Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality Boy oh boy, talking about fan layouts last week I sure as hell am a fan of you listeners for tuning in to the pinball show This is episode 30, I am Zach Minney along with my co-host Dennis Creasel Dennis, how's your fan doing today? It's okay Are you a fan of me? I don't know What do you mean you don't know? I don't know Is the jury still out, you're still thinking? I don't really consume your content. Well, you don't really. Outside of this, what content do you generate? There used to be a YouTube show called Straight Down the Middle. Are you a fan of my style? No, not really. My tone? No. Well, you're much more passionate about pinball than I am. You can't buy this kind of passion, Dennis. No, the passion is real. People think that you just are pretending to love pinball. and like, well, you must be a really good faker if that's the case. I'm knowledgeable. I didn't say you were knowledgeable. You should because I am. You have passion. That's not the same as knowing anything. If I was a fruit, I'd be a passion fruit. Yeah, that's probably it. That was the juices flowing out. Yeah, I heard it. It's gross. Don't make that sound. So we had a lot of discussion this last week on social media and our messenger about the great fan layout debate. Now, I am here to say, Dennis Creasel, that I'm conceding to that discussion from episode 29, and you, in fact, are correct. The Avengers Infinity Quest is not a fan layout. You're right, and I was wrong on the whole fan layout Avengers thing. See? Yeah. Wow. Okay. I guess we can move on. Or maybe we can. I don't want to talk about fan layouts anymore. We don't have to talk about it much. But it did create a nice discussion piece in our TPN Discord thread, did it not? It created an active one. And you even got, I even felt it, you got even a little heated in there again. I, yeah, probably. I received more messages this week, listener, about, boy, you really pissed off Dennis last week, or boy, you really had him going this week. I think people like hearing you flared up a bit. It depends. I mean, there was someone that they were on the wrong website. They were on our RSS splitting website and tried to. Apparently, I didn't have the comments disabled there. But I did have someone try and leave a comment there that did call me a big baby. So they didn't all agree with me or enjoy the – no, I've been called whiny before. So it happens. Some of it's just how my voice sounds and some of it is. Yeah, I was getting kind of annoyed. It was a lot of fun. I think we finally came up with an agreeable term to use now, a definition, if you will, for a pinball fan layout. And the good thing about that discussion last week is that it did help create some discussion and change, for history's sake, in pinball. It helped change to create a better term for it because the term was faulty. That's why I was digging in. I was wrong. And I kind of knew that initially I was wrong. because of the third flipper and crossing over the fan layout with shot pattern. I get it, but I dug in once I heard some of the descriptions that you gave for that just because it is what it is, and that didn't settle well with me. I merely gave you one of many variants of what people have used as a definition, and it's not as solid as what I necessarily subscribe to, And that's the case where people might see shades of gray in an Italian bottom, for example. That was a good point. Or middle pop pinball I know was one I've had pushback on because I wrote about and basically gave a definition and not everyone likes my definition. And in this case, there have been a number of people that have given definitions and some – it's not all as clear cut as – now, I might be very rigid with how I apply the term, but that doesn't mean I expect everyone else to be that rigid. My only issue in the case of Avengers Infinity Quest was you were clearly going against like any common definition in terms of how that layout is interpreted. So now that's not to say that there weren't anyone that agreed with you. In fact, the baby guy, the guy who called me a baby, said that it is a fan layout. So he agreed with you. He thought it was a fan layout. I don't understand how – if you really understood any of the broadly used terms historically, how you could arrive at that. But there are others like you that did write about that. I was merely stretching because, full disclosure, whenever we were discussing it, I totally blanked and forgot about that inner loop. Well, I had to assume so because while now you're talking about how good the discussion was and that different people kind of gave better ways to try and encapsulate what we think of as a fan and what we think of as a variant from a fan or totally not a fan. Fan-ish. Yeah, fan-ish or modified fan is another expression I've heard others use that I really like. But said it, you did. And correct you were. What did I say to one of our, somebody that messaged you and I, I said something to the degree of pioneers aren't always loved. I had a lot of messages this week. See what happens? Emails into EGP, messenger messages, public comments, private comments. Yeah. It was a nightmare. So, yeah, us pinball pioneers must roll on. And there's something about a moss and rolling stuff. Last thing before we get into the correspondence and news section, I walked outside today and major shrinkage happened. Fall is among us. A changing of the season, a changing of the tides. We've got a lot of pinball stuff happening here in the fall, September to remember, maybe October too. But do you like fall Carl Weathers? Yeah, I hate the heat, actually. Summer is my least favorite time of year. Oh, I love the heat. I'm getting sad because it's getting colder. I don't like cold Carl Weathers. Your boy does better with a little space heater by him while he's editing videos. I guess if you enjoy the power, Bill, more power to you. Fall being among us means only one thing to me, and it's the most important thing of the year. Pumpkin spice. Oh, no. No, Karen. It's not pumpkin spice. Do you like pumpkin spice? Do you go get your cappuccino pumpkin pie? No, I'll eat pumpkin pie, and that is essentially the limit of my pumpkin tolerance. I will take out a DQ pumpkin pie blizzard. I've never had that. Mighty tasty. I recommend. But no, it's the season of chili. It's among us. That's true. Do you like chili? Yeah, but I can't. A lot of people like it really spicy. Don't tell me you're a burger guy. A what? Burgoo? Do you know burgoo? Burgoo? No, I don't know what that means. Really? Okay. No, I've never heard that word. Burgoo. Burgoo is a – Burgoo is a – What is that, a spice? No, it's a type of soup-ish. It's like a mix between vegetable soup and chili kind of thing, burgoo. I think it's a thing. Okay. Unless it's just my hick town that has that. Well, I know. I've never heard of it. No, I like – I mean, I like to eat chili, and I don't believe in chili in the summer. I think it's inappropriate, so. You think it's inappropriate? Yeah. It's like, it's like, um, you're like, oh gosh, it's 7 p.m. and you go out and get pancakes. It's like, there's some things you just don't do. Ah, like ice cream in the winter. How dare you? Right. Well, I have an exception on that one, but I do understand people that have that rule. Yeah. You're probably the, God, nothing you can eat is normal. So it's probably like an all white bean chili or some bullshit like that. What? I, I don't think I, why are you judging the color of the beans? because you eat shit like black licorice and figs. That's true. Everybody's getting hungry right now thinking about chili. Is chili a soup, Dennis? No, I think it's a sauce. Oh, God. It's a meat and chili, some sort of chili peppers in a sauce. And beans are optional, but I would always get it with beans, but you don't technically have to have them. I'm over here biting my tongue and pinching myself so that I don't dive in there. It is a soup, chili soup. Does it have noodles? It doesn't. I mean, it's not a requirement. You're allowed to add pretty much anything. As long as it has meat and chili spices in it, I think it counts as a chili. Okay. I think it's a soup. I like my chili a little thinner. Now, I knew someone who, a family that I used to go over when I was a kid, and they did make their chili like a soup. But most of the chilies in this area are very, like, they're fork thick. You wouldn't choose to use a spoon. No. I mean, I like that, but that ain't chili. So I've seen chili with the consistency of soup, but most of the chilies I'm familiar with are much more with the consistency of spaghetti sauce. So that's why I classify it as a sauce. Yeah, I like it thinner with a little spaghetti noodle. Beans to meat ratio has got to be pretty good. I don't want all beans. Don't cheapen out. I don't mean throw all the beans in there. I need some ground beef as well. What's the best complement to chili soup? There's only one right answer. Cornbread. That would be incorrect. In Kansas, you only have chili with cornbread. Anything else is an abomination. Really? No, I made that up. But it is the most common side that we have in the area for it. I think the correct answer to chili compliment is a PB&J. Oh, that sounds horrible. Oh, God, no. You dip it in there. Don't give me none of that grape jelly bullshit. Strawberry jam only. I see the frost building on the blades of grass outside. the cold, crisp air. Chili season is among us. And you guys know what tickles my pickle. It's a little song. Waiting for the chili to boil. Carry that bowl into my arms. That's where it belongs in my belly, baby. I'm feeling better. Waiting for the chili to boil. No? Waiting for the chili to boil? Rendition from Waiting for a Star to Fall? Do you know what song I'm going to sing? Yes. Boy meets girl. It's a great song. It's time for TPN Industry News. Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Jersey Jack Pinball was at it again this last week, posting a short teaser video on social media. It points to October 2020 as the release date for Jersey Jack's, quote, next chart-topping hit. It appears that things have been delayed again after a rumored September release for Guns N' Roses. This set off the usual grumbling on Pinside, but the excitement around this title continues to be strong. With other manufacturers like Stern and Deep Root making big strides in September, it's likely that the spotlight belongs to Jersey Jack in October. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg. The Black Knight takes a bow and the Avengers assemble. Hey everyone, Craig here again, the pinball show's Stern News Correspondent. Yes, after almost two years in production, Stern is sounding last call for their Black Knight Sword of Rage for all that won in on the third installment of Steve Ritchie's classic, Black Knight Trilogy. Starting from its extremely successful Williams-made Black Knight pinball in 1980, which sold over 13,000 units and later giving rise to its successor, Black Knight 2000, almost 10 years later in 1989, Ritchie helmed the third and final Black Knight Sword of Rage to much fanfare in 2019, where it currently sits at a respectable 32 on the Pinside Top 100. Get them while you can. And don't look now, but the Avengers Infinity Quest games are already being assembled, shipped, and seen on the Stern Facebook page. It seems Oversea Orders and LEs are first off the line, with domestic pros and premiums soon to follow. And with Christmas season right around the corner, but COVID still in play, the only question left is, Will Stern fill their Avengers orders to eager customers before Santa's sleigh bells can be heard up above? Zack and Dennis, we shall wait and see. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. I reached out to programmer Joe Schober, who informed me of the Oktoberfest code update, version 20.09.19. got some updates and improvements to help the game boot faster, new light shows, new call-outs, along with the ability to have lock switch adjustments and more. And the team is polishing up the Hot Wheels code in response to all the great streams, thanks to the IFPA Hot Wheels Challenge. Since there aren't any shows going on currently, they've been getting a lot of feedback from the owners and streamers. Joe also informed me that they are hard at work on the next titles and that there's some fun stuff on the design board. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosner. You guys heard it from the correspondents. Always nice to hear from them. Keith Elwin was interviewed on the Super Awesome Pinball Show this last week. Is it still in your queue, Mr. Creasel? No, I'm almost all the way caught up, so I've heard it. Very, very good interview. I reached out to Christian Line and said, are you the one doing those questions? Because I caught myself a couple of times thinking, damn, that was a good question. Well, but it could have been Franchi's questions or it could have been – they had Jeff Parsons on, right? Yeah, that's what I was asking. They had guests right in. Maybe we should – maybe Christian shouldn't get all the credit. Which is why I messaged to ask him if he was the one that came up with the questions. Did he take all the credit? No, of course. Christian's too humble to take credit for it all, but I know a Dr. Pink question when I hear it. Oh, you know him well, huh? He orders all his new pinballs from you. You asshole. I brought it up because I heard it on the show and I heard he said my favorite thing that he's going to order from Cointake and I was like that's my answer and I hadn't remembered and then I heard the sponsorship and I was like oh that would make sense I'll get you Melissa and your little Chris too oh that would be funny if you if you flipping out sponsored Cointake which then sponsored Super Awesome my mind is blown I wonder what sort of deal you can get Cointake on a bill oh that's gonna happen i'm jotting that down now okay i'm gonna call hey melissa yeah yeah me uh-huh no just give me a second before you hang up i'm wanting to know what a what a sponsorship deal would look like he's like well you want me to sponsor your show no no no no i want to sponsor yes i want you to try this it could be the unifying thing this hobby needs it could be the solution to 2020 that's good stuff shout out to coin taker we'll talk about some of the details of that i don't want to get into it too far just go listen to the interview yourself because it was very well done but i did unbox the flipping out avengers infinity quest pro two nights ago. The one that could have been my pro. Did Cointaker get you a brow? I didn't bother calling him because I was like, my heart was already in the rubbish bin. I did unbox it. Nothing fancy, nothing special. Didn't do an unboxing video. It was kind of therapeutic. That's atypical for you. You didn't do a drunk, blindfolded slap fest in costume? No. I up to my ears and editing right now So it was one in the morning and I was like bone coming tomorrow I just need to unbox this damn thing It did unbox with code version 0 Oh, okay. So I don't know the relevance to that compared to Elwynn's previous releases. I think they were in the lower nines, if I'm not mistaken. Viewers, listeners, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they were. .90. I have a lot of thoughts about Avengers that we'll get into, but some of the things from the interview that perked my interest, Keith Elwin told us the one- to two-sentence synopsis of what you're trying to do in this game, which I like hearing. I like hearing from promos. I like hearing from streams. This is what we need. He said the Black Order has the Infinity Stones, Dennis, and they're taking them to Thanos. The Avengers must stop them first. Now, that's a basic story premise. That's good. Yeah, it sounds like what you would expect from a comic book storyline. Now, through playing it, I've noticed that these Infinity Stones are each different. You get your reality stone and your power gem and all of the different gems or stones, and they each have their own specific power-up once you get them. That's about as deep as I go, and then I'm like, oh, my God, am I Star Wars-ing it over here? So a lot of cool things on this game. Keith Elwin did say that Captain Marvel ramp on the Premium LE, that little helix. I don't even know what shape that is. Is that like a helix? Why am I keep thinking helix? It's not an upside-down ramp. It's like a sideway ramp. It goes up on its side. It's not a barrel roll. Do a barrel roll. So regardless, he said that ramp was kind of an engineering nightmare because to keep it low bomb-wise and materials-wise, he thought the vendor that created those wire forms was going to freak out. But he said the engineer that he works with is really, really, really good at finding efficient ways to create things like that. So it works really well, but he said it wasn't the easiest to develop. I found that interesting. Yeah, that is. Yeah. I remember hearing that part, and I thought, I don't know how hard it is to do little tricks like the inversion. I know the wire forms are kind of a pain in the ass to make. And I think there was a portion of the interview where they noted that a lot of the cost on the wire forms is actually related to how many bins you put in them. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Thank you for bringing that up. Which was new news to me. Yeah, and speaking of cost, this is something that I haven't heard confirmed. I could be wrong. but Keith Elwin did say in the interview that every design team essentially gets the same bill of materials or gets the same budget. I always assumed that was the case. One would think logically that would be the case but sometimes it doesn't seem that way and people have questioned, does Steve Ritchie, since he's been there so long and he's an icon, does he get a little bit more wiggle room? Does the new guy get less and he has to prove himself? The thing that I've wondered is, does the bomb, because I think the bomb ultimately really comes down to the parts going into the game, was there a relationship between what your bomb was and the license costs? I've always wondered the same. And so that was what I didn't know, is whether or not, because sometimes I've wondered if getting something like Star Wars means that you have less to spend on mechs because the license is so pricey. Or harder, yeah. It does kind of seem that way. Damn it. Right, and I think some of it could be, though, obviously, that it's a what's above the play field versus what's below the play field on the bomb. So maybe a good case in point might be Stranger Things, where they clearly, on every single play field, chose to put on UV ink. But if you don't have the UV kit, you're not going to appreciate that amount of money. But that must have gone on the bomb because it's in all the machines. Yeah, I would love to know more about the development of a pinball. I wish they had videos or everything they hold so close. I would be less interested. I would like to actually know the exact dollar amount of the bomb. What's your guess? Oh, gosh. I don't have one. I've never thought about what the dollar amount is. Because I don't have a context in terms of how much everything in an actual pinball machine costs to build. I don't have a good sense ever. So I don't know if it's a $3,000 thing at this point. or are they putting them together for $2,000 and selling them for six? I don't know. Yeah, and are we including salaries and wages? I wouldn't in BOM. I wouldn't in BOM. But obviously, that has to be part of what they need in terms of their break-even calculation. But they must know. I mean, it has to be tracked. I'm with you. I want to know if licensing goes into BOM or not. Yeah, I'd like a confirmation on that. But I'd also just like to know, like, what, in terms of the amount of money they're allowed to spend on the parts to build the machine, just the parts, I'd love to know that. I would as well. Email into the pinballnetwork at gmail.com if you're willing to leak your bomb. Oh. Don't let your bomb show. I don't want bomb leaks. I do. Do you? Think about how much fun we could have with trying to be like, hey, look, okay, so they get to put in $1,500 worth of parts in a pinball machine. And then we try and, you know, be like, okay, so how much do you think the Subway was? Was that $600? Does that include the Lifty spinning disc? The lefty spinny. That's a technical term, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. I would like to know. It would be fun. Because the bomb – It's like choose your own adventure. Build your own pinball machine with the – it's like dollars. Even if we don't know how much all the parts were, just the fun of trying to figure out where did all the money go. Yeah, and you know that a stern bomb is going to be significantly different than a spooky bomb just because of, I would guess, the amount that they're buying in quantity. If you're buying wire forms, it's going to be cheaper to buy 2,000 of one unit of wire form than it is 50. There's a difference between the – I mean what you're saying isn't necessarily that the bomb would be different, though I don't imagine both companies are using the exact same bomb, but rather how far the bomb dollar can go because Stern is getting a better deal just because of the sheer volume economy of scale on their purchases of parts. That's going to affect stuff as well. Because, yeah, no, I'm sure that it costs Stern a lot less to do Spike 2 boards than what Spooky has to drop on P3 Rock because they're having to go to an outside vendor. They're not buying nearly the volume that Stern would if Stern did buy P3 Rocks. So that's the bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. What about the Potbelly? You ever been to a Potbelly Sandwiches? No. There is one nearby, but I've never been in it. Oh, Dennis, I would kill for one near me. ham and cheese. Anyway, the pot belly comes from the reference that Keith Elwin had on the Super Awesome Pinball Show when discussing that ramp, the shape of that ramp. Yeah, so I guess the banana ramp is out. Pot belly ramp is in. He said, yeah, he was designing it and he thought there's no way I could really hit that and not be super clunky and then it came to him. An aha moment. Maybe I'd do a little curve there. So that it gets up that ramp easier. I want a ramp that is a perfectly round pot belly. That's right. Do you know what that's a reference for? I don't know what that is. Pulp Fiction. Where? Bruce Willis' girlfriend. There's a whole thing where she's talking about how she wanted to eat a whole bunch of food because she wanted to have a perfectly round pot belly. Tarantino films are way too narrative-based. It's an odd scene in a host of odd scenes. Jeez, that Tarantino. I did watch Leo again during Django Unchained. Oh, my God. The man is just, he's an icon. The Potbelly Ramp. So I guess that's what we're calling it now. I kind of like the term better than Banana Ramp, being that the Ellie is so yellow and all. Yeah, but it does look like a banana. I don't see the Potbelly as much, because it's not a perfectly round Potbelly. Keith Elwin learned that when it comes to trying to design pinball machines at distance apart from your co-workers and your collaborators that it's really tough to do the audio development he said that's one of the that was the most difficult part in designing this was trying to work with jerry thompson remotely because he said usually jerry would come in he would fly in frequently during these things but with this covid stuff he couldn't he said that was the hardest thing because there's no quick turnaround whenever people are that far apart and integrating it right into a machine so that you can see it. I often forget that, even back with David Field. They weren't local with the audio. Keith Elwin also talked about some of the limitations in development of Avengers Infinity Quest, one being people ask always when you have a big theme like this, why didn't you get the films? We want to see Robert Downey Jr. rolling his eyes in the Iron Man mask. he talked about it it would and he's right it would be a licensing nightmare trying to get all those triple a actors in on a game like this plus just like with jurassic park and and to an extent iron maiden the comic theming makes it more timeless films become dated this hopefully will not be dated as much it kind of stands as its own yeah but i mean on who cares on the timeless thing like they're only going to make the game for like most four years so yeah i from from a from a new inbox sales standpoint i don't think timeless matters the where it could matter would be in the case of like what they did with spiderman and spiderman vault where it's like they think they want to go back to the well maybe not sticking with the movies means that it's easier like they don't have to do they don't feel like oh well we can't do toby mcguire anymore no one even remembers who that guy is and well now we have to pay for all this new art so i could see that like on a vault but only down the line on a vault or something otherwise films i mean what does stern care about what like the used value of the game is that's a good point i agree comic theming is more timeless but it's like a so what sort of thing it's like are people going to hate game of thrones in 10 years because they don't remember the show anymore and it wasn't themed off the books i mean i just don't think it's well we've seen we've seen walking dead certainly not be as prevalent right now well the thing with walking dead is you look at the game and you don't see the TV show in the game. It's only on the side art. That's it. And a couple plastics, I think. That's it. Everything else is generic zombie. So it's already themed timelessly. A big old AMC logo on the Translight. There's nothing wrong with that. Brand new, baby. Initially, I would think having the end game films and all of the characters, the true actors, all of the sounds, all of the assets, everything, would make it even better, and it would sell even better, and it would be even bigger. But I stopped myself, Dennis, and thought, well, could it really sell better than it is selling now? Theoretically, yes, but… I think the question – to me, the question would be, would it sell so much better that it would more than pay for the additional license costs? Of course, yes. Essentially, that is the question. I don't think you could ever say yes. And who knows? I don't know. And here's what I think. I think the thing is that they could have gone and done the movie license, but I don't think they ever would have spent what would have been needed to spend to lock in enough of the voices and actors and everything. You know, it's like I blame Hobbit for all this, you know. Of course you do. Well, because Hobbit came in and it had all this movie asset integration, and because so much of it was like CG with the dragon and stuff, it feels really packed and really integrated because it is. And now that's like the standard everyone who wants all this movie stuff in pinball is looking to. And I don't know if it was just because they didn't need to do a lot with the actors in Hobbit or if it was just a cheaper license. But that apparently is nigh impossible for most pinball manufacturers to do. It's almost like the philosophical question, if Hulk 2D2 falls in a forest, do you hear him? Beep boop, beep boop. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Another limitation was that they couldn't change the animation art. Yeah, that was interesting. Though it sounded like that it ended up working out fine for how they wanted to do it stylistically. Yeah, and it shows. It shows very well. And, of course, he had to talk about that gauntlet glove in the back and people saying it doesn't look as detailed as they would have liked. And I love hearing things like this. Keith Elwin said, quote, the framework is there, end quote. Meaning, if somebody has screws and you can take it out, that's what that means. If somebody wants to modify their gauntlet, they can. They need to be practiced safe modding. Oh, they will. Trust me. That thing is begging for a mod. I've already Googled the size of gauntlets to see what will fit back there. We shall wait and see. So my impressions on the game, Dennis, really quickly. Unboxed it. This was one of the only times, and I say it in an upcoming Straight Down the Middle video, one of the only times that I can think of recently that I kind of stopped myself because unboxing games at this point is pretty normal for me, pretty mundane at times. I just want to get them set up and play. But I stopped myself whenever I pulled this thing out of the box because the cabinet was striking. And again, listener, this was the pro model of Stern Pinball's Avengers Infinity Quest. The art just kind of stopped me and made me fangirl out and pull my phone out and take a picture. And I didn't go screaming and fainting. But damn, that is a pretty, pretty beautiful pinball machine. But how was the print job on the play field? Print job was fine. Okay. Looked good. Because I figured they were sending them to all their – this is me being cynical. I was like, okay, so they're only sending zero to one to each dealer. They'll probably – if they had some bad run playfields, maybe they'll just throw them in ours. That's so skeptical. What do you think is going to happen? So you said 0.9 on the code. So what do you think we're waiting for up to 1.0? that i'm glad you brought that up because as i was playing this game there's a lot of code in here i didn't see any i'm not a competitive player i didn't see any big hiccups at all all the modes there hell i hit a mini wizard mode that was fucking phenomenal it was so much fun uh i forgot that it might have been the soul gym or something where you only have a certain number of flips to get all your shots to get that gym but you can add flips if you're hitting correct shots or you if you drain, then you'll lose a handful of flips. That was super novel, super fun. But the lighting during like the bonus, the lighting during different modes and moments, it's all there. So I'm actually super excited that this is 0.90 code really, because this is going to get an even bigger full treatment over the next handful of months. I did recall in the Super Awesome Pinball Show interview, Keith did mention that there's still, I believe integrating some more sound call outs and such. So that's going to be part of that 0.9 to 1.0. I also heard from some of my Stern sources that defeat animations are coming. Oh, kind of like the Deadpool defeat animations. Defeat. If I was going to say something about the animations, about the details, sure. And I'm just assuming it's coming, but they could flesh out a lot more sparklies in there, the animations and sound. I see what you mean. Within the modes, like when you're starting one of your stone modes, there's not a whole lot going on screen-wise for the spectator to look at. So I think they could add to that. But whenever the last two Elwynn games came out, Iron Maiden, everybody knows how I felt on that, Dennis. The theme didn't do anything for me, so it didn't really pull me in. Fantastic pin, I would like to have an LE, but it's never going to pull me in. Like a theme, I'm a fan of wood. Then Jurassic Park came out, and I thought, oh, I'm a big Jurassic Park fan. And I got Keith Elwin here, wow. But it was more of a universe-based Jurassic Park, not really film-based. so the artwork wasn fantastic on the LE to me So I didn really This is the first time Dennis Creasel and listener that I opened up a Keith Elwin pin and I thought holy shit it clicks automatically It just clicks. It shoots. You finally had your click moment. Yes. Did Keith Elwin just imprint me? I mean he he did comment about how his layout wasn't a fan layout and you agree with him now so maybe that's that was the final unifying force hey Keith watch that uh banana ramp there bud I thought you were calling pot well belly no perfectly around pot well belly ramp watch that pot belly ramp it's not as pervy that way though but uh it plays Dennis I can't wait to you specifically play this game because it plays nothing like his other two games. I think you alluded to it last episode where you said Iron Maiden and Jurassic Park had some similar types of feel to them, just layout-wise and materials-wise. Wasn't it you that said that? Yeah, I said something along those lines, yeah. Throw that out the window. This thing is so much different than the other two. Most of your shots, like a fan layout, are in the back of that game, and you feel like you have room to breathe. These recent Keithow ones, we've had a big loop. We've had a big third flipper. This third flipper on Avengers doesn't feel like it's part of a rail or something. It doesn't really feel like it's in the way or anything like that. It is back further. It feels back further. And all the shots are pretty much in the back. and the layout, the paths of the ball on this game are unlike any that I've played before. The cool shit that happens in Judge Dredd, minus all of the boring shit, it's in this game. Orbits turn into ramps. You don't expect the ball to go where it goes on this. Left orbit goes into the pops and you're like, oh, inner orbit goes up a ramp and crosses the play field? Oh, I wasn't expecting that at all. Right orbit can go up. It is a blast to shoot. And I will say this. It's early, but I will say for me, this is easily Keith Elwin's greatest layout. Easily for me. It's more my style. Nice. And I like that on this, sorry, I'll keep geeking out here, but Iron Maiden had a great loop. because of that little ramp in the back that kind of slowed the ball down a little bit so that you can continually hit that over and over. Jurassic Park, I'm negative about the loop on Jurassic Park because it's too tight, too fast. I'm not saying it's hard to hit, but when you do hit it successfully, you can't really continuously hit it consistently because it's not designed that way. It's just too fast. On this, it would be the same speed as that Jurassic Park inner loop, but he doesn't bother you because if I have a loop I want to be able to repeat it right generally speaking um on this he says okay design wise this would this would whip around too quick and it wouldn't be fun to try to shoot that continuously so we will instead instead of a loop it loops orbits and goes up a ramp to a habit trail perfectly done the pot belly ramp works with perfection I can't think of a shot even the I thought the pro was going to be a toss away here, Dennis. I thought they're selling 5-1 on the premiums to pros. Ellie's sellout. You even said yourself the premium looks like the version to have with all of the features. I'm backtracking a little bit. I'm not saying it's not because I still think it will be, but the pro is a damn good game. For anybody that was worried about missing out on some of the features of the premium, if you don't want to spend that much on a game, I'm telling you right now, Dennis, the Pro is completely great. There's no worry. That little loop with the spinner feeds perfect back to the right orbit and the right flipper. It feels really good. And the one, sorry, see, I love pinball. The one thing that caught me that I did not see on the pictures that I did not notice on the stream was one of the big differentiating factors on the premium LE of Avengers. is that subway, right? You see it. You physically see that subway. Well, I didn't know that the Pro has those same windows cut out, and it has a subfloor in it, albeit not as deep as the subway, but it still has a subfloor in it, so you get that depth perception and lighting effects. You still get it, which I think was a brilliant, brilliant move whenever they were designing the Pro model. So that was a nice little feature as well. I was wrong about, I think I told you that tower shot I thought would have been kind of the peak point or the meaty point of that right flipper. That was incorrect. That can be a rather tight, difficult shot, as it should be. And the very target opto system makes a little more sense. Okay. So, now, if you're hitting it hard, it's going to get up there every time. But it definitely makes more sense there. I don't know, man. At .90 code, they had a bunch of moments already in this game that I loved playing. I loved seeing. I'm even more excited about getting my premium LE now. Even more excited. This pulled me in a lot quicker than Turtles did out of the box. And even probably... Turtles is pretty far along development-wise. I don't know. This is going to be a good one. Sorry for that, Dennis. Whew. Okay. I feel better. Waiting for my vendors, I'll leave it dry. Carry your banana ramp into my arms. Sorry, it's a potbelly. Deep Root Pinball is supposed to be revealing today? Yep, today. I had someone write and ask if we were delaying the podcast. We don't wait for a Deep Root. The Deep Root waits for us. No, they don't seem to be waiting for us. To be fair, they've been waiting a couple of years now. Well, that's true. So we're supposed to get a reveal today. If you're listening on Monday, if you're listening on Tuesday, you've seen it. We sound like idiots. I don't know what they're revealing. We record on Sundays. I don't know what they're revealing. I mean, here's my 30,000-foot prediction. Oh. Okay. If they only show Raza, the public response to the event will be negative. I could see me being wrong if there's some innovation in there that they have not disclosed. So I don't mean the hammer test. I think the hammer test is really attractive to people, but they've already talked it up. It needs to be a surprise. So unless there's some mind-blowing innovation, if they only show the finalized version of Raza, this is kind of a flop. If they show more than one game, there's potential for them to actually, I guess, like win a media cycle here. because that'll be a whole lot of stuff to talk about because I think there's just not enough change that can happen to Raza as a game that's going to compel people to speak about it more than they already did back when they saw the prototype. So that's what I think it comes down to. If they've got more than one game ready to show, that's going to generate a lot of interest. If they've got only Raza, they're behind the eight ball unless there's some innovative thing here that is just going to knock socks off people. I think it's a really good take and it's one that I agree with. I couldn't have said it better. I don't know what they would have to show to make this. Yeah, and I can't say because I don't know what people – if it's innovation, it should be something that I can't think of. If they came out and announced their – which you love – their 80s-based license, I think you could grab a lot of people and probably create more purchases for your Raza because people are like, holy shit, they've got that theme? Okay, we're in. We're good. It would create more trust or maybe even more loyalty to the brand. But I don't see that happening. I think Raza will come out if I was making a prediction. There may be some tweaks and some improvements that we're not accustomed to in pinball that we are interested and excited to see in application in our homes or locations. But just coming out with Raza and likely still not having manufacturing set up. Dennis, they don't ship these damn games when they announce. They don't ship in September any Razas. how do they continue to survive well that comes down to how much money they've they're able to continue investing in uh but i you know i'm really curious about just how long term do they want to run the company without it being profitable because you know normally it's it's years before a company turns a profit but it's been years so they still got the zip where people that they're to get games too yeah uh yeah it's a yeah i i don't know i mean it again it comes down to the initial investment pool and just what they have in terms of resources available and if they've been investing the funding why i mean i think a lot of people is just an assumption that they're just have been throwing money down the drain while they because they don't have a game out yet now a lot of that money may be well invested in terms of things that are actually going to come to fruition in a meaningful way uh but at some stage the the problem is there's a fatigue that happens with pinball folk i mean if you listen to like the craig bobby midweek edition shows about his new inbox purchase adventure and look at you know i've spoken before about the fickleness of the new inbox buyer and how they change and and then it's like it's the same like the 80s thing was revealed i don't actually think that gets more people to buy raza i think if anything it makes people decide that they want to hold their money for the new shiny that they're hearing about rather than investing in raza but the situation for deep root is such that so there are a lot of people that are already throwing money at avengers at this point the guns and roses reveal it has to be imminent from jersey jack at this stage and that's going to take more dollars off that some of these dollars are gone once they get taken off the table they don't not everyone can buy three games a year so i will say based on the license they have I'm a buyer and I haven't even seen the pin. So if that comes to fruition, I will most certainly be a deep root owner. Isn't that crazy? What is wrong with you? It's different than how I would buy. What is wrong with me? I mean, there are a lot of people like that. Show us what you got, Bobby Pinball. I'm even tired of saying that. I'm tired of hearing myself say that. Well, it's just, I mean, the fatigue is, that's not just on the new in box people. The fatigue is real. The reveals were supposed to happen so much longer ago. I mean, over a year. I hope to be wrong. Originally, we were expecting five games in 2019. We're going to sell more games in the first year than all the manufacturers sell combined. I'm still really curious about the innovations and stuff, but just talking about the reaction of the public, given the positive reaction on Avengers, given the palpable excitement that exists for the Jersey Jack announcement. They're just – it's not a great – they really got to put up quite a bit. There's not a lot of oxygen right now in the room is the issue. But can they really delay even more? I mean it would be a missed deadline. They can't push it off again. Plus we know all the people are there already. Yes, they are. We do have Chris Chandler, TPN correspondent there, but he's hush-hush. Oh, he couldn't give us anything early? No. Chris. Chris. Guess what, Chandler? You continue with your hush-hush, you're going to be fired. Off the record, on the QT and very hush-hush. Do you know what that's from? I do not. L.A. Confidential. Yeah, that movie was shit. I've got to get you better movies, man. You listed out all of your 80s dream themes, and I thought, oh, poor Dennis. That was not my 80s dream themes. That list you saw was my list of bad 80s movies. You didn't list Willow, so I'll give you some credit there. Oh, Willow is so past its prime. All that was stuff. That was just me listing 80s things that could be made into pinball machines that no one would be suggesting. Well, I'm glad you listed Ishtar. Exactly. Ishtar was one of the biggest financial failures of the 80s. That's why I listed it. Oh, my God. LA Confidential won Academy Awards, so you can shut the hell up. Okay. I'm not saying it's bad. You did. You said that it was bad. You did. You just said it was bad. It's no Pulp Fiction. I already did quotes from Pulp Fiction. I know you did. And you didn't even know those, so maybe you need to rewatch it. When it comes to Deep Root Pinball, I haven't been very open about this because I respect confidentiality within the industry. But I have known for a year or two a lot about Deep Root Pinball and a lot about what they're doing. Well, I do not know, so it will all be new to me. And a lot of it does excite me. There are some things when it comes to what they're doing with the cabinet, the machine itself, that visually is stunning. so if they continue with you know what i've seen and heard then they'll they'll have a really cool product but okay good i'm just not sure coming out of the gate with raza is the way to do it i think that kind of is what it is at this stage yeah absolutely i think they know that too they do but if they're not shipping and they're not ready and we're gonna have to wait till 2021 until you can buy a game oh gosh no they respectfully robert they need they need to be able to ship Hang it up. That's true for any pinball manufacturer. At this point, come on, guys. Don't be doing – ideally, you shouldn't be doing announcements unless you're going to be able to ship, in my view, within the month. I don't even want to do two months anymore. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of it. If Deep Root would have done all that they're doing and did not make any public announcements or statements or anything, do you think they'd be in a better position or a worse position than they are now? Better. I think so too Jersey Jack pinball is close to announcement I was wrong I said it was going to be revealed this last week Hey I was wrong as well I should have emailed them I should have contacted former TPS co-host Ken Cromwell and I did think about doing this because I'm sure I have this pool and said hey Ken do you think you could go ahead and reveal this week so I could be right but I thought he just wouldn't answer me so I didn't bother Honestly, there's podcasters out there that think that Stern Pinball doesn't reveal stuff just because they don't want to make the podcaster right. So it's not far-fetched. I wouldn't go that far. Ken won't leak anything to me, though. So it's like, hey, sir, he won't even be like, you know, this confidentially, he won't tell me anything. So I'm sure I ain't getting him to change dates just for, oh, Dennis asked, let's do this. He's got such influence in the hobby. That Creasel, he's so hot right now. I don't think I've ever gotten a revealed date prediction right ever. Ever. I don't think I have. They did have a new teaser, though, and it said there's something. It was really nicely done with neons. Chart-topping hit. Chart-topping hit. Arriving in Octibre. It's GNR, guys. Quit saying it's Toy Story. Are people still saying it? Yes. Yes, they are. It's like, guys, every hint they drop ties to it being a music pin. Buzz, Woody, you must have a little patience Well, the chart could mean Box office No, that would be a box office hit They don't call it a chart Chart topping is a music term Magnum, Blue Steel They're all the same I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here I admitted the piano key necktie It's GNR The man has only one look for Christ's sake Blue Steel Ferrari, La Tigra They're the same face Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! I invented the piano key next time I invented it What have you done Derek Nothing you done nothing nothing waiting for the gnar drop now if jjp drops toy story first it was solely to fuck me over that the only excuse at this point i'm gonna feel like it's a conspiracy it has to be gnar everything is gnar i'm gonna double down ken don't do this to me man don't do this to me if toy story comes out I'm going to get a tattoo of Buzz Lightyear on my wiener, and I'm going to quit my podcast. And I'll give away all my Patreon dollars back. Give them all back. Is it that time again? It is that time. It's time for a little pinball show. It's Pinball Market Trends. Yes, there it is. Trending out this week is still Avengers Infinity Quest. Oh. No reason, really. It's just a badass game that I'm having a blast with. And it seems to be making everybody else sell nearly any machine they have in their collection to try to get on the list for it. Pros went out. LEs are about to go out, I think, this week. Listener, LEs, this week. Then back to the pros and to the premiums until Christmas. But turning up is Avengers Infinity Quest because... Because Craig Bobby, it was his choice. Craig Bobby did choose that, didn't he? Mm-hmm. He's fickle. We'll see. Yeah, I'm glad you guys deposited it. Hopefully it'll be non-transferable or else once GNR reveals, he'll probably change his mind again. Like, I've always wanted to go to the jungle. And then, well, wait, no, he might shift it to Razzo. I don't know. It seems like Avengers Infinity Quest, oftentimes people go to sell their games to get the new shiny. But this one, even more so, because trending down this week is J.J.P.'s Pirates of the Caribbean. Oh, wait a minute. Have I ever even trended that down? You've heard it here, folks. I know. I know. Yeah, trending down is Pirates of the Caribbean. You're seeing them start to flood the marketplace. Even the guys that have been holding out new in box with a rumor that they could create another run of Pirates of the Caribbean at some point. Sell, sell, sell. Yep. sell sell sells what everybody's doing that and trending down is monster poor monsters this should be in the hall of trending down at this point monsters yeah oh monsters pro and le in particular man it's like every fourth app on pin side marketplace it's really sad poor monsters shoots like a dream board It shows like a dream. Also training down is Monster Bash Remakes. Oh! In my opinion, the least fun of the three remakes. I would agree. It's amazing to see all of these games that were so cherished go down in flames. Honestly, I'm personally, finally, that's what I'm thinking, finally. Regarding Monster Bash? We should not, come on, we've had so much technological advancement, innovation time to develop we should not be having 90s games still sit at the top lists it should be modern games that should be we should be able to beat the old games turning off this week's dennis crazel i'm finally wearing off on him and he is a fan of everything shiny no i'm not it's not about it being shiny it's just a simple fact of like people weren't disputing that 80s games were better than 70s games and 90s games were better than 80s games And then there was this, oh, nothing's been as good as Williams, and it seems like it's finally shifting. That people are finally like, no, I like what I'm seeing from JJP. I like what I'm seeing from Stern, and they're willing to chip away at some of those sacred cows that are, I think, overly – I mean, they were very good from the – I mean, Williams was at the top of its game in the 90s, but, I mean, it's nostalgia that holds a lot of that up. It's not actually – Attack still kind of holds up. It does. It's my favorite game of the 90s, but I can't say in terms of there are on-par layouts available on games post-2012 that have a rule set that is going to get you more involved from a homeowner's perspective. I can still see the argument for a top ten on Attack and Medieval. I can still see that. I think they're too samey for them both to be on the list. I think Medieval should have fallen a long time ago because Attack is the better variant. But that's just my opinion. I know some people prefer the toys on Medieval. But Monster Bash, no. I've never been a huge fan of Monster Bash. I have no interest in ever owning one. It's pretty, but damn. Yeah, it is. Also trending down this week is the Banana Ramp. R.I.P. Potbelly. So long. PBR. Amazing grace. How sweet the sound See, I'm going to serenade you. Banana ramp, you're dead to me. Pop belly ramp is where it's at now. Because the goat said so. No, not that goat. The real goat. The pinball goat. We'll go back to training up. I'm feeling perky. Training up this week is Jimmy. No Jimmy? Nope. Guy down the street. Jimmy with 86 pixels is developing an interactive backboard display for Twilight Zone. This thing is cool, Dennis. You need to go on Pin's side. He's developing it. Jimmy was the individual who's helped with so many titles that we know. Things like he's worked with Spooky Pinball. He's worked with Highway on Alien. He's worked with American Pinball frequently. He has worked with the Cosmic Carnival people. He's worked with Kingpin. So he's worked on it. Multimorphic. So training up to Jimmy and 86pixels for development of what I think is just the beginning of one of the coolest mods in recent pinball history. It's basically an LCD screen that goes on the backboard there, and it's coded to interact with the game. So during certain modes, the whole backboard. I get it. That sounds neat. I reached out to Jimmy and asked about details and whether or not he's going to be doing more Bally Williams and whether he would even consider the newer Sterns. And he said yes, yes, and yes. So stay tuned for that. Also trending out this week is a topper. Oh, baby. Not just any topper. The topper of all toppers. This is the king of toppers. Wait a minute. That's me. Did someone dethrone me? You son of a bitch. Lior has made a hobbit topper. I don't know if you've seen this, Dennis. It is a thing. It's mythical. No, I've never seen it. People only whisper the presence of it. That's because it's secretly amazing. So to the Lior Hobbit topper that was developed, it was a big tease. He came out and teased it to everybody and said, I know you're going to love this. I know you want to lick on this. But you can't because it's not for sale. It's not for you. Taking a page from Stern's playbook there, are you, Lior? So he's not selling this thing. Not selling it. I should be trending it down, shouldn't I? But I'll trend it up because it's the most magnificent topper that I have ever seen in me life. Damn. How does one get one of those toppers? I think he's making like three. We're his friends. Am I a friend of Lehor? Hmm. I do have a hobbit. My black arrow is soaring with the announcement of this topper. Then he said it wasn't for sale, and it ricocheted off that smog and fell to the ground. I need this topper. No one will dethrone the king! And for all of you that have your bitcoins ready, here's this week's... Bills of the Week! Bye, bye, bye! Oh, this segment is so unhinged. It's just whatever comes out of my mouth. Bill of the Week this week is a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles LE. with extras. My buddy Joe Fox up in Middletown, Delaware is selling an Oboe TMNT LE 8800, which is a fair price for a Turtles LE. This game is still pretty damn hot. This game is a lot of fun. It is awesome. But this particular one has those extras, which makes it the deal of the week. There are no glider issues. The diverter issue has been addressed. Joe followed the stern service order, so this thing's tip-top shape, He even added some Loctite on the diverter screw, so you're not going to have any problems with that. Hell, the coin door, the speaker panel, the shooter housing, all has been matched with that green powder coat. And if that wasn't enough, ladies and gentlemen, he has installed not the standard Penn Stadium, but the Omegas Prime. The Omegas. He's got plastic protectors, radioactive flashers, blah, blah, blah. No clear-code issues. No gameplay issues. This is better than out of the box. It's $8,800 or best offer with all of the extras. He's leaving money on the table, but this is a pin to buy, buy, buy! Buy, buy, buy! And maybe it was trending down, but this week's deal of the week is also a Monster Bash. Classic edition. Only 15 plays on it. It's mint. it's by caliber 2 on Pennside right outside of Asbury Park there's Ashbury a little place called Asbury we got no food we got no jobs our pets heads are falling off okay just calm down what the hell are we doing here Harry we gotta get out of this town yeah and go where where are we gonna go I'll tell you where someplace warm A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen. I don't know, Lloyd. The French are assholes. Name that reference, Dennis. Totally redeemed yourself. New Jersey, caliber 2, Monster Bash Classic Edition, $5,300. What's stunning about this? It is a deal of the week. But what is stunning is remove yourself from this current hobby. Take yourself back three, four, five years and tell your previous self that you could get a brand new monster bash for $5,300. Buy, buy, buy! You'd be waiting for that shit to fall. Because you wouldn't believe it. $5,300. Firm. Don't. Nope. I'm a firm hater. Don't give this person $5,300. Give them $5,290. And then walk away with a smile knowing they loosened up quite a bit. A little soft reboot there. Okay, we'll stick to the market trends themes this week. Your deals of the... How in the fuck do you sleep at night? It's a monster. It's a monsters right outside of Woodstock, Georgia. Woodstock. I wonder if that's where the concert took place. They're selling a Monsters Pro Hockey 6 Hockey in Georgia? Hockey 6 is selling a Monsters Pro She's a beauty dot dot dot Just added this one to the list And having to sell for personal Re-ons Now this thing Is $6,000 Get the flip out of here $6,000 I don't give a shit if it's Oboe or not You want an Oboe price? $4,000 You will take it and you will enjoy it $6,000 oboe from monsters pro news flash the damn thing is six thousand dollars new this isn't an le we're talking about this is a pro now okay so it's got some powder coat got lollipop rails shaker motor plastic protectors shooter plate and the backbox speakers upgrade i'll give you 200 bucks for that stuff tops six thousand dollars the kicker though and what makes it a special deal of the who the hell do you think you are is that he or she says i would consider a trade for a big buck hunter look i'm not shitting on that game but wow you really know how to pick them don't you then it then it then it turns to a i'm i'm worried here goes on to say the gentleman that shopped this out did one heck of a job first class one of a kind now why did he have to shop this out then Don't tell me this is a routed Munsters for 6K. If you want a Munsters and you don't give a shit about money, then go ahead and buy this one. And listener, before we close the show down, I know it is damn tough to match that pinball market trend segment, but I still want to hear from you. Submit your viewer trend today. Have fun with it. I need some community market trenders out there. Where are my trenders at, people? It'll be fine. And that was your darling bastard child pinball market trends. That sounded like a politician, Howard Dean. All right, Dennis, let's wrap it up this week for episode 30 of the Pinball Show. Where can people find you in between? As email, eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com over at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast for the other show that I host. You can message that and I'll get it. Terrific. and the pinball network at gmail.com. And if you'd like to be a part of that Discord channel, just saying, submit your off-the-record pinball podcast, start a stream up, let us know you're doing that. We'd love to review your stuff and potentially add you to the crew. If you're ready to buy a brand-new pinball machine like that Avengers or that new game from JJP, get on the list. Get your pre-order, get your toppers, get your Escalera at Flip N Out Pinball. 812-457-9711 or quicker responses email Zach Z-A-C-H at flip the letter N out pinball dot com I also like texts texts are good just don't send me pics of your banana ramp and we'll be fine shout out to coin taker alright check out all the podcasts this week on TPN they're all doing great I think we're due for another final round which I'm always looking forward to Chronicles is still brewing we need a Silver Ball Stories here and the Puppet Pals. But other than that, all the streams are going great. We've got some new stuff that Dennis and I are brewing in the back rooms that you're going to love to hear very soon. That's coming. And until next week, for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zachariah Mini. And always remember to have a perfectly round potbelly ramp. Oh, that damn potbelly. Dennis, you are the best. Always appreciate these shows, buddy. So much so that I'm going to serenade your ass on the way out here. Always practice some safe pinball and... Trying to catch your heart is like trying to catch a star. So many people love you, crazy. That must be what you are. Where are our shirts? I'm still trying to find an artist. I have all the ideas are there, and even the composition of the artwork, it's just I need an artist. I thought about writing a Franchi to see if he could do a shirt for me that says ****. Oh, thank you. Oh, man. Oh, ****. That's so good. Oh, now that is a deep callback. Yes. Deep callback there. Oh, fuck yes. God, that was good. We'll see you next week. Thank you.