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Dirty Pool Podcast - Ep29 - Chris Kooluris - Kaneda's Pinball Podcast - Say What You Mean

Dirtypool Pinball·video·1h 8m·analyzed·Apr 14, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Canada reflects on 13 years of unfiltered pinball criticism, pricing accountability, and how boutiques outcompete Stern creatively.

Summary

Chris Koularis (alias "Canada"), host of Kaneda's A Pinball Podcast, discusses his 13-year content creation journey, his philosophy on critical coverage of pinball manufacturers, and the economic pressures facing the industry. He argues for accountability in pricing and creativity, critiques Stern's business model while acknowledging boutique manufacturers' competitive advantages, and explains how he receives game leaks and themes from industry insiders.

Key Claims

  • Chris Koularis was banned from Pinside forum, which motivated him to create his podcast as an alternative voice

    high confidence · Canada directly stated: 'they they banned me from pinside. So, that really was just the origin of it was getting banned from the number one forum.'

  • Canada's podcast has been running for 13 years with optimal format of 20-minute episodes, 2-3 per week

    high confidence · Canada: 'right now I'm at the happiest I I've been over the entire 13 years where every show is about 20 minutes' and 'I do do three two to three shows a week.'

  • Boutique pinball companies are producing more creative games than Stern, which operates in silos

    high confidence · Canada stated: 'I think the best creativity happening in pinball right now is happening at the boutique level' and 'Stern...is still building games siloed with teams where they're not cross collaborating.'

  • Stern controls approximately 75-80% of the pinball market

    medium confidence · Canada estimated: 'Stern, who obviously has probably still like 75 to 80% of the market'

  • Pokemon pinball is one of the least innovative Stern games despite high price tag

    high confidence · Canada: 'Pokemon who and we we'll talk about this which maybe one of the least innovative games I've ever seen Stern release yet is one of the most fun games to shoot because of its simplicity yet carries a price tag that is insane'

  • Winchester Mystery House's surprise reveal contributed significantly to its commercial success

    high confidence · Canada: 'if I had leaked that Winchester Mystery House was the title from Barrels of Fun a year before it came out, people would have like railed on it...You know, sure. The surprise played well into the success of the game for sure.'

  • Stern's pricing model prevents them from lowering prices due to backlash from past buyers

    medium confidence · Canada: 'They can't and they can't they'll never lower prices again because then they'll have just a mutiny of everybody who bought at those higher prices all those years'

Notable Quotes

  • “I simply expect for this much money and it's always been an expensive hobby. There to be real creativity and magic in these games and I don't love every game”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 7:31 — Core philosophy: Canada's criticism stems from expecting value proportional to price, not from disliking pinball itself

  • “Games would never get better if we were always positive and and positively reinforced every single pinball machine that came out”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 8:13 — Justification for critical stance: constructive criticism drives innovation

  • “The best creativity happening in pinball right now is happening at the boutique level”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 8:47 — Key market observation: smaller manufacturers are outpacing Stern creatively

  • “I had Guns and Roses in my phone for like a year before Eric revealed it. And I purposely never leaked that because I did feel that he should be the one who shows the world what he's been working on”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 26:48 — Shows Canada has standards about leaking: protects designer reveals but shares themes freely

  • “Imagine having 80% of the market. Imagine seeing everyone start a post that's like after Winchester came out people are like Stern's screwed”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 22:24 — Acknowledges Stern's market dominance makes them largely indifferent to boutique competition

  • “I don't think these companies are going out of business. I think they put more into the future products...that's why I think people should keep their money in their wallet when they see something that might not be worth it”

Entities

Chris KoularispersonStern PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyBarrels of FuncompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyGeorge GomezpersonEric MeunierpersonFranchieperson

Signals

  • ?

    content_signal: Chris Koularis has built a 13-year pinball content platform with 20-minute episodes, 2-3 per week, optimized for entertainment and rapid delivery of news over traditional long-form formats

    high · Canada: 'right now I'm at the happiest I I've been over the entire 13 years where every show is about 20 minutes' and operates '2 to 3 shows a week'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Boutique pinball manufacturers are capturing significant creative and community perception advantage over Stern through collaborative team structures and willingness to take creative risks on lesser-known IPs

    high · Canada: 'boutique is really as a creator where you'd want to be because you can have the whole company focused and collaborating' vs Stern 'siloed with teams where they're not cross collaborating'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern unable to lower prices despite inflation concerns due to customer backlash from past premium-tier buyers; pricing has become stuck at $10-15k range across all titles regardless of innovation content

    high · Canada: 'They can't...they'll never lower prices again because then they'll have just a mutiny of everybody who bought at those higher prices'

  • $

    market_signal: Limited edition games experiencing extreme secondary market markups ($30-50k for Pokemon LE vs $7.5k MSRP historically), indicating speculative buying and FOMO-driven scalping that may be unsustainable

    high · Canada: 'Pokemon at 30 to $50,000' vs 'Ghostbusters LE...was $7,500...you were happy if you got $9,500' and 'Pirates of the Caribbean CE...people were spending $40,000'

  • ?

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

0:07
What's going on everybody? Welcome to another bright, sunny episode of the Dirty Pool podcast. Uh, it actually rained a whole [ __ ] ton yesterday out of nowhere in Los Angeles, which is really crazy. Uh, speaking of my man wearing the LA hat. You know him. Uh, you love him, maybe you don't, but he makes amazing pinball content that is raw and unfiltered. And today we're going to talk about that. It's Chris Kurus. Am I saying that right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got it.
0:32
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got it.
0:32
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. >> Hell yeah. What's up, man?
0:34
Hell yeah. What's up, man?
0:34
Hell yeah. What's up, man? >> Or Canada.
0:36

  • Game scalping on secondary market indicates a healthy hobby and good game design

    medium confidence · Canada: 'I'd rather be in a pinball world in which people can scalp games for a good secondhand value because that means the games are good and the and the hobby is healthy because ain't nobody scalping bad games that nobody wants.'

  • Spooky Pinball has improved significantly by absorbing feedback and hiring artist Franchie

    high confidence · Canada praised Spooky's evolution: 'They took all the feedback...They absorbed an artist that Stern...got rid of...They love his artwork...they improved.'

  • George Gomez claims he produces more games in two days than boutique competitors make annually

    medium confidence · Canada referenced Gomez's statement: 'George Gomez is like I make more games between Monday and Wednesday these guys will make all year.'

    • Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 21:10 — Consumer activism philosophy: buyers have power through restraint

  • “Cuz when you leak some information, you're a you're spoiling a company's ability to have their moment”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 25:39 — Acknowledges tension between information sharing and marketing strategy

  • “People send it to me because they don't want to be the bad guy and they know I'll be the bad guy”

    Chris Koularis (Canada)@ 25:32 — Explains leak sourcing: insiders use him as a filter to release information without personal consequences

    • Brian Eddy
    person
    Winchester Mystery Housegame
    Pokemongame
    Star Warsgame
    John Wickgame
    Beetlejuicegame
    Dunegame
    Elton Johngame
    Guns and Rosesgame
    Deadpoolgame
    Back to the Futuregame
    Pinsideorganization

    product_strategy: Boutique manufacturers employing intentional limited production runs and surprise theme reveals to create scarcity and manage FOMO; Winchester Mystery House success attributed partly to surprise announcement strategy

    medium · Canada: 'Winchester...The surprise played well into the success of the game for sure...gone in two days' and 'only 525 units'

  • ?

    leak_detection: Canada receives unconfirmed but widely-discussed pinball game themes via industry insiders (Sonic, Back to the Future, Fallout, Transformers) that are not yet officially confirmed; insiders use him as proxy to leak without personal consequences

    medium · Canada: 'we're all talking about Sonic the Hedgehog. It's not confirmed. It is Sonic the Hedgehog' and 'people send it to me because they don't want to be the bad guy and they know I'll be the bad guy'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment toward Limited Edition status deteriorating; Canada notes LE designation no longer carries value premium due to market saturation and buyers preferring to customize Pro versions themselves

    medium · Canada: 'I don't think anyone cares anymore about Ellies...It used to mean something...I'd rather do the work myself. It's just not...worth the value to me'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Boutique manufacturers securing major IP licenses (Beetlejuice, Back to the Future, Dune, Elton John) that Stern might have expected due to IP holders' unfamiliarity with pinball market and willingness to work with non-traditional partners

    medium · Canada: 'They don't know...if they didn't give it to Stern that they're missing out on having a 4,000 unit run or a 6,000 unit run versus 500...they're just like Oh it's going to be a pinball machine whatever'

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern pricing all games uniformly at $10-15k regardless of creative content; Pokemon cited as example of minimal innovation at premium price, while original themes (Dracula) priced same as licensed blockbusters

    high · Canada: 'Pokemon...one of the least innovative games I've ever seen Stern release...carries a price tag that is insane for how much is actually creatively and innovatively in the game'

  • ?

    community_signal: Canada's critical stance toward pinball manufacturers creates interpersonal friction in community, but he argues this drives product improvement; notes people often form rigid opinions then hold them regardless of content changes

    medium · Canada: 'I think people have forged an opinion maybe many many years ago or eons ago and they've just held on to it...people that hate me the most on pin side...we actually think almost identically about the hobby'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Boutique manufacturers operate as indie studios willing to take creative risks on unconventional themes/mechanics; comparable to indie film model; Stern constrained by scale economics that require safer design decisions

    medium · Canada: 'smaller pinball companies are more like indie film companies...they make the weird films...boutiques are locking in some pretty big banger themes' while Stern's 'manufacturing needs to operate' prevents comparable experimentation

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Canada's ban from Pinside forum (largest pinball community) directly catalyzed creation of his independent podcast; moderation policies may have inadvertently enabled alternative media platform to flourish

    high · Canada: 'they they banned me from pinside. So, that really was just the origin of it...I didn't want to be silenced because I couldn't go on the forum'

    • Or Canada.
    0:36
    Or Canada. >> Or Canada from Canada's Pinball Podcast.
    0:38
    Or Canada from Canada's Pinball Podcast.
    0:38
    Or Canada from Canada's Pinball Podcast. I assumed everybody that's watching that knows that. >> I know. I don't know. And you know, it
    0:42
    I know. I don't know. And you know, it
    0:42
    I know. I don't know. And you know, it is sunny here in Connecticut, so I'm excited to represent LA in Connecticut, working out of New York City. Very confusing. Hard to know what what's going on here. But how's it going? It's glad to be a member of the show, >> dude. I you do not take a lot of
    0:56
    dude. I you do not take a lot of
    0:56
    dude. I you do not take a lot of interviews and for you to like agree to be on the podcast is like it's pretty it's riveting, man. Like it it it shook me. >> Yeah. I got to be careful. I got to be
    1:05
    Yeah. I got to be careful. I got to be
    1:05
    Yeah. I got to be careful. I got to be careful. I've got a I got a reputation to uphold. Now, I'll I'll do mostly any interview because most people don't ask. They really want to like fight with me about something. Well, I'm not here to fight. I'm here to talk about the history of your channel, the 10 years or more that you have put into building a platform of talking about pinball, how you talk about pinball, the friction that that may create with companies and you as an individual, where you want to take the channel, all sorts of things. And we talked a little bit about how pinball machines are sold. So, I think today is going to be a pretty fascinating conversation. So, [ __ ] it. Let's dive in. So, first first and foremost, like other than Canada obviously being a huge Akira thing, like what was the origin of you picking the name to represent the podcast, was that the first iteration of it? Did it have, you know, was it did you call it something else and then you were like, "Fuck it." Like, I'm going to go back. No, it, you know, Canada's always been my sort of alter ego avatar name on any message board I've ever been on since maybe the mid9s. Uh, and the reason I love Akira so much when I was a kid, obviously the movie when it came out was just like mindblowing. I've never seen anything like it. Uh, and then when I was in school, some of my best friends were boarding school students from Japan, and they were the nicest kids to me. And so I just always have loved Japanese culture, as you can tell. Um, and so yeah, I' I've been Canada on the Guns and Roses forums, on the Dodge Demon forums, on the pinball forums, and so everywhere I go, if I'm going to be an avatar, that's the name. Cool. So, you made this you made the podcast. When you created it, was the intention to be like a destabilizing or counter accountability voice for the pinball community, or did you just want to talk about pinball and and over the 10 years it just went on this like wild ride? >> Yeah. Well, I they they banned me from
    2:57
    Yeah. Well, I they they banned me from
    2:57
    Yeah. Well, I they they banned me from pinside. So, that really was just the origin of it was getting banned from the number one forum. And you can tell I'm someone who likes to speak and and have a little bit of the gift of gabs. So, I I didn't want to be silenced because I couldn't go on the forum. And at that time, there was maybe like three to four pinball podcasts that were out there in the world. Uh, it was Nate Shivers had a show, John's Arcade, uh, I believe Spooky had a podcast then, but there was only like four places you could consistently go to every week uh, to to listen and hear people talk about pinball. So, >> it was just natural, having been on the
    3:34
    it was just natural, having been on the
    3:34
    it was just natural, having been on the forum for so many months, if not a few years, to just get a mic and and start talking. And the first episodes were terrible, though. I mean, if you go back and listen to episode one, I I couldn't even make it through the end of that. I mean, to be fair, anybody doing something for the first time, it's going to be the rough version. Like, you don't really discover and filter yourself into what you are until much later on. When did you see yourself and feel that you were like, "Oh, this is this is what I want to be doing with this podcast." >> Sure. Uh, when I Well, it's it's, you
    4:03
    Sure. Uh, when I Well, it's it's, you
    4:03
    Sure. Uh, when I Well, it's it's, you know, when I first started, I did kind of more emulate the other shows that I was listening to all the time. If you listen to my first shows, I talked a lot slower. Uh, I was more like emulating Nate Shivers on Coast to Coast Pinball. Uh, just because I I I always had him in my head as a way to think about pinball. And then over time, I just sort of became more and more uh used to the stuff that I got excited by when it came to the show. And so, just more entertaining, less editing, no show notes, uh, don't really do many interviews. And then right now I'm at the happiest I I've been over the entire 13 years where every show is about 20 minutes. I I just feel like >> that's the sweet spot.
    4:48
    that's the sweet spot.
    4:48
    that's the sweet spot. >> Yeah. It's like an it's like an episode
    4:50
    Yeah. It's like an it's like an episode
    4:50
    Yeah. It's like an it's like an episode of The Office. Like if you can't get entertained and hear all the pinball news in 20 minutes and I do do three two to three shows a week. >> Sure.
    4:57
    Sure.
    4:57
    Sure. >> But you you know a lot of the shows go
    4:59
    But you you know a lot of the shows go
    4:59
    But you you know a lot of the shows go on for a much longer time and that's also because they they have a co-host and they're going back and forth on the topics. But mine's just just sort of like right at you. here's what's happening in pinball. Here's what's happening in the community. Here's my thoughts on it. And then you you're you're back. I want to put you back into the real world within 25 minutes, right? And to me, that's that's the sweet spot. >> So, was Canada as a as a personality
    5:23
    So, was Canada as a as a personality
    5:23
    So, was Canada as a as a personality part because I know that currently when you talk about your content, right, and you're doing your shows, like you are the star with it along with the pinball information, right? Were the early episodes just like that or did did you separate yourself from the pinball news? >> Oh, no. I think I was always in it and
    5:40
    Oh, no. I think I was always in it and
    5:40
    Oh, no. I think I was always in it and it was even more a little bit more strident in back in the day. I used to curse on my podcast and and one day a gentleman came up to me and said, "Hey, my my kid listens with me and could you not curse on your show?" And I haven't cursed since. And that was maybe like 10 years ago. I used to do these Pinside Babies episodes where I would rant about people complaining about silly things on Pinside. Um, but you know, for the most part, um, I I don't think you can kind of create a fake second alter ego character and do 1,200 episodes like that. I think eventually the real you is going to come through. And and I think that's why um when you hear the show now, there's no Canada and Chris being two different people that process life differently. It's it's just the the more entertaining way to say my name, if you will. >> Sure. It's the the louder version of the
    6:38
    Sure. It's the the louder version of the
    6:38
    Sure. It's the the louder version of the still person that is you. What's something that people get wrong about you? You think that they just see the show and they see this person, but that's like >> they think I play pinball, but I don't.
    6:52
    they think I play pinball, but I don't.
    6:52
    they think I play pinball, but I don't. I think what they I think what people get wrong is just a lot of people have forged an opinion maybe many many years ago or eons ago and they've just held on to it and it's interesting because I think the people that hate me the most on pin side I'm not going to name names we actually think almost identically about the hobby just so sometimes it's just like you know I think people have this misconception that I'm I'm in this to sort of be disruptive and to like I don't like pinball. I don't love the the hobby. That's anything but the truth. I I simply expect for this much money and it's always been an expensive hobby. There to be real creativity and magic in these games and I don't love every game and I think that's always been a little bit of the the >> You also don't need to love every game,
    7:41
    You also don't need to love every game,
    7:41
    You also don't need to love every game, right? And I feel like it's a pinball. It's a weird pinball curse that every game that comes out you feel like you need to own. You feel like you got to like have an opinion on it. And it's just like like I don't watch every movie that comes out. >> No. Or listen to every song or
    7:57
    No. Or listen to every song or
    7:57
    No. Or listen to every song or >> drive every car. No. But but with
    7:59
    drive every car. No. But but with
    7:59
    drive every car. No. But but with pinball there was there's always this pressure to to grow the hobby. We have to be positive and spread the positivity around pinball. >> Yeah.
    8:08
    Yeah.
    8:08
    Yeah. >> Which is fine, but games would never get
    8:10
    Which is fine, but games would never get
    8:10
    Which is fine, but games would never get better if we were always positive and and positively reinforced every single pinball machine that came out. Now, what's great about pinball today is I think more so now than ever, the games are predominantly much better now consistently than they've been in a long time. Only issue is they're so much more expensive than they've been over the the last, you know, 12 to 15 years I've been covering this hobby. So, >> do you think a lot of the newer, smaller
    8:37
    do you think a lot of the newer, smaller
    8:37
    do you think a lot of the newer, smaller companies have a lot to do with some of the competition of making games more creative across all plat like all the manufacturers? I think the best creativity happening in pinball right now is happening at the boutique level. And and I've been saying it for a few years. I think boutique is really as a creator where you'd want to be because you can have the whole company focused and collaborating to make the game as great as possible. I still think >> Stern, who obviously has probably still
    9:07
    Stern, who obviously has probably still
    9:07
    Stern, who obviously has probably still like 75 to 80% of the market, is still building games siloed with teams where they're not cross collaborating to make like it's not like Elwin's walking over to Pokemon and being like, you know what, like maybe we do this. It's >> it does seem like they're in little
    9:24
    it does seem like they're in little
    9:24
    it does seem like they're in little bubbles of development for each team. >> Yeah.
    9:27
    Yeah.
    9:27
    Yeah. >> So, let me let me ask you something
    9:28
    So, let me let me ask you something
    9:28
    So, let me let me ask you something then. Do you think that like I would say it's a fair statement that the people that are working on pinball machines, myself seeing behind the curtain like really do care about the machine and the product that they're making, right? It's more the the marketing team, the people that are trying to make sure that the per game units are making money, the cost of goods, the COG is not, you know, hitting a certain margin, right? So, how does a how does the you know, the morale of the team translate to the actual product and how do your comments come into play with that? real quick before you go firing away. You know, you talked about accountability for how much you're paying for the company. So really your criticism for a lot of this stuff is towards the marketing and money management side of the development instead of the creative side. Would you would you say that's true or um No, I mean I think I'm harsh on both fronts at times of for this much money should there be or should we expect this much creativity or innovation like in the product itself? what makes pinballs so difficult and I as someone who just bought Pokemon who and we we'll talk about this which maybe one of the least innovative games I've ever seen Stern release yet is one of the most fun games to shoot because of its simplicity yet carries a price tag that is insane for how much is actually creatively and innovatively in the game. And so that this this is the like the rub that everybody has to deal with. So then ultimately you put all those things in your mental blender and you have to say is it worth it to me? And that is the same relationship everybody has whenever they see any new game. Do I think that this is worth it to me? Will this bring me enough happiness and joy for this much money? Um, smart man over the last four years just waits a little bit because everything eventually, and we're seeing Pokemon do it now, everything heads south because the beginning price is so high. >> That FOMO once it runs out, you're left
    11:30
    That FOMO once it runs out, you're left
    11:30
    That FOMO once it runs out, you're left with a depreciating product and it's tough to I mean, if you're buying pinball machines hoping that they just gain in value to use them as stocks, like this is not the market for that. I mean, that's it's your money. I think you should be able to do whatever you want with it, but it sucks that there's people that genuinely want a game and are outclassed or outpriced from it because other people have purchased too many of them and I' start to manipulate the environment. It's like video cards with gaming. It's just h how does how does a manufacturer handle that? >> Yeah. Well, look, if they really wanted
    12:00
    Yeah. Well, look, if they really wanted
    12:00
    Yeah. Well, look, if they really wanted to end scalping, see, I don't think Chevrolet could end people adding an additional price to the hot new ZR1. I don't think Rolex could really end it on on when they make two million watches a year. But when you're only making, you know, 500 units, that's right, >> of the in demand version of the product,
    12:20
    of the in demand version of the product,
    12:20
    of the in demand version of the product, they simply could sell all the hard to get ones direct, non-transferable. That would at least stop the the scalping that happens before someone even takes possession of the game who just has a spot for the game, right? So, if if you know that I need to mail you the Winchester and you have to like actually sign for it, you could still scalp it and then mail it to someone new, but at least you you have to go through a little bit more of a laborious journey to get that money. Um, but I would also say that I'd rather be in a pinball world in which people can scalp games for a good secondhand value because that means the games are good and the and the hobby is healthy because ain't nobody scalping bad games that nobody wants. There's a reason why. And >> and you can always wait to get a game at
    13:14
    and you can always wait to get a game at
    13:14
    and you can always wait to get a game at a better price. It's just a matter of time. It is like people who think Winchester is always going to be 18 and Evil Dead's always going to be it's for now. But even that's a good sign because people seeing Winchester at 18 or Evil Dead at 18, it's good because it's going to inspire the next creative idea that isn't just the same formula, right, of just Marvel and dadrock. I mean, look at Winchester. Like if you if I had leaked that Winchester Mystery House was the title from Barrels of Fun a year before it came out, >> people would have like railed on it,
    13:53
    people would have like railed on it,
    13:53
    people would have like railed on it, been like, "What are they doing?" You know, >> sure. The surprise played well into the
    13:56
    sure. The surprise played well into the
    13:56
    sure. The surprise played well into the success of the game for sure. >> It was amazing. It's like here we have
    14:00
    It was amazing. It's like here we have
    14:00
    It was amazing. It's like here we have Star Wars, one of the biggest IPs comes out from Stern, lackluster, kind of bores people. in walks David with, you know, this game with only 525 units and you could tell the amount of passion that went into it and and then all of a sudden gone in two days. Now, you know, Stern's still going to sell 10 times more Star Wars, but that doesn't matter. >> It doesn't matter. Like, you know,
    14:22
    It doesn't matter. Like, you know,
    14:22
    It doesn't matter. Like, you know, creativity and passion, we're not it doesn't matter about the volume of it. We want to just see it. >> It's also okay that it that a game that
    14:29
    It's also okay that it that a game that
    14:29
    It's also okay that it that a game that has less in it and sells. But what you said about value, right? So, how do you quantify what should Stern sell a game that has arguably less things in it like Pokemon, like Star Wars, where the target audience is more of like a arcade setting, right? Like those games are absolutely meant for operators to a certain degree except for people that really love Pokemon, but it's just it less it's less of a creative layout. >> Yeah. Yeah. The hard the hard part with
    14:55
    Yeah. Yeah. The hard the hard part with
    14:55
    Yeah. Yeah. The hard the hard part with pricing, and again, I'm not internal over at Stern. We always speculate how much it cost them to make each game, what's the bomb, what's the, you know, the margins for them. But it is crazy though when you think that Pokemon with all that IP is the same exact price as like John Wick, which is going to be the same price. This is going to be the big challenge. If Brian Eddie is working on a Dracula game that's open IP, you're going to price that at 13,000, the same price as Star Wars and Pokemon. It's that's the difficulty in the hobby is you know these companies like if everything is around 10 to 15 grand okay you know then you then you can look at each game individually and and and really ask like am I seeing like that that extra innovation that extra passion that extra sort of effort if you will um >> if Stern breaks their pricing though if
    15:49
    if Stern breaks their pricing though if
    15:49
    if Stern breaks their pricing though if they start identifying games that have less in it do you think they're shooting themselves in the foot though >> they yeah they They can't and they can't
    15:56
    they yeah they They can't and they can't
    15:56
    they yeah they They can't and they can't they'll never lower prices again because then they'll have just a mutiny of everybody who bought at those higher prices all those years even though those people have been absorbing significant losses over the last four years, >> right?
    16:09
    right?
    16:09
    right? >> And it's it's tough. It's tough. I think
    16:12
    And it's it's tough. It's tough. I think
    16:12
    And it's it's tough. It's tough. I think co really did put pinball pricing on a level that it's still recovering from there. We >> we Yeah.
    16:22
    we Yeah.
    16:22
    we Yeah. >> Sorry. I just I agree with you so much.
    16:25
    Sorry. I just I agree with you so much.
    16:25
    Sorry. I just I agree with you so much. It's hard to like keep it inside. >> I will say this, we used to we used to
    16:30
    I will say this, we used to we used to
    16:30
    I will say this, we used to we used to scalp a game that was hot. Like I scalped Ghostbusters Ellie and Batman Ellie back in the day. And when we scalped those games, you know what we got? We got 2,000 over MSRP. We the two grand in the bank and we went on with our day and everybody was happy. >> And you see Pokemon at 30 to $50,000.
    16:46
    And you see Pokemon at 30 to $50,000.
    16:46
    And you see Pokemon at 30 to $50,000. Now >> that's that's what would happen if
    16:48
    that's that's what would happen if
    16:48
    that's that's what would happen if Ghostbusters LE came out today and it was 13. then you're looking at 20 on the table. And you got to remember Ghostbusters LE I think was $7,500. So, you know, you were happy if you got $9,500. Someone got a game, you know, transaction done. Boom. But after co the second people were spending $40,000 for a Pirates of the Caribbean CE new in box. >> Yeah.
    17:12
    Yeah.
    17:12
    Yeah. >> What's happening?
    17:12
    What's happening?
    17:12
    What's happening? >> Wow.
    17:14
    Wow.
    17:14
    Wow. >> And waited like 10 years for Wizard mode
    17:16
    And waited like 10 years for Wizard mode
    17:16
    And waited like 10 years for Wizard mode for it. >> Yeah.
    17:18
    Yeah.
    17:18
    Yeah. and and those games sat in boxes for a year unsold at 125 and so it just created a kind of it got crazy for a while. I think it's come back down. I think it is a buyer market. There's so much good pinball out there and if you just turn off the FOMO who care like I don't think anyone cares anymore about Ellies to be honest. I really don't. It used to be used to mean something. I >> I bought two because I didn't want to
    17:44
    I bought two because I didn't want to
    17:44
    I bought two because I didn't want to put the art blades in. I didn't want to put in the sound package. I didn't want to, right? Like it was a convenience thing for the cost. And at this point, I'm just like, man, I'd rather do the work myself. It's just not it's not worth the value to me. Um, just a quick interjection. We are a live show. We have a bunch of uh interesting shoutouts here. Ian from Nudge Mag wants to know, "What if count chocolate pin though from Stern?" Deep thoughts. >> I mean, no. No.
    18:08
    I mean, no. No.
    18:08
    I mean, no. No. >> Just not.
    18:11
    Just not.
    18:11
    Just not. >> Uh CK Liner Jr. says, "If Stern offered
    18:14
    Uh CK Liner Jr. says, "If Stern offered
    18:14
    Uh CK Liner Jr. says, "If Stern offered $500 off non-licensed themes that they would show some goodwill to buyers and people would be happy for a unique theme. Do you think that's a solution?" Um, yeah, maybe. I, you know, I I really am curious because I don't think an original theme like a Black Knight or a Dracula, I I just don't think it works in their three tier model system. I think what they what they should do versus $500 off only make one version and make it out of the gate somewhat limited. So, let's just >> like 60th,
    18:48
    like 60th,
    18:48
    like 60th, >> right? But again, that game, right? Look
    18:51
    right? But again, that game, right? Look
    18:51
    right? But again, that game, right? Look what they did. They fleeced everybody. But if if Brian Eddie made only 1500 Draculas, right? There's only one trim. Everything's got everything on it and it's, you know, you could I don't I don't like Let's say it's 10. All right. I this bond should have been 10 because then it's like a a glorified premium. It's the price of a premium. You know, it's an unlicensed IP and then I think all those 1500 owners, you you'd bake in some value. It'd still be somewhat rare and then you're on to the next game. I just think if they try to make an Ellie, a premium, and a pro of an original Dracula game, it's just going to it's not going to work, >> right? I mean, and now, you know, with
    19:33
    right? I mean, and now, you know, with
    19:33
    right? I mean, and now, you know, with Jack stepping down from doing some design work. I mean, there's an opportunity for him to do some of these like limited edition release games as well. Let him explore like the kind of creative ideas that he was bringing to pinball. Like it just Yeah. Uh Larson F1R gave a super chat. Thank you for the bucks. He says, "Canada sucks." Well, that's not very nice. I'm guessing that's one of your guys. >> It's okay. I do suck at times.
    19:57
    It's okay. I do suck at times.
    19:57
    It's okay. I do suck at times. >> Me, too. I I suck. We both suck. We suck
    19:59
    Me, too. I I suck. We both suck. We suck
    19:59
    Me, too. I I suck. We both suck. We suck hard, man. like real hard, you know. >> So, but on top of them needing to adjust
    20:05
    So, but on top of them needing to adjust
    20:06
    So, but on top of them needing to adjust their pricing models, right? You know, you talked about like when you are critical of a company like that, what are you doing it what what's the end result here to try to get to spark a conversation to force them to do something better, right? Like what's the endgame for a commentary like that? >> Yeah. I I just want to see either more
    20:24
    Yeah. I I just want to see either more
    20:24
    Yeah. I I just want to see either more for the money or a better price and and I think it's just I think everybody wants to see that. I this isn't like I've come to some incredible conclusion on this or there's it's very insightful. >> Um but I just think we're living in a
    20:36
    Um but I just think we're living in a
    20:36
    Um but I just think we're living in a world now where everyone's getting less for their money everywhere. >> Everywhere you turn, it's like your
    20:41
    Everywhere you turn, it's like your
    20:41
    Everywhere you turn, it's like your money is worth less. Your dollar doesn't go as far. Doesn't happen at the grocery store. It doesn't happen at the gas pump. And it sure as heck doesn't happen at the pinball dealer anymore. And so as things become so much more expensive as consumers, we always have the power because if we don't buy, I don't think these companies are going out of business. I think they put more into the future products. And to that's why I think people should keep their money in their wallet when they see something that might not be worth it. Uh and again, everyone's going to buy what they want to though. don't think like if I come out and I'm poo pooing John Wick because there's no guns on the art that there's going to be uh you know people are not going to buy it. Now, they didn't buy it, but for many other reasons, I think. But I do think we've seen such great progress though from the boutique companies. Like Spooky is a company that I I've dragged Spooky over the coals over the years for what I believe to be like shortcuts or design decisions or creative ideas that weren't the best. Look at them now. They took all the feedback, not just from me, but from the community. They took all the feedback. They absorbed an artist that Stern, you know, got rid of. They shouldn't have. Everyone loves St. >> He's talking about Franchie, by the way,
    22:00
    He's talking about Franchie, by the way,
    22:00
    He's talking about Franchie, by the way, for those of you who aren't familiar with this. >> Yeah. They love his artwork. So, you
    22:04
    Yeah. They love his artwork. So, you
    22:04
    Yeah. They love his artwork. So, you know, they they put all the pieces together. They saw, you know, they they listen to their own feedback that wasn't always positive and they improved. And that's the one thing about, you know, Stern that's got to be hard for them. Imagine having 80s something% of the market. Imagine seeing everyone start a post that's like after Winchester came out people are like Stern's screwed and George Gomez is like I make more games between Monday and Wednesday these guys will make all year. How am I >> It shows a disconnect of knowing like
    22:37
    It shows a disconnect of knowing like
    22:37
    It shows a disconnect of knowing like the the scale that Stern manufactures their products at. I I don't think they give two shits what any of these smaller companies are doing. It just doesn't affect them. >> No. when George would walk over to
    22:47
    No. when George would walk over to
    22:47
    No. when George would walk over to Winchester or even a Beetlejuice and be like, "If I made this, I would lose money." >> Right?
    22:51
    Right?
    22:51
    Right? >> Just just because the way his platform
    22:54
    Just just because the way his platform
    22:54
    Just just because the way his platform and his manufacturing needs to operate, he might not be able to make money at scale putting that much in. >> I've talked about this concept before on
    23:01
    I've talked about this concept before on
    23:01
    I've talked about this concept before on a previous podcast where like a lot of the lower smaller, you know, pinball companies are more like indie film companies, right? They're like indie studios. They make the weird films, you know, like the what's the one with the the It's like he rides a guy. He's like farting to get off an island or something. God, who's that guy for? You know what I'm talking about? >> Swiss Army knife man. Weird [ __ ]
    23:21
    Swiss Army knife man. Weird [ __ ]
    23:21
    Swiss Army knife man. Weird [ __ ] movie. So, the movies like this that are just like so insane that no studio would ever touch it. Found an audience. They get manufactured. They get produced. Like that's kind of like what the smaller pinball companies are to me. They don't like Univers Universal doesn't give two shits about, you know, this tiny indie movie. Like, do you think A24 Studios is really like cutting into like massive profits coming out of Sony Pictures? No. It's just >> it's just not a thing.
    23:47
    it's just not a thing.
    23:47
    it's just not a thing. >> But it's crazy that a boutique has
    23:50
    But it's crazy that a boutique has
    23:50
    But it's crazy that a boutique has Beetlejuice, which Stern is definitely would have sold a lot more Beetlejues than DNDs or John Wix didn't lock up Back to the Future. So, some of these boutiques are locking in some pretty big banger themes, especially themes that appeal to this demographic, which is always another interesting part of this hobby. And I think a lot of that has to do with the people that are selling the IP rights for these. They have no idea what [ __ ] pinball is at all. No. So, they don't they don't know, you know, if they didn't give it to Stern that they're missing out on having a 4,000 unit run or a 6,000 unit run versus 500, right? They're just like, "Oh, it's going to be a pinball machine, whatever." And I love that because I think that allows for IPs like Beetlejuice, like you're saying, to be in the hands of a company that's going to be doing some weird [ __ ] with it just to see what the community feels about it, you know, instead of making a game that's good but safer. >> Yeah, 100%.
    24:46
    Yeah, 100%.
    24:46
    Yeah, 100%. But still passed on Back to the Future. There there there's there's a moment where like who made that decision? I still never >> to me that I to me that feels like they
    24:55
    to me that I to me that feels like they
    24:55
    to me that I to me that feels like they couldn't get license rights to like one of the main characters or like something important that they knew that the community wouldn't like >> it's all in there. It's in all
    25:03
    it's all in there. It's in all
    25:03
    it's all in there. It's in all >> Oh, really? Okay.
    25:05
    Oh, really? Okay.
    25:05
    Oh, really? Okay. >> Never mind. Uh so let's jump into leaks
    25:08
    Never mind. Uh so let's jump into leaks
    25:08
    Never mind. Uh so let's jump into leaks real quick. We'll talk about that and then I want to jump back because we've been talking a lot about the the industry instead of you and this this whole episode is really more about you. But so you are a just a wizard. I think I called you a leak genie. like you just have an amazing ability of getting information about the pinball just behind the scenes and it's usually right. How? Well, cuz people send it to me because they don't want to be the bad guy and they know I'll be the bad guy. Cuz when you leak some information, you're a you're spoiling a company's ability to have their moment of >> Sure.
    25:45
    Sure.
    25:45
    Sure. >> even if it's just theme. You know, I I
    25:47
    even if it's just theme. You know, I I
    25:47
    even if it's just theme. You know, I I was upset with one of my fans. He's like, "I knew it was Winchester for a year." And I He's like, "I couldn't believe it. I didn't think >> I highly doubt that, but who knows?"
    25:56
    I highly doubt that, but who knows?"
    25:56
    I highly doubt that, but who knows?" >> Like, "I didn't tell you." He's like, "I
    25:58
    Like, "I didn't tell you." He's like, "I
    25:58
    Like, "I didn't tell you." He's like, "I didn't tell you." I'm like, "First of all, don't tell me after the fact, cuz there's nothing I can do about it." >> The validity of that is nothing.
    26:04
    The validity of that is nothing.
    26:04
    The validity of that is nothing. >> Now, every once in a while, like, cuz
    26:06
    Now, every once in a while, like, cuz
    26:06
    Now, every once in a while, like, cuz some of these people leave, they leave companies, they go to other companies. So, I have friends that travel around the industry. So, I might know stuff all of a sudden that they wouldn't tell me when they were working at the other company, but now I know some of those details. Um, I will say it's very rare though that I get leaked the game itself, like the actual Playfield. The the one time I had some Playfield pickics was Deadpool before it was shown it was. And then I had Guns and Roses in my phone for like a year before Eric revealed it. And I purposely never leaked that because I did feel that he should be the one who shows the world what he's been working on for a few years and not spoil that. So it it you know, but like themes leaking themes is like I don't really care about that. Like we're all talking about Sonic the Hedgehog. It's not confirmed. It is Sonic the Hedgehog. We're all talking about Back to the Future. That's not even confirmed. It is Back to the Future. Fallout, right? It's like Transformers. Like none of these are officially confirmed. So, when it comes to theme leaking, I think that's just fun. It's fun to speculate and also just helps the the fans maybe wait to see one of those future themes. If they feel like it's coming, maybe you don't buy the thing today that's got you excited. You might wait because something might excite you even more. >> Sure. You did mention that like the
    27:39
    Sure. You did mention that like the
    27:39
    Sure. You did mention that like the surprise of Winchester though was one of the reasons that it made it so successful. Is hearing the theme for those projects going to build a false narrative of what the game should be based on whoever the individual is and kind of ruin their when they actually do see the game instead of where they would have maybe originally been excited about it. No, they've had a year to think about what Stern should have been doing. They see the game and it's the opposite. >> Yeah, 100%. Like I feel like Avatar was
    28:02
    Yeah, 100%. Like I feel like Avatar was
    28:02
    Yeah, 100%. Like I feel like Avatar was like that. We all knew it was Avatar. We didn't want >> Wait, which one? I'm assuming you're
    28:05
    Wait, which one? I'm assuming you're
    28:06
    Wait, which one? I'm assuming you're talking JJP, right? Yeah, say Dune. Dune suffered from this. So, David learned the battle. >> That's a really good example.
    28:12
    That's a really good example.
    28:12
    That's a really good example. >> Everybody was like, "Don't make Dune.
    28:15
    Everybody was like, "Don't make Dune.
    28:15
    Everybody was like, "Don't make Dune. Don't make" and then he then it was like, "It's Dune." you know, and like we knew for so long and and that was like a interesting moment where I think David should have maybe just confirmed it earlier and brought people on board to show the cool mech and everything going into it and all the hard work and all the assets and instead, you know, I think he tried to do the all right, not going to say anything until we pull the curtain off and then so then you kind of had that underwhelming moment. Same thing happened with Elton John. Like we just themes that like >> the games are much better than people's
    28:51
    the games are much better than people's
    28:51
    the games are much better than people's prejudices against them are like much better like Dune is so much better Elton John they're so much better than all the noise of like we don't want Elton John we don't want Dune and that was what the army was screaming >> and so that's like you know I do think
    29:06
    and so that's like you know I do think
    29:06
    and so that's like you know I do think sometimes with some themes where you know there's maybe some skepticism it might be better to pull people into that theme on a longer release runway. way where you start to get people to watch the Dune movies again before you reveal, you know, get them get them excited. >> I know people who bought Dune and had
    29:23
    I know people who bought Dune and had
    29:23
    I know people who bought Dune and had never seen the movie and then watched it and were like, "Wow, this is amazing." I also know people that bought Dune and watched the movie and was like, "This movie sucks." So, I mean, you know, your mileage may vary. What in the So, you in the last 10 years, let's say, right? You've seen when games released and stuff leaked before, do you think that there was a more like positive excitement about like, "Oh, I can't wait to play this game." versus now where it seems like no, I would have done it differently. Like, do you think that modern pinball like criticism is more like they don't wait to try the game or give it a chance? They rather just hate on it before it's even out. >> Yeah. I I think that's just like maybe
    29:58
    Yeah. I I think that's just like maybe
    29:58
    Yeah. I I think that's just like maybe 10% of the community, which are the hyper active >> vocal minority, right?
    30:05
    vocal minority, right?
    30:06
    vocal minority, right? >> Yeah. Like the pin.
    30:07
    Yeah. Like the pin.
    30:07
    Yeah. Like the pin. I think people would be shocked, and I mean this, shocked, if they knew how many people buy these games that are not on Pinside, are not listening to Canadians Pinball Podcast and other content creators, they're not on the face. They don't care. They literally all that paid media you see on Facebook when a new game comes out and all those dealers and dros spamming us endlessly. They're doing that not to change like Crazy Levy's mind on Pinside who hates it before it comes out. They're just doing it to introduce this new game to new people out there. And a lot of these games are bought by people that just want a game in their game room and it looks fun and that they're not going to think about it. They're not going to go online and [ __ ] about the money or the prices or how come the code's not where it needs to be. They don't even know what code is. They don't know what shooter lane wear looks like. They don't know any of this. And those people are the happiest. >> Yeah.
    31:05
    Yeah.
    31:05
    Yeah. >> They have such ignorant bliss and are
    31:08
    They have such ignorant bliss and are
    31:08
    They have such ignorant bliss and are just enjoying this the way it was always meant to be enjoyed. Um, so yeah, I do think that there's a lot of vocal minority that just screams about, you know, these games. I mean, Pokemon's going through that right now. I'm like in the owners club. I'm like, man, these half these guys don't even own the game. They don't even own the game. >> Pokemon's another good example with the
    31:27
    Pokemon's another good example with the
    31:27
    Pokemon's another good example with the the Orbit return thing. And it's like, you know, people were freaking out about how this was like, you know, whatever Wallgate or whatever kind of dumb term they were going to apply to it. Like Stern wasn't going to fix that on immediately on the line, right? Like >> Yeah. Like, do you think Stern's gonna
    31:41
    Yeah. Like, do you think Stern's gonna
    31:41
    Yeah. Like, do you think Stern's gonna buckle down and make 6,000s of these that are [ __ ] up and like just tell everyone to go [ __ ] themselves? Like, of course not. >> Yeah. It was weird because like one of
    31:48
    Yeah. It was weird because like one of
    31:48
    Yeah. It was weird because like one of the This is why like every bit of communication matters in a modern world with social media and and where you can take something and then make it bigger than it needs to be. So Stern's initial response, which came from a Stern customer service person, was, "We're not sure the fix will be implemented in time when we start making the LE's." Like, who >> bad bad email? Do not say that.
    32:11
    bad bad email? Do not say that.
    32:12
    bad bad email? Do not say that. >> And that's all you need to do to set off
    32:13
    And that's all you need to do to set off
    32:13
    And that's all you need to do to set off the panic that the most expensive version is going to have the issue. My game plays fine out of the box and I'm enjoying it and haven't had a single issue. So, you know, they're going to fix it. They're going to make it right. There's a warranty on these games. It's not a great warranty, but there is one. >> True. It's just strange that that's like
    32:31
    True. It's just strange that that's like
    32:31
    True. It's just strange that that's like the narrative there cuz I mean like you know Dunes and Winchesterers if issues that pop up on the forums, but the narrative there is that like their barrels customer service would take care of anything. And it's true. Like any small thing that you reach out to them, they work to try to get it done. >> Why is that not the same with Stern?
    32:49
    Why is that not the same with Stern?
    32:49
    Why is that not the same with Stern? >> Like I've reached out to Stern. I had
    32:50
    Like I've reached out to Stern. I had
    32:50
    Like I've reached out to Stern. I had issues. They fix stuff. It's just it's the same thing. >> Yeah. Then they they'll take care of
    32:55
    Yeah. Then they they'll take care of
    32:55
    Yeah. Then they they'll take care of you. I mean, it's very rare that whenever people are like, "I emailed like Spooky or JJP and never heard back." It's like, "Well, did you call them?" Right. >> Every once in a while, maybe someone
    33:06
    Every once in a while, maybe someone
    33:06
    Every once in a while, maybe someone misses an email. And and it never ceases to amaze me like at what point do people give up and spend more energy going on an online slandering mission of the company versus just call them, pick up the phone, hey Melissa, coint taker, where's my Alice refund? She'll pick up. like don't go on the pin side like and these dudes >> coin
    33:26
    coin
    33:26
    coin >> taker sucks. I they stole my money.
    33:29
    taker sucks. I they stole my money.
    33:29
    taker sucks. I they stole my money. >> Yeah, I saw I love too the urgent the
    33:31
    Yeah, I saw I love too the urgent the
    33:31
    Yeah, I saw I love too the urgent the urgency that some guy posted about Dune like urgent. It was like Sunday night urgent like urgent like give the company a chance to wake up Monday morning on a normal business hour and help you fix your game. >> I don't know. You know, an email is
    33:43
    I don't know. You know, an email is
    33:43
    I don't know. You know, an email is really important when it starts with urgent in all capital letters. That's how I make sure that my emails get read. >> Weird. It's like go do something else
    33:51
    Weird. It's like go do something else
    33:52
    Weird. It's like go do something else for 12 hours and and barrels will take care of you in the morning. >> It's true. So when you say things that
    33:59
    It's true. So when you say things that
    33:59
    It's true. So when you say things that are challenging to a company's kind of design concepts, right? Like do you worry about damaging the relationship with them? Like where do you want to be with pinball in the future where you feel that like is it going to be more difficult if you damage relationships with companies by saying something that might be true or even worse that might that isn't true? Yeah. Well, I I have a responsibility more to my my fans and my listeners than I do to a pinball company. I have no monetary connection to those companies. Um, and I I know what the line is where if I say something, there's a lot of different ways you could say something to burn bridges and relationships. I I sort of pride myself after all these years. I have really good relationships with Stern, Jersey Jack, Spooky, Barrels, American Pinball, now American Pinball. >> Yeah, I was gonna say which which which
    34:53
    Yeah, I was gonna say which which which
    34:53
    Yeah, I was gonna say which which which logo >> um I think the only like pinball
    34:58
    um I think the only like pinball
    34:58
    um I think the only like pinball manufacturer that I'm I the one that I don't have really have much of a relationship, but Jerry's a nice guy, but I don't really care about Multimorphic P3. I don't care about home pin. Like there's some of them out there like Pinball Brothers. I've been ragging on Predator because I don't care. like at at some point I I'm allowed to have my favorites as well. And that's the thing is, you know, if there's companies out there where I'm really not paying you much attention after all these years, it's not because of something I did. Trust me, it's because of something they haven't done. No. And I don't talk a lot. I don't But see, the thing is this. It's like Multimmorph is a good example. Like I'm not gonna I don't even spend much air time because I know that there's not a lot of people that own it. There's not a lot of people. So, I don't need to be a jerk and like rag on the platform. It is what it is. It's Jerry's dream. He's he's doubled down on it. Um, at some point, you know, you just don't have to keep kicking, you know, every issue that some of these companies have. It's not for me. I wouldn't buy it. Some people love it, others don't. But, you know, for the most part, I I have great relationships with the big companies. I know more than people know about what's coming out from these companies and I don't break a lot of the secrets I do have with some of these manufacturers. So it's exciting. >> So chat so chat's some of Chad is
    36:13
    So chat so chat's some of Chad is
    36:13
    So chat so chat's some of Chad is talking about how Multimorphic is should be given an opportunity to to show off their technology and I guess the question I don't have a dog in this race. You know you talk about creativity pushing in pinball. To me it seems like multimmorphic is a pretty big step trying to do something very very different. If that's not the creative move, what are some examples of stuff that you think is a more creative value for your money that should be in pinball? >> Yeah. I mean, I've always felt
    36:37
    Yeah. I mean, I've always felt
    36:37
    Yeah. I mean, I've always felt multimorphic was a solution in search of a problem. And and the thing is the whole modular platform is the platform that you can buy one base unit, switch in the modular units in the back and have a plethora of games without with only having to buy one physical cabinet, right? So it's like, but again, like >> it's an interesting premise,
    37:02
    it's an interesting premise,
    37:02
    it's an interesting premise, >> right? And the dude who should own one
    37:03
    right? And the dude who should own one
    37:03
    right? And the dude who should own one is me. I have room for one game, one physical full-size cabinet in my house upstairs. The thing is this, the part that Jerry, if he had done market research, you know, because he has a little bit of Steve Jobs in him, he thinks he's going to invent something that people don't know they want. But the problem is what he ran into, and I'm looking at behind you right now. People love seeing their games, even when they're not on. They love that each game in itself is a entire world of that theme. They don't want they don't want to see a big black empty screen, no artwork when the game is turned off. And they also, you know, when you think about here's here's one thing as a marketer, Jerry, let's say I go all in on your platform and I believe in the modular system, right? They haven't even sold to customers a a display case where you could store your unused modular units while they're not in the cabinet. I mean, if you expect your customers to own more than one, that just seems like a no-brainer. Like, how could you not have some sort of storage system? >> Customers have had to make them. But,
    38:10
    Customers have had to make them. But,
    38:10
    Customers have had to make them. But, you know, when we bought Nintendo cartridges, these are like basically pinball cartridges that you're popping in and out. They sold you a way to sort of keep them all organized in a nicel looking way, right? >> And it's those little things. But look,
    38:23
    And it's those little things. But look,
    38:23
    And it's those little things. But look, look, I've said this the same thing. Like, Jerry could have been making millions. He knows it. Like just make a normal pinball machine and it will sell. That's they they have such good engineering over at Multimmorphic. I that's >> Oh, for sure. Portal is pretty amazing
    38:38
    Oh, for sure. Portal is pretty amazing
    38:38
    Oh, for sure. Portal is pretty amazing in terms of what it can do with all of its [ __ ] pathways and ball launches and stuff. >> Look at the crane and heisty. He must be
    38:45
    Look at the crane and heisty. He must be
    38:45
    Look at the crane and heisty. He must be looking at this like I've just put it in a normal cabinet, you know? >> Yeah.
    38:51
    Yeah.
    38:51
    Yeah. >> I I just don't get it. But you know, but
    38:54
    I I just don't get it. But you know, but
    38:54
    I I just don't get it. But you know, but in terms of your your question though, the only real innovation we still suffer not to get in 2026 is the right kind of connected internet gameplay. Like why? Like why why can't and I don't think the companies want it. I'll tell you why. Because it will kill needing to buy more games if the replay value is so damn enjoyable. If you're playing against your friends with the same machine, it's like I could play FIFA or Madden on Xbox, a good version of it, forever. Forever if I can find other people online. >> I think replayability is one of the most
    39:30
    I think replayability is one of the most
    39:30
    I think replayability is one of the most important design elements of any pinball machine, >> right? So, you know, we and we still
    39:35
    right? So, you know, we and we still
    39:35
    right? So, you know, we and we still don't have in 2026 an ability to connect like four Ninja Turtle games. So, each your each one of your friends is one of the Ninja Turtles. we don't have an ability to go one v one. So, I think we might see that with Sonic. I think we might see Sonic and Tails. I think we might see headto-head uh, you know, seeing using the camera to see who you're playing against. That stuff might happen. I just think it would add such a fun element. I mean, especially with Pokemon. I mean, if if we had real connectivity, you could actually catch the Pokemon, trade them with other people that have the Pokemon machine, like put some of that in there. But other than that, >> that's definitely coming. the whole like
    40:13
    that's definitely coming. the whole like
    40:13
    that's definitely coming. the whole like Pokedex and trading. I feel like they have to like pursue that. It's such a core fundamental thing for Pokemon fans. >> Yeah. But we're we're like we're we're
    40:21
    Yeah. But we're we're like we're we're
    40:21
    Yeah. But we're we're like we're we're hoping it comes. It didn't come on launch when I wrote a check for 14,000. So that's that's the thing. But I also if if you could tell me I could have more games that are loaded and fun with no internet connect connectivity, I'd be fine with that because pinball will always be an analog game and a lot of the innovations in the tech space on the screen have taken away from the mechanical magic that was in these games. And that is, you know, that is apparent and I think we're getting back to really, really interesting mechs and usages of innovation. I love >> Sure. Last 10 years have made some
    40:59
    Sure. Last 10 years have made some
    40:59
    Sure. Last 10 years have made some interesting mechs from every manufacturer almost. I feel like they're all trying to have that one like cool thing that's more interesting than every other pinball table. >> Yeah, it's it's it it's it's what makes
    41:12
    Yeah, it's it's it it's it's what makes
    41:12
    Yeah, it's it's it it's it's what makes pinball so fun. You stare down under the glass and you see something happening mechanically and you wonder, "How do I get there? What does that do? We're still not as good as the Bally Williams days, but it's it's getting better. >> Yeah, for sure. Or got with I mean, I
    41:26
    Yeah, for sure. Or got with I mean, I
    41:26
    Yeah, for sure. Or got with I mean, I think that like Spooky is kind of like the gotle of of now, right? They're just like they'll do crazy things into the games to the point where maybe it's not fun, but it's still like they're willing to try it just to see if it works. And like you got to respect that kind of like I don't know, ballsy innovation even if it doesn't land. >> Um
    41:43
    Um
    41:43
    Um >> Yeah.
    41:45
    Yeah.
    41:45
    Yeah. How how have you liked your your Pokemon? I I'm I'm timid on having this conversation because I have not played enough Pokemon. We have one at Ace. I have done a little bit of the Pokemoning, >> but I I mean I keep going from Guns and
    42:00
    but I I mean I keep going from Guns and
    42:00
    but I I mean I keep going from Guns and Roses to Pokemon is not a fair journey because I go from one game that they didn't have any flow to a game that is so flowy and easy, you know? It's all flow. Like I like I I just played it again this morning after the kids went to daycare. Uh we've been playing it on the weekend as a family. I really enjoy it, but it is got a lot of of code needed. You know, it it has got a lot of like the four environments aren't represented yet. The there's only a handful of things to do right now. I think so much of it is coming, but as as a game now, yeah, it's pretty simple. It's pretty basic. I think what I like is it makes me seem like I'm a better player than I am. I think it's going to make everybody feel like a better pinball player than they are. I think you go from this to like Jurassic Park and you're just going to feel like you suck in the mail again. >> Yeah, my I have my Jurassic Park I owned
    42:58
    Yeah, my I have my Jurassic Park I owned
    42:58
    Yeah, my I have my Jurassic Park I owned for like I mean I still own it. It's at a friend's place, but the first three months of it I just felt like it bent me over the table and just did it did its way with me. It was It was hard. >> Yeah. But Pokemon, what I love, and
    43:08
    Yeah. But Pokemon, what I love, and
    43:08
    Yeah. But Pokemon, what I love, and you'll appreciate this from a sound perspective, and you know, it's amazing the the sound effects and the music and the the the callouts and and even just the animations on the screen. I think it's the best usage of the big screen on a Stern ever. >> Sure.
    43:23
    Sure.
    43:23
    Sure. >> And I think they nailed all those
    43:24
    And I think they nailed all those
    43:24
    And I think they nailed all those details. I just think it needs a lot more. A lot more will come. Uh, so yeah, I'm enjoying it, but I again I don't I don't see a $13,000 product. I mean, the cabinet decals are annoying me because I went from those beautiful rad cows and Barrels has the beautiful kind of rad cows. Spooky's got the butter cabinet. Seeing just the cheap sticker on a $13,000 game on the side of the cabinet, it kind of annoys me because you can see you can't perfectly squeegee the entire decal without having every once in a while you see a little speck underneath it cuz some dust got underneath it. You're never going to see that on a rad cow or a much better decal because >> well it's a thicker piece of material so
    44:09
    well it's a thicker piece of material so
    44:09
    well it's a thicker piece of material so it can cover up those textures. That's what I'm saying. It's like it's like that for this much money and we know Stern knows how to put better decals on the sides of its LE. And so that's the part that just irks me. It's like one step forward, two steps back in some areas. And it's like 13 grand where, you know, come on. It's a sticker. Just give me the better version of it. >> Right. But
    44:35
    Right. But
    44:36
    Right. But >> do you think that the majority of people
    44:37
    do you think that the majority of people
    44:37
    do you think that the majority of people buying those games other than that like 10% of people that really know pinball would know the difference though? >> If they saw it next to it, sure. You
    44:46
    If they saw it next to it, sure. You
    44:46
    If they saw it next to it, sure. You know, there's that that's that's it. When you walk over to a Jersey Jack or a Beetlejuice and then you walk over to a Stern, I mean, it's getting real hard to justify that $13,000 Stern price. Um, that's it's it's really an issue. I just I don't think they ever thought that Jersey Jack would get their act together and make games shoot as good as a Stern. Steve Richie is a huge acquisition for them. >> Sure.
    45:11
    Sure.
    45:11
    Sure. >> Um and I don't think they ever thought a
    45:13
    Um and I don't think they ever thought a
    45:13
    Um and I don't think they ever thought a company like Spooky would would be able to design a game and make a game as beautiful and fullfeatured as as Beetlejuice. Now again, I don't think Stern's feeling it on their bottom line at all, but it's more about the perception and that is the issue on the only really on the Ellie models is like >> it's just not worth it.
    45:33
    it's just not worth it.
    45:33
    it's just not worth it. >> It seems like Stern's fighting more of a
    45:35
    It seems like Stern's fighting more of a
    45:35
    It seems like Stern's fighting more of a like you said a perception war than a than a financial battle, right? Like the more companies are doing creative stuff and then the more Sterns like throwing a bone towards operators, like there's nothing wrong with having a game that's simple, shoots fast, is easy for new players to pick up. Like it don't buy it for your home if that's not a game you want in your home. Like but that doesn't mean that it can't do well on location for arcades or getting kids into pinball or any of that. >> They they struggle with volume versus
    46:03
    They they struggle with volume versus
    46:03
    They they struggle with volume versus the collector community. That's what their big problem is now. See, if you're a boutique, you don't even have to think about that. Every game you make is is kind of collectible by by nature of it being >> design. Not design, but by the nature of
    46:17
    design. Not design, but by the nature of
    46:17
    design. Not design, but by the nature of it. Yeah, >> that's it. Like Stern Stern's got be
    46:19
    that's it. Like Stern Stern's got be
    46:19
    that's it. Like Stern Stern's got be like, "Oh man, how do we like differentiate enough?" And then they must be looking at what what's happening to their own products on the secondhand market and and wondering cuz I I definitely think they were going to price increase by now, but they can't for
    46:39
    No.
    46:40
    No. >> Um what are your non-negotiables for
    46:42
    Um what are your non-negotiables for
    46:42
    Um what are your non-negotiables for modern pinball then? Like what do you what what needs to be in a game for you to be like I'm going to put $13,000 into this? >> Two flippers.
    46:51
    Two flippers.
    46:51
    Two flippers. >> Done. just a white wood with two
    46:53
    Done. just a white wood with two
    46:53
    Done. just a white wood with two flippers. >> I just watch Pop Bumpers where the
    46:55
    I just watch Pop Bumpers where the
    46:56
    I just watch Pop Bumpers where the flippers are. Um I for me the non-negotiable, first and foremost, it has to look good. And I I'll start there because like art should not be hard to make a game look good. Like there's just so many great artists out there and for this much money because you see these things are playable works of art. So we just start they should look great. The themes should be the right kind of theme for pinball and and that is just like like Godfather, a good example. Horrible theme for pinball. >> Why? Why is that? I'm curious. What do
    47:31
    Why? Why is that? I'm curious. What do
    47:31
    Why? Why is that? I'm curious. What do you think is a good theme for pinball versus a bad theme? >> Something with some something with some
    47:35
    Something with some something with some
    47:35
    Something with some something with some high energy. Something where the movie itself could translate into like a pinball experience that would be fun to go through it. >> Do you think Sopranos is a good theme
    47:44
    Do you think Sopranos is a good theme
    47:44
    Do you think Sopranos is a good theme then? I mean, a more than Godfather because Sopranos had a lot more like campy like sort of like dramatic mob scenes. Like Good Fellows was better than God. Godfather's just slow like slow drama. I think Good Fellows and Sopranos are more high energy mafia, you know, pieces of content. Um, but yeah, like like like Shaw Shank Redemption for example, like great movie. >> Not a good that would not make a good
    48:19
    Not a good that would not make a good
    48:19
    Not a good that would not make a good pinball machine. >> Pinball,
    48:21
    Pinball,
    48:21
    Pinball, >> right?
    48:22
    right?
    48:22
    right? >> So
    48:23
    So
    48:23
    So >> pickaxe tiny pickaxe multiball.
    48:26
    pickaxe tiny pickaxe multiball.
    48:26
    pickaxe tiny pickaxe multiball. >> Yeah, it's just like Titanic. I mean, I
    48:28
    Yeah, it's just like Titanic. I mean, I
    48:28
    Yeah, it's just like Titanic. I mean, I I've been arguing that I think actually Titanic would make a great pinball machine because of like making the the whole ship as like the big like whole second half of the game would be and it leans and it tilt it amazing. Um, but yeah, so I think, you know, get make it look good, pick a theme people want, and then obviously the gameplay. I've learned this that game play does matter so much, right? And it just because gameplay is going to be why you keep it for a while. I if it's not fun to shoot, and I'll use an example like Alice, you know, Alice was a beautiful pin, Zombie Yeti's art package. Alice was visually stunning when it came out, right? and everyone saw the photos and they saw it shows the line was down the block to play it, but the gameplay is not there, right? The code's not there. So, it really is a a combination of of amazing software and gameplay that just makes it addictive and >> and it is still subjective for everyone
    49:27
    and it is still subjective for everyone
    49:27
    and it is still subjective for everyone who walks up to any game. But I think that's it. You know, I look at my stage now in life, I'm uh I don't want to spend this much money on any pinball machine. I got to be honest. Like I that's why for me to spend this much, it has to be something that I know is going to be like very very special. >> Yeah. You could buy three or four good
    49:45
    Yeah. You could buy three or four good
    49:45
    Yeah. You could buy three or four good 90s games like 10 20 years ago for the same cost as like single Ellie or a premium. It's crazy. >> So So I just want a game that I can
    49:53
    So So I just want a game that I can
    49:54
    So So I just want a game that I can teach my family and especially Killian because he's old enough to play on. And I definitely >> Happy birthday to Killian by the way.
    50:01
    Happy birthday to Killian by the way.
    50:01
    Happy birthday to Killian by the way. Thank you. Thank you. He's hopefully doesn't expect these kinds of gifts every year. Yeah. >> Gonna get expensive.
    50:08
    Gonna get expensive.
    50:08
    Gonna get expensive. >> Yeah. It's a perfect It's a perfect pin
    50:11
    Yeah. It's a perfect It's a perfect pin
    50:11
    Yeah. It's a perfect It's a perfect pin to teach your kid how to play pinball on. He's five. If you're 55 and you're amazing at pinball, you're probably not going to love Pokemon. You're probably not because you're just you're going to be looking for a lot more in a game and it's not a theme for you. And I totally respect that. And the thing about Stern is they make such a wide variety of games. Just allow them to have this more simple game without it making you upset. I always ask that if you have to look at Stern and its totality of songs are their games, right? When it if you use Guns and Roses as an example, like they've got all their bangers that they can fill the stadium with. Stern has those. But every once in a while, they're going to make a slow 10-minute ballad song. It doesn't mean they now suck, that they've lost their edge. It's just variety is the spice of pinball life. >> True. The narrative that Stern is like
    51:03
    True. The narrative that Stern is like
    51:03
    True. The narrative that Stern is like unable to make a good game anymore or something like that that has been generating is just like ridiculous. It's got to go. You're looking at five teams of like the most talented like legacy individuals that have been making games and or new people that they've brought in that are whether they're programmers or designers. Like I don't know. I I think that's stupid. I think this whole brand like affiliation in terms of like uh loving one company versus another is silly. I think it should be literally just about the game. Like the game is really the product. It's not It doesn't matter where it comes from. So >> yeah, I I think there's a lot more um
    51:37
    yeah, I I think there's a lot more um
    51:37
    yeah, I I think there's a lot more um there's less of that now than there was like a few years ago. I I think there's a lot more acceptance of what everyone's bringing to market than there used to be. What's what's a trend you've seen in your community that has been like that stood out over like your 10 years of this? Like have you seen how people like how do people share pinball in a different way now versus 10 years ago? >> It's a good question. I don't think too
    52:02
    It's a good question. I don't think too
    52:02
    It's a good question. I don't think too much has changed in terms of like people sharing their unfiltered opinions about every game. There definitely are still the the trolls of each company. See, see the thing about my my chat that's on my Patreon that's interesting is it's it's it's got this mixture of people that are open-minded and then people who just like slam everything JJP does. They'll slam everything. >> A mix of open-minded and little trolls.
    52:31
    A mix of open-minded and little trolls.
    52:32
    A mix of open-minded and little trolls. Excellent. >> Yeah. Like like were made up before they
    52:34
    Yeah. Like like were made up before they
    52:34
    Yeah. Like like were made up before they even see anything coming from any of these organizations. And it's it's almost just entertaining to listen to people be so close-minded and and there's almost an entertainment in trying to change someone's mind who is like that because you know the topic is so it's so harmless. It's pinball. Um dude, you nailed it. You see people get so worked up over this and it's like it's comedy. It's like why why what are you defending? like you're defending a an entertainment hobby. Like, >> yeah, I've always said that like people
    53:09
    yeah, I've always said that like people
    53:09
    yeah, I've always said that like people sometimes act like they're investors in these organizations and they have something at stake. They literally have nothing at stake. And unless they're a dealer or DRO who's got unsold inventory, you you shouldn't be so upset. Like, this isn't a a cancer treatment drug that you need to survive. Like no one's putting a gun to your head saying you have to buy this game like this game or anything. Like they same thing with all the content creators. Like nobody's making anyone listen to anybody. Nobody's making you buy any any game. Like it's it's a beautiful community because you can opt in and you can get out of it what you bring to it. And I think that's what I love about Pinball and and the fact that there's not too much product. So for us content creators, we can cover an industry that only has like 10 new items a year. >> Yeah. What other industry has such a
    54:00
    Yeah. What other industry has such a
    54:00
    Yeah. What other industry has such a limited amount of new releases? I mean, I guess car companies, but like you know. >> No, but no, not even. Cars got there's
    54:06
    No, but no, not even. Cars got there's
    54:06
    No, but no, not even. Cars got there's like way more cars coming out every year. There's way more car companies. >> There's way more like watches is I can't
    54:13
    There's way more like watches is I can't
    54:13
    There's way more like watches is I can't even get my head around how many new watches come out every single like month or week, >> right? So such a limited amount of
    54:19
    right? So such a limited amount of
    54:19
    right? So such a limited amount of product from a a hobby, >> right? So, that's what's fun is you can
    54:24
    right? So, that's what's fun is you can
    54:24
    right? So, that's what's fun is you can kind of be an expert on pinball once you get into it. In just a few months, you'll know all you need to know about who's who, what are they making, what's their platform, what are the rumors about what's coming around the corner. Like, you can get caught up to speed, >> which is fun. It's kind of like getting
    54:40
    which is fun. It's kind of like getting
    54:40
    which is fun. It's kind of like getting into I don't know. Like, I don't really follow sports, but like it is kind of like absorbing into a sports team and learning about what that is and the experience of of knowing who's who in the zoo. Like it's it's it's intoxicating. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
    54:55
    Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
    54:55
    Yeah. Yeah. I love it. >> I I know you do. And I appreciate your
    54:57
    I I know you do. And I appreciate your
    54:57
    I I know you do. And I appreciate your polarity. Yeah. I mean, you really are the the counter uh counterculture opinion for a lot of stuff, but I think that there's a there's a necessary presence for someone who's not uh afraid to to piss off people and say stuff that that is going to rattle some bones. But, you know, you do say things pretty aggressively. I mean, yeah, there's I will say there's never been a moment where like if I've been too aggressive or too hateful where where I've felt good about it. I mean, I I think I'm probably am the champion of deleting the most amount of my own content too in the pinball content space. >> It just shows you're passionate because
    55:37
    It just shows you're passionate because
    55:37
    It just shows you're passionate because you you do first and then not think about it, but you'll like you'll reflect, you know? >> You know what's funny is when people get
    55:43
    You know what's funny is when people get
    55:43
    You know what's funny is when people get mad about that, you're not allowed to delete it. like, okay, like first of all, >> it's your post.
    55:49
    it's your post.
    55:49
    it's your post. >> It's my post.
    55:50
    It's my post.
    55:50
    It's my post. >> It's my page. And maybe I've changed my
    55:53
    It's my page. And maybe I've changed my
    55:53
    It's my page. And maybe I've changed my mind. That's the other part is people can change their minds. They can go from thinking this sucks to now this game has evolved and now I like it. And you're allowed to have a a moment in which you reflect and and have a different perspective on something. Um, but the >> what's a game you think what what's a
    56:13
    what's a game you think what what's a
    56:13
    what's a game you think what what's a game you think was just awful when it came out and you you reflected or went back on it and it was like okay >> yeah like I mean Batman 66 was awful for
    56:21
    yeah like I mean Batman 66 was awful for
    56:21
    yeah like I mean Batman 66 was awful for everybody and that became an amazing game when the >> Yeah, that's like one of my favorite
    56:25
    Yeah, that's like one of my favorite
    56:25
    Yeah, that's like one of my favorite Gomez games for sure and Franch's first artwork. >> Yeah, it was it was which he did in like
    56:31
    Yeah, it was it was which he did in like
    56:31
    Yeah, it was it was which he did in like two weeks. the um I'm trying to think of like more recent, you know, I know the one behind you, people say a lot about James Bond sort of came out, right? It was like a little skeleton of a game and then it like really really like the code brought it to life. I would say like, you know, it's hard because I usually don't play games like early on. And I usually try to wait till the code is done, but I think Dune is one that continues to like the more I see the code going into it, I I think there's so much more game there. Like I I mean, I did >> I'm going to get flack for that. You got
    57:05
    I'm going to get flack for that. You got
    57:05
    I'm going to get flack for that. You got to pick a non barrels of fun game. >> You know, you know, you know what's
    57:09
    You know, you know, you know what's
    57:09
    You know, you know, you know what's interesting? So like I mean nobody made more fun of Dune launching when it did the way he did it. It wasn't ready. He was nervous about the competition. The game wasn't ready. >> Oh, I know. I was watching your content.
    57:21
    Oh, I know. I was watching your content.
    57:21
    Oh, I know. I was watching your content. Yeah. No. Like, no, but even to the point where like now I'm like, look, like when all is said and done and everything makes its way into it, good luck finding one. You're not going to That's That's what happens. And these cycles happen. And you know, I I do think it's interesting that all these products come out so unfinished is is they're naming to the point of like name me another industry where like they can release completely unfinished products for such a long period of time and charge this much money, you'd be hardressed. I mean, >> yeah, video games is like the only thing
    57:57
    yeah, video games is like the only thing
    57:57
    yeah, video games is like the only thing I can think of. >> Bucks though, but a $60 video game
    58:00
    Bucks though, but a $60 video game
    58:00
    Bucks though, but a $60 video game unfinished, >> right? Oops. I don't Right. Like I've
    58:02
    right? Oops. I don't Right. Like I've
    58:02
    right? Oops. I don't Right. Like I've It's like spending buying lunch and for the family or something. Oops. It's not $13,000. >> Yeah. So, but for the most part, a lot
    58:11
    Yeah. So, but for the most part, a lot
    58:11
    Yeah. So, but for the most part, a lot of these companies are getting better at at release code. Um Sonic's going to be pretty code complete. I think Transformers is going to be pretty far along. I think Fallout >> I'm looking forward to seeing
    58:22
    I'm looking forward to seeing
    58:22
    I'm looking forward to seeing Transformers and Fallout. I think Stern's going to have a really banger of an end of the year. like they did the like they did the community or the the arcade and and operator fan service at the beginning with Star Wars and and Pokemon, but now I feel like the creative titles are coming towards the end of the year. But >> so I've heard from someone over there
    58:40
    so I've heard from someone over there
    58:40
    so I've heard from someone over there that I know well and he's like just the next two are going to >> George Gomez, right? George Gomez is
    58:46
    George Gomez, right? George Gomez is
    58:46
    George Gomez, right? George Gomez is like Canada, let me tell you. >> I trust this person because this
    58:50
    I trust this person because this
    58:50
    I trust this person because this person's very like honest about when Stern does have a hit and when they don't. and they were like, "Transformers, the next two stuff, they they can't tell me the titles, but they'll be like, "The next two come are going to be bangers." So, >> well, I hope that's true. Yeah, me too.
    59:04
    well, I hope that's true. Yeah, me too.
    59:04
    well, I hope that's true. Yeah, me too. I mean, that's part of the fun of the hobby, right? Is the like the buildup to the reveal, the game coming out, first time you can find it, whether it's on location or going to a media event or whatever. Like, it the pinball community is awesome when it's at its like best. >> It's more fun to cover great games like
    59:22
    It's more fun to cover great games like
    59:22
    It's more fun to cover great games like this. Yeah, >> I think certain people think that I
    59:25
    I think certain people think that I
    59:25
    I think certain people think that I thrive off of like negativity. It's not true at all. I get more subscribers, more listeners when I'm positive. When the games are good, more people come to my show to hear not just my thoughts on it, but to share their enthusiasm for it. If if games are if we just kept getting like John Wick and Avatars, like I would lose a 100 subscribers. >> I like Avatar. I'm in the minority.
    59:51
    I like Avatar. I'm in the minority.
    59:51
    I like Avatar. I'm in the minority. I mean, those lower play fields, man. Like, what? Who who who tested those? And I just saw that Mark announced at Pantastic that he scrubbed his first Whitewood and started over again and now it's much better. It's like good, good, cuz I walked up to the Whitewood on Avatar and been like, "Yo, man, >> we got to we got to talk here. We got to
    60:11
    we got to we got to talk here. We got to
    60:12
    we got to we got to talk here. We got to talk about the crab. >> He's lower like Yeah. Like I don't know.
    60:17
    He's lower like Yeah. Like I don't know.
    60:17
    He's lower like Yeah. Like I don't know. >> Fair enough. game, but
    60:18
    Fair enough. game, but
    60:18
    Fair enough. game, but >> beautiful game, but like a little
    60:20
    beautiful game, but like a little
    60:20
    beautiful game, but like a little soulless like there's too much going on that you just can't connect with and nobody's >> as as a first offering of Mark because
    60:26
    as as a first offering of Mark because
    60:26
    as as a first offering of Mark because Mark Seiden came from doing uh I believe uh Metroid was his like homebrew which was what got him onto JJP's roster. As a first game, how would you rate it? >> Like knowing that this was this person's
    60:38
    Like knowing that this was this person's
    60:38
    Like knowing that this was this person's entrance into the into the pinball world? >> Yeah. No, I just feel bad that they I
    60:44
    Yeah. No, I just feel bad that they I
    60:44
    Yeah. No, I just feel bad that they I feel bad. I think the theme was destined to fail to begin with because I just think Avatar culturally like people are just so exhausted by it. Like >> that's so true.
    60:53
    that's so true.
    60:53
    that's so true. >> Has anyone even seen the last movie?
    60:55
    Has anyone even seen the last movie?
    60:55
    Has anyone even seen the last movie? Like I haven't even spoken or like heard someone speak of it like anywhere. Like no one's been like yo bro like never like >> I mean it's made billions of dollars so
    61:03
    I mean it's made billions of dollars so
    61:03
    I mean it's made billions of dollars so someone's clearly watching it but uh yeah. >> Yeah. It's but you know I think um as a
    61:10
    Yeah. It's but you know I think um as a
    61:10
    Yeah. It's but you know I think um as a first offering I'm I'm trying to think like I don't know. I just I think Avatar was a pretty empty game and and and what I mean by that is I don't I don't know it it's based mostly in Avatar the sequel right the way of water but it's not called that like it's this weird sort of like the first two films mixed together there just isn't a moment in it where like it does something wow and I think Jersey Jack game should always have a wow factor above and beyond and look >> that's like JJP's kind of mo is the the
    61:42
    that's like JJP's kind of mo is the the
    61:42
    that's like JJP's kind of mo is the the flat ashiness of it. And I mean, I almost mean that literally with their RGB, but like but you know, there's a production quality vibe to their games, whether it be their animation, their, you know, art packages, the just they, you know, they're expensive games for a reason. >> The UV lighting on Avatar was like that
    61:59
    The UV lighting on Avatar was like that
    61:59
    The UV lighting on Avatar was like that that was like the biggest marketing joke, right? The gimmick. >> You could barely see it to work. It
    62:05
    You could barely see it to work. It
    62:05
    You could barely see it to work. It couldn't get to work. and and and once you saw like they had to bring in extra UV lighting during the marketing materials to make it look more impactful and again that that that whole UV thing has been tried so many times in pinball unsuccessfully and it's just >> I think there should have been more like
    62:22
    I think there should have been more like
    62:22
    I think there should have been more like of a Hallelujah floating upper playfield mountain sort of going on like >> it worked the Stranger Things edition
    62:29
    it worked the Stranger Things edition
    62:29
    it worked the Stranger Things edition kit made it work well that's impressive when you flip to the upside down and the entire playfield is like neon purple like that's that's the one It worked. >> That is one of the greatest wow moments
    62:39
    That is one of the greatest wow moments
    62:39
    That is one of the greatest wow moments in like the last six, seven years of pinball. Like that more games need like a transformative moment that really like stops you in your tracks. Like wow. Like look at it do that. I mean I would even argue like Potter the rotating staircase is cool. Potter shoots amazing. But as a magical pin, I still say like where is the the magical moment where like the ball does something that just blows you away, >> right?
    63:14
    So that's the Cana the Canada metric for
    63:14
    So that's the Cana the Canada metric for a game that's like special needs to have a mindblowing pinball moment. Well, and that's that's that's why I'm a a perpetual hypocrite and I contradict myself because I own Pokemon. >> Well, not every game needs it, but if a
    63:30
    Well, not every game needs it, but if a
    63:30
    Well, not every game needs it, but if a game is going to be a permanent game, let's say that maybe >> the meow with balloon, man, that's the
    63:36
    the meow with balloon, man, that's the
    63:36
    the meow with balloon, man, that's the greatest mech of our our our time. >> But it look, there should be something.
    63:43
    But it look, there should be something.
    63:43
    But it look, there should be something. The hard part is this, and we all know the reason why. because complex stuff breaks and it's it's not easy. And again, Valley Williams was a whole different like monster. They were a mechanical engineering monster that company and none of the modern companies are on that same level. >> Sure. But this is where the cyclical
    64:01
    Sure. But this is where the cyclical
    64:01
    Sure. But this is where the cyclical issue of pinball criticism I think is causing issues cuz people love to bag on games that have problems. So, how are you going to put a mech that has more complexity in it, more risk of having problems, and then risk getting, you know, criticized by the community for having something that's breaking? Like, it's it's a catch 22. >> Yeah.
    64:21
    Yeah.
    64:21
    Yeah. >> Yeah. 100%. And if you're a
    64:23
    Yeah. 100%. And if you're a
    64:23
    Yeah. 100%. And if you're a manufacturer, you're just going to if I can sell this without putting nearly as much, you know, headache in my company, I'm going to do it. Like, and we'll see how much we can get away with um before they stop buying. So, I mean, a lot of these companies have have simplified the offering, but um you know, the boutiques haven't. The boutiques are really loading them up. That's exciting. And I think we're going to just see more of that. And yeah, >> it's it's a really going to be I think
    64:47
    it's it's a really going to be I think
    64:47
    it's it's a really going to be I think it's going to be the best year in pinball we've seen in like a decade. It's just beginning. Get get ready. There's so much coming. >> We just got to lower the prices a little
    64:55
    We just got to lower the prices a little
    64:55
    We just got to lower the prices a little bit and uh then let the pins flow, right? >> Yeah. Got to find a way to make more
    65:00
    Yeah. Got to find a way to make more
    65:00
    Yeah. Got to find a way to make more money. That's the thing. >> That's true. That would that would also
    65:03
    That's true. That would that would also
    65:03
    That's true. That would that would also circumvent that issue. >> Yeah.
    65:06
    Yeah.
    65:06
    Yeah. >> Amazing. All right. Well, chat Senator,
    65:09
    Amazing. All right. Well, chat Senator,
    65:09
    Amazing. All right. Well, chat Senator, we've I've eaten up over an hour of your time. Canada, I just want to say again, thank you so much for coming on here, sharing your thoughts. I know we got a little derailed talking about you as an individual and got into what pinball needs, but honestly, both important conversations and uh yeah, man, I just appreciate you having it with me. >> Yeah. Awesome. And um thank you for
    65:27
    Yeah. Awesome. And um thank you for
    65:27
    Yeah. Awesome. And um thank you for bringing your incredible musical talents to pinball. It is uh it is exciting and I and I think I've heard nothing but amazing things around the sound package for Winchester, right? What else have you worked on? Because >> I've done audio design on Labyrinth now.
    65:44
    I've done audio design on Labyrinth now.
    65:44
    I've done audio design on Labyrinth now. All the audio design on Dune and I did the entire music and audio package on Winchester and I've helped a few uh home brewers with some stuff that's coming out soon that I can't wait for people to see because then I get to do some really weird soundtrack stuff. >> Yeah. And and you know what's coming out
    65:59
    Yeah. And and you know what's coming out
    65:59
    Yeah. And and you know what's coming out after Winchester, right? >> Yeah. Raven 2000.
    66:05
    Yeah. Raven 2000.
    66:05
    Yeah. Raven 2000. >> It's like Black Knight 2000 but with
    66:07
    It's like Black Knight 2000 but with
    66:07
    It's like Black Knight 2000 but with Raven. >> Is it?
    66:10
    Is it?
    66:10
    Is it? >> No.
    66:13
    No.
    66:13
    No. >> Never. I ask you like, is it Never-
    66:15
    Never. I ask you like, is it Never-
    66:15
    Never. I ask you like, is it Never- Ending Story? >> Is it Never Ending Story? You're going
    66:18
    Is it Never Ending Story? You're going
    66:18
    Is it Never Ending Story? You're going to have to ask David. You're going to have to milk him for all that sweet info. >> He keeps he keeps saying like, "I've
    66:23
    He keeps he keeps saying like, "I've
    66:23
    He keeps he keeps saying like, "I've never seen the movie." I don't I think he's lying. I think he's lying. David said that uh at TPF that the IP is something that every single person uh knows and I I would say that that's probably true. >> Okay, that's good. I'm excited. Um well,
    66:38
    Okay, that's good. I'm excited. Um well,
    66:38
    Okay, that's good. I'm excited. Um well, look, thank you so much for having me on and and we'll do this anytime you want. This was fun. >> Sweet, man. I would love to have you
    66:43
    Sweet, man. I would love to have you
    66:43
    Sweet, man. I would love to have you back on. Appreciate that. Chad, this is your last chance. If you want to give Chris any kind of questions, you want a shout out. I know I haven't a lot of the commentary in the chat weren't really questions. It was just sparking community debate about just what we were talking about, which I think is neat. It's a welcome change from what we normally do. Like normally chat's like, "Ask this, ask that." But instead, they were just flowing along with us while we're talking [ __ ] Um, >> cool.
    67:05
    cool.
    67:05
    cool. >> Yeah.
    67:07
    Yeah.
    67:07
    Yeah. Johnny Twlap says, "Weekend at Bernie is the next barrel's a fun game." Maybe >> that's it. Maybe
    67:14
    that's it. Maybe
    67:14
    that's it. Maybe >> the most popular pinball title on the
    67:16
    the most popular pinball title on the
    67:16
    the most popular pinball title on the planet. Yeah. Um, okay, cool. Well, you know what we do? we go try to find a channel and raid it and drop some pinball followers on there to keep the flow going. Uh, so we're going to go do that. We're going to go raid somebody and give them some pinball followers. In the meantime, if you don't already follow or are on Canada's Patreon, like I feel like I shouldn't have to plug one of the most famous pin influencers in pinball, but here we are. Please go check out Chris's stuff. You can watch it on Facebook for free if you catch it. Uh, he does his live broadcast on there. You can also be part of the Patreon if you want to help contribute to that. And uh keep keep the unfiltered commentary flowing, >> Chris.
    67:54
    Chris.
    67:54
    Chris. >> Awesome.
    67:55
    Awesome.
    67:55
    Awesome. >> All praise the great pyramid.
    67:57
    All praise the great pyramid.
    67:57
    All praise the great pyramid. >> Yeah.
    67:59
    Yeah.
    67:59
    Yeah. >> Amazing. Have a good one, everybody. Does your life lack purpose? Have you wondered is there anything more? Join the cult of pinball.
    68:30
    The great pyramid accepts all into the cult of the great order. I am Dr. Cornelius, imperturer and acolyte of the great pyramid. Join us on an everending quest to spread the joy of pinball.
    68:50
    Have you just received your great creation kit?