Especially this year where we had another variation of the idea that somehow New York City legalizing pinball saved pinball in some way. But as a person who was operating pinball several years before that, I know that New York City was just jealous of the rest of the country, like jealous of New Robert Englunds. We were running pinball and everything was fine. But it does raise that question, where did pinball get that bad reputation? And why is it that prior to 1969, pretty much all the magazine articles and what little other publication there was about pinball. There were two things. One is, look at these weird people who play pinball, and most of it was pinball is bad. It's like taking kids' lunch money. It's gambling, et cetera, et cetera. So now we're going to get a deep dive into where that came from and why some of it might even have a grain of truth. So we're going to separate truth from fiction with Ryan Banfield. Welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. That's just a little bit higher. Yeah, so my name is Ryan Banfield, and I'm a PhD candidate at NYU in the Cinema Studies Department. Before I start, I just have to say thank you to David for inviting me. Thank you so much to the Gagno family, Todd Tuckey, everyone who's been really supportive, George Gomez, Jack Winari, best guy I know, the Sharp family, and Rob and Bridget Burke, who have just been really, really helpful with my work and supporting me, allowing me to go to Pinball Expo and interview people. So I plan to do five things in my talk today. First, I will introduce the framework for pinball being illegal. Many have compared it to the gambling industry, specifically slot machines while they both had similar mechanics such as the payout feature they surely ended on different sides of history as one is only allowed in casinos or establishments that allow slot machines and pinball machines are considered to be amusement devices with some caveats more on that in a bit I will define why it was illegal by looking at a few court cases, state laws and federal laws. I will discuss why pinball was considered a gambling game and how the workarounds were meant to counteract that, including William H. Bellows' free game, the knockoff switch, payout games, and add a ball. And I acknowledge that there are other workarounds, such as bingo games and then special when lit, but I won't get into those for time's sake. But the focus of this is to look at Fiorello LaGuardia via his archives. I did a deep dive into his archives for the second chapter of my book project. As he was notable for clearing New York City of Crime, his World War II effort, and his special interests also to use pinball for his police squad. We'll get to that. So this is my contribution to the topic, kind of the archival information that I really got into. And lastly, I will analyze Pinball post-LaGuardia. As he left it in a messy limbo, he and other politicians certainly damaged the game's reputation, as it was largely confined to adult bookstores, which many of you might have seen in the sharp Pinball, The Man Who Saved the Game. I argue that entertainment was becoming less censored slash frowned upon via the decline of the classical Hollywood system and the rise of New Hollywood as well as controversial and violent video games were starting to become a thing or more tolerated in 1976. So that's a key year, obviously, and I'll get to that. And also Hollywood, movies, what we know that sells in pinball is movie and film tie-ins. So pinball being destroyed. Perhaps the most distinctive feature about pinball's history is that it was outlawed in numerous cities and states in the U.S. and the game was attacked federally via the Johnson Act of 1951, which is largely still in effect today. For several decades, because politicians, lawmakers, and part of the lay American public viewed pinball as a gambling game, their claims were not entirely wrong or unfounded, as pinball manufacturers like Gottlieb and Bally were producing pinball games that dispensed cash payouts. On the left is Rocket, and on the right is Cloverleaf. These are the first payout games from Gottlieb and Bally. And Gottlieb would kind of come to say that he, D. Gottlieb would come to say that he doesn't support gambling. And later, I will discuss that a little bit more later on. It's also important to note that when I talk about pinball being banned, And I mean to say that it was often illegal to operate these machines publicly. People did own pinball machines that were designed for the home, such as Baffle Ball Jr. So that's another part of history that I won't get too much into other than that reference. Many American states and cities viewed pinball not as a game that produced amusement, but rather a dangerous gambling device that separated the hardworking Americans from their money. And this was especially the case during the Great Depression from 1929 to 1939. A main difference between slot games and pinball machines is that pinball was more in line with amusement devices, as players would plunge the ball into a play field. And there is some skill involved, as people would need to use finesse if they wanted to hit a target with the ball. With slot machines, the player pulls a lever, thus the game completely lacks skill. And it is designed as such, according to the slot machine designers who I've interviewed. It needs to lack skill. While pinball was generally banned in the U.S. from the 1940s to the mid-1970s, the game was still present in arcade shops, etc. And here's a quote from David Marston, who I've interviewed. I've interviewed a lot of people who are very knowledgeable about this, including Nicholas Faldridge. right but for Marston states that some laws were worded so broadly that any game with a ball rolling down an inclined play field was illegal game manufacturers got very creative when trying to fit within such restrictions in this way pinball faced the same scrutiny as slot machines did which Bashell writes about in his book his 1988 book on slots so the pinball industry reflected the slot business as designers were also adjusting their game so that they could be sold to operators who would then earn money from the general public playing their games. The classification of pinball games as gambling devices would become even more complicated when flippers were added in 1947 with Humpty Dumpty. I argue in the beginning of my book, my first chapter, that Spot Boiler was one of the first pure skill-based pinball games, and it was released in 1950. And even before the release of that game, many of the pinball historians consider baffle ball to be the first pinball game. And for my book, this is just one section of the pinball. People who have produced books on pinball, their comments, their claims, statements about when pinball became pinball with a capital P. For Czapinski, who wrote Special When Lit in 1979, it's baffle ball. Sharp seems to attest to this during our interview. Other people have other answers, but a lot of people view pinball becoming pinball during an era when pinball was still considered somewhat gambling, which is important to note. So to remain legal, games incorporated workarounds such as free games, which many also viewed as gambling, because there was some value that was being exchanged for successful gameplay. Here's a photo of Bella's patent that I pulled out from Google Patents. So contemporary machines, however, are not considered gambling games, with some exceptions. I'll note at the end of the presentation, despite offering free games for successful playthroughs. If you go to a local barcade, what have you, you can still earn a free game. Of course, these sentiments about pinball are not without justification. Bally did produce payout machines, which I already discussed. Bally became involved in the gambling industry in the 1930s, as well as a slot machine in the 1960s, which Roger Sharpe, in his 1977 book, states gave pinball a black eye. For these reasons, it is an open question as to whether pinball games were gambling machines. I see it more as a gray area. Initially, pinball manufacturers like Gottlieb and Bally did not have ties to the mob. It did come to light in the 1980s that people were involved in organized crime, like Gerardo, Jerry Catena, and Joseph Stasher. Katana was supposedly the head of the Genovese crime family while Vito Genovese was in jail, that they were silent partners with William Bill T. O'Donnell when he became president of Bally in 1963. It is unclear whether Bally as a company was tied to illegal commerce or whether O'Donnell was just friends with the wrong people. O'Donnell did step down. My sources who wanted to remain redacted told me that they believe that Bally knew more than what they wanted to admit. But there's some speculation there, and I need to maybe dive deeper. While this presentation mainly refutes LaGuardia's and other claims that pinball manufacturers were connected to crime, the purpose of this presentation is to explore when, how, and why pinball became illegal. And even though it was considered gambling, I primarily contend that pinball is predominantly amusement game. and that free games are not gambling. And this is especially the case because pinball manufacturers, operators, pinball historians, and many, not all, who I've interviewed, opine that free games are not gambling but prizes for productive play. Quick background on gambling in the U.S. So, of course, the lottery. Lottery tickets were the first gambling in the United States. gambling devices and slot machines are largely credited as being the most notorious. They were produced in 1895. Fay's Liberty Bell is on the left and Mills is on the right. There's a whole history about Mills' stealing, Fay's invention. I won't get too much into that. But lawmakers in the U have attempted to restrict gambling games to protect the well of American citizens right and once these machines were populating in the U and following with these laws slot machines the primary focus of the first laws surrounding gambling were to regulate them in numerous U.S. counties and states, even after manufacturers started producing workarounds for the slot machines. Because of the machine's payouts and lack of skill, U.S. law turned its attention to pin games in the early 1930s as those were replacing slot machines as gambling devices. So here are two quotes. One of the first mentions that I can find in the newspaper archives of pinball being considered a gambling game was published in the Knoxville News Sentinel. The newspaper briefly stated that the Supreme Court bans merchandise awards, merchants operating slot machines which give checks or money or who pay off merchandise for scores on pinball machines will be prosecuted. A year later, the Waukegan Suns reports are less clear. They state pinball machines and other petty devices that entail luck or skill must be licensed so that the city can dip into the revenue received. Before any licensing is started, it might be well to find out whether the machines are legal. So even from a reporting standpoint and legal standpoint, it was very much a gray area even from the beginning. Canada began to consider outlawing pinball machines in the 1930s. Ballbridge, Nick Ballbridge et al., their article in Pinball News was very informative and well-researched. Note that one of the earliest urban pinball bands was likely the one implemented in Washington, D.C. in 1936. In 1939, California banned pinball under the Los Angeles City Proposition No. 3. Pinball games, marble games, scoop laws, and similar devices will be declared nuisances in public places and may therefore be subject to seizure by the police. That's from the LA Times, December 11, 1939. Vermont State Supreme Court outlawed pinball in 1941. New York City would follow suit as the game would be outlawed from 1942 to 1976. LaGuardia was persecuting the game in New York as soon as he came into office in 1936 Pinball was explicitly banned in New York City in 1948 with some exceptions for places such as amusement arcades but again, another gray area New Jersey Supreme Court prohibited the game in 1942 via the Tianik Ordinance which banned operation of pinball machines as a misdemeanor and a penalty of a fine of $1,000 or three years' imprisonment or both upon conviction. Thus, certain community decisions impacted state decisions and vice versa. Regarding civil cases, Oatman v. Port Huron, Chief of Police, is an important example, as is State X-Rel Green v. One, Fifth Inning, which is a ballet game. 1939, a baseball game, regarding criminal charges for operating pinball games. Pinball, People v. One Pinball Machine, which is a criminal case, is about Henry Fox, the defendant. His pinball machine was seized and destroyed. But most importantly, federally, pinball would become largely considered a gambling game because of the Transportation of Gambling Device Act, which became known as the Johnson Act of 1951. And the Johnson Act was born out of the Kavoffer, I can't pronounce his name, Committee, Kavoffer, okay, as it came to commonly be known as a special panel dedicated to fighting organized crime via policing interstate commerce. So in effect, the criminal organization's cash flow would be harmed, right, which was largely funded by illegal gambling, although it was an open question as to how much the mob was involved in using pin games as a source of income. The money that the gambling pinball machines were generating was not nominal during this time. From 1958 to 1964, it was calculated that 100,000 gambling pin games operating at any one time in the U.S. generated a profit of volume of, say, $20 million per week or $1 billion per year. Comparatively, the Hollywood industry's box office receipts during this time amounted to $1.2 billion in 1958. By 1962, it was at $1.4 billion, so very comparable Hollywood and pinball machines. And these stats are primarily for the gambling pinball games. For amusement, the gambling pinball games were almost as lucrative as Hollywood, but the question remained for Kevoper's committee is where does the money go? And the simple answer is that the operators of the machines and the owners of the arcades collected the funds generated from the games. It is another question as to whether these same people were mob-connected, which, again, is speculative. Rufus King argues that operators and manufacturers spend money on lobbying. Thus, the money goes to politicians to enable gambling. Following the 1953 Illinois General Assembly and the pushback from the pinball industry to defend amusement games, the Corpin decision was enacted in 1957. The Corpin decision was based on the arrest of Walter Corpin in 1955 because Corpin willfully failed to pay the $250 per device tax imposed by 26 U.S.C., which is a case number on any person who maintains for use any gaming device. In 1962, the Gambling Devices Act amended the Johnson Act, and in doing so, it made the classification of illegal machines even broader. To combat the classification of pinball as a gambling device, many of the manufacturers such as Gottlieb hired Rufus King, who I mentioned earlier, one of the US's leading experts on gambling laws and enforcements in the mid-20th century to defend them. King wrote several articles defending pinball and a book on illegal gambling. Because of the openings of such acts like the Johnson Act, many of the pinball manufacturers and inventors created workarounds so that pinballs could exist, which I discussed earlier. William Bella's free game, Game Apparatus, which I already discussed, is quite possibly the most controversial edition of pinball. Bella's patent was created to stop the dispute that pinball was a gambling game as the invention was able to convert cash payouts into free games. The free games are a feature in pinball machines to this day, as are additional balls. Only very talented players can earn them, though. The knockoff circuitry, so this section is on the other workarounds, such as the knockoff switch, payout games, replay games, one-ball games, and briefly discussed bingo games. In the early era of mass-produced pinball games, the 1930s, it was common for manufacturers to construct a novelty pinball game that could be either converted into a payout game or a replay game. Games would be designed with a knock-off switch or knock-off button, which was a circuit that would be built into the pinball machine, usually internally, according to King. Commonly, one-balls, which were games that players had one ball to hit their desired target, would be produced with this configuration. Many of the one-ball games were themed around horse racing, which mirrored a popular American sports betting activity. By the 1930s and early 1940s, every manufacturer was using knockoff switches and at least some of their equipment, according to Baldrige. And ads for such machines blatantly promoted the ability for players to receive up to 400 replays off of a single ball. And that's also a quote from Baldrige. Baldrige. These replays could be used sometimes for cash payouts or players might sell them to other players to play their games in the arcade. With the add-a-ball, and this is a picture that I took of Rob Burke's collection, since Bellows' free game patent was controversial and it was not an entirely successful workaround to combat the restrictions on pinball, Wayne Neyens, while working at Gottlieb, invented the add-a-ball or AAB feature. AAB would allow successful players to achieve extra balls for excellent gameplay. They could earn an extra ball on any of their pinballs as well. A standard pinball game provides a player with three balls, so if a player is on ball one, they can earn an extra ball. I'm sure most of the people here know that. Gottlieb was totally against gambling, and for this reason, the company under Nairns produced a resolution to pinball being considered an outright gambling game. AAB games placed an emphasis on gameplay and less on cash payouts as well, because only SCO players could continue to earn an extra ball, which would allow them to extend their games, and these extra balls could not be sold to other players or redeemed for a cash prize. In AAB games, players can earn a wow, which represented an extra ball. the first AAB feature was introduced with Flipper Cowboy, which was made by Gottlieb in 1962. Because some considered the add-a-ball workarounds no different than Bella's patent, the manufacturers built their AAB games with black back glasses that did not show game credits, free games, or extra balls. For replay games, pinball manufacturers also began creating replay window masks, which there's a picture here provided by Marston. These masks were for standard replay model amusement games, which are the games that have a window in the back glass art through which one can see the credit replay counter. These replays could be used for purposes such as selling games to other players, which I referenced earlier. so now that we have all those workarounds explained we can move to LaGuardia and kind of his thinking behind all this LaGuardia was best known for being the mayor of New York New York City he was tough on crime and committed to social justice he envisioned himself as a protector of New York he was devoted to fixing corruption in New York City before LaGuardia took office, New York was governed by Tammany Hall, the Democratic Party machine, which a lot of people felt was very corrupt. It's depicted somewhat in the Martin Scorsese film Gangs of New York, if anyone's interested. LaGuardia was known as the People's Mayor because he represented himself as someone who understood their interests. LaGuardia was all over the place with what he wanted to ban in New York City, including strip teases and noise pollution. Only a few sections out of the entire Fiorello LaGuardia archive contain information on LaGuardia's campaign against pinball. The New York Times, however, extensively covered LaGuardia's campaign against pinball, which is documented in the New York Times time machine, which is their print archives. So LaGuardia's crusade against pinball. In the archives, the earliest document that notes the police's concern for pinball occurs on July 8, 1936. The second deputy police commissioner of New York City wrote a letter to the police commissioner with the subject, United States Conference of Mayors Report on Municipal Regulation of Mechanical Devices, where he goes in and explains that we need to be tougher with these machines. Numerous personal letters concerning pinball machines reached LaGuardia's office in the early 1940s, which made him even more uneasy about the game. Again, they were kept in the archives. They were documented, right? And one of the documented missives is from a schoolchild. He calls himself a schoolchild in the letter. Another is from a foreigner which is also what the letter says the police report LaGuardia an Italian immigrant sought to protect these two populations The letter that I'm referencing here is the earliest in the archives that I found. It expresses distaste for pinball machines. It was written in 1941 by a teenager named Donald Costa. Costa sent a letter and a clipping from a 1939 newspaper comic to inform LaGuardia about the dangers of pinball machines. So this was the teenager's evidence. Costa's letter included this cartoon titled Pinball Machines, and it was drawn by Clyde Lewis. It was published in the Saratogan. I was able to dig that up. His cartoon, Pinball Machines, shows a game designer presenting his invention to his supervisor. The designer's pinball machine contains a claw that extends out of the coin chute. The caption below the cartoon reads, My masterpiece, boss, the machine not only takes the customer's dough, but his gadget jumps out and steals his watch. So this confirmed, with quotation marks, LaGuardia's reservations about children playing the games, at least some evidence, which again might not have been unfounded since some of the children were gambling their money. LaGuardia was not just influenced by the ideology that pinball manufacturers were bulking children, but he was also motivated by the idea that pinball machines could lead adults to become violent, and he feared that fully grown people would turn to pinball machines to solve their financial problems. LaGuardia received a letter from a wife of a man who claims that her husband was drinking and gambling on the machines, and he would come home and beat her. The woman was an immigrant, according to the police report, and obviously LaGuardia looked unfavorably upon this and felt that this was also contributing to domestic abuse. Here is some photos that people might be familiar with. As LaGuardia viewed himself as a protector of the noble poor, e.g. the vulnerable immigrants, which LaGuardia viewed himself as one, He demolished quite literally pinball machines, as many photos show LaGuardia doing this with a sledgehammer, and this was circulated via multiple presses and newspapers. Pinball's threat to New York City is, I think, one of the captions. And LaGuardia ran on the platform that he was going to diminish crime. His evidence that pinball machines were evil, however, was gleaned from citizens' stories about being affected by these machines in a lot of cases. At least the archives seem to show. Before LaGuardia began categorizing pinball as slot machines, he successfully confiscated many of the one-armed bandits that were placed in New York City by Frank Costello, an Italian-American crime boss. Frank Costello was known in New York City as the slot machine king until the police drove the coin gambling racket from the city in 1934. Costello was the primary link between the mafia and Tamimie Hall. By men like Costello using slot machines for gambling, they were able to amass funds off the backs of hardworking New Yorkers. In turn, this allowed them to dominate the city as they could pay off police officers, politicians to ignore their crimes. This is partly why LaGuardia and his administration were so concerned with pinball machines, but it's also low hanging fruit for them that to get reelected, LaGuardia can show that he's tough on crime and go after gambling devices. That this is a new adventure for him to take on. According to LaGuardia, the pinball machine racket is a It's a direct outgrowth of the slot machine, and as the case with its evil parent is dominated by interest, heavily tainted with criminality. This is a quote from him. There is no difference between the two rackets other than the more subtle and furtive methods of robbing the public employed by the pinball operators. That was from the New York Times. The irony of this statement is that the crime that was committed by using pinball machines occurred at the local level. Based on my interviews with redacted names, manufacturers were not involved in the trickery that LaGuardia was referring to. His war effort, LaGuardia's claims that the pinball manufacturers were producing gambling devices, was also motivated by jingoism, as he believed that pinball company factories could be aiding the U.S. in their fight against totalitarianism in Europe and in the Pacific during World War II rather than exploiting the American dream, right, earning massive amounts of money in a short span of time, which gambling devices offered via the chance of winning a jackpot. LaGuardia stated that his administration felt that it is infinitely preferable that the metal in these evil contraptions, i.e. pinball machines, be manufactured into arms and bullets that can be used to destroy our foreign enemies. This proposal was also a reaction to the U.S. government's Salvage for Victory campaign. The Salvage for Victory campaign was designed by the U.S. federal government to retrieve materials for the American war effort during World War II. It asked that all Americans do their part in supporting the new war effort by collecting, saving, conserving, and recycling materials that could be repurposed for military uses. And that's a quote from the National World War II Museum. LaGuardia was confused on confiscating, focused on confiscating pinball machines. The New York City police seized 2,964 machines and had served 1,524 summons. Magistrate Ambrose J. Hodduck, a former police captain, had ruled that possession of them was illegal. the steel in them will be removed and melted into bullets, is what he stated to the New York Times. The New York Times showcased a picture of LaGuardia among hundreds of confiscated pinballs. The New York Times notes that these balls will be made into ammunition. The article also mentions that the material is enough scrap to make four 2,000-pound aerial bombs. LaGuardia's salvaging of pinball machines campaign is ironic because the confiscated pinball machines in early 1942 amounted to an estimated value of $1,100, although the machines from which it was stripped collected about $4 million annually as gambling devices. Although it seemed as if LaGuardia was committed to destroying these machines because they were broking American citizens, he did not want to waste the money from these machines to aid organized crime. He was seizing the money from these machines for his own purposes. More on that later. Although newspapers circulated pictures of LaGuardia smashing machines with a sledgehammer, the destruction of the machines was advocated as a practical action. Ironically, LaGuardia wanted to turn the devices he sought to destroy into weapons that he was confiscating, such as firearms and knives, which he was also dumping in the lake, Hudson River. The difference between the mob's weaponry and LaGuardia's new vision for the confiscated pinball machines, or his weapons, is that pinball games would become armaments that would enact acceptable violence, that is, justified violence, force against a foreign threat. Yet LaGuardia was quite clear that pinball machines would be converted into arms that would not only be used to combat overseas enemies, but also to domestically police the American public. For instance, more than 2,000 of the clubs made from the pinball machine legs were distributed to members of the city patrol corps to show the newspapers and public the meaning of LaGuardia's repurposing of pinball legs. He struck two of the clubs together and said, you see how nice these ring? I'd like to hear them ring on the heads of these tin horns, i.e. the distributors and manufacturers of pinball machines whom LaGuardia regularly called tin horns in the newspapers. So I can't imagine him saying that about current manufacturers. But by LaGuardia claiming that pinball machines can aid the police force, he constructs a divide between law enforcement and the pinball industry. For LaGuardia, the only way to bridge that separation was for the police force to suppress the pinball industry. In this abolition of American pinball corporations, the manufacturers would directly support the police force. In other words, LaGuardia was politically motivated to use the pinball industry for his own benefit. In this way, he not only eliminated pinball machines, but the material and earnings from the machines would benefit LaGuardia's law enforcement agency. Pinball at this point in history became far removed from its original purpose, an entertaining game. Pinball post-LaGuardia, as after LaGuardia left office in 1946, he died one year later in 1947 from pancreatic cancer, pinball machines were significantly less persecuted, despite LaGuardia's successor Mayor William O'Dwyer's continuation of LaGuardia's efforts to police pinball and the official pinball ban going into effect in 1948. Pinball historians date 1976 as the year that pinball became officially legal. They cite Roger Sharp as the person who overturned LaGuardia's vicious anti-pinball campaign by proving pinball to be a game of skill. But 1976 was also an important year or era for the film industry as Hollywood was drastically changing, and this allowed for more freedom of entertainment, which I argue also influenced coin-op entertainment. I need to be brief here, so I must skip over some points I make in my book, But Hollywood had been changing since 1948 with the paramount decision by the late 1960s to the mid-1970s or early 1980s, depending on who you ask. The new Hollywood was upon us. Hence my inclusion of Easy Rider, a screenshot of Easy Rider, a classic new Hollywood film. The U.S. was becoming more tolerant of violence and sex, and it was not shying away from the discussions of drug use either. The public's patience for vices affected the video game industry in 1976 as well. Death Race, developed by Exidy, became the first game in the U.S. to cause controversy surrounding violent gameplay. Namely, the game was excessively violent. It was an arcade game where you would run over people, but it was actually gremlins and caused mass hysteria. For the tolerance of more extreme entertainment, it was not a coincidence that 1976 became the year that New York City Council heard Sharpe's testimony. I do not say this to downplay his involvement in legalizing the game. He was the man who saved pinball, and he did so skillfully, showcasing that a player can control the ball and the game. He also had no self-interest, as he was not affiliated with any of the pinball companies. The Chicago City Council followed the New York City, their decision to legalize pinball the following year, 1977, and recently Austin Bragg and Meredith Bragg wrote and directed a narrative film about Roger Sharp titled The Man Who Saved Pinball. This biographical movie dramatically reenacts Sharp's life as well as his journey to prove that pinball is a game that should not have been outlawed. Currently, it is illegal for minors to play pinball in South Carolina. While this law is not enforced, state representative Todd Rutherford sponsored the bill that would end the prohibition known as H3227, which was referred to the South Carolina House Judiciary Committee and first read on January 10th 2023 The Bragg brothers stated at the New York premiere of their film that they hope that the screening and the production of Pinball, the man who saved the game, will also help convince local representatives of the validity of pinball. And I hope my presentation shed more light on the game as an illegal machine. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. First data ball game was Flipper, which was before Flipper Cowboy, but you're very close. I'm done. And there's also the larger cultural thing, since you're in the cinematic studies there. Don't forget Tommy the Movie in 1975. There's so much going around. my take on it is that Pinball was being built up in the media it's a good thing starting from 1969 with the original Tommy as an album and that being Pinball Wizard the big hit single from that album and that just snowballed into getting a movie and that was around the time that I I think the operators in New York who could operate other kinds of games but not pinball were saying, they were looking at the parts of the country where it was legal and saying, here's where we're missing out in New York for no good reason. Because now with a big hit song that says pinball is a game of skill, that was really a much larger message in the media than there had been before 1969. countering all these messages that you've been showing us from the 40s onward. Yeah. The thing with Tommy, though, it's British film. I'm looking at American culture. I know that it was... Yeah, it did well here. It did well here. Alan Meads talks about in his new book, Arcade Britannia, that because of the Johnson Act was enacted in the United States, a lot of the pinball manufacturers were actually shipping their gambling-type games to Europe, and then that's why Britain enacted the 1960 Gambling Act, so that British manufacturers or it wasn't just the U.S. that was capitalizing on that. So I do try to stick in the realm of the United States, but that was a very good point. Yeah. So we get it. Other, anyone want to comment, question, whatever? Any questions, any at all? Yes, that would be great. The gentleman right up there did. We'll ask the question. So we know a lot of the pinball history, we used to have a belly paragon. It still has the vestiges of, if you look at the one that's here, the silver ball rumble, you can turn off the credit display. It has the apron light, which is the substitute to tell you that there's at least one credit. You mentioned the word knockoff switch. And I haven't heard that extensively. Can you tell me more about what that is, what kind of game, what was it? Sure, sure. And also you should definitely email Nicholas Balbridge about it because he still works on the circuitry. But basically these games would accrue replays, and the person who was playing the pinball machine could exchange those replays to the arcade owner for a cash payout or give it to another player if they were done playing. So the knockoff switch would zero it out to zero, right? So it would get rid of all the replays, so that way there was no evidence that that kind of exchange was happening. Yeah, I can add to that that particularly on a bingo machine, you can picture you just won 400 games. How long would it take you to actually play that? so you really want to cash it in so you go without the operator present with location only so that bartender could go from the outside of the machine and and run it down. You might have heard the term knockoff button I'm not sure if they I think they're interchangeable knockoff switch knockoff button yeah it was a button type switch there you go Politically, it looks like LaGuardia had a lot to gain. He did. And especially with the show. Yes. Is there any evidence one way or the other that he believed his BS? That's a very good question. I think with politicians even today, it's hard to know what they believe. I think that he was aware that it wasn't a slot machine because, and David and I have talked about this, that there is some finesse involved in it, right? Even Pachinko, I know that Pachinko is a Japanese game. I know that it's considered gambling, but there is definitely some skill involved. Whereas two of the designers at Aristocrat Gaming who designed the Dune machine and have licensing all these slot games, the skill, it has to be removed legally. So, yeah, I would assume that he knew enough to make that. Yeah, I mean, he really cracked down on York for various reasons, noise complaints, strip teases. He just wanted it the way he wanted it. And he was like a strong man. You know, he had this radio show called Talk to the People. He would speak directly to the Americans and tell them, you know, what he wanted to do, what he felt was the right thing. So I think he really envisioned himself as a leader that was, like, going to double down on what he said. Any other questions? Oh. Right there. Hold on. So I work broadly in the gambling industry myself, and specifically on the lottery side of things. And there is today a substantial amount in some states of sort of this distinction between a game of skill and a game of chance that there will be gas stations, convenience stores, things like that, that will have a skill slot machine that stands right next to, like, the vending machine that sells lottery tickets that operates exactly the way you're talking about, where it's a skill game, you can't get cash money for it, but it can be exchanged for, like, goods and things like that in the convenience store. And so there will be, like, a bar of soap that will be won and then exchanged for $50. You'll return it right back to. And I'm wondering, do the same laws that went into effect for pinball, back in the 40s, are they still on the books in a way that can be used to this day, or were they struck down? So for the Johnson Act, that's still enacted as far as I know. And then there are various city laws. I hope this is answering your question. And I can't say who this has happened to, but I do know personally people in New York City who have been limited by how many pinball machines they can have. There can't be any free games, so I'll have to do more research on these. And maybe you can email me and tell me where to look, but it sounds like these pinball machines in certain cities might be more regulated than the machines that you're referencing. But, yeah, I mean, New York City still is pinballs regulated. It'll be a question whether it'll ever be unregulated. And one of the manufacturers who I've spoken with who wants his name redacted argues that pinball, even with the free games, Stern, Jersey Jack, what have you, still is somewhat gambling because you can earn something that you didn't necessarily pay for. Every other manufacturer, designer who I've spoken with disagrees with this person. But it's an important, you know, he says that gambling's involved in pinball's history. and it's still to this day with the free game. Interesting take. Is there any relation between when people just go up to a machine and play for a dollar against each other in addition to the points they're putting in, or has that become a separate legal matter? That I don't know. That is a good question. I think it's separate. Yeah. I'd say that it's separate. I would guess so. I'll have to look into that too, though. That's a good point. Last call. Last call. So after all of your research regarding, you know, pinball's not really gambling, it's more of a game of skill, what would you say towards three machines in particular that actually have gambling as part of the game in order to increase the score? For instance, Riverboat Gambler. Uh-huh. Yeah, it's a gray area. I'm not, you got me there, I have to go back to it. but there's also games like the Sopranos, right, that has literally a gambling-type game, George Gomez 2005 game, where you can use cards, right? It has this gambling sequence on the dot matrix, and I don't know, but I'll have to look more into that. Yeah, that's great, because even when you see the roulette wheel, that's not a free-running roulette wheel like back on Williams Fantastic or a Go-Go. The riverboat gambler one is a stepper motor, so they know in advance where it's going to stop. Or jokers, back glass has the cards that complete your hand. That's a stepper motor. They determine programmatically, we are going to show him one more ace or whatever. So then you have to dig into the code, which is like the modern slot machines where they have to show their code to the Nevada Gaming Commission so that the Nevada Commission can see that there's no player input once they hit that button. So that's the kind of thing is looking deep into the code like that for modern games. Hyrule Casino, same thing, right. Okay. Way back there. We're running. I was just wondering if there's a meaningful difference between awarding a ball and awarding a game. Like, were those seen as different, having different value, or as being legal versus not illegal? Yeah, I've talked to several manufacturers about that. And even like Pat Lawler, you know, was talking about what Chicago, what that area was, how they were regulating and designing those machines, that they had to design machines with an approximate amount of free games that, you know, the operators can give. Now, I do know that in New York City, it's like no free balls. They're not supposed to. Who knows how enforced that is? And no free games. but I'm I mean I guess if you pay one dollar for three balls and you earn an extra ball you're getting more than what you paid for on so again gray area thank you very much for having me