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Episode 51 - How to Draw Dinosaurs w/ Johnny Crap

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·49m 46s·analyzed·Oct 7, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Johnny Crap on creating five Jurassic Park art packages and transitioning from poster design to pinball.

Summary

Jonathan Bergeron (Johnny Crap), a Montreal-based commercial illustrator, discusses his transition from poster/merch design to pinball art, his work on five Jurassic Park variants for Stern, and his approach to balancing artistic freedom with commercial constraints. He shares insights on the technical and creative differences between pinball art packages and his other media work, and reflects on maintaining creative passion while working professionally.

Key Claims

  • Johnny Crap was referred to Stern by Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) after Greg Freres reached out to him for Jurassic Park

    high confidence · Jonathan Bergeron directly stated this sequence of events in the interview

  • The initial Jurassic Park project (three art packages) had a 7-8 month timeline

    medium confidence · Jonathan said 'we had about seven months to do the tree art package, seven to eight months, I think' but then acknowledged uncertainty and possibility it could have been longer

  • The Universal licensor for Jurassic Park approved Johnny's submitted artwork without requiring any redraws

    high confidence · Jonathan stated 'there's nothing i had to redraw once we submitted to the licensor'

  • The Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary edition is Johnny Crap's personal favorite among the five variants he created

    high confidence · Jonathan said 'i would go with the 30th' and explained he swapped the glass into his personal machine to play with it

  • Greg Freres provided art direction and feedback in a humorous, supportive manner during the Jurassic Park project

    high confidence · Jonathan described: 'if you were really off track he would really tell you like in a humorous way... he was very nice... he kind of like when he gave me the package is like okay you you know you got the gig have fun with it'

  • Sean Erby approached Johnny Crap to create artwork for the homebrew game Eight Ball Beyond, seeking professional-level art vs. photoshopped designs commonly seen in homebrew

    high confidence · Jonathan stated Sean approached him asking 'would you be interested in working on a bill... i'm working on a game but i really want to push it and like hire someone to do the artwork'

  • Johnny Crap comes from the gig poster community and knew Jeremy Packer through that network before pinball

    high confidence · Jonathan explained they 'used to post a lot on like gigposters.com' and 'we knew each other from that' before his pinball work

Notable Quotes

  • “It comes from how I play drums... buddies of mine wanted to start a band i had never played any instrument and i ended up being behind the drums... johnny johnny crap because i played like crap”

    Jonathan Bergeron (Johnny Crap) @ early in episode — Origin story of the artist's professional name/persona

  • “don't go online don't look at any of it like it doesn't matter you do your thing”

    Jeremy Packer (referenced by Jonathan) @ mid-episode — Advice from an established pinball artist to handle online criticism

  • “if you were really off track he would really tell you like in a humorous way... he was very nice... you just do your thing”

    Jonathan Bergeron (describing Greg Freres) @ mid-episode — Characterization of professional art direction approach in pinball

  • “No stress. It's just the biggest name designer probably at the time with one of the biggest licenses in pinball. But you get to do it in half the time, first pinball machine out of the gate.”

    Alan (host) @ mid-episode — Humorous acknowledgment of the pressure on Johnny for his first pinball project

  • “i would say like pick one thing and go with because like my problem is like i love too many things um i have too many hobbies”

    Jonathan Bergeron @ late episode — Jonathan's advice to young artists, reflecting his creative philosophy

  • “i would go with the 30th like the 30th if uh greg sent me a bad glass and uh like right away at first i was like i'm gonna put it on the wall and then i'm like no you know what like i want to play and just see that one”

    Jonathan Bergeron @ mid-episode — Personal attachment to one of his creations, showed it was best enough to keep in his personal machine

  • “the challenging part is really like it's the play field you know because like you you want to show the shots and then at the same time put your touch on it... not gonna distract from like the game itself”

    Jonathan Bergeron @ mid-episode — Technical insight into pinball art design philosophy and constraints

Entities

Jonathan BergeronpersonJeremy PackerpersonGreg FrerespersonJack DangerpersonSean ErbypersonAlanpersonAlex the Waterboyperson

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeremy Packer referred Jonathan Bergeron to Greg Freres at Stern for Jurassic Park project, leveraging their shared gig poster community background

    high · Jonathan stated 'it was jeremy we kind of go way back... we knew each other from that [gigposters.com]... Jeremy referred to Greg Freres. Greg Freres called me up.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Greg Freres provided supportive, humorous art direction that emphasized artist autonomy while maintaining guidance when work was off-track

    high · Jonathan: 'if you were really off track he would really tell you like in a humorous way... when he gave me the package is like okay you you know you got the gig have fun with it'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Universal licensor approved all Jurassic Park artwork submissions without requiring any redraws, suggesting smooth partnership

    high · Jonathan: 'there's nothing i had to redraw once we submitted to the licensor'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jonathan emphasizes balancing artistic expression with functional game communication on playfields, integrating art around inserts without distracting from gameplay

    high · Jonathan: 'the challenging part is really like it's the play field... you want to show the shots and then at the same time put your touch on it and like you know like have your place your art in a way that's not gonna distract from like the game itself'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Initial online backlash about Johnny Crap's identity for Jurassic Park shifted once community recognized his credibility through association with Jeremy Packer and saw the artwork quality

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.149

0:00
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, your host of this podcast, joined in the basement studio of my normal co-host, Alex the Waterboy. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm doing especially good because we have another special guest today. You want to tell us about him? Yeah. Our guest on the show today is a talented commercial illustrator from Montreal, Canada. He's an extremely prolific artist that works in many different mediums, from pencils and inks to acrylic, spray paint, and oil paints. And I'm assuming he also does a lot of his commercial work digitally as well. He's done a lot of tour posters and merch designs for some very big bands, including Mastodon, Guns N' Roses, Primus, Suicidal Tendencies, Anthrax, Slayer, Judas Priest, even the Wu-Tang Clan, amongst many others. And of course, since we are in fact a pinball podcast, he has done art packages for many pinball machines, too, which we will discuss in this episode. He's probably best known by his nom de plume, Johnny Crap. Our guest today is Jonathan Bergeron. Welcome to the show, Johnny. How are you? Hey, how are you guys? I'm good. Doing great. We're happy to have you here. Yeah, it's nice to get, you know, another Canadian on the show. Yeah, well, you're... Well, I'm half Canadian. Yeah, that's true. He's, like, really Canadian, though. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's French-Canadian. I'm a Quebec-Aredo, so, like, it's, you know, it's a bit of a different thing. A different beast. Yep, 100%. So the first thing we got to ask you, like we said on the show, your name's Jonathan. We'll probably call you Jonathan, but most people know you by Johnny Crap. Can you tell us how that artist nickname came to be? Yeah, sure. It comes from how I play drums. long time ago uh buddies of mine wanted to start a band i had never played any instrument and i ended up being behind the drums you know it started with johnny and then johnny johnny crap because i played like crap so thankfully it was like some kind of garage rock that didn't need like skilled drummers so um not strochette on any garage rock i'm like there's plenty of really good ones out there but you know we even recorded at some point and like the uh maximum rock and roll managed like the little zine they uh they did a review of our seven inch i think i they said something like i don't even know how they managed to put fuzz on the drums so you nailed the garage sound yeah i took it as a compliment yeah so you just decide to own it but after that like i started doing like shirts and like designs for posters for gig posters and stuff like that and i figured like johnny crap was kind of like you know it kind of worked in that world so like i i went with that and then the website and everything so i ended up keeping it probably way longer than i should have kept it but you know like people remember it it's memorable and it's sick it's tongue in cheek obviously at this point because your artwork is far from the name yeah but uh yeah that's awesome yeah it's to give a first impression and then you know that way i i go up in the ranking so well i think that's funny i want to talk about your first pinball art package in jurassic park released by stern um it was your first pinball art package and for the pinball community like i really i remember when this happened because a bunch of old people on the internet seemed to be all up in arms because you weren't yet a known name in the pinball hobby at this time and they're all like who is this guy like he's doing my dream theme his name is crap really like all this online kind of like pinball rage bait and then i remember somebody was like oh it's cool guys it's cool he's one of jeremy's friends you know zombie yeti's friends or something like can you tell us like how that came to be like how did how did you get approached to do it was it greg freres that reached out to you jeremy got you in the door or is what something else entirely yeah it was uh it was jeremy we kind of go way back even though like we're not like really close friends like we're we've known of each other's work for a long time especially since we both come from like the gig poster community i used to uh you know we used to post a lot on like gigposters.com which was like a many many artists from like kozik to uh koob like A lot of well-known artists were on that website, but also up-and-comers. A lot of them are really successful poster artists right now. I think we knew each other from that. I can't recall exactly pinpoint the time, but I guess they were looking for an artist to do Jurassic Park. Jeremy referred to Greg Freres. Greg Freres called me up. I did a little test, and it was approved. That's how I got the gig. And they liked it enough that they had you come back and do five total versions of Jurassic Park, which as far as I know is unprecedented. I'm their dinosaur guy.

The backglass is typically where Johnny starts the art package design process to set the tone for the entire piece

high confidence · Jonathan said 'the bad glass is where you would start with... because that's what's gonna set the tone for the whole piece'

  • “the licensor was pretty easy to work with... they sent me some stuff with dinosaurs and then I drew dinosaurs... there's nothing i had to redraw once we submitted to the licensor”

    Jonathan Bergeron @ mid-episode — Smooth approval process contrasts with potential licensing challenges in pinball

    • Stern Pinball
    company
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Eight Ball Beyondgame
    Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary Limited Editiongame
    Jurassic Park Home Editiongame
    Wedgehead Pinball Podcastorganization
    Universalcompany
    Northstarvenue
    Maximum Rock and Rollorganization
    gigposters.comorganization

    medium · Alan noted: 'a bunch of old people on the internet seemed to be all up in arms because you weren't yet a known name... who is this guy... and then i remember somebody was like oh it's cool guys it's cool he's one of jeremy's friends'

  • ?

    content_signal: Jonathan's Instagram posting frequency declined after signing pinball NDAs, reducing content visibility due to inability to share work-in-progress pinball projects

    high · Jonathan: 'I signed some NDAs and I couldn't post anything that I was working on during the day so yeah you know so my my Instagram stopped growing'

  • ?

    product_launch: Five distinct Jurassic Park art packages created by Johnny Crap: Pro, Premium, LE, 30th Anniversary Limited Edition, and Home Edition (Costco release)

    high · Alan: 'they had you come back and do five total versions of Jurassic Park... the regular Jurassic Park Cornerstone title has the Pro, Premium, and LE... 30th anniversary limited edition... jack danger's home pin has another art package'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Eight Ball Beyond exhibited at shows in Seattle, Chicago, and Portland; Jurassic Park Home Edition available at Costco locations

    high · Jonathan: 'played it uh played it in seattle and chicago too' regarding Eight Ball Beyond; discussion of Jurassic Park Home Edition at Costco

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jonathan notes that digital workflow enables faster iteration and layer-based changes vs. traditional hand-painted approach, potentially explaining modern art quality improvements despite compressed timelines

    high · Jonathan: 'the fact that we work on computers now like speeds up that kind of process... you can change things and do it faster in layers... back then they had to paint it by hand so like if you mess up you gotta fix it by hand'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Sean Erby explicitly commissioned professional artwork for Eight Ball Beyond rather than relying on photoshop/amateur design, signaling trend toward higher-quality homebrew presentations

    high · Jonathan: 'Sean... approached me... i'm working on a game but i really want to push it and like hire someone to do the artwork instead of just like you know putting something together on photoshop'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Jonathan personally prefers Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary backglass enough to swap it into his personal machine for gameplay rather than wall display, indicating collector-level attachment

    high · Jonathan: 'greg sent me a bad glass and uh like right away at first i was like i'm gonna put it on the wall and then i'm like no you know what like i want to play and just see that one... so like yeah yeah yeah i swapped it with the other one'

    • 5:06
    Yeah, even amongst different releases of the same themes, like Greg's done three different Elviras, but they're obviously very different eras and stuff. But what was it like doing five Jurassic, for listeners at home, the regular Jurassic Park Cornerstone title has the Pro, Premium, and LE, which all have different art packages. and then there was also the 30th anniversary limited edition which has its own unique art package and then jack danger's home pin has another art package what was the process like i guess what were the difficulties of trying to do five games same theme similar i mean some overlapping assets and stuff but giving them all their own unique flavor yeah the the first one i was new to pinball like it's really not a world that i knew very much of i'm old enough to have been in arcades where like you know in the 90s like early 80s to mid 90s like there was a lot of there was an arcade where i grew up where we used to go like it was right next to the cinema and we used to go for double features like back then it was a thing you know you went to see a movie you'd see too that was great but like right next to it there was an arcade so like i my first memories of like pinball was playing some of those i've always been interested in like the artwork and stuff so like i'm the same with comics and stuff like like i don't really read them but i'm always looking at them like i'm always like if you know my comic book store i would pick up a comic and just look at the art in it and stuff like that so that was like my main contact with pinball when i was brought in to do jurassic park like of course like when greg frayer started explaining to me like everything i had to do and like explaining to me like you know sending me a file of like the white wood and stuff like that i was like all right what the hell is that you know yeah what do i do with that you know they guide me through it and uh like it went fairly well it was nice working with them i mean uh i was i was happy with it like i mean there's always people who are not gonna be happy with like what you did no matter what sometimes you know like we see it still with recent games like they come out everybody's up in arms and then once they play it they don't look at the art anymore you know they just play it so like it's always like a bit of a you know and jeremy told me like don't look at that stuff you know don't yeah don't go online don't look at any of it like it doesn't matter you do your thing and uh of course i went to book i went to look you know oh no yeah we talked to greg freris on the show and we asked him about that because the artwork in pinball machines did go through like you know like a dip in the early 2000s you know it wasn't illustrated anymore uh and a lot of pinball fans like myself were you know we were bummed but now it's gotten so good again and but there's still just people that just will never be happy and it's just funny to see like a lot of these uh armchair quarterbacks like just being like i know you you have no artistic ability at all like it's kind of like how dare you criticize this art package i mean people pay a lot of money for those games you know like i i understand like there's a lot of people who don't buy them and still criticize everything that's another thing but i did listen to that greg freres episode like it was a great episode and it's nice to hear him talk about it too you know we had some of those discussions with him too in private and like i like i get it at the same time but you know we do like every artist tries to do his best like there's there's no no one goes in like i'm saying like i'm gonna do the worst art package ever yeah exactly and at the same time like you know people i think like they judge everything by like the old games and the old games like i do think like the artists had like a lot more freedom to just express themselves you know like a lot of them were like painted yeah hand like if i had my say on a game one day like i would love to do like a whole art package painted by hand you know like not just inked and then colored just like all painted by hand like i would love to do that but you know like we're kind of like in a different era where like everything needs to be approved but every single person that has a you know a hand in a movie or like in a comic book or whatever that is like the music like the likeness of the people like you know if you look in the 90s games like if you look at the likeness of some of those characters right from the movies on the back glass like they're way off you know like sometimes intentionally to not use the likeness and sometimes just maybe didn't hit the mark yeah um yeah i mean it's like a mix of the two you know like yeah i'm just happy i managed to do the fingers of nedry right i wanted to ask you about that i was like did you ever think about just putting hot dog fingers on them just because that's a classic pinball no it's like a ocd and me would be like no i gotta fix those fingers so uh you know it was just kind of funny like because i remember seeing that as a review well at least he fixes his fingers like he can't convince everyone that like you're good enough for any art package you know like it's like i had like a lot of good comments and uh and the thing about redoing they approached me to do the home version after i was pretty happy because like i was first of all i was happy to work with jack to working with keith like you know it was like new in the hobby um but i've been playing since you know like i really got into it you know i still go at league I play here locally with like at Northstar. I'm going to mention them. Yeah. Yeah, nice. It's my local spot. But they were all like super nice to me. You know, like they weren't too hard on me at first when I had like zero skills. And so just to make sure that I would keep going, you know, now they're hard on me. Good, good. Some good players and they let me know when I'm fucking up. But, you know, like just working with Jack Danger was kind of like nice because like he's a bit of an artist too. Yeah. You know, he has a bit of a background there. So like there was, you know, a bit of an exchange sometimes like, oh, can you do this? Can you like, you know, like he had a vision too for some stuff. And he also gave me the opportunity to retouch the play field. You know, as an artist, there's always stuff that bugs you. Yeah. So if you have like a chance to redo certain things, like you would do them differently. So I did some of that. And then they approached me for the 30th, which was like, it was nice, you know. But like, yeah, I told Greg, I'm like, I can always become a paleontologist.
    11:38
    Once the pinball thing doesn't pick up. Yeah, you start getting Jurassic Park fatigue. No, well, I mean, it's a nice license, you know. like i can't complain about that like and i think like i i really enjoyed working on the 30th like i approached it differently too yeah that game in particular is gorgeous i really love the package you did for that one so it seems like maybe they'll just keep having you do dinosaurs you're gonna just keep getting better and better so can you tell us johnny how different the process was from like your other commercial work like all the band posters and merch that you do like I mean, I know pinball machines are kind of like three-dimensional amusement devices, and they have a ton of surface area, all of which, you know, you need to cover in art. But can you describe to us like the differences between the two a little bit to the layperson the listener like how challenging it is to do a pinball art package versus something I mean everything I sure is challenging to you and you take it very seriously but I imagine pinball brings its own challenges. Yeah, it's like a different medium. Like I think like the t-shirt, like you're really like shooting for like a really big impact on a small surface, you know, like you need like to get the eye of the people. like a pinball machine has like more slides, more like, you know, like there's light, there's, you know, a lot to play with to get the people to look at it, you know? So like a t-shirt, like, it's always like, you're trying to find the thing that hasn't been done that many times. Not just to repeat like whatever is always, you know, like if you do a lot of guns and roses at some point, like you try not to repeat yourself all the time. It's a bit like doing a lot of dinosaurs. Like if you do a lot of guns and roses t-shirt, You don't want just like the skull and the guns all the time. So it's like pinball is a three-dimensional object. You try to have an impact on every, each part of it. What do you normally start with? Like where do you start on a pinball machine and what part do you find the most challenging? I would imagine like the play field or the plastics, they seem challenging to me because they're like non-standard like canvases and shapes and stuff. but we want to hear from a professional yeah you uh like most of the time i think like the the bad glass is where you would start with okay what you would start with because um that's what's gonna set the tone for the whole piece this is what you know people will look at first uh from far from you know like usually the sides there's always like another well not all the time but like most of the time there's games on each side of it so right you know you kind of lose the side right away so the bad glass is very much like where i would start the challenging part is really like it's the play field you know because like you you want to show the shots and then at the same time put your touch on it and like you know like have your place your art in a way that's not gonna distract from like the game itself yeah i'm like playing the game and communicating to the player yeah and uh also like you know like you said like the plastics you know you're trying to create like an effect of tree dimension you know with plastics so like you're you have to play with that it's like it can be like the first time like i did a play field like it was very confusing like it was like but now when i open a file i'm like okay this goes there like you know like you see yet a bit more. Right. When you're doing a play field specifically, because play fields will have inserts, you know, that have to be there to communicate stuff. And the art will oftentimes be integrated with those inserts. Like Jurassic Park, your first game has the big island, right? Did they tell you specifically? I've always been curious, like, was Keith like, OK, you got to put an island in the middle of the game? Or is that kind of a case by case basis? Like sometimes they kind of tell you and sometimes you kind of lay things out and they're like, oh, that makes sense. How much of that is kind of communicated beforehand versus kind of figuring it out as you go? Yeah. Like the island was there from the get-go because like they had the trajectory already, you know, like all the inserts. Like that was the basically, you know, let's start with the island. The island's there. It's central. And then I built around that, you know. Okay. Basically, like you see like what the shots mean, you know, which area is what. And then like you try to come up with something that works with it. Before we, you know, kind of move on from Jurassic Park a little bit, can you tell us, do you have a personal favorite amongst all the variants? I know sometimes this is like asking an artist. Greg referred to it as like, I can't choose amongst my kids. But I've also known plenty of artists who I've worked with that they absolutely will choose their favorite kids. Greg chose his least favorite kid. Yeah, he did go, I do not like hard body. Yeah, that is funny. I would say like, you know, it's a bit easier to choose because they're all dinosaurs. like yeah between between the five i i think i would go with the 30th like the 30th if uh greg sent me a bad glass and uh like right away at first i was like i'm gonna put it on the wall and then i'm like no you know what like i want to play and just see that one so like yeah yeah i swapped it with the other one so uh the other one's gonna go on the wall the translate's gonna go on the wall but the glass the glass stays in the game like yeah yeah stays in the game yeah that's sick. The 30th is probably, that's gotta be my favorite. Although I really like, I really like the package that ended up on the home pen. Me too. I like that home pen a lot in general though. So that thing is just always, I like the way the home plan plays too. That game is a lot of fun. I still haven't played it. Oh really? Wow. Yeah, no, they, there was one here like in the, in the showroom, but I think I missed my opportunity. I don't think it's there now. Damn. And there's no Costco around here, but yeah, at least that carries. That's a, Like, hopefully they'll have it in Canada too, so, like, I can go and try it. Go find one at least somewhere. Yeah. I like the box too. They did a really nice box for that one, so. Yeah. I don't know if you've seen it. Like, it's, you know, they printed the play field. It's not just a brown box. It's, like, a nice printed box. And, like, in the front, it's, like, it's, like, the full play field in the front. So it's really nice. That's kind of sick. I didn't realize they did any designs on any other boxes. Yeah. I want the box, you know. Yeah, I want the box. Someone send Johnny a box, man. Come on. Yeah, you can keep that game, I guess, but don't want the box. Put that game on location for a week or something near you. Yeah.
    18:04
    So I guess we got to ask you, like, how long does a modern, like, full art package, like, you're doing your first game here, Jurassic Park, like, how long does that take you? And what was, like, the deadline for that first Jurassic Park run? We have to do three art packages. And do you find that more strenuous than your other work, like juggling multiple gigs for different bands and merch and all that kind of stuff? I wouldn't say it's like more or less than my other work. Like, I think like we had about seven months to do the tree art package, seven to eight months, I think. That seems short. Doesn't that seem like a short timeline? I think it's like about a year, like usually. Okay. So they gave you an even shorter deadline for your first time? From what I remember, it was about that, like seven to eight months. No stress. It's just the biggest name designer probably at the time with one of the biggest licenses in pinball. But you get to do it in half the time, first pinball machine out of the gate. You got it, kid.
    19:09
    Right. Well, I could be wrong. Maybe it was then. I don't know. But from what I recall, I think Greg told me, like, okay, you're going to have about seven to eight months to do this. So, you know, maybe, maybe it's stretched a bit longer than that. Like, you know, sometimes they change some stuff on the whitewood or whatever. It gives the artists a little bit of time. Get a little bit more. Yeah. But it was like, it went fairly, fairly well. Like, I mean, the licensor was pretty easy to work with. Of course, there was no lightness really on it. You know, they sent me some stuff with dinosaurs and then I drew dinosaurs. dinosaurs and like uh emblem emblem was like pretty uh pretty cool approving stuff like it went really well so nice they're like there's nothing i had to redraw once we submitted to the licensor so no that's good that's kind of nice keep it on track yeah schedule wise oh i guess before we leave stern to talk about some of the other games you worked on we mentioned him in passing greg fraris former art director on the show he gave us a lot of cool insights into the artistic side of pinball machines but what can you tell us about working with greg on jurassic park and was he able to give you any good advice that you remember on how to approach like a pinball machine project what i liked about him was like if you were really off track he would really tell you like in a humorous way you know so but it was nice to work with him like he was very nice uh you can tell like he loved artists like respects what they do and you know like he kind of like when he gave me the package is like okay you you know you got the gig uh have fun with it you know like just do your thing and you know like you it was fairly cool to work with like i really enjoyed it and we kept in touch after that like you know we chatted now and then like sometime i would try to get other projects like it you know didn't pan out but you know whenever they had a dinosaurs to do they would call you up and be like hey you want to do another one you know and i'm like yeah yeah For sure. So, but it was great working with him. Yeah, I loved it. That's awesome. Yeah, Greg's awesome. I really liked, too, like, when he was talking about, like, how they used to do things to, back in the days, you know, like, cutting ruby-lit and all that. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Cell screening stuff. It brought me back because, like, I used to cell screen posters, too. Okay, yeah. And, you know, I had ruby-lit. Like, I remember cutting it. And, like, whenever I was, like, listening to him, like, talk about that stuff, I was like, man, like, I was just born, like, probably 20 years too late. You know, I would I would have loved all that crazy work that they did back then. So part of the process just seems like so fun. It seems so satisfying to do all of that. And I'm not a very artistic person, but I do like the production side of the art like that. Yeah, we went into that. I was a little bit concerned about going that deep into the process for an episode, but that's what interests me. So I definitely want to ask him more about it. I love seeing and hearing about that. I mean, I think you were like such a natural choice to be a pinball artist, because from what I heard from talking about Greg, especially in the modern era, it's like they're expecting a lot of art in a short amount of time. And so you have to be a very seasoned and confident illustrator to get all of that done under deadlines. And you like I follow you on Instagram and I love your work. And I'm just like I follow lots of artists. I have a lot of artist friends. You are just so prolific, or at least you also show your work, I guess, on Instagram more than maybe some others. But like you're always putting out new work. I mean, and you still do paintings and drawings. It seems like just for fun, like for yourself. What's your advice to young artists and creatives on how to like keep that like kind of creative joy alive when you turn your passion for art into a job? I would say like pick one thing and go with because like my problem is like i love too many things um i have too many hobbies like most of my hobbies like you know consists of fun stuff that i like to do i love painting i love drawing but i i also love discovering like new mediums and that's a bit of a problem instead of really pushing like let's say i'm painting with oils if i just painted with oils with oils for like five six years ten years like non-stop i would get a lot better but i keep switching between oils acrylics a gouache just love mediums you know like and learning them and like struggling for a bit but then you figure out some stuff and you're like okay i can work with it that way and this one goes dries faster i can do this faster or like deliver a job sometime paint it or um i love inking by too so i think nowadays like you don't have any choice like you kind of have to work digitally like you have to be on on the computer and like because people want to be able to move a little piece of your artwork like two inches next to the insert instead of above it i think it like the the fact that we work on computers now like speeds up that kind of process you know maybe that's why like the the artwork got so much better you can change things and do it faster in layers and stuff like that back then they had to hurry up and you know paint something like they didn't have as much time but they had to paint it by hand so like if you mess up you gotta fix it by hand yeah so like it's it's it's a different process you know like they they put out a lot of games now, so the artist needs to go fast, too. Yeah keep up Honestly it inspiring I love seeing it so I hoping anyone that listening to this episode already follows you on Instagram but you should I just saw you You painted a whole wall mural over a weekend of like My Neighbor Totoro for I think your daughter room while she was out you said at camp or something Yeah. You're like painting a whole wall. It was a small wall. I just mean like, like that is, it's just inspiring to watch you create art. That's what, that's all. Like, I love seeing your finished art packages, but really what I like more than that is like, I love that you show like, Hey, I'm working on an oil painting today. You know, Hey, Hey, like here's some ink sketches. Yeah. I used to, I used to do a lot more of like, of that, like on Instagram. like I used to post like like it was insane how much I was posting back then like sometimes three times a day one time I'd be painting like uh with oils the like up night I'd be like sketching and I think that's how I built up my Instagram like people were following me more and more and uh at some point like I worked like I started working in pinball and I signed some NDAs and I couldn't post anything that I was working on during the day so yeah you know so my my Instagram stopped growing, but, uh, you know, I'll blame the algorithm for that. It's very cool. I, I can understand what you're saying where you're like, yeah, it'd be better to focus, but I will just say that for myself, I'm a kindred spirit in the sense that like, I am drawn to things that I'm not good at. And so I'm always looking to pick up different skills, whether it was, you know, I've worked in kitchens. I grew up, uh, I was, I did graphic design in high school and into college you know now i fixed pinball machines part of doing the podcast was like i don't know how to do this either i i love being bad at things and then getting better and then trying something else oh for sure like i i love like when i see other artists like doing stuff i'm like i'll do the are they doing that like and i need to figure it out like i if it's digital like i oh i turn on like clip studio or whatever i saw the guy work on and i try to figure it out you know like it is the same with oil painting or you know if i see tricks i'm like oh what did he just do like i've never thought of that and then like i try it if it's for me it's for me i keep it and i keep going with it but like sometimes like like ways of working it's not necessarily your thing so but it's it's part of the discovery too you know it's like uh it's interesting yeah for sure and i think that that interest in the variety is definitely like the passion and that comes through with your art package yeah we can see i i just want to say to the listener who doesn't follow you yet and should i just like you can see the passion and that's what i think what's cool about seeing you work and i want to thank you for sharing it with us because i am the type of person that loves seeing it thank you so since jurassic park after your work with stern you've done three other art packages for pinball machines one that's uh very impressive to us was on the eight ball beyond homebrew we actually had sean erby on the show previously and we had the game on the floor at wedgehead uh recently too so the people out in portland actually got a chance to play it i'm guessing oh you probably played it at a show or something i bet yeah played it uh played it in seattle and chicago too oh very cool yeah so what was the process like developing the back glass and play field for sean's game versus doing a commercial project did you enjoy like the the freedom with that or was sean you know dictating orders yeah he rules with a heavy hand i bet yeah sean like i never want to work with that he was uh no he approached me he's like you know would you be interested in working on a bill like on a game that like you didn't tell me it'd all be on at first he's like you know i'm working on a game but i really want to push it and like hire someone to do the artwork instead of just like you know putting something together on photoshop or asking a friend that barely knows photoshop to do something you know like sometimes sometimes like homebrew games are like awesome but sometimes what's lacking is like the little punch at the end you know that just putting artwork on it 100 yeah so uh so you approached me for that and i was like i was kind of like in between dinosaur game i believe so i was like yeah you know what like i don't have any pinball projects right now i can do something for you and he gave me a pretty much freedom like he he told me like what the game would be about uh you know a rough idea of what he wanted and then i came up with some characters you know like traded the like exchanged some um some rough ideas with him sent him some sketches and then we went from there easy to work with and uh it was nice yeah he had like when it was time for the play field though like we uh i'm like okay just send me the file for the play field and i was like well what kind of file like what do you need you know yeah and uh he didn't know really what i needed that i'm like oh i think i need this kind of file and so we figured it out and then uh it was fun to work on a different play field too because like it had like a different field than the other games i was i i worked on yeah very fun game to play too Oh, yeah, it's an awesome game. It's a super fun game. And it came together. And you're right, 100% where, and this is not a criticism on these people that are creating a pinball machine and being passionate. We do look at some of them and you're just like, man, especially when someone like you is like, hey, if I have the time and you want to pay me some money, like I would, you'll do it. You're so, you're so involved in the pinball community now. I see you illustrating for different show posters, different leagues, different places that will commission you and you'll give them a T-shirt design or you'll give them a poster design or whatever. And that's so cool. It's so cool to have a working pinball artist that's also like, we'll come on a podcast like this and talk to just pinball nerds. So we appreciate that. And I think that's just very, very cool that you did that. You know, I'm kind of new to the hobby, too. So, like, I'm not mad at anyone yet.
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    You know what I mean? That's good. So it makes me appreciate the community aspect of pinball. And, you know, when I get approached for, like, a pinball league, like, it's always fun to do a pinball league T-shirt. You know, like, I try to make it, like, so it works with, like, either what they had in mind or, like, for their location or whatever. So that's always fun to do. But yeah, like, no, I like to get involved in the community to, you know, not just to be a guy that comes from outside, like take the job and then gets out. You know, like I really it's not a world I was aware of. And, you know, I'm glad I added that to my hobby lists. Cool to follow you. And then, you know, you'll be going to a show like you went to the Tacoma show and then you get to be like you go out and you see the other pinball spots and you'll take pictures of like old classic games. And I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Like he's into pinball now. It's like I've seen you get into pinball and it seems like Jeremy's gotten into pinball. And Chris Franchi, who's another artist that's done pinball machines, like they both admitted that they weren't pinball guys before they started doing pinball. And then now not only do they illustrate art packages, but they also will like play pinball. Yeah. You know, and that's that's very cool. We like seeing the people that make the games also, you know, get caught by the pinball bug, too, just like us. We got to talk about, you know, you did two other games that we want to talk about so far. And you did another original theme for the P3 platform, which is like a modular pinball platform. And you worked with designer Scott Denisey for a game called Final Resistance. It has a different form factor than the standard pinball table. Did this change your approach at all? Or like, what were your thoughts about working on that platform in that game? uh it was like they approached me at the same time that i was working on sean's game i think like scott was visiting a friend here in montreal that friend brought him to um like i was working on a mural at the time so he brought like scott and we chatted a bit and then he hit me up like maybe a month later or something like that and he's like okay i'm working on a game with uh multimorphic would you be interested in working with me and i was like yeah for sure like you know i knew scott of uh from the tna and stuff like that and uh i really enjoyed that game even though it's brutal uh you know i yeah it was great so so i was happy to work with him you know the platform's different but yeah no we like from the get-go like scott wanted to treat it like pinball you know like just pinball pinball so basically like i had to have a play field that looks like just a regular pinball game you know we went with that like i think the way we worked together was pretty uh you know like a good team up like it was really like a good exchange of ideas and uh like it was a lot of fun to do i created the characters for him and all that stuff like he had like a like he kept saying that he had like he was like a crappy art director but like he was really like he had like his id set on like certain things and like it was easy to to go through them and like you know realize the the final product he seems to sell himself short on a lot of stuff it's kind of like calling yourself johnny crap when you're a really amazing different talented artist in different mediums yeah it's a stick you know like realize that you had done so for any listeners that haven't seen a P3 pinball machine, they have a touchscreen-like display for the bottom two-thirds of the playfield. And I didn't realize you had done the actual art for that section of the playfield too. I figured that was kind of on Scott. That's interesting. Basically, we wanted to treat that screen like it was just a white wood, like with something printed. That's what we did. And then there's some animation on top of it that makes it look cool. and like, you know, like that makes it like a P3, but it was like a bit like, I'd say a step back from like the other games that they had into bringing it. More like a traditional, yes. Yeah. Traditional pinball. I really like the approach you guys took with that, with the fixed inserts and stuff. We were just talking about that before we started recordings. We're looking at pictures. That was a good call. That makes the P3 more feel like a traditional pinball machine, which I think is what that platform needs. So I just, I'm a big fan of your work on that one. Thank you. Your most recent game was for the new manufacturer, Barrels of Fun, which is based in Texas, and you did the play field and a back glass for Labyrinth. Tell us about diving back into licenses again, you know, after doing two original themes. How was it working with the Jim Henson estate? Were you a fan of that movie growing up? I guess, what was that whole experience like? Yeah, I can't say I was like a fan, but I have seen them. I have seen that movie many times when I was younger. I'm a fan of Ensign, though. What they did was incredible. I grew up with the Muppets and all that stuff. So when they approached, David approached me for... The artwork was already started on the cabinet, so I didn't do the cabinet. It was already... I forget the name of the artist. That was done, but they were looking for... David was looking for someone who could do a play field, basically. You know, like, I think the other artist was probably not comfortable, like, working on a play field. When is the first time you see a play field and you're not a player? I can attest to that.
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    You're like, ah, shit, like, I did five of these my first time out of the gate. This is easy. And I think David, like, didn't want to deal with that, too, like, explaining it and, like, you know, taking someone by the hand, like, to get it through the process. so it can be quite arduous. I took the gig just to do a playfield. It was fun to work on I really tried to push the That playfield has kind of like an old school feel a bit oh yeah because like i painted i painted everything like i mean it was digital but like everything was each brick was painted by hand you know like so it was very much uh you can tell labor of love i would say yeah yeah when it came out like people were like is that like real bridge in the middle you know so i love that play field in the perspective you put on it it feels we bring him up a lot on the show about Python Angelo in his work on the Williams games back in the day with the force perspective. That's a big comparison, but thank you. I'll take it. It feels reminiscent of that, but very true to the theme. I just love that play field. And then, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt because from there you went on to the back glass. Yeah, no, like I think it was doing well on the play field. So like David asked me to do the alternate back glass, you know, they wanted to have a aftermarket kind of back glass for people who wanted something else than just Bowie. Like, basically, the assignment was to not put Bowie on the alternate bagless. Yes, right. So I was like, I'm cool with that. You know, like, all those creatures are super fun to draw. That was a lot of fun to work on. Like, I really enjoyed the process. And, like, it was very much, you know, it was their first game, too. So there was, like, you know, along the way, there was some delays that gave me more and more time to refine that play field you know like sometimes it'd be like okay we move an insert by a half an inch sorry but you're gonna have to fix that area and every time i would open that file at first i'd be like oh damn it i gotta you know dive back into that play field but then after like half an hour i was like just like doing more bricks in a different area or refining like something else like i was like you know this can be better so like it gave me more chances to fix the problems along the waves the that makes a lot of sense when you look at it because this thing is so it had time to cook and it's like every single like the whole thing it's all cobblestone and every cobblestone is a different cut everyone is a different variety like there's so much texture i just yeah the texture and the shadow work and it's a gorgeous play field if anyone's not seen a labyrinth in person the art package on the play field especially it's phenomenal your back glass is better i mean not nothing against the bowie one but like i mean it's it's good it's theme appropriate and i like david bowie but so i still had my chance to do bowie on the art blades like i did the oh you did the blades too i forgot about that yeah so um so yeah so i got my little piece of bowie in there that's very cool i want to i guess i want to ask you since you're an artist and you're you know a fan of pinball and now I've seen you travel and you go to shows, you've gotten to see a lot of pinball and much like you discussed, you're drawn just like comic books to pinball and its history of art. I just want to ask you, since you've been a pinball artist for the last five years or so, what other pinball artists or artists from the past or present are you most impressed by or that you stop and you go, I have to know who that is or whatever. Are there any games in particular, or any artists in particular that inspire you or that you really enjoy their work? I love the Medieval Madness, Bad Glass. Yeah. Like, that's one of my, like, at some point I'm going to have to get one. Like, I just love it. Like, the way it's hand-painted.
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    What's his name? John Yowsey. Yowsey, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love a lot of his artwork. Yeah, me too. I love Yowsey. Some of the old ones, like, I don't know who the artists are, but like uh stuff like sorcerer oh yeah oh dude sorcerer is so sick like those that that era of sword and sorcery kind of like games like the the artwork on that stuff is just like so incredible like i love that stuff yeah it seems like a lot of us that like like the metal kind of album cover artwork are drawn to those 80s fantasy games and they some of them nail that vibe so well sorcerer's a good game too for sure yeah pam erickson yeah i love those kind of yeah i love those those art package that's what i like about like going to those shows to like you know like you walk like to the back of the room and all of a sudden like you fall in love with like like a weird game that like yeah you know sometimes it doesn't even play that well but it's so beautiful that you're like yeah whatever like i don't care like it's just like so much fun i drained like three times in like you know 15 seconds but like i just i just want to play it again so like just because it's they're so beautiful you know yep when we we recently we went out to ohio and there's this place out there pastimes that has just hundreds and hundreds of pins and they have a whole row of italian games some of the artwork on those italian games the games aren't the best sometimes but the artwork was just like breathtaking and we did exactly that where you're like i don't really even care if the game's good because it's just fun looking at them beautiful games yeah it's a it's a piece of art you know it's like uh it's like a sculpture almost you know yep with like all that nice artwork on it like it's it's you know something i something i could just display in my living room even though even if i wouldn't play it you know like it's just like there's just so nice those games yeah it's playable art and after being in the hobby for you know almost 20 years it's just i still like when we went to pastimes like alex was saying it's like that was like opening a whole new door because I was like whoa we're gonna see like 200 games that I didn't even know existed like at all and I've been a pinball nerd for a long time and I was like oh no information on these games you're like wow very cool stuff very weird stuff but I think pinball to me is like it's very much some players you know it's all about the shots and the feeling and yeah i'm that way too like i want a game to shoot well and i want to feel good and uh but the art is always to me what draws me into games it what keep it keeps me engaged i love looking at like little plastics i work on games so sometimes i get to see like hidden behind a lane or something near a rail guide there'll be a funny little drawing of something and that's like sort of hidden by the artist and i love finding that stuff i love seeing like little easter eggs and just appreciating the fine details. It's nuts with art on pinball machines because it's the first thing that new games get judged by. And for a lot of us, the art is what keeps the games in our houses. Because like you said, it is a piece of artwork. It's a huge thing sitting there. And so it's just a very, very important piece of the puzzle. There's cool ugly too sometimes. Oh, yeah. That's its own thing. Some really hideous games. And I'm like, man, it's like so ugly that it's kind of nice. Some of them are endearing. You really went there. Jonathan, you got to give us some. What one comes to mind? Without hurting anyone's feeling. I can't do that. You can't do that? Okay. I'm bad with names anyway. I have terrible memories. So I see games in my head. That's how we feel about a lot of the Python Angelo games on here. Some of the Python games I find to be grotesque. Some of them I like them a lot. Some of them I like them. He's the most confusing artist to me of all the pantheon of legendary pinball artists. It's like, because I'll look at a game like Pinbot or Bride and be like, this is gorgeous. And then there are some games where I'm like... You see like Comet and stuff and you're like, what the hell is going on here? Yeah, it's weird. And it kind of makes me unsettled even a little bit, a little bit unsettled. That's a one of a kind artist, you know. I know. It's captivating. He's just uncompromising and just doing his thing. So, I mean, I don't think you can't have that anymore. That's the beauty of that era, I think.
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    It's like, you know, it's like the movies I used to watch in the 80s. Like, most of them would never be made today. You know, like, things have changed for the better. Yep. You know, but at the same time, if you take those things in those years, they were pretty great, you know? What kind of 80s movies are you talking about, Jonathan? like weird science is my like yeah whatever favorite movie yeah but you know i've always said to myself like you know i'm gonna watch it with my son one day and now he's like and you're already past the age of that i watched it at and i still can't just sit down and just yeah it's a racy movie like really i'm like come on man it's gonna he's gonna have to just find it on his own i feel like yeah i'm gonna have to leave it on leave the door like i don't know i'll be back later well we want to thank you for coming on and and joining us on the on the show jonathan you've been very generous i know you're on the east coast there so this is a late night for you but we really appreciate you agreeing to do the show we're big fans of the work that you do I can't wait to see more of it. Are you going to be in Expo this year? I'm trying to work on that. I have actually a lot of stuff to do, but I'm trying to finish as much as possible to be able to make it. So it's going to be a last-minute decision, but I'd say I'm like 92% sure that I'm going to make it. That's good. That's pretty good odds. So maybe 91%. I mean, maybe. Just maybe. I went a little high there. I really wish, I really hope I can make it. Well, I look forward to, if I can, I look forward to meeting you there. I'll be there this year. Oh, same. Yeah, but I appreciate you for all the listeners. What we always do at the end of these shows is go find one of these Johnny Crap Illustrated games and play it. Listen to this. Go find a Jurassic Park. They should be everywhere. Labyrinths are shipping out, and you're seeing more and more of those. the final resistance i haven't got to play one yet but i'm hoping that they'll have one at expo because i really want to play that and we were fortunate enough to have the eight ball beyond that we got to play and yeah it's hopefully up in seattle again now right it's back in seattle and i was talking to sean and he's even considering letting us put it on our free play floor for a couple months in the near future so we might be doing that and you might get to play that game if you're a local portlander and if any pinball manufacturers are listening to this please hire Jonathan to do a weird science art package, full oil painting. Yeah, dude. And, you know, I know you're busy, but. Conan. Oh, my God. Okay. Yeah. Well, we'll end on that. Oh.
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    Like, I want a Conan game now. That'd be so cool. Especially if you could do an oil painted coat. That would be like. If you could do painted like Frazetta. Oh, my God. Well, I mean, no one can paint like Frazetta, but, you know. Oh, but, like, you're like a chameleon. That's what you said. You're a chameleon of styles, like, and I've seen it. You're skilled, and, oh, that would be cool. Now I'm getting excited. Yeah, somebody make a Conan game now. Come on now. Come on. Come on now. All right. For everyone else listening, we want to thank you for listening to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. Until next time, good luck. Don't suck. Let me tell you the days of high adventure.
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