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Ep 76: Let's talk Rush

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 23m·analyzed·Jan 8, 2022
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Deep dive on Rush pinball: reception, design analysis, and theme integration strategy.

Summary

Josh Roop and Scott Larson discuss Stern's newly announced Rush pinball machine, analyzing its reception, design similarities to prior Borg games, and the importance of theme integration over theme alone. They explore licensing challenges, compare Rush favorably to Led Zeppelin and other recent Stern releases, and discuss market dynamics around 'dad rock' themes and demographic purchasing power.

Key Claims

  • Rush (Premium/LE) were sold out before the game was even officially announced

    high confidence · Josh and Scott discussing availability; Scott mentions someone's LE became available due to cancellation

  • Rush is tracking to multiple production runs (three to four runs already planned)

    high confidence · Josh: 'We're looking three, four runs down the road already on Rush'

  • Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson were directly involved in negotiations and had input on bringing in Ed Robertson to direct the game

    high confidence · Josh citing Stern Insider interview: 'They said, we want to bring in Ed Robertson because he knows pinball... Jody Dankberg called saying they won't make this unless you're helping direct'

  • Rush layout is more similar to X-Men than to Iron Maiden

    medium confidence · Scott detailed analysis of pop bumper placement, scoop position, middle shot, upper flipper shot being X-Men comparisons

  • Borg has been credited on pinball games since 1992 (30 years of history)

    high confidence · Josh: 'Pinball Database, he has credits back to 1992. So it's 30 years?'

  • Stern conducts market analysis to determine theme viability and production levels

    high confidence · Josh citing Josh Sharpe perspective on topper pricing and volume: 'They do market analysis. So they know these things.'

  • The streaming reveal was performed by elite players (Timmy, Ray Day, and Jack) at world-class level

    high confidence · Scott: 'These are top top tier players some of the best in the world'

  • Led Zeppelin licensing involved more hoops and restrictions due to band member deaths and estate complexity

    medium confidence · Josh and Scott discussing licensing: 'Led Zeppelin... you have people that passed away, you have estates, you have four five six hoops to jump through'

  • Great musicians don't always translate to great pinball machines

Notable Quotes

  • “Theme is very, very important. It's not the only thing. It's theme integration.”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Josh revises his earlier 'Secret Sauce' theory, establishing a more nuanced framework for analyzing modern pinball design philosophy

  • “these games are love letters to the things that they are building them for”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Articulates the core design philosophy that separates successful licensed games from cookie-cutter implementations

  • “it feels like it fell short at fall... it doesn't have that soul thing that makes you connect with it on an emotional level”

    Scott Larson @ discussing Queen comparison — Critique of soulless theme integration; establishes emotional connection as measurable design metric

  • “you can't judge it by the first five games would be my suggestion... don't judge it fully until you put your name on the high score”

    Scott Larson @ late episode — Epistemological stance on evaluating new machines; echoes Jeff Rivera's approach

  • “The squeaky wheel seems to always direct the course of the way the cart's going”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Observation about how vocal Facebook/Pinside minorities may create false narrative of community sentiment vs. actual sales data

  • “you have to strap yourself in... you earning every shot”

    Scott Larson @ discussing Borg's game design — Characterizes Borg's design philosophy as demanding and difficult

  • “iron maiden sounds like rush got drunk and decided to play metal”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Paraphrasing Jeff Rivera's critique; illustrates that even 'difficult' themes can succeed through design excellence

  • “the people that own these or that are going for Rush, that are going for Led Zeppelin are usually seasoned professionals... later on in their lives... they have a little more in their bank account”

Entities

Josh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonZach MenypersonNicole MenypersonBorgpersonKeith ElwinpersonGeddy LeepersonAlex Lifeson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Rush LEs sold out before official announcement; multiple production runs (3-4) already confirmed despite game only recently revealed

    high · Josh: 'The LEs were pretty much gone before it was even announced. They were gone... this game's pretty much sold out their first couple runs. And we're looking three, four runs down the road already on Rush.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Shift from theme-as-primary-differentiator to theme-integration-as-quality-metric; designers now expected to create 'love letters' with deep fan appreciation details

    high · Josh revising earlier 'Secret Sauce' theory: 'Theme is very, very important. It's not the only thing. It's theme integration.' And: 'These games are love letters to the things that they are building them for.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Rush's success attributed to direct band involvement (Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson) and retention of pinball expert Ed Robertson to direct; contrasts with Led Zeppelin's restrictive licensing due to estate complexity

    high · Josh on Stern Insider interview: 'Geddy Lee... Alex Lifeson... said, we want to bring in Ed Robertson because he knows pinball... Jody Dankberg... they won't make this unless you're helping direct'

  • ?

    community_signal: Vocal negative commentary on Facebook and Pinside about Rush ('another dad rock band') contradicts strong sales performance; suggests minority opinion controls public discourse

    high · Josh: 'There's a lot of chatter on Facebook... The squeaky wheel seems to always direct the course... But it seems like this thing has come out and people are very pleased... The orders are going like through the roof'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.251

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast this is episode 76 i am josh roop with me my co captain as always scott larson and scott we just wrapped up an awesome recording session with triple drain and we figured why not we it's early for us it was like midnight for them but we figured why don't we jump on and kind of give some of our thoughts hey this is this is bonus time Yeah. Actually, ironically, I didn't realize how early it was. I actually got up at five this morning.
0:38
Well, you said you're mentally running on fumes like, well, he must have worked early this morning or something. Well, because I worked overnight, but I was very lucky in that unusual. But I finished up early and I got to bed around 11 o'clock and then I didn't get a call to go back until five. So I actually got six hours. So actually, that's pretty good. so you know it's been a while since we've been on and even just talking news or anything like that last episode we did the christmas episode which by the way thank you for everyone that uh reached out they said they appreciated the show um we had a really amazing response to it i didn't realize we would have so many people reaching out uh even people loved the music i thought that the the punk christmas music might not like it's funny but there was a lot of people that loved it and even knew the songs i was like oh wow cool um and then we had you know we've heard the rush rumor for a little bit now and then we had an announcement and now it looks like rush is a reality and we haven't even talked we didn't even really talk rumors because last time we talked was like the beginning december well we've talked about about it and we've speculated I think appropriately that it was in line for Borg. We didn't know. So I think that seemed to be more of confirmed more than rumors. We didn't know anything about the art. We didn't know anything about the code and we didn't know anything about the layout. We I hadn't seen any leaked pictures or anything like that. And so it was, it was fun to speculate, but yes, the, the owl is out of the bag. It definitely is rush. and and if you want one of these rushes um you and you're not on the list now get in line yeah it is time and we recommend zach many and nicole many with flipping out pinball they do all of our stuff we appreciate everything they uh do for us you were having a heck of a time finding an le right scott i i was i actually had resigned to just get a premium um i had asked around a little bit and I wasn't super interested in, in buying an, um, a marked up one. Yeah. So I, I felt that, you know, I could get a, uh, I could get a premium and I could make it good enough. Um, however, when I saw the reveal, I said, uh, I really want an Ellie if I can find one. And so I actually posted a little bit and I had asked Zach a while ago and he said, you know what, you're outside the list but you know there is a list and so uh and i said okay that's fine i'll just get a premium and give me all the all the mods and i'll do my best on it and he messaged me apparently someone decided not to get theirs and so i bought my le from zack and i'm called mini and i also at flipping out pinball and so money's off and i got my first insider kit today uh that i bought i order from them too so i can't figure out which game i want to put it on yet so uh that would be interesting to see uh you know maybe there's some suggestions out there but um zach has always uh has always been very good to us and so we highly recommend uh him and nicole yes and uh for your pinball needs and remember if you want something please let them know because there is uh there is the waiting list for most things they can get almost anything you want but just realize that you should uh it's in your best interest to tell them what you want yes well and um i was listening to final round today and jeff and martin had made an excellent point that i guess i really hadn't processed yet but you know a lot of people complain about wait times in the pinball industry it's not just the pinball industry uh you know they were talking about like yeah everything if If it has a computer chip in it, you're waiting for it. Someone said Bruce Nightingale and his wife were waiting on a bed frame because it had a special feature to it. We went to buy a bed. We went to buy a bed for my daughter today, and we were at Costco, and we asked them. They said, well, this is the time furniture. So just in case you're wondering, Costco has seasons just like anything else. And January is the furniture season in Costco. uh so we i i actually forgot that but i went there and and uh so we were looking at the mattresses and they said actually we usually have them here and you can try them out but because of the shipping shortages so yeah the shipping things are it's a real thing and i'm kind of bummed i uh so my uh my golden girls um hobby is buying uh um ornaments like christmas tree ornaments from hallmark and they're usually super nerdy so uh i got some star wars ones and harry potter ones but i ordered two and they didn't come in so i don't even know if i'm gonna get those so we'll see you'll get them in july when you want exactly again yeah no it's fine actually we didn't even because my wife's shoulder surgery we didn't ever decorate the tree we put it up but we didn't actually decorate it so anyway so i gotta ask you it was announced last friday it was teaser trailer time which we all know that stern always puts out some kind of small teaser to let us know that it was a theme well isn't it tuesday no it was friday last week where they showed just the owl video oh i'll go through the snow and then rush boom right and then tuesday was the actual reveal of the game.

medium confidence · Scott: 'Being great musicians doesn't always translate into a great pinball machine... Led Zeppelin is arguably one of the best bands... we know how that pinball machine turned out'

  • Theme integration is more important than theme alone in modern pinball design

    medium confidence · Josh revising earlier position: 'Theme is very, very important. It's not the only thing. It's theme integration.'

    • Scott Larson @ late episode — Articulates demographic reality behind 'dad rock' theme selections; explains market analysis logic

  • “Stern is first and foremost a business... stern has been in this alive for 20 plus years and they've done this market analysis”

    Scott Larson @ late episode — Defends corporate decision-making against fan speculation; establishes business logic over fandom preferences

  • “I would love to see a fallout boy pinball machine... but it's not going to happen right now... we're finally talking about having a nineties band pinball machine. Nineties guys. That was 30 years ago.”

    Josh Roop @ late episode — Illustrates temporal gap between millennial preferences and current market demographics; explains why generational themes won't appear for decades

    • person
    Ed Robertsonperson
    Jody Dankbergperson
    Neil Peartperson
    Jeff Riveraperson
    Josh Sharpeperson
    Triple Drainorganization
    Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Pinsideorganization
    Rushgame
    Led Zeppelingame
    Iron Maidengame
    X-Mengame
    Godzillagame
    Deadpoolgame
    Star Warsgame

    market_signal: Band/theme selection driven by purchasing demographic (seasoned professionals with disposable income, typically aged 50+); generational themes face 20-30 year lag before viability

    high · Scott: 'The people that own these or that are going for Rush... are usually seasoned professionals... later on in their lives... have a little more in their bank account' and Josh on generational delay: 'we're finally talking about having a nineties band pinball machine. Nineties guys. That was 30 years ago.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Borg established as senior Stern designer with 30+ years history (credits since 1992); Keith Elwin as next tier with ~4 games; significant tenure gap signals Stern's reliance on established designers

    high · Josh on Borg: 'Borg has basically been in pinball forever... one of the elder statesman now of Stern... he's been around for 30 years' vs. Keith Elwin with 'four games'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern employs rigorous market analysis to determine theme selection and production volume; dismisses fan wishlist commentary as uninformed vs. data-driven corporate decisions

    medium · Josh citing Josh Sharpe: 'They do market analysis. So they know these things... there's a reason why these pens with these themes are coming out'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Evidence of designers learning from prior game failures; Deadpool's katana ramp refined from Black Widow's failed shot; suggests iterative design philosophy addressing past mechanical shortcomings

    medium · Josh on Deadpool: 'The katana ramp shot... compared to... the Black Widow shot was terrible... now it's come to one it's that shot now is very fun'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Expert streaming reveals (by world-class players Timmy, Ray Day, Jack) show polished gameplay but cannot be judged as representative of typical player experience; variance between elite and casual play significant

    high · Scott: 'These are top top tier players some of the best in the world... you do have to take these streams with a grain of salt... it looked so butter smooth... you're going to have to get your hands on it'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community comparing Rush to Iron Maiden; hosts argue X-Men is more accurate comparison; indicates early speculation phase before extended play; multiple valid interpretations possible from limited stream data

    medium · Scott: 'I immediately looked at that and said that looks a lot like x-men... why are you comparing it to Iron Maiden?... it obviously has more similarities to x-men'

  • ?

    product_concern: Multiple games (Queen streaming reveal, Led Zeppelin, Star Wars) criticized as feeling 'soulless' or lacking personality despite good code/lighting; indicates risk of theme-code mismatch regardless of licensing quality

    medium · Scott on Queen reveal: 'It didn't feel good... it looks like someone who knows very little about pinball put it together... it didn't it didn't feel good like when you when you looked at it... it's missing that heart'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Broader supply chain issues affecting all industries with computer chips (furniture, electronics, pinball); normalized as expected friction across economy; not pinball-specific phenomenon

    medium · Josh: 'Everything if it has a computer chip in it, you're waiting for it... Furniture... Costco has seasons... shipping shortages... it's a real thing'

    • 6:10
    It's funny because I've been so on the fence of how this was going to be received. We've talked about the winter curse, you know, January time, winter time, first quarter always seems to have a rough time, moving units. So I didn't know how this would go. Rush itself, they are fantastic musicians. I will give them all the credit. I was joking with you yesterday that Neil Peart, God rest his soul, passed away a couple of years ago, was the Josh Sharp of drumming because he's a fantastic drummer.
    6:44
    But he's always in second place. Oh, man. Jason Bonham. Oh, my goodness. Or Buddy Rich. And so. Yeah. OK. But Buddy Rich, you could actually go with Buddy Rich because Neil Peart did a tribute album called Burning for Buddy.
    7:02
    And so he actually is – yeah, he has the ability to do that. But yeah, anyway. But being great musicians doesn't always translate into a great pinball machine. Right. And so that's always my concern. I mean Led Zeppelin is arguably one of the best bands that have ever existed, and we know how that pinball machine turned out. not for the lack of trying you know after after everything's come out to come to light it sounds like with more of a licensing issue and more jumping through hoops than it was anything else at that point yeah and it's challenging too because it depends on yeah how involved the band is or lack of involvement or how cooperative or how uncooperative and i and by the way we don't have any huge inside information on zeppelin but it it does seem to be that they weren't uh i guess the take-home message is it wasn't as open to them as you would like to have for a creative pin yes right well and i made this point on triple drain you know it's it's easier to make a pin and put more depth into it when you have like with rush you had giddy lee you had alex leifson on board they were there in the recording room they have all the rights they're on music it was not hard for them to say do this do that they checked off where in led zeppelin's case you have people that passed away you have estates you have four five six hoops to jump through and it makes it a lot more rough you're spending more time jumping through hoops than you are working on the game i would speculate too that i bet the license was more expensive and i i'm just i'm just guessing because i mean led zeppelin okay i love rush but led zeppelin is a different level it's a different level of of popularity and ultimately popularity means more expensive and we all know that the beatles license was the most expensive they'd had to that point yep so to wrap this back um i was nervous that rush wasn't going to be received well and being there's a lot of chatter on facebook there's a lot of chatter on pin side people the The squeaky wheel seems to always direct the course of the way the cart's going, right? And it's making me nervous that people are being loud. But it seems like this thing has come out and people are very pleased. Well, most people. You look on Facebook and Pinside, not so much. But there's got to be something right when this game's pretty much sold out their first couple runs. And we're looking three, four runs down the road already on Rush. Yes. And the LEs were pretty much gone before it was even announced. They were gone. So basically, sadly, the – okay, it's a blessing and a curse, right? Because you want something that you're interested in to be popular. You want it to be succeeding. I mean you don't want to be like – okay, I've said it before. Watch – if you want to know a documentary that's super interesting and kind of depressing simultaneously, watch The Way of the Puck. Yep. because it is air hockey and it's these super passionate people. Just think of tournament pinball, but equivalent passion for air hockey. And air hockey is, I'm sorry, it is dead. Like there's, it's not the same level of excitement that pinball has. And I watched it at the same time, back to back. I watched that and I watched special when Lytton, it both had the same vibe of this is a dead thing. And I basically just bought an air hockey table and a pinball machine. So it was just weird. But you want that. You want whatever you're passionate about to be that successful because that drives the company's investing money into the product. That drives them to actually elevate the product and make it better and increase the build of material. Yes, the cost goes up, but you're getting a better product. And so if you want an LD, then I would definitely contact your distributor and kind of find out some rumors out there. If you think of games out there, they can't confirm or deny that a game is coming out, but they certainly have interested lists. So contact your distributor. But yes, so if you wanted one, you can still find. We all know that if you want to pay the right amount of money, you can get about whatever you want. So you can still get it. But if you want it for a reasonable price, contact your distributor, contact Zach and Nicole, and say that you're interested in this theme if it ever comes out. Yep. Well, and we did an episode, I want to say a couple months back, and we called it The Secret Sauce. And we talked about how theme was the secret sauce to a pinball machine. And I've decided to backtrack on that. Theme is very, very important. It's not the only thing. It's theme integration. Yes. And looking at, I think it was a brilliant move by Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson in the early negotiations with making a Rush pinball machine. They said, we want to bring in Ed Robertson because he knows pinball.
    12:18
    And if you haven't checked it out yet, go on Stern Insider and listen to the Ed Robertson interview. uh they talked about they he got a call from jody jody jody dankberg and jody was like they won't make this unless if you're helping direct and listening to some of his direction going off about uh song selection being a pinball machine and just some of the how they were able to integrate it makes rush that much more desirable and i think that is for anything now i'm looking at we we just saw the reveal not even the reveal the stream the stream yeah well sorry i'm talking about queen we saw oh yeah and we don't even know how it's going to play we haven't seen code yeah but it's not it it didn't it didn't feel good like when you when you looked at it it looks like someone who knows very little about pinball put it together yes it feels like it fell short at fall you know we're getting to a point in pinball where these are very complex machines they're not even what they were five years ago the code is insane on these and they're almost becoming a love letter to whatever theme it is and do you want your love letter to be a rush pinball machine the way that they have went in and made this just oozing with everything rush. We joked about the time machine being a washing machine, and you're like, dude, they had a washing machine on the stage behind Getty as a joke. And so it seemed appropriate for it to look like a washing machine. And so it's funny because it's little details like that. I'd rather have that than – I hate picking on Led Zeppelin because they're such a good band and I enjoy their stuff. But I feel like Led Zeppelin was a very cookie cutter.
    14:16
    And so I would rather want that level. The code is still good. The code is still very good. And the light show is very good. And I think the theme integration is actually quite good in it. But there wasn't enough to take it to the next level. It's missing that heart.
    14:36
    Yeah. Wow. And we love Steve. I mean, Steve's come on the – but it did feel – I'm not blaming it on the designer. I'm not saying that he sold it all. And again, you're kind of backed into a corner sometimes by licensing constraints. And we've talked about this before. When something comes out and you're like, why did they choose it? They probably didn't choose that. Like that was probably what the licensor told them to do. And so they were definitely more guided with style limitations on Led Zeppelin than other machines. Yeah. And I would argue the same thing with Star Wars, right? I mean, we all know Steve can make a great game. And Star Wars, I think, has the same criticism, that it doesn't feel like – it feels like it hits all of the – it hits the marks, but it has the personality of a Star Wars lunchbox.
    15:40
    Well, I think it's also that suffers from – it's a stop-and-go game stuck in a flow body. yeah so it it seemed a little bit like a disconnect um but you know what to be fair every designer will have the game that doesn't connect as well as they want to yeah but i guess this is this is the case in point look at godzilla right was godzilla a desirable theme how many people did you talk to before god no i'll take you back even more okay you take me back as far you want no no iron maiden i mean okay my the the funniest line before all of these pins came out the funniest line i ever heard was from jeff rivera from the pinball podcast i was hanging out with him and or or no i think he said on his podcast is he said iron maiden sounds like rush got drunk and decided to play metal and he hates both iron maiden and rush and he wanted a lead zeppelin with all of his heart and so you cannot tell me that iron maiden the secret sauce was the theme it was not it was not but it's uh i think that the theme can help elevate it to the next level though iron maiden stood on its own because of Keith Elwin and his excellent design. But for the most part, you can look at Lord of the Rings and a very similar game of Sopranos. But Sopranos is nowhere near as popular as Lord of the Rings because it doesn't have this, the merging of the two. No, I agree. And so I think that's what we're coming down to now is pinball companies need to realize these games are love letters to the things that they are building them for. And you, you either want that gushing with fan appreciation and little juicy nuggets here and there, instead of just artwork on a play field that you can, you can revolve through some songs and stuff like that. So I, I will, I'll share a little bit that my friend who's he's actually one of the, he's the general manager of a, of a Ford store here. Yeah. And I talked to him a little bit about selling cars. And he said, one thing I try to tell my agents is if you feel like you're fooling the customer into buying something that you either don't believe in or if you feel like you're spinning it and so they're getting a bad-ish deal, they can tell. You don't think they can tell, but they can tell. There's something about it that doesn't feel right. And it doesn't hit on every level. And I would argue when you get a machine that is like that, there's something about it. You're not exactly sure what it is, but it just doesn't fire on all cylinders. Well, it almost feels like it's went from professional to amateur. I mean, perfect example. Look at Thunderbirds. Yeah, I would say soulless, though. It doesn't have that soul thing that makes you connect with it on an emotional level. Yeah. So let's talk about – so Rush comes out. People start seeing this for the first time, and I'm kind of baffled at this point of the comparisons.
    19:14
    Borg has been around for 20-plus years, correct? He's been around since the 90s. A long time, yeah. So he's – actually, it's been 30 years. Yeah. No, Borg has basically been in pinball forever. Yes. he's one of the elder statesman now of Stern. It's funny because you look at Borg and he's been around for 30 years and the next seniority is what, Keith Elwin? And he has four games. You know what I'm saying? So even going back to the Data East games, Borg has in Pinball Database, he has credits back to 1992.
    19:50
    So it's 30 years? Congratulations. yeah so so definitely not the the lead but he's he's been around he's been yes and uh like i was saying this on triple train i don't feel like borg's ever been known for easy shooting games it's always been kind of a little on the rougher side i know yeah i'm i'm looking at every single game right here and all of them are butt kickers yeah when you when you think more what do you think of monsters the only outlier but when you think of borg you think of two games you think of iron man and you think of metallica well okay three games i'd say iron man metallica and yeah and those are the ones well okay walking dead i i guess you can any of these games that you're saying out they are not like it's not a fun ride and you have to strap yourself in Yeah you earning every shot Yeah So So thinking of Borg when this comes out and you owned an you owned an x and yeah i played your x-men so i recognize this right off the bat like this is x-men which is fine it's not a big deal okay i would say it's similar to x-men it definitely like from the top down you can definitely the pop bumpers are in the same spot the scoop is in a similar spot you have a shot up the middle which would be similar to uh the magneto shot uh you have the upper flipper shot so there's a lot that you will recognize on this so people start liking this to iron maiden i know you have a different point to this but why no not iron maiden this is like if you're going to say anything is similar to x-men why are you maiden you know what i might not have agreed with this at first but david fix i now understand why people shouldn't have a comment until five years into the hobby because iron maiden is is not close to rush okay i'm gonna tell you why you're wrong on this okay you you tell me why again i'm not i am not saying it is the same as iron maiden okay i'm saying the elements the so a few things which make people say well i do kind of feel a little bit of iron maiden um i would say first and foremost the uh we're just going to call it the washing machine ramp uh the elevation of the washing machine ramp which is very similar to the premium okay and so there is that now i i also know that they have the shot through the bumpers that uh borg has but and he did that with with x-men too and so that's not unheard of that was the gambit shot but um i can see how people would be like well there's the shot through the bumpers on the left side there's that and there's kind of a quick horseshoe type ramp it's not in the same location so i i i certainly am not defending that as much but i can understand vaguely why they said it and there is the diverter on the premium that iron maiden has that goes up and down and there is now it goes to a different area the diverter um like the the diverter went actually uh underneath the playfield in iron maiden but uh the in the borg one there is a diverter that allows it to go back to the um the second or i guess the middle right in lane or the closest the innermost right in lane and so while i am totally not defending that because it obviously has more similarities to x-men i totally get why someone would say well i can kind of see some iron maiden so there's some elements in there right true but you could say you take that same equation you'd be like well there's some elements that are similar to i don't know adam's family there's a shot through the pops with an upper flipper that goes to a ramp that and a side shot well as we know it's a fan layout with three flippers exactly didn't someone say that so yes uh oh my goodness yeah no no okay moving on uh but yeah okay so again i'm not defending it but i can at least say why okay so your next question i immediately looked at that and said that looks a lot like x-men so what was my response when i saw that uh wasn't it like i hope it's not a clunk fest like x-men Yeah, like I was nervous because for some reason and I know there are some people who love X-Men, but I think it's still one of the prettiest games I've ever owned. Yeah, it's good on you. Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. The music was terrible on that. But for some reason, I just had a hard time connecting and enjoying that game because it just felt like I could never personally dial in those shots. well and what's made me funny is every time i came over to your house and we we talk x-men like i don't understand how anyone could own anything but the magneto one like oh yeah how does wolverine controlling the magnet balls make any sense compared to magno magneto controlling them like yeah i i don't it just seems kind of crazy that yeah there was ever like that should have been the only le but um and and really i still think it's one of the prettiest games that you will ever see and honestly let's be honest if you if you've been doing this for three decades and we're comparing it to a game he made 10 years ago yeah it's 10 years ago yeah and so in my opinion what does it really at this point what does it matter well wise they're not going to be the same at all okay i would say that the the one super positive part of this is that i mean designers aren't stupid they know when a game is well received and when and they are they are more intimately aware of the flaws of the game than you are even as the most passionate fan yeah and so if you had the ability to retool a layout that didn't quite make it don't you think you would make it a lot better well case in point look at deadpool yeah shot the the is it the shink yeah it's the uh katana ramp shot well okay no it's uh okay what are they calling that but compared to it was originally done on the first avengers the avengers and that black widow shot was terrible it was hard and it was not fun geez no and now it's come to one it's that shot now is very fun on deadpool because it's like it's it's nerve-wracking because it's like oh but it it feels so satisfying every time you hit it now that is a classic example of taking something that didn't work and making it work yeah and and i i guarantee and they even had like fixes on the um they they had fixes on black widow to fix it uh so yeah it still just didn't uh it still just didn't connect yeah so yeah i i'm trying to find sorry i you're fine you uh you distracted me i'm trying to find the name of that dang dang you josh yeah straight to heck yeah well no and while you're looking that up i mean yeah like i will i will still defend it i mean it's a good layout i still enjoy x-men and or reverse tron whatever floats your boat it was basically a reverse tron yeah and so it would make sense that it would be considered like hey this will be a great game and it just didn't it didn't hit it so but i do i i think the rush look a layout does look good this go around the stream looked great uh i'm glad that timmy and ray day and jack were the ones streaming it um they did an awesome job like i said you do have to take these streams with a grain of salt because these are top top tier players some of the best in the world or the best man did did that look so smooth didn't it yes it looked a butter smooth and like i said it's probably gonna be one of those things you're gonna have to play some games on it you're going to have to get your hands on it and you can't judge it by the first five games would be my my suggestion you can go the jeff rivera route don't judge it fully until you put your name on the high score and i'm i am an avid follower of that um i played trek for the first time uh two days ago i wanted to like shrek and i just i could not get into that either it just felt like it was so samey so well and i i got my high score on the second game and i i we were talking about this in the group chat on slam tilts because there's a lot of people in there and and and i asked them like is there anything else i could have seen and there really wasn't like there's like more modes nope you got it yeah they're like there's a super duper wizard mode that no one ever gets to so like far far away so don't worry about that raymond said that and if the world's number one player said that it's impossible to get to i i you you have to take the glass off to get to get that so if he says that you can take it to the bank that is certified gold right there um but my point being is is is a lot of people want to judge this game already based off of theme and a layout that they think they know and okay however okay in fairness what has the judgment been that it looks just like how i made it well okay no no i'm saying what but they have looked at it though and the orders are going like through the roof that's what makes me chuckle ordering it so how many people have complained on facebook about this like another another dad rock band and it's like okay here's here's one thing and this is uh i will give josh sharp credit for this okay one time in a in a group chat i had mentioned about my frustration with stern uh toppers you know i i buy toppers right i like toppers and so i said why don't they just make a billion of them and sell them for 350 or 450 and you'll still make more money on it by selling with volume than you will by, you know, you'll, you'll get a smaller margin, but you sell it with volume. Yeah. And he said, that's great. The only thing you do not have is any data to back it up. Yep. And he said, they, they, they do market analysis. So they know these things. And so there's a reason why they're doing it the way they do it. And so there's a reason why these pens with these themes are coming out is because they've done the study and they know that they're going to sell. Yep.
    31:00
    So you may, you may love a K-pop, which I think is a band from South Korea or something. Yeah. But yeah, you may love them, but if they put out a K-pop, they've probably done the market analysis to realize they're not going to sell the same amount that they will by making a Led Zeppelin, by making a Rush, by making a Van Halen pin, by, you know, whatever. Well, and let's, let's be honest. Like, I hope I don't offend anyone with this comment, but the people that own these or that are going for Rush, that are going for Led Zeppelin are usually seasoned professionals. They're people that are later on in their lives. Kids are out of the house. They have a little more in their bank account. They're not going to make, I graduated in 05. I've been out of high school for 15 years. I'm in my mid thirties. I've got kids at home. let's be honest i am not the demographic be going for because how many kids how many people at my age have extra cash they're willing to throw out a pinball machine for let's let's say one of the bands from the 2000s let's say they they were coming out with a a fallout creed creed no let's do fallout boy because that's more my generation okay it's still a bigger band uh how many fallout boys do you think they would honestly sell and i know there's people are going to be screaming it from the rooftops on facebook and pin side saying oh that would be a fantastic theme but honestly you're not the people that have the money right now don't care about fallout boy i don't i think i know it though they have the i'm on fire that song yep that's the song and then they also did the only song i know and by the way i have zero interest and for reference i graduated 30 years ago this year see and so you've got to understand that stern is first and foremost a business yeah and you think you you think that you understand marketing and all the stuff but you don't understand that stern has been in this alive for 20 plus years and they've done this market analysis i'm not defending their decision to make a rust pinball machine i am not saying I'm not saying they're selling. Well, no, I agree. But what I'm saying is, is like, I would love to see a fallout boy pinball machine. I would love to see a some 41 pinball machine, but you're, it's not going to happen right now. Not until at least 20 years from now, we're, we're finally talking about having a nineties band pinball machine. Nineties guys. That was 30 years ago. Yep. 30 plus years ago. Yeah. Okay. So, so here now we've, We've gone over. Rush deserves to be there. And we're excited for it. So tell me. You're excited for it. Okay. I am excited for it. Okay. But you're at least excited enough for it. Yeah. Okay. I'll put it this way. I'm excited that there is so much love to this game. There's so much put into this game that comes from a person that knows Rush. Yeah. And by the way, hit me up because I got an LE. Oh, yeah. So I got Nellie, and now I just need all the other translates. I need the pro and the premium. So let me know.
    34:16
    Okay, so what is your take on the look? So let's just talk about the art. What do you think about the art? I like the artwork.
    34:28
    The only place that I could see that they fell short, I felt like they did fall a little short with the faces in the middle of the play field. Okay. And the reason being, I don't know the band from the 70s. I know Geddy Lee's classic look of the round purplish tinted glasses, which they kind of did. His hair's not as long. Like you look at Alex Lifeson, his hair short now. They went with more of a classic 70s look, which is great. But honestly, Neil Peart in the middle looks more like Lemmy from Motorhead. Yeah. However, ironically, he did look very similar to that around 2112. So this is very the only thing that's different on this. Alex and Neil are very 2112 esque Getty with the soul patch. He didn't have the soul patch until probably the 90s. Yeah. So but does it change your idea at all when this was the artist chimed in on this and said, this is actually we went through with rush and this is what they wanted yeah and i think that's awesome if that's what they wanted yeah and so so that was that was their uh take and so yeah it was um yeah so uh michael barnard i'm hoping i'm saying that correctly uh but yeah so he's the one who said actually rush had a lot of input in this and they said we'll actually do this a little bit so this is the look that rush wanted to present i want to point out something i really like michael did uh i don't know if it's because he did it or if it was the direction that he was made uh one of the back glasses i want to say it's the premium uh it has like the owl and then it has like that's so the owl is front and center in the pro okay is it that one there's one where it's almost like they mixed and mashed like three different albums okay so So in the premium, you have the owl flying off to the right. You have Running Up the Middle, which is an homage to Moving Pictures, their biggest album. And then you have, man, I know that Ed said this, what these are, but it's like a totem thing. So it's running. So anyway, yes, that's the premium. But it's like taking three different albums and meshing them well together with a different background from a different album as well.
    36:57
    When I did my research on Rush Live, one of their things is they had like really intricate intros. If you looked at like their most recent concert before Neil passed away, it was like 2018 in Brazil or something like that. And it was seriously like a five-minute montage. Maybe it wasn't an hour, a two-minute montage of all their album artwork alive. It was moving. It was doing different things. It was goofy. And I felt like that encapsulated. This artwork did a fantastic job at it. I love the owl. I think the owl just looks amazing on this artwork. Yeah, they did a good job. So very similar to Iron Maiden, where the art direction from Iron Maiden was an artist named Derek Riggs. And we all know that Zombie Yeti did it. However, Zombie Yeti was able to stay true to Derek Riggs in a very similar thing, but take his own take on it. And so it actually fit very well with the imagery of Iron Maiden. I would say that this is probably a little more surprising because it's more of a comic book-y feel. And even hardcore Rush fans are probably not going to be as familiar with the comic book version of them. But I think they did a great job of theme-appropriate things. I feel like it was very well balanced. Yeah. um i'm happy with the art i know there's people have complained that really a ton on it i don't know why i don't know it's one of those it's first world problems right you're right why why did the artwork look like look like okay however in in fairness uh the attention to this art versus the attention to the art on led zeppelin yes like you can by far miles and leaps and bounds you can tell Well, this was an investment, a labor of love. So you may or may not like that style, but you can tell it definitely was a labor of love. Yes. And that may that's part of because, like I said, I love love letters to whatever thing you're talking about. I said, I can't tell you of any Rush album I've sat down from beginning to finish and actually finished it. But I can usually pick out a good handful of their songs. I can tell you from knowing the top scraping of Rush's surface, this is definitely hitting that love letter on all cylinders. The one thing that will also reassure people is with Iron Maiden, the challenge was is that I definitely know the difference between all the songs. But I also understand if someone who is not a fan of Iron Maiden can say the music just drove me crazy. I mean, that was Martin Robbins. He sold his Iron Maiden LE because he's like, after a while, the music just drove him crazy because it is that high tempo. It's going 100 miles an hour. And every song has a very similar vibe. Yep. You will be surprised by how nuanced and how different Rush sounds. Yep. Because they are – so prog rock, progressive rock, it tends to be more of – I don't – like an orchestral approach or something that is not – it's not basic. And really, most rock bands are, you know, it's the stereotype, right? Sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And if you watch behind the light of the stage, it was Paul Stanley or Gene Simmons because Rush opened for Kiss a lot. And he said at the end of the show, you know, we were back at the hotel and we had, you know, your typical after show party with, you know, girls and all that kind of stuff. and he said and rush were in their rooms reading books and so it's just a different vibe like whether or not you agree with it it's a different vibe and they their lyrics reflect that uh i actually sent to my brother uh if you want to know how amazing the lyrics are which by the way were written by the drummer right um just go to youtube and hit rush songs and there's actually a Rush one with the lyrics there and you can read the lyrics along with it. And you can say, wow, that there's way more to that band, the lyrics anyway, than I originally thought. Yep. So honestly, all in all, I think that rush, I like it. I think, I think they did a great job. Um, I'm not, I don know I guess I easy to please though Any new pinball is good pinball right Like but what do you think of the playfield I love the modifications he did to the X theme I like the diverter path up on top that he did.
    42:00
    I do like the washing machine. That is a cool, the time machine, whatever you want to call it. That has the ramp that raises up and down. The double scoop. Double scoop was interesting. I like the left orbit too. If you hold up the right upper flipper, if you, if you hit that clean and it comes all the way around and puts it right into the scoop for you so you can lock a ball. I do like, I feel like that's one hard part with Borg is like with Ninja Turtles is you have every shot you have to earn. Um, I like a couple of give me shots. I think that's why everyone likes L1 games is because there are hot, hard shots. You feel like you have to earn, but there are some give me shots like the T-Rex shot. There's some shot, or the spinner shot you know so you have a ball ball lock on the left side you have so you have two wire forms and you also have two vacuum formed uh like pathways and so i i'm really curious because we we do have a um i've talked with borg a little bit online and when things calm down a little bit he's going to come on and i want to ask him specifically about when you're choosing ramp because there is a method to the madness there's a reason why he specifically chose a vacuum form ramp for two of them and wire form for the other two and i don't know if it's speed because i aesthetically you'd think well maybe you just do the same one but there's there's a reason for that and so i'm curious to find out what it is i feel like this project it came out on all cylinders it looks great okay so i want to play i i'm glad you got the le this is now this gives me an excuse to come to your house here in like a month yeah and it's it makes me chuckle though that you're going to get rush before you even see your godzilla yeah or a mando by the way oh you're still waiting for mando still waiting for mando wow so you're gonna you're guaranteed a rush before yeah you're 20 almost all the 2020 okay however again people if you uh if you want to get a game and you really are dying to get it then uh definitely the le is the way to get it first so um okay so let's talk about code though like um his last uh his last game um was what was that who tim's no no no sorry no sorry so boar's last game yes so it was turtles yes and uh so dwight is great he has a different approach to rule sets he does yep and uh some people really connect with it other people uh find them challenging um so this is i think you're putting it very nicely well okay but i legitimately all rule sets have different styles right it's like an art right every everybody has their own designer everybody has their own code or everybody has their own art package you know so they can put their dream things down so bork has worked with a lot of different designers yep and so this is uh this is interesting because this is the first time he's working with tim sexton and raymond davidson so and tim's the lead but obviously having the world's number one player and having tim who is a highly competitive pinball player himself who comes through it from the tournament approach how does that make you feel about the game it makes me excited and nervous at the same time okay tell me the reason the reason being is i'm excited because i feel like we are now starting to gravitate towards this top tier players making code is what is making code amazing right now it is not hard to argue that elwynn is making fantastic games right now and it's a lot of it's due to the code direction he goes um tim did great on led zeppelin i enjoyed the code there and he did great on black knight i thought that was done wonderfully and so it makes me excited because i feel like there's gonna be a lot of depth but that's a problem borg is brutal so how do you explore depth of code when you've got brutal games like borg and that's where we bring in when we were watching the stream it seemed multi-ball heavy right and so i don't know if this is just because it's early code or what's going on here and it might balance they might balance it back a little bit but i think that's the best way to explore this game is being able to do it through multi-ball it probably will be yes and i i loved that it was a fast game and i i am not the guy who likes to trap and shoot i'm not that guy like i i will do it for games when i need to but yeah and that it especially on a rock game you do not want to trap and shoot rock game yeah you want to keep that pedal to the metal and so i i was really happy and surprised that they were playing and having i would say decent ball time so i i guarantee at least at first i'm going to close the out lanes out and i'm just going to explore this thing yep and then hopefully as i get better then i'll start ratcheting that back on the game um yeah it's the multi-ball it'll be interesting to see how that's utilized however you can definitely change that because like in um in tournament metallica games a lot of them have modified it and so and you know you you don't necessarily just have to do uh one thing or you know it's they may crank it up a little harder or you know things like that and so you can still make this mean for elite players.
    47:36
    So I'm not too worried, but I like that it's scalable. I like that I will, as an above average home player, I'm not a tournament player, I just don't have time. I like that I will still be able to play this game. And I think that that resonates with other people.
    47:56
    And the reason I'm saying this is because Rush is a good band. um but i with the reception that we're seeing right now i don't know if it's part of just the resurgence in pinball but you can't tell me that every single person that's ordered this game so far is a die-hard rush fan or all from canada yeah exactly um all the yeah the mount mountie police or something um yeah i i'm actually surprised i i'm pleasantly surprised that it doesn't seem to be just hardcore Rush fans.
    48:33
    Because I was concerned, and we talked about this before, would it make a good theme? I'm like, I don't know. And I attribute that, again, listen to Ed Robertson as interview with Nate Shivers.
    48:47
    They did a really good job of he, Alex, and Getty all together negotiated the song list that it was like, you know, and he called him. He's like, give me your bangers. Like you hit that and everybody immediately recognizes the song and they are excited to hear it and play it. And they chose really great songs for a rock pinball machine. Well, and it wasn't only like great songs that were recognized. It was like upbeat songs as well because we don't want Stairway to Heaven, essentially well and that yeah that would be so hard um but they they chose you know rush has 19 studio albums to go from so they were able to and i and the amazing thing to me is he said that he getty and alex have 15 of the same songs out of 20 on their list and that's how you know i These are, okay, ladies and gentlemen, these are professional musicians. Yes. They know great songs, and Ed knows great pinball. So absolutely, he is going to help guide that. Yep. And having Ed be the lead to make sure that, and Rush said, we don't know anything about pinball, but you're the pinball guy, so we want a good machine. And that's when you know you're going to get something special in the secret sauce because they are more interested in having a good pinball machine than just having another product with their label on it. I'm right there with you. I was very skeptical on a Rush pinball machine, but they have definitely proved me wrong this week. I am very impressed with the product that they've put out. They they appeased any fear that I possibly could have had. Yep. And absolutely. And having Borg do Rush and he knows Rush. And so I actually was messaging him back and forth. And there is a great interview about Rush in Rolling Stones. yeah so uh go and just google that and look it up and there is stuff in there that i didn't know about and so it's a great read go ahead if you want to know more about rush that's a great read on that so i think we've talked plenty about rush we're 51 minutes and plus we talked rush on yeah for 90 minutes on triple drain so go listen to triple drain i do feel like we we covered different aspects though of absolutely yeah so uh if you haven't listened to the triple drain episode don't think it's just us spouting the same stuff over again actually i would say they're very different like what we're talking about here is very different yeah yeah and so um one other thing i wanted to hit uh it is award season and we i know that we've always joked that we are all for the awards like scott said last year that's all we do this for right is the money guns and the glory and the awards and uh honestly we're joking but we do appreciate those that felt like we are one of their favorite podcasts that they went and pre-voted for us and we we announced it on our podcast like yeah we're in the pre-vote if you want to do it go for it but we didn't post it on facebook or anything if i remember correctly uh i may have had my grandmother ask if she could go we are definitely supportive of what uh jeff does at this weekend yes i think he has some excellent deep dives. So that's actually where I go when I want to read it. And so I was very impressed with impressed with his rush deep dive. He did a great job. Absolutely. And so we're OK. We are not underplaying it. I think it's a very worthwhile thing. We also don't want to be accused of of inappropriately influencing the voting. I guess that's correct. I kind of have the same attitude as like Martin and Jeff over at Final Round I think it's one of those things like we really appreciate the support and everything but we do this content because we enjoy doing this and because you guys like to listen and interact with us we don't do it because it's twippy time and we need to vote legitimately this is one of the best parts of the week for me yeah I agree and uh thank you for support I was surprised that we've made. It's because we got slap-saved last year. Yeah.
    53:25
    And shout-out to Final Round to Jeff and Martin for not making it. I know they don't give a crap, but yeah, between that... Okay, but come on. It feels good.
    53:37
    There's a little validation for what you do. It's awesome that Pinball Profile made it, and the reason being is Jeff has been doing this for how many years now? He has shined lights on aspects of this hobby and this industry that don't get light shone on very often at all. And so it's very cool to listen to a pinball profile that is timeless and go back and find an interview that just, I didn't know anything about this person. Jeff was talking about them two years ago. And you go and get a deep dive on this person. You know, it just it shines a light on this wonderful hobby. Class industry. I'll just put that away. But no, thank you Thank you for voting us We're definitely not We know we won't be the number one Which is fine, it's not a big deal Well, okay, we may be Go vote, go vote Get your plumber to vote Wait, I am a plumber Never mind Get your anesthesiologist to vote Get your plumber to vote Get your HVAC guy to vote Scott, while you're sitting on your phone during my surgery I need you to go to I'll do it between cases So anyway It's But it's good So What are you thinking? Do you want to go through some of these things?
    55:00
    Let's be honest I've already said this to other people 2021 was not a fantastic year For pinball 2020 was actually pretty impressive But 2021 It's coming down to Godzilla and Mandalorian In my opinion Yeah. However, I think that I was surprised because there are aspects that I'm like, you know what? I didn't really consider that. And so so let's just we're not going to go down every category. OK. But what I do want to do is, first off, I want to talk about, and we talked about this in This Week in Pinball, in the Twippy.
    55:39
    Theme. So of all the themes that just came out, which one were you like, yes, that theme needs to be done? Out of 2021?
    55:50
    Out of last year, yes. Yes. uh the theme that i was shocked and actually was okay okay surprise theme that they did okay we can do that surprise theme they did and the one that you're like yes absolutely like that is a perfect thing well it was a surprise when i heard i said yes that's the one they needed to do was mandalorian okay i was i was actually surprised um but then again i'm not a i'm not a huge horror movie fan so halloween doesn't do it for me and i don't know much japanese film i knew who ultraman was but i i can't i have no idea yeah uh led zeppelin's a good band but i just that pin does nothing for me okay okay just theme alone though if you just saying yeah sorry okay so theme wise theme led zeppelin doesn't hit it for me okay i would say my my one and two would be Mandalorian and Led Zeppelin coming up because Led Zeppelin, great. Everybody's listened to Led Zeppelin, but Mandalorian, it was one of those themes that it's kind of like guardians of the galaxy where you're like, that's actually a, a current thing that so many people right now are talking about. And that's challenging because Stern has been, well, pinball has been burned by thinking a theme is going to be great. And then just, you know, the Johnny Mnemonic thing, right? Yeah. Where they think it's going to be great, so they make a pinball machine, and then they look at it, and they're like, ooh. As Gomez is leaving the theater, he's like, can we get out of this? Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, I think that for theme alone, Mandalorian, hands down, yes. That is the right thing, okay? So, and this is hard because of lockdown, I haven't gotten out to play everything, but I've been able to watch streams on it and things like that. So like animations and just, and display.
    57:52
    So what do you think? I still think Godzilla takes this one, even though Mandalorian, the clips are good, but it's a lot of like two, three seconds, seconds of it. And then it's like a freeze frame with a color change. Okay. I feel like I enjoy the Godzilla ones more because they're cheesy and they just, they fit the theme and watching when you're hitting that, that inner loop and it's coming back and you're getting that dude's head to spin. Yeah. That's fantastic. It, those animations I feel like are top notch over everything else that's come out. Okay. I, I may be an outlier on this one.
    58:28
    I, I think sorcerer apprentice. No, I can see that. It's I, it's a different degree and I understand why people may think, may have issues with P3. I understand it is a different version of pinball. It is not your standard version of pinball. But being able to integrate a ball with the animations on the play field and on the screen, it's challenging. And I remember playing that with you at Expo, and I thought, wow, this is really clever and fun. Yeah, I agree.
    59:09
    It's not going to be for everyone, but I felt the animations and display, I gave it to P3. Yeah, I can see it. I will not argue with you on that one. Yeah. Okay, so Light Show. I'm still Godzilla. I think there's a lot of cool lights. Okay, I put Led Zeppelin. I can see that. I put the interact. And obviously, this is the next step with what JJP did with Guns N' Roses, right? It was kind of simultaneously developed. I'm sure that the word got out and they figured out ways of doing the chicken or the egg, right? But, man, if you don't have those light bars on Led Zeppelin, it is a completely different game. Yeah, true. so that that's why i i chose that one so and like i said i'm not going to argue that one as well but i just i feel like uh it's just something about godzilla it's the spinning of the mecha godzilla the light show there it's just i feel like there's a lot of integration that makes that game come to life okay i and i love godzilla too right yeah i i struggle with toys and gimmicks because hands down with godzilla no you like really what else do you have you have a spinner that comes out the play field what mandalorian you've got a yeah you've got the rotating play field godzilly you've got an up and down skyscraper that changes yeah i'm just saying like toys and gimmicks i'm not even sure what like what does that mean like when people say best toy in a game i'm always like what are you like what are you talking about like what is a toy like is it something that's unique to it like guide me josh help me dave fix me tell me what i should i miss you so when i look at i've got i've got four games in front of me i've got avengers okay uh if i were to look at a toy on there it's almost it would be the avengers tower something that is aesthetically very close to like the theme visually identifiable yeah you know i'm gonna i'm gonna summarize it like this okay a toy or a gimmick is something plucked directly from the theme and somehow then inserted into the game and made to interact with the game like ninja turtles turtle van that was theme specific theme specific yes the turtle van was plucked directly from the tv series and it was put in the game and the balls divert through it look at the t-rex on jurassic park is plucked directly from the movie it's something that is visually identifiable to that and then world cup soccer you've got a goalie that moves back and forth and you got a big soccer ball that spins so toys and gimmicks to me are something that you would for that theme is plucked directly out of the real world or out of that out of that movie the book whatever it may be and it is placed directly on the play field and when you look at the play field you go hey that's baby yoda or you go hey uh um i don't know i keep thinking led zeppelin like with mando you you've got uh you've got the razor crest you know it's just some some that's when i think toys and gimmicks that's what i think of is that okay so uh now we talked about theme let's talk about theme integration godzilla okay so okay tell me godzilla versus mandalorian then because i that would be my one and two so with godzilla i feel like the theme integration is a lot better because you have a destroyable skyscraper you have the mecha godzilla that grabs the ball you have a destroy a destroying bridge you have that magnet yeah that newton ball thing which is yeah awesome yes um you've got i mean heck look at when you drain and you get the shoot again it's godzilla kicking his little boy back into the you know and it's so funny because it is it is comical i mean it's these these these dudes in rubber suits and absolutely you're right and the tag team clips are fantastic they're just everything drips and oozes and don't get me wrong mandalorian's theme is integrated fairly well with the episodes with the clips and stuff like that um honestly i don't feel like the upper play field i i feel like it takes away from the game more than when it adds to it And that's why I think that Godzilla is better at theme integration than Mandalorian. Okay. All right. Best music and sound effects. Do you go with the give me here? Like, I feel the same with Carrie. Yeah. Like music, sound effects. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to play the music takes priority card here. So the Led Zeppelin does. And I'll put Led Zeppelin. See, that's the problem. I feel the same as Kerry Hardy. This music was never made for pinball. It was made for mass consumption. Okay, but Guns N' Roses won last year, and it's basically the Guns N' Roses entire catalog. I agree.
    64:17
    I can see it going both ways. I can see it being like, yes, it is integrated into the game. It is music. It wasn't necessarily made for the pinball machine. But then I feel bad for people like Jerry Thompson that spends all this time integrating and putting original music into a pinball machine and making it work. OK, well, OK, we both met Jerry and Jerry is awesome. And, OK, I don't think Jerry would have any problem with me saying that Led Zeppelin music is iconic. Yeah. And so I'm going to take the icon over his stuff, even though. Love you, Jerry. Good stuff. so i would not be shocked if it's led zeppelin okay um i still i i do like and and yeah it just i'm gonna leave it at that because it's gonna sound very contradictory if i if i go into uh what i was gonna say so okay i'm just gonna i'm just gonna leave it at that okay all right best call outs um i thought the uh led zeppelin no i i think god's all multi-ball Yeah, it's the best British man I've ever heard of. Yeah, it's like a Simpsons character. Okay, I said Mandalorian. Really? Yeah, I think that Apollo Creed doing the call-outs, I mean, he's a great actor. And he was perfect for that role. So I'm actually going to call that. I think you're going to say Godzilla. I think Godzilla. And it's because of the reporter. Good golly, Miss Molly. Oh, no, no. it's it's appropriate level campy because it's self-aware i totally get it um but i i'm just gonna say i'll take uh carl weathers and i don't blame you there i don't blame you there so sorry maybe i i guess i like godzilla i can't wait for mine to show up i know right you you're uh i i need new pinball gosh dang it it's been too long seriously you you and you and keith ellen and Godzilla, it's the Archer meme. And if you don't know what it is, just Google it. Yeah. Okay. Best rules. I think we're both in agreement on this one. Godzilla. Yeah. Or Led Zeppelin. You know what, Kay? I actually like the rules of Led Zeppelin. No, I'm not saying I don't. I'm just saying that Godzilla definitely is the farc. The problem is Godzilla, because the entire theme works better, then it gets the nod. But I actually put Led Zeppelin as second. because I thought it did such a good job. And I put Mandalorian as third because I really,
    66:51
    Stern does have the best rule sets out there. They do, and especially in this year's running. Like it's definitely dominated by Stern. Okay, best play field and layout.
    67:07
    Come on. I've been saying it. Come on. Yeah. You can say it too. It's Godzilla. Go, go, go, Godzilla. Yeah. I would give an honorable mention to Jack and Jurassic Park. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised with the pin. I think that he surprised me. Given that I had no expectations whatsoever, that game is fun. Yeah. And it's very fun. And given the limited budget he did that on, I actually thought that was – I just didn't even know what to expect, so I didn't have any other expectations. So, okay, so best artwork.
    67:50
    Okay, how are you going to – I like me some zombie yeti. Okay, this is where I'm going to – I'm going to vote for zombie yeti also. However, close – it's a coin flip because I think that Martinez did such a great job a Mandalorian 2. I agree with you there. So that actually...
    68:16
    Oh man. I wish I could possibly say a tie on that one. Because I love the artists that they've got for Stern. All of them are doing so good right now. They really are firing on all centers. I'm going to put Halloween as an honorable mention because I think... Full disclosure, in the Pinball Industry Awards, they actually had it separated for best play field artwork and best cabinet artwork. So best cabinet and back glass artwork. I voted for Halloween. Really? Yeah, I did because I, the reason why I say that is based on that picture alone, spooky sold out. Yeah, it's probably true. So that was, so I'm looking at the, the most valuable player on the machine. And that's exactly what it came down to. Yeah. Okay. So Game of the Year is, I think we can say, is Godzilla. Yeah. Halloween.
    69:19
    Man, I wish Halloween were better. I really do. I feel crestfallen when I think about it. So I guess the other question, too, is do we see a change? It seems like it's been kind of the same thing for the last few years in the entertainment section of Twippies. are we going to still see straight down the middle take youtube like they have since the beginning dead flip take since the beginning on streaming can i take pinball podcasting uh are we going to see any shake up there um straight down the mill's done less videos this year compared to the what they have in previous years dead flip has been doing a lot less but then we did find out he became an official employee yeah so i think things are going i i would probably say i'm streamer i there are more things now i think the challenge is for people to to beat it you're probably going to have to develop a carve out a following that differentiates and i don't know how you do that um i we we know that fox cities does a great job We know that Buffalo Pinball basically does a great job, too. It's multiple people streaming. Flippin' Out Pinball. All these guys, they are great at that.
    70:49
    I would argue the most with streamer, though, I'm guessing it's going to be Carl D'Angelo. and the reason why I say that is because he had the most iconic moment last year when he got to the end of Halloween and it crashed on him and he was kind of like and Carl's an elite player too so I don't know the problem is they all seem very close right the products seem very they're great but I don't know um i don't know what else to think yeah so now what do you think i think we see still see sees i think we still see more of the same um i think these people have made quite the following and quite the uh uh the fan base and uh it's a very strong fan base and they'll they'll follow the fall yeah previous years yeah so i'm the end a lot of us i was gonna say a lot of people that are just happy to be on the nominee list. Oh, sure. It doesn't bother me one bit.
    72:03
    It doesn't validate what we do. You know, I've, going to Expo, just, it was weird to see how far that you and I have come. Meeting people, carving out our little niche in our podcast, and earning the respect of those in the industry. and you know by and far i would i i just love that we have done that for ourselves it's really cool to walk up to george gomez yeah i was like you probably don't know who i am and he's like i know who you are josh like you're from loser kid and it's like and you know we see when he says he wants to come on your show because he respects what you do and he'd be more than happy to come shoot the breeze with us that made me feel like we'd made it you know we have an interview that we're working out that will hopefully happen by the end of the month. And if the person does decide to join us on the show, I mean, that'll make me feel like we've made it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
    73:06
    And I love that when we went to Expo, like every person that we talked to, we received positive feedback from them. And most of the people we talked to, I'm like, we want to get you on the show. And we still do. It is challenging to find like the right time to put that person in, uh, for the, especially when we do really 24 to 25 episodes a year. Right. And so it just kind of depends, but really it's, it's kind of surprising to me because this, for me, podcasting, this is what we do. Like podcasting. It's, it's like, you and I talk three times a week and we probably message each other about every day. Yeah. And it just feels like I'm calling a friend and talking about a fun thing we do that is a nice distraction from the challenges of daily life. I agree. So it feels surprising to me that anybody else enjoys listening to it. Just because it just seems like calling up a friend and talking, I guess. Yeah. So I'm glad and I appreciate every single person who has been in that silent chair position and has just enjoyed what we've talked about. It really does. I want to give a quick shout to your point to your point. Here you go. Ready for this? Yeah. I don't know if you guys saw on the Facebook page. I got a smartwatch for Christmas. My wife wanted me. I've always had a Fitbit because I just I just want to see what the time is and maybe a quick text. So I don't have to pull up my phone. and I got a smart watch and then I figured out how to make your own face on the smart watch. So I made a Loser Kid one. Very basic, just something that would have been fun, free for anyone to download. And I received a message from Pinsider 6.5 Degrees. Really nice dude. He sent us, I've downloaded Facer. I've searched Loser Kid. I'm not coming up with anything. Regardless, you're a loyal listener. And I'm like, wait, what? It's super nice. And seriously, I'm just happy that for – okay, I'll get a little into the weeds here. I've always felt like the millhouse.
    75:29
    I've always felt like I was never the guy that people hung out with. I just happened to be around someone who was more charismatic than me. Yeah. Okay. No, I get you. And so this is kind of a shout out to anybody who else has felt like that in their life. And if if they want to come and hang out and we can be the millhouses and just know that I I don't care if anybody else thinks you're cool. I think you're cool. And it's just it's fun to make a seat at the table for anybody who's willing to come. and you're valued and you're, and you're important to me and you're important to Josh. And so that's been, that's been the biggest thing that I've appreciated throughout this whole process is that on some level we have made a connection with someone. And even if it's just one episode, we have appreciated the ride. Yep. Obviously we are appreciated enough that we got at least a hundred votes or a hundred plus votes to, to be a Twippy nominee. Right. And so it still shocks me every morning when I wake up and my phone alerts me because since I made that watch face, it will tell me when someone's actually synced it to their watch. I still haven't done it. I have the Apple Watch. That's funny. So you haven't done it. So there's people that isn't us that is syncing this. It's free, but it's still. I am not the most technically savvy guy out there. Yeah. So.
    77:04
    Anywho. Okay. But my point being is in high school, I would have never thought that. Like I was in a touring band. I opened for bands. I always felt like the opener. I never felt like the headliner. And so it's cool that we've, like I said, we've carved out our little corner in this hobby. And it's cool where we've come for these last three years. And I appreciate a lot of the friendships. Well, not a lot. I appreciate all the friendships that we've made along the way. and it's still mind-boggling me to me that people that i never would have thought of that i would ever talk to message me on a weekly basis yes and i i can't tell you how many people friends i genuine friends that we have met through this process i appreciate those there was a lot that reached out this last wednesday i don't know if you saw my facebook post um my dog that we've had for 12 years she has been battling cancer and she's she was old enough to the point that they just couldn't do surgery on her anymore and it was let her enjoy her last few months uh because the cancer is going to take her and uh and tuesday morning we woke up to the the scary realization that it was it was time and uh she wasn't eating she wasn't drinking she was vomiting blood everywhere and uh we had to make that that decision of of do we let her keep living this life or you know and so finally my wife and i gave our kids one more night with our dog and uh we said goodbye to her on wednesday and it was probably one of the hardest things i've done i like i haven't lost a kid or anything like that i can never imagine that but losing a pet when it's been a part of your family for 12 years is rough and especially in that way when you lose into something like cancer it just it's even that much harder and uh i appreciate everyone that reached out holy crap like i didn't realize how many people actually cared and sharing their stories uh i appreciate when people share their stories because they know where i know where they're coming from and like don't ever feel like you're turning into yourself or whatever like if you want to share your story go ahead um but no i a lot of it was people from this community and i appreciate that thank you Yeah, and I message you too, but when hearing you tell it, it reminds me of my dog who I lovingly refer to him as my step dog because when I married my wife, he was eight years old. but we had him for another, well, I guess he was probably 10 years old. So we had him for another seven years and he was, you know, he was an old dog, but we noticed that he was getting down. Um, and, uh, I, I went to work and my wife had said, you know, we're going to take him in just to see. And so I was, I was working and, you know, she calls me and says, you know, we're, we're putting him down. and you know my kids were crying and I was crying so it's hard so my heart goes out to you and it's been four or five years now but it still brings back memories that part of you is gone so well and just to even realize it was she's laying there on the table and you know just realizing this is the last time I was going to fill her fur and just pet her. A lot of times at night, as soon as I got home, she would sit by my side and make sure that I pet her head. Yeah. And me realizing that wasn't ever going to happen ever again. So time is short. Take advantage of it while you're on this earth. Yeah.
    80:51
    Tell those that you haven't talked to in a while that you love them and make sure they're doing okay. Yeah. So I think that's a good point to stop. Let's wrap it up before we become crying messes on this show and whatnot. But thank you, thank you, thank you. And I haven't had a chance to send the reward back for even, you know, when we had Zach on. I've been so busy, but I haven't forgot about you. And we will definitely get your swag back out from Loser Kid Out. So thank you guys so much. And certainly, we always appreciate it if you share us and share our thoughts. We certainly want to connect with everybody we can. And as always, everybody is welcome to the table. Yep. Always judge a person upon their character and on anything else. So, all right. If you want to get ahold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball podcast at gmail.com. It is better to get ahold of us at Loser Kid Pinball on Facebook or our individual accounts at Scott Larson or Josh Roop. We're also on Instagram, Twitter and Twitch. If you want our direct links, go to SoundCloud.com slash Loser Kid Pinball podcast. I think that pretty much wraps it up for us you got anything else for us Scott? no just looking forward to another two weeks and really happy that Rush is going to be awesome and you're probably going to get a lot of guests that are Rush centric over the next little bit and that's just because I'm a total fanboy nothing wrong with it so alright talk to you later Scott ok see ya
    82:58
    Shut up and sit down. It's accepting.