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Episode 389: Bowen Kerins is busy!

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·36m 8s·held·Feb 5, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Bowen Kerins on 2024 tournament wins, Barrels of Fun's Labyrinth launch, Pinburgh's return, and game show work.

Summary

Bowen Kerins discusses his busy start to 2024, including winning the Classics event at InDisc, Massachusetts state championship, and his work as rules designer and consultant for Barrels of Fun's debut game Labyrinth. The conversation also covers the return of Pinburgh tournament in July 2024 with Barrels of Fun as a major sponsor, and Bowen's work as a mathematical advisor on the TV game show Deal or No Deal Island.

Key Claims

  • Bowen won the Classics event at InDisc in January 2024

    high confidence · Jeff Lee (host) congratulates Bowen on the win; Bowen confirms and describes advancing through rounds with help from Sean Irby, Bob Matthews, and Daniele Acciari

  • Bowen won Massachusetts state championship in 2024

    high confidence · Bowen confirms winning at Western Mass Pinball Club, winning games including Target Pool, 24, and Diner; mentions highest-ever Diner score of 90 million in semifinals

  • Barrels of Fun's Labyrinth was kept completely secret before its Expo reveal

    high confidence · Jeff notes the game 'came out of nowhere' and he had no idea it existed; Bowen explains the team wanted to keep everything secret and show a complete, polished product at launch

  • Bowen's role at Barrels of Fun is rules consultant/tuning specialist, not lead designer

    high confidence · Bowen clarifies: 'my job is to kind of help with the rules, read Phil's rules, make some notes, offer some improvements, play the game, and just kind of clean up all of the little bits and pieces that make something feel right'

  • Pinburgh tournament is returning in July 2024 with a 144-player cap for the first year

    high confidence · Jeff and Bowen discuss Pinburgh's return; Bowen notes it's a smaller version to start and confirm '144 people is certainly no small tournament by any means'

  • Barrels of Fun is a major sponsor of Pinburgh 2024

    high confidence · Jeff states 'Barrels of Fun because they're a major sponsor' and Bowen confirms 'David has said he wants to do whatever he can to get Pinberg back'

  • Bowen worked as a mathematical advisor on the TV show Deal or No Deal Island, holding suitcase #23

    high confidence · Bowen describes working with game producers to determine suitcase values, banker offers, and probability calculations for Deal or No Deal Island; confirms he's holding suitcase 23

  • Labyrinth's lead designers are David Van Es and Brian Savage, with programmer Eric Kripke

Notable Quotes

  • “You let the others carry the weight. You just kind of ride on their backs. I know what it's all about.”

    Jeff Lee @ ~0:03:00 — Joking commentary on Bowen's tournament success, noting he advanced through early rounds with help from stronger players

  • “I love that launch more than any other launch in the last five years, maybe even more...when Barrels came out, it was out of nowhere. And that's why I loved it so much because it really was Christmas.”

    Jeff Lee @ ~0:17:00 — Highlights the strategic value of Barrels' surprise reveal vs. typical industry pre-announcements; emphasizes first-impression importance

  • “You're only going to get one chance at this, so better make it good...the choice of Barrel's here, to wait and say, you know what? You're only going to get one chance at this, so better make it good.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~0:19:00 — Explains Barrels' risk-averse launch strategy and the importance of a polished debut for a startup manufacturer

  • “It just shows up. And that's not really possible in the age of the Internet, but you can get somewhat of that flavor with the way that Labyrinth was rolled out.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~0:20:30 — Describes the Labyrinth launch as mimicking the surprise arcade experience of classic pinball, which is difficult in the modern era

  • “I don't care that I don't play in it. I just want to help and make it continue to be great and be part of the team that does that.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~0:35:00 — Expresses Bowen's commitment to Pinburgh's success despite not competing, showing community-focused priorities

  • “Running Pinberg was like running a wedding. And some things are definitely going to go wrong when you run a wedding...it's about minimizing how terrible the terrible things happened.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~0:40:00 — Bowen's framework for managing large tournament complexity and unexpected failures

  • “Deal or No Deal Island is an insane idea where you imagine Survivor and Deal or No Deal had a baby.”

Entities

Bowen KerinspersonJeff LeepersonBarrels of FuncompanyLabyrinthgamePinburgheventDavid Van EspersonBrian Savage

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Barrels of Fun's Labyrinth launched at Expo with complete secrecy and polished presentation, winning best-booth recognition

    high · Jeff: 'Came out of nowhere...I think you even showed me a few things. Holy cow, is that ever a fun game.' Bowen confirms extensive work on rules and tuning with full team completion before reveal.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barrels of Fun deliberately kept Labyrinth secret to create surprise debut and avoid showing incomplete work, prioritizing first impression over early hype

    high · Bowen: 'what I really haven't had the opportunity to do...is keeping the whole thing like the company every little detail secret.' Jeff: 'when Barrels came out, it was out of nowhere...that's why I loved it so much because it really was Christmas.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Bowen Kerins won InDisc Classics and Massachusetts state championship in early 2024; posted 90 million on Diner in MA semifinals (personal best)

    high · Jeff congratulates on Classics win; Bowen describes advancing with help from stronger players; confirms 90 million Diner score 'highest score I've ever recorded on Diner'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinburgh match-play tournament returning July 2024 in Bridgeville with 144-player capacity after multi-year hiatus; Barrels of Fun is major sponsor

    high · Jeff: 'Barrels of Fun because they're a major sponsor...come this July.' Bowen confirms smaller first year with plans to grow to 300+ players minimum next year.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Barrels of Fun assembled experienced design team: David Van Es (lead), Brian Savage (co-founder), Eric Kripke (programmer), Phil Grimaldi (rules), Bowen Kerins (consultant)

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.108

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teals you can find everything on pinballprofile.com we're on twitter we're on instagram we're on facebook you can email pinballprofile at gmail.com if you'd like to show your support on patreon that would be wonderful Don't worry, not necessary. The show will always be free, but it helps keep the show going. So thank you to great supporters like Tony V, Bart V, Sean I, Rodney C, and others. Patreon.com slash pinball profile. The last time I saw this guy, he was in the West Coast doing wonderful things. He's normally on the East Coast, but somehow, someway, he's back on the West Side. One of the greatest pinball players of all time, Bowen Cairns. How you doing, Bowen? Hi, Jeff. It's great talking to you again. You've had a pretty busy January, and the start of the month was pretty awesome. People might say, oh, it must have been the big win at Indisc, and I was referring, no, it was our dinner at Portillo's. That was what pushed you over the edge. Oh, absolutely. I was walking in the convention hall, and I see Nick and Joe, two of my friends, and they've got Portillo's, and this is like unheard of. It's California. Portillo's is a Chicago hot dog place that I must go every time I go to Chicago. And so the decision was made to immediately go to Portillo's and ended up buying a couple of things for other folks, including Ray Day and Brian Shepard. And you came along for the ride for, you got an Italian beef, I think? I think so. I can smell when someone's going to get food. It's a real skill. You know, if I could translate that into some sort of pinball skills that you seem to have, I think it would be putting the whole package together. But thank you for that. You came back, and you won the Classics event. No easy task, especially with that field. That was amazing, and I was with some excellent players who ushered me through the first few rounds. Sean Irby from Seattle, he crushed that first round, and I snuck through in second place, so I got to advance. And then I got ushered through rounds by Bob Matthews and by Daniele Acciari, and I finally saw in the Final Four that I was the only group I won. You let the others carry the weight. You just kind of ride on their backs. I know what it's all about. but I've been there myself, and it was a nice win, and we got to see it on IE Pinball, and you've won so much. I don't even know where that ranks. I was just at Adam Becker's house, for example, on the weekend for the Ontario Provincials, and he has still the IFPA 15 banner of all past winners, and you've won the IFPA championship twice, two big majors. But it's still got to feel pretty good here in 2024, especially with that type of caliber field. Oh, shoot, it's amazing to qualify in any of these tournaments. now, and I managed to qualify in the main and probably got booted by Derek Thompson and Brian Shepard. Maybe I shouldn't have bought Brian that Portillo's. It turns out when I buy food for other people, they end up, like, kicking ass in pinball tournaments. The other food I bought for someone on Sunday morning for the finals was one of those It's It's, the ice cream cookie sandwiches. Okay. They're also California only, and some guy named Dalton Eli took my other... So I took one of my extra it's-its, and he had a good day. Pretty good day. $15,000 later, the high-stakes winner, and congrats once again to Dalton. But you parlayed that into what you just did recently, state champ once again. So congrats on that. Thanks. Yeah, I've always tried to play in Massachusetts because that's where I live, and I feel like if I'm going to represent, I'm going to represent local. and we played at the Western Mass Pinball Club, which for those who are local, it's absolutely fantastic. 40 games, one charge, come in and play as much as you want, and the games run the gamut from the absolute brand new to great games from the 60s. Lots of EMs to play and practice on as well, so if you're looking for somewhere to get better at EMs, Western Mass Pinball Club is a really good choice. And this year they changed the format of the state championship so that you have to choose among EMs as well as early solid states or the old, mid, and new, depending on where the location was, dividing the games into the category by age. I ended up winning a couple of clutch games at Target Pool, one of my absolute favorite EMs. It is good. And then the other two were just riding coattails on 24 and Diner, two games where shot making is of the essence. and my shot making held up throughout the day. You mentioned Diner, and Z-Mac, who just won his second major in three years at the IFPA Open at InDisc, he was playing Diner, and I believe it was on stream at the time, and there was almost like a new meta in how to play that, at least that version, because you couldn't get Diner really quickly, you couldn't get multiball quickly, you couldn't hit the scoop, all the things you can normally do on regular settings of Diner. He didn't even stir the cup. He basically took the ramps once Diner was spelt and shot the ramp, waited for the stir the cup feature to go away, and then do it again, all to the tune of 250,000 points each time. And it was a method to his madness, but obviously it worked. It was a very strong strategy on a tough Diner, where you put up a 4 or 5 million score, and it has a good chance of holding up against tough players. I couldn't put more than 3 million on it. But I had to play Diner in every round in the Massachusetts championship. I got the highest score I've ever recorded on Diner in the semifinals against Nixon Deos from New York. A 90 million on Diner. Oh, boy. Zen, for his credit, is cracking me up the whole time behind me doing the voices of the customers.

high confidence · Bowen identifies design team: 'David David Van Es, Brian Savage, the other lead partner in the company...programmer Eric Kripke, and then our mechanical designer...rules designer is Phil Grimaldi'

Jeff Lee @ ~0:50:00 — Describes the show's novel format combining two game show franchises

  • “The final payout in the final episode for the grand winner could be anywhere from upwards of $15 million as the maximum...as low as one penny.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~0:53:00 — Illustrates the extreme variance in Deal or No Deal Island's prize structure based on player decisions

  • “If the player makes a bad deal, they are eliminated...anyone who makes a good deal gets to handpick someone else to be eliminated.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~0:57:00 — Explains the high-stakes elimination mechanic that combines game theory with alliance dynamics

  • “Chris Burnett ran an amazing race pinball tournament...they are so fun...he went whole hog into trying to make the tournament play like a real episode of Amazing Race would.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~1:01:00 — Notes emerging trend of themed tournament formats that mimic TV show mechanics

    • person
    Eric Kripkeperson
    Phil Grimaldiperson
    Sean Irbyperson
    Bob Matthewsperson
    Daniele Acciariperson
    Deal or No Deal Islandproduct
    daltonpinballperson
    Western Mass Pinball Clubvenue
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Kevin Martinperson
    Mark Steinmanperson
    Chris Burnettperson

    high · Bowen identifies full team composition and roles; notes Eric Kripke 'had a good year in 2023'; Phil Grimaldi worked previously in Houston community

  • ?

    community_signal: Bowen prioritizes tournament organization and community service over competitive play; helped build Pinburgh format and now supporting its revival

    high · Bowen: 'I don't care that I don't play in it. I just want to help and make it continue to be great.' Discusses founding Pinburgh with Mark Steinman and format evolution over years.

  • ?

    technology_signal: Bowen's work at Barrels includes fine-tuning game choreography, light show timing, and responsive code updates; mentions rapid iteration with programmer Eric Kripke

    high · Bowen: 'I can say...it'd be really cool if the game did this here...And then 10 minutes go by, and he pushes a button, and now the game does those things.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Bowen Kerins appearing in TV show Deal or No Deal Island as suitcase holder #23 and served as mathematical advisor for game design; show airs within a month of podcast recording

    high · Bowen describes working with game producers on probability calculations and suitcase values; ads for show airing everywhere; final episode prize pool up to $15 million

  • ?

    design_innovation: Pinburgh's match-play format with banks of 4 games, multiple rounds, and division categories (A/B/Novice) designed for both competitive depth and accessibility; requires extensive infrastructure and coordination

    high · Bowen describes building format incrementally: starting with 3 games/round, growing to 4; explains why EM games scheduled first for A division to avoid blocking other players

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Barrels of Fun emphasized manufacturing excellence for Labyrinth launch, with standardized assembly line now producing games matching debut quality; mentions Paul and Lee as assemblers

    high · Jeff: 'if those games break down...we lose...seeing folks put those games together...now we're getting to the point where there's a full standardized manufacturing process...people are receiving their games and they're coming out just as well'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Bowen hints at unannounced Barrels of Fun projects; mentions being in Los Angeles for 'mysterious purpose' he cannot discuss

    medium · Bowen: 'We're shipping and shipping and shipping right now, and we're all here in L.A. for some mysterious purpose. I can't even talk to you about it.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Barrels of Fun took significant business risk as startup manufacturer; success depended heavily on avoiding negative first impressions and ensuring polished launch

    high · Bowen: 'David and Brian are taking huge personal risks to make this company.' Jeff: 'the company probably might not have survived that type of rollout' if incomplete.

    • 6:01
    Even in 2024 when they might not be politically correct. I have chili and a root beer, man. Yeah, yeah. Zen is a funny guy and a great player, too, so congrats on that. Well, here we are. I know you're in L.A. right now and you were doing some business stuff. You had not only a good January, but the last few months have been fantastic because when I went to Expo, I saw something I had no idea I was going to see, much to my delight, and everyone's there, including best in show as far as best booth, and you could tell because there was always a lineup. this new company called Barrels of Fun and a brand new wonderful game, Labyrinth. I was able to shoot it a few times. I think you even showed me a few things. Holy cow, is that ever a fun game. Came out of nowhere, and you were part of a wonderful team that put that together. Yeah, I've been working on Labyrinth along with the Barrels team off and on for many months. And the team, the lead design for the game is David Van Ness, Brian Savage, the other lead partner in the company. Both of them are out here in Los Angeles, along with programmer Eric Kripke, and then our mechanical designer, as well as, yeah, that's the team that's out here right now. But the rules designer is Phil Grimaldi. And so my job is to kind of help with the rules, read Phil's rules, make some notes, offer some improvements, play the game, and just kind of clean up all of the little bits and pieces that make something feel right. Right. I don't know if you know what I mean by that, but just the details on timing, the details on choreography, on light shows. And I don't necessarily make those, but I can say, oh, it'd be really cool if the game did this here. And it's Nate going down to Texas along with Eric, and he's standing there with the game code in front of him. And I'll play the game and I'll say, oh, yeah, that didn't work. You shouldn't have done this. When these lights come on, do you do this? How do I do this? And then 10 minutes go by, and he pushes a button, and now the game does those things. And that's, I think it's a testament to the fact that everyone in the team has both a specialty, but also a very high general interest in making great games. I love the team you mentioned there, and some names we know, some we don't. And Dave, the NS you obviously had some experience with. You know, we were just talking about the state finals that you won. and I had to play in my provincials, and the one game I didn't know was Rick and Morty, and I had to watch your tutorial, and I did, and obviously going back to maybe some spooky days, you've had some connections with David, so it's great to see him bring along you and others too. Phil Grimaldi, it was exciting to see him. I've known what the Grim Reaper's been doing in Houston for quite some time, and his excitement when that game was released at Expo, I mean, you could not wipe that grin off his face. Oh absolutely And what I really haven had the opportunity to do in my other work with both Spooky and with Multimorphic is keeping the whole thing like the company every little detail secret and then trying to figure out what's the right way to roll this game out and when and what do you want to make sure it's capable of before you ever show this to the public. As a brand new company, Barrels is in a difficult spot. Imagine rolling the game out and it's incomplete. It just kind of looks okay. People's first impressions won't be good enough to let you realize that Barrels is going to be a major player as a pinball company instead of just being a boutique that makes five games here, ten games there. We're shipping and shipping and shipping right now, and we're all here in L.A. for some mysterious purpose. I can't even talk to you about it. but I'm really happy with the team. I think that we're all valued. We all care about making fun games and also telling good stories, and the way the story got told by Labyrinth is very good. I can only hope that what we do next will have as much the same flavor, if not more. I love that launch more than any other launch in the last five years, maybe even more. and why I love it so much is for whatever reason, through friends, through grapevine, through trust, through NDAs, I've been able to know quite a few games that are coming out and many still to come. And it's easy to keep a secret because I respect those relationships. But when Barrels came out, it was out of nowhere. And that's why I loved it so much because it really was Christmas. I want to be surprised when something comes out, and not just comes out, but like you said, complete. And I can only imagine how long this Barrels of Fun team has been working on this, and you're so excited to let people know, look, we've got a great license, we've got a great game, we've got this wonderful team behind us, look at the artwork, look at everything, and the rules are done, and you can play it, and it's physical, and there's several machines here, and it's ready to go out of the box. And you have to keep quiet because, like you said, first impressions are so hard to overcome. And if it was just a box of lights or just incomplete code or, you know what, we've got some placeholders here for imaging and this and that, the wow factor would not have been there. And to be honest, the company probably might not have survived that type of rollout. Brand new company, you're taking a huge risk. David and Brian are taking huge personal risks to make this company.
    11:47
    And the fact that they're thinking very carefully about this mattered. It mattered a ton. And you're right. Even if I think of the rollouts that I've had for other companies, when I remember the first time I ever saw Alice Cooper, and it took another year of work to get that game into good condition, And things like that happen. And that's the choice of Barrel's here, to wait and say, you know what? You're only going to get one chance at this, so better make it good. If you get a chance when you talk to David,
    12:25
    he's always thought of this as being like going to an arcade in 1991. And you show up at your arcade, and all of a sudden there's this brand-new crazy game, and it's Adam's family. It's got shots everywhere. Where did this game come from? What did it do? What happens? Nobody has any idea. It just shows up. And that's not really possible in the age of the Internet, but you can get somewhat of that flavor with the way that Labyrinth was rolled out. Yeah, that's a great comparison. And, you know, I hadn't seen David in a while, and I grabbed him at Expo. We grabbed a bite to eat, and he was glowing. And equally nervous, obviously. You know, how is this going to do? How is this going to be received? it went off without a hitch, at least to the plain eye like myself, and I think to the masses as well. And I think we're all excited for a company, any company, to succeed, but a startup like this and with the good people, you mentioned Eric Priebke, boy, did he have a good year in 2023. Oh, yeah, definitely.
    13:26
    And what you said about the rollout, I just want to put in another word for the folks who are assembling those games. like if those games are great in software in artwork in whatever and they show up at Expo and they break down, we lose and so seeing folks put those games together like Paul and Lee and the others and everybody's, everybody chipped in and creating and manufacturing those games and now we're getting to the point where there's a full standardized manufacturing process like an assembly line, it's becoming more normalized people are receiving their games and they're coming out just as well as those first 10 that were shipped to Expo. If that didn't go just right as well, you'd have the same boat of a reputation built around that first rollout. Well, I know there's a lot of good plans in the future for Barrels of Fun, and in fact, they are going to be a big part of another massive event this summer that you are definitely a big part of. How exciting was it to hear that Pinberg is coming back? And I say Barrels of Fun because they're a major sponsor. That's right. David has said he wants to do whatever he can to get Pinberg back.
    14:40
    And so here it is, come this July. It's going to be a smaller version for the first year as well. Then Pocas has talked as well about the plans to grow a thing. You've just got to start somewhere. and where we're able to start is space rented a couple towns away. I think we talked, you know Bridgeville. Bridgeville's got some good food, and it's not far away from downtown, and it's only one town over from where the Pop-Up facility used to be back in the day. So it's kind of like a homecoming event in some ways, and we're running the same format for Pinberg as we did before with two days of play guaranteed for everyone and then the third day for finals. Yeah, starting somewhere, again, I'm excited. 144 people is certainly no small tournament by any means. And to those that, I understand the disappointment, but you've got to start somewhere. And 144 is better than zero, which it has been for the past few years. And Doug on this program has set next year minimum of 300 and growing from there on. So, yay, it is back, and we are excited, and I know you've been a big part of that for years. I am always amazed when people like yourself, and we saw so many others do this, but especially at Pimberg, give up their time for the benefit of everyone else when I'm sure you and others would love to be playing in it. This was always a format that I wanted to promote. In fact, maybe two years before Pinberg ever got started, I would talk to Kevin Martin, the director at Papa, and just say, you know, you've got this big facility now. You could run this. You could run a match play tournament and have like 100 or more players, which at the time was an absurd size for an event. And he was like, no, who would come for that? Come on, man. You'd have to get all the games in good shape. It's so much work. And so he tabled it. A year later, I'm like, how about now? How about now? And basically, it's like, well, if you want to be in charge of it along with Mark Steinman, go for it. So we built the format. We built the setup of having, that first year, we had only three games in a round. And then we kind of grew it based on the time. We're like, okay, we can do four games a round. We can do this many rounds. We can do this kind of final instead of a Papa-style final. All those things grew up year to year. The very first Pinnberg was 173 players, but it was just a wide open tournament. There was no limit on the number of people who would be registered. And then we went to 273, 400, 400 again, because we had maxed out the number of people we could hold in the original POP facility. And then Simon decided, you know what, let's go for it. and he and Doug and some others, they were the huge people pushing to make replay effects happen and that event was spectacular. I don't know if I'll ever get back to that size, but it was amazing. Well, they have great plans indeed and I'm looking forward to being at the Resonine this July for Pinnberg and again thank you to Barrels of Fun thank you to the UK Open and thank you to Flippin Out Pinball for really showing support in this And there are other great sponsors as well But it really helps with the sustainability of Pinberg and to grow it, like you say, in years. But that format, that's the thing. I mean, I love that you and whether it's Mark, whether it's Doug, whether it's Kevin, wanted to do this because it is not an easy format because you need so many machines. It's just easier to do a card-based format or a pump-and-dump or just a couple of rounds here and there of smaller match play. Not banks of four and different eras. I know Yagpin, at the time of this recording, just put on their hardcore sales and did quite well with that. So there is a need for that wonderful, if you will, Pinberg-style match play tournament format. It's just so hard to run and requires so much tech and support and TDing. I mean, they used to run the Fight Club in Pittsburgh just to get those games ready. It's not easy, and we should be thankful for those that do it. Yeah, I used to say that running Pinberg was like running a wedding. And some things are definitely going to go wrong when you run a wedding. There are too many people, there are too many things, there are too many moving parts. and it's about minimizing how terrible the terrible things happened. So one example at Tinberg in 2012 or 2013, we had one entire power grid area just go down. And so 40 games shut off all at once. All around was going on. And the magical thing is that most people never found out about that until much later in the day because they were off doing their own games. and we have the ability to reset everyone and we have the rules written well and we have cooperation of the players. You just have to be ready for all of those things. And you're right, this is a harder format than a pump and dump. Most of the time, pump and dumps are kind of boring. You're sitting in a line or you're waiting to do something. You're not playing pinball. And I think this format is super valuable for that. the sport is also really great for new players and casual players.
    20:21
    Well, I like at Pinnberg and Pump and Dumps too, and I'm weary of this too for the tournaments that I run, and I'm sure others are too. If you just have the winners win, well, it can be discouraging perhaps. I mean, it's still fun. It's playing pinball and stuff, but it's deep on the wall. So having the B divisions or novice divisions and things like that Pinnberg did very well, I think that was inspiring to others because, again, okay, well, I've got a chance. And what else is there? And that's the great thing about Pinnberg is it's not just Pinnberg. It's whipped. It's the bash at the Berg. It's the three-strikes tournament. There are other opportunities, too, so it's not all your eggs in one basket, if you will. There's just going to be a ton to do at the new Pinnberg as well. Those same events will be back. and the goal is to build it back up to that full capacity. And I'm just really proud of having helped to build this thing. I don't care that I don't play in it. I just want to help and make it continue to be great and be part of the team that does that. It does take a huge team to make this event work. Even at 144 players, it's a lot of people. At 1,000 people, it's a staggering number of people making it all work. but it just scales up. So it's not actually really any harder to run 1,000-player pinball than it is to run 144-player pinball, and vice versa. It's still going to be really challenging to run this tournament in July. One thing I've always admired about the pinball tournament and whenever you go to Pittsburgh, and whether it's the mecca of pinball or not, to many of us it is, I love that the people behind it want to make sure every aspect is enjoyable because as soon as you set foot in Pittsburgh, whether it's your hotel, whether it's travel, whether it's the parking, everything is kind of all lumped together. This is my Pimberg experience. Whether there's food nearby, little things like that. It's all part of it, and they're very conscious of making sure everyone has a wonderful time. And the tournament itself is the thing they control the most. And what I like about Pimberg is you know when you're going to play. These rounds are set at certain times, and they start at certain times, That gives you time to mingle or go off and do whatever you want and maybe play some free play games. Whatever it is, that schedule is really, really important to Pinnberg, and it's not easy to do. So I appreciate that they put the time and effort in that. Yeah, that was one thing that I always pressed very hard for is running the train on time. And we have the dinner break where we have it for a specific reason, to recover if we're behind by a few minutes. We have the rounds built up the way we do so that things can end the way they do. For example, that's why the A Division players started on the EM, so that they could end on the potentially longest playing modern machine and not block anybody else from having to wait. So all those decisions incrementally over the years made the tournament more and more efficient. I can only point to two situations where we were even over by five minutes, and the one that people tend to know about is the one where Andy Rosa and some other players ran the table on a bank of games and played World Poker Tour until forever.
    23:46
    Yeah, some games do that, but that's why you see the tougher settings and certainly the challenge, but it's the same pinball machine for everyone no matter what the settings are. So Pinburger again coming up in July. Tickets go on sale F5 day, February 5th at noon Eastern, So go to pinberg.com for all the information. You talk about times and scheduling and probabilities of things to happen when you're calculating, okay, how is this going to work for the players? That probability, that math side, that's always been your strong point and really your career too. But it's taken us into different spaces too. Whether you are on a game show yourself like who wants to be a millionaire years and years ago, a young Bowen. It's scary to look at those photos now, isn't it? But anyway, I say that too as having just getting my passport photo done this week and looking at my old one, I'm like, ooh, that was only 10 years. Yikes. Anyway, game shows, whether you're on them, the thing is, you're behind the scenes on many of them, and you and I have talked about some of the things you've done, but I've been seeing these ads everywhere on TV for Deal or No Deal Island, and sure enough, Bowen, you're a part of that. Explain what Deal or No Deal Island is. Deal or No Deal Island is an insane idea where you imagine Survivor and Deal or No Deal had a baby.
    25:10
    And players compete in challenges to earn suitcases. The higher or lower suitcases can give them advantages in the game, such as immunity or the ability to select other players to be up for elimination. and then those suitcases also become the game board for a game of Deal or No Deal that occurs in the same episode. And the idea being that over the course of the different episodes, they'll be banking money for a jackpot that will eventually be played for by the winner of the entire series. So there's, I think, 12 players and in the first 11 episodes, one player gets eliminated each episode and then whoever is the final player plays in the last episode a complete full game of Deal or No Deal for probably the largest cash prize ever on Deal or No Deal, perhaps even the largest cash prize ever on any game show in history. So I like this aspect because I certainly follow Survivor. When Deal or No Deal came out and Howie Mandel was hosting it, that certainly caught the eye of everyone and really took off by storm kind of the way Who Wants to Be a Millionaire did. So now merging, as you say, Survivor and Deal or No Deal, and it's a series. So I like that because Deal or No Deal, you could have two, maybe three different players on an episode. But this one, okay, we're invested in the players. We're curious to see who will make it to the end. And like you say, the stakes are higher than they've ever been with big prizes. So what are you doing behind all this? Which suitcase are you holding?
    26:50
    I'm holding number 23. But I worked with one of the game producers. Really nice working with him. He was spectacular. And then he went down to film the actual show And we basically decided what suitcases would be used on each episode based on what logic the players might use when they trying to take deals but also what value the deals should be offered. So I'm working both sides of the aisle as a mathematical advisor, actuary, or whatever you want to call it, as, okay, what is the banker going to offer players? And what are the players going to do when they're offered the money that the banker offers? And that's kind of hard. You have to make a lot of guesses, but you also have all the historical data from the original show and the versions from other countries that have happened. So in the end, I end up sharing with them, like, this is the logic I use. These are the numbers I'm using. This is what came out. And we think that based on that, the payout for the show could be anywhere from here to here with an average of this and so on. For example, the final payout in the final episode for the grand winner could be anywhere from upwards of $15 million as the maximum. Well, $15 million, Jack, and as low as one penny. Oh, boy. Because that's deal or no deal. You've got to have that as a possibility. If the player is too much of a dumbass or if they burn through all of the high numbers on the board, it could be a problem. Well, deal or no deal is interesting in the way that, yeah, everyone can go up and down and up and down. And I don't know if there's a banker making deals like in the original show, but there is okay. That is always a little more unique because, you know, when you were on Millionaire, you had points along the way where you can say, I can stop and I can take that guaranteed money. And even though the grand prize is a million, okay, you know what? I'm happy with this amount of money. And so as a producer of the TV show, you want the maximum excitement. Like again, if 15 million is up on the board there, you want to see people have a shot at that as opposed to they're just going to take a smaller amount and walk away because that smaller amount, whether it's 100,000, 500,000, that's a lot of money to people. So it's one thing about the probabilities, but it's also about the characters of the people. Like, what is their happy zone? I mean, they came with nothing. Do they try to get it all, or are they just, oh, you know what? That helps pay the mortgage or puts my kid through school. Yeah, and that's what makes that show compelling to watch. It also makes it compelling for a home viewer to say, oh, my God, they're not taking that deal. I would have taken that deal and just put themselves in the shoes of the contestant in that moment. But the show is going to be really interesting. And one aspect that they've advertised but haven't talked about very much is that the person playing Deal or No Deal in each episode is actually playing for their life in the show. And the way it works is that if the player makes a bad deal, they are eliminated. So let's say that their personal case holds $100,000 and the show offers them $150,000 and they take the deal. That's good. They beat their case. But if the show offered them $70,000 and they took a deal, then they open their personal case and says, oh, there's $100,000 here. That's a bad deal. Anyone who makes a bad deal is immediately eliminated from the show. On the flip side, anyone who makes a good deal gets to handpick someone else to be eliminated. Oh, the deceit. The alliances. There's no voting. There's no survivor-style voting. it is someone will be put into the game by what happened to the challenges, and then that person who gets put into the game either dies or kills someone else. I am looking forward to this. It's less than a month away. Yeah, it's going to be good. So when are you going to put together some form of deal or no deal island pinball tournaments? When's it happening?
    31:06
    Where we can, oh my, could you imagine where you could throw somebody out He had someone local to me, Chris Burnett, ran an amazing race pinball tournament last month that I really wanted to attend. I had a conflict. They are so fun. But it even included fast forwards and detours and roadblocks. Oh, boy. So he went whole hog into trying to make the tournament play like a real episode of Amazing Race would. you could arrive at a machine and put up a good score and then say, well, this person wrote down your name. You're going to have to go back and play the other machine and try not to get last on that one either. You know, we mentioned Pinnberg moments ago, and I think of John Replogle, who was a big part of Pinnberg for so much, and the dojo and all that good stuff there. We've seen him play fishtails in the middle of a river. So if you have the amazing race and you want to be like the show, So they've got to get a pinball machine some way, somehow, on a high wire. That would be awesome. You're afraid of heights. You're playing. Oh, my God. It would have to be a circus voltaire. Sure. What about Earthshaker? Something like that? Just the little trembles you've got up there? You're going to get high wire multi-ball. Yeah, yeah, you're right.
    32:26
    Yeah, Earthshaker. I can't talk about Earthshaker while being in Los Angeles. Yes. So while we were at InDisc, there was a, I don't know, 4.2 on the Richter scale earthquake. I didn't feel it. I guess it was on stream, and maybe you can see some vibrations, but did you feel it? I did actually feel it, but I didn't think it was an earthquake. Okay. I was just like, oh, that feels weird. It was a moving truck out back or something. Right, something like that. And then, like, yeah, I felt it too. I have never felt any major earthquakes, but things in that 4.5 range are a little weird because you just kind of feel jostled. But I'm old, so maybe I just fell over a little bit. I'm right there with you. And I know you have to actually fly back east right now. And I thank you for coming on the program, a busy guy as always. And I'm sure I will see you soon. And, again, thanks for the wonderful work on Barrels of Fun and everything else you do. I mentioned the provincials and state finals. I'm sure I wasn't alone watching your tutorial videos because they are timeless. and someday hope to see more. Thanks. We just put out a video on Genesis onto the Papa channel within the last month and we have another tutorial on Valley Game Show that we put up within another month or so and we're filming more. So we are working on more tutorials with Tai Ueda and his equipment as well as the local places like Cosmic Cottage and others in New England that have offered their space for us to film. It's been great. That is great. And I know I saw some recently with, I don't know, Backhand Pinball and some others. There's a lot of good work and a lot of good streamers out there, and we appreciate you doing that. Okay, quickly, Genesis. I can't let you go without talking about one of my all-time favorite games. I only shoot the orbits, the ones that are lit, until I'm ready to start multiball. And then when I get into multiball, I'm banging that very target. Am I doing it right? I don't know. Aw. I think that what you're doing is very good for generating high scores, but it puts you at a heavy risk of getting a low score. It's not a good match play strategy. It's not a match play strategy. For match play, I would concentrate on the ramps and getting into some multi-ball so that you can get something going at 2x, 4x, whatever, and then only concentrating on the orbits when you really are running out of those parts you need. You also can get body parts by completing one, two, three in the middle of the drops. Ooh, dangerous though. Or what you said, the very target, especially in lane very target up to that thing, a big hit is a big value. But not every Genesis can make that shot happen. Yeah, and I'm looking forward to that video. I love, love, love Genesis. Yeah, it's up there. We got Mr. Bill out during the video.
    35:16
    All right, Bowen, I'll let you go. Thank you very much, and safe travels. See you soon. terrific talking with you Jeff thank you this has been your pinball profile you can find everything on pinballprofile.com we're on Instagram we're even on X and we are on Facebook email pinballprofile at gmail.com and if you'd like to show your support on Patreon that would be wonderful patreon.com slash pinball profile thank you to Lua W to Cliff A to Derek K GME Law and others hope you enjoyed our conversation with Bowen Cairns I'm Jeff Teal
    35:50
    I feel good.