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Ep 165: Dune Pinball with David Van Es and Brian Savage | Barrels of Fun!

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·55m 23s·analyzed·Apr 16, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Barrels of Fun details Dune Pinball design philosophy, Legendary licensing deal, and mechanical innovations.

Summary

David Van Ness and Brian Savage from Barrels of Fun discuss their second game, Dune Pinball, revealing their design philosophy rooted in film/TV production methodology. They explain how they secured the Dune license from Legendary Entertainment before Dune Part Two was even filmed, their iterative 'blue sky' design process, and specific mechanical innovations including the signature pain box one-handed recovery mechanic and the Shai-Hulud sandworm toy that consumes and regurgitates the ball. The conversation emphasizes their focus on storytelling 'under glass,' licensing complexity, and how community feedback shaped design evolution from Labyrinth to Dune.

Key Claims

  • Barrels of Fun signed the Dune license from Legendary Entertainment before Dune Part Two was even being shot, and before the Dune TV show existed

    high confidence · David and Brian explicitly state they worked with Legendary before Part Two was filmed and the TV show didn't even exist; they pitched Legendary on their design aesthetic demonstrated by Labyrinth

  • The sandworm (William) toy initially estimated to cost $500-$600 alone was engineered down to a viable cost through prototyping and innovation

    high confidence · Brian and David describe the mechanical engineers (Travis Moseman and Paul Sulse) presenting the cost estimate and David's insistence on building a prototype first to find cost-reduction solutions

  • The pain box mechanic requires one-handed play on a single left ramp shot, and draining results in immediate loss

    high confidence · Detailed explanation of the pain box implementation as a physical 3D sculpt that pops from the apron, with ball lock mechanism and one-handed gameplay constraint

  • Barrels of Fun uses a consistent 'blue sky' design process: team members independently list 10 things they remember from an IP without re-watching, then compare results to identify common themes

    high confidence · David explains the methodology: typically 4-7 items match across team members, which becomes the foundation for development before pitching to licensor

  • Every licensing deal involves multiple third-party rights holders, and older licenses are increasingly difficult due to estates, music rights, and actor approval requirements

    high confidence · Extended discussion by both hosts about licensing complexity; Brian notes that even older IPs now require entirely new contracts and multiple rights clearances

  • The dual-monitor back panel design (Labyrinth innovation carried to Dune) allows interactive visual elements like spice flow and soldiers falling between screens

    high confidence · Brian explains the monitor-between-monitors concept started as a cost/versatility alternative to physical mechanisms but evolved into a core interactive design feature

  • Labyrinth machines have universally positive owner retention with no reports of dissatisfaction or resale

Notable Quotes

  • “We worked with Legendary Entertainment. Basically, part two was not even being shot yet. When you go to get a license, you're probably a minimum of two years out from when the machine would be delivered.”

    Brian Savage, Barrels of Fun @ early discussion — Explains the forward-planning required for major IP licensing and strategic timing of Dune acquisition

  • “This is not just about pinball. It's the relationships. When a new release game would come out, we would call up our friends. It's the people and the friendships that you're forming around this, which is very unique. It's almost like the pinball machine has become kind of the modern water fountain.”

    Josh Roop or Scott Larson, LoserKid co-hosts @ mid-discussion — Articulates the community/social fabric of pinball culture beyond gameplay mechanics

  • “The whole purpose of the machine is to entertain the customer and to tell the story for the IP that you're demonstrating in the machine. We're putting on a show and there's compromises that need to be made. But can we make the suspension of disbelief happen enough within those four minutes?”

    Brian Savage @ design philosophy section — Core statement of Barrels of Fun's storytelling-first design philosophy

  • “Two people independently of each other said something to me... they came in here weren't that excited about doing Dune and it's like I don't know what it is but this feels like a cinematic pinball machine. It's about like our blood pressure is going up when we're battling the harvester like it's intense.”

    David Van Ness @ player reaction section — Evidence of emotional engagement and cinematic design success as perceived by independent playtesters

  • “If we build the prototype, I don't care what the prototype costs, but if we have the physical part then we can maybe figure out how we can shrink it down or simplify it. So the mech doesn't cost 500 and we found a way to make it work.”

    David Van Ness @ sandworm cost discussion — Illustrates willingness to prototype expensive features first, cost-reduce later — contrasts with typical manufacturing constraints-first approach

  • “The pain box is a test of you put your hand in there, it's excruciating pain, and if you can survive it, you get to continue on with your life. If you don't, you die. Well, we can't ask people to put their hand in a pinball machine. So what can we do?”

Entities

Barrels of FuncompanyDavid Van NesspersonBrian SavagepersonDune PinballgameLabyrinthgameLegendary EntertainmentcompanyJosh Roopperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: IP licensing increasingly complex with multiple third-party rights holders; even older IPs require entirely new contracts and actor approval chains

    high · Extended discussion by both hosts on estate/music rights/actor approval; Brian: 'There's no one single license... you have main license and then you have third parties'

  • ?

    community_signal: Labyrinth machines showing universal positive owner retention and continued satisfaction; no resale pressure reported

    medium · David anecdotal: 'I haven't met a person yet that's just hated their Labyrinth and said you know what i just need to get rid of this thing'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pain box mechanic received mixed playtester reactions; some found it frustrating/gimmicky while others enjoyed it, indicating potential divisive appeal

    medium · David: 'The audience the media people we had here today they were very mixed on it some people were just like that's just stupid and then the other people that just absolutely had fun with it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barrels of Fun employs blue-sky ideation without cost constraints, then engineers solutions downward; contrasts with traditional manufacturing cost-first approach

    high · David on sandworm: 'I don't care what the prototype costs, but if we have the physical part then we can maybe figure out how we can shrink it down or simplify it'

  • $

    market_signal: 'Cinematic pinball' as emerging design philosophy; independent playtesters used this term to describe Dune's immersive, emotionally engaging experience

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.166

0:00
it's been a crazy day we're on episode 165 thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop with me my co-captain scott larson and scott another game revealed another game it's a log jam it's a trough jam but absolutely this is great uh it's actually embarrassing to have so many great titles to look after and to order. So if you're going to do it, contact Zach and Nicole at flipping out pinball. They are great. And we did talk to Zach today and he said his, he's been sitting at his desk and filling all these orders. So a lot of these things are flooding in. And the great thing about it is there are a lot of great options right now. So go ahead and contact Zach and Nicole flipping out pinball and we let's get to it. Let's let's talk about the pinball machine for the day too. And so we are with barrels of fun, barrels of fun. Josh, go ahead and take it away. So if you are looking for a do and do hit up flipping out, they do sell barrels of fun. I met this company October 2023 at Pinball Expo. I remember them just revealing this game and I'm like, what the heck is this? It's another pinball company. And I'm like, I better go check this out. And so I stand in line and I get my hands on this game. And the first thing I can tell it is different. It is unique.
1:28
It's like the other product in the fact that it feels familiar, but it's doing new stuff, and it felt quality between my hands. And the whole weekend I'm there, I never saw Playfield go up once. So I know that they were doing something right, and I think they've shocked and awed the community with their product, and now they've come out with their second game, Dune. And I'm just so excited to experience this with you guys. Thank you, David Van Ness and Brian Savage for coming on and joining us on this episode. Thanks for having us. Pleasure to be here. So how the heck you're like, OK, we did Labyrinth. What should we do next? Let's go as epic as we can. We're going with like the biggest franchise right now, like Dune. How did that conversation come about? Well, again, like we want to make sure we're making something very different to what we've done in the past. something that we like to do is challenge ourselves and again we do talk amongst ourselves as a team about what licenses we're excited about i work with licenses all the time you find out what they want to do or what's going to be available over the next five years and we just kind of figure out what do we where do we think the market's going to be i mean you're talking about a two to three year bet on what we think is going to be good or not down the road. I mean, we worked with Legendary Entertainment. Basically, part two was not even being shot. Yeah. When you go to get a license, you're probably a minimum of two years out from when the machine would be delivered. And so we were able to go to them and before we even had Labyrinth. And basically because David's background in film and the design aesthetic that we have with doing what the IP needs, not look at a layout and stick the IP on it, but they looked at our deck and the presentation and said, wow, we really think that you guys can represent our billion-dollar brand as well or better than anybody else out there. And so we got signed by them. So there wasn't even a Dune II. There certainly wasn't a TV show. Nope. But, you know, along the way, and now there's going to be a Doom 3. So this is a franchise that has been in the minds of science fiction people for a long time. Written in the 60s. You know, and we know that other major science fiction things were kind of ripped off from this story. Oh, it's fired. I'm sorry, not ripped off. Creatively borrowed. Yeah, creative. So, look, this really is what, you know, it's kind of the Lord of the Rings for science fiction nerds. And what a better way to try and tell a story under glass is to go with that. And again, when everyone, I mean, I have distributors today, like, oh, we thought it was going to be, you know, the older film. And it's just like, why would we want to do that? Like, we want to get the biggest and baddest world that has such a wide audience as we possibly can. But at the same time, like, when we move on from there, well, we're not moving on. We're already developing the next titles is we don't want you guys to think, oh, well, they're just going to do, you know, this type of product. It's going to be something even more radically different than that. We don't want to be pigeonholed in doing one certain type of thing. But this is a very modern, very relevant title today. You know, whereas a lot of things people talk about are things they remember from their childhood or their teens in the 80s or 90s or whatever. I'm a little older than that. But we want to do something that was modern and very relevant to the media today. And so this was the perfect thing. So I have two questions. One. So the the new Dune movie, the first one had already come out. Correct. When you started looking at this. OK, so that's correct. But second, when you're dealing with new licenses, it is a lot more challenging than dealing with older licenses. And that's one reason why you see some other manufacturers trending to go toward like an older IP or something that has less restrictions on what they can do. So tell me about this because this is obviously a huge project that's going to have a lot of tentacles going in. They are licensing is getting much more difficult just in general.

medium confidence · David states 'I haven't met a person yet that's just hated their Labyrinth and said you know what i just need to get rid of this thing' — anecdotal claim without systematic data

  • Barrels of Fun design process mirrors film production: blue sky (unlimited ideas), script/pitch phase, funding/constraints phase, production, post-production (code/polish)

    high confidence · David extensively explains the parallel to film production workflow and how it shapes their iterative design refinement

    • David Van Ness @ pain box explanation — Shows creative translation of Dune thematic elements into physical pinball mechanics

  • “It needs to interact with the player. And to interact with the player, it should be down where the player can see it. And so that's where it started from was the whole idea of, well, what if they're jumping up and down and poking stuff between the two monitors? Wouldn't that be kind of cool? Nobody's ever done that.”

    Brian Savage @ back panel monitor discussion — Explains the dual-monitor innovation as both cost reduction and novel interactive design principle

  • “We want to make sure we're making something very different to what we've done in the past. You find out what they want to do or what's going to be available over the next five years and we just figure out where do we think the market's going to be. It's a two to three year bet on what we think is going to be good.”

    David Van Ness or Brian Savage @ game selection discussion — Articulates long-term IP selection strategy and market prediction approach

  • “I know we're going to do really short stories into long epic sagas. But I mean, we just love what we do and it's just like when I can get people to emotionally react to a game like we're doing our job here.”

    David Van Ness @ emotional response section — Summarizes design goal: emotional investment through storytelling compression

  • “This is a very modern, very relevant title today. Whereas a lot of things people talk about are things they remember from their childhood or their teens in the 80s or 90s. We want to do something that was modern and very relevant to the media today.”

    David Van Ness or Brian Savage @ IP selection rationale — Positions Barrels of Fun strategy as differentiating through contemporary IP versus nostalgia-driven competitors

    • Scott Larson
    person
    Travis Mosemanperson
    Paul Sulseperson
    Shai-Hulud (William)product
    Pain Boxproduct
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Zach Minneyperson
    Dune Part Twoproduct
    LoserKid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Philperson
    Harvesterproduct

    medium · David reports two independent playtesters called it 'cinematic' with elevated emotional responses ('our blood pressure is going up')

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Legendary Entertainment actively expanded asset permissions beyond original license scope in response to Barrels of Fun's proposed game modes, demonstrating proactive licensor partnership

    high · David: 'They went and got permission from the people that needed to be in that mode' because Legendary saw the value in the modes being designed

  • $

    market_signal: Barrels of Fun pursuing limited production model with strategic FOMO marketing; two-year IP licensing planning window indicates long product development cycles

    medium · Discussion of minimum 2-3 year timeline between license acquisition and machine delivery

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Barrels of Fun employs specialized mechanical engineers (Travis Moseman, Paul Sulse) with deep expertise in toy molding/durability; David provides creative direction from film/TV background

    high · Role delineation clear: David leads design vision, Brian handles molding/cost/production, Travis and Paul execute mechanical engineering

  • ?

    product_strategy: Barrels of Fun deliberately positions their games around contemporary IP (modern Dune vs. 1984 version) and story-centric design as differentiation from competitors relying on nostalgia licensing

    high · David explicitly states: 'We want to do something that was modern and very relevant to the media today' versus older nostalgia-driven franchises

  • ?

    product_strategy: Dual-monitor back panel design originated as cost/versatility alternative but became signature interactive feature with visual storytelling (spice flow, soldiers falling between screens)

    high · Brian explains monitor-between-monitors innovation evolved from cost calculation to core design principle

    • 5:56
    Even the older stuff like it used to be, you could get the older stuff, but that's not the case anymore because every license comes with additional third party licenses. So no matter if you go back to you, you're going to right now, you will end up dealing with an estate of some sort. The music rights will be in a different spot. It's one of those things like there's nothing. There's nothing easy about licensing. And they may have, for the older stuff, there may be some of the actors that were in the license and a lot of the other actors were not. And so you could have whole lots of hands holding their hand out wanting to be paid for a particular film or movie or TV show or whatever that may or may not have really been that popular. Well, and also a lot of those licenses have nothing to do with legendary entertainment at all. But a lot of these old IPs don't even have contracts that are valid anymore. So a lot of times they have to write brand new contracts for them because you want X, Y, and Z with it. So I wish there was a silver bullet for like, yeah, if you just stick with this, that's how easy it's going to be. But, I mean, every license I dealt with, there's no one single license. You have main license and then you have third parties that come out of all works. Because, like, when you're doing a licensing deal, you are doing multiples, period.
    7:20
    Now, with the Legendary, they've been a fantastic partner with us because they have – we have access to both films. We have access to pretty much anything we want to pull into it. But they have even gone out and got extra stuff for us that, at first, we didn't think we were going to be able to use because they saw the modes that were in the machine. And they said, oh, this has to be in there. And so they went and got permission from the people that needed to be in that mode. well and there is a ton of people in this cast like timothy chalamet zendaya oscar isaac rebecca ferguson jason momoa stellan scars guard yeah it just it's insane that like and it's funny so so what you're telling me is like you originally were kind of you didn't have as many assets and then like it's because of what you were showing to the licensor you're like They're like, no, no, we need to make this right. We need to make this even better. They have been absolutely fantastic. I mean, everything has its situation that you've got to work with. Any type of creative outlet that you're doing, you've got to deal with the situation, what the moment is.
    8:30
    But they, again, they're a brand about fandom. And when they see what we're doing here, because we are stewards of their IP, We're trying to make sure we represent them correctly, and we want to make sure the fans love this. What we're trying to do is make sure this is fan appropriate, but we also want to get them into pinball. And if we can make this pinball appropriate, then we get that cross-section of growing the hobby, the industry that we love, with really more passionate people. Yeah, because what you want is every new IP that comes into the pinball industry to bring more people in, because then there's more customers for everybody. But when you have stuff that's remaking older machines, it's just still meaning it's the same people in the hobby. You're not growing the hobby at all. But that's what's important with a franchise that's as big as this is. But again, like we all got into pinball. It wasn't just like we love pinball. All of us can agree that we love pinball, but it's not just pinball. It's the relationships. Like you and me, we know the pinball. When a new release game would come out, we would call up our friends. even if we didn't like it, we'd always want to analyze it and talk together. And when you go to tournaments, it's not just about the competitive side of it. It's sitting back having drinks with the other competitors. Like, pinball is so unique with its community. It's not just about the game. It's the people and the friendships that you're forming around this, which is very unique. It's almost like the pinball machine has become kind of the modern water fountain where everybody will come around and talk about, we love this IP. Do you remember when this happened? You know, and like a lot of shows nowadays, you don't even have that experience anymore. And I feel like when you go to a tournament and you see a game that is X, like Labyrinth, I haven't thought about that movie forever. And then you go over and then you see little moments like, oh, wow, I remember that. Oh, it does this and it does that. And it takes you right back to that childhood. But with the collector people, It's really that these devices are an excuse for us to all go somewhere and spend the weekend together and have the camaraderie together. Because at the end of the day, it's all about the people that are involved in the hobby. It's not about the machines because without the people, it's really not much fun.
    10:47
    So lead me through the Dune is a – okay, I know that the movie from the 80s was so complex that a lot of people didn't even understand it. OK, and they they even funny story. They even printed out like a sheet of paper to hand people as they were going to the movie to explain what they were watching because it was so confusing. Now, I know they've done a much better job with the latest movies, but how do you distill that down into a pinball machine? So take me into your thoughts on to what was going to make it make the cut for the pinball machine versus what was not easily integrated into a pinball machine. I mean, what it really comes down to, again, is what was the the communion experience of watching the film together? Like what was the experiences that you guys or Brian, what did you guys take away from watching this film? and if we can find and if we do this this is part of our blue sky when we're talking about any ip from music bands to original ideas to movies and tv shows is write down everyone go away write down 10 things that you remember from it i don't want you to re-watch it listen to it i don't want you to deep dive and do research i want you to go away and just write down 10 things that automatically come to your head that when you think of X and then what happens is we'll let that go away for a couple of days and then we'll come back next week and you'll find out of those 10 things between four and seven of those things will be identical between everyone and that's honestly where we start the development that's because if it's something that's stuck with all those people then there's a good chance to stick stuck with the majority of the fandom and that's where you just build on top of that and then obviously we go for you know we we pitch it to the licensor and again this is not just pointing out legendary this is just how we approach the whole thing the whole thing period and then we just build on top of that so it really is the process i know it kind of like you were asking very specific about this ip but it's not just this ip it's just how we approach pinball in general but for something like this the next step is after we have what the common thought, theme, desires, remembrance for the machines or what we're trying to create. Then we come up with a list of 10 to 20 different moments. What are the moments that would translate into a pinball machine? And then you start thinking about, or at least I do, because I'm the crazy guy. Can we do this? No. Can we do that? No. Okay, whatever. But then we come up with different mechanisms that may work for all these moments. and then you start looking at that and you go, all right, this one, this one, this one, this one, and we'll see what we can do about that one. And then you start the design process the layout Well now if I have these things I want to put in there now they have to physically fit in the machine and work together So you have the experiences then the mechanisms to make the pinball moments then the design of the actual table.
    14:01
    And then there's just stupid ideas like the paint box. So if you're familiar with the universe, there's a paint box that Paul has to put his hand in. Well, there's multiple people, but it's a test of you put your hand in there, it's a scruciating pain, and if you can survive it, you get to continue on with your life. If you don't, you die. So it was like, well, why don't we, you know, you've got to put your hand in something. Well, we can't ask people to put their hand in a pinball machine. So what can we do? And I'm not a huge fan of action buttons, but it was one of those things of, well, and this is kind of more Brian, it's like, well, why don't we make them have to put their hand on the action button and they have to play the game with one hand. And if you don't make the shot, because it's literally one shot on the playfield, which is the left ramp, if you don't make that shot or drain out, you're dead. You die. And that's it. Which is brilliant. It's brilliant. I saw that in the trailer and that is awesome.
    15:01
    I'll just rest my belly on the button and just use it. Guess what? Try it. Try it. You guess what's going to happen? Touch both flippers at the same time and you die oh one flipper at a time but the whole then what was interesting is it is a lot of fun um but the audience the media people we had here today they were very mixed on it some people were just like that's just stupid and then the other people that just absolutely had fun with it so and then it's a balancing thing because where that is like to be you know we could have just done something on the lcd and that was it but no we had to go and put a physical 3d you know physical sculpt of the paint that pops out of the apron where the ball goes underneath it and locks away and that's where the ball will be held and you'll go through your trial and if you fail then it'll just come out and drain out through the in lane through the out lane um but that's not just the only place you have it we also have a place where uh you've got to hit the snorkel it's the snorkel ball save. So it's like Radical. So the ball will get caught on the ramp with a pin. It will flick it back up the wire form, down another wire form into where the paint box is. And it will sit there until, if you accidentally start draining out the left out lane, it will shoot the other ball out, kick that one back in, and then drain the other one out. So you can keep on playing.
    16:26
    Some of the stuff in here is pretty unique and awesome too, just looking at this play field. I gotta ask though, Did you guys ever design pinball before this? Because when I played Labyrinth, I just thought, man, this feels like a seasoned pinball person has made this play field. And looking at Dune, it looks just as good, if not better, than what you guys did with Labyrinth. Well, I know I made apparently the worst outlaying design in history. No, no. The most brutal. The most brutal, to use the word. Look, the way I approach this and I approach it, I mean, I led the design on this, but Travis Moseman is the mechanical engineer behind it, and Paul Sulse is also the mechanical engineer behind William. But again, it is really... William is the worm's name. And does anyone know... Okay, trivia moment. Why is it called William?
    17:22
    Labyrinth nerds, come on. Billy was taken? No, so the worm in Labyrinth, his actual real name is William. so that's why we called him William so if anyone asks why are you talking about William they would think it's a reference to Labyrinth so going back to the design it really is a kind of a group effort but at the end of the day I want to make sure we're telling the story under that glass and maybe that comes from my experience helping in film and TV but again it's like we want to hire the best people in their fields to help make the best world under glass that's really how we approach it and does it feel good when you shoot it you know it doesn't create moments but something was really interesting today and two people independently of each other may have talked before they said something to me and they came in here weren't that excited about doing and it's like i don't know what it is but this feels like a cinematic pinball machine and i'm like what do you mean cinematic but it's about like our blood pressure is going up when we're battling the harvester like it's intense um so it's again i know we'll tell really short stories into long epic sagas um but i mean we just love what we do and it's just like when i can get people to emotionally react to a game like we're doing our job here like it's coming in every day seeing all these people put all this work into this one game it is the most rewarding thing i've ever done in my life and it's definitely showing it bleeds through the product into the home as well like i haven't met a person yet that's just hated their labyrinth and said you know what i just need to get rid of this thing everyone that gets a labyrinth has loved it and i think you guys have created an excitement because you're excited about pinball right like it just the product is doing so well we first off i gotta ask i know like sandworm it's kind of a big central thing but to create a sandworm that not only captures the ball you're like okay cool you're like cool and all of a sudden it starts eating the ball and you're like oh wow what the heck is this and then it starts raising up out of the play field a full other just who okay who's an evil genius was that and it's a bash and it's a bash toy Whose evil genius was that? I've got to know this. Look, it's the mechanical engineers that made it happen. Like, I could draw the most, like, we all can draw. I can't draw. We could all come up with the most ridiculous things. I mean, even at the point at the start of this project, when I said, this is what it needs. Like, again, it'd be a little drawing. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. I mean, you know, there's all these things we're going to do with the LCD or whatever. And then it's like, okay, guys, this is what, like, we want to do. And then, like, Travis and Paul will go away. All right, yeah, we can do that. and it was literally a week after the comeback like david this is going to cost probably five to six hundred dollars just this toy alone like that's like why do this and i'm like well first of all we haven't built it yet so how do we know actually cost that well but i'm just we're looking at it with we're putting into solidworks and solidworks as a way to you know calculate what it potentially is going to cost and i'm like yeah but like it'd be really cool if we did it you know but they were just like and you know i mean they're doing their job like but david this is like 500 like that's not that's not really viable for a game it's like well but if we build the prototype like i don't care what the prototype costs but if we have the physical part then we can then maybe we can figure out how we can shrink it down or how we can simplify how can we turn that in and you know the mech doesn't cost 500 and we found a way to make it work um so it's just like wouldn't it be nice again it goes back to our blue sky concept like when you are coming up with something i don't want you to have the limitations of price i want you to come up with something really really cool put it on the wall put it just put it somewhere it may it may not be ready for this game it may be game four three two i mean i can already tell you there's a mech that you know we have that was designed for another game that's going to a completely different game because someone else saw that design or idea took it and then basically re not re-engineered but just added more to it and changed it a little bit more so like i really try to allow people to have the freedom to think outside the box and then obviously when we get into the real business side of it brian's like okay this is this is where we're pushing this down into you know but like again like film production it's what's great about that you have when you start writing a script you're well to hoist it you've got unlimited budget everything else and then all of a sudden it's a really good idea and then you take it to someone this is really good this we make a great film but we have to raise the money all right well we start cutting scenes we start cutting this but this is the essence of what's going to be great and then like you finally get the money for it and you go into product and you go into pre-production it's like well now we're going to cut some more but what's the call you keep whittling down until you get it down to okay now we're ready to take it to shoot and then you go into production which is kind of development for us and it's like the world's on fire you go to shoot it and it's not just about we've got to shoot this film on script but now we're dealing with the day-to-day basis of making it in reality so then you're just fighting the different you know um prototypes and vendors and you're trying to make sure you keep that vision all in line into that final product and then you get into the post-production side of it when it's almost ready to go and then you get to take this big idea that you had you had to not compromise you had to make it worth within the constraints of creating this story this narrative that you want to do this product you're willing it down willing down to where it's viable and then you get what the the essence of what this product is and then in post we get to retell that story with code and editing and mixing that and making it more important more fleshed out what their original concept is and that's kind of how you come up with the final product that goes out to the customer. I'd like to bring it back to the worm. There was a conversation early on that we had because, you know, as a pinball player, I want the worm to eat the ball. But wait a minute, isn't being eaten by the worm bad or is it good? Unless you're getting rid of the soldiers. Unless you're getting rid of the soldiers? Is it a soldier that's being eaten?
    23:59
    Who's being eaten here, you know, from the storytelling standpoint? And then we also knew that it was important for you to be able to ride the worm because that is a big part of the film. And then you so you look at those components of it, but then you go back to the mechanical end of it. So not only does that have a mechanism, but there's also a mold, a molding of a toy that has to be created. That's going to, A, fit on there and B, be durable enough and C, look like a worm. Okay. So those are more constraints you work with of all the pieces, you know, in these games. This is not just a molded item that goes on a sling. Okay. That just sits there and looks pretty. This is actually toys that you're putting in a machine that do something. The harvester in this machine, you know, blows up and the front panel flops back and the explosion happens on the screen to give the player there's a moment. Because how many times do you see something blow up? You know, in a pinball machine, well, you don't want to see it blow up in a pinball machine, right? Am I right? Okay. So, but that was kind of a very step-by-step-by-step engineering situation because we needed to do this, but we only got this much space. So how are we going to drive that and what action should it really have or not have? And where do you put the levers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You could go on all day about this stuff. But there are many, many minutiae decisions that had to be made. But keeping in mind the whole time, the whole purpose of the machine is to entertain the customer and to tell the story for the IP that you're demonstrating in the machine. We're putting on a show and there's compromises that need to be made. But can we make the suspension of disbelief happen enough within those four minutes that we have someone playing the game? Because this isn't a world under glass. This is a planet under glass.
    25:55
    And it really is. It's insane to see how much you guys have put in this. I mean, you talk about the worm, but then, like you said, you have the harvester. You have the paint box. You've got the mask in the back. You've got that cool ball lock with the spinner. Does that lead to somewhere behind the spinner, or does that just kind of come back at you? So we can show you later on. But essentially, like with Labyrinth, we put in the drop target and the spinner behind it. And that was a very, very fun thing to do. And, I mean, even in Labyrinth, when we had Phil come in, like he was playing the game in there, he goes, man, you're just like, this game is really good, but it's really missing a spinner. I'm like, I mean, we were literally probably two months out from production. And I was like, I just reached over to the shelf of prototype parts and I put out the spinners. Like, well, put it where you want it. And he goes, what do you mean? Like, this is locked. I'm like, but if you're telling me the only thing missing to make this game amazing is a spinner, where do you want to put it? and we literally would just screw it into the playfield in one spot, shoot it, that's not good. And then it literally ended up exactly where it is in the game, and it went with the game. So we knew that was a very fun mechanic. And coming into the Dune universe, the cinematic universe, it was like there's a lot of, you know, there's big battles, but there's also intense personal fights. So it's like, well, if we could trap a ball behind the fork, there was always a very good satisfaction of bashing and hitting a spinner, and you can create hit points on that. We can have the shield going off around it. That would be awesome. But it's like, but how do we level that up? Well, we need to put a magnet in between. Magnet. So, like, so now that just explodes out to now when you hit it, the ball is going to go up hit the spinner and then come back and get flung into the slings on either side So now you get that whole moment in the film when they fighting the shield and it's going, ziz, ziz, ziz. Now we've got the action, that moment of satisfaction of that you feel like you're actually in a battle or training with Gurney and stuff like that. So there's just an evolution of what did we think was fun? What was the reaction from our family that have flabberants? How are they giving us feedback, what they enjoyed, and how can we absolutely intensify that? Because this is all about experiences. And how can we get this experience across to the people buying the game? Or are you just playing the game and they're okay?
    28:23
    I do have to ask. I've noticed this about Barrel Fun Games that I haven't noticed with any other company. The back panel in the very back. I was just about to talk about that. Yeah.
    28:35
    What made you guys decide to do that? And it's so eye-catching, and, like, it just makes sense. I'll take it. You take it. Okay, so when we were first doing Labyrinth, one of the things that David really wanted was the nippers running around with their sticks or whatever they do, jump up and down and sticking them up in the air, soldiers sticking stuff up in the air going, hey! It's like, well, we need a mechanism in the back of the box. And I looked at that and looked at that from a molding and a toy standpoint because that's my background. And I kept going, well, you know, it'd probably be cheaper and a lot more versatile. Why don't we just put a monitor back there? And then we can have them poking up into the other monitor so that you have items that go between the monitors. And that's been carried into this machine, too. When you earn spice or water of life, you actually see it flow from the bottom of the monitor up into the containers on the top monitor. You also see soldiers fall from the top monitor through the bottom monitor. And there's just different things that we can do to create more wow moments than just have a display that's just telling you stuff in a machine. It needs to interact with the player. And to interact with the player, it should be down where the player can see it. And so that's where it started from was the whole idea of, well, what if they're jumping up and down and poking stuff between the two monitors? Wouldn't that be kind of cool? Nobody's ever done that. And that was a struggle finding the monitors that matched. That was a whole other game. But anyway. Well, and that's, you know, again, with the LCD back there, it's like, how do we extend the environment beyond that? So, like, we've got to make sure it's a natural extension of what we're doing. And, like, I mean, I know everyone says that's a signature of what we do, but I'm telling you now, if it doesn't belong there, we won't put it in there. It's just, is there a way that we can help tell what we're trying to tell on this play field story-wise that makes sense and also within our budget and stuff like that of what we can expand on? But the LCD really there is just, it's a storytelling tool. I mean, it helps that we, you know, I have a lot of connections and friends that can help me expand that story on that screen. But it really is, it's like, you just treat it as another toy. That's really what it comes down to. It's just another toy that we get to, you know, get creative with. And on this machine, it's actually extending you into the desert. Like if you look at the siege or the rocks on the right hand side and you look at the monitor behind it, you see that those the siege continues into the desert there. And the same thing with the harvester. When it blows up the explosion, not only does it have red lights and things behind the toy, but you see the explosion is drawn out on the screen. So it's really just like David said, extending the universe further back than the machine could do it on its own. now tell me about your philosophy because other manufacturers have gone with multiple tiers but you guys have it seems like your selling point is saying look you get the complete game all upgrades yeah well it's kind of like this you know it's like uh one ring to rule them all okay so if i may how many times have you heard when other manufacturers come out with the machine Well, I like the art on this one, but I want the LE, but the premium has prettier art. Well, I don't really like that. So why, as a collector and a fan, we want the best version that we can get? And why wouldn't everybody want the best version? And if you've seen what we've been doing lately, it's not only the best version, but it's the best value. You know, so like in this machine, we've added the thunder down under, you know, thanks to Mr. Australia here. You know, the shaker motor inside. We've added the infinity glass and our new horizon lighting system or house system that now shines. It is integrated into the cabinet and it's shining light down on the play field, not in your eyes. And it's actually easily replaceable someday if something should go wrong with it. It's not a big deal to change it out. but it just changes the whole environment because on this machine, one of the things about the Dune movie is it goes from night to day, night to day. And so this needed to be, again, represented in the story. And this new lighting system allows us to do that, to show the story, again, telling the story because there's some of the modes in here. You have to be in day and some of them you have to be in night. And I'll skip ahead a little bit. Later on, it will ship with a topper, the topper you're seeing in the pictures, It's just a flat plastic. Basically, here you go. Here's something to be a placeholder. But there will be an animated topper later, and the toppers will work with the night and day. You will see the color change in lights in those items. So it is in with the game as well.
    33:43
    Well, and I applaud you for that, too, because if you really think about it, because I heard some people, because this is 11.6, right, for this game? There's 11.2. so some people are like well this is a lot to get into but if you think about it you're giving an le product a true thousand count le product with all the upgrades the shaker motor the glass all the bells and whistles for that price that's got to be the cheapest le in the game right now and we didn't even talk about we have a amplified system in the game system now as well because again if we're going to do this cinematic universe it has to sound epic so again these are things that you when you look at the market and you see what the hobbyists are adding onto their games because they want to why should they have to spend six hundred dollars to get a lighting system that they have to pull out of their game if they have to go fix their game like there are just things that we feel should be just standard, period. Now, we did have an internal conversation. It was like, Labyrinth is one of the least games we've seen modded on the market. And half the reason why we love flicking pinball machines is that we get to modify it to make it our own game. And I kind of wonder, like, we're putting all this stuff in it. Are we alienating? Are we taking away? Are we taking away from a bit of the hobby where they like to customize stuff? I'm okay with buying it done. but i bet at the end of the day we can't help ourselves it's like well but we can't put that in there well we we were thinking about just selling the whole machine as a kit no like ikea yeah that'd be yeah like ikea with its you know it's a big book of instructions let me tell you but no we just want we we want everyone to have the best version of the game that we're going to make now i i agree with you on that the only draw i guess the counter argument though is there's a bigger barrier for someone who wants to route this on location and so how do you address that situation because a lot of times people are looking for you know the cheapest version on location because eventually they have to recoup their investment oh but there's a lot of arcades like we have a lot of arcades here in texas that only have ellies okay so i mean i understand that there are you know arcades that want a better value because i know it's really hard to make money on pinball machines in general um but like the thing is we are building our games to last and they can sit on location i mean i've heard labyrinth still to this day and a lot of locations are still earning the top 10 if not five games to this day and they hold up really really well so you over you overcome that with ip and the features in the game because when you walk up and see a game that's been stripped down and is barren, sitting next to a game that has all this stuff in it, even if you're not familiar with either IP, which one do you think you're going to put your money in? And the majority of, honestly, customers nowadays are home collectors anyway. Like, yeah, there's a seismic shift from, again, this was very much an arcade amusement-centric product, but, you know, when the first, like the 2008 crash, That was where the seismic shifted to the home collector, you know, because it's literally us wanting to rediscover, go back to our childhood and teenagers of going to the arcade. And we want to share that with our friends and our families. You know, our kids don't really like it that much. But again, we're trying to connect to them, show them, hey, this is what your dad did. And they're like, yeah, OK. Yeah, whatever. But the other thing is how we define ourselves. We define ourselves as a collectible company. And down the road, you'll see us come out with other stuff besides just the things that are in this room right now. We don't define ourselves as an amusement machine company. We're a collectible machine company. We're creating experiences. Absolutely.
    37:50
    And there's nothing wrong with that. I think the hobby needs more of that in a sense that, like, I think it's this weird balance, right? Like you guys were talking about earlier, you can produce as many of these as you want, but then you kind of lose that collectability to it. You guys are creating a true collectible product by what you're doing. Absolutely. But, like, I mean, would I turn down, you know, a massive license that we can make for years and years? Probably not. But at the end of the day, there are so many new IPs that we want to work with and games that we want to make. like life is too short to spend five years making one title like there is so many things that we want to show you that we're doing like you know this is absolutely the best that we can make right now but like again we have a 10-year plan well we're technically nine years into our plan something like that um but like we life is so short with everything i've experienced from covid within you know family members and stuff like that like i don't want to spend my life making one machine making just one thing i want to empower these amazing people around us to make amazing product and i truly truly we truly believe if we make great product the rest will follow and i mean there's trying times still but again because we can't predict what the world's going to do But, again, if we make a great product, we would be successful. We are much happier making a medium number, a limited number of machines than having a license that is, we have to triple the size of our facility to handle it because, let's say we do that for a license. What happens when that license is over? Do I get rid of half my company, three-quarters of my company? What do I do? and honestly scale wise like again we've gone from two people to over 30 people now and honestly when i look like just we went it's been 18 months just over 18 months we've gone from zero to a thousand and it's been like it's been fantastic but it's been very very trying i mean i am the day-to-day side of it i would say i underestimated what it would be to get where we are but when we're looking at do we want to go bigger than this and we are technically expanding again to basically maintain what we can do vertically integrate with what the pieces and parts what we can do it's like i don't see if i make this any bigger it doesn't make us more profitable it does i mean in reality it's all a small headache so why don't we just do something that we can still have fun. We can still empower the people that we love to work with and make great stuff. We don't need to be any of that. But the other thing that we can do with that is our commitment now that we're certainly absolutely trying to achieve is that we build all of these games basically by the end of the year, somewhere December, January, we'll be done with this. And so because we don't want people waiting two, three, four, five years for a machine. They should get it in a reasonable amount of time. Because if you look at the interest out there, after about so many months, the interest in that one, even though I was all hot and heavy here, has faded away because now there's something else coming. But now I have to wait for that. So there kind of an optimal time frame and an optimal number to make that you can meet those expectation levels and keep all your customers happy and keep them looking forward to whatever the next crazy thing you going to do So that seems that your goal would be basically between and a month If you're going to make $1,000 by the end of the year. Sure. That's not a problem. Yeah, that's what you're looking for. So how many man hours does it take to start a game until the end of the line? And you're putting it in a box. Well, again, we're literally putting 20 games out a week. Okay. That's really what it comes down to. But how long from when you start, the first time you get the cabinet out and you're doing the play field until you're putting it in a box? Is it a three-day process, five-day process? Well, we've got 30 people, a little bit less than that. I can't remember off the top of my head because today's been a really long day. But again, basically a play field goes for a station every 40 minutes. the cabinets done within two hours. Now these are different people. Yeah, they're all different people.
    42:30
    Yeah, so again, we're doing six a day, so we can break that down. I kind of do method this time of night.
    42:38
    Well, then it has to go through QC. QC is another 45 minutes. So it's, you know, if you want to pick a number, it's probably about an hour. Yeah, a machine. Totally, you know, two hours a machine. But it doesn't work that way exactly because it's it's all in pieces and parts so we haven't tried to put a clock exactly on the main it's probably about nine hours beginning but then you're breaking that down okay that's impressive what one thing you guys talked about you said you're like into you're almost 10 years into your you have a 10-year plan you're like nine years in how can we ask how many more or what you're in how how many licenses ahead are you because you said that you started with Labyrinth you were already working on Dune when you had Labyrinth we don't want to know what the licenses are it's an ongoing continual hunt and search things come and go things are available then go away for certain reasons and come back I mean we have at least three, four licenses written it's more than that about six licenses written and then there's some others that are in contract stage and we have three games in active development dang you guys are you're killing it so right now you're like in an 18 month cycle do you plan on maybe bumping that time frame up as you guys get more under your belt it comes down to we want to be agile enough doing you know we've scaling up our facility because with the success of Labyrinth, we had to expand even more. With the amount of games that we sold to try and meet realistic expectations of games going out, which I feel like, I mean, we've done a good job to get all our games out within 18 months, but I still feel like we let people down because people were waiting for this game. So we scaled to try and eliminate that with the next game, which we'll be able to do. And part of that was because we were in startup mode. and startup mode, or as I say now, we've gone from startup mode 1.0 to startup mode 2.0 because this is the first time we flipped the line over. So now we will have had that experience and we know how long it takes to do that, to change all that around. And so as we get through this year, we'll begin to reach normalcy for how we'll operate forever because we also figured out we didn't have enough space, even what we're doing now, So we're in process of going next door as well. Fortunately for us, the people next door left. Yay. So at least more space for us to expand our processes so we can do more vertical integration of the parts. Because the biggest problem we have in all of this is the vendors not being able to deliver the product that they said they could deliver at the time frame or the quality level that they said they would deliver it. And so by bringing in some of the stuff that we can create our own items, we take that equation out. It probably won't be any cheaper, but it will save us money because it will save us time. And we know when it's going to be done, it's going to be there. And we're not going to sit there like the labyrinth that are sitting on the line out there right now. I have no back glasses in them because we're waiting on the vendor. Well, and at the end of the day, it allows us a rapid prototype as well. So now we can go from a three to six-week turnaround time to get prototyping. Now we can literally, how quickly they can draw it up, we can have it cut, formed, and fitted within eight hours.
    46:20
    Now, it's not perfect at all, but it's enough to start mucking stuff up. Yeah, it's going to work. And ideally, we don't want to be manufacturing. It's more of a stock gap. Again, we've learned never have one vendor doing one thing anymore. We have to have multiple supply chains.
    46:40
    So it's really just streamlining and how we get that to all come together. But also when it comes to when you're developing a product, it might just not be the vendors. It could be a licensing situation that has to switch up or something slows down because of X. So we want to have multiple titles in development.
    47:01
    So what happens if game C, all of a sudden oh we've got this great opportunity with this celebrity to do this this and this can we bring it out three months earlier and we want to be in a position where we can take an opportunity and chase that you know or this one's taking a little bit longer but now we can move this one into the you know to let this one take a little bit more time we can bring this one in because this person was like the licensor on this one was very straightforward as much simpler product we can do it we got that out a little bit earlier so now we can take the pressure off this one we're not in that stage yet but we are where we're heading we're heading into that situation where we can try to be as nimble as possible to keep paying we have you know we don't have we have family out there we have employees we pay health care for you know we pay their health insurance we give them a living salary i don't want to ever have to think about laying them off And so it's really important that we get our crap together on the development side so I can keep them doing the job that they love. It's a very complex situation.
    48:17
    Well, it sounds like you guys are heading in the right direction. Obviously, the growth of your company is proof of that. I think everyone's cheering you on. I don't hear anyone that's like, oh, barrels of FOD. Forget those guys. I haven't heard anything. Actually, this would probably be a good time, Josh. Should we look at the play field? All right. Quick side note. If you're listening to the audio right now, we just cut out about 10 to 15 minutes of glass off going through the game itself. If you want to check out that footage, join us on YouTube at Loser Kid Pinball. So just YouTube.com slash at Loser Kid Pinball. get to that video check out the insane worm that comes out of the play field not only does it eat the ball and swallow the ball it raises it up and pushes it out onto the wire form this thing is insane you've got to check this out like i said come join us right now on our youtube if not enjoy the rest of the podcast when do these start shipping well technically one of these games Well, both these games are going out this week to certain locations, and basically we've got to go through all the orders we have right now. Games are on the line. They're actually, I think there's four cabinets out back. Actually, if we was remote, I'd take you walking out there.
    49:41
    But, yeah, we have games on the line right now, but I'm not going to release them very quickly because I want to make sure that these are where they need to be. We've got to ramp up. when when can people get when's the first show you guys will have this at a show to get their hands on so allentown there would definitely be at allentown there's at least two games going to be at allentown um as of tomorrow as we go through the orders that have come through um we will prioritize location and shows and obviously people that have paid their money so again we want to make sure that we can get people to have hands on the game so we're going to get it out to the east coast, west coast. We've got games going up to Europe. We've got a game going up to Europe. We've got a game going to Australia.
    50:26
    They're on their way. Awesome. It's terrifying. You let the babies out. They have to fly out of the nest sometime. Oh, 100%. My wife would kill me if I kept them all.
    50:42
    Well, we want to thank you, David and Brian, for joining us on this episode, for going through Dune with us and talking barrels of fun and talking about the passion that you guys have for pinball. It's definitely bleeding through. I mean, congrats to this game release. It is looking amazing. Is there something you wanted to say, Scott? You know, I was just saying, you're right.
    51:05
    Shipping an LE quality game for a manageable price is the right way to go on this. You definitely feel the environmental aspect of the game, which is what you need for something like a sci-fi game. You need to feel like you're part of the world. Having that screen in the back is brilliant. I remember seeing a mod maybe five years ago or so where someone did, I think it was a Twilight Zone, where they put an LCD back there, and it really changed the feel of the game. Doing this is very smart. And, Brian, you're right. As opposed to just putting sculpted stuff back there, having a screen that you can integrate with the animations is the right way to go. This is great. I can't wait to check it out.
    51:51
    Well, you hope we get to see one pretty soon. Yeah, definitely. Or come get some from barbecue. Yeah. We've got good barbecue here. Sounds good. Well, Josh and I will have to figure out a weekend when we can fly out. I know it's not Houston or Fort Worth, but I've always wanted to hit Austin and go to Franklin's Barbecue. That is one of my – We've got barbecue that can rock. Yeah, you don't need to go to Austin. Wow. Friends don't let friends go to Austin. Oh. If you ask anyone that was here for the Twippy Award tour and the barbecue we had here, I think they were pretty pleased. Nice. There's a place in Denver called Post Oak that is amazing. That's one of my top favorites. So apparently I've got to get down to Houston and see if it can rival what I've had.
    52:32
    That sounds like we'll come see you once you guys come down here at Fairtrade. Okay, sounds good. Is there anything else you guys want to say before we wrap this up?
    52:41
    We want to thank everybody. We want to thank the people that have helped us. We want to thank the people that purchased our games. We want to thank all the media people that came out today and you guys for taking the time to spend with us tonight to go over our new game. And we're here to build collectible games for a long time and come see us and come try out our games. Yeah, and we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the fans that supported that game over there. Like, you guys have no idea how much it means to us. like there's no reason why people should own pinball machines let alone you know crazy things that we want to do and it just it means the world to all of us the people down on the line like we have very little knock on wood but we have very little turnover because everyone loves coming to work and that's that's the most rewarding thing about this whole company is seeing these people make awesome stuff every day. It is hard. And we just, you know, we can't wait for people to experience doing, like, I mean, it is, you know, it is awesome. Yeah, it truly is. You got anything, Scott, before I wrap it up? You know, it's so great. Really, you guys' hands, like, I'm surprised. And I'm not easily surprised when I see the quality that you guys have at this stage of your company. you really have the same quality that I would have expected from a company that's four to five games into their development so you really have jumped far ahead and I'm really looking forward to seeing where you guys are taking it well thanks we appreciate that if someone wants to get a hold of you how do they get a hold of you guys you can find us at barrelsoffun.com collectfun.com socials. Yeah, we're around. You can reach out to us. Perfect. Perfect. If you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We're on all the socials at Loser Kid Pinball. Please like, subscribe, all that jazz. Hit up our silverballswag.com slash Loser Kid. We dropped that new 8-bit t-shirt. People are loving it. They love the retro vibe and everything like that. Scott, give us our last words. Go to Houston. tour barrels of fun