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Episode 13 - Pabst, Colorization, Pokémon, and Mars Attacks

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 7m·analyzed·Aug 18, 2016
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

MMR colorization fee sparks debate over DLC-style pricing for pre-installed hardware.

Summary

Tony and Dennis discuss the Eclectic Gamers Podcast podcast covering pinball and video games. Key topics include their tournament results, a Pabst Blue Ribbon EM reskin by Donny Gillies (Dirty Donny) based on Woe Nelly, and significant community controversy over Medieval Medieval Madness (Remake) $199-$399 colorization fee for an already-capable color LCD display. The hosts critique poor communication from the manufacturer and debate whether the pricing is fair given the feature was pre-installed.

Key Claims

  • Medieval Medieval Madness (Remake) colorization improves resolution by approximately 4x compared to original Color DMD

    medium confidence · Dennis states: 'I believe it's supposed to be about four times better is my understanding. I've looked at the differences between the monochrome and the MMR color in stills, And yeah, the quality, it's there.'

  • The color feature and code are already installed on all MMR machines; only a security chip is needed to enable it

    high confidence · Dennis: 'The color is already downloaded and installed on all the games that's currently updated... there's a security chip that you get shipped to turn on the color but you wouldn't technically need the security chip.'

  • Medieval Medieval Madness (Remake) manufacturer initially suggested they would try to make colorization free for LE buyers

    medium confidence · Dennis: 'when the coloring was originally announced the statements that came out from the company suggested that they were going they didn't promise but they indicated that they would try and make the color update free for le buyers'

  • MMR has experienced quality control issues with playfields

    medium confidence · Tony: 'I know they've been having some quality control issues with the play fields and stuff that I've read about'

  • Color DMD pricing ($400) is comparable to MMR colorization fee ($399)

    high confidence · Dennis: 'by comparison, Color DMD sells their unit for $400. So it's about the same price.'

Notable Quotes

  • “The color is already downloaded and installed on all the games that's currently updated... they're choosing to do it that way to kind of put it behind a paywall.”

    Dennis @ ~2:10:00 — Explains the core controversy: the colorization feature exists in hardware but is paywalled via security chip

  • “It's kind of like there's a point in time where a lot of video games were coming out with preloaded DLC that you had to pay for, but it was already on the desk type stuff.”

    Tony @ ~2:15:00 — Frames the colorization fee as analogous to preloaded video game DLC, a widely criticized industry practice

  • “The poor communication is in a way shocking it's just how badly they've communicated the color update especially given all the delays they were plagued with”

    Dennis @ ~2:08:00 — Identifies communication failure as the primary concern, separate from the pricing question itself

  • “I think the overall look that Donny Gillies (Dirty Donny) did with this is awesome I think it looks great, I think it adheres to the classic pinball look but without being the over the top tongue in cheek style that Woe Nelly is.”

    Dennis @ ~1:15:00 — Expresses strong approval of Pabst pin aesthetic while noting it may be less polarizing than Woe Nelly's intentional parody style

  • “Everything I see is that van, man. The van is just awesome to me. I see it and I just want that table because I like the back glass. I like the field. I like the van.”

    Tony @ ~1:18:00 — Demonstrates visual appeal of Pabst machine's van artwork as primary draw for collectors

  • “the machines were over eight thousand dollars to begin with so it's just sort of a question of what how much how much do we have to pay for extra dlc when the initial product was so much above retail”

    Tony @ ~2:20:00 — Places colorization fee in context of already-premium MMR pricing ($8,000+), questioning additional charges

Entities

TonypersonDennispersonDonny Gillies (Dirty Donny)personPinball Done Quickevent403 CluborganizationPizza WestorganizationWhoa Nellie! Big Juicy MelonsgameMedieval Madness Remakegame

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Manufacturer's poor communication about colorization feature, including initial suggestion of free LE upgrade that was not delivered

    high · Dennis: 'The poor communication is in a way shocking it's just how badly they've communicated the color update especially given all the delays they were plagued with'

  • ?

    community_signal: Major dispute over Medieval Madness Remake colorization pricing ($199-$399 for pre-installed feature), with community framing it as predatory DLC model similar to video game industry practices

    high · Dennis describes reading entire lengthy forum thread; Tony compares to preloaded video game DLC; both note quality control issues compounding frustration

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinball Done Quick tournament format with 5-minute time limits creates different strategic demands than standard play; affects optimal shot selection and mode prioritization

    medium · Tony struggled with Attack from Mars strategy because multiball/Total Annihilation strategy too time-consuming for 5-minute scoring window

  • $

    market_signal: Premium MMR pricing ($8,000+) combined with additional DLC-style colorization fees raising questions about sustainable pricing model and customer tolerance

    medium · Tony: 'the machines were over eight thousand dollars to begin with so it's just sort of a question of what how much how much do we have to pay for extra dlc'

  • ?

    community_signal: Dirty Donnie bringing custom art direction to modernized EM aesthetic; explicitly avoiding over-the-top tongue-in-cheek tone of original Woe Nelly to appeal to broader audience

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.203

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. This is episode 13. It is Sunday, July 17th. I'm Tony. And I'm Dennis. And we're a podcast about pinball and video games and tabletop gaming. So we'll start out like we always do with what we've been up to lately. What have you been up to, Dennis? Oh, gosh, I've been up to an awful lot, and almost all of it related to the topics at hand for once. So I can't say I've really done much in the way of movies, though I did see that ultimate edition of the Batman v. Superman. I've heard that it completely changes everything, and it's actually good. Well, I didn't see the theatrical release, so I cannot confirm nor can I deny that it does that. It was okay. The movie was okay. I was still confused for the first 45 minutes, which I didn't like. There were a lot of parts to it that were pretty dumb and were frustrating. But overall, it was definitely competent, and at least in that director's cut style ultimate version, it isn't nearly as bad as Green Lantern was or anything like that. So I would just say it was a mediocre, acceptable movie, and I would recommend going ahead and watching that version. just to sort of, if you want to stay up with what's going to go in the DC universe, you're not going to go away from that and be like, whoa, that totally wasted my time. You'll probably go, meh, Marvel would have done it better, which is fair. Well, yeah, I mean, it's Marvel. That's what they do is do it better. Marvel loses in TV and DC loses in the movies. That seems to be how it's been for the last couple of years. Yeah, it's sad. I feel bad because I have a more attachment just childhood-wise. I wasn't a comic book reader, but I have more attachment to the DC characters. So I always wanted them to just sort of had success because those are the characters I know best. But on the plus side with the Marvel stuff, I tend to learn about new characters because I usually have no idea about any of them. So that aside, let's see. So in the realm of pinball, we both were at the 403 Club tournament last week. And for me, I got destroyed, went to and out. Yeah, I lost it as well. It was not a good showing for me at 403. Actually, and I had Pizza West yesterday. I went to and out there as well. So I haven't had a good showing for the month of July. But I will note that at 403, I actually set my two highest scores ever back to back on Walking Dead. They have the Walking Dead LE there. And I got my highest score. And then on the extra credit, I got my second highest score, which I was really pleased with. I had that game on both of my tournament draws and I did awful. They were really poor scores. Instead of burning your bad games out first, you burned your good games out first and then you were stuck with the bad ones. I should have. I should quit playing Walking Dead because it makes me always want to own one because I really like it. Which is interesting because a lot of other games that use that style of mechanic, I don't like. I don't like Metallica very much. See, I like Metallica and I like Walking Dead both. I mean, they're both fun games to me. I'm not sure what exactly draws me to those games as strongly as they do, but they're both big enjoyments for me. I'm not very good. I'm not as good as I should be at them. Yeah, no, and I'm pretty bad on both of the tables. It's just for me, they both, I group them together because they both, to me, have this, their strategy is what I call the chopping wood strategy of hit a shot over and over and over, and then that gets you into a mode, versus what we see with something like Kiss, Star Trek, Game of Thrones, where you have the – well, Game of Thrones is its own sort of unique beast, but Kiss and Star Trek where you have the glowing lit shots and you kind of pick your mode. Mustang is the same way, that sort of approach. And generally I prefer that ladder style to the chopping wood style. But for me, Metallica feels like I'm just chop, chop, chopping, whereas with Walking Dead I get into it. I feel more like I'm in the theme, I guess. And part of it's probably that I watch The Walking Dead, so I appreciate the theme more than I do the band Metallica, which I never was a huge fan of. But, okay, so that was that for what I'll call primary pinball. But I do have some update stuff in terms of the world of virtual pinball. As I noted at last week's episode, we talked briefly about Summer Games Done Quick, which is that charity speed running. I did not know at the time whether or not Pinball Done Quick was going to happen, and it did. So I did watch some Pinball Done Quick as well. one of the things they did in conjunction with it was they had announced a pinball arcade tournament which i had never participated in before but it was it was the steam version 10 tables and you would you had access to them whether you owned the packs or not and it was the highest score you recorded and you could do it over and over throughout the entire duration of that tournament which i think was about 10 days the trick though because it was in the done quick theme was you only had five minutes to do the scoring so it you know that made it a very interesting challenge because you had games and as you as you know because i contacted you because for example one of the tables was attack from mars my strategy when i actually play attack from mars did not lend itself to scoring high scores or at least i wasn't getting very high up on the list which is why i was like what can i do i only have five minutes what what because i i was like i was going into the multi ball i was trying to get total annihilation and it was just taking way too long i was one getting enough points for the effort so it was that and then nine other tables and so i it was fat i mean it sucked me on in and i will admit they did have some prizes which they're actually at the time of this recording they have not done the drawings yet they were supposed to but they've been pushed back to later that later today but was i think anyone in the top 100 was is in a drawing for some sign trans lights and anyone in the top 50 was in a drawing for for some sort of laptop. So, you know, they kind of had a little incentive there to try and get you going. And based off of my placement, I knew that keeping in the top 100 was going to be pretty easy. But staying in the top 50 did require effort. So I actually had to keep going in every single day and bumping up at least some of my scores. I did end up out of 345 players, I placed 37th at the end of it. My best table was an old EM called Big Shot, which I got the 13th highest score on and my worst table was theater of magic which i got 77th on and uh so anyway it was it definitely occupied me uh in between the last podcast and this one because my steam copy of pinball arcade i mostly play the xbox copy but my steam copy of pinball arcade went up from 12 hours played to 47 that's a slight increase and it was all tournament other than a couple times where i I had to go in and just load up the rules on the scoring stuff because I couldn't access the rules through the tournament. And other than that, like the rest of the world, apparently, I've started up playing Pokemon Go, which we'll hit on more later on. I've never actually played a Pokemon game before. So since it was free and everyone else I knew was doing it, I've downloaded it. I've loaded it up some. I've not been going out and really diving a whole lot into it. But I can load it up at work because we're a pokey stop because we're a historic building and get all that sort of stuff. So anyway, so what have you been up to? Well, I already talked about how I got smashed at 403 just like you did. I didn't get to go to Pizza West tournament this month because I've been doing some family stuff and getting ready. And seeing as I'm going to be gone all next weekend, I figured I'd spend some quality family time. And I've done the impossible, and I have completely caught up on my podcast list. and maintained being caught up on my podcast list. I'm sitting at a point right now that except for on Tuesdays, I'm only having maybe two hours of podcast a day to listen to. So I'm burning through them like instantly in the mornings before I even get to work normally. And I've been listening to some audio books. I've started listening to audio books since I'm on a podcast. I started playing Pokemon Go. We'll talk about that more later. Oh, I found out that Amazon has The Newsroom on Amazon Prime for free. So I've been watching that because I'm a real big Aaron Sorkin fan, and I'd never seen The Newsroom before as opposed to The West Wing, which I've seen multiple times and owned the box DVD set of the entire series, and Sports Night, which I've seen before, and this and that. And I've been enjoying the show. It's pretty good. It's only like three seasons, so there's not a whole lot of show to it. But it's been enjoyable what I've seen. I'm a little over halfway through the entire series at this time. Oh, okay. That'll have to be one I'll check out then. Because, yeah, I'm a big fan of Aaron Sorkin's writing. Yeah, no, he just, his dialogue and the way his shows and everything, it's just amazing. I love them. Go walk and talk, man. Go walk and talk. And since this is a new show, there's walk and talk, and there's sit and stare directly into the camera and talk now also. Yes, the George Lucas method. Camera A, Camera B. Exactly. Jeff Daniels is the main character, and he does an amazing job. The entire cast is really good, but Jeff Daniels does an amazing job. I really have been enjoying it. Awesome. And that's about all I've been doing otherwise. I mean, playing more Overwatch that nobody wants to listen to anymore, and I've been reading them up to book four a wheel of time. But that's about it. I haven't done anything really interesting in the last couple of weeks. Well, we'll be taking care of that next weekend. Yes, we will. All right. I guess we'll go ahead and transition into the first main topic then, which would be pinball. This is a big way. It is, yes. I tried to make it as smooth as a chainsaw. And so we're going to start with what we've been starting with, which is the 1980s Pinball Machine Mania Tournament. We've got round five to go over. it was to say oh to sum it up in a word decisive the results the results in no way surprised me uh there were two matchups pinbot which is a williams game and a number five seed in our ranking system beat haunted house which is got leaves game and it was a number one seed and it won with 80 of the vote yep i was very pleased as my one vote indicated to pinbot and then eight 8-Ball Deluxe, which was a Bally title, came in as a four seed, beat Sea Witch, Stern title, came in as a one seed with 76.7% of the vote. And I supported 8-Ball Deluxe in that. So they were not only, I felt no surprise, Williams and Bally were, I think, are easily seen as the better manufacturers from the decade overall. So if you didn't know anything else, I think this is what people would have guessed from the get-go. Yeah, these are the obvious ones. I voted for these two as well. So it's what was expected. I mean, we actually had, I think, more challenging matchups early. You know, things like Elvira not being one of the finalists, for example. That's probably more surprising than that eight ball ends up beating a stern title that not many people have even been able to play. Yeah, that's my biggest idea. or idea that's my biggest surprise yeah so we're at the final round final matchup so there's just be one vote and we'll have the link in the show notes and we'll get it announced as we normally do but it's going to be the williams game pin bot is going to face off against the bally's eight ball deluxe for all the marbles and we'll we'll see who reigns supreme neither of these titles is the at least as of when we built the brackets is the highest rated uh 1980s game on the pin side ranking system that was elvira which is why i noted it earlier so we've already sort of and you can tell by the seating i mean uh bally uh bally's eight ball deluxe being the four seed it was the fourth highest bally game from the 80s i could find in the list and pinbot was the fifth highest williams so basically the results already show that the pin side rankings are grossly inaccurate and that's no way surprising yes yes it's it's the pin side ratings that that have the bad stats. They've been corrupted by an oft-maligned and appropriately so system that is skewed and weighted in weird ways, and there's a lot of troll voting, and it's just not like ours. Ours has remained pure and innocent as it should. I'll probably just send the bracket over to the pin side and just have their moderators just replace the scores with the results of this, because they might as well clean up the system. Well, yeah, it makes sense. I mean, that's what I would do. I don't see why you wouldn't. Anyway, next episode, we will have those final announcements.
Pabst Blue Ribbon
game
Color DMDcompany
The Walking Dead (LE)game
Metallicagame
Attack from Marsgame
Big Shotgame
Theatre of Magicgame
Eclectic Gamers Podcastorganization
Pinsideorganization
Pinball Arcadeproduct
Pokemon Gogame

medium · Dennis: 'I think it adheres to the classic pinball look but without being the over the top tongue in cheek style that Woe Nelly is... this one will be a little less polarizing'

  • ?

    announcement: Dirty Donnie's Pabst Blue Ribbon EM reskin officially revealed; based on Woe Nelly platform with updated aesthetic and custom van artwork; includes metal band sound design

    high · Hosts discuss artwork, theme appeal, and gameplay implications; note this was first announced in Episode 2 as unspecified Stern project

  • ?

    product_strategy: MMR colorization offers 4x resolution improvement over Color DMD at similar $400 price point, but delivered as software unlock rather than hardware replacement

    high · Dennis: 'The resolution is improved, and I believe it's supposed to be about four times better... the quality looks great. And I think it looks a lot better than what you get out of the color DMD'

  • ?

    product_concern: Medieval Madness Remake experiencing quality control issues with playfields, adding to customer dissatisfaction alongside pricing controversy

    medium · Tony mentions 'quality control issues with the play fields' he has read about; Dennis notes broader communication issues but doesn't detail specific quality problems

  • ?

    technology_signal: Color DMD technology adoption becoming standard expectation in pinball hobby; seen as essential mod despite $400 price

    medium · Dennis: 'A lot of people feel that it is the number one mod that you need for your game... There are a lot of people who put the color DMDs in games'

    • 13:16
    And I don't plan to have a new tournament immediately for that next episode, but we'll probably launch into the next one pretty quick after that because these work pretty well. They don't take a lot of time for us to go through, and the votes almost run themselves, so it's wonderful. All right, let's go ahead and move on to our next pinball topic, which was a surprise to me, but it is the Pabst Can Crusher. an EM pin, a reskin essentially of Woe Nelly Big Juicy Melons. I want to just initially note that this is what Dirty Donnie has been working on. And for those who have been listening to the podcast way, way, way, way, way back in episode two is when we actually talked about that we knew Dirty Donnie was working on something. He had announced that he was doing a new Stern project. We had assumed at the time that he was doing a music pin because that is what It's Dirty Donny. It's got a bitchin' van.
    14:38
    Yes, yes. It almost reminds me of a tripped-out Scooby-Doo van. I know. I love full-size vans. We had several growing up. I drive one now, though mine is not nearly as awesome as the one in that artwork is.
    14:55
    Well, maybe you should get Dirty Donnie to paint it for you. I'd have to get somebody to fix all the rust first. Oh, no, no. That adds character. but that was the first thing I noticed when I first looked at the pictures I'm not a big Pabst guy because I'm not a big beer guy when it comes to drinking I tend to aim for liquor myself but I like the art a lot I haven't played Wonnelly so I don't know how it plays so I can't have a guess on that but I really like the art, I like the van his art style is just nice and I think it fits really well with the Pabst Also, I love this whole modernized modern EM thing that Wonelli had going on and now that this has going on.
    15:42
    This game, just to me, between that and the art and everything, just screams to me as a game that should be sitting in the back corner of a grungy neighborhood bar. And I love that.
    15:53
    That's awesome. Yeah. And I also have never played Wonelli. so while I've heard great things about the shot layout and that the game is fun I can't comment on the gameplay I haven't even watched a video I take that back, I've seen some live footage on Twitch of some people trying to play Woe Nelly so I've sort of seen some video but I can't really comment on the gameplay I think the overall look that Dirty Donnie did with this is awesome I think it looks great, I think it adheres to the classic pinball look but without being the over the top tongue in cheek style that Woe Nelly is. And so I think this one will be a little less polarizing. When I see this, I actually think, wow, this actually looks like a classically designed pinball, actually with higher quality art. But without taking those themes that were in some of the classic pinball art styles and then just sort of dialing them to 11 as a joke which is sort of what Wonelli does But like you I was just sort of like but Pabst Really And again I don drink much either And the only thing is I always just sort of remembered it as Pabst was the cheap beer for college kids who didn't care about flavor. Or as a person I work with would say, well, he would drink one good beer and then he would just switch to Pabst after that because he didn't care after the first beer. And he's in his 60s. So that was always sort of my sense of the brand. However, I have, because to be a proper professional podcast, I did do some research on this, and it seems to be that urban hipsters have actually given Pabst Blue Ribbon specifically a resurgence in popularity. Do hipsters buy pinball machines? I don't know. I think they like to play them, in Seattle at least, but I don't know if they actually drive the purchasing decisions or not. I don't think it really matters because regardless of it, I think this looks great. And so if the gameplay is good, if people know they like the Lonelli gameplay, I mean, this would be the one I would want in my game room. I think it looks bitchin' was a great choice of words. So, I mean, very evocative and very 80s to sort of tie in with our previous tournament discussion. Everything I see is that van, man. The van is just awesome to me. I see it and I just want that table because I like the back glass. I like the field. I like the van. I like everything about the rest of the art but the van just stands out perfect and it just screams the theme to me it's just awesome I really enjoy it and I feel bad because I didn't put this in my notes but I guess it actually has not just like chimes and stuff but there was a heavy metal band that has done sound for the pen yeah I read that I thought I noted down their name but I do not find it in my notes but I read that when I was looking it up earlier I should have because I even went to their Facebook page because I don't really follow metal bands. So it was just sort of... Anyway, so I guess it's got some cool sounds. So if you're into metal, look into it and look up the band name. You might actually just want to check it out just to hear the sound. But anyway, no, I think this looks great.
    19:02
    Probably, you know, unless and until I ever get to try either it or a Wonelli, I wouldn't know if I would actually want to own one because the gameplay would trump the look for me no matter what. But, hey, who knows? Maybe we'll – I can always just throw out our usual throwout, which is maybe the 403 Club in Kansas City area will get this pin and bring it in because I've gotten almost everything else that's new. So come on. If any of you are listening, come on, guys. You've got to hook us up. I can't be buying all this stuff. Yeah, me neither as much as I would like to, especially this one. I like EMs, and I could live with this machine in my collection that currently has no machines in it. Yeah, and there's no higher endorsement than that. Okay, well, we only have one more pinball topic to go through today, but I wanted to bring it up because, as I mentioned before regarding ratings, I've mentioned Pinside, which for those that don't know, it's one of the primary pinball discussion forums that exists online. medieval madness remake uh there has been an ongoing sort of anticipation for colorization of medieval madness and so i guess for some background for those that aren't really into pinball that much or especially into modding it and such dmd displays up until recently have been monochrome so they're they're just actually they're singular colors they're just colorized dots that's what they are uh there has been a company uh color dmd which has been going back and getting the dots individualized they you know through their patents and such they colorize the dots and then they sell a replacement dmd that can do their color and so you can put those into old machines and colorize them and this exists for the original medieval madness however the medieval madness remake the display is capable what's capable from color like is you know It was an LCD. So it was already set so it could do color, but it came as it was sort of built to be, like the original, which meant singular color. However, they have now released the ability for people to turn on a colorization form. And the price point on that is $199 for those LE buyers. It has to be the original LE buyers is my understanding. And $399 for everyone else. and by comparison, Color DMD sells their unit for $400. So it's about the same price. My understanding is, and if anyone wants to research it, they can, but I believe it's not just color in the case of the MMR. The resolution is improved, and I believe it's supposed to be about four times better is my understanding.
    21:44
    I've looked at the differences between the monochrome and the MMR color in stills, And yeah, the quality, it's there. I mean, the quality looks great. The color looks great. And I think it looks a lot better than what you get out of the color DMD, which obviously isn't upping the resolution. It's just adding color to certain individual dots to give a variance versus the monochrome. So the drama, because that's really what's driving this, besides the fact that it took a really long time for the pricing information to even come out, has been whether or not it's fair to charge people $400 for a game that already came with a color screen and you're just getting the color dots turned on. Whereas in the color DMD model, you're actually getting a whole new display device. you're able to take out your old dmd um you know sell that kind of serve as a partial refund because dmds can out gas and and wear out and people need to replace theirs and a lot of times they use old old ones and do that and so you know it's sort of like a to tie it into the video game thing some people kind of see this as it's like a dlc thing that they're charging us for dlc and i guess there's a security chip that you get shipped to turn on the color but you wouldn't technically need the security chip. They're choosing to do it that way to kind of put it behind a paywall. The color is already downloaded and installed on all the games that's currently updated. Again, my understanding, the threat is massive. I have read the whole thing, but over time, and I don't remember it all that well, because I do not own one of these games. But anyway, that's sort of the background. I guess let's go ahead and kick off on a discussion here. And so, Tony, what are your thoughts in terms of, I guess, what do you think, how it looks, and what do you think about the price? Well, I think it looks amazing. I mean, the images of comparing them is, there's nothing at all even close. It just looks awesome. But the fact that it's something that's already built in the system and you have to, it's kind of like there's a point in time where a lot of video games were coming out with preloaded DLC that you had to pay for, but it was already on the desk type stuff. And it feels kind of like that. It's like, well, you shipped me the ability to do this. Why wasn't this priced in what was shipped? And I know that there's been some other issues with the MMR machine. I know they've been having some quality control issues with the play fields and stuff that I've read about. And then when you combine that with stuff like, we shipped you this, and here's the little special code you need to undo it to make it actually work, and that's going to be another $400. bucks and if you don't do the code well yeah you your machine has the ability to do it it's just you didn't pay us the extra 400 bucks stuff like that just seems a little sketchy to me yeah i have mixed feelings on it i guess my overall thoughts are the um the main thing is that the poor communication is in a way shocking it's just how badly they've communicated the color update especially given all the delays they were plagued with i don't want to say it's inexcusable but I can't fathom who came up with a communication plan that was this poor. I just have to assume they never came up with one. I don't think it's in any way surprising that they are charging color DMD pricing. Color DMD has been highly successful in the hobby. A lot of people feel that it is the number one mod that you need for your game. If you have a game and it has a DMD display, you should put a color DMD in it. There are a lot of people who put the color DMDs in games that have not been colorized, just waiting for the colorized code to come out. And they use it in the monochrome mode until then. I have two DMD games currently, and this is not a bridge I've had to cross because neither of my games are colorized. But I've always felt that the color DMD, I always thought $400 for a display was a pretty high price. So it's not been a mod that I have latched onto as being a necessity, but I've seen a number of color DMDs on location here in the Kansas City area, And they do look cool, so I completely understand why people love them. Oh, yeah, I love color DMDs. I've seen several color DMDs, and it's amazing how much better they make the machine. Yeah, Metallica, for example, I think looks great with its color DMD. Yeah. We had a road show that was on route at one point in time that didn't have the color DMD, and then they added the color DMD while it was still on route, and it was just amazing how much better it looked. So, again, I completely get why people will say, you know what, if you're going to do any modding, that's the mod you want to get because it makes such a visual difference. And it does. I don't really have an opinion on the price difference for the MMRs that they're doing between the LEs and the standard editions. I think anyone who bought an LE is probably going to do this because it's $200 less and the resolution is so much better than what the color in the DMD looks like. And I don't think you can stick the color DMDs into MMRs. mmrs they're just for the original medieval madnesses anyway so i think it's almost a no-brainer there the issue that sort of came up is when the coloring was originally announced the statements that came out from the company suggested that they were going they didn't promise but they indicated that they would try and make the color update free for le buyers terrible thing to say if you weren't going to actually do it and i've heard that people have said, okay, that was back when they were just going to color, like color DMD. Look, you're getting 4X resolution. That all makes sense. It doesn't change the fact that that was such a terrible communication blunder that I almost wonder, should they just eat the loss on the $200 for the LE people just to shut the issue up and make them happy? But maybe not. I don't know how many people say no. So, I mean, maybe it's like, no, no, they're going to buy. So why would we do that? Yeah, I can understand that. And the communications blunder thing, that's another thing that seems to have been kind of big news this year in total.
    27:48
    I don't know if you recall, the Oculus was for the longest time bandied that the Oculus, when it came out, would be in the $300 to $400 price range. And they flat out had said that in the year or so leading up to the actual release, and they ended up being double that at the release. and that was a communications thing because somebody was saying, oh, it'll be in that ballpark because to them ballpark means that or double that is still within the same ballpark. Interesting. No, I hadn't remembered that. I remember it was higher than people expected. Yeah, well, that's what it was. Because he'd said, well, it'll be in that ballpark when he was talking $400 and it ended up being $800. Because for some people, that's apparently the same ballpark. Not for me. I don't make enough money for $800 to be the same ballpark as $400. but I think that's definitely a big communication error that needs to be. I don't know if you can fix it. I don't know if it's something you can sit down and do. I think them just charging is what they're going to do. I think that's probably for the best because people are going to pay it. That's what I think as well. So it's not like they're losing anything.
    28:57
    And frankly, I mean, with the issues they've had with the quality control issues and stuff, are they even going to do another one? Are they going to do another remake? As I know, there was always talk about what would be done after MMR, but is there anything else actually in the pipeline, or is the issues with MMR been too much? I don't know. I don't know either. My sense has been that they continue to plan to eventually announce another remake. I think statements have been made indicating that they're going to, but I haven't seen those statements yet. I mean, I haven't seen the announcement yet. And, you know, we'll see. Their communication has been so poor across the board that I don't know what to believe when I see anything coming out on this. Anyway, I just think, you know, since the hardware was already in the purchase, I have trouble thinking that this was a necessary price point. But I think they're going to sell a lot of the color chip codes because it looks so good. But personally, yeah, I think it's kind of high. Yeah, I think it's a little high just because they've already got the displays. The display's already in the machine. that's what's weird to me that's what messes with my head right and the machines were over eight thousand dollars to begin with so it's just sort of a question of what how much how much do we have to pay for extra dlc when the initial product was so much above retail because i'm i'm sorry but retail is stern pro price in my mind that's what i everything's compared to because they're the uh they're the market leader and they put out the most machines currently so it's not just that it's the cheapest unit as well it is but it's just that's what most of the pinball machines that are sold are are Stern Pros. And that's going to be, practically speaking, in the neighborhood of five grand. So this was already really pricey. But yeah, it is what it is. Well, I think that's about enough about Pinball for now. So we're going to go ahead and transition over to our video game topic. And we're going to start out with the newest sensation that is crushing the entire world, and that would be Pokemon Go. Pikachu! This is a game I've always feared, in a way. Once upon a time, there was a comic put out by Dorkly Comics back in 2013. It was talking about a Pokemon MMO and it ending the world.
    31:12
    And we'll have a link to it in the show notes because I hunted it down and found it. But this is definitely something that people have been wanting.
    31:22
    My surprise is just how big it is. I figured it would be big, but I didn't figure it would be this. This is kind of insane. What can I say? I ended up downloading it. I've never actually played a Pokemon game, but all these other people I know are playing it. So it's like, okay, well, it's a craze. And I don't have to play it because it's a craze, but I think we need to talk about it if it's such a big one. And it's a simple enough concept in terms of using these geolocations. Encourages walking around, which I think is good, other than people walking off cliffs, which is unfortunately not good. Though it does warn you when you're loading, Please do not walk off cliffs. It paraphrases that, but that's what they mean.
    32:04
    And, you know, encourage you to play in a variety of locations. So I guess my initial thoughts would just be that I think this speaks in particular to how I think a lot of Nintendo properties could really thrive on phones. And it's been something I've kind of wondered about for a while because, you know, Nintendo's got their whole DS thing going on. And they've always owned the handheld market ever since the Game Boy. Yeah, they have. than their thing. But times they are a-changing, and while they still have been doing well in their handheld market, the issue is everyone has a phone, and almost every one of those people has a smartphone that can actually run software. And it has seemed to me odd. In a way, I get it, because they've got their own little handheld microcosm to operate in. But when everyone's walking around with a platform in their pocket already, it seems kind of like, well, why don't you just start selling stuff on that? And I think this kind of shows what sort of things could really, really succeed because I don't believe there's any video game publisher that matches the IP recognition and nostalgia that Nintendo wields. Yeah, I agree with you, and this is something that a lot of people I've talked to in the past are looking at, because a lot of the portable games and the 3DS games and this and that are, and Nintendo has a lot of just first-party games that could easily be in the telephone market and the tablet market without too much of an issue Now this particular one was a combination of them the Pokemon company working with Niantic and I played Niantic's original AR geolocating game, Ingress, for a while. Yeah, I remember hearing about Ingress. I never actually tried it myself. Yeah, and they used, it seems to me, they used the base data information from Ingress to create this game because, as you can find out, most of the, all the Pokestops and the gyms and all that are all old Ingress portals. And the game plays a lot like Ingress in how it does your location tracking and just the base game stuff feels very similar to Ingress. And I think, like, Ingress started smaller and they kept adding more and more stuff. that's going to be the same way I think that this is going to go because right now out of the gate there's not really a whole lot to do in the game other than collecting Pokemon you can find the gems but there's not a whole lot and if this game is going to continue they're going to have to add more and I'm sure they will and I'm sure they've got plans because there's plenty of things that were they've teased in the commercials and talking about in the past that just aren't there yet, so I'm sure it's coming.
    35:09
    But I'll tell you what's been the most surprising thing to me about Pokemon Go is while it's so popular, the people who don't like it really don't like it. I mean, there is a lot of hate out there for it from what I've seen. What do you think is the source of that hate?
    35:31
    I don't know. I mean, I've talked to some people, and a lot of them are the people who think, oh, well, you should be working, or you're an adult, and adults shouldn't play video games.
    35:45
    And I think a lot of it boils down to the whole fact that it seems like a lot of times anymore that you only have the option of liking something or hating something. You can't be neutral on it. So if you don't like something, you obviously hate it, and you're totally against it. And it's like, oh, you don't like football? Well, you must hate football. No, I just don't really ever think about football. It's not my sport. Oh, you don't like Pokemon? Well, you must hate it. Well, yeah, maybe or maybe not. But it's just I think it's something very polarizing in how the world has been for the last couple of years. I think that's what brings out a lot of the hate is that people just see. And what really messes me up with it is, I mean, it's literally a video game that has kids and adults and people going outside and walking and doing all sorts of stuff. But people are hating on it because it's a video game.
    36:48
    Yeah, you may be right about just the nature of polarization. I lean more towards that it's sheer popularity that results in this sort of vehement hate that we see.
    37:03
    It's too popular. So I'm going to buck the trend, and I'm going to make a big stink about how special I am for not embracing my Pokemon overlords. So I just despise this game because it's popular. And so if it's popular, it's got to be lowbrow, lowest common denominator. I'm above that, and I'm demonstrating that aboveness by being a super special, unique snowflake, which the problem is, congratulations, you're a super special snowflake just like everybody else. So you haven't won anything. But so that's been my assumption is that most of the haters – because by and large, I don't think they've tried it, and that's fine. You don't have to like it. You could hate it out of the gate. But I think a lot of people who hate on it are hating on it because it's super popular. And that annoys them for some reason. It would be the same sort of thing where people would look and go, oh, gosh, everyone loves Game of Thrones. I'm not watching Game of Thrones. That's stupid. It's stupid. Because if it's really popular, how could it be good? Because commoners. Well, that's a valid point. I hadn't actually thought of it that way. But it just being the whole mindset of the people. Well, and some of the categories that you've named I definitely think are in play. So there are going to be some people that don't think adults should be playing games. Okay? You know, that's always sort of been the thing. Video games, that's a stigma that video games in particular, of our topics. You know, I'd say video games and tabletop probably suffer from that the most. Pinball less so because pinball fell out of favor for so long that a lot of young kids don't know about it. And so it's only adults who care anymore. But it's that sort of thing. And it's just, to me, I've seen that for years. It's never been. It obviously doesn't resonate with me. Here I am co-hosting a podcast where we talk about games, games, games, games, and games because we like to play games. The thing is, what's baseball? What's football? It's a game. Sure, it's a sport as well. But it's still all about accomplishing objectives and winning. And that's how I define most games. So it's – that sort of argument is always there. Fair enough about the people who are like, you should be working. Yes, make sure you do your work, ladies and gentlemen. But the idea that people are just sitting there chained to their desks, slaving away eight hours and not having breaks is almost quaint in its unrealistic portrayal of a reality. You know, especially given an American culture in particular, where the problem we've been having is people stay tied into their offices way too much on call, way too much, you know, checking emails while on vacation. Those are symptomatic problems that I would be far more concerned about. But this is not a podcast on how to improve corporate America. So let us move on from that. And then the third aspect of some people, I think, just get annoyed with people being outside but being on the technology. and you know that that's sort of a in a way that almost is just a maybe a cultural thing of my partly generational partly just sort of a thought and look at how great nature is and such and such like i went out walking today as i usually on the weekends i try and do about six and a half miles and uh normally i just i load up my podcasts or music depending on my mood if i'm not paying attention to things it's music if i'm going to pay attention it's podcast time and you know Normally, I just have my walking software, keep the phone in my pocket, and that's what I do. And then this time, I actually had the Pokemon thing going instead of the walking software and occasionally pull it out and see if I saw a little Pokemon. But otherwise, the behavior was still mostly me going around and doing what I normally do. I could see, though, how it might annoy people to watch folks walking around staring at the phone the entire time.
    40:51
    Really, how different is that from what you see folks walking around and doing now? I mean, anytime you go around, you see people that are on their phone all the time. I've seen people on dates that are obviously on dates, sitting at dinner on the phone. They're both on their phones. Yes. And my wife and I do the same thing. We'll sit there and we'll read books or stuff while we're out to dinner if it's just us. I think the people who hate the Pokemon Go game because of that, they hate you for reading as well. Don't worry. Don't feel like they're being hypocritical. I think they hate it when they see people outside on a phone, period. And that's just going to be what it is. It's just a view. It's the view they have. They think you should be appreciating nature, not appreciating a device, which the only thing natural about it is there's a chunk missing out of the sketch of an apple on said device.
    41:47
    You know, that sort of thing. But anyway, so yeah, I guess I'm not too shocked. But again, that just goes back to the whole things that are super popular. It's almost like a countercultural cool thing to hate on things that are really, really popular.
    42:03
    So, I mean, going to a video game example, I really do not care. I don't get the big deal about Dark Souls. And I full cleared the main game. I got all my Xbox 360 achievements in Dark Souls. But I have to be really careful when I would criticize Dark Souls because some people would think that I'm just hating on Dark Souls because it was really popular. with a set of hardcore gamers, and so that I'm just hating it because it's cool to hate it because it was popular. So those things that are really, really popular, there's going to be that suspicion.
    42:34
    People have really good legitimate reasons. Like, hate Pokemon Go because it eats 20% of your battery in 10 minutes. That's a good reason to hate it. That's a very valid reason to hate it. I hope Niantic actually puts a lot of effort into figuring out better setting options so that it doesn't just have to do low battery mode when it's upside down in your pocket while you're not moving.
    42:58
    It's just so popular, they really need to see if they can do some steps that will make it a little less demanding, make it use less data. There are a lot of things that would be helpful to make it a more efficient and enjoyable experience. But anyway, I think it's neat. I'm not very far. I'm only level nine. Yeah, I'm 14. and I think in addition to this other AR games are going to start coming and I think this could also be one of those interesting little tidbits that push forward how phones are built if they keep coming and they keep being popular not just this one game but if more of them come where battery life is going to start becoming a more and more important issue again And it used to be, you know, your battery would last three days. And now it's to the point where your phone does everything, and they're even making batteries smaller because they're trying to get the footprint of the phone smaller. So your battery, you have your phone off the charger, you know, while you go to work. And then once you're at work, you put it on the charger, and then you take it off the charger when you go home. And you might only get four or five hours without it being on a charger, depending upon how much you're using it. Yeah, it seems like a lot of the focus has been how quickly they can charge the phone battery now rather than trying to increase the duration of the charge. But obviously that's not going to jive well with things like – if things like this become hip, then they're going to want to give you – you've got to have longer duration out in the field. But it's doing good things for the portable charger market. Oh, yeah. They're definitely getting everything they could want. So what's the best team to join on Pokemon Go? Well, it's Team Instinct, of course. Yeah, you're right. There is only one right answer, folks. So if you didn't join Team Instinct, I expect you to just restart your game.
    44:49
    Because otherwise, you're just wasting time. Exactly. Okay, well, I think we've adequately covered the latest hip craze, Pokemon Go. So let's go to the next possibly latest hip craze, which is so hip because it's so retro. I've said hip like five times in this podcast. You've said hip a lot. I'm not going to say it anymore. Okay. Not for at least this episode. I'm going to move on. So let's talk about the Nintendo Classic Edition, a.k.a. the NES Mini.
    45:17
    So for those that didn't see, Nintendo has put out a new small version of what looks like the classic Nintendo Entertainment System console. It comes with 30 games, including Super Mario Bros. 1 through 3. It's got Metroid. It's got Donkey Kong, Final Fantasy, Legend of Zelda. It's got an assortment of really popular titles from that original console. It comes with an HDMI cable so you can hook it up to modern TVs, AC adapter, and it comes with one NES Classic controller.
    45:50
    The system cannot be updated. There's not going to be a way for you to put it online, download any additional games. It's really just to give you, for $60, these 30 hit classic titles as a nostalgia shot, like an espresso shot. So, Tony, what do you think of the NES Mini? I think you missed the most important of the 30 games, Bubble Bobble. Yes, right, I did miss it because I never remember playing Bubble Bobble. I played so much Bubble Bobble back in the day. I beat that game. I can't even have a guess of how many times I beat that game. Well, while I respect your critical opinion of what I left out, a true gamer would have said, Dennis, you left out Contra. Why didn't you say Contra? I thought that was Super C they have, which is Super Contra. They have both. Oh, it's both on it? That's right. It's Contra and Super Contra. The article I read didn't list Contra. I did find one that actually went through all 30 of the games. There's also the original Mario Brothers before they were Super. Yeah. is one of the games. Yeah, lots. We could go through all 30, but I think now that we've gotten to like 16, we've said people can look online if they really care.
    47:07
    My overall thoughts is from an access standpoint, as in access to these classic games, this isn't really offering anything new. There are a lot of homebrew Raspberry Pi projects that you can undertake that would give you access to 8-bit NES games, because 8-bit runs really well on Raspberry Pi. So emulation-wise, there's a lot of options that are already out there. Granted, a lot of times you can't just buy them because people don't have the rights to sell that sort of software, so it's sort of home-built for home use only sort of stuff. But this is a low price point. We're talking about this entire thing for the price of one modern game. Yeah, and the second controller, if you want to buy a second controller, is going to be $10 from what I've read. which, you know, in the way prices are on current controllers, $10 is cheap. So that's not going to be a big obstacle for folks. And this looks cool because it looks like a little – it's a little NES. You just want to hug it and, you know, feed it and put it in your Pokeball. I'm sorry. I went back to the wrong game.
    48:08
    So I would say overall I think this is a good choice for anyone that's looking at a simple plug-and-play solution, you know, because you've got to go through steps. If you still have your old NES console, I probably have mine somewhere. I know I have the Atari 2600 in the garage. But, you know, it's not HDMI or anything. So you've got to use adapters and do all these hookups to get it working on a modern TV. Or you have to use an old CRT. So I think this solves that because it's just plug and play for modern equipment. The game selection they went with is stellar. I can understand that there are going to be people that are missing games that they really wish had been included and that there should be a way to update it. you know if it does gangbusters i imagine i could see nintendo doing like a second iteration where they have another 30 games yeah just like a different color one and i can see them also if this takes off big i can see the super nest getting a project like this yeah and i think i would say they would lean more towards doing something like that than just uh rehashing more games on the original i think this is just they thought hey let's see you know this is sort of a cool idea let's do this i added it to my wish list uh it's not something i'm going to rush out and buy but i got a tv i could hook yeah i'm putting it on my list i as soon as i told my wife about it she just looked at me and she was like we need it i mean yes no it's awesome it looks awesome it fits in your hand it fits in your hand no the only thing i saw that it doesn't do and the fact that it doesn't have any expandability but i thought would have been cool was if the little lid flipped up and there was an SD card slot there so you could slide in SD cards for expandability.
    49:44
    That would be awesome. It doesn't have that, but that would be awesome. Or even if it flipped up so I could blow in it. Oh yeah, I saw something say it's not one of the sites I saw covering this. And it doesn't have that annoying thing where you had to blow the cartridge. Look, blowing the cartridge wasn't annoying. It was just a rite of passage. The annoying thing was if you had to blow it more than once. But if you only had to blow it once, that was not a problem. That was just part, that was like pushing the power button. You just, that's how you dealt with it, folks. Yeah, these youngins, they don't know. I think the only issue, the only real negative I have with this, which is kind of mean, I suppose, but, is it just shows that the Nintendo of the bygone era is more popular than today's Nintendo.
    50:30
    Seeing the excitement generated from all these games, and it so sad because look at all this IP that they control and you know they just it not Yeah there nothing out there Exactly They not delivering you know the disappointment that was the Star Fox release that we mentioned on one of the previous podcasts I mean, they've had good releases for the Wii U. I'd say Mario Maker, you know, and most of their Mario products are really good uses of the franchise. I think they respect their Mario franchise the most. But everything else, it's like waiting almost Final Fantasy durations. Not quite that bad. Let me not be too cruel. But, you know, really long waits between Zelda games. You know, it's all sorts of stuff where you just look and you're like, you've got all this great IP that could really be explored. It's not like people feel like you're being overly saturated like an Assassin's Creed every year was doing to folks. But anyway. But hey, if it makes them money, yay for them. and it scratches an itch that a lot of people really feel. When I think of video game, the NES console is always what pops into my mind first. It wasn't my first console, but it's always what I think of because it was so defining. I'm the same way. It wasn't my first console, but when I think of the console I had when I was a kid, the NES is the first one that I think of. Then I follow it up with the Super NES. Then I think, oh, yeah, I had an Intellivision back before all of that and played a lot of BurgerTime and Tanks. Yes, Tanks. I like Tanks. I had it for the 2600. I think it was called Combat. Yeah, it was Combat. I think that's what it was called. I mainly played BurgerTime. Like 90% of what I played was BurgerTime.
    52:10
    BurgerTime. We did not have BurgerTime. Well, we had a handheld version of BurgerTime. My sister did. I had Cuber and Donkey Kong and Pac-Man. Those little mini arcades. Oh, I remember those. Yeah, I got them in my garage. It's your arcade collection. Yay! Yes, it's almost as large as my pinball collection.
    52:33
    Also, one other thing is the way the connectors are set up, the NES controllers look like they'll plug into your Wii U, so if you want to have NES controls, because I know they've got the... You can get a lot of virtual or emulated NES games and stuff on the Wii U's and stuff, too. Oh, yeah, they have like a virtual console. Yeah, they've got a virtual console, so you could actually plug in and use the actual correct controllers with your virtual console from the sounds of it. Sweet. All right, well, with our NES nostalgia out of the way, let's go ahead and go to the third and final topic or category for our podcast, the tabletop section. We had an email from Jake Danzig. He wrote into the podcast, and he wanted to ask us about a tabletop game called Mars Attacks, the miniatures game. He noted that he isn't a big board gamer, but he is a huge fan of Mars Attacks. And so he decided to get this when he saw it show up on Kickstarter, and he wanted to know what our thoughts were. So I guess you, of course, are our resident tabletop expert. I did do some research on this because I've never played it. the box obviously to me evokes the comedy 1996 mars attacks movie which is what i always think of when i hear mars attacks in fact i didn't know i didn't know there was a historic thing i just thought there was i probably didn't do that right but i used to be able to do it a lot better and sometimes i will still kind of quack at people like that when they're just blathering but i think they kind of think that i'm crazy when i do it so i try not to do it say in a professional setting but you know sometimes it happens this is that's how life is uh but the artistic direction from what i could tell uh seems to have come from a 1962 tops trading card game called mars attacks uh so i'm not sure if the game is basing itself off the movie which in a way would be kind of odd because the movie was a bomb at the box office i thought i enjoyed it i thought it was a good movie i liked it i did too i did too i feel guilty but i did it's like pierce bronzer It's like, James Bond is in it. He's a scientist. What is his head on? Spoilers. His head comes off at one point. Oh, no.
    54:47
    And then, or this miniature is based off the card game itself. I guess in a way it doesn't really matter because the movie was based off the cards game. So it owes its existence to the original from the 60s one way or another. Basics that I can understand are it's a 3D board game that mechanically relies on having real or true line of sight. So you position your pieces. you look to see if they can actually target the opponent could actually visually see the opponent and depending on how good the view is that impacts the dice rolls and the ability to attack uh it seems to me that the game isn't uh the term uh you often have used tony is crunchy it doesn't seem overly crunchy seems like it has pretty simple dice mechanics but it is highly tactical given the nature of the line of sight uh you know we've got like little fences and stuff that you put up so things can obstruct view and all of that i haven't played it so this is just what i could gather uh trying to research and search the game on my end yeah uh it's not i haven't played it either and i sent some feelers out and i don't actually know anybody who has it so i didn't get a chance to play it but i watched a couple let's play uh and uh some other stuff on it and took a good look at everything i could find online and the models are really nice the uh wreckage and the walls and stuff and just the models and i've seen a lot of them where people have done an amazing job painting them up yeah no they did look really good i saw two review videos actually of it with people positioning the pieces and stuff and they were far more like i thought the soldiers would be more generic looking almost like the little bags of army men or something and and no it was uh i was impressed with with how it looked yeah no it is it it looks really nice It's one of those games that's got kind of a sweet spot between being a pure board game and being a pure miniatures game. And this game sets in that spot. And it's got a lot of potential there. And the scenario play looks really cool. And the manual looks amazing.
    56:51
    And all the art is amazing. I mean, this is a game that I wouldn't mind having just for the art and the pieces and stuff. But I wasn't able to find anybody who had it, so I couldn't actually give it a try. But it seems to be really well regarded all in all.
    57:12
    I say to Jake, definitely find somebody and give it a good play. She looks to be a nice game that's really simple. You don't get into the too heavy, crazy stuff that the full-up miniatures get, but you've got more options than your normal board games. It seems to be a good game. I've played several other games that kind of straddle that line that are a lot of fun.
    57:36
    Most of them are older or homebrew-type stuff, but I always have a pretty high recommendation for them. Now, the Mars Attacks thing, like I said earlier, I love the movie, and uh jake also mentioned a couple other mars attacks things that have come out lately yeah i was i wasn't familiar with them myself yeah well there are there's a couple dice games and stuff that have come out from steve jackson games and uh i know you might not be familiar with steve jackson games but you've played some of their dice games in the past uh because uh steve jackson games is the ones who put out zombie dice okay and they also put out uh munchkin and GURPS, and they've got a huge product line, and I've not played a Steve Jackson game that wasn't fun. They've all been enjoyable. Even ones that aren't really my cup of tea, they were fun to play. They might not be something I would own, but they always do a very good job about making a game fun. A lot of their games are very like Munchkin is very a sit around with your friends and drink beer and play type game. there needs to be a better name for that type of game maybe there is, but it's a beer and pretzels game it's a pretzels game and I'd recommend them, I mean, like I said I haven't played their Mars Attacks games either but I've played a lot of other Steve Jackson games and I would trust them for anything they get license-wise to work with and some of the things that they don't have the licenses on to work with I mean, Steve Jackson Games is who's put out the classic Ogre game, which is a full-on miniatures game that is basically the old Bolo sci-fi series with the serial numbers filed off.
    59:28
    And, I mean, GURPS is one of the classic RPGs of the old school. you can literally do anything rpgs where there are dice rolls for everything and there are splat books if you want a splat book for something there is a splat book for it you can run gerps medieval you can run gerps as time travelers you can run gerps steampunk you can run gerps sci-fi you can run gerps modern day there are splat books for everything gerps is a do anything system Yeah, I've heard of GURPS because it's so flexible. Yeah, and that's what a lot of people, they use GURPS when they're doing homebrew and one-off games that are something weird. They use GURPS because it's just how flexible it is. Back to the original, the Mars Attacks the Miniatures game. It does, from what I've seen, it came out in 2014. and there doesn't seem to have been a whole lot of support for it by the company that put it out, which was Mantis Games. It's still on their website and you can still buy it, but it doesn't seem like there's been a whole lot of support for it. But it is definitely a game that,
    60:43
    especially for people who are not big board gamers and have no miniature experience, it seems like a good game to shift you into it because of how easy the rules are while still having the kind of tactical playability that a full-on miniatures game does. It kind of scratches that itch, and then eventually you get to the point where you're addicted, and then suddenly you're doing your own homebrew system based on making the rules deeper, or you end up finding yourself sitting rocking behind a game shop somewhere with stacks of boxes for a miniatures game around you going, I forgot the paint.
    61:31
    Well, yes. So awesome times can be had is the moral of the story. Yes, that is. Yes. So, Jake, thank you very much for the question. Let's go ahead and move into our last part on tabletop, which is Can't Come is coming up. And Tony and I have discussed this briefly before, but the sign-ups are in, the registrations are set, and we are ready to go. I am signed up to only attend during Saturday, and I'm going to be playing two games along with Tony. We're going to do The League of Extraordinary Heroes and Dark Tide on that day. And that's going to take up most of the day unless we want to go late in the evening and take a third game. Yeah, they're both four-hour games, and we've got a one-hour break between them so we can get some lunch. Yeah, we might get hungry. Extraordinary Heroes is a 1939 setting. It kind of reminds me of the, hopefully better than the movie, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but it seemed like you were playing along with historic characters of the era. Yeah.
    62:34
    And Dark Tide is kind of a superhero game, and it's going to be, it uses the Ultimate Hero System. Yeah, and I guess that's going to be like a play test. So we're going to help playtest that. Yeah.
    62:47
    I'm attending on Friday as well. And I'm signed up for two games then. I'm doing a D&D 5e game using a pre-gen character. So we'll see how that turns out. I'm more interested in just getting to play some D&D 5e because I haven't touched 5e at all. I mean, I haven't really done D&D since 3. And I'm also signed up for a Planet Mercenary game because they're running a Planet Mercenary demo, which is, of course, the Schlock Mercenary RPG that I kick-started last year and is on its way towards completion. Yeah. So I'm going to be doing that on Friday as well, and I might be adding some other stuff. We're just going to have to see how the day goes. And if you don't remember, CanCon is a gaming convention in Kansas City. It's actually in Overland Park, and it's at the Sheridan. there's a convention center there and it's just they're attached, the Sheridan and the convention center are physically attached to each other yeah and it's a mix of board games and RPGs there are a lot of board games and there's a lot of board gaming that takes place we just not signed up for any of that because as I've said in past ones this is where I get my RPG fix because I don't really play a lot during the year yeah there are a lot of us who when we get together a group of us have regular game nights and on a number of those we will break out a board game or like a dice game like the zombies dice that's where I played it was at one of those sort of things but we don't get to do RPGs because most of the most of our friends don't do RPGs so this it's a little too much for I've tried to organize RPG games in the past and it's fallen flat and I'm working on getting some more organized but it's you know a lot of stuff going on in life it's hard to get everything pulled together yeah tony and i did discuss doing one of the one of the slots on saturday as a dnd 5e uh we decided that or in my case i was like since i had some exposure to dnd as of at least version 3 that i wanted to do just totally new stuff for exposure reasons so that's kind of why i got carved up that way because i think we've mentioned dnd a few times in the past so if anyone was wondering well why isn't dennis doing dnds so I can be exposed to new things. I'm trying to grow as a person. Well, and these games sound a lot of fun. I mean, the League of Extraordinary Heroes is, I mean, that's like 1939 version of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. I mean, and if you're throwing 39 in, you're talking, you know, like Indiana Jones and the Diesel Punky type stuff and all that kind of adventurer type lines. I think it's a great setting for an RPG. I do too. And then a superhero RPGs are, I mean, who doesn't want to be a superhero? Yeah, which of you don't? Don't write us. We don't really want to know. It's rhetorical.
    65:47
    Well, that covers the show. So if you guys want us to continue to be your superheroes in podcasting, please go and give us a rating and review on iTunes or Stitcher. We always appreciate that. helps us with their search algorithms so other people can find the podcasts that are interested in these sort of topics. If you want to contact us like Jake did, you can always email the show at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com, or you can send us a message or leave a comment on our Facebook page, which would be facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. We're also on Twitter at eclectic underscore gamers, and we're on Instagram at eclectic underscore gamers, and I've actually been doing a pretty good job, especially with the Instagram, of getting stuff posted up on the Instagram. Twitter, I'm still, I'm posting more, but not a whole lot, but I'm doing pretty good with the Instagram. I don't know why, but for some reason, the ability just to take a picture or a short video and throw it up is working better for me than the other stuff. Yeah, and we tend to have content coming out related to either pinball, video games, or tabletop on the Facebook page as well. So it's a good place to actually follow game news. Sometimes we'll even list things where we won't necessarily cover in a particular episode. Most of the stuff does relate because we're so broad-based in our topics that usually we've at least mentioned something in passing. But we try and keep up with the news as best we can. We plan to be back in a couple of weeks. Obviously, a big part of that is going to be a debrief on CantCon. But my guess will be we'll probably have content in the other two topics as well. We'll just have to see what we come out of the convention with. Yep, and until then, have fun.