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Episode 115 - Interview with Danny Leach 6-26-15

For Amusement Only EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·47m 59s·analyzed·Jul 4, 2015
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TL;DR

Danny Leach interviews about archiving bingo pinball history and his passion for early EM machines.

Summary

Danny Leach discusses his extensive archival work on bingo pinball history through his website danny.cdyn.com, which he has been developing since the mid-1990s. He shares personal stories about discovering his first bingo machine (Big Time) at age 16 in Portland, Oregon in 1976, and explains his passion for early electromechanical bingo games and their design evolution. Leach highlights the unique features of different manufacturers—particularly Bally versus United—and emphasizes the dedicated but niche community around bingo pinball preservation and history.

Key Claims

  • Danny started archiving bingo pinball history around 1996, with the website formally posted in September 2001

    high confidence · Danny Leach stated directly: 'I posted this in September of 2001, but I think it goes back a little farther than that... I think this thing actually went back to 1996 when I started touching the games.'

  • Hi-Fi bingo machine is the only machine with a bump feature where the entire playfield jumps off the floor

    high confidence · Danny Leach: 'It's not only got the bump feature, buddy, but the whole, it's the only one with the bump feature... the whole thing shakes. It literally jumps off the floor an inch.'

  • Oregon had strict laws against bingo machines in the 1950s-1970s, making them rare in the state compared to Washington

    medium confidence · Danny Leach: 'the Oregon Law is back then, and you can read a ton of pages on my website, the Oregon Laws just seemed to crack down on these... But in Oregon, you know, the Oregon Law is back then...'

  • United machines (Mexico) offered a special card feature with four-number cards that Bally Valley machines did not have

    high confidence · Danny Leach: 'the feature it has that Valley never had was the special card feature... The special cards were the four-number cards... on the United games the special cards when you lit up a special card it was lit. It was done.'

  • Phil Hooper's website was one of only two major bingo pinball websites in the early Internet era, along with Raymond Watts' site

    high confidence · Danny Leach: 'there was very few sites that they attribute to bingo pinballs. In fact, there was only two. There was Phil Hooper's website... And then there was another website by a man named Raymond Watts.'

  • Ohio dime games represent a gap in documented pinball history and may bridge the evolution between early bingo games and European designs

    medium confidence · Danny Leach: 'I think there's a hidden piece of history that doesn't have a lot of detail. If we did know that detail, I think we'd know a lot more about the history of the games, the history about America, the history about Europe...'

Notable Quotes

  • “We're going to own you for the next 40, 50 years, and maybe even beyond that.”

    Danny Leach @ mid-conversation — Reflects Danny's philosophy on how bingo machine designers created lasting player engagement and loyalty across decades

  • “This is why this guy is one of my bingo heroes because he truly loves the game. He has that passion, he has that affinity, he has that presence of mind.”

    Danny Leach @ mid-conversation — Demonstrates the tight-knit community values around dedicated collectors and historians in the bingo pinball scene

  • “I don't know a damn thing about these games, but I do tell you I've owned five of these games.”

    Danny Leach @ early-mid conversation — Establishes Danny's humility and hands-on collector experience despite being positioned as an expert archivist

  • “the whole thing shakes. It literally jumps off the floor an inch. And then every ball in the table shifts.”

    Danny Leach @ mid-conversation — Vivid description of Hi-Fi's unique mechanical feature, illustrating the exotic engineering of early bingo machines

  • “Once you find somebody that likes these things, man, you have a pinball friend, and you have a guy that might stick with him.”

    Danny Leach @ late-conversation — Emphasizes the loyalty and lasting social bonds created by bingo pinball fandom

Entities

Danny LeachpersonPhil HooperpersonRaymond WattspersonRuss JensenpersonDick BuchelpersonDon HookerpersonJeffrey LawtonpersonKeith NiccolopersonNick BaldridgepersonDon Gurlissperson

Signals

  • ?

    restoration_signal: Danny describes restoring his first Big Time machine as a teenager using a plastic comb to clean relay banks and scoreboard—an informal but effective repair technique from 1976

    high · He used a plastic comb to run down relay banks and scoreboard to restore the machine's functionality after it had been non-operational

  • ?

    historical_signal: Danny references Russ Jensen's observation that Don Hooker and Bally employed a design philosophy of progressive game evolution—each new title adding features and attractions to deepen player engagement

    high · 'You took the player through a journey... you started out with a few features... And then the next game you produced, well, you added something, an attraction. And then the next game you added an attraction.' This was described as evolution and growth strategy.

  • ?

    historical_signal: Oregon had strict legal restrictions on bingo machines in the 1950s-1970s, making machines rare and survivors limited to older models, while Washington was 'lean and tolerant' and machines survived better there

    medium · Danny states Oregon laws 'cracked down' on bingo machines, contrasting with Washington's tolerance and Seattle's emergence as a restoration hub

  • ?

    content_signal: Danny's website danny.cdyn.com evolved from 1996 to formally launch September 2001, growing significantly beyond the original host Phil Hooper's site in size and scope due to unlimited server access granted by Hooper

    high · Danny explicitly dates website start to 1996, formal posting to September 2001, and notes his site is now 'about ten times bigger' than Hooper's due to generous hosting provisions

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.144

0:00
What's that sound? It's For Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast. Welcome back to For Amusement Only. This is Nick Baldridge. My guest tonight is Danny Leach.
0:18
Danny runs a website, danny.cdyn.com, which collects and archives bingo history and stories from all across the country and all across the world. Hi, Danny. It's Nick. How are you? I'm doing good, thank you.
0:33
Danny, I know you only digitally from your website, which is danny.cdyn.com. And there you've archived a massive amount of bingo history, stories, and information.
0:55
So can you tell me a little bit about how you got started doing that? Yeah, well, first I'd like to pay a little tribute to my website, the C-D-Y-N.
1:09
Most people are familiar with Phil Hooper, and he has just a wonderful technical website. And one of Phil's hobbies is the Internet, right? I mean, he does it for a living. He even says that on his site. And so he's running some server systems and some people that he has been kind to, including myself, he's given a home. And so my website doesn't have some fancy title or anything. He's pretty straightforward. I think he's pretty technical. And most of his websites are Raymond, Danny. I mean, they all start out with a first name thing. And what's really nice about that, in addition just to his being so graceful, is he's given us pretty much unlimited access. So if you were to look at my website right now, my website is about ten times bigger than his. And what's really unique about that is his website is full of video, full of high-resolution graphics. So he was very, very kind to not only give me a home, but also give me quite a bit of web space. Now, one of the kind of neat things for my particular case, or at least I think it's neat, is I started on the Internet way back when the Internet was, when it's just in its infancy, right?
Old Binger
person
Big Timegame
Hi-Figame
Palm Springsgame
Mexicogame
Surf Clubgame
Magic Screengame
Ballycompany
Unitedcompany
Valleyproduct_line
For Amusement Onlyorganization
Ohio Dime Gamesproduct_line

community_signal: Early internet-era bingo pinball community featured direct expert mentorship—Russ Jensen, Dick Buchel, and Jeffrey Lawton proactively corrected and educated Danny through email and physical media (CD-ROM interviews)

high · Danny describes receiving corrections and guidance from multiple experts who identified his initial errors and sent educational materials including CD-ROM interviews

  • ?

    collector_signal: Danny owns or has owned six bingo machines (Big Time, Hi-Fi, Palm Springs, Mexico, Surf Club, and one unspecified non-working machine), representing significant hands-on collector experience in the niche market

    high · Danny states: 'I've owned five of these games. I've owned Big Time. I've owned Hi-Fi. I've owned Palm Springs. I've owned Mexico. And I've owned one more in there...'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Hi-Fi featured a unique full-playfield jump/bump mechanic where springs on both ends cause the entire 25-hole playfield to leap off the floor—described as the only machine with this feature

    high · Danny: 'It's not only got the bump feature, buddy, but the whole, it's the only one with the bump feature... the whole thing shakes. It literally jumps off the floor an inch.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: United machines (Mexico) differentiated from Bally Valley machines by offering special card features with four-number cards that lit up instantly with full features, versus Valley's slower multi-nickel supercard build-up system

    high · Danny contrasts: United special cards 'when you lit up a special card it was lit. It was done' with all features, versus Valley requiring 'four or five nickels' to slowly build up supercard odds

  • ?

    historical_signal: Ohio Dime Games (1950s-60s era) represent a significant undocumented chapter in pinball history, occupying a mysterious niche between early bingo designs and European game evolution; play field/backglass/button mismatches suggest intentional obscurity or sequencing issues

    medium · Danny: 'There's this whole little hidden episode of history right there... I think some of those things are out of sequence... I think there's a hidden piece of history that doesn't have a lot of detail.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Despite small size, the bingo pinball community is extremely dedicated and loyal—Raymond Watts' website attracts millions of unique visitors; passionate collectors refer to themselves as 'Bingers' and exemplify lifelong commitment to the hobby

    high · Danny: 'we do have a dedicated following, and we do have some people that are really, really into this game... Raymond Watts' website, he's got a little counter on there. It's up in the millions... Once you find somebody that likes these things, man, you have a pinball friend.'

    • 2:50
    And there wasn't, there was literally thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of sites, but there was very few sites that they attribute to bingo pinballs. In fact, there was only two. There was Phil Hooper's website, and let me compliment Phil again. I call Phil the bingo king. And I really like that. And then there was another website by a man named Raymond Watts. And Raymond's site is really, really cool. It's not bingo specific, but he really touches on some really neat bingo things. He hits the silver cells. He hits a few of the manuals. And he touches on some things from his area of the country. Raymond is down from Texas. He's down in the Galveston area, one of the islands down there. And when he grew up, he's a little bit more elderly than I am. And so he had a unique touch on the bingos. It was this machine, that machine, this website, that website, this arcade, that arcade. So I kind of looked around. I was going, well, Phil, you know, not only does he just have a wonderful technical website, but he's also very gracious, and if you just email him, he'll help you with any problem you have. And then, you know, Raymond, on the other hand, was, okay, I'm into these games. I'm into this history. I'm into this part of the country. And so I was thinking, well, Danny, you know, you've kind of got an affinity for these things. You kind of want to be part of this. So how could you fit in? Where would you fill in this blank, fill in that blank, fill in this blank? And that's kind of involved over the years too. Now if you look at the Internet, there are some really, really great bingo pinball websites out there. And they have their own specialties. They're into rebuilding the machines. They're into selling the machines. They're into the United States machines, the European machines, on and on and on and on and on. So I just said, okay, Danny, you know, you have researched these for a million really cool reasons, and you have some wonderful history that you've gleaned and maintained. So why don't you go ahead and share that with others? And I'm going to call you Nicholas, if you don't mind. That's fine. And Nicholas, where I was running with this whole thing was, okay, I want to build interest in this hobby and this technology and this fun and these arcade games. And maybe if I hit enough spots and touch enough areas that I can gather a little following, and maybe that little following would lead me to more resources and more opportunities and more things to share. So you'll see in my thing the websites have graduated over the years. They've touched this. They've touched that. They've migrated here. They've gone there. They're basically all over the map. And that was kind of my plan, Danny. What can you provide and maintain and also share with others? And that was kind of neat too, Nick, as I moved along. is the Internet has changed so much in this last 20-year period, this last 30-year period, where a lot of the bingo history has been posted momentarily. That website's up for a week or that website's up for two weeks. And so I wanted to also capture those things and say, okay, I don't want to lose this history. I've got a permanent home right now. Phil's gracious enough to let me be on his website. I've got quite a few things to share. Some people might find it of interest. Some people might not, and that's cool. But if I sparked enough interest out there and if I shared enough history out there, then just maybe I could help keep the longevity of the games going. Maybe I could help promote these games into the future and help save some of this technology. This is some of the most wonderful technology America has ever invented. It's touched so many lives. Back before there was video games, back before there was pinballs, you know, the flipper pinballs in the bars, excuse me, you know, there were these games, and there's a million, million people that have this little piece of history, that little piece of knowledge, that little piece of fun, something to share, something to remember. And so I've tried to encompass all that, and I've tried to share that and maybe find a home for myself and my website.
    7:51
    Gotcha. Okay. And so when did you start doing the website? Well, if you look on the top of my website, right under my main picture, I post one picture weekly whenever I change the website. I posted this in September of 2001, but I think it goes back a little farther than that. I was kind of going through some hard times back then. I didn't have a solid Internet connection. I didn't have a solid residence. My life was in turmoil a little bit. But I think this thing actually went back to 1996 when I started touching the games. I was one or two years after Phil. Okay.
    8:43
    Okay. And what is the first game that you remember playing? Oh, that's an easy one, big time. I love that. I love that machine. When I was in high school, and I date way back, I've got a little gray hair. I was in high school in 1976 up here in Portland, Oregon. for those who are interested.
    9:10
    And there was a lot of wheeling and dealing going on up here. The barter system was quite in effect up here. And my sister lived with a man who was involved in a barter system, and he had all kinds of things coming in and out of this wire. And he had one of these big-time machines, and it was dead. It didn't work. You could plug it in. You could kick it. You could hit it with your car. You could drop it off the back of your truck, and that thing was just dead in the water. And I'm sitting there. I'm fascinated. I'm a young 16-year-old kid, right? So I'm sitting there going, hey, buddy, let me play this. Let me play this. And no, he looked at me like, hey, you're a young 16-year-old kid. Shut your mouth and stay away from my machine. Well, anyway, so one weekend they took off to the Oregon coast, and they said, hey, Danny, do you mind washing the place? And I'm, cha-ching, bingo.
    10:06
    I'm all on this, right? So I said, oh, yeah, no problem. I'll be right over, you know. And they weren't even out of the driveway. I had that thing pulled away from the wall, and I was sitting there going, oh, man, let's plug this thing in. Let's hit a few of these buttons on the handrail and on the front, and nothing would work. So I went ahead and popped open the back door, and I didn't know anything about electronics back then. I was a young person and stuff, but I did know you didn't touch AC current. It would kill you. But back in 1976, everybody had a, well, not everybody, but the kids I grew up with, you all had these plastic combs in your back pocket. So I said, okay, plastic doesn't collect electricity. I didn't know that. And, man, I took that comb, and I started running it down the relay bank, and I started running it up and down the scoreboard. I started touching everything I could touch, and man, this big time lit up like a Christmas tree. Bing, bang, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it started making all that clicking noise, and you could just smell that ozone in the air. It was just fabulous. And all of a sudden, a ball popped out. And I'm going, oh, yeah, I'm in like Flint. I played that game for the next, well, 48 hours straight, and I got caught. My sister and her boyfriend came back in the parking lot. They came in the house and I'm sitting there. I got this machine out in the middle of his living room and he's just looking at me and he finally just smiled and says, okay, I guess it's yours. And he finally gave me that machine, man.
    11:47
    And those were old school games. I mean the big time goes back to the super card games and very few features That when they first had rollovers That when they first had this and that when they first had that and you know and just exist some trivia for your folks there's a lot of people visit my website and a lot of people think i'm some sort of crazy expert on these games you know i don't know a damn thing about these games but i do tell I've owned five of these games. I've owned Big Time. I've owned Hi-Fi. I've owned Palm Springs. I've owned Mexico. And I've owned one more in there, and I won't even tell you what it is because I still don't have it working after all these years. It's sitting here waiting for me to figure out what's wrong with it. And, excuse me, I've owned one more surf club. But I'm old school. I like the early games. So they're just straightforward, and they're a lot of fun. Mm-hmm. Okay.
    12:49
    And Hi-Fi, I've never played that one. That one's got the bump feature. It's not only got the bump feature, buddy, but the whole, it's the only one with the bump feature. Right. And the whole play field jumps. Oh. And I'll tell you, man, these games, I don't know if you played any of the early ones, but they're quite noisy. and they're very loud. And when you hit a button on them, man, it's making noise. And noise is flowing out of this thing. And, you know, ozone is flowing out of this thing. And smoke are flowing out of these things. I mean, and half these machines are so old, they smell like they've been in the bars. And I'll tell you, but I'll tell you, when you finally hit that hi-fi and you finally hit that bump table feature, that whole machine jumps. It literally jumps off the floor an inch. And then every ball in the table shifts, and you're sitting there going, oh, all right, this is hip. This is a brand-new game. Awesome. It's one of my favorite machines to play. So it actually shakes all the balls that are trapped out?
    14:02
    No. and the entire play field, all 25 holes, top to bottom, it flips. It's got springs on this end, springs on that end, and bam, the whole thing shakes. And those balls just go wherever the heck they want to.
    14:23
    It's the craziest thing you've ever seen. It's just like, it'd be like if you wanted to tilt the machine and shake and rattle and roll. So that's Hi-Fi.
    14:36
    It's a wonderful game. That sounds cool. Yeah, reading the description, of course, is very different from talking to somebody who's played it.
    14:46
    So I'd never realized. I thought it just kind of self-nudged a little bit. I didn't realize it actually bounced the whole thing. That's cool.
    14:57
    So you like the older machines. When did you start? You said you were 16 when you got your first machine?
    15:06
    Yeah. If you were to talk to somebody familiar with this area, they would tell you we live in the Pacific Northwest, right? And that pretty much encompasses Oregon, Washington, and Idaho.
    15:21
    And Washington was pretty lean and pretty tolerant of the machines. I mean, even now, if you look on the Internet, when you see machines from the West Coast, and you see experts from the West Coast, you know, Don Gurliss and the guys that are fixing these machines, they're all from Seattle.
    15:41
    And that's really cool. You know, the games seem to survive up there really well. But in Idaho, I don't really think there are that many games to begin with. I think there are more games out, you know, just to the east of that in Montana and stuff like that. But in Oregon, you know, the Oregon Law is back then, and you can read a ton of pages on my website, the Oregon Laws just seemed to crack down on these. And they were pretty ubiquitous. I mean, they were everywhere. I mean, they were in the VFWs. They were in the taverns. I mean, they were, you know, anywhere you could think about playing one of these games, they were pretty much there. But I'll tell you, now, after everything that went down in that, you know, 60s and 70s and late 50s, They're pretty much gone. They're hard to find machines up here. So one of the things I've noticed, not only are they very sparse and very rare, but the few games you do find are the older games. They're, you know, they're the early 50 games and stuff like that. So I think part of my interest was, okay, you know, hey, these are a little more simple than the, you know, Magic Screen Master Lines. You know, for me, they're somewhat complex. But, you know, hey, they were here, they were available, and, you know, it's what we had. And so, you know, it's nostalgia. It's Americana. It's kind of what you grew up with and stuff like that. So, you know, it's kind of what you know. It's kind of what you do and stuff like that. And that was kind of cool. But, you know, I'll tell you, you know, some of them light up real pretty. I mean, if you just look at Palm Springs, for example, you know, and up here in Oregon, we get a lot of rain.
    17:32
    I mean, you know, half the year, the weather just sucks. But if you look at a little Palm Springs machine, you know, it's got, you know, six or seven, eight babies there in bikinis, and they're standing in palm trees, you know, and there's blue sky, and there's all kinds of things flying on this machine. and the play field itself has just got some just gorgeous, gorgeous girls you don't find on the modern-day pinballs. So, you know, I think the young man, you know, a little taboo, you know, doing something a little naughty, a little out of the ordinary, you know, I think it was easy to migrate to those and finding affinity for those. And, you know, so you kind of get comfortable with them. I mean, another really kind of thing that, you know, kind of strikes me over the years, you know, is I've been a bachelor on and off for 30-some-odd years now. But if you've got a couple of these sitting in your living room and people are going by and stopping, people stop by, when they see three or four of these in your living room, people stop by and knock on your door and introduce themselves.
    18:41
    And the kind of neat thing about these games, too, is they were pretty simple to explain. hey, okay, there's one bingo card, you know, there's two super cards, you know, there's a pick and number, there's advancing odds, you throw a few nickels in this thing, and man, I'll tell you, people just kind of get the bug, you know, you're pretty soon, these guys, pretty soon you got neighbors and friends you never met before, and they're stopping by all the dang time, you know, which I think it's really cool too, you know. So, yeah, that's interesting. You know, I started with the Magic Screen games, and my experience was that they were, you know, really complex, and that kind of turned me off at first. So I wonder if things would have been different if I started with, you know, some of the Woodrail games.
    19:35
    One thing that happened to me a long, long time ago, So before I hooked up with Phil and before I had my webpages on Phil's site, I posted a couple pages out on the Internet. I didn't know anything about, you know, Internet code, the HTML, and I didn't know where to post your website, and I didn't know how to use meta files to find somebody, and I didn't know any of that stuff. I was truly a novice at this whole thing. I was a novice at the pinballs, a novice at the technology. I was just trying to get a foot out there and kind of open the door, right? Well, you know, the next thing I know, you know, a couple weeks later, a guy named Jeffrey Lawton is writing me, going, Danny, hey, you know, that picture you posted is really not that. It's really this. And the next thing I know, Dick Buchel is writing me, and he's going, Danny, you don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about. You need to get a hold of Rush. And the next thing I know, Russ Jensen is writing me saying, hey, Danny, check this out. And I'm going to send you a few things. I mean, I'm going to help you out on all this stuff. And, you know, it was kind of cool where, you know, you're kind of going through this evolution and you're kind of getting a feel for these things. And you're sitting there going, okay, there's a progression going on. And I didn't really realize that at first. It wasn't something that just was stark in my mind and it just obviously stood out. I'm kind of intuitive. I think I'm kind of smart. I know when to stop at the red lights and stuff.
    21:20
    But one day, Rush Jensen, he said, Danny, I sent you something. I just wanted to make sure you got it. And so I'm looking at the mail. and all of a sudden I get this CD-ROM thing, you know, this computer disc thing.
    21:40
    And it's an interview of him and Dick Buchel and a couple other guys, and I still don't recognize their name, and it's an interview with Don Hooker.
    21:53
    And, you know, and Dick Buchel, you know, he was old school. He liked the old pinballs. He liked the old slot machines. He liked the old, but they had these things called advertisement games where they wanted to sell their product. And that's not the name of them, by the way. If they wanted to sell their product in a bar, they'd sell these promotion machines. But anyway, Dick Bouchette was really into the old games. And Don, excuse me, Russ was kind of into the pinballs, and he knew what was kind of going on. But the third person in this interview, and I never really did understand his name, you know, I said, hey, buddy, you're familiar with the bingos. Why don't you go ahead and take over this interview with Don? And so he started, you know, he's like me.
    22:35
    I've heard the wind blow before. He can rattle his gums all night long. But one of the things he said that really stood out to me is he said, you know, Don, you know, when you develop most of these games for ballet, well, Don, it looks like you took the player through a journey. You know, you started out with a few features, a few options, a few advancing odds. And then the next game you produced, well, you added something, an attraction.
    23:07
    And then the next game you added an attraction. And the next game you added maybe three or four things. Or maybe, you know, you added a different set of mechanics. And he likened it to the word evolution, growth. And I always thought that that was so cool that, okay, you know, if that was really true, and Don Hooker never admitted that in this whole conversation, but it was like, okay, we're going to go ahead and invent this set of machines, and we have a market for them, and we're going to go ahead and make them as attractive as possible, and we're going to go ahead and share this experience with the player. And more importantly we going to involve the player And I thought that was so very cool that okay you might play one of these games but no, uh-uh, that is it. You've only played one of these games. There's 60, 70 of these machines. Now there's a few hundred of them where, okay, you know, here's how it started. Here's how it evolved. Here's the path we took. Here's the road we traveled down. Here's the journey we took together. You know, and, man, I always thought that that was so, so cool. So back to your kind of query for me, and I don't remember your exact words, but I hope this answers your question. And, you know, part of the reason I like the old games versus, you know, I started out with a magic screen or something like that, you know, is it was the old times. It was the early evolution of these games. It was the forefathers. You know, it was the ancestors. You know, this is where these games started, you know, and they weren't very complex. They were very simple. But someday, if you ever want to talk in another interview, I don't want to take too much of your time tonight, I'll tell you a little bit about 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and 5th Street. It's a very, very interesting progression on just how the odds were built on these machines and just how the future were built on these machines and the features and the offerings and the incentives. it all plays a huge part in we're going to build a customer base, and we're going to hold their attention forever, and we're never going to let it go. And if you think about that, that is, I'm going to use a bad language here, that's a fucking amazing statement, amazing philosophy. We're going to own you for the next 40, 50 years, and maybe even beyond that. These things came out in, what, 1951? What year is it? And they still got the attention of me, of you, and a thousand followers. If you go out and look at Raymond Watts' website, he's got a little counter on there. It's up in the millions, and it's not a repeat counter. It's not like I go out there right now, and I go out there right now, and I go out there right now, and that's three. No, he's got a million followers because the interest in these things is so fantastic, and it's so phenomenal. Once you find somebody that likes these things, man, you have a pinball friend, and you have a guy that might stick with him. There's a gentleman out, I'll call it out west, out in the Midwest. His name is, he calls himself, his handle is Old Binger.
    27:07
    And hey, that means he's been into it for a real, real long time. And I find that very fascinating. I find that very cool. So when I kind of look at the Internet, too, when I kind of look at this whole phenomenon, this bingo pinball thing, we might not have the largest following, not by any means, but we do have a dedicated following, and we do have some people that are really, really into this game. And I like that name, Binger. and another phrase I like even better is, hey, and I say this on a few of my websites, hey, this is why this guy is one of my bingo heroes because he truly loves the game. He has that passion, he has that affinity, he has that presence of mind. This is something that not only holds his interest but has held it for a real, real long time.
    28:10
    Were you aware of outside of submissions to your site of the Ohio Dime Games? No, I've never played an Ohio Dime Game, but I have two I have a library of pinball books, and two of them are from Mr. Jeffrey Lawton, Dr. Bingo. In his first book, he references the Ohio Dime Games quite a bit.
    28:38
    And one of the things I find fascinating about them, well, actual several things, is I think they fall in a niche somewhere between the true intent of the bingos and the true designers that design most of the more fascinating, more complex bingos. I don't think Don Hooker designed any of those games. I don't think Bernie designed any of those games. but I think they were designed for a market for a couple reasons and I think they were designed for a market to transport parts across interstate lines I think they were designed in a time in America's history where America had a little more dollars in their pocket they were a little more affluent things were moving forward the arcades were opening up instead of just men going to bars and men going to taverns and men doing this and men doing that I think families were going to bowling alleys. And I think those games started popping up everywhere.
    29:41
    And I have a friend, and you'll see him, I mentioned several times in my website, Mr. Keith Niccolo. He's just a fabulous, wonderful bingo expert. And he's from the Ohio Valley. And that's where those games kind of originated. and another thing I really like about those games is the unknown mystery behind them is where they had so many different names so many different handles that they were kind of cloaked in a little bit of mystery you know if you look at the Valley brochures their sales flyers well the play fields don't line up with the back glasses. The back glasses don't line up with the buttons on the front door. The buttons on the front door don't line up with anything you see today. There's this whole little hidden episode of history right there. And it's really another thing I've really been looking at closely, and I haven't quite solved it, and I apologize to everybody who follows my site, is I think some of those things are out of sequence, too, where you look at the 59, 60, 61, 62, 64. I think they go up to 65 and 66, but I can't prove that. I think there's some sort of convoluted, I hate to say that, difficult history there to really unravel. But what I really, really like about them is, you know, you could go back to bright lights. I mean, you could go all the way back to Bally's first games and where the six-card father came from, grandfather came from. But when I think you look at Ohio games, I think you're looking at the entire future of Europe and everything they designed. I think it came out of that era. And that's another one of those little mysteries. I have a little notebook sitting here next to my computer. Hey, Danny, check this, prove that, do this, do that. And that's one of those things I want to understand, because I think it's a hidden piece of history that doesn't have a lot of detail. If we did know that detail, I think we'd know a lot more about the history of the games, the history about America, the history about Europe, and the history about these tenders. I think it's a wonderful period in these times. but I'd have to refer to the doctor. I think the doctor knows more than anybody.
    32:29
    So you mentioned that you have a Mexico, which is a United, and that stands out from what you were telling me in that it's the only United. What do you think about United bingos versus ballys?
    32:43
    Oh, dude. Man, I'll tell you right now. This Mexican game is just rocks. It has everything. Now, one of the things, I haven't read all your e-mails and all your postings. I apologize for that, Nick. You'll find my involvement in these games has a little bit of delay. I'm not always the sharpest tool and I'm always right on the money but one of the things that you say that you want someday is one of those rotation games from United now one of the cool things about the early games and one of the cool things about United in Mexico, Valley versus Mexico. Those are the only games playing in this, you know, 52 through 56, right through there. What I really kind of like about the Mexico game is it has the Valley supercard feature, but the feature it has that Valley never had was the special card feature. and that because you know your bingo card is a 5x5 card right and most of those early games you just have one main bingo card and then your super cards were like a 3x3 card and they you know sometimes they were just you know curve numbers and I'll explain that to you someday if you ever want to have another interview but they And some of the, when they started putting rollovers in the game where, you know, you hit the rollover and you'd light up number 10 or number 25 or something like that, usually those were the center card number.
    34:52
    But the special cards were the four-number cards. And, man, they were some tough numbers. If you looked at that play field and you were to draw an X across there, let's say from Alaska to Florida to Maine to California, you'd see that they were those numbers. Very, very tough numbers. But they also did that special thing. Now, on the United machines, the United machines were like my early big-time machine. my early big time machine, to light up that super card and to get all the super card features, like, you know, three numbers pay four numbers or four corners or something like that. You just couldn't light up the super card with one nickel. No, you had to put in four or five nickels and you'd see these little arrows under the super card. It would slowly build up these odds and pretty soon that super card was lit up with every feature it could get But on the United games the special cards when you lit up a special card it was lit. It was done. There was four numbers, and you had every feature on the planet. And that was really, really, really cool, too. Kind of what I like about the United Mexico pinballs, too, is back then, again, I'm a young man. I'm daydreaming, I'm doing all this crap. You know, they had senoritas. They had, you know, they were going, they, you know, if you look at some of their games, they were going to Tahiti. You know, they were going here, they were going there, they were going here. And so I don't know if I've answered your question, but, you know, I kind of like that they were just,
    36:42
    at least in my mind, that they were just a little more exotic and had just a little bit different features when you could do it. And now, even going back, and this is one of the things that I loved about the United games, even going back to the earliest United games, they had light a name.
    37:04
    Where if you light up, and Mexico is a good example, that's six letters, and that's a lot. But if you light up that M and that E and that X and that I and that O, and those are all features on the board, part of that rollover scheme, is pretty soon this thing will just light up like a Christmas tree. And what was really cool about it, you only get five balls, right? So you only get five balls if you're trying to light up six letters in Mexico. No, these games are smart.
    37:38
    The damn, excuse me for my language, the damn ballet games, When you dump them, you dump every feature. You dump every odd. You would dump where you were. You'd literally start over and had to put in nickels. The United games, they would remember where you were at. If you had MEX lit up, hey, man, boom. And you'd finish five balls and you'd clear and you got three in a row. It didn't matter what happened.
    38:09
    Next time you put a nickel in there, boom, you had three of those letters lit up. Wow. That's a good idea. Yeah, so that was the ultimate incentive. If you want to play a United game, just play it three or four times in a row, and only play a nickel.
    38:26
    Play a nickel and get an M. Play two nickels and get an E. So instead of putting 50 coins in a ballet game to light up that OK feature, no, you'd put seven coins in a Mexico game. and pretty soon you'd have Mexico lit up, and this could light up like a freaking Christmas tree. And you'd be there. You'd be on, man. You would have everything you ever wanted.
    38:51
    And it was kind of cool, too, just trivia for you, and somebody's going to correct me on this because I might be wrong, is the United pinballs had the first, on the coin door, they had the first select-a-feature knob. so you can go in there sometimes and say okay hey Mexico is lit up I want to select a feature I've got all kinds of features I can select I can select an extra ball I can select four in line scores five I can select a push in button and get a super selection I can select both super cards I can select both special cards all I got to do is turn that knob wherever I want to toss in another coin maybe billet my odds hit that thing and bam I'm lighting this thing up like a Christmas tree.
    39:41
    That was pretty cool, too. Now, if you go back to the Don Hooker interview, the first thing that Don talks about in his interview is, hey, before you could even design these machines, you had to understand the odds. You just didn't want this thing to pay out coin after coin after coin after coin. You weren't building a losing machine. you were building a machine that paid out 65-70% because the owner-operator, the mafia, wanted to get the rest of those nickels, right? Well, he made just a quick reference in there, a quick comment in there, and he says, you know, I don't think United ever did that.
    40:27
    You know, I think the United machines were wide open. And from what I can tell, the United Machines are wide open. If you stuffed enough coins in there and you hit enough features and hit the right coin and you hit the right slot, buddy, you were rolling in the money. And there was no, hey, we're going to pay you $25 guaranteed. No, we might pay you $100 and we might pay you more than that. Nobody really knows what this fucking machine is doing.
    41:01
    Yeah. So were those United machines less popular en route? I mean, were they less popular? Well, I'm sorry. I'm skipping around here. My mind's wandering. But earlier you referenced, Danny, well, you know, you mentioned you only had a few machines and you had a United machine. Mm-hmm. Well, what I was trying to tell you back with the Oregon laws and the restrictions, they pretty much raped, purged, would be a better characterization, that took the machines offline as many as they could. I mean, these things are almost incredibly difficult to find. So the ones you do find are in Grandpa's garage, or you might find some in an old VFW, or you might find this, you might find that. And so the really cool thing about the Mexico I have, I paid $25 for it a year ago. Wow. And, dude, I'm going to tell you, the man I went out and bought it on eBay. I hate eBay, by the way. The man I went out and bought it from on eBay, he had a basement full of 27 machines, not pinballs 27 pinballs not bingos he had 27 he had 27 pinballs he had 12 bingos seven of them were united and he said danny i've been posting these on ebay for all all summer and nobody wants to buy them so i thought i went out here for 25 bucks and see where it went and then he started then then he started showing me that hey danny i redid the back glass on this one and i rebuilt this one and I redid this one and I did this and I did that and I did this and I did that. And he was just like some pinball guru, man. And I'm just sitting there thinking, okay, I couldn't have bought a better machine as far as mechanics go. I mean, it was in beautiful condition. The back glass is perfect. The play field is perfect. But the wood rails and the cabinet painting job just totally suck. I mean, it looks like he's 50 years old, and I kind of like that.
    43:21
    But it kind of matched the old school games I liked, and it kind of matched the games that I've been finding out here for 20 years. So I'm a victim of circumstance, happenstance, if you will. You know, hey, these are the machines that I've been able to find. These are the machines that fit my pocketbook. These are the machines I kind of like. These are the machines that are available. I'm going to go ahead and buy a few of them here and there, and hopefully my wife won't divorce me.
    43:54
    That's kind of my evolution. I haven't been a fanatic, but I've been a dedicated player, a dedicated wanderer, somebody that's been interested in the history,
    44:09
    somebody that just kind of wanted to share a little bit with what I've learned, with what I've had that hopefully, when people visit that website, hopefully it'll spark a little bit of interest in these games, and maybe we'll build a next generation. I don't know if you've met Vic Camp.
    44:29
    He's just a wonderful man, a wonderful player, and he's a pinball, fishing, and a bingo guy. And if you follow him, he's out on the Google, and they have groups out there. One of the groups is rec.games.pinball, and there's a few people posting pinball ads. And about six, seven years ago, he posted this pinball ad, and he just said, hey, you know, I'm hoping to gain, I'm hoping to influence, to generate some new interest in these games so this history isn't lost. and so that you know Vic and I have shared a lot obviously we've shared hundreds of emails and I think he's a really super man he's really been a big help for my website and in fact many of the things on my website are from his knowledge, expertise and history but I'm hoping that I can be part of that, it kind of sparks another interest in me. But I'll tell you, man, ever since Jake said that, I've been reaching out to everybody I can to kind of be part of this community.
    45:54
    And so one day I saw what you're doing, and I said, hey, Nicholas has started a really wonderful website.
    46:03
    He's doing some really neat things. So I'm going to write him, and I'm going to say, hey, buddy, is there anything I can do to help support you, and not just because you're into these games, but because you're promoting a wonderful piece of American history, and I want to thank you.
    46:24
    Well, thank you for everything that you've done. I mean, Steve Smith, I don't know if you've heard, but he's the one who got me into these games.
    46:35
    Yeah, I know Steve. He owes me 40 bucks. You son of a bitch. Anyway. All right. Go ahead. But he got me into them, and he pointed me to your site, and, you know, I started reading and didn't stop.
    46:53
    So I've, constantly I'm going back and rereading these stories and picking out new tidbits every once in a while. You know, oh, I didn't remember that, you know.
    47:06
    So I really appreciate what you've done, and thank you. Thank you. And so, Nicholas, you have my phone number. If you ever want to chat again, just give me a call, buddy. Will do. Thanks very much, Danny.
    47:19
    You're very welcome. Talk to you soon. I want to thank my guest, Danny Leach. And you can find Danny's website over at danny.cdyn.com. And thank you for listening. My name again is Nick Baldridge. you can reach me at 4amusementonlypodcast at gmail.com you can listen to us on iTunes, Stitcher, Pocket Cast via RSS, on Facebook, on Twitter at Bingo Podcast, you can find me on Instagram at nbaldridge, and you can listen to us on our website which is 4amusementonly.libsyn.com thank you again for listening and I'll talk to you next time