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The Pinball Show Ep 45: AP's Facelift, TWIPY Snubs, & Steel Pennies

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 26m·analyzed·Jan 4, 2021
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TL;DR

Dennis Nordman joins American Pinball as senior designer; CGC/Spooky game delayed to late 2021+.

Summary

The Pinball Show discusses Dennis Nordman's hire as senior game designer at American Pinball (described as a major signal of the company's commitment), Ben Heck's update on CGC/Spooky co-op game timing (late 2021 or into 2022), Jersey Jack's Guns N' Roses collector's edition shipping timeline, and Led Zeppelin's release at Stern. The hosts analyze Nordman's design portfolio and speculate about American Pinball's strategic direction toward a Spooky-like model.

Key Claims

  • Dennis Nordman announced as senior game designer at American Pinball

    high confidence · Official press release read on air by correspondent Brian Kosner

  • Joe Balser will continue as contracted game designer at American Pinball

    high confidence · Confirmed by Zach speaking with American Pinball representatives

  • CGC/Spooky co-op game estimated for late 2021 or early 2022

    medium confidence · Ben Heck stated this timeframe on Canadian Pinball Podcast; hosts express skepticism it will hit 2021

  • Jersey Jack Guns N' Roses collector's editions will ship in two to six weeks

    medium confidence · Distributor post on Pinside referenced by correspondent Ken Rudberg

  • Zombie Yeti is hard at work on a new Stern project for 2021

    medium confidence · Craig Bobby correspondent segment citing Zombie Yeti's Facebook post

  • Ben Heck is designing code for his CGC/Spooky game

    high confidence · Ben Heck stated on Canadian Pinball Podcast that he is doing the rules for the new game

  • Ben Heck discussed licensing difficulties with large film organizations like Warner Brothers

    medium confidence · Hosts interpreted Ben Heck's comments about Charlie and Warner Brothers as potential tell about future Spooky licensed title

  • American Pinball has inventory unlike many other manufacturers

    medium confidence · Zach stated 'I do know that American Pinball has inventory'

Notable Quotes

  • “Dennis will be assuming that role and be able to mentor over the younger design staff, and we're excited to have Dennis join our team and bring his design expertise.”

    American Pinball official statement (read by correspondent Brian Kosner) @ ~8:00 — Official announcement of Nordman hire; emphasizes mentorship of younger staff

  • “A lot of people view Dennis as the canary in the coal mine.”

    Zach @ ~12:30 — Explains industry perception of Nordman's moves as indicator of manufacturer health (Highway Pinball collapse precedent)

  • “I always feel like he's like the pinball design mercenary. He's like, yeah, you need to get the job done. The price is right. I'm coming.”

    Dennis @ ~16:00 — Characterizes Nordman's career pattern as contract-based rather than long-term commitment

  • “will also finish releasing in-progress games in the future that he's been working on under contract with other manufacturers”

    American Pinball press release statement @ ~13:30 — Ambiguously worded clause that could suggest API acquiring other contracts or simply clarifying existing ones continue

  • “He said he thinks we're going to see it late 2021 or just very easily into 2022.”

    Zach (reporting Ben Heck's statement from Canadian Pinball Podcast) @ ~31:00 — Ben Heck's timeline for CGC/Spooky co-op game; hosts express doubt about 2021 feasibility

  • “I'm pretty sure that's what people like the most on that game [America's Most Haunted].”

    Ben Heck (as reported by Zach) @ ~38:00 — Heck attributing America's Most Haunted's appeal primarily to code/rules rather than layout or toys

  • “I think they're going to be a game a year at best. At best.”

    Dennis @ ~20:00 — Skepticism about American Pinball's production capacity despite Nordman hire

  • “Elvira, House of Horrors is great. Love it. It's his best game.”

Entities

Dennis NordmanpersonAmerican PinballcompanyJoe BalserpersonBen HeckpersonChicago Gaming Company (CGC)companySpooky PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Uncertainty about American Pinball's ability to execute production and sales targets despite Nordman hire; hosts question whether they can sustain game-per-year cadence

    high · Dennis: 'I think they're going to be a game a year at best.' Zach skeptical about inventory vs. production efficiency.

  • ?

    event_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball celebrating 10-year anniversary milestone; franchise positioning itself as established major manufacturer

    high · Correspondent Ken Rudberg: 'Jersey Jack Pinball just reached a major milestone. They have been producing pinball machines for ten years.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Ben Heck emphasizing code/rules quality for CGC/Spooky game, citing America's Most Haunted code reception as model for new design

    medium · Zach reports Heck: 'I'm pretty sure that's what people like the most on that game' [America's Most Haunted]

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Ben Heck indicated CGC/Spooky game is film-based; discussed Warner Brothers licensing difficulties; possible future Spooky/Warner licensed title hinted

    medium · Zach interpretation of Ben Heck's comments about 'Charlie being up to his ears with Warner Brothers'; characterizes licensing as 'trials and tribulations'

  • $

    market_signal: American Pinball's 2020 marketing and strategic decisions assessed as significant improvement over prior years; company eligible for 'most improved' consideration

    medium · Zach: 'almost every decision American Pinball made in 2020 is better than any other year I can think of for them'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.261

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:26
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. XC. That's better than SC. What was the other version? Is it the S?
1:06
Yes. What was the non-disc version? Yeah, it's the S. Sassy. So XC came. Does she have any damage? No. She arrived great. Thank you again to you and Nicole for... No problem. We're glad you got it. I'm glad it came in a little bit earlier. Yes. Now you've got to buy games and all that. Well, no games are out really. So you've got time. Well, but it's fully backwards compatible, so that's good. Yeah, you can play your Xbox One games. I did. I've been, and it's already detecting the games, and it's like, hey, look, here's a new graphic enhancement pack for Maneater, the Killer Shark game. Would you like to download 10 gigs of Maneater? I'm like, why not? Go ahead. Feed me my Killer Shark. That sounds like a – It's the closest I'll get to Jaws pinball. See, now, in previous shows, I would go straight into that song, but we're not doing that.
1:57
See, that feels good, doesn't it? You're full of kindness. Man, I have that song on the tip of my tongue as well. So what did you do for New Year's Eve? Anything special? No. Well, I popped in briefly to the Fliptronic stream. Oh, yeah. We were doing a live Zoom thing with Scott Denisey. So I joined. Manu joined. We had. Oh, gosh. We had a, I think in the end we had like six or seven people. So I did that for maybe an hour. I was hearing good things. Yeah, it was fun. It's always fun to kind of just sort of chill and talk about pinball stuff. As friends, that's nice. I played pinball with a couple friends. My wife and I's friends came over. They brought their kids over. We had a lot of fun. But I'll have to do fucking flipper rebuilds after that night of three hours. Was there a lot of double flippy flip? Yeah. Bless them. I love them. but my kids are used to, and I don't scold children. I want them to break stuff because it means they're having fun. It's fine. But my kids are accustomed to pinball now, so even my four-year-old, he doesn't double flip. I'm the champ. He uses one flipper at a time. The kid's got it. He enjoys it. But, yeah, these kids, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, and I had to leave at one point because my anxiety got a little high, but um yeah i had a new year's eve beverage chilled out and it was a lot of fun we call that kinetic satisfaction i suppose it's like it's like beating on pots and pans i call it migraine inducing and it's important for childhood development oh and they're like what's wrong with this one i'm like oh well i can tell you what's wrong with and then you launched into a history of the big lebowski's development they're spending well kids sit down and let Let Uncle Zach tell you about Dutch Pinball's adventures. But one of my buddies is a huge 3D printer guy.

Zach (regarding Nordman's portfolio) @ ~25:30 — Assesses Nordman's recent work as strongest, countering some perception of his legacy

Zombie Yeti
person
Highway Pinballcompany
Deep Root Pinballcompany
Led Zeppelingame
Guns N' Rosesgame
Hot Wheelsgame
America's Most Hauntedgame
Elvira House of Horrorsgame
Whitewatergame
Demolition Mangame
Scared Stiffgame
Craig Bobbyperson
Brian Kosnerperson
Ken Rudbergperson
Canadian Pinball Podcastmedia
Pinsideorganization
The Pinball Showmedia
  • ?

    community_signal: Nordman characterized as 'drifter' or 'mercenary' designer with pattern of short-term, contract-based roles rather than long-term manufacturer commitment

    medium · Dennis: 'I picture Dennis Nordman...the Snake Plissken of pinball design.' Zach: mercenary who moves between manufacturers.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Dennis Nordman hired as senior game designer at American Pinball, described by hosts as 'canary in the coal mine' signal indicating manufacturer's commitment and stability

    high · Official press release confirmation; hosts discuss precedent of Nordman departures predicting manufacturer collapse (Highway Pinball)

  • ?

    announcement: Led Zeppelin shipped from Stern as recent release; multiple future releases anticipated from Stern pipeline (Brian Eddie expected next, Zombie Yeti project in progress)

    high · Craig Bobby segment discussing Stern's design pipeline and equipment innovations

  • ?

    product_strategy: CGC/Spooky co-op game timeline slipping; Ben Heck initially estimated late 2021, hosts express doubt feasibility will be met

    medium · Zach: 'I don't see how they make his timeline...could see late 2022 actually.' Ben Heck previously reported to miss 2020 deadline.

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Speculation that American Pinball's next release will be Balser-designed rather than Nordman, despite Nordman's senior role

    medium · Zach and Dennis discuss probability of Balser game coming first; assumption based on Balser's likely proximity to completion

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball considering Spooky-style business model: limited production runs, hard caps on units, potential a la carte customization options

    medium · Zach speculation: 'I'm wondering if the reboot is...we're going to adopt more of a Spooky model.' Hosts discuss scarcity-driven sales approach.

  • ?

    technology_signal: Stern introducing new 'expression lighting system' on Led Zeppelin Premium/LE versions; JJP's Hot Rails system cited as competitive precedent

    medium · Craig Bobby correspondent segment: 'upgraded lighting systems for both companies are here to stay'

    • 3:57
    He's literally a 3D printer. He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil. I will print you, Erkrelink. No, I will print you, Asol. He was telling me all about it, man. He's a nerd into that, like I'm a nerd into pinball, so that was a lot of fun. Don't fall in that rabbit hole. It is a deep hole, that 3D printer hole. Well, what he claimed, he was like, mine's running right now at home while I'm gone. Oh, boy. But he was going to each game, Dennis, this was cool, and saying what would be cool as a 3D thing he could print for me. And I was like, oh. My modded heart just loved hearing that. Did he go to your Bally El Toro and offer to print you a whole new play field design?
    4:36
    I want you to get a Bally El Toro. I want it to be the centerpiece of your collection. You get the deepest pinball cuts there. It's so good. The listeners know what I'm talking about, and they appreciate this. It's fine. They think it's funny. Good. I wonder if it'll be inducted into the Pinball Machine Hall of Fame this year, El Toro. What about resolutions? What's your New Year's resolution, Dennis, for 2021? Go. I know this is going to shock you, Zach, but I don't do resolutions. Oh, blah, blah, blah.
    5:04
    That doesn't surprise me at all. Okay. No resolutions. No. I have absolutely no history of that. I thought it the weirdest thing when I learned people did resolution. What is this resolution of advancing and having goals? What is this resolution, and why did you tie it to the start of the new year? Why didn't you just do it?
    5:24
    It's like Yoda with the try thing, right? Yeah, kind of, but we're not really here to explore human focus. So anyway, tell me about your resolutions, Zach. I'd love to hear them. Well, you know what? I'm going to stand firm with my buddy here, Dennis, and if you don't have a resolution, damn it, I've thrown out my seven. They're gone. I will not be a better person. Do you not feel like a burden has been lifted? I kind of do, actually. I'm like, all my bad habits, I don't have to worry about changing. This is great. And I think the listeners really appreciate hearing me keeping all of my bad habits. So thanks, Dennis. It's not so much about keeping the bad habits, but rather that, you know, you can change them anytime you want. You don't have to tie it to the new year. No, I'm doing something special for my birthday to myself. So it's not like I'm doing myself. You get it. Yeah, I don't know where you're going with this, but I don't like it. Let's go back to the resolutions. Once a year would be a little rough. So now, well, resolutions, I think, I'm with you. If I want something or I want to do something, I don't wait for an excuse to do it. I'll just do it or I don't. You know what? Fuck New Year's resolutions. Yeah, they're kind of dumb. The Pinball Show does not condone New Year's resolutions. If you want something, go get it. If you want to change, change. That's it. I'm trying not to be snarky this episode here. No, we're chipper and full of joy. Well, I am full of joy because we had a listener that was kind enough to reach out to us, Dennis, acknowledging all of the work that everybody here at TPN has been putting in, and they've been consuming and really enjoying this past year. All of the content provided, so much so that they requested and sent us an act of support and a contribution to TPN. And that's Brian Fuller. So I wanted to take the time to publicly thank Brian Fuller. And I know Brian, he's an awesome pinball person. So thank you so much, Brian, for the support of TPN. Yes, thank you. That was extremely generous and kind. And it does help out a lot. That will help us with a lot of things. So appreciate it. All right, Dennis, you ready to kick it over? We actually have some exclusive news as well. But we've got some news this week. You ready to hear from our lovely correspondents? I am. But so what happened with Chris? Oh, God, you as your week off. I thought you would not notice. What the heck? This is Craig Bobby's doing. He drove him away. Drove him away. I had one correspondent. All right. Dr. John is my new favorite. Oh, he's done some great work. For no other reason than his his clever initialism for his segment, his correspondent segment. And I just hope Craig doesn't break him. You're pushing your chips to Dr. John. I have to pick someone And it's like Chris Chandler He was the chosen one He was good He was sent to destroy the Craig Not join them But he had deep root He's happy to come back He said he would love to co-host sometime Or if we're in a pinch he would love to step up What does that mean to me? What about me and my needs? I don't know what that means I'm sad to see him go as well Maybe it wasn't a coincidence that he hit us up whenever you weren't going to be on.
    8:35
    My gasp of surprise is extra gaspy. The great gaspy. Come on, that's good. The great gaspy. It was like, okay.
    8:48
    All right, correspondence. It's time for TPN Industry News. news. Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. There's been quite a few rumors going around Pinside and Facebook the last couple weeks about a possible new designer at American Pinball. Well, I can confirm those rumors are true. I have a message directly from American Pinball. Here it is.
    9:15
    It is with great honor to announce Dennis Nordman as a new senior game designer at American Pinball. Dennis will be assuming that role and be able to mentor over the younger design staff, and we're excited to have Dennis join our team and bring his design expertise. He has designed many titles for Bally, Williams, Stern, Multimorphic, and Highway Pinball. Dennis will also finish releasing in-progress games in the future that he's been working on under contract with other manufacturers. Dennis is an asset during our reboot of American Pinball, and we look forward to his creative style in both licensed and non-licensed games. so that's very interesting news to hear that Dennis Norman is now on at American Pinball he's had some great work in the past such as the Elvira titles, Whitewater Demolition Man and many others so I'm very excited about the future of American Pinball hope everybody has a great week have a happy new year for the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosner Good riddance to 2020 Zeppelin hits the line and what comes next? Happy New Year, everyone. Craig here again, the pinball show's Stern News Correspondent. With 2020 now in the rearview mirror and Led Zeppelin making its way onto the Stern production line, the big question, of course, is what comes next for the world's largest pinball manufacturer? Logically, with Richie, Elwin, and Borg having helmed Stern's most recent releases, one would have to think that fan favorite Brian Eddier up next for a new release in early 2021. Could this be the year that Stern launches online connectivity and more co-op gameplay features? With competitors like JJP announcing their plans to go online this year, one would think that Stern also has online plans and more co-op gameplay options of their own in the works. What will Elwynn's fourth title be? We know Keith is one of the most creative, productive, and exciting designers in the industry these days, so no doubt Stern will continue to leverage his always popular releases in 2021. Will we see more of Stern's new patented expression lighting system that we just saw unveiled with the premium and LE version of Led Zeppelin? We know that JJP's own patented Hot Rails lighting system was a big fan favorite in 2020, so one would think that upgraded lighting systems for both companies are here to stay. We also know that based on his Facebook post that Zombie Yeti is hard at work with a new project for 2021, and it will be interesting to see who Stern pairs him with next in the coming months. Could we see the return of face-to-face pinball expositions or competitions in 2021? One would like to be optimistic that we might see some of that toward the end of this year, but realistically I think we're going to see a continued cautious approach to these with continued cancellations or delays to most face-to-face gatherings. And lastly, could this be the year that poor old Munsters gets a much-needed code update as buyers of that game continue to cry out for more from that 2019 release? So many questions in anticipation of what's to come in 2021, and as always, we shall wait and see. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    12:40
    Hi, this is Ken Rodberg with your Jersey Jack update. As Guns N' Roses continue to be shipped out of the Jersey Jack factory, one big question remains. When will collector's editions of Guns N' Roses be on the line? As limited editions continue to be boxed up and shipped out, buyers of the most exclusive and expensive version of the machine have been left out in the cold. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel for these buyers, courtesy of a social media post by Ken Cromwell. It stated, quote, Another container headed out the door this morning. The line is rocking here at Jersey Jack Pinball. What could be shipping next? Unquote. Many have taken this to mean that the long-awaited collector's editions will finally be shipping soon. There was also a confirmation of sorts by a distributor posting on Pinside. He said that the first batch of collector's editions will be ready in two to six weeks. In the immortal words of Craig Bobby, I guess we'll just have to wait and find out if this is actually true or not. And believe it or not, Jersey Jack Pinball just reached a major milestone. They have been producing pinball machines for ten years. Jersey Jack has put out some amazing machines in the last decade. and I look forward to seeing what they'll be able to produce in the next. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg.
    14:04
    Well, Zach, it was great to hear from what few correspondents we have left. Yeah, I think the rest of them said to hell with 2021 already. Well, I mean, what news is there most likely for many at the start of a new year? Typically, you would think nothing. Well, yeah, we heard from Brian Kosner, didn't we? Oh, yeah, wow. Big news there. Yeah, we've got fresh off the press. You're going to hear it from a couple media outlets today, including the Pinball Network. And that is Dennis Nordman announced as a new senior game designer for American Pinball. That's huge news. It is. A lot of people view Dennis as the canary in the coal mine. So I think a lot of people will think this actually shows that American Pinball is, if anything, doubling down on committing to pinball. which, you know, I had heard some rumors that maybe, depending on how Hot Wheels did, that it might go the other way. In the statement that they released, that press release to us at the Pinball Network, they talked about it being kind of a reboot. They called it a new reboot of American Pinball. I don't know what that means. I don't either. And, you know, tied to that, what does that mean for Joe Balser? Ah, I can confirm that speaking with representatives at API or American Pinball, they said that joe balser will continue to be a contracted game designer for them oh okay so he maybe he's wanted to step back more and do things on contract or maybe he hasn't i don't know but regardless so you know it's interesting i mean dennis nordman he's uh he's he could be a really good mentor to the to the staff at american pinball it's a good point that's a good point they did talk about a young design staff nordman can help with i found that interesting as well because I thought, who the hell else is there? I think this is a great move for American pinball. People love Dennis Nordman designs. And if anyone wasn't sure if he still had it, I think Elvira House of Horrors really convinced them that he still does. Well, and that's an Elvira that parts of his fingerprint, if you will, design-wise in pinball, parts of that were even taken out. Yep. There was some acid applied to them fingerprints. Got to obscure them. Yep. Sorry, left ramp. That loops around to the right. Yeah. We're sorry. In addition to that, Dennis, I found it very interesting. I'm going to use a quote here partially. They said he, quote, will also finish releasing in-progress games in the future that he's been working on under contract with other manufacturers, end quote.
    16:31
    What the hell does that mean? That's worded in a really strange way. I would assume that they were just trying to confirm that anything he was working on under contract with other manufacturers will still be produced by those other manufacturers. But the way this quote reads makes it almost sound like they'll be producing those games. That's what it felt like to me. I'm like, so he's bringing over these? That doesn't make any sense. He will also finish releasing in-progress games in the future that he's been working on under contract with other manufacturers. See, if he was under contract with another manufacturer, that means the other manufacturer paid him for that work, and that would belong to that manufacturer. It doesn't make any logical sense otherwise unless they not only hired Dennis Nordman, but also essentially bought all of his other contracts out, which I just can't. I just didn't know if he was developing a design, a Whitewood stage, and he said, no, from a different manufacturer, I'm taking that with me and I'm going to use that over API. I did go to Deep Root's website. We know that Dennis Nordman was previously there working with Deep Root as a designer, and it still shows Yukon Yeti, which is trademarked, being a designed pinball machine by both Nordman and Mueller. Yeah, I just think that this was an attempt to clarify that if you were excited and looking forward to seeing Nordman games soon from Deep Root in particular, that those are still going to go ahead. Again, in my mind, just like Elvira House of Horrors, we knew Dennis was with Deep Root, but that did not mean that Stern wasn't still going to do the contract game that he had already done for them. Yeah, and I don't know if he's credited for it, but he helped a lot initially in the Alien project with Highwall. That's right. And that's kind of where my canary in the coal mine thing comes from is he a lot of people were kind of their hackles were raised when Dennis left working with Highway Pinball. And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why is Dennis walking away from this? And then, of course, with the implosion of Highway Pinball, everyone's like, oh, he was a canary in the coal mine. Sure. Dennis flies away. You know, things are in trouble. And it happened to Deep Root as well. And so the discussion started up regarding Deep Root because the precedents from Highway is already set. How long does he stay at American Pinball? Do you think he sticks for a couple titles? I don't assume a super long time. I don't. I mean, it just seems like Dennis is like a drifter. Yeah. I actually, I don't mean this in a negative way, but the term I use privately is mercenary. I always feel like he's like the pinball design mercenary. He's like, yeah, you need to get the job done. The price is right. I'm coming. He's chewing on the cigar while he's saying all this. I'm going to get in his eye patch. I'm going to come in and I'll get it done for you. You got to pay me in gold bullion, though. A surly type. Yeah. Kind of like, I imagine him as the Snake Plissken of pinball design. That is a reference to Escape from New York? That's correct. Bing! Yes!
    19:18
    Guys, that's not easy to do. That is not easy to do. So I picture Dennis Nordman very similar, and he should never be compared to, but Roger Sharp. how they kind of just bounce between these manufacturers, offer their expertise, which in some cases only they can, and then they go to the next project. Yeah, I think the interesting thing here is that Dennis did not take a contract design position, but he's come in as the senior game designer. Exactly.
    19:47
    We'll see what that means for the future of API and some of the stuff that they bring. They talked about him doing both licensed games and unlicensed games. Hmm. I don't like this. The unlicensed route I don't think is working for American Pinball. And I don't think putting Nordman on it is going to change that. Do you think that the next game that American Pinball releases will be a Nordman or a Balser? Balser. I believe so, too. Do you think they're going to try pushing out more games now in a quicker fashion?
    20:18
    They might try, but I don't think they will succeed. I don't know how. I think they're going to be a game a year at best. At best. Okay. I can see them doing two a year, actually, because their track record is not selling a ton of pins, I don't believe. So I could see – why don't they just – But what's their track record on getting the manufacturing up and ready and really pushing those? I honestly think pretty good. It was like, hey, we sold 500 games and we can build 25 a week. But I've never gotten the vibe that they're bad at manufacturing, but I also don't get the vibe that they're good at it. Does that make sense? Yes, but I'm starting to believe that they can hang with Chicago Gaming Company. Hmm. I don't know. I'm too ignorant of it to know. Right now, I do know that American Pinball has inventory.
    21:10
    And a lot of manufacturers can't say that. But does that mean that they can produce them in a very efficient fashion? Or does that mean they're just not selling as many games? Right. Do they overproduce and are just stuck sitting on inventory? I think they would be smart if they're really wanting to do this unlicensed stuff that is not going to have a huge draw to limit them. If you're only going to sell 300 to 500 Houdini, I don't even know how many they sell. But if you only going to sell that many why not Dennis just have hey we going to make 300 of Valkyrie and then we moving on to the next title I agree It works for Spooky Just do the small run, and now that you have two designers, start giving people options a la the Deep Root a la carte, the way they're looking like they're wanting to do. I don't know. Well, hey, maybe that's what they meant by a new reboot. Oh, that's possible, actually. Yeah. I'm wondering if the reboot is, okay, we're going to adopt more of a Spooky model. I think it's a good model to look at actually as you bring it up and as I think about it I think it's a good model to copy actually especially on the unlicensed stuff if they're going to just be trying to use that false scarcity thing and say okay well we're just going to put in hard caps and try and use that to help drive sales or what I would call a soft license like Hot Wheels they knew when they signed up for Hot Wheels probably not the strongest license and I think that works even with soft licenses i think with hot wheels you know the thing and while i i do disagree with the theme choice uh for them as a company i i i understood where you know that was i think really designed to be an an operator driven thing and then the pandemic didn't really let them test that the way they wanted to because like lower price point a theme that kids know yeah it's not the strongest theme but they're tying into the youtube cartoon thing and maybe that'll get a lot of operators like hey this is easy to maintain it's affordable let's drop it on location and you know see if that was an area of the market they could explore and then operators were not being able to actually rough the game because of pandemic conditions so i just i don't i don't know they got to fully test what they wanted there i'm not sure that's really where the growth can be especially post-pandemic i don't know how long it will take for operators to fully recover so And they got a big push from the streamers. You know, I pinball pushing that series. They had a decent push. I think what they did, like as a company, around Hot Wheels was a lot more effective than what they did with Oktoberfest and Houdini. 100% agree. Yes. So I think they've been making improvements. And remember they had that Hot Wheels with Snoop Dogg and Jay Lentz? Yeah, yeah, no. They did good marketing on that. Their marketing strategies, I think, have – overall, almost every decision American Pinball made in 2020 is better than any other year I can think of for them. So I think they have – we're going to talk about awarding most improved company. I think they need to be in the running. Oh, yeah. That's very true. But it's still not – I don't think it's where they want to be. I can think of one decision I didn't agree with. Really? If we're looking at Dennis Nordman's pinography is what I'm going to term it. just quickly going through, I want you to tell me whether you like the game or dislike the game. Special Force. I like it. This is Dennis Nordman. So you like Special Force. Party Animal. I don't like it. Blackwater 100. I've only looked at it, never played it. Interesting concept. Elvira and the Party Monsters. I like it. Overrated. Dr. Dude. I like it. I do like that. Party Zone. Hate it. Hate it? Yeah. Okay. It feels similar to Dr. Dude, but Whitewater. I like it. That's his, maybe his golden child there. That's his most popular game, I would say. I love that game. Demolition Man. Love it. Greatest super pin ever. Overrated. Indianapolis 500. It's okay. Underrated. Scared Stiff.
    25:07
    I like it okay. Yeah, I really like that game. Pirates of the Caribbean by Stern. It's a good game. I like it. It's a good game. It's fun. Wheel of Fortune. Never played it. Interesting game. I've only played it once or twice at a show. Whoa, Nelly, those big old juicy melons. Never played it? And same for Pabst and Primus. I have no opinion on them. I've never played them. They're boring. Lexi Lightspeed, Escape from Earth. It's okay. I don't know how he, I guess, designed the back third. Everything else is standard from the front two-thirds. Yeah, but it's still incorporated in the design. Sure, sure. It's a solid game. Elvira, House of Horses is great. Love it. It's his best game. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I can't argue. I can't argue I still think it's white water I think a lot of people would agree with you but that's the nice thing about opinions we all get to have our own I think sometimes he gets maybe a lot of credit and there's some okay games in here there's some great games in here and then there's some duds in here so his penography feels similar to a Joe Balser type to me, I don't know I don't agree I kind of get where you're coming from but I think Nordman does have a more flow-based style, whereas Balser just really seems to be able to shift up his entire design philosophy at will.
    26:28
    One collection of games, Joe Balser's pornography or Nordman's pornography? Nordman. Nordman's lows are not as low as Balser's lows.
    26:39
    I think give me Balser's. I think he has a couple big shiners in there. As Pinside would say, Zach, you are wrong. If you give me the Hobbit and the Simpsons pinball party just to kick, just to start it off. Oh, my God.
    26:55
    Clunkfest Simpsons. I cannot stand it. Oh, I can stand it. I can play it. I just don't love it. Oh, I don't love it either. Speaking of clunk, Ben Heck visited the Canada's Pinball Podcast. That segues in reference to America's Most Haunted. Sorry, Ben. I actually like that. Game that I love. I do love that game. Well, your segue was mean.
    27:19
    Accurate is what I'd like to think. Yes, you would like to think that. But he visited the Canadian Spinball Podcast, and Ben Heck, as he oftentimes does, he is very entertaining, highly entertaining. He plays as non-confrontational and controversial, but he knows that he is, and he knows what he's doing because he's a very smart man. He dropped some nuggets that are worth talking about. He talked about the estimation of when his next game is going to be out, that co-op between CGC and Spooky Pinball. He said he thinks we're going to see it late 2021 or just very easily into 2022.
    28:00
    Okay. Isn't that interesting? I mean, I don't know. Chicago Gaming was the one surprise because I thought they were supposed to have another remake out in 2020, and they did not make that. That's what they reported to everybody. so and then and i haven't heard revised timetable and then he went on to even say that cgc looks as if because he felt more like a cgc kind of thing here he talked about the remake and then an original game and then his game i okay and i'm like 2021 i don't see how they make his timeline i just don't see it i could see late 2022 actually sure i could i could possibly see it but cgc seems to be unable to put out a game a year, like within 12 months. I don't know how much time there was between AFM remake and Medieval Madness, but it was over a year for Monster Bash after AFM. Oh, yeah, and we're sitting at well over a year now. Yep, for what most people think will be Cactus Canyon, and assuming they do that or whatever remake they're doing, and then their original theme one. I mean, there has to be a little bit of time to incubate and sell the games, and I get where people will go, well, Stern does it in three months, but Stern is Stern, and CGC is not Stern. games. CGC is, I mean, their track record is suggesting that they are significantly slower at building games. He even discussed, Dennis, that it took a while to get the license to the game that he is building currently. He made it sound like it was, the game is based on a film as well. That was an interpretation from me and nothing more than an interpretation, but that's what it sounded like. He indicated that most work was being done right now at CGC with this title. And when talking about intellectual property and assets and getting film rights and licensed versus non-licensed, he said something interesting about Charlie and being up to his ears with Warner Brothers right now and how difficult it is. And I don't know if that was a tell that he didn't think about saying, if we're getting a Warner Brothers licensed pinball machine specific title from Warner Brothers for Spooky in the Future. I don't know. But he talked about the trials and tribulations of dealing with especially large film organizations. He also discussed that he is designing his code in his new game. Okay.
    30:20
    I think he worked on the – he did the rules for America's Most Haunted, right? Yes, and it was kind of a little – a jab. I don't think he meant it to be, but he was like, But I'm doing the rules for this new game because I did the rules for America's Most Haunted, and I'm pretty sure that's what people like the most on that game. And I was like, ooh. Oh, I see. I like the layout and the toys in that game. I actually really love the code in America's Most Haunted. I just despise the animations and callouts are mixed at best. Yeah, I think it was meant to be hammy. He's looking through the code. And he was talking a little bit about his design philosophy. and he really emphasized the importance of toys and mechs on the play field. Now, this could either be listener one of a couple things, but maybe he just knows what you want to hear and he wants to get you excited.
    31:10
    Or maybe his philosophy truly is, I don't give a shit about what the art looks like. I don't care about it. I just care about what you interact with in the game. He went on to give a description about if he were to do a Rampage game, what he would do with it. and I've got to say, I could give two shits about Rampage, and he made me want the game. So he's probably good at conceptually what he does.
    31:35
    And one of the bigger shockers, he discussed changes to the LCD display. Remember, this is kind of a CGC-type game. He said it's going to be similar to the current remake, those extended XL displays, Dennis, the special editions the LEs have. But he says it's going to be taller. Okay. So now we're getting into using up artwork space for that back glass.
    32:01
    Right. So does that mean, because he was kind of alluding to, well. But how much taller, we don't know. There might still be a significant placement for a Translight. It feels, yeah. Are we doing a Sega tallness in the big displays on those big Segas? Are we doing, yeah, so I don't know what that is. But it's interesting to know. I don't know if their rumored Cactus Canyon would have that. It sounded like the original theme after the rumored Cactus would have that. So does that mean going forward we're going to have to wait and see, but a bigger display. So go check out that podcast if you have interest in Ben Heck's workings and Ben Heck's outlooks on the games of 2020. In other pinball happenings, Twippy Voting has opened. Opened on January 1st. Get your votes in. Ready to roll. Go to the thisweekendpinball.com website to access your ballot. Yeah, and I think the Twippies has a website now, twippies.com. That's right. They do have a website. I went through the regular Twip website. Twippies.com. Okay. Now, they have a new voting format that I thought only applied to the media stuff. I was incorrect. It applies also to the main game categories. So it's ranked choice voting. Partial ranked choice voting. Partial ranked choice. Yeah, because you can't rank them all. You can only rank up to three. Ah, okay. Partial rank. You see what I'm saying? So, yeah, I went to the website and looked. I haven't voted yet, but I went to look at the options and different things. Congratulations to all of those manufacturers with games that are getting voted on this year, as well as the media component of making that drop-down top ten list, and condolences to those who were trying to get on that and didn't make it. So we had some, in my opinion, some, I'm going to call them Twippy Snubs, because you call them Oscar Snubs and everything else. Twippy Snubs this year, really profoundly, in my opinion, podcast category, Dennis. We had, not making the top ten list, which was baffling to me, three to note. Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, Slam Tilt Pinball Podcast, and Silver Ball Chronicles. Were you surprised at any of these, not making that list? Yes, in particular Loser Kid and Silver Ball because I know they both – I believe they both spoken – encouraged people to submit on them. I don't know if Slam Tilt did. I don't recall them asking for people to write them in or anything. Not much. They didn't. A well-known show. I can't remember if Slam Tilt made it last year or not either. See, I think they did. I think Slam Tilt ended up at like – I don't know. I think it was April. I mean, I listened to all three of these, so, I mean, they would have been – had I the ability to pick ten to be in the list, those three would have been in my list. But, yeah, I mean, I was surprised at Loser Kid because of all the interviews that they've done, and typically interview shows fare very well on making the twippies. I agree. And then Silverball Chronicles because it's both – it's so unique as a history podcast and I can say because I have access to the numbers, like it's one of our strongest performing shows on the Pinball Network. It gets a hell of a lot of listens. And that's one of our – It's in our top three shows. It's one of our top three shows. I was talking to Greg Bone about some of the options, and I said, for us, TPN-wise, and I think you would agree with this, we get more specific interest and feedback, positive feedback, about Silver Ball Chronicles than probably any show on the network. People really like that show. Well, and also it appeals to, I believe, a lot of people that might not like a lot of other pinball podcasts. Absolutely. As a case in point, I think around midway through the year when we finally went and figured out a way to establish the individual RSS feeds for each of the shows, Silver Ball Chronicles has more individual subscribers than any of our shows. Oh, okay. Good to know. Most of our listens actually come from people who listen to the entire network, but not everyone wants to do that. and so when it comes to checking out the individual RSS feed subscriptions, yeah, Silverball Chronicles I think has more than double the next nearest one. Yeah, these three really, really surprised me. They really did because I think I listen to 90% of pinball podcasts out there. It's just something I do, and I had a hard time listing 10 podcasts without listing one of these three, but they're in my top. Yeah, I'd have to go back over the list for me to actually say, well, which three would I sacrifice? Because that's the thing. There can only be ten, so which ones would I sacrifice? I mean I could make those decisions, but I'd need to look over the list again to go, which ones do I think maybe shouldn't have made it?
    36:49
    Because that's really what the question would become. But that's part of the fun of talking about snubs is sort of going, well, what do I think should have been different? I like the term that you used. Oh, yeah. So I said they got slap saved.
    37:02
    Trademark. My term du jour from 2019 because it seemed like the entire podcast listening community was shell-shocked when Slap Save Pinball Podcast didn't make the list. And I was one of them. I was like, really? Slap Save. It's so good. Granted, I didn't vote for them because I voted for myself. You're part of the problem. But I was like – but this year, the ability to write in three, and I mean I'm willing to admit one of the three I wrote in was Silver Ball Chronicles. Yeah, I could see the argument for sure. So it's going to happen every year, any awards thing. You can't fit them all in. I get that. No, no. It's unavoidable. You'd have to have a full – you'd be like – you'd skip the write-in phase and have a full drop-down list. And as long as – because they kind of did a drop-down thing for the write-ins. And if anyone went and did that and saw how long that list was, that would be almost unmanageable. I think you almost have to. If I were on the Twippy committee, I would say you have to cull the herd in some way. I mean, it's just. And we've been verbal about that. I've disagreed with the process there. If it's called a write-in, do a write-in because that's why it's a write-in. And there were some categories that I did question a bit. I wanted some clarification. I reached out to the This Week in Pinball Yearly Awards Committee just for some clarifications on a couple things. In particular, YouTube got a bit messy last year. There were lack of details to truly define the categories and eligibility. They have since fixed that this year, so they had more clear eligibility requirements, which was very much appreciated. in using that criterion, I went and looked at, personally, I went and looked at Flippin' Out Pinball because Flippin' Out Pinball, my company, made it in for the YouTube category, which was surprising and I was very humbled by it and I was like, oh, that's really cool. But then I was like, I just don't remember how much I was able to do on Flippin' Out this year, straight down the middle, of course, like hundreds upon hundreds of hours because that's where our heart was at. So I went back and looked and I was like, shit, you know what? I think my interpretation, I only have four videos. I'm not eligible. So I attempted to message him just to let him know, I don't think flipping out is eligible, so could you remove us kind of thing. And I had a couple concerns about other categories there. And they were kind enough to come back with some links to provide why they ended up agreeing to it. I still disagree. I think I only had four videos. But for splitting hairs on video five, don't vote for flipping out, guys. Use your vote for another person in YouTube that really was highlighted this year. But, yeah, they stuck with it. So there were some interesting choices of what they declared a video on YouTube. Mine was just an uploaded stream highlight. And I was like, well, that's not. They were like, well, it was heavily edited. Was it criterion? Oh, I see. So the editing they found made it original content. And you disagree. There was no – like it was minimal editing. And another within that category, somebody else had something like that. It was like a seconds video with no editing. I'm like, it's ineligible, but I get it. Whatever. I'm not fighting for it. I just don't want to be taking votes away from people that are more rightful to get them. That's all. Well, as we know, going through and trying to enforce criteria isn't always the easiest job. And that's what I told them. I was like, look, I get it more than most. I know how tough this is. Yep, it's definitely not an easy process. We know that for sure. Now, going back to the voting criterion, they did change it a little bit. They said, this is from thisweekinpinball.com, quote, New for this year, voters can choose their top three for each category if they wish. They can count as three, quote, points for first pick, two points for second pick, one point for third pick for January voting. We'll determine the winners of the categories. We also have an eligibility document, which I alluded to earlier. Do you like a ranked – partial ranked choice voting for the Twippies?
    41:08
    Yeah, I guess so. I mean you're trading out some pros and cons for other pros and cons with the shift. But I mean overall, if you've got lists of stuff, I often favor ranked choice voting. Okay. But like I wouldn't have capped it at three. I'd let you rank all of them, for example. Oh, I like that idea. That's just a personal preference. I like that idea. Do you think the weights should be evenly distributed as they are? Because that's where I have trouble. No, I do agree with that decision. You like that? Okay. Yeah. So like if you were ranking across 10, I'd say 10 points for first and one point for tenth. And I'm comfortable with that because otherwise you're really having to come up with a formula about why you're allowing the weighting to go heavier. And there are some reasons – I mean I'm not saying there aren't good reasons to consider that. It's just inherently most rank systems I'm familiar with don't do it like that. They do it pretty equitably spread out for probably both simplicity and the idea that obviously you can always cut off your ranking at any point. So once you're at I don't like these last three, you just don't give them votes sort of thing. And that that can skew it, you know, in a way without having to worry about the waiting aspect of it. I'm not I'm not personally wild if you're if you're trying to the outcome. The goal is the best. The term is best. What is the best? I think if you're well, it's best on the games and then it's favorites on the like the exact location stuff. So I think if you're utilizing a partial rank choice voting system and you are trying to determine, quote unquote, the best, then I think that first pick being the best of that said rank choice of that voter, that should be weighted higher, in my opinion, if you are trying to determine the actual best. So that would be my only critique there. Well, I mean, obviously – and I think they've explained it in some of their written materials that the Twippies have up about the logic of why go to ranking. People often like multiple things, and they do have an order of where they think, okay, well, this is the best, but this is second best. And then having a way to convey that is something that the ranked voting will accommodate to allow people to say kind of in a range of bestness It not just an on switch so that the pro to it the con is what you know i mentioned about getting slap saved earlier uh the con is what i call the argo effect uh-huh familiar with the movie argo ben affleck directed yes that's right yes so argo is a for those that don't know is a ben affleck directed and starred in uh drama thriller movie from 2012 and the the thing with argo is uh they had done the preferential ranked voting for the academy awards i believe i think that might have been the first year i'm not sure though and argo won yeah argo wasn't anyone's favorite no it was a good film right but it wasn't the best and so and that that's the flaw in a ranked system is a pretty big situation that you had a situation where there were some other films that I can't remember if it was Les Mis was out that year. I think it was. And I guess it was more polarizing. A lot of people thought it was the best film and a lot of people hated it. So what ends up happening is you have a movie that like in terms of best picks, like averaged, I don't know, number three or something. But points wise, it was able to because it was so high up, but not at the top of so many lists that it ends up winning the safe pick. Right. So if you were to ask, if you were to poll the entire Academy and say, what is the best film?
    44:50
    Argo didn't have a plurality of number one votes. That's tough. But it won on the number of points because a lot of people are like, yeah, it's a second best movie. Yeah, it's the fourth best movie. They should call it the bestness. The bestness award for Design Goes To.
    45:08
    It's just these are there's a price to be paid with any voting style. I don't see what you gain from this. That's the only – Well, it's what the TWIP committee has said. You gain the ability to indicate on a stage of tears of bestness, and you can't convey that with just one vote.
    45:27
    My guess is this is more motivated by the favorites category than by the games category. And again, I would guess that that was your guess given you didn't think this was going to apply to the games. Yeah, and I thought you could still do that. You can still pull the whole ranked choice voting system to the favorite categories because of that very reason. They're very different than the best categories. But, I mean, for example, if we're talking – we're here on a podcast. If you're talking favorite podcast, I could see where the twip came in. It was like, wouldn't it be nice if someone could say, well, Backbox is my favorite, so I'm going to put that as number one. But Super Awesome is my, I think, second best show, so I'm going to put that at number two. And then I like, bro, do you even talk pinball as number three? And so now I can convey that, whereas before it was I only get to cast the vote for Backbox. And does that mean Super Awesome has less of a chance of being recognized because they didn't like I can't convey my second favoriteness to it? Yeah. And it loses ground to the pinball show instead. But doesn't it fall apart, though, because we've already seen some media breaking the whole format by saying, hey, just vote for me, number one, and then don't play sure vote for number two or three. Or hell, we had the host of the show this year that said just submit them for all three choices or whatnot.
    46:50
    I mean, that's always true for rank. See, if you don't want to rank others and you're like, I just want all my points to go to the one thing, you can do that. But a lot of people do want to be able to say, well, these are my flavors. Huh. I mean, if you think that your number two and number three choices, for example, aren't likely to win, there's really no downside to giving them additional votes because all you've done is allocate more points. Yeah. And I heard some reports. Some people said they were able, even in the main game categories, able to pick the best game of the year, the same thing for all three options. Some browsers would allow that. Some browsers would not. Yeah, I'm assuming those will be purged and they'll only get three points. Still, it's just odd. It's just more complexity. That's a systemic error with how the voting ballot was coded, is my guess. So we know the event is in March, but there has been no date or time set. So follow This Week in Pinball for all of the updates to the Twippy Awards this year.
    47:51
    Speaking of awards, the Pinball Industry Awards is coming up as well. Dennis and I are part of that project. There's been an update we had on the 30th, the Excellence Awards Media Judging Panel that took a – what were we on, Microsoft Zoom? We were on some kind of video. No, Teams. It was horrid. Let's do Zoom next time. Teams. That took place where we all, all of those as part of TPN that were interested in becoming Excellence Award Media Judging Panel, we all discussed. I think there were 12. Yes, 12 of us. So we had a panel that was open to nominations, and then once somebody nominated a provider from videography or from podcasting, writing, photography, et cetera, and we discussed as our attempt of objective judging the pros, cons of that particular media group. And who we could identify as just showcasing exceptional excellence this year in pinball media. Exceptional excellence. That doesn't even work, does it? That's redundant. It sounds horrid.
    48:57
    Exceptional excellence here at the Pinball Industry Awards. How did you feel like that went? That was an interesting dynamic, I thought. I'm still tired. Ugh, vicious. That was long. Yeah, I remember we discussed putting the recording online, and five minutes in, we're like, okay, this cannot go online because we are shredding people, including people on the network. Especially our own. Oh, I think we were extra harsh there, but that made sense. I mean, there was a lot about it. In fact, while we were going, a lot of panelist members were making suggestions about improvements for the next go because this was the first time. I mean, there was no dry run. You called it experimental, and I agree. Sure, sure. I mean, a lot of this is experiment, but I think this this element in particular was because the whole concept, you know, being able to give out more than one excellence award in a category of we choose, being able to not give any out at all the way we did it, which was through this sort of panel nomination debate system. I actually as tiring as it was, though, I thought it was fun. I respected it. I think we set out with a goal and I think we overall achieved that goal. I think everyone left disappointed because they didn't get their way. That's the sign of true success. But everybody made compelling, objective arguments, and if not, they got shut down really quickly. Sure.
    50:17
    I did love it too, but I was tired. It was like a four or five hour. It was supposed to be three, and again, we had to guess on our two hours. We spent over an hour just on streamers. God, streaming was so big this year. So much excellence. Yeah, we probably should have started with a – I was going to say weaker category, a category with less nominees. I agree. Less good nominees in it just to get our – but lesson learned. So we've done that, and there's still some aspects that we have to follow up on because not everything got set even with that. So we're following up with the panel on some other aspects. I can say as of looking this morning on the critics' choice aspect, which is the media judging panel. Main game stuff, yeah. Yeah, over half the ballots are in now. Oh, good. When is the deadline? I'm trying to think. Well, we're kind of running with it. I phrase it this way. We never announced the deadline for the media judging panel to get their votes in publicly. Okay. Privately, we're going to try and get them all in by the same deadline as the Machine Hall of Fame, which is the sixth. Oh, that makes sense. But we have flexibility if we need to for some people. They're struggling with or had a vacation or something. Obviously, we need to know in time to be able to put together the awards and everything. So I'm shooting for the sixth. I'm hoping we get them all in by then. Well, that's a good reminder to those that are part of that media judging panel for the main game categories. Make sure to submit, if you've already been vetted, make sure to submit that ballot and check your spam filter because maybe it fell into that. Yes, good point. David Dennis with Silver Ball Chronicles has been coordinating with a lot of this work on the governance committee. And he did inform me that at least one judge did state that the ballot ended up in their spam filter folder, which isn't too shocking because it actually flows from SurveyMonkey.
    52:05
    And so that could tag on certain spam filters in a flag. So, yes, do check that. Anyone who applied, it will go to whatever email address they provided in their application. Makes sense. I'd love that. One of the highlights so far throughout this process, because it's been a hell of a process, one of the highlights for me was hearing from some of those outside or even inside TPN media judging panel members saying, hey, we appreciate the reminder at the beginning of the ballot to be objective as you can, an objective judge slash critique rather than a personal favorite, because they said it's actually more difficult than they had even imagined. Yeah, and you had that portion added, so kudos to you, Zach, for recommending we re-remind them about the objectivity. I even put it in the email to them with the ballots, and they see it again when they go and vote. And I've heard similar. I've had multiple people inform me that they're trying to be really objective. It's harder than they thought. When I looked before we started recording, I think there were four voters that are actually in the partial stages of the ballot, which means they're still thinking about choices. I like that. People are taking it seriously, and that's kind of what our aim was, having fun, but trying to be as objective and transparent as we can. Now, we do know that the listeners here, you guys, if you haven't voted yet for the Pinball Machine Hall of Fame, what in the heck are you doing? Make sure to go to thepinballindustryawards.com. It's a lot of fun. I submitted my vote a couple days ago, and I loved going through each era, Dennis, like the 80s and the 90s, and trying to find that one pinball machine, to me personally, that deserved that induction into a special group of all pinball machines made. So make sure. I've done my ballot. I have no idea how that's going to turn out. That's going to be a, that one might be an oddball one. There's so many choices, like in the 80s and 90s, it's going to be brutal. I was looking at some of the preliminary results, and I was saying it last week. That one's going to get really interesting, that whole pinball machine hall of fame. and I think a lot of people are going to really enjoy that. So if you have not submitted your vote for that, I'm telling you, you'll have a lot of fun with that. And all of this is for fun. That's the purpose of it. And we knew we'd get a little bit of online pushback when we announced it. I'm really – I actually am glad that we did it though. I've had a lot of fun working on it. I didn't think I would have much time to work on it after the preliminary stuff you and I had done because I've just been so busy with work. but I even had a few days off in December and put time in working on this. And it's just, it was just nice to, for me, the selfishly, it was just nice not to only do COVID and feel like I was doing something in the hobby again, that was tangible. And so I thank you. I thank you and the other members of TPN for actually really pushing to go forward with this. Cause I was on the fence. I was like, I don't, I don't want pushback. I'm so tired of drama that I wasn't sure it was worth the effort. But it hasn't been too aggressive. And I think – and like with the media judging panel, which is the aspect I've mostly worked on, I'm really pleased with the pool of people we got for it. And we're going to be open for more improvements next year, but I think when people see the diverse group of judges we got, that they're going to think we did try. And that's coming soon. I've had fun with it, so thank you. We'll be announcing those members as well as all of the nominees for all of those categories. That's all coming soon, as well as just the host. Those are being finalized right now. We're in the process of that. We don't know yet. It's all a mystery. As we begin to start storyboarding, filming, and the editing process for this award. It's all for you guys. So tune in January 28th. A live broadcast of that pre-recorded program for you guys to enjoy at 8 p.m. Central Time. It probably will come at no surprise that Stern Pinball will win some Pinball Industry Awards. Right, Dennis? I would not be surprised at all. I wouldn't. I had a lot of cool games this year, including not Led Zeppelin.
    56:15
    See what I get for trying to segue? All right. Led Zeppelin's not in the running until next year. But recently. It probably won't be in the running then. Oh. Say your name so. I'm so sorry. Say your name so. The reaction has been so flat. Flaccid? A little flaccid reaction? Yeah. I'm just, I mean, people are really hoping that the rules will make it what they want it to be. I just. So you're saying to me that the straight down the middle pro promo and gameplay video didn't make your day card. Okay. I got you. I saw it. I actually. All right. So full disclosure, I've not watched that video.
    56:51
    I had smoke and lights and everything. Look, I saw a still photo of the smoke and I was like, okay, he got it out the fog machine. Probably should have spent that on a new DSLR. But who am I to judge? got dslr stealing i'm just being mean and and uh the but i saw the discussion on pin side so i know a lot of people use that to make some assessments about the machine it's just their comments were not negative to your video but they weren't very positive to the machine yeah i guess but anyway so what's going on with stern pimple we yeah we had fun with that uh just wanting to highlight that promo if anybody wants to go over and see because prior to that video from straight in the middle there was no promo gameplay. So if people want to see what the pro plays like rather than the reveal stream of that premium LE, go take a look at that. I should look. I've just been so lazy. Just watch the first at least two minutes. You get the promo with the smoke and the... I've been too busy watching stuff about EULAs. It was a good challenge for me to try to see what I can get. I don't know. I love the video creation aspect of pinball and the editing and the production, et cetera, et cetera. And I wanted to give myself a challenge of what can I do in 24 hours? That's all of filming and all of editing, 24 hours. So that was a fun solo challenge I had with Straight Down the Middle. So go check that out. Yeah, that's interesting. I should do a challenge. I wonder what I could do filming and editing in 45 minutes. The top ten most expensive pinball machines, maybe? Hey, that took more than 45 minutes of editing, I am embarrassed to say. Well, that's a lot of editing. It took quite a while. You could tell how much time I spread it out on because I kept changing accents as I went through the video. That's how bad it was. Well, mine was mostly the entire 24 hours. I didn't want to lose an hour there. But I've been playing Led Zeppelin, the pro model, for a week now. A week.
    58:51
    And do you want to hear my shill quick review? I'm sure everyone's waiting with bated breath as to whether this got a B-plus or an A-minus from you. I loved it on the gameplay video. People were like, you're such a shill bastard. And I'm like, guys, it's a gameplay video. What am I doing wrong? They're like, we don't even want to hear from you saying anything about this game unless it's negative. They watched anyway, though. They did watch. I'm just saying. Record numbers. Vote with your eyeballs. That was my point. So there are pros and cons to this game. They get the worst out of the way, and we talked about it, I think, the last week or the prior week. It's bare. The Pro is bare. There's not a lot going on. Yeah, I was just thinking about this when you were talking about Ben Heck mentioning the importance of toys and mechanisms. And I thought, well, he probably doesn't think much of Led Zeppelin Pro model. And a couple of people said online, and I agree with them, they said that's not the only factor that goes into a great game. And I agree with that. there are games out there that if they shoot really well i would i think that's one of the most important aspects in a pinball machine for me for ownership reasons it's not necessarily the toys number one it is this i kind of like to shoot this thing well i was just going to note that part of that comes down to the design philosophy one thing i think people maybe don't think about on the surface of it is for example flow-based gameplay and toys don't always go hand in hand as well as you might think on the surface. Sure. And the reason is, if the toy is interactive with the ball, anything that delays the ball is going to disrupt flow. So you have to consider what sort of toys are... This is where, like, the vengeance shot works on Star Trek because it's a kickback that fires the ball right back down. So it's keeping that pressure going. The magnets only use sparingly. The stand or the drop target that catches the ball is only used sparingly. So it's those sort of things where if you've got something that's going to lift up. And that's kind of the best of both worlds, too. And this doesn't have any of that big interactivity in the pro model. Right, that's the thing. You've got a static Zeppelin sculpt. That's the toy.
    61:02
    It's not very exciting. It is not very exciting. And this one does lack those new expression lighting system. But it does have the spot for them. And that's clean looking. I was somewhat surprised with this game because I was like the listener. I saw it and I was like, eh, okay. It's Ritchie, so it'll probably shoot well. I'm excited about that. And it is Led Zeppelin. I like that music.
    61:27
    Any guess as to the number one surprising thing for me with Led Zeppelin pinball? In a positive way. The most positively surprising thing for me. The display?
    61:40
    That's not bad. Done standout. Good guess. For me, Dennis and listener, it's the sound effects. I would have never guessed that the sound effects would stand out in a music-based pinball machine. It would be the music. Did they add the crickets from Frontier? No, you didn't get the crickets. But you had a lot of – and some people – I saw some people speak negatively about it and say, well, why do they have space sci-fi sounds? Because I'm like, it's fucking pinball. That's why. But the sound effects stand out just as much as the music. I loved the sound effects in this damn game. and I went in not thinking that, but first couple games I put on, I was like, damn. Like, they got the spinner sound right. They got the stand-up target sounds right. They really got the jackpot sounds okay. And we're at .91 code out of the box. Interesting. Code's pretty cool in this game. And it does shoot great.
    62:37
    It really shoots great. Did you enjoy that upper flipper shot on the pro? It's a feel-good shot. do I want a ramp there? Absolutely. I want something else there. Give me something else. I don't need the train shot in Adam's family. But the feedback that it gives you when you hit it, they've got it coded correctly. The train shot. I'm just thinking, don't let Richie hear you say that. I'm sure he does not want to be compared to a Lawler design. I know. The game is tight, and it shoots so phenomenally well, in my opinion. I don't know why I like it, but I do keep going back to it right now. Maybe it's just the early stages. Well, no, that could be the case with people game where as they get their hands on it and experience the flow and remember, oh, yeah, the flow is, I mean, as barren as flow can be, the smoothness of it all can be exciting. I think this game is going to be for someone that is a Led Zeppelin fan.
    63:34
    Really? You think? I was listing out the who should buy this game. That's an obvious one. Hey, you know, if you were a TMA Ninja Turtles fan, maybe TMNT is the game for you. Okay, so. I'm just saying. Thank you, Captain Obvious, for your contributions on the pinball show today. I'm sure the listeners are grateful that you pointed that out. Rough enough week. So, Leadheads, those who really value highly a good shooting game, those who value backhandable shots will love this game. Richie fans are going to love this game. I think this may be a good competitive-based rule set. It's too early to tell. I think I read on – I don't remember which Discord I was in, but I think someone said that it's already scheduled to be in an upcoming tournament.
    64:23
    I don't know if it's the pro model or not, but probably. So it has a lot going for it, and it surprised me. I like it more than I thought I would at first glance. Downsides to me, it is bare. You don't have a lot of stuff going on in it. You don't have the expression lighting in the Pro You don't have the whip around You don't have the magic magnet I think you're taking away that big toy That seems like a pretty cool opto spinner there with a magnet The other downside for me Is that I found that You get the dummy multi-bowl Enough that it makes it a long playing game And I don't necessarily know if I want that in a Steve Ritchie Star Trek kind of like that too Maybe they tweak it I mean while they still working on Timmy still working on code Sure So it felt like either it can be brutal or you got those kind of like those GNR filler multiballs and you're like, okay, I can keep this game going on forever.
    65:18
    But the ball doesn't have to stop. It just doesn't have to stop. Can't stop, won't stop. You can backhand that middle ramp repeatedly. And I will say another downside, they're advertising that third flipper hitting the middle ramp. guys no no no i've read a few other people pointing out that they're not seeing that happening i will say the other day i did hit that middle ramp from the right upper right flipper on numerous occasions but i wasn't proud of it no that is not nope not a feel good that's not a good one you just need If you hit it from the third flipper, they should add in a clip. They should pull it straight from Richie Star Wars and Yoda just goes, that is why you fail. That's right. Would that make you feel better? Yeah, it would because I'm like, okay, at least they acknowledge I wasn't trying to do that. No, you're not going to try that shot. It should not be a feature that's advertised. So we'll see where it goes. I'm excited to play the premium LE next. Ten songs now that I'm used to 22 and Guns N' Roses may be tough, but it is Led Zeppelin, which if I'm listening to music, Guns N' Roses or Led Zeppelin, give me Zeppelin over Guns N' Roses. But when you're limiting the amount of songs, I don't know. Do you have like another 12 songs that you wish from Zeppelin were in it? You know, I would say – Because I could add like two more and then after that I'm like I'm done with their discography. No, my point would be, listener, that Guns N' Roses, I couldn't name 22 songs of Guns N' Roses, But now that I have them, I've appreciated some of them I've never heard of so much more. And they do space out the ones that we're used to, like Welcome to the Jungle and everything, to where, yeah, they could fill me some less-known Zeppelin ones. And because it fills it out, I'll appreciate some of the songs more, and I will appreciate the ones I don't have to hear all the time. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's a fair point, actually. So, yeah, Guns N' Roses, I'm like, oh, I didn't know they did this song. It's a later one, but I'm starting to like this one. So it'll be interesting. We'll see. We'll see what happens. But I think this might be a little bit of a surprising hit, as was Stranger Things nowadays.
    67:35
    Well, I mean, a lot of people have come around on Stranger Things. I don't know if it's moved up to hit status. Let's not be ridiculous. No, no, no, no. I agree. It's a hit in my mind. It might be forever underrated. Yes.
    67:48
    I ain't getting shit for that video, too. So hopefully, Dennis, you'll be able to play it soon enough. Yeah. Will I be able to play some CEs from Jersey Jack soon? Switching over to Jersey Jack Pinball. C's have got to be on the line any day now, guys. It sounded like Ken thought it was imminent, but he couldn't promise when he was on the pinball show last week. I think that they're really wanting to announce it whenever they're in the box leaving the factory. And I don't blame them. I don't blame them either. I do know that, damn, there's always things I don't know if I'm supposed to share, if I can share. I don't think they'll mind me saying, because somebody has reported already on Pinside, a dealer, that they did request payment for partial allotments of CEs from us dealers.
    68:31
    So we're very close. If they're asking for money for the CEs full payment, then that means they're coming. Usually that means minimum of two weeks, maximum of four to six weeks, typically is what that means. And I was asked for that last week.
    68:51
    Exciting. exciting times where's my fucking ce it's one to five weeks away maybe well well well my michelle it may be a new year but we do not need new segments in pinball podcasting we need the old the gold the pinball market trends 2021 edition Yay Yeah, you hear how enthused my co-host is Dennis Crazy Turning out this week, Dennis is American Pinball The whole damn company Why? Because it looks like they're having a new 2.0 Such marketing, isn't it? Dennis Nordman 2.0 We got Nordy Nordman! Nordman's coming on and we have Joe Balser We're coming in to do Hot Wheels, House of Whores.
    69:47
    Hot Wheels of Whores. And we've got Hal out. Joe Balser's still hanging around in the wings. I think it's a good one-two combo. It's right over with Paul McCartney.
    70:00
    What a comparison. I want to do Beatles, but just Volkswagens. Until they properly train Dennis and I for our co-op-designed new unreleased game. You think we could co-design a game together? We could do Zoolander I would be up for it Yep, I bet we could Does it have to be a single level? Craig Bone will give it a B plus Does it have to be a single level? No, I wouldn't single level Zoolander Good, thank you What would it shoot like? Butta That's why they call you Zach the Butta Mini I saw that at the beginning I know, you said it was a remark that would come from David Dennis. It sounded like a David Dennis remark. I thought, what is going on with this guy? It does. Yeah, I almost sent you all kinds of what I have been called this week so that you can say, well, I take the butter comment all day. Why don't people like you? Do they not know that you're butter? I would love to know why people dislike me so. I think it's because you're so loud.
    71:00
    I would love to know why people dislike me so. I think it's a volume issue more than anything. Neil McRae, why do you hate me? What did I do to you? Why do you have people doubt? Why do you hate me? Turning up this week, Guns N' Roses Pinball by Jersey Jack Pinball. With voting open on all of these upcoming awards, we're hearing a lot of positivity about the likelihood of Guns N' Roses being one of those final contenders for Game of the Year. That coupled with continued ordering for Guns N' Roses Pinball, despite the wait list and sniffs of the CE getting ready to go on the line, if not already. So, Guns N' Roses continues to plow through 2020 and will be strong in 2021 as well. But on the other hand, trending down this week is Scared Stiff. If you thought the height and popularity of Guns N' Roses was strong, look across the street at Stern Pinball and the continuation of the highly desirable Elvira's House of Horrors. What's that have to do with Scared Stiff? Well, it's turning down because I think people are kind of forgetting about it. Scared Stiff, even as a 90s ballet WPC, wasn't always the deepest code-wise. But now on the Nordman upgraded House of Horrors, Lyman Sheets has made this close to a classic, a masterpiece. So the pricing on Scared Stiff has become a bit scared as well. Lower sixes now for a really good condition Scared Stiff. And if you want a really nice one, you can get them in the upper sixes, lower sevens. That hadn't happened for a while, people. Still a very lovely game. Wonderful game. I love Scared Stiff. But the evaluation of it in the secondary market just doesn't agree from a numbers standpoint. And what can I say? Numbers don't lie. Only the facts here, mofo, on the pinball show. Sorry, big head. I can name a couple fucking deadheads in pinball. Hi-yo. Baba booey. Unfortunately, trending down this week as well is voting integrity. Now, what I'm saying here, listener, is where are people's integrity in pinball? Something they didn't learn growing up as a small future lover of pinball? What happened, Dennis, with integrity? Back in my day, people had integrity. It just, it's gone. Like, why would you ever want to win any of these damn awards? I don't care which award, you pick your award. Why do you want to win any of them if it's not backed up by something? Why tell people to vote numerous times and have non-pinball people vote? How do you feel good about winning that? I would never feel good about it. Some people, Zach, advance themselves only through victory. It just doesn't feel good. If I get something, I want to earn it, damn it. It doesn't have to be tangible. I just want to earn it. I couldn't lay my head down on the pillow at night, listener, if I knew that I'd asked you to do whatever it means necessary to get me a trophy. And I'm honestly not even talking about anybody in particular. I just, I've heard it so much and I'm like, come on guys. You can't feel good about telling people this.
    74:28
    Earn, earn things in life. Don't take that for granted. Life's too short. Probably a very stupid trend in your opinion, Dennis, but integrity. More pointless than anything. That's a standard behavior, Zach, standard behavior from folks. And we can jump on over to Deal of the Week to save you a penny or two. Bye, bye, bye. Bye, bye, bye indeed. This week, Pinside's kind of high in their marketplace. Nothing really that's screaming deals for me, so like a good dealer, Flippin' Out is here to give you a deal of the week. Oh, wait a minute. Copyright strike from State Farm for that.
    75:07
    No, it was a parody. We'll be okay. I can defend it if they try to do a takedown. Don't worry. I was going to do a Beatles Platinum Edition, and I was going to slash the rate, but then I go on Pinside, and I see one for $6,400. Yeah, right. I click on it, and it was a misprint. It says platinum, but then when you go into it, it's a gold for $6,400. Wow. But you know what? I'll tell you what. What? What do you tell me? I want to give people a deal of the week. This week's deal of the week is a platinum edition. Maybe there's not a deal. Platinum edition used for $6,900. Buy, buy, buy! I'm telling you because I'm being honest. I'm losing money there. $6,900, but you have to mention that you heard it from the pinball show. Buy, buy, buy! God, why did I say $6,900? Why did you say they had to mention the pinball show? That's like when I did that market trend back on Twip Podcast. I just want to get something out of it. You know the best market trend that ever was. I can't – Oh, you do not want to give that to me. But you know deep down in your heart that it's true. under a new system where I do a partial rank choice I think you'd make my list but best I think I'm pleased by that but I'm not sure but best I don't know what we're measuring anymore $6,900 I don't know I wanted to say $71 but for some reason it just came out $6,900 for a platinum that's just stupid people somebody buy the damn thing do you think you could go to $66.66 I've got it like the alien thing I've got it in the 7000s, and people want to buy it, but they want to ship it. And honestly, I just don't want to ship the damn thing. Hey, you're the one who gets always like when people say pick up only. You always sound dejected. They shouldn't say that. And here you are saying it. If people want to set up their own shipping, and STI just comes here and pick it up, that's fine. But if I've got to fold it up, then I've got to pallet it, then I've got to blanket it. That shit's expensive. No, just tell them, yeah, you'll ship it. I mean, they have to arrange an STI. Just tell them that. That's fair. Don't tell them they're going to get your pin pod. You know what's leaving the day of my Avengers elite? STI's coming to pick that up.
    77:23
    In comes Led Zeppelin. Coming soon. And that was your pin pod! I'm not going to joke myself. Been a little bit dejected this week. Market trends.
    77:33
    It's best to accept reality. At least I'm transparent about it. Dennis, that was a fun show. can you let people know where they can check you out between now and next time? Sure. Yeah. I rate us about a 7 out of 10 this time. That's fine. I'm with you. Yeah, if they want to reach out, they can email eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. I do that over with Tony, and I check the messages so it's easier to reach me through those venues. Oh, and you guys did a little bit of the hula hoop last week on EGP. I liked it.
    78:05
    Who do you think would be better at a hula hoop contest? You or Tony? Oh, gosh. Who's got the I've never been good with it, so I guess you would.
    78:15
    I'm trying to remember, when did we mention hula? Eula. Oh, Eula. A word play. See, we're a six out of ten now because I didn't even catch that. I should have went Eula-youp instead of Eula-hoop, but. No, no, no, I think you were right to do Eula-hoop. Okay. Yeah, no, I think Tony, I think he, I mean, he has two daughters, so they might own some hula hoops. He might have some practice. because he's got kids, and I don't have a hula hoop. I have a belt, and I guess if I plump myself up a little bit, I can try and kind of hula into it. A belt? I can just picture your childhood being that fucking rolling ring, and you hit it with the stick.
    78:53
    And you're like, thanks, Dad, for not throwing away this Christmas present. Since you like old-timey, lame-dinner stuff, I'll give you one here at the end. Yes! All right. Thank you. Tell me if I've shared this one before about the steel pennies. no you haven't please okay so one of the games i used to play as a kid is i would blindfold myself and i would throw a steel penny from during world war ii copper was needed for the war efforts they made some pennies in steel and so i have some and i would throw them in the living room blindfolded and i would try and find them with a magnet would you still be blindfolded when you're trying to find them with the magnet then well i would usually just keep my eyes closed but it would be like being blindfolded and i would i like and i just sweep the little magnet to try and find the penny and uh while i crawled on the floor and that was my game how many did you throw to to seek i think up to three a low amount this wasn't like you're well i only had so many you weren't bobbing for apple not super rare but i don't have a ton of them okay did you ever lose one of these said steal pennies oh maybe oh maybe did your sister participate or does she think you're just no no So she didn't play with magnets.
    80:09
    She had toys. Oh, my God. I had pennies. Have you ever been shocked in your life? Shocked? Like significantly.
    80:18
    Do you mean like electrocuted? Yes. Yeah. Another time I was playing a game with a nightlight with the light off and I was dumb and I held on to the prongs when I plugged it in. Yep. And the only reason I ask is you seemed like an inquisitive child that liked electricity experiments. myself with that. I had a Halloween pin. It was an orange thing. You'd clip on a coat or something. There was a short. It would shock me through the pin. I kept putting it on because it tickled.
    80:48
    Wow. It tickled my heart. Of course, I've been electrocuted working on pinball machines. You flicked a 9-volt? No, I've never done that. You should. When I was real little, if you want to know how dumb I really can be. When I was real little, one time I was playing in my dad's truck and I pushed in the cigarette lighter and I thought, oh, look, it's pretty. It glows red. And I just pushed my finger right into it.
    81:13
    Yeah, that left a mark. Do you still have like a calloused fingertip? No, no, that healed up. I cut myself with my mom's razor. My sister cut herself with the razor and they blamed me. They said she was too little to climb up there that I climbed up and got it down for her so she would cut herself. You're like, bullshit. I might have done it. And then your dad said, here goes another present. I think they were more annoyed because that did scar her. A wood chipper.
    81:40
    Yeah, a wood chipper might scar her too. Well, no. You can catch us both at the pinballnetwork at gmail.com, as well as myself individually with Straight Down the Middle, the video series on YouTube. Thanks for the continued support, both with TPN, TPS, and Straight Down the Middle. Hell, and Flippin' Out Pinball. Our machine showcase this week. Hold up. It says alien pre-order. I didn't know you sold aliens.
    82:08
    Ooh, ladies and gentlemen, coming soon. Flippin' Out Pinball is in the paperwork stage of finalizing becoming a dealer. You're merging with Cointaker. No.
    82:19
    Well, Melissa and I did talk. I confess my heart has greatly desired this. Yes, yes. I'm coming over to. Now, Melissa was kind enough to fill me in on some of the things going on with Pinball Brothers. And, yep, signing us up, I believe, for distribution of that. So if you're interested in an alien, we're taking pre-orders now. Pricing is $77.77 plus shipping. Usually brings you out to about $81.95. How about it, people? That's my alien sound. Well, that works. If you're interested in an LE, we'll have more information in the coming months. but we can get you on the list. Once? Yeah, it's going to be a while. Oh, wow. It's going to be a while. Well, at least you're transparent. Yeah, I don't want to lie to people. If you have a specific number, request you're wanting for an LE, just let us know, but we'll start working on that. So yeah, it looks like I'll have an alien in the showroom at some point. How about them alien apples?
    83:19
    Batman 66 Premium's in stock. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Premium is in stock. Avengers Pro is in stock. Do I really have Avengers? I might have one. Hot Wheels we have left. We also have Star Wars Comic Pro. Medieval Madness Accessories in stock. And Avengers Side Art and Armor in stock. And TMNT and JP, that's Jurassic Park Armor, is in stock. If you want to wonk a CE, we got that as well.
    83:45
    TPN last week. What happened last week? We had a lot. Yeah, most recently Joel Engelberg with Recapping 2020. Just another pinball? Then we had prior to that, on Wednesday, we had Final Round Pinball Podcast, talking about the reach-arounds, and they had special guests on there that made my entire year. They're searching for the artifact. Oh, the relics, baby. Prior to that, we had some visitors that crashed our committee meeting, didn't we? Steve and Moppy. That's right. I don't know why that excited me so much. It excited everyone. Maybe they were a little too excited, quite frankly. Maybe we should air that. I don't. Just the looks on our faces. We're like, what in the hell? I think Emily Cosson asked her dad, why is the one guy so grumpy, meaning me?
    84:39
    Shout out to Emily Cosson. Oh, my God. Because we've gone three hours and now there are puppets everywhere. That's right. We've got puppets. This is my nature. We've got Joel being too nice about everything. Joel's a nice person. He's a sweetheart. we also had uh jesse j's pinball adventures what's coming up this week zach oh i do think we have craig bobby with a special guest for his midweek show we should be hearing soon from him there it's going to interview his machine so yeah we're due for that and all the other fun that comes with the pinball network check out the streamers as well and special shout out to all of those that are a part of the pinball industry awards and all the hard work that we're doing for that and george fisher is working on a website i'm happy about yeah he did the work on the pinball industry awards website which i really like how he i really like his look i do too dave dennis helped a lot with the forums you helped a lot with the forums we had a lot of help this would not have happened if there wasn't a lot i thank everyone for for all of the help both on the governance committee and just the those in tpn that were willing to either serve on excellence or just give their feedback on what they thought would and would not work. Yeah, it has been a total team effort just like everything else here. I love it. It really has. I think we've had something like on the order of 16 different individuals weigh in and help us. Great things happen to those who work as part of a group. Remember, there's no I in teamwork. No we either. That was chipper. Until next week, for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. Remember, if you have a third flipper and a middle ramp and you make it, Only feel shame. And always practice safe pinball and nothing but love for Loser Kid's Slam Tilt and Chronicles Up. So long, everybody. Oh, here she comes. Watch out, boy, she'll chew you up. Oh, here she comes. She's a man-eater.
    86:35
    Oh, here she comes. Watch out, boy, she'll chew you up. Oh, here she comes. She's a man-eater. Thank you.