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Kaneda's Pinball Podcast Episode 1000: George Gomez

Kaneda Pinball Podcast YouTube (main)·video·56m 57s·analyzed·Sep 18, 2024
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TL;DR

Gomez reveals Stern's manufacturing scale, game dev cycles, Spike 3 specs, and licensing philosophy on 1000th episode.

Summary

George Gomez, Chief Creative Officer at Stern Pinball, sits down with Kaneda for episode 1000 of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast at Stern's new 200,000 sq ft facility. Discussion covers Stern's manufacturing scale, game development timelines (14-16 months standard, 12 months accelerated), pricing strategy and inflation response, licensing challenges, Spike 3 platform details, and future game themes. Gomez discusses lessons learned from premium-tier pricing experiments (James Bond 60th), passes on Back to the Future and Beetlejuice, and explains creative decision-making balancing financial viability with designer passion.

Key Claims

  • Stern's main facility is just under 200,000 square feet with an additional 80,000 sq ft building housing CNC machines

    high confidence · George Gomez directly states facility dimensions during facility tour

  • Standard game development cycle is 14-16 months; Cornerstone was accelerated to ~12 months due to production scheduling juggling

    high confidence · Gomez explains typical timeline and cites Cornerstone as exception due to another game trouble

  • Stern has not raised prices for 'like two years, two and a half years' despite COVID supply chain costs

    high confidence · Gomez discusses COVID pricing pressures and current price hold strategy

  • James Bond 60th Anniversary's high premium pricing was at licensor request, not Stern's choice

    high confidence · Gomez explicitly states 'the licensor requested it' regarding exclusive collector pricing strategy

  • Stern will likely not do another 'call for price' dealer-set pricing model after James Bond backlash

    high confidence · Gomez confirms community feedback resulted in decision to avoid future call-for-price arrangements

  • Spike 3 will feature a different screen size than Spike 2, but cabinet dimensions will remain consistent with lineup aesthetics

    high confidence · Gomez confirms 'Probably not' same size screen but emphasizes preserving lineup visual consistency

  • Cornerstone will not be the first Spike 3 game; next game after Cornerstone probably won't be Spike 3 either

    high confidence · Gomez states 'Probably not' when asked if next game after Cornerstone is first Spike 3 title

  • Stern's product roadmap for the next two years is 'locked and loaded' with limited flexibility for new theme pivots

    high confidence · Gomez explains scheduling constraints make new theme additions difficult except in anomalies like Mandalorian

Notable Quotes

  • “This hobby is so incredible because of all the men and women who make these pinball machines that we get to critique every single year... we've taken something that's very trivial and we've given it so much meaning.”

    Kaneda@ 0:24 — Philosophical framing of pinball's community value that sets tone for 1000th episode celebration

  • “Everything can't be fixed with a line of code. My world, unlike a purely software product like a video game... [involves] licensing, mechanical things, physical things.”

    George Gomez@ 10:13 — Articulates core difference between hardware manufacturing and software: hardware complexity requires upfront design correctness

  • “I wish you could walk in my shoes throughout the development process entirely... there are so many decisions... there are real reasons that things are the way they are.”

    George Gomez@ 9:13 — Gomez's direct response to vocal community criticism, emphasizing complexity community doesn't see

  • “I can't get anybody to raise their hand [to design Back to the Future]. So could I hold a gun to somebody's head, maybe? But do you really want that?”

    George Gomez@ 23:43 — Reveals designer passion is prioritized over financial/market logic in game selection decisions

  • “We're not dumping product. It's a brand new game... by Christmas they'll be gone... we've learned a lot about their [Costco's] demographic... they have a pretty well-heeled demographic.”

    George Gomez@ 27:11 — Directly addresses internet speculation about Stern's business health; frames Costco as strategic demographic expansion

Entities

George GomezpersonKanedapersonJack DangerpersonGary SternpersonKeith ElwinpersonJoe KamikawapersonStern Pinball

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern-Costco partnership successfully selling home pinball games to well-heeled demographic; games expected to sell out by Christmas; company frames as strategic demographic expansion and brand growth, not distress selling

    high · Gomez: 'by Christmas they'll be gone... we've learned a lot about their demographic... they have a pretty well-heeled demographic... it's an experiment for them and an experiment for us'

  • ?

    community_signal: Community criticism about game decisions acknowledged and heard; Gomez emphasizes complexity of manufacturing, licensing, and design constraints; positioning manufacturing tour as educational intervention against uninformed opinions

    high · Gomez: 'Do you wish everyone could just do a lap here before... because we're so triggered... I wish you could walk in my shoes throughout the development process entirely'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Designer passion prioritized over financial viability in game selection; Gomez values designer enthusiasm and won't force projects; belief that coercing unwilling designers yields poor results; theme portfolio selection driven by designer interest raise-of-hand

    high · Gomez: 'you don't want people making a game that they don't want to make... I can't get anybody to raise their hand [on Back to the Future]... do you really want that?'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Back to the Future licensing available but no Stern designer willing to take project; Joe Kamikawa advocated due to Broadway producer relationships but design team feedback drives game selection over financial opportunity

    high · Gomez: 'I can't get anybody to raise their hand... So could I hold a gun to somebody's head, maybe? But do you really want that?'

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.171

0:00
I am so excited to let each and every one of you hear episode 1000 of Canada's Pinball Podcast. It has been a crazy journey over the last 10 years of my life. I've met my beautiful wife in that time period, had two beautiful children, have met my best friend in the world. Derek, you know who you are through pinball, many amazing friends through pinball. And I just want to say this hobby is so incredible because of all the men and women who make these pinball machines that we get to critique every single year. It's amazing because of the people we get introduced to. We are all nerds and geeks. And I think what makes this hobby so special is we've taken something that's very trivial and we've given it so much meaning. And in return, I think it's given a lot of our lives a lot more meaning than a pinball machine could ever do. How many of you thought that this box of lights would give you and open the door to so many amazing relationships and moments? And I just want to say thank you for being a subscriber. Thank you for being a fan. And let's get to 800 and do a thousand more episodes about pinball. As long as these companies are around, I think I'm going to be here critiquing and congratulating these companies on their efforts. Everybody, thank you so much and enjoy episode 1000.
1:45
© BF-WATCH TV 2021 Come in, George. All right. Here we are in Stern's new facility with Mr. George Gomez, episode 1,000 it should be. So, George, thank you for taking the time. Absolutely. I'm happy to do it. Welcome to the executive conference room at Stern Pinball. Yeah. The conference rooms at Stern are all named after famous Stern games. What's this? This is Stars. Okay. The product development ones downstairs are Flight 2000 and Big Game in honor of Harry Williams, two Harry Williams games. And up front we have Sea Witch, we have Cheetah. And so, yeah, the showroom where you just were, that's actually called Replay. Okay. Is John Wick going to get a conference room one day? There's going to be jokes. There's going to be sarcasm. It's a Friday afternoon. Hey, you know, there's, you know, maybe a bathroom stall. We need a lot of conference rooms to get to JavaWake. Okay. All right. Okay. Well, I just took a tour. Very impressive facility. What's the square footage of this facility? I knew you were going to ask me that. It's just under 200,000, I think. And then there's another building.

Batman LE editions were made in 240 LEs and 80 SLEs; other games made in 50 and 30 unit runs

high confidence · Gomez provides specific production numbers for Batman variants

  • Stern and Costco partnership aims to grow pinball audience; games are selling well and likely to be gone by Christmas

    high confidence · Gomez addresses internet speculation about 'dumping product' and explains strategic partnership rationale

    • “Lord of the Rings is one of the jewels in my portfolio, right? So you go, well, okay [when Gary overruled my Matrix preference].”

    George Gomez@ 25:03 — Gomez reflects on how executive pressure on design choices can yield better outcomes than designer preference

  • “Spike 2 – Spike 1 wasn't around very long, and we quickly found some things that we didn't do so right, and we fix those things... whole new generations of the platform could be a module.”

    George Gomez@ 28:44 — Reveals iterative hardware platform philosophy; explains modular architecture strategy for Spike 3

  • “If you poll design teams and I say, give me your top 10, or I come back to them and I what about Beetlejuice? And our friend Joe Kamikawa pushed us a lot on Back to the Future... I can't get anybody to raise their hand.”

    George Gomez@ 23:17 — Shows how designer preference filters drive game selection, even when commercial/licensing opportunity exists

  • “Mandalorian wasn't planned out two years ahead of time. We saw the show. We said, this is pretty cool... that's kind of an anomaly.”

    George Gomez@ 31:51 — Illustrates exception to locked-in roadmap; shows agility when unexpected cultural moment aligns with existing relationships

  • “Everyone had sort of seen Archer, right? Myself included, so I hired him. We can look back on Elwynn today and say, oh, that was so classic Elwynn... but no, at that time, we didn't know if he was going to last beyond one game.”

    George Gomez@ 34:24 — Reveals Keith Elwin's rise from unproven hire (Iron Maiden first game) to legendary status; explains hiring logic was based on Archer's success, not predicting future legend

    • company
    Cornerstonegame
    Spike 3product
    James Bond 60th Anniversarygame
    Iron Maidengame
    Back to the Futuregame
    Beetlejuicegame
    The Matrixgame
    Lord of the Ringsgame
    Monster Bashgame
    Mandaloriangame
    Batmangame
    Elviragame
    Costcocompany
    X-Mengame
    Ghostbustersgame
    Fifth Elementgame
    Big Trouble in Little Chinagame
    Lion Kinggame
    $

    market_signal: Batman limited editions (240 LE, 80 SLE) cited as example of games maintaining strong collector value; small production runs support secondary market demand; Stern acknowledges scalping era but positions game appreciation as natural market function

    medium · Gomez: 'easily $2,000 to $3,000 were in your pocket if you had a Ghostbusters or a Batman... Those were pretty small numbers. So there should be demand for a game like that'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jack Danger described as appearing tired from accelerated 12-month development cycle on Cornerstone; represents strain of compressed timelines on lead designers

    high · Kaneda notes 'When a designer's game goes on the line, Jack looks a little tired. He's been on an accelerated timeline.'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern held price increases for 2-2.5 years despite COVID supply chain cost inflation; COVID created one-time $millions in inventory carrying costs; pricing discipline prioritizes market elasticity tolerance over margin expansion

    high · Gomez: 'We haven't raised prices in like two years, two and a half years... We used to do a yearly price raise... during COVID [we] paid through the nose for product'

  • ?

    product_concern: Testing failures often result from games being used in ways not anticipated by designers; manufacturing discovers issues through real-world gameplay patterns that test fixtures don't replicate (e.g., terrible players creating unexpected ball trajectories)

    high · Gomez explains: 'A lot of times when something fails, it's not because we didn't test it. It's because we designed the wrong test... being used not the way we imagined it was going to be used'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern's product pipeline is locked and loaded for next two years; limited flexibility for new theme pivots except in anomalies like Mandalorian where cultural timing aligns with existing relationships and available design team

    high · Gomez: 'probably the next two years of our product is locked and loaded... very seldom [do we pivot]... Mandalorian wasn't planned out two years ahead of time... that's kind of an anomaly'

  • ?

    business_signal: James Bond 60th Anniversary premium pricing at licensor request; community backlash on call-for-price dealer model; Stern confirms will not repeat call-for-price strategy; indicates learning from market feedback on excessive LE differentiation

    high · Gomez: 'the licensor requested it... we're probably not going to see another call for price in the future. Yeah, probably not.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Spike 3 will feature larger screen than Spike 2; modular architecture with backward compatibility; node architecture preserved; cabinet dimensions kept consistent with lineup aesthetics; generation visible to players (unlike Spike 1-2 transition)

    high · Gomez: 'Probably not [same screen size]... I am sensitive to the lineup... Screen bigger but translate staying the same size... you're going to [feel the difference]... this one you're going to'

    • 3:55
    There's probably another building that's probably another 80,000 square feet, I think, that is where we have the CNC machines that cut the play fields. Okay. And if you have time today, after we're all done over here, we can drive over there and I can show you that. Okay. And that'll blow your mind because it's like these, you know, four gigantic production robots that essentially cut two play fields up at a time. Wow. I mean, it's a trip to watch it, you know. Big, big, big going through. Yeah, big, big, big routers, you know, cutting wood. It's got a state of the art filtration system because the city want to make sure we're compliant with OSHA and all that stuff. Right. And there's roughly how many people come through the door here every day? About 500. Okay. Yeah. So lots of mouths to feed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, we're a big company. I think as companies in the world go, we're not a big company. I don't even know what you'd call us, a mid-sized company, I'm not sure. But the operation of Make Pinball Machines is way more extensive than a lot of the audience imagines until they've seen it. You've got to walk the floor. Yeah. I was saying that to George when we were walking. Anyone who wants to get into manufacturing pinball, if you do one lap here, it is not for the faint of heart. I mean, there is thousands of parts, there's wires everywhere, but it is a very clean, eat off the floor factory here. I mean, I said it looks like Japan in there. It's very well run, very well managed. new games like you know on monday those guys are going to be in full production on x-men le's and of course the design team has been working with them all along right to hand off the product teaching them how to build sub assemblies making sure that they're building them correctly we do what's called a production validation build where they build the game and then we go back out there and we that's how we also discover you know like what tools we need what fixtures we need you Hey, this is hard to do. Can you give us a thing that helps us? So we go through that process. We're done with that process now and ready to go to production. You caught us on summer hours. Otherwise, you would have seen that crazy buzz of activity. It reminded me of the library at college. I could study in how quiet it was today. I could see how it would be very noisy. And so we just met Jack. When a designer's game goes on the line, Jack looks a little tired. He's been on an accelerated timeline.
    6:46
    What's that like for you as a company when a new child is born in the world? How do you... So throughout the organization, it's a buzz of activity, right? Because the sales and marketing guys are doing their thing. The executive team is doing planning and all that kind of stuff. The design team is really tied up supporting production. Like Jack and his guys live on the assembly line. They sign off on the first couple hundred LEs usually. And then there comes a point in time where they say the line is building them to our satisfaction. You guys have the ball. And then they walk out of there and then they'll spot check throughout the run. or they get called out if there's an issue, right, which is not unheard of. And so, but, yeah, it's a buzz of activity between, you know, every element of the company. The procurement guys are making sure parts are coming in. You know, I mean, the testing guys are testing stuff. I mean, you didn't see it because it's, unfortunately, an extension of Whitewood Lab, but there is a soundproof room that runs test fixtures 24-7. Right. And then basically we test the failure. And a lot of times we're hardly perfect. You guys know this.
    8:11
    Games come out of the box and this doesn't work or that doesn't work, whatever. A lot of times when something fails, it's not because we didn't test it. It's because we designed the wrong test. It's like it's being used not the way we imagined it was going to be used or whatever.
    8:27
    It's hard for them, what he's trying to say, It's hard for them to test a game in the hands of a horrible player like myself who's going to create trajectories that no decent player would ever.
    8:42
    Everyone's too good here. No, I think that it's a complex animal, right? It's like so many parts. So many things have to be perfect.
    8:53
    So, yeah, it's not for the faint of heart. Do you wish, and we're all sort of connected to this hobby in different ways, and there's a lot of vocal opinions about pinball, right? I mean, I have one. The community does. Do you wish everyone could just do a lap here before, like, because we're so triggered. Well, it's beyond that, right? It's like I wish you could walk in my shoes throughout the development process entirely. Like, I mean, if I could. What shoes? Are you wearing Gucci shoes or are they, what are they? I got Adidas time today. So, no, I think that the thing that there are so many decisions that our second guest once again comes out. And there are real reasons that things are the way they are. They're not like we're not ignorant to a problem. We're not ignorant to an approach. Right. It's like, you know, there's there's the complexities of licensing. I mean, I think given what you do professionally, you understand how somebody, I mean, those guys have, it's their football, like Gary says, and it's their football. And when they want to go home, they're going home and you got to play by these rules.
    10:07
    So, yeah, licensing things is a challenge, mechanical things, physical things. My world, unlike a purely software product like a video game, everything can't be fixed with a line of code.
    10:25
    Yes, and the development cycle on a game normally is how long? It's supposed to be between 14 and 16 months. Like Jack, for example, was on our accelerated schedule. He did that game in about 12 months, which is basically – that's old school. That's like when at Williams when I designed Monster Bash that was a 12-month schedule Yeah, right, but games have gotten so much more complex that a 12-month schedule is tight Hell, I think a 16-month schedule is tight to tell you the truth, you know but Yeah, I mean it you know, look I we don't like to do it But every once in a while you have to make adjustments, right? Like the reason Jack got a short schedule is there was a game that was scheduled to be in this slot and that game got in trouble so i had to i had to juggle things right to get you know to get a game ready for production and jack seemed to be cruising um you know because of the mini because of the lower you know the bottom of his play field not being a classic italian bottom and he came to me with this early on and i told him i said look it's not a lot of love for that stuff in this building yeah right um gary stern is just allergic to it and and so you know i told him i said you got to get it past Gary and you got to get it past me. So I said, if you want, if you think this is going to work, you better mock it up like yesterday. So, you know, he, he got that running and I played it, played it a lot. And I figured once I got done playing and I was like, if, if his, you know, cobbled together mock-up works, I know I can make production quality one work. And I just played the game and I will say, I was a little nervous. It might play a little narrow, When you look at it top down, it feels like all the ... You couldn't tell the difference up there. Can't tell the difference. All the shots are opened up beautifully. Getting out of that danger room was fun. I did it right away. I think Jack was kind of happy to see a terrible player like me navigate through the game in a way that is just very satisfying. Fourteen months. Here we are, the number one pinball company in the world, largest market share. We walked through ... Games are going all over the world. How do you feel, you know, coming out of COVID, right? There was a spike in demand. Yeah. We had a shortage of supply. Yeah. Have we caught up? Are we now? So we, yeah, we don't have the backlog of games that we had during COVID, right? But COVID was an anomaly, right? So what we think, it's interesting because people perceive it as a recession of some sort. And for us, this is business before COVID, right? Right. So it's kind of like, you know, yes, it's it's it's less than COVID, but it's it's not you know, it's it's not a recession for us yet. It was it almost felt more like pinballs roaring 20s than a great depression. I mean, a lot of economists are saying COVID was going to create a recession. But ultimately what happened for your business, it felt like people were stuck in their homes. You had a device. Yeah, we boom is an escapism for them. Yeah. And it was great. So, you know, it wouldn't be a chat with me and you without let's talk about where pinball has gone pricing wise, because it is, you know, as we think about opening up pinball to more people. So how do you juggle that? So we haven't had a, we haven't raised prices in like two years, two and a half years or something, I think. We used to do a yearly price raise and it was mostly you know it kind of like I mean most of the drive to raise prices we didn you know what during COVID it interesting because we paid through the nose for product for prices you know for the things that we bought to put in the pinball machines And not only that we had to spend money like Johnny on the spot Normally if you have a vendor relationship like let say you have a vendor that sells you printed circuit boards. You don't pay for that material until you take delivery of that material. And the relationship you have with them is that I'm gonna buy whatever it is, 20,000 of these things from you over the course of the year, and I'm gonna pay you as I take delivery, right? So if I need I need 500 a week, whatever it is, you know, I need you. You know, you need to deliver what that is. And I pay you as I as I receive them. Well, COVID people said, if you want this stuff, you need to pay for it and take delivery today. OK, so we bought chips. We spend millions of dollars buying stuff that we just so we were sure we had it. So we didn't have to shut down. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So which created all kinds of other problems. right? Because now you're carrying inventory, which is the Achilles heel of manufacturing. You're carrying inventory that you don't want to be carrying and then you have to work your way through it. So we come out of COVID and we're doing this analysis on what we have in inventory and it's crazy, right? You go like, oh my God, we had to buy all this stuff. So raising prices, yeah, we don't like to do it. We are sensitive to the notion that the market has a certain elasticity that they can tolerate. Right? And you've dabbled in the exclusive collector pricing. We talked a little bit about this, I think a few times on Facebook, the James Bond 60th. And I know I bring it up because as a marketer, I'm like, that was a time where you've got the hottest designer in your organization. You've got a AAA license, you've got access to all the movie posters. But a single level game, a more basic, to call Keith Elwin something basic is sacrilege, but it was priced really high. And did you guys learn a lesson in that? Did you hear the feedback? Yeah, we heard. Look, we're hardly tone deaf. I mean, you know, we listen. We listen. Sometimes the opinions aren't informed, but we listen and we hear you. um that particular game you know we we actually didn't have an and you know we we didn't intend to do it the licensor requested it okay so the licensor came to us and they said you know we were kind of hoping you did you would do something that was sort of a throwback to the era when bond started and and since i had already started down the path of the cornerstone with the connery years we were like oh man if we had it to do over we probably would have made that the connery years and made the cornerstone everything, every bond, right? But we were down the path. And so we were like, okay, well, can we do, you know, we'll do a single level play field. We'll do score reels. By the way, the score reels, I mean, the amount of engineering in the score reels, those things are beautiful, right? They're so smooth.
    17:17
    So, yeah, I mean, where you get in trouble with stuff like that is you say, this is an opportunity to throw a cookie to the dealers. And so if you do a call for price thing with the dealers, man, it's the Wild West show. And you don't know what – and at that point, I don't know that we're controlling anything.
    17:42
    Well, it was interesting because the dealers were set a high price and then there were a few sold on Stern.com initially for $19.99. And you guys sell just a handful online directly.
    17:55
    Okay, so the feedback, though, we're probably not going to see another call for price in the future. Yeah, probably not. Okay, because I think everyone would appreciate that going away. No, probably not. I mean, and look, we heard you about the, you know, like we didn't anticipate when you make something that's 200 games, that's rarer than 400 games. So we didn't anticipate the backlash of the 400 game edition of Elvira that came after a 200 game edition. Right. So so and I you know, I I was like, I don't understand this. I mean, it's like the other thing that will be the first to tell you that, you know, I if you're buying the games to flip them, you're rolling the dice. You know, it was it was it was a beautiful die to roll for many years. And you did give people, there was a period where you would never lose a single dollar on a Sternelli. In fact, you easily could make a few bucks if you got an Ellie. There was always a race to get on a distro's list. Easily $2,000 to $3,000 were in your pocket if you had a Ghostbusters or a Batman. And it was the golden era for scalping. But also, you know, you think about like something like Batman. Those were pretty small numbers. 240 LEs and 80 SLEs. Yeah, so they're really small numbers. So, I mean, there should be demand for a game like that. And, honestly, it indicates, I mean, those things hold their value, right?
    19:32
    Any more, speaking of Batman, because the SLE is still, I think, one of the rarest. I think, did you make 50 of one game? Am I making something? Yeah, we're 50 and 30. Okay. was made up the 80s. Any more Batmans down the road as a possibility? All this stuff is a possibility. It's a question of can we do a licensing deal that makes sense?
    20:01
    The problem with licensing is that the people at those companies change over and now maybe the new people don't want to do the deal that the old people did. We have challenges in that situation a lot where even in approvals, like going back to make something that you have full approvals on, you've made it and somebody might say, you know what, I don't like that deal. I want to redo that deal. You're like, well, you know. I heard the West family, are they a little difficult to get a renew on that? Or is that just made up? No, I don't know that that has anything to do with it. I mean, we did the deal with Warner, who owned the license. And we never, other than saying, reaching out to Adam's agent and saying, you know, would he participate in, like, the promotion of the game? Other than that, we had no contact. Okay. Speaking of like – there's a lot of superhero games and Marvel comes up over and over. And I will say for those of you worried about another Marvel game, I think when you jump on X-Men, your fears of there being too much Marvel will dissipate quickly. What about Superman? There's a big movie coming out next year. Have you guys – like is that in the mix? Yeah, we've talked about DC. I know you can't say. No, no. We've talked about DC superheroes a lot. I hear through the grapevine one of our competitors has a DC deal.
    21:39
    So I don't know what – I'm not sure. Is it hard to – if you have a great relationship with Marvel, to make a game of a competitor? No, no. They don't even feel like – I don't know that they consider that each other competition anymore the way they used to. Right. The Marvel world is so diverse and has had such success in cinema. I don't ever hear that from... I mean, I want to do Deadpool t-shirts. I'll hear from within Marvel, I'll say, no, I got to protect the t-shirt guy. I wouldn't let him make pinball machines. I hear that, but I don't want you guys talking to DC. I never hear that. You said, maybe it was a few years ago, the theme of Beetlejuice came up, right? And you said, we put it in front of the guys and there just wasn't any interest. Now that the movie's out and you've seen some of the reaction, any regrets not going in that same direction? I think if you're asking me about regrets, the community has such a love for Back to a future that I probably would have taken that. We didn't take that again. Did you pass up on Back to the Future? Yeah, we did. We passed on it. Right. What was the thinking there, George? I got to ask. The thinking is, first of all, you don't want people making a game that they don't want to make. If I poll design teams and I say, give me your top 10, or I come back to them and I what about Beetlejuice? And our friend Joe Kamikawa pushed us a lot on Back to the Future, because he had a relationship. He was one of the producers of the Broadway show. Yeah. With Bob Gale. Yeah. I mean, he's got friendships and he said, hey, you guys really ought to do this. And I'm like, man, I can't get anybody to raise their hand. So could I hold a gun to somebody's head, maybe? But do you really want that? Right. I mean, that's a really interesting scoop. I also think as someone who's directing these designers to be creative and unleash things they're passionate about, is there ever an instance, though, where it just makes so much financial sense to make this theme that you have to make it? You know, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story. When when I was a consulting designer to the company, I wanted to do The Matrix. Right. And I had just done, I think, The Dark Knight. And and I I called Gary and I said, give me The Matrix.
    24:32
    And Gary said, I don't want you to The Matrix. I want you to do Lord of the Rings. And I was like, I was like, I was like, no, no, I want a good alternative. And you got to remember that at that particular moment in time, I don't even think the second film would come out. For Lord of the Rings or Matrix? For Matrix.
    24:49
    Which is good because the first movie is by far. Right, right, right. And so I was very driven by that.
    24:55
    And Gary, to this day, he kind of kids me about it. What if you had done The Matrix? And Lord of the Rings is one of the jewels in my portfolio, right? So you go, well, okay.
    25:11
    Speaking of Matrix, this is a theme that here we are like 30 years later almost, right? Yeah. It's still in the mix of like this theme people want and knowing that you wanted to make it back in the day. I've heard complications like Lawrence Fishburne won't give his likeness, which makes it really hard to make a Morpheus-free Matrix. Is it just not a theme that makes sense for you guys for a reason? You and I talked whatever it was a month ago, a month and a half ago, and you said something to me which conveyed to me that, oh, you absolutely understand. I'm trying to make stuff that appeals to everybody. And when – like I think that if I had to do over again, I would say there are certain titles. We can only afford to do niche titles every once in a while. Iron Maiden was a niche title. I didn't think the U.S. was going to adopt Iron Maiden the way that they did. I was, you know, the Europeans had been asking for Iron Maiden forever, right? So they were like, Iron Maiden, Iron Maiden, Iron Maiden. And when we did that deal, I was, like, really scared. I thought mom's not going to let it in the house and this and that and the other thing, right? So when you look at a company like us, I want, I'm trying to grow pinball, right? we all as a mantra around here. It's why we'll talk about Costco if you want, but Costco is about growing pinball. It's not any kind of a, like there's some speculation that we're dumping product. We're not dumping product. It's a brand new game. And they came to you. I think it's this weird thing where you go on the internet and Stern's getting chastised for like, how dare they? Look, their business is failing. They're selling at Costco. And it's like well, no, you said these games are selling out there like yeah, they're selling really well And and they buy I think by Christmas they'll be gone And I think that and it's an experiment for them and an experiment for us, right? It's an expensive item and but that said we've learned a lot about their demographic in the conversations And and they have a pretty well-heeled demographic And and and I think that the game is you know It's it we did all kinds of things to the game to make the game to make the experience of somebody buying the Costco game a great experience. Like, you know, we went to a real wood play field just like the commercial games. We made it so you can load the balls into the game without taking the glass off. You can set up and you know, you can register the game on IC. We added it without going in the you know, you can open up that coin door and yes, the four buttons are there, but you can do the whole thing on your phone. Right. That, by the way, all of that stuff will migrate into the big games to make that experience better right um are we gonna see any of that in spike three spike three you know you'll probably more than likely get more of everything but it'll feel very familiar okay so and I know that's around the corner and you probably can't reveal too many details yeah how proud of you how proud are you of the innovation you put into spike three and is I know we know it like three is will we feel it like because i always like i ask i think you see it okay okay Okay That good Because I always tell people like did you feel the difference between Spike 1 and 2 No, I didn't. You didn't really, but this one you're going to. Yeah. I mean, so the great thing about – so here's some things we did right.
    28:44
    Spike 2 – Spike 1 wasn't around very long, and we quickly found some things that we didn't do so right, and we fix those things and and when we were fixing them we said you know if it truly is a modular architecture like whole new generations of the platform could be a module right so so elements of spike three will feel incredibly familiar to you okay the node architecture um it'll you know it'll be backward compatible it there's a lot of plug and play stuff right so and now you just got some scoops. You just got some scoops. Same size screen?
    29:29
    Probably not. Oh. That's it. Well, you know, what I think people love about Stern machines in a lineup is how they look in a lineup. And I guarantee you that I'm preserving that. Okay. So I am sensitive to the lineup. I am sensitive to the – Screen bigger but translate staying the same size, people, is what I'm going to conclude on that. You might be spot on. I don't know. Okay, all right. And we're going to see this. Look, Jack's game is on the line, Cornerstone. The next game will be the first Spike 3 game? Probably not. Probably not? Yeah. Okay. Probably not. Will Spike 3 be introduced with a Cornerstone? Probably.
    30:16
    Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right, this is good. No, I'm excited. Now, talking about themes, because it is interesting how this market works. Sometimes there's themes where you hear it and people want to give you money without even seeing it. Can I throw a few themes by you, Mr. Gomez, that I always talk about? Lion King. Well, yeah, what do you think? I think Lion King would sell – what do you think? Would it sell enough? You guys would have to tell me. I think that I want broad appeal stuff.
    30:51
    So what do we do well with? We do well with broad appeal. We do well with humor. Get in here and say hi. Hey, Internet, what's going on? Come on the other side.
    31:02
    What's George saying? What's he saying? Well, we were just talking about Lion King. Oh, I love that. That video game kicked my butt, man. I think it was Genesis. Lion King, I threw Barbie out there. I was like, I'm kind of like, did you guys explore Barbie for the movie? We talked about it. And what happened? We did talk about it. Did Jack not say he loves it? No, I think you got to think about this, right? Like we, probably the next two years of our product is locked and loaded. I'm pulling you in. So probably the next two years of our product is locked and loaded. So we're, you know, we're working way ahead of time on stuff. So it's not to say it couldn't happen, but very seldom. I'll tell you an example of something that where we pivoted really quickly. Mandalorian. Right. Right. We Mandalorian wasn't, you know, wasn't planned out two years ahead of time. We saw the show. We said, this is pretty cool. And we said, hey, we've got a Lucas relationship. Why don't you call over there? And we just happened to have a design team that was coming free about to start something. and we said, yeah, we can turn this. So we went down that road, but that's kind of an anomaly. Right. Meaning that, remember that we're talking to licensors, licensors are talking to us, right? We go to the licensing show, they approach us, they pitch us. Right. We get pitched all the time, you know, like, and you wouldn't believe what people offer us. You know, it's like you go, well, I don't know if that's really, you know, a good fit. When that happens, when a licensor comes to you, are they ever willing to invest enough? Because you're taking a big risk, right? You've got to turn on this big factory. You need X amount of customers. And if they're just like, look, we just want exposure for our brand. Have they ever created a mutual value exchange? So look, private label deal is supreme. That's like somebody that says, how much will it be? Right. And for us, you know, we said, oh, you know, we want you know, we love the notion of a lifestyle brand. It would be a good fit for us. And so we went, you know, we did it. It was I think it was success for everybody. And you have one lying around that I could buy at the original cost of that machine because I would be one of my kids through college. So, OK, so in terms of themes, I want to go back to a couple of themes I've always thrown out there.
    33:33
    Big Trouble in Little China. Love the cool classic. I just heard one of the guys in the studio yesterday say to me, what about Big Trouble in Little China? I'm serious. Is it too niche? It's probably too niche. Okay. Fifth Element. I love that movie. I absolutely love that movie, and I would love to do Fifth Element. I don't know how much of a broad appeal it is, but it's like, man, if we could do Fifth Element. I mean, if you can make Iron Maiden sell. And is there any like, even with some of these themes where you might be on the verge of it being more of a cult classic versus mainstream, but then you hand it to like an Elwynn, right? And you get that audience of fan base because he's the reason why Maiden became Maiden, right? Sort of. If you think about it, he didn't have a reputation at that time. It was his first game. First game. And everyone had sort of seen, you know, everyone had seen Archer, right? myself included, so I hired him. We can look back on Elwynn today and say, oh, that was so classic Elwynn and that was amazing, but no, at that time, we didn't know if he was going to last beyond one game. Right. What's he on in five now? Four? He's on Maiden, Jurassic Park, Avengers, Jaws, and Godzilla. Within the walls here, do you just feel lucky that you found this guy who designed one game in his basement basically and now he's just taking on? I mean, I think, look, I like I, you know, I came up in the mothership. Right. I was surrounded by, you know, I worked with, you know, Richie. I worked with Lawler. I worked with, you know, Nordman. I worked with all those guys. Right. So when I built this studio, I said I want all the good from there and I want to cut out all the bad. And I I also know, you know, I kind of know what it is to be a designer. and I know the skills and qualities and I look for that. And I've tried, you know, I've got the guys I have are guys I've picked. Right. So my success is predicated on their success and vice versa. Right. So I try, you know, I've mentored every one of those guys and they come to me when they have stuff they don't, you know, I don't know what to do with this. and it's a collaborative relationship. I like it. They like it. It's, you know, it's all good. I mean, you know, you, uh, you have to remember that, you know, Elwin is, is one of the best players in the world, even today, you know, and, and, um, you know, he says, you know, he's, he thinks he's lost a step, but, you know, I don't know. Right. And so, so I think, um, You know, I mean, I think you try to build the staff you want, and that's what I've tried to do, right? And the beauty of this is we all have different personalities. We have different characteristics.
    36:55
    Stylistically, we are different. And he's established a style, and Jack is establishing a style. Right. You know, I think I have one. And, you know, I mean, and so it's this mix, right? I saw the excitement for Jack's very different play field, which I love, but you can't make every play field like that.
    37:20
    That's just not sustainable. But can you throw a curveball at it every once in a while? Absolutely. What's the collaboration like here at Stern? I hear stories back in the Ballywins day, it was a little bit more siloed. Like people didn't want to like, yeah, they were competing against each other. And is it more collaborative here? Like, well, Elwynn. Way more collaborative. Way, way, way, way more collaborative. That's why the games, the quality of the games, the studio is vested in the game. Right. So it's, you know, everybody plays everybody's stuff. Everybody comments on everybody's stuff. Everybody, you know, when that guy's doing a thing that can improve what you're doing, And, you know, it's not unusual for him to, you know, for those two guys to talk and say, hey, can I do that after you're done? And it works. And so it's way more collaborative. That's when I talk about the good and the bad at Willie, you know, with seven street gangs. I don't have any street gangs. Right. Right. I mean, I got I got yes, I got, you know, Team Owen. I got, you know, Jack has has worked with a couple of different groups of people. Brian has worked with a couple of groups of people although Brian and Dwight are a thing so it's I've worked with everybody so I get I'm whoever's in the shoot when I have to be up so what's the one thing you wish you could do better as a company why don't you ask me what thousand things if you had to pick one tomorrow So that you just feel like if I could, if we could do this better, I'd be happy. I'd sleep a little bit better.
    39:06
    It's a tough one because every day, no, every day we come to work to try to make ourselves better. Right. So to be better at what we do.
    39:18
    And I wish, I wish my, if I could do anything better, I wish my, I could fix the challenges of licensing. If I could wave my hand and say, take a giant problem away from me,
    39:38
    fix the licensing environment so that I have some licensors that after they've worked with us a couple of times, Marvel is a great example. They worked with us a couple of times. There's an element of trust. They know that you make world-class pinball machines and they know that they don't know anything about making world-class pinball machines. Right. So they are going to let me make world-class pinball machines. When I tell them this needs to be this way or it doesn't work, they understand. Right. This needs to be this way or it doesn't work, they understand. Right. But so that's a unique relationship because we've done so many games with them and, you know, we've gone at it and pulled it off. But yeah, if I could fix one thing in my world, it would be make every licensor easier to deal with and I would be very happy. Okay. I was just hoping he was going to say better lighting. I can imagine how that's a headache and handicapping the creative team when you're dealing with... I mean, I go through it all the time with clients too. There's a saying that I think I've just been saying this at work, would you rather be right or get paid? And I think when you work with a license holder, it comes down to that sometimes where we have to do it this way and we got to keep everything moving because ultimately they're going to sign off. So pinball in five years. I mean, you guys, this thing is, you didn't build this factory and this beautiful studio and this- It took 14 years. So where do you see the hobby going around the corner? I know that's sometimes hard to predict, but also sometimes it feels like the product does sort of stay pretty much the same at the same time. I think one of the most transformational things that I've brought to the product is connecting the games. Insider Connected is transforming the way that people interact with the games. And not only players, but operators. I'm driving traffic to locations. Every time I run a quest, I don't know if you've seen that electric bat episode, but those guys did an episode. We did the WIC contracts quest, and they literally had people going, where's the WIC game? I need to get my badge, right? So we run quests. We drive traffic to locations because not everybody's got a WIC game at home, right? So they're going to go find a WIC game to do that. So that is literally increasing the earnings of that location by something that we did. So we have a lot more stuff like that, that we're trying to grow the community.
    42:26
    That in and of itself, just Insider Connected, just sort of modernizes a pinball machine. Right. And it brings it into, you've got- The internet, right? Yeah. It like in 2022 pinball enters the age of the internet Absolutely I was the last you know I tell people I was I the I people I must have been the last IoT thing in the world right But the beauty of being the last IoT thing is that I got to see what everybody else had done. I said, okay, I'm going to make it better. Is there ever a worry, George, because for this hobby and for the product to go out the door, people need to buy a new inbox. If you're making a game with Internet Connected and you're adding a lot of replay value elements, is there any concern that we're going to make a game that once you have it, there's going to be so much replay value that I don't need a new one? I'm going to put a phrase in your head. What is the addressable market for pinball? The addressable market for pinball is not exactly the market you have. It's the market you don't have. The addressable market for pinball is enormous. Even if the existing market is keeping their pinball machines longer, there are new people that are coming into the hobby every day. When you see something like Costco, you say, this is a gateway drug. I'm putting pinball machines in the hands of people that don't know anything about pinball. And after they've enjoyed that Jurassic Park home for six, eight months, a year, whatever it is, or even sooner, they may look and say, oh, Stern Pinball. They make bigger games. Let's go see what one of those is like, right? Right. So so it's it's about we are all about how do we grow the market and pinball? That's what Insider Connect is about. That's what things like Costco are about.
    44:35
    I mean, really, I'll put something else in your head. There's a generation of kids today because 70 percent of the products are going into consumer environments, not commercial environments. There's a generation of kids is growing up with this in their house. Right. And and to them, they're not going to discover it when they go to college. It's going to be a standard part of their entertainment fair. Just like, you know, whatever entertainment thing you grew up with was a part of your entertainment when you were growing up. Right. So I think in some ways that just that is a bit of a Trojan horse that relative to the success and future of the hobby. Right. Right. I understand the community. You know, we're a tight knit community.
    45:21
    You guys are passionate, beyond passionate, right? And I think that there's, you know, I get this feeling that you think that, you know, when I'm trying to grow pinball, I'm not paying attention to you. And you want my attention. Are you a subscriber of the Canadian Club, Jordan? I'm not. We've got to get you in. It's $5 a month. Yeah.
    45:44
    Question, this is just a, what do you think the ideal amount of games is for a home? I know you want to sell as many as you possibly can. I don't know. It depends on your home. How big your home is. It depends on your home. I live in 1,100 square feet. I've got seven pinball machines in my living room. Do you even need them in your living room? You got them- I have them everywhere. I think I own 30 pinball machines, but I have seven in my apartment because that's all I can fit. But I think it's your situation. It's like when people say to me, man, that's crazy. I don't want that game. I say, if you don't want that game, don't buy that game. If you can't afford that game, don't buy that game. I don't want you to make ... It's sort of like, play it at your buddy's house, play it down the street, at the bar, play it wherever you're going to play it. Play it in league. Don't sweat it. There's one out there and it's okay. We start out with, and most, you know, we've done a lot. We spent a bunch of money.
    46:52
    A lot of the things we know, you know, we've hired real marketers to study the environment, right? I never got a phone call when the brief went out to hire real marketers. RFQ. You didn't get the request from the proposal? I didn't get it. I mean, this might have to be my plan B. So I think, you know, I guess we're not entirely flying by the seat of our pants. We spent some money and figured out. And we learned a lot of things, right? We learned how people buy them, what people hate about it, about the buying process. There's a lot of things we have to improve, right? We come in here every day.
    47:31
    Every element of this company works the business every freaking day, right? So there's a bunch of guys out here, right here in this building, that are trying to figure out, how do I improve the buying experience? How do I make them cost what they need to cost? How do I get more of them out there? What does white glove service look like? What's last mile delivery look like? What is any of this stuff? What do we have to do to grow pinball to make the experience better? To make, you know. Lower the prices. No, okay. I had to say it. Yeah, yeah. I got these big, like, okay. George, I want to thank you for taking the time today. This is episode 1,000. I've been doing this for 10 years. I don't know. a rich use of time. And I apologize to all the people who have done this. Thank you, thank you. And thank you because I do think that all of us content creators would not have nearly as much to talk about if this company did not crank out a machine every three to four months, which is absolutely incredible when you look at how hard it is to get a game to market, work with licensors, and keep making it creative and fresh where we're still buying. You guys, I try to be as transparent as I can possibly be. I'm not going to give you company secrets. I'm not going to divulge strategy.
    48:53
    That's what you come to me for. I will leak all that. But I'm telling you, I guess I wish people would just plain ask me sometimes rather than speculate.
    49:04
    And there's always going to be an element that's like, I don't know, they want us to fail. so they don't like, they must be in real trouble. They've got a thousand games at Costco or whatever.
    49:16
    I don't know. I'm just trying to grow pinball, right? I mean, I don't think you guys are in too much trouble. There was a beautiful Porsche that George picked me up. So things are going well. You didn't tell people about that. We actually have a seven and a half foot diameter pinball. Yeah, so there's a humongous. Yeah, it's going to be like, it's a giant chrome pinball that's going to be in front of the building installing it on Tuesday, it's going to be illuminated and everything, and it's going to be a photo opportunity when people visit us. We just did a big, huge art panel, which tonight, if you're hanging around, drive by because that thing should be illuminated. And you take pictures of it. And then of course, there's big illuminated signs are about to go up. We're redoing elements of the building to try to make it fit us better because this was a shipping warehouse before we took over. Is there any truth to the rumor that you guys are trying to sell Stern Pinball? Is it always for sale if the price is right? It's a privately held company. Where these rumors come from is people see our success and they understand that there's a lot of investment money in the world. It's an obvious leap to imagine that somebody wouldn't be interested in us. That whole thing, I'm not an owner of the company, so it's way above my pay grade. Do you have any plans to retire soon? I'm good for a while. You look really young, by the way, George. Thanks. You're taking care of yourself. I don't feel like I'm taking care of myself as much as I should. I'll tell you that. I'm 69 years old. I'm going to be 70 in June. Maybe we all have the genes of Mr. George Gomez. You do not look. I'm going gray, man. Control GLX time. I'm great.
    51:28
    COVID played havoc on my workout habits, and so I'm trying to get back into it. Well, you look great. Thank you for being such a great host, and thank you for steering. Oh, you know what? So we're sending you home. This is really cool. What do we got?
    51:50
    Days of Future Past. And this comes with the game? I bought everything that I could buy from Marvel directly. The guy that is getting the 811 is getting a hardcover with all of the related stories. He doesn't even know it. Who is it? Ed Robertson? Who is it? I don't know. Somebody bought it on our website. I think. I don't even know who it is. Whoever he is, his plaque is special, so his game is going to be one of one. I love the detail. Yeah. Folks that bought the LEs might see some of these. I don't know. Okay. Kind of like those Deadpool swords. Everybody, thank you, George. Thank you. Appreciate it. Anytime, Chris. Anytime. Just call. Yes. We talk on Facebook at random hours. You're always up early. You're up when my kids are up. Yeah, this business, man. You're a 6 a.m. guy like me. All right, everybody. Take it easy. You got the touch.
    53:06
    You got the power. Yeah! After all is said and done You never walk, you never run You're a winner You got the rules, you know the strength Break the rules, take the heat You're nobody's fool.
    53:51
    You're at your best when the door gets shut. You've been put to the test, but it's never enough. You've got the touch.
    54:04
    You've got the power. When all hell's breaking loose, you'll be right in the eye of the storm. You got the heart You got the motions You know that when things get too tough You got the touch You never bend, you never break You seem to know just what it takes You're a fighter It's in the blood It's in the will It's in the mighty hands of steel When you're standing your ground And you never get hit When your back's to the wall Gonna fight to the end And you're taking it all You got the touch You got the power When all hell is breaking loose You'll be right in the eye of the storm You've got the heart You've got the motion You know that when things get too tough You've got the touch
    55:42
    You're my revival You know you've got my touch You're at your best When the door gets run You've been put to the test But it's never enough You've got the touch
    56:12
    You got the power. Yeah. You got the touch. You got the power. I'm out of here