us apparently. Where do you see what they think of us? I think they actually do think that. Here we go. But Marty will – I'll let Marty speak on behalf of himself. The movie review episode was your finest episode, Jeff, just letting you know. Can I tell you?
    20:20
    I've had a lot of people say we want more of that. So I'm hoping Marty has used this time to see a lot of movies because we.
    20:29
    Right. You hope Marty has spent this time to see a lot of movies. Do you hear these people? This is again. What are you doing, man? Like, I mean, I work in communications. I work in issues in crisis. And Marty Robbins is life right now when it comes to his relation to the pinball community is in crisis. and you hope that he's taking his time off to see a lot of movies. You understand, Jeff, like how wrong it is to say these jokes and to imply these things. Do you think people who have lost tens of thousands of dollars are enjoying movies right now? Do you think they're just brushing it under the rug like you're trying to do because you want to usher your boy back into pinball? I'm telling you, it's going to be like whack-a-mole. Every time Marty tries to pop his little head up, I'm going to whack it. You know, I'm not going to physically hit him and get any assault charges, but Kanae is going to be the content creator that whacks, whack, whack a Marty. Let's just call it what it is. Whack a Marty. Whack a Marty is going to be one of the things I now do as a pinball content creator. Every time Marty Robbins wants to pop his head back up and watch movies and Jeff Teolis wants to have revisionist history, Kanae is going to whack a Marty. Okay, there's Marty over here watching movies. Oh, Marty's going to the movie at three o'clock. Whack him. Marty's coming back on final round. Whack him. I'm going to whack him. It's not going to be, I'm not going to curse. I'm not going to slander the dude. Nope. You just don't get to come back now like this. It just doesn't work like that. All right, let's keep going. We've got to talk. Anyway, expect Marty in the near future. But again, not putting any words in his mouth. I know that if I went through what Marty did, if it was me and I was working at a dream job, working for a pinball company, and all of a sudden, through no fault of my own or Marty's, the company obviously folds and people with money, all that kind of stuff, I'd feel pretty shitty too. I would. Okay, right there, I want to stop there because that is a beautifully convenient way to try to distance Marty from the reality of Haggis and his mismanagement. And look, Marty was in the room. I want to reiterate this. Marty was there when they faked the production video for Fathom. Do you remember the video? Do I have to go back? I think they yanked all them down. Do I have to go back and remind you when Haggis Pinball faked that production video because it wasn't really a production line. And from the very beginning, Damien was making content with Marty, with the team that was meant to hoodwink people to believe things were going well. Right. And Andrew Highway did the same thing. Remember those Alien Day production videos with the long screwdrivers? And you ever wonder how a hex post is made? Everyone's like, what are you talking about? And you could see like it was all staged. And so Marty Robbins is now being relegated by Jeff to a just a lonely, low level employee who had stars in his eyes and a dream job. And, you know, how would you know? He didn't know anything going on. He wasn't a part of any of that stuff. He had no idea the shenanigans. You think Marty Robbins didn't know when Duck Pinball flew down or over to Australia from, where was he, from Buenos Aires or Argentina, when Duck Pinball went there, Marty didn't meet him, that they didn't connect, nobody got together, nobody had dinners, nobody realized what was going on. You don't think Marty Robbins was aware the reason Duck Pinball left is he wasn't paid, right? You don't think Marty realized all the employees of Haggis who quit because they weren't paid. You know, he somehow now he's like, now he's just an IT person who doesn't have any line of sight to senior management. He knew, he knew, right? It's like, he's not this victim. I mean, Jeff is trying to paint him as a victim of Damien. I mean, it's easy to do that, right? It's like these people who went to the Puff Daddy freak off events, right? You know, they're gonna try to say like, they were the victims of Puffy's terrible behavior. But you were at the parties, you participated, right? And I just wanna say that this does, again, you don't get to have revisionist history, Jeff. It doesn't work like that. Let's keep going. And let's keep going to see what he thinks of us. Here we go. It would be, I would be like, oh, maybe I feel like I could have done more, but it wasn't my company to do anything. I need to stop you there, Jeff. You keep acting like this wasn't Marty's company. He wasn't, like, was he not a part of this company, Jeff? Like, he's lead designer. He was lead designer. Like, you act like he has no responsibility, okay? He was Damien's right-hand man. Like, what is this? What is this? Like, oh, no, shucks. Like, okay, great. You know, it wasn't like Marty was going in. like, I don't know, once a month. But the thing is this, Jeff, and this is the part that Jeff also will avoid forever. When you're doing a podcast or a show and your podcast covers the community, you knew what was happening at Haggis, right? When things started to look like something's off, right? Something's off. When Damien was promising people games and it was taking nine months to not eight weeks, you guys knew that something was off. You've seen other companies, you know how manufacturing works, you know that that kind of business model doesn't work. The problem is, Jeff, during that entire year, you guys didn't ask any questions, you didn't ask Marty to ask Damon, hey, before we, you know, you're so closely connected to this company, Marty, like, what's going on here? because this platform of mine is actually giving people confidence in the company. Because here's the thing, Jeff, confidence isn't just speaking literally about haggis. If Marty Robbins is coming on your show for that entire year, people are struggling to get their games. and he's acting confident, arrogant, smug, laughing in the face of people who are concerned about Haggis, if he's acting that way, don't you think, I wanna get my Leloo in here a little bit, don't you think, I got this amazing pedelement, look at that.
    27:35
    Don't you think on some level, like you guys like have a responsibility to make sure that you're like actually giving people like a line of sight into what's really going on with the organization. Okay, let's just keep going because this is where it gets amazing. This is where, so let's just recap real quick.
    28:00
    You know, Marty's doing fine, even though people lost $2 million. He hopes he has time to watch movies,
    28:07
    you know, making jokes about this stuff. Marty was just a low-level employee who had no idea what was going on. It was his dream job. And, you know, he's going to come back and he's going to speak for himself. Kaneda's going to whack a Marty every time Marty pops up and tries to like, you know, re-enter the pinball space. And then we've got this. How Jeff feels about the community that tried to hold this company accountable. Here we go. I wasn't the one taking the money. And that being said, I think of Damien and who I've met a bunch of times. I always liked Damien. I was last saw him at TPF in 2023. I saw Fathom. I saw Kelts and it was a good booth there with Aaron from Fast and a few Aaron from Fast. Arkham Dawn says you just got thrown in. You got thrown into the mix here, buddy. I mean, the only one who made money, if you look at the list of people that lost money on Haggis, right, and there's a lot, you're not going to see Aaron fast pinball because Aaron is smart and got paid before he shipped boards Aaron Aaron made money off of this kerfuffle if you will so here's the deal so let's yo what's up bond on a Tokyo bullet train the thing is is like here's the thing Jeff I just want to ask you a question and again you guys are all free to respond and come on here you're doing a podcast with Marty, Damien's partner. When you did start to see, he said, I met Damien. Damien's a nice person. They had a nice booth with Aaron from Fastair. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Damien with the long hair. You got to go look at Damien before the long hair. And then you realize he wasn't that rock star. He wanted to be a pinball rock star. Okay. But here's the thing. Damien is a nice, jovial guy, right? So is Andrew Highway. So is Skip B. They're all nice guys at the beginning, They're all nice guys on the surface. But when people started to be lied to about when they were going to get their gains, Jeff, you knew when that was happening. It was all publicly documented on Pinside and everywhere else. When you started to realize that Damien is a businessman, right? Separate him from the nice guy with the long hair and the Aussie accent. When you started to see stories that his business practices were not ideal, did you do any shows about maybe people should be concerned because i'm reading about people giving money and not getting games you never did that you know so what what jeff and marty did with their show was they avoided they conveniently avoided all of the reality happening and when you do that and you conveniently avoid it and then jeff's gonna also give himself some immunity well i just wanted them to succeed well here's the thing it's like yeah we all want everybody to succeed we all want everything to work out in the gaza strip and in russia and ukraine and in the world and we all want you know everything to be butterflies and roses we all want things to be beautiful i do i have a beautiful family i want my children to grow up in a world where we don't have criminals and crooks and bad guys. And I want everybody to just wake up every day in a good mood. I do, I really want that for everybody. I want that for Marty, for Jeff, for Damien, everybody. I don't want people to be miserable, right? I think it makes the world a terrible place. But there's just a reality of like wanting Haggis to succeed in light of knowing that they're doing stuff that is the opposite of success, that is lying to customers, misleading, making fake production videos.
    31:57
    Once you see that, your desire to want to see them succeed can't erase the truth. Cesar said, do you lose some weight? Yeah, I had my surgery. I lost a lot of weight because I actually eat healthy. But I'm like Bruce Lee ripped right now, just so you know. Full six pack is back. It's great. I feel awesome.
    32:23
    But let's keep going because I want to get to the, we're going to get there. I know this is taking a while, but we're going to get there. Here we go. A few months later, like in June, I put down a deposit for Centaur. I'm not alone. There were others too. There were distributors that did that. So, okay. So June, what Jeff's talking about in June, I want to stop here, is when clearly Fathom bills were struggling and they marched out Centaur into the world in June of 2023. Remember when that happened? I was the loudest in telling everybody, if you put a deposit on Centaur, that's stupid. Like that's idiotic behavior. That's not good. That's not good because it was clear that they were robbing Peter to pay Paul. We've seen that behavior with Andrew Highway. It's the easiest way to know a company is failing in pinball is before they've manufactured all of the games they have to, they've announced another game that they're taking money on. It'd be different if they revealed Centaur, but no deposits. But the moment they were taking deposits and the moment they were asking people that they were letting people pay in full for Centaur. That is the moment I knew they were done. You knew they were done. And Jeff Teolas put a deposit on one. And it just goes to show you he's blinded by his friendship, blinded by his desire to see Haggis succeed. And again, you know, so again, if he's a content creator and I'm putting deposit down, what does that do? that instills confidence in other people that respect you and you have influence over. It gives them confidence. Look, Zach Mennie was in on it. Kerry Hardy, everybody, everybody. It was just Kanae in the corner being like, hey guys, maybe you should think twice about this because the dude hasn delivered any of those fathoms that people are waiting on and you really gonna go all in Remember Zach became the exclusive distributor Look I know Zach now probably wishes he would have listened to me not Marty, not Damien, not Jeff. And I would have saved Zach $70,000 if he just listened to Kaneda.
    34:50
    But he took a risk. He took a risk. They all took a risk. I don't think it was a calculated risk. I think it was an easy, don't go anywhere near it. And here's the thing. Most people didn't take the risk. Most people did listen to me. And that's why Haggis is done. He needed there to be a lot more deposits to stall the inevitable. But because people were smart and they were intelligent, they avoided getting into that fire, you know, on that sinking ship. But look at what Jeff calls people. Okay, I'm just, Jeff, I really wish you wouldn't have done this. I really wish you would have just let Marty come on your show, apologize and say, hey, all I want to hear from Marty is this. Hey, look, you know, I know everything. Look, I'm I'm going to I'm going to do everything I can, you know, to try to figure out a way to get people whole again. I also just think you just you're not you're just not going to be a personality in pinball, Marty. It's over. It's all you got to just you got to just understand that. Like, we're not going to just you can't. I'm sorry, but sometimes there are consequences to certain behaviors, and sometimes the crime, the punishment fits the crime, right? Kaneda gets drunk and throws a drink, whatever. You know, it's like, I've apologized a million times for that behavior seven years ago. Did anyone, no. Like, no one lost money. Like, other than that, like, I don't know. I've never gotten anybody fired. I've never done, like, I've never done anything that's really hurt anybody. If anyone's hurt themselves in pinball, it's just because they made bad games that people didn't wanna buy. I didn't make the games. I didn't make people not want to buy them. You know, like there's been times where even I think like, oh, maybe I'm done. Like maybe I just can't do this anymore. But if you've done what they've done and you've destroyed the money that they've destroyed and you smugly refuse to answer the tough questions over those years, you just don't get to come back as a pinball personality. Like trust is gone. Confidence is gone. And money's gone. And look, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy the hobby, but now you've got to enjoy it the way Damien's going to enjoy it, privately. I'm sure Andrew Highway and Kevin Kulik somehow still enjoy pinball privately, but you can't publicly anymore. It's just the way it goes. All right, let's keep going here. It gets good. So, you know, again, I want you to remember this when Marty comes back on Final Round. Remember, both hosts have lost money from Haggis. I just, again, it's this constant, it's this constant, we're victims to Damien. We lost money. I lost $3,500. Marty lost, like, as if, I just, no, Jeff, no, he was Damien's boy. Like, it doesn't work like that. You know, it just, oh, I know what you're doing, Jeff. It's like, and I know like it's a one way communication when you're doing your show. The problem is once you put your content out there, we're allowed to respond like this. And I think more people are going to appreciate and align with what I'm saying here than what you're saying. But let's keep going. And you know who I kind of blame? I blame myself. No one held a gun to my head. Not even Marty. No one held a gun to my head and said, you have to buy this. It was something I wanted. And I took the risk. That is the one thing that Jeff says that I agree with. Jeff, it is your fault. It is your fault for going in on the game.
    38:21
    Hold on. It's a little crooked. You should have known better. And all the data and all the info is there to keep everybody away from a Centaur deposit. But again, I get it. He's blind. I understand this. I understand human nature. Marty's your friend. You want to support Damien. I get it. You got caught up on it. And I get it. So yeah, like it is, some self-reflection there is good. I wish there was more of it on this show. I wish there was more of it on this podcast that Jeff put up. I wish there was a little bit more of, you know, like looking back on all of it, like maybe we should have done a better job. Maybe we should have done a better job of asking the tough questions. Maybe I should have done a better job when Steve Bowden comes on my show and Bowden's my friend. He's my good friend and he's involved with Deep Root and I allow Steve Bowden to sort of give confidence and I help him. I give him a platform to sell people on Deep Root and I don't ask the tough questions that maybe I should do a better job next time before I allow these people, especially with these unproven boutiques. I allow them my platform to get money. Because Jeff, you do have some responsibility in instilling confidence and influence on people. You do.
    39:42
    Jeff has a very confidence-inspiring swagger and attitude. You do. You sound very – your voice is very great for radio and air. You have a very well-spoken demeanor. And it's why people like listening to you. You know, so you have to understand like if I say these things and look I'm not I'm not immune to all this as well like when I say so I tell people all the time like, you know, if I'm hyping a game and and then you know, The company goes under like I would absolutely feel terrible and feel some responsibility I try to do my best diligence to make sure like things are gonna work You know and but I'm honest about it I mean I'm even honest about like I've been hyping Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and even I'm a little bit nervous that Dutch pinball is going to be able to turn over the line to a second game because they've never done that. And I wouldn't have revealed the game as early as they did. And I've said that to Melvin. I've said it to Barry. Like, guys, now you got to do the work. Because if you don't get games on the line in January, you know me. Like, you know, nobody flip-flops faster than Kaneda. I will be your biggest fan, your biggest, you know, cheerleader. But if I start to sense that you're starting to go down a road of misleading people or you're missing your timelines? Of course. Look, if they don't get Alice on the line in January when they said they were going to, 100%, I'm gonna wave red flags that this isn't what they said to us. Now they're misleading us because they said they're gonna have all the games built in 2025. And now the numbers don't work because if it's only 10 games a week, we know the Dutch don't work 50 weeks out of the year. And Melvin knows this. I'm like, I'm a straight shooter. I'm gonna keep that company accountable for what they said. And that's that, because I have to do that. Because otherwise I become a shill and I become a company man. All right, let's keep going here. Because I think he also gives immunity to Steve Bowden now, which is always amazing to hear this. You know me how I feel. I feel like Bowden just continues to ride underneath any accountability whatsoever with who he aligns with. I knew there might be some risk, but I just saw Kelts and I've been to the factory and I saw. First of all, Jeff, what grown adult man who loves pinball sees Kelts and feels some confidence? Like Kelts, you know me, it should have ended at Kelts. Kelts should have been the end. If Kelts, if all of y'all were like normal men and you saw Kelts and you're pinball fans and like Kelts came out after Metallica, Lord of the Rings, after like ACDC, Kelts comes out. And if all of you just like treated Kelts the way you should have treated Kelts and got nowhere near it, then none of this would have happened. Nobody would have lost money. Marty wouldn't be dragged into it. Jeff wouldn't have to do shows like this, victimizing Marty and himself. No, no, we all would have been, this is why, like, if you believe in a higher power, the higher power, like if there's like a pinball god, he didn't want you to buy Kelts. Kelts should have been the end of Haggis at the very beginning. And because all of y'all softies, you know, just wanted to support pinball companies and a crappy game, now all of you got dragged into this, you know, kerfuffle, right? This kerfuffle would have like never happened if people just avoided kelts isn't it crazy the domino effect of life all right here we go uh and played fathom and loved it and you know i wanted them to succeed so okay if this helps if this if this deposit helps uh get to the next one and then of course you know we get the message in february that they're repurposing stuff and you're like oh So I hope it works, but you know, my, whatever percentage I thought this was going to happen, obviously went down and it went to zero. And I'm sure you hear this too, Ryan. I hear, okay. So even when you hear Jeff talk about it, does it sound like he bought a game? Did it sound like he was, he didn't, he doesn't even talk like he was buying a game. It's like a charitable donation to Haggis, like a GoFundMe to help them survive. I hope this helps get to the next game.
    44:15
    That wasn't what the Centaur deposit was supposed to be, Jeff. It wasn't a, I hope this helps you get to the next game.
    44:24
    You're supposed to be getting a deposit on a game that's built. And then you pay the remainder when it's shipped to you. Like, can we stop with these like pinball companies turning, you know, every deposit into a GoFundMe, an investment in the company, not in the product? But what are we? I'm 12 years into this hobby and this behavior still exists. But it gets even better. Very, very, very, very, very few people say Marty should have known better. Let me rewind that. He just said very few people are saying Marty should have known better. This is the glory of Jep Thiel. This is revisionist history. This is the glory of the spin and the delusion these gentlemen have right now. They, well, this is a strategic effort to, and I work in communication, so I know this, to deliver a flat out, this is not true. The majority of people believe that Marty should have known better and should have been, you know, is accountable for what happened in Haggis. The majority of people, Jeff, feel that way. But for Jeff with his very, you know, deep and confidence inspiring voice, very, very, very, very few people think that Marty should have known better. Very few people. OK, OK. That's just your opinion, Jeff. But if we did a poll, if I put up a poll and I will put up a poll, I want to go back to that. It's at the four minute. Let's see. You know, my whatever percentage I thought this was going to happen obviously went down and it went to zero. And I'm sure you hear this too, Ryan. I hear very, very, very, very, very few people say Marty should have known better. Marty, you know, is partly to blame. And I just went, well, one. OK, so what I'm going to do and if we did this. if we did a poll, do you think Marty knew better and Marty is somehow accountable or responsible for what went on with Hags? I would say 90% of people would say yes.
    46:40
    And I love that, Jeff. You notice, again, words matter. I'm sure you hear this, Ryan. Like Ryan C is some sort of bellwether for honesty and truth. than like Ryan C, a guy who lives in the shadows of the pinball world. Like nobody knows what he does. He operates games. Yeah, but he didn't operate games to make his money to buy pinball. Nobody knows. Like nobody knows what Ryan C does. Like he's this shadow figure. Like I wanna get Jessie J back out here to ask her about Ryan C. Like where did all that go wrong? Like it's just, he's just ever present, you know? I can't, I can't. Anyway, but it's not about Ryan C because he didn't take any of our money. Like, Ryan, you're safe here. This is not Whack-a-Ryan. This is Whack-a-Marty. So here we go. Let's keep going. He didn't own the company. He didn't have shares. Wasn't that kind of decision maker. And that would be like blaming, and it's been said before on other podcasts because we all agree, that'd be like blaming Stephen Bowden for the failure of Deep Root. Well, he was marketing. He was doing code. Well, that was his job. you're supposed to promote Deep Root.
    47:53
    Okay, let me just collect myself again because now we have another, Steve Bowden's a victim to Deep Root and he's a victim to Robert Mueller. Okay, okay. So when Steve Bowden gets up there with the most trustworthy individuals in pinball, John Papaduke Jr., remember the seminar, Robert Mueller? Robert Mueller was the panel leader again revisionist history painting all these people as blanket victims as if they didn't do stuff that they should be accountable for Robert Mueller did a seminar I've got it uploaded where he was the panel leader of his own company's discussion in which it was Steve Bowden, it was John Norris, it was John Papadu Jr., it was Barry Osler, and it was Dennis Nordman, right? They're up there, right? They're up there, and it was Quinn, I think Quinn. I don't know if John Norris was up there, but it was Quinn was up there too.
    48:58
    And they were saying they were gonna make more games than any pinball company in history. They were gonna make more games in one year than Stern Pinball. They were gonna completely revolutionize pinball. And Steve Bowden was like one of the most, like just wait until you see what we're doing, like and just like really, really proud. Like, okay, like here's the thing. If you're gonna start a pinball company and you've never worked for a pinball company, how do you know what a pinball company success looks like? If you're Steve Bowden and you're in charge of marketing, Like just Steve Bowden in charge of marketing for Deep Root just is a bad comedy on every level. But I remember when Steve Bowden went on Jeff Teoldis' show and got everybody confident about making deposits for Raza. And he was using terminology like, just wait. Just wait till you see what we got. Right. And I know for a truth that Steve Bowden knew that things were not going well at Deep Root. You know, Cointaker just joined. My friends Chris and Melissa here are watching at 530 in the morning as they get a cup of Joe and they let the dogs out. Melissa knows all too well what it's like to lose over $100,000 by John Papaduke. The trust these companies, you know, instilled in the beginning and the people they burned are like hardworking people. You know, because it doesn't take any hard work to make a podcast. It takes hard work to give thousands of dollars to these companies. You know, and then Steve Bowden went on there and like and Jeff was like really rooting for Deep Root, really rooting for Robert Mueller. And I'm telling you, when that was all going down, what was I doing is I was releasing clips of Robert Mueller and who he really was and how he was like full of hot air. And it was all the joke. Everyone knew it was a joke. And again, like nobody ordered Raza. Like a few people got burned. The smart people got their money back. But again, like Steve Bowden's now a victim. And it's just, again, it's like, well, maybe these are grown men. You know who are victim in life? Children, children. Children are victims if they go into school and their teachers are terrible and they're putting terrible ideas in their heads and they're not being treated with maturity and the right direction. Like, I feel bad for children because children don't yet have the faculties necessary to understand the environments they're in. God bless all the children. I mean that they're so innocent. I look at my children children walk into a company and they don know They can see like things are wrong but adults when you an adult and you walk into a pinball company that talking all this smack we're gonna make more games than Stern in a year. And you're Steve Bowden and you go into Deep Root for two years and not a single game has gone out the door. At what point are you no longer a child, but you're an adult? And you should be able to see that something's not right here. Like what, something's off. Like this is taking too long. Like where's all this money coming from? And then as an adult, you can start to do a little research. You could start to go on the community and hey, look, people are saying that Robert Mueller has taken his money from insurance. Like he's taking money from old ladies who are buying into this insurance scam kind of Ponzi scheme. Like it was all there. It was all there. So like you're not a victim anymore because once you start to take a paycheck from somebody, and it's a small enough company and you know what the product is your company's supposed to be making, yeah, you should start to sort of ask some questions. The problem with all these companies and all the criminals out there in the business world is they make you sign NDAs and then you're afraid. So you're afraid to speak up. Okay, but you can still quit. You can still quit. You can also decide not to promote it. Like there's a difference, right? There are options available to those people who actually understand. Okay, let's keep going. Marty's supposed to promote Haggis. They're doing the codes for the games. Anyway, it's a shame that it happened, but there's some fucking keyboard warriors out there. Okay, this is where he insults us. We are effing keyboard warriors. This part is where Jeff should just take the show down. And I mean, now it's going to be a little too late because I just can't believe he talks about all of us like this.
    53:43
    Marty's supposed to promote Haggard. You know, Jeff, it's like you victimize, you spend four minutes victimizing Marty and yourself and Steve Bowden. And then now you're going to insult the real victims. The real victims, which the community are the victims here. Not you guys, the community. Now you're going to insult them. I mean, it's a really weird approach. I don't know why he did this. They're doing the codes for the games. Anyway, it's a shame that it happened, but there's some fucking keyboard warriors out there on Pinside that just probably had nothing invested in it but just want to take the shots.
    54:22
    Okay, I want to stop there because, Jeff, you don't have to have had money invested in Haggis to ask questions and question the company. Jeff, the way it works in the world is that journalists don't need to invest in the company they're investigating. Let me repeat that. A good, smart, critical thinking individual does not need to invest in a company to ask and investigate what's going on in that company. We wouldn't have any journalism, right? If a journalist is trying to, I don't know, expose FIFA for corruption, you can't be like, well, you didn't have any season tickets in soccer or football, so you're not allowed. You're not allowed because you have no money on the line. I mean, I hate that. And to call Pinside, if there's one thing you don't wanna do, if there's one thing you don't wanna do, it's you don't wanna just blanket call the community F-heads and insult them like this. because Jeff, we were the only ones that were seeking out the truth while you were just trying to help this company survive. Let's keep going. And after knowing all this, all I can say is if you still think Marty had anything to do with this, you're probably not a very intelligent person and maybe even a fuckhead.
    55:49
    So if you think that Marty had something to do with this, you're not intelligent and you're an F-head. Okay, so that, okay, like I'm just trying to put on my, Chris, work for the world's, you know, third largest communication company in the world. These guys, Marty's in an issue and crisis mode that imagine if I'm like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna call the people that you burned unintelligent and F-heads. Do you see the level of arrogance and the level of smugness and the level of like, this this is like these guys have like like a god complex to talk to the community like this i would never i mean i would know better than to talk to people like this this is like this is inane it's unheard of it's it's sad to me because it shows me how they think about us um and it's like really it's really nuts and and so like to jeff for jeff teal is to say that we're unintelligent because we think Marty was involved with a company that he was a partner in and Damien's right hand to say that we're unintelligent and F heads. Jeff, you put a deposit down on Centaur when you knew fathoms were not being built. Who made the unintelligent move? Who's this? This to me is a level of unintelligence. I don't think I've seen any. I don't think I've seen another content creator make something like this like let's listen again that just probably had nothing invested in it but just want to take the shots and even after knowing all this all i can say is if you still think marty had anything to do with this you you're probably not a very intelligent person and maybe even a fuckhead that's my thought your thought uh ryan um i remember when it happened it was i think i just had a lot of sadness um when they filed those documents i was up in Queensland playing pinball and I ended up maybe five minutes after the documents got published played a game of you know a match play game of pinball with someone who lost approximately twenty thousand dollars and he was in a state of shock not a state of shock like you know on the floor but just in in disbelief about what had happened and disbelief like what did he think was going to happen? Oh man. So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, I'm not going to keep playing. I mean, that's five minutes into another, there's another hour and 19 minutes. I couldn't make it past the first five minutes. Um, you know, it's cause you see the pattern here, you see the pattern and I just, I just really feel that sometimes you lose things in life, right? Sometimes you are part of things that don't work out. And because of that, the consequences of, of being a part of those things sometimes eliminates your ability to do something you want to do, right? Children don't want to be told no. And again, I use this analogy because I'm a dad of young children. Marty doesn't want to be told he can't, like he could do the podcast, like no one can stop you. He can do it, but you're, but no one's going to listen anymore. You know, no one's going to take you seriously anymore until the haggis people are made whole. As much as you want to paint yourself as a employee of a company that made decisions you were unaware of, we don't buy it. We don't buy it. We know you were there. We know you had to have known all the struggles that were going on. And Marty, if you had been more honest and candid with us through that journey, I think it would be a different story. I think we'd be having a different discussion right now. And if Jeff Teolis wasn't insulting us like this, I think, I think you coming back might have a different, you know, a different outcome. But this to me is the final, like the final round, like the irony in all of this is this is the final round of gentlemen who are arrogant and smug and just like, they don't even know how to be empathetic or sincere. Like they don't, like they literally, it's just insult, insult, insult, calling people unintelligent. And, you know, this isn't what people want in pinball content. Like they want us to talk about the games. They want to talk about Metallica, about Avatar, about, you know, Alice, about whatever, King Kong.
    60:37
    But, you know, these failures, they leave a long sort of path of destruction. And, you know, for those people that lost, who speaks on their behalf? and that is what I'm trying to do here is speak on the behalf of the community that lost money because nobody's representing them as you victimize Marty like this. They're not. And I just, I get a sense of Marty's character from the way he's been acting over the last like year over this whole thing. And I don't find it funny. I don't want him to be watching movies. I don't want to hear his excuses. I want people to get their money back. And I want to know where that money went. And if Damien is sitting on a bunch of personal assets that could pay people back, you know, that's your pathway back. And you probably are too, Marty. Why don't you sell your pinball collection and get people some of their money back? Because you gave people the confidence to give deposits on your company that you were heavily a part of. You are not some just employee to the side. And as much as Jeff wants to paint it as that, everyone knows that that's not the case. It's not a small number of people, Jeff. It's the majority of people feel that way.
    62:01
    And I haven't talked about Haggis in a long time. I haven't. But something about this show, Jeff, I really just, it just really, it just, Jeff never should have put this up. You know, it would have been smarter to just lay low for like another six months. But again, it just goes to show you is that Marty doesn't care. He just wants back in. He just wants back in. He thinks enough time has passed. He thinks the wounds have been healed. Because what he wants to do is he wants to join the people on the protest line. We're protesting his company. And what he wants to do is he wants to take the elevator down and join the protest line and be on the picket line as a victim, you know, oh, you horrible haggis Damien, it was all your fault. That's what he wants to do. He wants to leave the boardroom and be part of the community now that's protesting. And you don't get to do that. Like, you get beat up down there in the protest line, you know, and I don't mean physically, but you're going to get like verbally beat up. And I'm putting this back up there because I know someone even, you know it got deleted by mistake my video yesterday i was deleting some metallica post and i accidentally deleted this i know jason knapp was like oh i want to hear it i know pin side people want to hear it so can you guys do me a favor um and post this facebook link into the thread on pin side just so they can know like it's back up um i think this one's much better than i even did yesterday um and and that's it and for those of you who are looking for a Metallica LE. I'm going to give someone a chance to get one at MSRP. I heard the feedback. I was trying to see how large the market was on the game and it angered everybody. It's cool. Market research off. This is what I normally do. If you look at Canada's history, I normally allow people a chance to get a hot LE at MSRP. I'm going to do it again with Metallica. The interest in this is overwhelming. If you like what you hear here, again, I'm just doing this on Facebook now because it's something everybody should hear. This is not behind the paywall. If you're new to pinball and you're looking for a pinball content creator, you'll hear the rumors about Kaneda, but there's a reason why one favorite pinball podcaster, six years in a row, a show like this, no notes, no edits, no editing at all. What you see is what you get.
    64:34
    And, you know, again, I just don't think you're going to hear this anywhere else. I think sometimes people avoid these kinds of content and conflict. You know, I sort of run headfirst into it at times because I think we need people that just hold some of these people accountable. and again I think the solution here was for Jeff not to do this show I think it was way too strident I think it was way too smug what do you guys think I'm just curious we have about I think I can put a poll up here right now let me see if I can do that yeah let's do it right now I'll see if I can all right do you let's see what happens do you think oh hold on do you think Marty is response oh Oh, it keeps, keeps.
    65:42
    I'll just do blame Marty. Oh, it keeps popping. Hold on. I'm going to get this, folks. Hold on. Let me, let me just, it just keeps, for some reason, it keeps.
    66:03
    Facebook, you're terrible. it keeps on not letting me finish right the question. You got to be kidding me.
    66:24
    Oh my God. Hold on. I'm going to get this. All right. It won't let me spell the full name. Let's just do Blame M. Blame Marty. M is for Marty. Should Marty have some blame for what went down with Haggis? Is the poll up? I can't even see.
    66:54
    I don't know. Let's see if it's up. Do you guys see a poll? I can't even tell. All right. oh i'm gonna go to the gym as i said i'm like i'm getting like von dom like double impact drift i know you guys don't want to see it but like you see like when you when you eat healthy come on guys don't like it's like people like you lost weight i'm like yeah i lost weight i had surgery i've been eating healthy for for three weeks no sugar no coffee no alcohol no crappy stuff going into my system. And for someone who's like my age, I feel better than I did when I was 26. I feel better than I did when I was 16. Well, let's see. This poll was stupid. No, it's all right.
    67:57
    Four votes. All right. Look. Blame me someone who's not malice. Oh, here we do. All right. Everybody, be good. make up your own minds on this thing but yeah like I think we just move on and moving on to me just means like I just don't think we should hear from him um he'll do his show he's not gonna care they don't they don't listen to this like I know that many of you do um and I just think it's a time for, it's just like, I don't know, sometimes you just get wrapped up in things and when it doesn't work out, it's over. Like some of the things have to go away. They just have to go away. All right everybody, gym is open at 5.30. I'm gonna hit it right now. I'm gonna drive right to the gym, biceps, shoulders and triceps. So by the time I come back, I'll be back before my kids wake up. I love this, I love this hour. All right, later.