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The Pinball Show Ep 195: Dungeon Crawler Carl & Bon Jovi Releases

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·2h 37m·analyzed·Jul 30, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.023

TL;DR

Stern production mystery, JJP Sonic logistics, Multimorphic dual launch, Flip N Out partnership

Summary

The The Pinball Show 195 discusses Stern Pinball mysterious production schedule with no backorders (raising layoff rumors), Jersey Jack Pinball shipping prioritization toward locations, and Multimorphic's dual release of Dungeon Crawler Carl and Ender's Game. Hosts Zach Minney and guest Dennis Creasel also announce Flip N Flip N Out Pinball new distributor partnership with Multimorphic, field community reactions to their partnership video, and debate the commercial viability of launching two games simultaneously.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pinball has zero backorders for the first time in years, with no games scheduled for production in the coming weeks

    high confidence · Zach Minney, distributor perspective: 'I can't tell you, Dennis, the last time that I didn't have any games backorder at Stern Pinball... I don't have anything on backorder at Stern. That never really happened.'

  • Rumors are circulating about possible layoffs at Stern Pinball

    medium confidence · Zach Minney: 'There are rumors swirling that layoffs are coming at Stern.' Dennis Creasel notes this as first hearing of it.

  • Pokemon code updates are responsible for the game's current sales resurgence

    medium confidence · Zach Minney: 'I had new sales up front. Again, my spies tell me that Pokemon is flying off the shelves now... I think the state of the code is probably chiefly responsible'

  • Stern's October production schedule is completely booked with six different game/edition combinations

    high confidence · Zach Minney lists: 'Come October, we have James Bond 007 (Pro) and Premium, JAWS (Pro) and Premium, King Kong and Premium, Metallica Metallica Remastered (Premium/LE), and Pokémon (Pro).'

  • Jersey Jack Pinball is prioritizing location/arcade distribution of Sonic games over dealer home collections

    high confidence · Zach Minney: 'JJB has been shipping out... they've been prioritizing trying to send us dealers those location games... They were trying to send five rather than focused on, well, he's got 300.'

  • Multimorphic has eight game kits and nine if counting third-party releases

    high confidence · Zach Minney: 'They have eight game kits and nine if you count third party game kits because they had drained.'

  • Flip N Out Pinball began partnership discussions with Multimorphic in February 2026

    high confidence · Zach Minney: 'we struck a partnership that we've been working on discussing with Multimorphic since February, I think. February was our first sit-down meetings'

  • Dungeon Crawler Carl is popular with audiences that can afford to buy pinball machines, targeting a more affluent demographic than traditionally expected

Notable Quotes

  • “I can't tell you, Dennis, the last time that I didn't have any games backorder at Stern Pinball. You know how it is. Like, you always have something backorder because they're not going to make something for another couple months.”

    Zach Minney @ early episode — Reveals unprecedented production anomaly at Stern suggesting major operational changes or potential layoffs

  • “There are rumors swirling that layoffs are coming at Stern.”

    Zach Minney @ early episode — First public mention of layoff rumors in industry coverage; significant if confirmed

  • “My spies tell me that Pokemon is flying off the shelves now. I'll tell you that. And I think the state of the code is probably chiefly responsible”

    Zach Minney @ mid episode — Confirms code quality as critical driver of Pokemon's market performance post-launch

  • “Multimorphic have been nothing short of fantastic the entire time. So it's been great discussing what each company can do in a partnership”

    Zach Minney @ mid episode — Positive endorsement of partnership experience, addresses potential credibility concerns about distributor-manufacturer relationship

  • “Portal came along. Again, a theme that did nothing for me. But damn, it was cool. And say what you want about the system or anything, the damn game was cool.”

    Zach Minney @ mid episode — Explains narrative arc of distributor's shift toward Multimorphic; themes and game quality as conversion drivers

  • “Texas Chainsaw ended up with the leg up because people think it's a better rule set. And so even if they like Looney Tunes more, Texas is a better game because the rules are better.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ late episode — Highlights risk of dual-launch cannibalization; rule set quality drives collector/player preference regardless of theme affinity

  • “I would say that Enders looks barren to me, and I don't think it's going to sell well after seeing it.”

    [name withheld pending review] — Negative visual assessment of Ender's Game playfield density; early concern about comparative disadvantage vs. Dungeon Crawler Carl

Entities

Zach Minneyperson[name withheld pending review]personStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyMultimorphiccompanyFlip N Out PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyPokemongame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern Pinball has zero backorders and no visible production schedule for coming weeks—unprecedented in distributor's multi-year relationship, suggesting potential facility shutdown, line reconfiguration, or workforce reduction

    high · Zach Minney: 'I can't tell you, Dennis, the last time that I didn't have any games backorder at Stern Pinball... I don't have anything on backorder at Stern. That never really happened.'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Layoff rumors circulating regarding Stern Pinball workforce; unconfirmed but emerging in industry gossip channels

    medium · Zach Minney: 'There are rumors swirling that layoffs are coming at Stern.'

  • ?

    code_update: Pokemon's code quality improvements driving measurable sales resurgence after initial plateau; code state cited as 'chiefly responsible' for renewed demand

    medium · Zach Minney: 'my spies tell me that Pokemon is flying off the shelves now... I think the state of the code is probably chiefly responsible'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern's October production schedule is completely booked with six title/edition combinations (James Bond Pro/Premium, Jaws Pro/Premium, King Kong Pro/Premium, Metallica Remastered Premium, Pokemon Pro), leaving no production capacity for new releases in that month

    high · Zach Minney comprehensive October schedule listing

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball shifted Sonic distribution strategy to prioritize arcade/location placements over home collector backorders, dynamically adjusting shipments weekly/biweekly between arcade, SE, and CE models

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.105

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:13
Episode 195 of The Pinball Show. Dennis Creasel is here, ladies and gentlemen. A round of applause for Dennis Creasel. Such a wonderful, magnificent, beautiful man. A specimen, if you will. Look at you all decked out. I'm Zach Manny. We're the hosts of this fine program. We've been gone a little bit, but we're back with a lot of a lot of stuff. Been a little bit. Been a lot of trauma out there. Trauma and drama, baby. That's right. Trauma. What kind of trauma? Didn't you have a flood? The great flood. That's why we missed two episodes ago was the flood. We were. The great flood. The great flood. I'm remodeling my basement and woke up to inches of water.
0:57
But thankfully, perfect timing. If your basement's going to flood, how about doing it before you remodel? So we were still in demo mode.
1:08
But yeah, I couldn't be like, hey Nicole, deal with it yourself. I've got to record the pinball show. Yeah, it didn't work. So I had to help out. I felt like a sailor down there trying to get water out of my boat.
1:24
You had a vacation after that. Went to Alaska. What a beautiful country there in Alaska. It feels like its own thing up there.
1:35

medium confidence · Zach Minney: 'Dungeon Crawler Carl is popular with an audience that can buy pinball... it's not like targeting 16-year-olds.'

  • Spooky's previous two-game simultaneous launch strategy (Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes) resulted in one game (Texas Chainsaw) having superior rule set and better market performance

    medium confidence · Dennis Creasel: 'Texas Chainsaw ended up with the leg up because people think it's a better rule set... Texas is a better game because the rules are better.'

  • Ender's Game lacks visual density compared to Dungeon Crawler Carl based on promotional imagery

    medium confidence · Dennis Creasel: 'I would say that Enders looks barren to me, and I don't think it's going to sell well after seeing it. Because it has a comparison?'

    • @ late episode

  • “Some podcasts are saying on extorting people and contributing fraud. Some podcasts say, oh, my God, this is the greatest thing since Pepper's Farms.”

    Zach Minney @ mid episode — Reveals extreme polarization in community response to Flip N Out/Multimorphic partnership announcement

  • “They were trying to send five rather than focused on, well, he's got 300, you know. So they're trying to get those on location, which is, it was interesting to see them change up that rapidly.”

    Zach Minney @ mid episode — Demonstrates JJP's strategic shift toward location/operator prioritization; potential conflict with home collector expectations

  • “I just really like the feel of that game. It's fine that it sold great at the start, but this is stern. I don't think they just assume everything sells the same level.”

    Zach Minney @ mid episode — Suggests Pokemon's initial sales spike may have surprised even Stern; indicates recalibration of expectations

    • Sonic
    game
    Transformersgame
    John Wickgame
    Godzillagame
    Dungeon Crawler Carlgame
    Ender's Gamegame
    Back to the Futuregame
    Portalgame
    Texas Chainsaw Massacregame
    Looney Tunesgame
    James Bondgame
    Jawsgame
    King Konggame
    Metallica Remasteredgame
    Star Wars: Fall of the Empiregame
    D&Dgame
    Venomgame

    high · Zach Minney: 'they've been prioritizing trying to send us dealers those location games... They were trying to send five rather than focused on, well, he's got 300'

  • ?

    business_signal: Flip N Out Pinball formalized distributor partnership with Multimorphic starting February 2026; motivated by customer demand and business opportunity; generated significant community reaction (both positive and critical) including parody response from Spooky Pinball

    high · Zach Minney: 'we struck a partnership that we've been working on discussing with Multimorphic since February'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Multimorphic launched Dungeon Crawler Carl and Ender's Game simultaneously using same underlying mechanisms but independent rule sets; mirrors Spooky's previous dual-launch strategy with mixed results

    high · Zach Minney: 'They launched Dungeon Crawler Carl and another game at the same time. Two games'

  • ?

    community_signal: Flip N Out/Multimorphic partnership announcement video generated extreme community polarization ranging from accusations of 'fraud' to 'greatest thing since Pepper's Farms'; parody response from Spooky indicates industry-wide attention and mixed sentiment

    medium · Zach Minney: 'Some podcasts are saying on extorting people and contributing fraud. Some podcasts say, oh, my God, this is the greatest thing since Pepper's Farms'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Historical precedent (Spooky: Texas Chainsaw vs. Looney Tunes) shows simultaneous dual-launches risk rule set quality disparity driving player preference independent of theme affinity; Texas Chainsaw maintained sales edge despite potential theme disadvantage due to superior rules

    medium · Dennis Creasel: 'Texas Chainsaw ended up with the leg up because people think it's a better rule set... even if they like Looney Tunes more, Texas is a better game because the rules are better'

  • ?

    product_concern: Ender's Game playfield lacks visual density compared to Dungeon Crawler Carl based on early promotional imagery; potential market disadvantage in direct comparison scenario

    medium · Dennis Creasel: 'I would say that Enders looks barren to me, and I don't think it's going to sell well after seeing it'

  • $

    market_signal: Pokemon positioned as potential long-tail market performer and possible displacement candidate for Godzilla's #1 ranking if code improvements continue; initial sales exceeded expectations but demand may normalize

    medium · Zach Minney: 'I think they thought this was going to displace Godzilla... If they get the code up there, it could'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Elliot Eisman's design work on John Wick credited with creating market resurgence after initial weak launch; suggests design quality and player experience improvements driving sentiment recovery

    medium · Zach Minney: 'John Wick had a nice little resurgence now, I guess, is the Elliot Eismin effect?'

    • Canada went there. Vancouver. That was cool. That's like the fancy part of Canada. Is it? I read it was like the L.A. of Canada. That makes sense. It felt like a hippie version of a wilderness place. I've also seen it called the San Francisco of Canada. Yeah. So that would align with the hippiness even more. It felt like that. Love that place. Canada. Boy, they've got some great people up there. Not the cyclists as much, but everybody besides the cyclists. Those cyclists can eat dirt, man. Well, not all of them. I don't want to broad stroke the cyclist thing. I don't want to do that. We about got killed by a cyclist in Vancouver because I didn't know the rules.
    2:26
    It was a different country. I didn't know if they were on a different side of the road. They weren't, so that was good. But we've got two, three game releases. How many? I mean, finally. You know what? It is 2026, as I like to call it, not the year of Trough Jam because we didn't miss anything, but we missed Sonic's official reveal. That's all that's been missed up until now, perfect timing for these upcoming releases. Seems like a huge year to me. We've got Pokemon, we've got Sonic, we've got, what was at the beginning of the year? How are those achievements coming in Pokemon?
    3:04
    Pokedex. How's that going, Zach? I was hoping they'd announce at Comic-Con that Pokemon Pinball announced.
    3:16
    Hey, we've got a topper. That's it. Yeah, we've got a Magikarp. Right now, everybody's like Transformers.
    3:26
    They keep on rolling out like the greatest updates ever. So everybody has just fallen so deeply in love with Transformers. It's almost like while we're waiting on Pokemon approvals, it's like, Keep throwing everything we've got at Transformers. What's that? They love it. Great. Give them accessories. So we have accessories now.
    3:48
    That game, have you got a chance to play Transformers yet? No. No, I have to look actually and see if we might even have it on location here. Okay. I hadn't seen an announcement, but I may have just missed it. Usually we get them quick. It's been the hot seller right now is Transformers. Now that people have played it and stuff, because it kind of stumbled and bumbled out of the gate, and we discussed that, but now, as I called it, I knew that one would, once people played it and stuff, that people are going great. And that and John Wick, for whatever reason, John Wick had a nice little resurgence now, I guess, is the Elliot Eisman effect? Is that maybe that's what we're calling something that has a has a little bit of a not an initial boom, but it's got a tail. Does Elliot Eisenman have a tail? I mean, physically, no, like on Shallow Howl, Jason Alexander. Oh, my God. That reference just jumped out of my brain. I think it's true. I think Shallow Howl was the Jack Black flick, the Farrelly brothers, where Jason Alexander played a character. That had a physical little nubby tail because tailbone was too long. And so Elliot Eisenman, I'm asking, do you have a nubby tail? I don't think he listens to this show. You don't think he's a fan, huh? Maybe not. Yeah, no, I don't. But I also assume none of the designers listen to us. You know who I'm a fan of? Serm Pinball. But we're going to talk about the releases. But, you know, first we got to, there's been some changes in the scheduling of Stern Pinball. And I think it would be we need to discuss them. The past couple of weeks, they've been making Transformers Premium and LEs. They had a little bit of a, I guess, a parts delay for the LEs. So they were making Transformers Premiums. They even threw in Godzilla Premiums recently to make those again because a lot of dealers were needing some. So I think they're pretty much done with all the Transformers LEs. Maybe they're still making some Premiums right now. Now, here's the kicker, though, viewer. The next couple of weeks over at Stern Pinball, you guess what they're making? I have no clue.
    6:02
    Now, how many years have we been doing this? For the most part, I know what they're making next week. I don't know. Here's the other odd thing. Not that I want to turn this into a controversy within the hobby. I can't tell you, Dennis, the last time that I didn't have any games backorder at Stern Pinball. You know how it is. Like, you always have something backorder because they're not going to make something for another couple months. You've got these. You've been waiting for them. You know, and one of my larger backorders had almost a truck full of Godzilla premiums, but they delivered those last week. So what I'm saying is I don't have anything on backorder at Stern. That never really happened.
    6:52
    Could the line be idle? I have no clue. It's kind of odd. And what does that mean? I don't know what it means. There are rumors. There are always rumors. But there are rumors swirling that layoffs are coming at Stern. Oh!
    7:06
    Really? That was the first I heard about that. Interesting. Me and Pepperidge Farm, remember. Okay. I don't know. That's rumors. Who knows? It's strange though. It's a weird feeling because, I mean, guys, I've been, without giving too much info, I've been hundreds of games backordered.
    7:27
    Different titles and such. Zero. I don't think I have anything backordered. If they make Black Knight Pro, I have some I told them I'd buy, but I don't know what they're going to make. But that also tells me maybe here in August, maybe we get something new from Stern Pimple. Oh, put it out there. Put it on the board.
    7:50
    Do we see an anniversary released game here in August? Probably just a vault remaster. I think remastered the last two years have come October, November. They have.
    8:03
    But I have a theory that... Anniversaries come July, August. My theory, though, is that Pokemon, they expected to have a longer tail than it did. And so while I think maybe Transformers is doing like they thought, I think maybe they thought they would be running more Pokemons, and I don't think they need to. Well, I had new sales up front. Again, my spies tell me that Pokemon is flying off the shelves now. I'll tell you that. And I think the state of the code is probably chiefly responsible, but, you know, I don't know for sure. Yeah, that is tough because they satiated the hobbyist market initially. But the operators grabbed them too. They sold so many at the launch. They probably sold so many at launch of that game than they typically do Cornerstones for an entire year. So I'm not super worried about that. And I still, I think I said it on the last episode, I still go back to that game. And that's the game that I hope they do get to the point because there's something that feels special. I don't know what it is. I just really like the feel of that game.
    9:13
    It's fine that it sold great at the start, but this is stern. I don't think they just assume everything sells the same level. They knew it would sell great, and I think they thought it would have a long tail. I think they thought this was going to displace Godzilla. Cool. If they get the code up there, it could, but we'll see. So that's why I think maybe we see something here in August, an anniversary release. Now the rumors of what they would release should be Batman 66. Should be.
    9:45
    Batman 66 was never a cornerstone. So that's a little weird to go back to that. I mean, don't get me wrong. They've done it with Elvira, which also wasn't a cornerstone, where they did special editions. Sure. Yeah, they did a 40 thing for you. But there will never be a pro version of Batman 66. So does that factor into that? Well, not really because when they did last year, they did Jaws 50th and that was just a premium only version. The year before that, they did Godzilla 70th. That was just a premium option. So I think if anything, it would be just a premium option. However, my guess would be we're going to get a Goldfinger James Bond premium anniversary option.
    10:30
    That's my guess, which will sell great too. But if given a choice, I just, I don't understand why they wouldn't have done Batman 66. I, for the life of me, doesn't make sense to me. What's the argument? The only argument that would make sense to me is we can't get the license anymore? And I say, well, why can't you get the license?
    10:52
    If they said money, I just, I don't know. It was a Kapow collaboration, though, so there's probably an added layer of complexity.
    11:03
    Yeah, maybe. It's almost like anybody not associated with... Model license is so hard to work with. But I guess all it is is a new skin of art. Art package. Probably no big deal. And a logo. So I don't know what we're going to see. Come September, though, we're going to see Godzilla Pro and Premiums again. And then at some point we're going to have a new Cornerstone, I would think.
    11:22
    Yeah, sure, we'll have a third one. And by not having any backwords right now, I'm thinking to myself, maybe we see a sooner Cornerstone. I don't know. You know the rumors are Fallout? That's the rumor. I'm holding out hope for another original trilogy of Star Wars.
    11:41
    Sign me up. I love the slow blink. The slow blink tells all. I still want that episodes one through three.
    11:53
    At least it would be different. It would at least be different. Barrels. Let's do it. I want the Sand Edition anniversary. I hate it. Oh, man. So that's in September.
    12:09
    Come October, we have James Bond Pro and Premium, Jaws Pro and Premium, King Kong Pro and Premium, Metallica Remastered Premium, and Pokemon Pro. That is their plan. So that tells me we're not going to see a damn thing in October because they're filling up the entire month with planned builds.
    12:27
    What if they drop the Cornerstone in August? Yeah, maybe they'd bump that. Could be. And then build in September. Could be. I don't know. I think if anything, maybe we see a remastered release in October and then they build them in November. Come November, they're going to make Star Wars Fall of the Empires again, Pro and Premium. December, D&D Pro, Pokemon Premium, Transformers Pro. And to add, they have now vaulted Venom. I don't think they're going to do another remaster this year. I think they're going to skip this year. Oh, okay.
    13:04
    I don't think they will, but all right. We'll see. Jerser Jack Pinball. JJB has been shipping out. I just wanted to update everybody. Shipping out all different models of Sonic. They do it so different every release, but this time around, they're trying to get everything they can to locations. So they asked dealers, hey, how many of each model do you have going to arcades or locations? We gave them the information they've been prioritizing trying to send us dealers those location games. So let's say I have 300 of a game ordered, but only five locations for a CE or something. They were trying to send five rather than focused on, well, he's got 300, you know. So they're trying to get those on location, which is, it was interesting to see them change up that rapidly. It was almost like every week or two they were jumping back and forth between arcade, SEs. SEs were the newest batch that they're trying to get to locations, or the special edition. And then CEs, they started with those. I anticipate them going back to those fairly soon because they're kind of leaving the CE people in the dust right now. Now, they've shipped a lot of the other models, but they're due for a big run. I would think it's CEs if they have the parts.
    14:24
    Speaking of Sonic, we didn't get to cover it, like I said. We didn't get to go fast. We talked about some of the leaked stuff, but I'd like to go over that a little bit. And people want to hear your take, Dennis.
    14:41
    They don't want to hear my take. But we can do that exclusively on our Patreon club membership, patreon.com slash the pinball show. Sign up and you'll go over our reactions, maybe some behind the scenes things, our experience with the game, whether we like it, whether we don't, what the sales are doing now that we're a month or so past. How that all is going down. Do you think people will be surprised by your take? Probably not. No. Okay.
    15:13
    Do you say Robotnik or Eggman? I've done both. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. It kind of depends on the context. So, like, when talking about the movies, I say Robotnik. Eggman sometimes wins the video games. I see.
    15:31
    Do you play any of those games still? I never played very many Sonic games. Wow. I never owned a Sega system, so. Oh. That is heartbreaking. That's heartbreaking. Some of us had Nintendo instead.
    15:48
    Well, Nintendon't. Yeah. I see it. Mm-hmm. Well, that was their so edgy, that was the 90s with the edgy ad campaign. Take it!
    16:00
    That's right. Nintendos are for grandmas. That's a baby game where you don't want any blood, where Mortal Kombat has to show sweat when you get a baby. Oh my gosh, remember that? Man, that was good. It was like when you were drinking Surge. Do you remember Surge? Yes, I remember. That yellow-orange liquid that pissed out yellow and orange, and you thought you had a kidney problem. Mom, my pee is green. It was bad. Okay. Oh, Surge. So, yeah, go to PaceRound.com slash ThePinballShow, and we'll get into that. And, yeah, I've heard content creators having different takes on Sonic, so we'll discuss that as well.
    16:51
    It's time to talk about a new release. Wow. It's multimorphic time. It's morphin' time. Let's go on with that. A little morbin' time. I'm doing a little Morbius reference. That's right. That's what I was doing. I was trying to. Okay. Okay. I thought maybe you were Mighty Morphin Power Ranger-ing it. Mighty McMorphic Power Ranger. I never saw a Mighty Morphin Power Ranger, so I don't know anything about it. You don't watch that either? No.
    17:24
    You were too busy watching the 10 Don't. That's so mean. I wish you were nice like me. With their P3 system. Now, for years, I know I have been a fan of this system and this platform.
    17:42
    I've kind of put my neck out there for this company. I really believe that they were kind of where it was at. It's just it feels like the rest of the community kind of late to the party. I'm not going to bust your balls too much, but, you know, some of us called it from the beginning. And some are late to the party. Welcome, though. Welcome. All you haters out there, negative people, what was and always will be Multimorphic. So Multimorphic has the P3 system, this modular system, almost like a video game where you put different game consoles into the back. Third, and they've had, I don't know how many releases, countless releases. They're probably like 19. They are countable. I mean, it is finite.
    18:29
    I don't know how many modules I have. Six? Seven? I mean, I don't know. I haven't counted. They probably stay on their website. That probably does, but it's more natural. They probably know.
    18:43
    Like when they try and sell their product, they probably go, do you know how many modules you can fit in this bad boy? Do you slap to the side of the magnetic decal? That's one. They have ten. One, two, three.
    18:58
    Ten. That's double digit. No, they don't have three, four, five. That's more than many consoles have games on release. They have, check this out, they have eight game kits and nine if you count third party game kits because they had drained.
    19:15
    I'm like an expert when it comes to multimorphic now. You know how many people are rolling their eyes at this whole discussion so far? We'll get to the goods. We'll get to the goods, guys. Where they're going, they won't need eyes to see it.
    19:27
    I don't think we'll ever see that game ever come out. Probably not now that Sam's not with us. Barrels, Spooky, JJP, Stern, Call Universal.
    19:41
    Seems like that Back to the Future license is burning as we speak. They have more people falling apart at that company. I think another person left. It's going to be one guy with a hammer putting together DeLoreans on a place field with a nail. Don't buy it because this license is huge. I love how you think they have the DeLorean. That's right.
    20:07
    It's clock towers. Maybe they got the rights to use the likeness of Einstein, the dog. The Pontiac Fiero that's shaped. It's like a kick. I still, if I had the skill, talent, and funding to homebrew, I would do a homebrew Back to the Future. Soly so that I could have Marty McFly played by a russet potato in honor of the Daddy East version.
    20:36
    Just be in his outfit, little potato, going around with his little hat. Making out with his potato mom. Oh, yeah. Well, that's a weird. I had to explain it to the kids when I showed them that movie.
    20:51
    So this was the answer. But they're not doing Back to the Future right now. Not yet, but maybe Jerry. I'm telling you, with this partnership, maybe we talk to Bob Gale.
    21:04
    And you can have a new innovative potato mech, like you can peel the potato or something. So first off, before we jump into Multimorphic's new releases, my company, distribution company Flippin' Out Pinball, has recently partnered up as a new distributor for Multimorphic. How about that? Oh, I hear the crowd going wild. Well, folks, get ready to hear some positive things about the upcoming releases.
    21:33
    All positive. I'll be real, and then we'll see how real Jerry will be with me. This is probably Jerry's one thing. He was like, we will see. We will see. I'm wondering, his anxiety could be, I don't know him well, so I don't know if he's grown into high blood pressure. But I know from hearing from other companies that they do tend to get nervous with what you might say on this show.
    22:07
    That's what my sources tell me. They have a whole history. Man, we've been doing this for how long, Dennis? We've been doing this for seven years or something? A long time. It's been a while. But people grow. People change.
    22:20
    Cooler heads prevail. Isn't that the term? Sure. Okay. But we struck a partnership that we've been working on discussing with Multimorphic since February, I think. February was our first sit-down meetings that we were, again, behind Pinball, behind the curtains here if you guys are interested, just kind of hashing out details what this partnership may look like.
    22:47
    And Multimorphic Group have been nothing short of fantastic the entire time. So it's been great discussing what each company can do in a partnership and it's been great. I've been loving every minute of it. And I like challenges at times. So if there was like a history and stuff, it's like, yeah, I embrace awkward. I embrace like uncomfort for people. Like it doesn't bother me. So that's been fun as well. But we're in a good place and I'm excited about it. So we did this video, and I caught the hobby by a little storm here. Did a little video announcing this, and people loved it, or some of them hated it. Some said it was really cringe.
    23:32
    Man, people were very opinionated on this little bitty video of me and Greg and Ken announcing a partnership with Multimorphing. It was wild, and it was fun making, but it was like an hour. It's like, hey, what do we do in an hour that we can just whip together to announce working with Multimorphic? Some podcasts are saying on extorting people and contributing fraud. Some podcasts say, oh, my God, this is the greatest thing since Pepper's Farms.
    24:06
    And we even had a pinball manufacturer spoof the video that we did. That's how you know it's hotness. Our friends over at Spooky Pinball were like, this opportunity is too great for us to pass up.
    24:21
    Why? And Kim and Greg, because they like busting our balls and having fun. Oh, okay. I guess. Okay. Because they're cute and that's what they do. They do cute well. Well, maybe I'll need to watch it. I saw it posted. I haven't watched it. Oh, it was great. But then some people that watched that thought that they were like being mean to us and for the people that don't like us, They were like, oh, yeah, stick it to flipping out, Spooky. Just think about that to a dynamic people. So that was fun. Do you think more people would like you and your company if you hadn't lost that turtle's hat for Joel? The beef sticks and candy? Do you think that's the source of it? I don't think it's candy. I think it's the irreplaceable turtle hat. If we were miserable, I think people would leave us alone. If we weren't happy, if we didn't do well, if we didn't treat customers great, if we didn't excel, people just like to shit on what they're insecure about. I don't know.
    25:26
    Multimorphic launches. So I'm going to give myself props here. I liked kind of from a business standpoint because people are like, how are you going to explain your history with multimorphic And the opinions you've said publicly to selling their product now. And I want to at least address that because I don't want to like glaze over or anything.
    25:49
    So what I would say is for people that are really worried about that, first off, why do you care? Second, if you are worried about that, use your brain. Why might somebody want to go that sells products might want to sell more products?
    26:04
    There's your answer. Very simple. But the meat of it is I was pretty intrigued by Portal. I'm not going to lie. We've talked about this. It's like, go back. Anybody can go back. I welcome you to that. And here are all my takes on Portal.
    26:27
    That was kind of a turning point for me. Like Princess Bride, I liked that they got a theme that really kind of made sense to pinball people and the nostalgia there. And it was a witty movie. It just didn't land for me because I just never really watched that movie growing up. But I liked where they were going. So I was like, that's the type of theme that I think people want in pinball. But it just didn't hit for me. Portal came along. Again, a theme that did nothing for me. But damn, it was cool. And say what you want about the system or anything, the damn game was cool. So I kind of was really paying attention after that. So February I reached out and I'm like, I, and we've had so many customers that want a P3 machine and like, hey, I ended up going with somebody else because I buy everything from you, but I, you know, you guys don't sell that. So I thought, I'm a businessman. I have people want it. I get my customers are buying everything besides that. I owe it to them to at least look into what it would look like representing and selling their products. That's just business, people, just business. So we started that in February. And I'm giving myself credit because I didn't know anything about them having a dungeon crawler. Carl knew nothing about that. But I wanted to see about a partnership prior to that. Now, as luck would have it, my planning and prognostication turned out great because we got in before a theme that absolutely tickles my cojones.
    28:10
    It was cojones. What is that in Spanish? I know it's used for testicles or balls. Is it Cajonis? I'll have to look it up. How do you spell Cajonis? Oh, it's a J. It's C-O-J-O. It's like C-Co-Jones is how you would spell it. What's it for? I thought it was a Spanish. It's literally testicles. Oh, okay. That's perfect. It's my little pinballs. So yeah, this, and we've talked about what is a dungeon crawler. Carl, this theme is kind of just, I dove into this thing. I'm in the third book, so I'm not like super, but I'm, you know, I'm treading, I'm paddling, I'm loving it. So yeah, thank God. Now they have a theme that I love. I love this theme. So I was excited to hear that they had that because we all kind of thought it was barrels of fun that may have had Dungeon Crawler Carl. So we found out they had that and I was like, oh my God, even better here. So they launched, they do something different this time, Dennis. They launched Dungeon Crawler Carl and another game at the same time. Two games, their other being Ender's Game. How do you feel about them doing the whole spooky two-for-one, this little launch, going two at the same time?
    29:50
    Perplexed. Yeah, I am surprised. I don't know how to feel about it. It didn't seem to really do any favors for spooky. So the past precedence of it doesn't give me confidence with it. But on paper, it makes sense. On paper, this is something I brought up years ago. I don't think it was on this show, but I don't remember anymore. About HomePin, you know, HomePin out of China or wherever they're based nowadays.
    30:25
    Like, if you struggle with design, why not? Your whole thing is about selling a few games to a bunch of bros that want to have a few pints and knock a ball around. Why not just have one good layout and keep reusing it and just change your theme? Because you're not trying to sell to collectors. You're trying to sell one game to one family.
    30:48
    And so with Blues Brothers, which is amazingly terrible, despite the fact that they actually took a historic Stern Electronics layout, but in theory that was the idea that would have made sense. So here I knew it's funny because growing up Ender's Game was such a popular book. I would have on paper if you had told me Dungeon Crawler Caller or Ender's Game, my gut instinct would have been to say Ender's Game will sell you more games. Oh, wow. I'm not sure that's true anymore because Dungeon Crawler Carl is because because I think part of the thing that the thing is, I think Dungeon Crawler Carl is popular with an audience that can buy pinball. So even though it's new, it's not like targeting 16-year-olds. Ender's Game has nostalgia, however. So Ender's Game is stuff like that book came out like in 85. So everyone who, like in theory, the audience for that book historically, they have the money to buy things about it now. It's just Dungeon Crawler Carl is resonating really well as a series. I never read Ender's Game. A number of my friends did. I only ever heard a lot about the first game, not the entire series. There's an entire series, but the first book was always seen as the strongest. I don't think people are saying that about Dungeon Crawler Carl.
    32:07
    True. And then, you know, there's the big question of we know based off of the pinball community that there are a lot of fans of Dungeon Crawler Carl. Like people, and again, it's kind of like why do D&D? They're into the role playing, they're, you know, the video gamification that is involved in the story. Like that's all resonating. I mean, Ender's Game is like the kids I knew who read it, and I've seen the movie. I just haven't read the movie. I haven't even seen the movie. Yeah, you know, there were a lot of the gifted kids were really into it. But it's sort of a chosen child trope. Chosen child? Yeah, yeah. I mean, in fact, I think there's a trope called the chosen child trope. Okay. This is Ender. He's super special. And here's all, like, he's smarter than it. Yeah. Well, it's just, I don't know. I think it's an interesting – I probably would have really liked the book had I read it.
    33:00
    I found the movie enjoyable. I know some book fans were not huge into it, but all that to say, Zach, is I think it's fine. I'm not – I don't know if it really advantages them in any way. As long as the one thing is as long as the rule sets are able to be developed in a way that it doesn't compromise one or the other. But there's always going to be those risks of comparison because I mentioned Ultraman and Halloween when we were kind of prepping for this about using the same layout. But maybe a better example compared to this is when Spooky did the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes, where I feel, and you as a distributor may have a different perspective, I feel, though, that Texas Chainsaw ended up with the leg up because people think it's a better rule set.
    33:57
    And so even if they like Looney Tunes more, Texas is a better game because the rules are better. Now is that true or not? Again, I'm basing this off of some antidotal things that people have said. But people will naturally end up comparing these things. The aspect that I find confusing about this is, and I understand logically why, the price point on Enders versus Dungeon Crawler are very different. Very different. But if you look at the games, you're getting... Oh, I see it. Oh, I see it. Those sculpts alone are very different. In fact, I would say that Enders looks barren to me, and I don't think it's going to sell well after seeing it. Because it has a comparison? That's my lukewarm take. I think the comparison, yes. Okay. Because I was going to say it's pretty loaded down though.
    34:49
    We'll talk about all the way. Now, I haven't seen video. That's important to say. So we are viewing, this is very early on in the launch process. Dennis is viewing the pictures, the official pictures of these games. We've not seen the video portion. I've seen the video portion of this game, of both games actually, as a dealer, but I don't have access to that or anything. So he's not been able to see it. And we'll talk through some of that stuff here. They are two completely different independent games. That was emphasized. Both happen to be based on the same underlying mechanisms, but they're totally different. Different teams on each game too. Each game kit comes fully decorated for that theme. Each game kit includes an extension module.
    35:41
    Remember on Portal, they had the option. Do you want the extended game or do you want the regular standard game where the extended game was something coming down over the LCD play field area? This, there is no option. The extended portion goes with the game kit. It is crucial for each of these games.
    36:01
    Dungeon Crawler Carl, yeah, it has more sculpts and different things, so the price is more. They did get, they got a number of new people that, they got freaking Davey Price of the Stumbler Pinball, arguably the best mod maker in the entire industry, partnered up with him for this game. And that's incredible because if you built anything for this game, every buyer would have bought them anyway. So now they've got them. They've already got them built in.
    36:33
    The sculpts aren't optional either. Like they're, they come with the game. They're not doing different. I don't think they're doing different. Like Princess Bride had a limited edition, a collector's edition, a weird owl had an L. They're not, I think they're just doing each as its own, its own thing. Oh, a lot of people were asking, well, if I bought Dungeon Crawler Carl, can I still buy the software for Ender's game since they have the same layout and everything and just play it? No, just play the second game without looking like it. No, just for licensing alone. That licensure of each is not going to want another thing played on their environment. That doesn't make any sense. So no, if you want to play both games, you have to buy. Hey, why should they care? Why can't we be creative? I don't like it. I do. I don't like it as just any type of creator. I wouldn't want something on top of my skinned over the top. I don't know. I don't like it. It makes sense to me.
    37:34
    Now, that doesn't mean there aren't discussions trying to make that happen behind the scenes, but don't get your hopes up. That's not a thing right now.
    37:45
    Okay. Can we get into Dungeon Crawler, Carl? I'm going to admit, I've not seen Ender's Game movie. I've not read the books. I don't know much about it. Well, the arts, clearly, it's not the movie they're doing the books, which is probably smart. I don't recall the movie doing very well. Oh, my God. It's a stunning-looking game. We'll talk about that. But more than that, I don't really. Not compared to Dungeon Crawler Carl. Dude, Dungeon Crawler Carl is fucking great. This thing looks really good. It looks so cool. So the content, and we'll give you a little background, the content of this game is entirely based on the books by Matt Denman. Audio book lines, the newly recorded lines, all from Jeff Hayes, who any fan of Dungeon Crawler Carl just loves Jeff Hayes. He does all the audio on the audio books. How does a book become so audio bookified that it almost has to be listened to rather than read?
    38:49
    I don't know books enough. Does this happen in literature? I know people that prefer audio books because of the narration, the storyteller. The voices are done. Okay. You know. But, I mean, I still think the main driving factor to audiobooks is just the fact that you can do something else. Absolutely. It's the same thing with, like, why do so many people listen to this and not watch it on YouTube? Because you have to watch it. Why wouldn't you watch it? Well and there nothing to see as part of the frustration because we not it not like we have really cool animations and stuff happening constantly It just like that why podcasts became a thing is people were able to do them when their eyes needed to not be distracted
    39:39
    They go on to say that when describing this theme for pinball anyway, for the theme, the author Matt Denman has suggested that the appropriate age for the books is 15 plus. So historically, Jerry and Multimorphic have tried to have some family friendly titles. I think that's fair to say. This, this is not family friendly. This is the option. This is like more Rick and Morty type of. Now, there is the option to bleep out the cursing and the bad language, but it's still very much a mature experience. There's a ton of, and if you guys haven't seen the trailer yet, just play the official trailer. I can't even believe they were able to run with the stuff in the trailer that they said.
    40:28
    I think at one point, here's what sold me on this. Anytime my pinball machine can make me smile because one of the call outs is telling someone to eat a bag of dicks. Viewer, I'm in. I'm in. None of my other pinball machines tell anybody to eat a bag of dicks, but it's a term of endearment that I would have loved to have said to a lot of people in this industry alone. But in general, and it did that for me, and it says Glerb Glerb. It's got Glerb Glerb. I have a Glerb Glerb sticker for my water bottle. I just, and bros, like it's just, it's so good. All right, what else? So yeah, they, you're getting what you expected for Dungeon Crawler Carl.
    41:26
    Also to note that a lot of people are not going to be seeing a topper on DCC and they're like, wait a minute. They do have one in the works. So it's going to be revealed at a later time, but they have one in the works. Let's talk about who's making this game. Creative directors, Stephen Silver and Ian Harrower. So creative directors team there. Rules, Wesley Johnson. Mechanicals, TJ Weaver and Trey Jones. Voices by Jeff Hayes, the narrator of the audiobooks. Music and sound design, Matt Kern. Software, Ian Harrower, Josh Kugler and Michael Ocean. The whole team there. Cabinet artists, Luciano Fletus. Is that how you'd say that? But I'm not sure. The most important thing is it's the book cover artist that people. So this is this looks and sounds like Dungeon Crawler Carl because it's using the same people who have visually and auditorily represented this license. Arguably, you can't get anybody better for these jobs.
    42:25
    Playfield artist, Brad Albright. So there is some Brad Albright of Winchester Mystery House fame that we all love so much. And he did Portal 2. So people love the Brad Albright stuff now. He's in this helping with the additional visuals on this game. Art Direction, Steven Silver and Brad Albright. Sculpts by Sumbler Pinball. Oh, thank you. Digital Assets by Renegade Game Studios. Not familiar. Animations by Steven Silver and Ian Harrower. Special thanks to Playmates Toys. Let's talk about artwork.
    43:03
    We'll go through this quick, but artwork. First visual take on seeing the art of this game. I love that cabinet art. Love it.
    43:15
    It reminds me of the books, as it should. It is the same style, but I'll even, I think some of the books, I hate to, I don't want to hate on the illustrator, But some of the audiobook covers, Luciano, eh, eh, they're good, but nothing. I think they did a better job on this cabinet or this pinball machine than they have the book covers. Am I crazy? I truly... I haven't looked enough at the book covers. I do like that it looks like the book. I think it was the smart play. Yeah. I think the game looks very nice with the composition and such. The translate looks pretty basic. Yeah, that's the part where I'm not, you know, it's your standard montage, which is fine. But I think one of the things I like is because you've got this cover artist doing the sides of the game. It does not look like that oversaturated style that we have come to associate with pinball now where the purples are extra purpley and everything is just like literally there's a saturation slider that you have in these programs and you just crank it all the way up. And this actually feels, there's a lot of browns, deeper colors, but earth tones. Warmer oranges. Well, more on the right side of the cabinet than that. I mean, there's a light purple creature thing on the left. But my point is, like, it feels like it's the color scheme. I'm going to use the word more realistic, a little less comic. Maybe that's a better way to say it. It doesn't feel like it's a comic strip. It feels like it's meant to be in a lived-in world. It reminded me of the more vibrant Rob Zombie. Remember how people loved the artwork on Rob Zombie's? And I did like Rob Zombie's. I don't like anything else about that game, but Rob Zombie's art package was really good. So it kind of reminded me of the illustrations there. Not the play field, but the cab and the trans. That had a great trans light, too. Dude, the freaking left side of that cabinet, the action sequence of Carl on the motorcycle with Donut in the side, Like with that monster.
    45:23
    Yep. Come on. That's amazing. And I love that both sides of the cabinet are different. Different art on both sides.
    45:32
    That's cool too. It's quirky and cool. I do love the artwork on this game. Now keep in mind, people. Keep in mind that remember whenever you buy these games, if you already have a P3 gaming unit system, You just have to buy the module to put in this game. And that is technically cheaper than, or no, if you buy it with the P3 game, the module is cheaper than not. But if you're buying that module, you're still going to probably want to buy the packaged magnetic art that goes with it too. So there's always that. You don't have to have it, but if you want the module alone to play it with Weird Al art, that's fine too if it's going to be pressed up against different games. Right. Now play field wise, the sculpts do a heavy lift here. They look great. Yes. Like the whole kind of stony background for the dungeon aspects, the three-dimensional aspects to it up at the very back of the play field. So I did notice in the stills, and I will confirm with other games, this is very much true in real life. If you've never played one, try and play one of these at a show if you can get to a show where they have P3s. But there's an attempt. I like that at least, again, I'm looking from stills. From the stills, they've learned from the, what was it, Final Resistance from Scott DeNisi that, Hey, instead of being really busy with our screen, we need to make it look more like a traditional layout.
    47:13
    Which is good because you start trying to animate everything and your inability to fund a full-featured video game animation starts to shine through. But unfortunately, even in the stills, I can still tell how washed out the screen looks versus the back when all of a sudden the stickers or the physical art comes into play. And it's notable. They weren't. And I think the photos were reasonably well done. I think that's just reality. It's been reality on every game I've played. So that washed out look to the lower two thirds remains as a as I say, maybe a minor ding. But it is thematically consistent with what it connects to in the back, which is the important thing. I do think that's been one of our criticisms. Heavy, heavy criticisms is what Dennis was saying. Trying to pull in enough animation resources to match what else you're doing physically with a pinball machine. That has been a very tall task. So I agree with you. I love whenever they lean into using that to the best way they can. An LCD screen that still feels like a regular play field. They don't have to overdo it. They can make it look inserts. They can make inserts there. I've said that to Jerry even historically when we went back and forth. Make it look like a damn play field. Do cool stuff with these simulated inserts. Lifting the inserts up, having creatures crawl under the inserts. Like, that's your bread and butter. That's where we want it to be. And we see even in a top-down pick of Dungeon Crawler Carl, him doing exactly that. And I hope they continue leaning into that. I think they will. I think they've learned as they went along. If you go back and play Lexi Lightspeed, it feels like you're shooting a phone game. Yes, it does. And at the time it was different and cool, but the inability to put in big money starts to become very... And not even Stern could... No. Look at... When we talk about King Kong and its custom animations and how janky that looks. Remember Turtle. Godzilla where you're just straight up taking clips. That's why everyone wants to take from the movies. He's like that's, you know, Multimorphic knew that with Princess Bride where you've got like all this movie stuff. Fill it up. Playfield, the playfield still pretty much stayed like a fairly static looking thing and I think that's smart. It's comforting. It's comfortable for pinball people to approach this. The one thing they have now that helps me get behind what they're doing nowadays, they have an artist. They have a really good artist in Brad Albright that is, I mean you can see he's doing some of the art stills that they're using in the animation on the LCD screen, which then integrates well into the plastics and different things in the upper play field decal that he does. So it meshes a heck of a lot better than some of the games in the past. So I love, and I'll give Albright a lot of credit here. I don't think it's very easy to take somebody that's so good and has made a theme visually recognizable in the artists that did these book covers and still do all the plastic stuff to make it look like it belongs to that same art while still making it shown that it's still your art too. Like some of Albright's line work helps play fields look fuller than they are. This doesn't need that because this was pretty effing packed. Almost the line art maybe makes it look even more blurred, but he does a really good job of filling in details so that it looks like more than is even there. Because he'll do even decals on the side of plastics or decals that he'll do decals on the targets. Everything is drawn in. And a weird plastic that might go over a ramp, he'll do some artwork on that to bring that whole world under glass to life. So I do love all of that artwork.
    51:13
    I think this may be heralded as their best-looking multimorphic game. Portal, I can see. I still would favor Portal overall. Even though the approach on Portal felt so different from the video game, I pushed on it. Overall, though, I don't know.
    51:35
    For me, the sculpts are throwing me. With the sculpts here, I kind of lean to this, but if I were to take the sculpts out and just make the art carry itself, I don't know.
    51:47
    I think some of it's just some of the color choices for the dungeons doesn't remind me of what I heard.
    51:57
    It seems a little more pinball-y, maybe. I don't know. I don't have a good answer for you. Let's talk about these sculpts then as we talk about toys, mechs, just dysfunctionally and all this stuff. And we'll talk about kind of layout at the same time. But this is not looking like a Lexi Lightspeed P3 game.
    52:17
    They've doubled down on what they put on the extended module over the LCD play field. But if we're just staying in the back, thank God. I always felt like I'm the only person in pinball that loves big, huge sculpts that cover, that create worlds that cover ball paths. I am a nerd for that. It makes me horny seeing all of that stuff. Some of you start hating and call things Popeye, but for me, like that whole rock dungeon, you know, arches and stuff, absolutely fantastic. It brings the world in. Signs, you've got Donut. It's probably my favorite sculpt. You've got Donut. I don't know. In the video, it shows the sunglasses that Donut's wearing flashing her eyes, but I don't know if that's a reflection or if that is. I don't think it's in the photos too. They must have LEDs in them because there's one photo that I saw with the donut with the ball lock and one glass is blue and one's red. So they clearly have LED it. Because that was awesome in the trailer. I was like, oh, cool. And Mongo, the little raptor, that's really nice. Even Carl in the back, that sculpt. I think Mongo is my favorite sculpt.
    53:36
    It's pretty good. So the sculpts are awesome. But look at the wire forms. There's freaking wire forms everywhere. There's a third flipper shot. There's ball locks with magnets. This is all just in the top module. There's that hole under Mongo, the ball on a magnet, and it throws it around in there hitting targets. I don't know about that. They could probably stage that almost like Deadpool did where they can hold a ball in there if they want to. So do you lock a ball in there or does it always got the ball in there?
    54:10
    No, it lifts up. Yeah, the whole front base, almost like the final resistance where you hit something enough and it lifts up to show.
    54:22
    But yeah, it's like that where you, maybe it was highs, but you hit that bank. I like that better. It was so many targets close together. Yeah, it's just the targets alone are boring. Yeah, well, you know, it reminds me a little bit of Al's Garage Band where they've got the spinning disc and they've got the targets up in there, kind of like that, like those sort of things.
    54:44
    Obviously, this isn't spinning, but that lifts to get up in there. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, I like that better. There's a center drop target. They've got a couple multi-stage mechs in here that are hard to see from pictures, but this freaking sizzle reel is just, it'll confuse, you have to watch a sizzle reel multiple times. I had to, and I still don't know what's going on because there's so much going on in this game. Like there's a drop target, but then if you hit down that drop target, then there's like a multi-stage buck ramp kind of thing behind it. That thing is crazy. They've got loop shots, but then a loop shot where it comes back around by donut and it's elevated so the ball can be held there as a physical lock with a magnet.
    55:29
    And then the balls can then load up there and come out there. And for those confused, if you go to the other game that has the same physical module as Ender's Game, they don't have that dungeon cover over. So you can kind of see a little bit better about what some of these mechs are. There's this passing back and forth mech that I don't even know what to compare it to. Captive balls that can go from one side to the other in a loop. There can be a stack of balls on the left side and then a stack of balls to the right side. And they can shift one ball back over, four balls, two balls. They can shift all four, all five. Okay. Skylab from the 70s had that. Okay, yeah, it did as a flat. This is like a, yeah. And I'm trying to think, maybe Godzilla, Sega had like this captive ball that you kind of, a group of them that you get back and forth. It's like that, but Jerry was telling me it's, the left side is almost like, it's a visual representation of a meter. So the left side is like mana, as you're collecting mana per ball. So like if you collect one ball, you have so much mana to get this reward. Second ball would be so many mana to get this. So it's a visual representation of your mana. And you can decide to put it to the other meter. I forgot what the right side was. But that's not kills. What is it? It might be potions or inventory. Yeah, it's one of the stats. But that's the other side. So you can go back and forth. But he has them layered in a way that whenever the team does, whenever you hit it into like a hole or something, something can, it's so hard to explain. It's chaotic and overly mechanical. This thing is, there's a lot going on in this game. Yes, a lot of these things are multi, like they'll lift up. There's different things. And then as we move down, we have the wall of scoops, the interactive scoops that everybody likes on the P3 thing. That's one thing that's pretty universally loved.
    57:37
    But then we have this big old circle thing. Now, at first, when you watch the trailer, you think, holy crap, there's something on the main level of this playfield. It's like this dome circle thing that turns in ways that then open up different shot paths is what that's doing. So it can be an orbit to loop or to send it up to the upper playfield to do something. There's one that is, I think, a spinner on one maybe? There's one that it turns like it's a death turn, man, because it puts a bunch of targets right close to your flippers. So you've got to battle something that's getting closer to you. So that thing can turn, I think, 180 degrees or pretty much all the way around. So it has different stages that it will show or that it will present based on whatever is going on in the game. But it's a diverter on steroids to a certain extent. Is it always on the play field or does it lift? It's always on the play field. But it has the majority of it's I think passed through for a lot of it. So it just looks like a circle kind of thing because it has that ring of LEDs.
    58:43
    But yeah, a lot of it's passed through. In the position of the top down for those following with pictures, you can see there's like a left orbit that spins it up to the back. I'll have to try this. I'm skeptical. It's intense. The other cool thing is that whenever you're up in the dungeon and it has a wire form, it looks like it's just going to drop off the playfield and come back to the flippers. That actually is a second level. So this wheel serves itself on a second level as well to where it has structurally things happening on a top of plexi that is clear and you don't see. You'll see no wire forms are technically going back to the flippers because this whole upper level serves as a, they said in Ender's Game it makes sense because it's like you're in space with no gravity. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. In Dungeon Crawler it's more, it flows based on where that wheel is turned from the bottom. So it can divert balls to the left or the right flipper based on the top portion. Okay, yeah, as I zoom in, I'm seeing where the pilot stems out way further. Okay, yeah, that is clever. Yeah, that thing is freaking cool. And they basically took out the left target bank on the P3 system for this extended. So you still have the right bank, but the left bank is now even more shots in that thing. Yeah, I see that. And then another, so if that wasn't enough, then you have something new on the P3 that they did very simply too, engineering wise. They have, you know how most games now are using in-lane posts that come up to hold the ball. They'll tell like a mode and stuff. They have that now here in the P3. They're putting something on those, where the sling actuators are, to where it holds balls now in the in-lane. And if it wants to, it can do just like a post now where it will engage the sling and it'll pull. And I guess there's a piece that holds the ball now and can lock a ball or hold a ball there. And then so that's another just another feature. So what do you think of the overall layout?
    61:06
    I like the back. Not sure on the disc. Other than that, I think it's pretty interesting. I mean, it's all interesting, but yeah, the back, I like a lot of the ideas going on there. Don't know on the disc. I worry it's going to be too gimmicky, but I'll have to try it. We'll see how it feels because, yeah, I'm the same way. Yeah, I'm just curious. That is big, and I like that. Yeah, it takes a lot of space. I like that it is multifunctional. If you're going to have something down there and you're going to be brave enough to put something over the LCD playfield, You're doing so with multiple approaches because you've got two levels of what you're doing with the ball because you're spinning this thing and you have paths. I think it's ultimately going to be pretty freaking badass, but it's hard to know. That one's hard to know. But, yeah, the back of the playfield, yeah, it looks damn cool. I'm a sucker for a third flipper that has multiple paths. Rules, codes, moments we don't know. So the one cool thing that they were telling us is that lovers of the book of this game will really like this.
    62:13
    Essentially, it's non-linear, so it's not like you've got to play through book one, then book two. It's not who brought the dog. It's, and they changed the style.
    62:26
    But you can kind of play whatever book. But each book in and of itself is its own, like, game rules kind of thing. So Jerry was saying like I think right now book one is pretty much fully coded. They're into book two. By the time we start seeing this at X-Files or something, they'll have four or five. But like it's going to be one of the deepest damn games out there because you can kind of – he said like book one is very nostalgic to – like everything story-wise is based on that book, whatever book you're playing. So it's almost like, remember Harry Potter where you can pick the movie and then the scenes and stuff are based on what happened in that film and the tasks. It's going to kind of be like that here, but I think even deeper when it comes to like modes and stuff, multiple modes within each book kind of thing, I believe.
    63:17
    Again, I've not had my hands on this, I don't know, but that's what I'm being told. So it's hard to say until we see gameplay. I think gameplay video is coming out either here on launch day or soon after.
    63:32
    Sound, again, we got the call out guy, so that's going to be fantastic. I don't know what the music and sound effects are going to sound like yet. Same with animation and display. We can see some stuff on the trailer, but until we, it's going to be hard to say.
    63:49
    This is a, before we get into pricing and such, One word I would use to describe this in the most positive way possible is ambitious.
    64:01
    Would you agree? This is a very ambitious attempt at a game. Regardless if there's a P3 or not, I don't think there's any argument, even some of the naysayers as I was in the past.
    64:16
    You can't argue there's not a lot going on in this game. Think about some of the games we got recently. There's a lot going on.
    64:25
    And the sculpts look pretty dynamite too. I agree that, yeah, there is a lot going on. But that sort of engineering push from Multimorphic is pretty standard for them. When I think about Portal and what all it was doing, I mean, there was a lot of mechanical... Yeah, more so than a lot of other games, I think you've got a fair point. Comparatively to other P3 things, I think just other than the sculpt work, I would say it's about on par with the number of features, mechanical features I would come to expect.
    65:07
    Yeah, well, that's a pretty big compliment all in itself if that's the expectation. I'm glad they got the sculpts now. To me, the question is whether it'll live up. Like when they did the heist you mentioned in the crane, like their crane was so cool, like cooler than Batman 66's crane, cooler than any crane, I would argue, in the history of pinball.
    65:31
    You can't – I'm going to say it like this. You can't knock it out of the park every time. At some point, I suspect that the creativity will be too creative for its own good where you get into the, you know, examples of when we talk about like fancy ball locks and you don't want to maverick the thing where all of a sudden, you know, waiting for the steamboat wheel to come around ends up, yeah, it was great the first two times you locked a ball and now you can't wait for the thing to actually let you play the game. So those sort of, you know, again, in this case, it's a question of this giant circle thing. Obviously with Portal, they just really extended a ramp that went up and down, relatively simple concept, but it added a great deal of depth because it no longer, it felt like you were exclusively playing this game where all the shots were in the back.
    66:20
    And the games haven't always had all the shots in the back. That's where like the ball detector and knowing that things are happening on the lower level was something that was historically exploited. So, yeah, the big giant disc thing, interesting. I don't know. It becomes – I don't know. That's just the one piece. Everything else about it seems good. But as we kind of discussed on things it reminded us of, I've also seen all these aspects done before. I don't expect constant innovation out of pinball. So I think it's a creatively done way to assemble it.
    66:57
    And then with I agree with you, like not Popeye. We don't people like to see the ball roll around on games. I think this is subtle enough where it's not going to keep you feeling like you don't know where the ball is coming out of. There are some people that like that, like that surprise thing. I always find it a little disingenuous isn't the right word, but it's kind of I find it a little goofy because after you play a game maybe five times, You know where the ball's coming and it's, you know, like I'll walk up to Halloween and I'll briefly forget because, of course, I don't regularly play it.
    67:30
    Oh, yeah. No, there's going to be like this little lift and it's going to elevator up the ball. And that's, oh, my God. Oh, what a mystery. And then after that, you know, I know and I'm sitting there looking at my watch going, when is the ball coming back? Because I'm here to play. I'm here to play the butt pretzel game, not the butt, not wait for my ball to come up in an elevator. There were no elevators in the original Halloween. I still find that decision very strange.
    67:54
    Three levels. To have a ball elevator. One of the other reasons that I was more eager to partner up with Multimorphic is I always like people because I feel I relate to it. I always like people who feel like they have a chip on their shoulder or feel like they have something to prove. And when they actually start doing it, like Spooky was doing that very well in the past where they listened so intensely to the hobby and what do they want us to do? What do they keep fucking ripping us on? What do they keep shitting on? And then just trying to like, I'll bring you the best damn artist. I'll bring you the best damn rules. And the sculpts and everything, Spooky did that. It feels like Jerry and team over there over the years have been doing that as well in their own way. And I respect the hell out of that. I like when somebody is feisty and they want to prove other people wrong because I couldn't relate to that. So I like that. Tell me about the 4K.
    69:03
    We'll get there. That's my goal. It's late. We'll get there. Okay, pricing. Believe it or not, they've actually reduced the price from their last game.
    69:19
    This, I think the MSRP for this kit is $52.50, which Portal was $5,500, I think. So, interesting that a manufacturer has reduced the price of something. We can't... Faith plate was probably expensive. What was it? The faith plate, right? That was one of the mechanical features in Portal. Oh, okay. The faith plate. So I don't, I got to give them credit for not continuing to go up, technically. Still expensive for a game, for a module. It is. It just is. There's no ifs, ands, and buts around that. If you're, you save some money if you put it, if you're buying the P3 system with it. So if you're buying the P3 with Dungeon Crawler Carl installed, it's $12,350. Right around that, which is becoming kind of that $12,000 standard. You know, you've got Jersey Jack's middle tier is at $12,000. Their upper tier is $15,000. Stern's highest model is $13,000. This is $650 below that. Barrels, their last games were $11,600. So this is above that. Spooky, I mean, they're the pricing people. They were under $10,000 for their last couple sold-out games. Well, what's CGC at? So you see, I mean, Medieval Manus Myrtle is $12,000.
    70:41
    So right there with that as well. So they're where they need to be probably, but the value proposition for this is all the other games that you're buying with it.
    70:56
    That's the value prop here. Otherwise, I'm not going to blow smoke up your ass and be like, oh, this is a value game at $12,350. I think it's comparable to other games. No, I think that's a fair point.
    71:11
    Sales. Oh, we don't know yet because it's early. How do you think this does? I don't think it does dramatically better than the other big licenses. Like, I don't think it does dramatically better than Portal. Okay. Big licenses for P3. I mean, they had some pretty popular licenses. Weird Al, Princess Bride, Portal. Well, the system is the hurdle, not the look of this game.
    71:41
    I think their sales are going to be better, substantially better. Than all of them? Than all that I named?
    71:50
    I wonder what their best-selling game is. I would guess their best-selling game is Weird Al, if I were to guess. I would think so, too, because of the pandemic. I would say their best license is Princess Bride. License-wise, yeah, that'd be my... Again, just license, not talking about the game, gameplay and stuff. The reason I think this will do, I think this will be their best-selling game. I do. And I think the reason being, timing.
    72:20
    You see what I did there, I timed it with the saying time. Timing. Now, I don't know if they lucked into this, but goddammit, Donut, their timing on this was phenomenal. They are hitting at the hotness of this theme. Princess Bride is a great theme. Nostalgic. Wasn't it the hotness of Princess Bride at that time? Portal. Cool theme. There's nothing new with Portal franchise or that theming. It's an old video game. They are hitting right when they need to on this. I would say this is a hotter title timing-wise than a lot of stuff that's going to come out this year, last year, the year before, etc.
    73:05
    It's just hot right now. They're getting their own series. They just revealed it at Comic-Con. It's a damn hot title. This is a title so hot. It's a small theme. It's a small theme that makes sense to multimorphic, but they're hitting at the perfect time where I think even the big dogs have thought, Man, did we miss this one? Did we? Man, we may have missed this one. I don't know if it's big enough for Stern, but I think Stern would love to release a Dungeon Crawler Coral pin this summer. I really do.
    73:40
    Could be. You're putting a lot of weight in the timeliness bias, and we haven't seen that historically in pinball. Walking Dead came out at the peak of that show, was one of Stern's worst-selling games, which is why it remains shocking that they ever remastered the thing.
    73:57
    Game of Thrones maybe did better in that regard, but nostalgia, we've talked about it many times. Nostalgia is what sells games. Dungeon Crawler Carl has no nostalgia. It's just because it's new. It's not like Ready Player One or Stranger Things which attempts to exploit our nostalgia while being a new original concept. You can't hate on Stranger Things, you gotta watch it. It's not about hate, but it is an exploitation. That is what it was. And so in that regard, again, Portal, you're right. Like no new game on the horizon, anything like that. But they did so well at making it feel like you were in the world of Portal. It felt like you were playing Portal, but as a pinball, this in some ways is a step back. It's just being in the story world. We get that all the time. We're in the story world of Transformers. That's compared to what? Gen 1. What do you mean? You said a step back. What would be? The complexity of what they needed to achieve to make Portal work. Oh, okay. Video games have been avoided as a translation device into pinball, I think in part because how do you make the video game experience feel like you're in that world? Outside of racing, like what easy way is there? And it's not easy, but I think they did it so well in Portal. Like it felt like you were doing the levels in Portal while playing a pinball version. It's just going through a story just like any movie pin is. John Wick saying, you know, when they released John Wick, you'd have thought it had done great. They were still behind on John Wick by years. I agree. It would have been better to come out around movie three. This is the peak. My whole timing argument is because... I'm just saying that peakness is not... we don't have, unless you've got data otherwise, and I don't think you do. That's why I'm pushing. I don't. That peakness of freshness of the popularity of something has never shown to work better than nostalgia. So I think you're putting a lot of prediction eggs in the basket of that dungeon crawler Carl. And again, there's a big jump, Zach. You lose sight because of your wealth. So allow me to proletariat this for you. You lose sight. How many pinball machines do you own, Zach? How many pinball machines do you own that are LEs? All right. Summer down now. 30? Summer down. My point is that there's a big gap between people who buy the books and then go to a comic con and buy a few stickers to then asking them to spend 12 grand.
    76:39
    I don't think there are people with shrines of Dungeon Crawler Carl. Like, they probably have shrines to the Princess Bride. Think they have tattoos? Different. Yes. I know they have tattoos. What do you think one of the newest, most popular costumes at the concert? A tattoo of the dude who sang Chocolate Rain on his arm. So I've seen all sorts of stuff. What I was saying with the timing-wise is I would rather attempt, because of the scale of the hotness right now for this theme, give me this versus this in 10 years as a theme. Now, it may be hotter, but I would rather take my risk right now because that's how hot it is. I am not saying, I'm not meaning to say that it is not the right time to do Dungeon Crawler Carl. I think this is the great time to do Dungeon Crawler Carl. But I think there's a big difference between saying that and then that, oh yeah, this is thus, because the timing is so awesome from Ultimorphic, This is thus going to do better than Princess Bride, Weird Al, or Portal. And I'm like, I don't know. Princess Bride's a stronger theme. Weird Al had the pandemic money thing going on where people could just throw money into Pinnball machines and there was nothing else to do. And Portal was arguably the best engineering execution of any first party title that they've done. I'm not saying it won't beat them. I'm just saying timeliness sure wouldn't be what I'd put my chips on to say, oh yeah, this is going to do better than all of that. I think it, yeah, I get it. And I don't think it does better because it has nice sculpts. I think there's so many things and this is one that really helps. Now what I will say is this will do better than Ender's game.
    78:24
    How much better? And four years ago I'd never have said that. Four to one. Four to one this outsells Ender's. A lot. The only thing that would balance it out is if Ender's Game rules come out and it's just. Absolutely. So, again, there's some aspects that I'm predicting on partial information, but, you know, that's what makes it fun.
    78:47
    Yeah. So sales I think yeah I think this is going to be a good theme for them I think it does well I think it does well for P3 That where I at I going to still see it That where I at If you want me to place it and I don know what their sales numbers are I going to say it outsells Princess Bride I don't think it outsells Portal, and I don't think it outsells Weird Al. That's where I'm going to place it.
    79:10
    I would think it's... And Indersgrame isn't even going to outsell Princess Bride. Okay, I'm going to go with that one. I think this outsells... I don't know what those numbers are, so... The only people that we'll know are them. I think they're going to have more sales of P3 machines because of this release than they did every other title with the exception of maybe Weird Al. Weird Al had said, again, it's just... Weird Al, they got a lot of P3s sold because of that. And again, that's kind of funny because it's the same thing with Guns N' Roses and Jersey Jack. I don't know anyone who says Guns N' Roses is the best playing Jersey Jack game, but golly, other than maybe Harry Potter now, is it the best seller? I mean, it blew past flaws. It is, yeah.
    79:59
    I mean, and that was just timeliness. It's not because Guns N' Roses is an awesome band. That was pandemic effect, baby. And them bringing lighting up a notch. Oh, there were other things that played to its advantage, but we get that great lighting out of all their stuff now. Now we do, yeah. So in theory, that should be an equalizer at this point.
    80:23
    I think, yeah, I think this really, and now production timeline wise, they are like many other manufacturers where they're announcing the game, they're not going to be, I mean, the last, I don't know how many releases we've got from people. They announced the game, they're not making them for months from now. So I don't think we're going to start seeing them. That's weird. I know, but that's just how these mean. I mean, Pedretti just said the same thing. I don't know why anyone's doing this, Zach. Tell it to me like I'm a child. Why would you do that?
    80:58
    Reduction of risk, for one. Well, hey, Nicole, how's it going? Oh, you can say hello to everybody. What do you got going on there? If you were a child, I would say the only thing is a reduction of risk and they get excited.
    81:18
    I don't think that's necessarily here with Multimorphic that they just get eager and they just want to launch it.
    81:26
    But as a whole, some of these manufacturers may misinterpret when they should launch something. Let me ask you this. Do you think that the author mentioning it at one of those fan talks forced their hand months ago? Like, did they move up their timetable because he didn't keep his mouth shut about a pinball machine coming? Oh, it could be. Yeah, for Dungeon Crawler. It could be because I think that, and I don't know this for sure, but I think that Multimorphic knew that there was, in discussions with Matt Deniman and this license holder or whoever, they knew there's a possibility that they announce at Comic-Con. They probably knew there's a possibility that they show the video or show pictures. They probably knew it's a possibility because ultimately the license holder will do whatever the hell they want. Ultimately, that's the leverage that they probably have over the manufacture of a pinball machine. However, there's probably a large likelihood that they didn't plan with Multimorphic what all they were going to show, how they were going to do it. I bet they were like, I bet Multimorphic is like, there's a good chance that they're going to show this. And we just have to kind of be prepared for that. So maybe, maybe that does force them into it as well because there was a lot of chatter that this game was coming. Not by what manufacturer, but I mean you had the artist saying stuff. You had influencers that were with DCC and saying stuff, so maybe. But I don't know why they would delay.
    82:56
    I mean, financially, can you afford to take the risk on building 100 pinball machines like a P3 in hopes that everything will be ready to go? I mean, I don't know. I don't know manufacturing. Could you not take the risk of building 50? Gee, though, we could just lower the amount we pre-billed. Well, right now, though. And maybe there's a long tail before more get built, but. I think the turnaround. You know, Barrels kind of got that rep of, you know, having some Labyrinths ready when they did Labyrinths. They did with Dune. Winchester, for the most part, took a while, but Dune they had. I think the turnaround for a P3 machine is like 12 weeks right now already. So once this game, as this game is launched, that's going to balloon, I would think. Yeah, I would think it would go up.
    83:49
    Okay, well. So we will see. Well, good luck to them. I look forward to trying it. If you're looking to purchase a Dungeon Crawler. I am not right now. I will try it. Viewer, if you are, it's simple. All you got to do is go to Dungeon Crawler, Carl Pinball.
    84:04
    No, I might not be joking. You know, maybe just type it in, see what happens. But you can go to FlippinOutPinball.com, order yours today. Or you can email me, Zach, Z-A-C-H, at FlippinOutPinball.com. They're a sponsor of the show. That's why we're plugging them here. And it's my company, so I mean, fuck, I'm not going to do that. Tan at FlippinOutPinball.com, Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com, Helen Nicole, Sarah, Jody. Jody, we have a shipping. We have a shipping team member now, Dennis.
    84:36
    Jody Dankberg? That's right. Too soon? There are rumblings that Jody Dankberg is no longer with Stern in licensing. I've heard some rumblings.
    84:52
    But there's so many rumors out there. I don't think he is. I think he is gone. Okay. But not gone to Flippin' Out? No. This is a friend of ours. I mean, you've stolen people from other pinball companies.
    85:09
    Stolen's a strong word, Dennis. Kidnapped. More value. I value them more, maybe. Providing more opportunities for, maybe. Yeah, a lot of opportunities. I like to help people grow. Yeah, you're a helper. I'm like a gardener.
    85:29
    Really, with a green thumb. Pinball thumb. And that's why it makes this partnership with Multimorphic so good. Because I think with our powers combined, yeah. Bye, bye, bye. Bye, bye, bye! I mean, it's not Captain Planet, but okay.
    85:47
    Heart! I was still sorry for that kid. Everybody else gets a cool power. Heart. The fuck is that? Ender's Gain.
    86:00
    Now this is coming out with Dungeon Crawler Carl. The same module features different rules, different team and everything. This content is entirely based on the book by Orson Scott Card, not the movie. It is the literature piece. While there are some dark undertones, Jerry, the owner of Multimorphic says, the theme is family, family friendly.
    86:23
    All right. Who's working on this game? Well, creative directors Stephen Silver and Josh Coogler is back. Josh Coogler. Rules by Colin McAlpine. Oh, Tournament Darling. Pinnberg Helper Aficionado of Rules. Did you see that thing he released with that? That was really awesome. Mechanicals by T.J. Weaver and Trey Jones. Music by Aaron Williams and Paul Farrer. Farrer? Go Farrer. Sound Design, Glenn Wechter. He's a hobbyist. Software, Josh Kugler, Steve Scheuer, and Ian Harrower. Artist, Brad Albright again. Really shines on this game. Technical artist. What is a technical artist? Rory Cernuda.
    87:08
    I think Rory's been with them on previous releases as well. Technical artist. My ignorance here. I don't know what that is. Maybe that has to do with the lower play field and making sure, like, the inserts and stuff. Maybe that's a piece of it. Okay, makes sense. But we'll see. Emails. The animation, Stephen Silver and Rory Cernuda. And voices, Glenn Wechter, Lucas Pepty. Oh, our friend Lucas Pepty. Puppet Pals, Lucas Pesco, J.R.P. Macho Pimball, Lucas Pesco. It's been so long, I can't even remember their voices anymore. It's been 84 years. Moppy.
    87:46
    Moppy? Yeah. And Rory? Still a favorite content ever. That was like an acid trip of time, whatever was going on in Pimball back then. Hobby did not deserve that. Sam Tucker, A-Line Allen. And Alana Johnson, Cash Bailey, just a cornucopia of characters here, Tyson and Eli Silver, the Young Bucks. Artwork.
    88:14
    Okay. Jump in. What do you think? I'm not familiar with this theme. So to me, it's like an original theme, kind of. I know of it. I'm not totally ignorant. But when I'm looking at the outside cabinet and Translight portion of this game, that's what I love. Like, I love this as an original theme. It reminded me of, oh, what spooky mock-up, and they brought the TPS years back. It was like a space theme kind of thing. It kind of reminds me of that. I like Brad Albrecht's colors and his compositions for what is an original theme to me, a space theme. So it looks damn cool.
    88:58
    Yeah, I don't like it. Oh my God. I love that. Yeah, I don't like it. All right. Do you tell us what you don't like about the art page? I think it's the people in it. Okay. People in general just bog you down or there's this work of people? I don't like the left side of the cabinet and the hand and then the shadow. That's Winchester-like. That's one of his. Yeah, I just, I don't know. Here, I just don't, I'm not feeling it. Does the ender character do anything with their hands? I recognize what they're trying to convey. I just, I don't know. And maybe purple's not one of my stronger color choices anyway. There's just a lot of purple. Purples and blues will make you tilt. So, like, I just, yeah, it's just not. This is not for you, it sounds like, this art package. Art-wise, I would never not buy a game over the art, though. No, you'll buy Dungeon Crawler Carl and put that artwork. Like the little kids in the trans light getting, like, blasted, and, like, the guy in the middle, just beneath the, I'm assuming that's Ender, just beneath Ender's arm, you just see the guy going, like, wah! And he's just like, and it's just so, I don't know. It looks like they're up against a pain glass, like they're watching what's going on out in the... Well, no, there's a... Again, you might want to... I don't know. I can't tell you to read the book because I didn't read the book. You might want to watch the movie and then you can see what that is. What's it do with his hands? I'm just saying, like, you know, I get it. It's just like, I don't know. I feel like there's a lack of detail. Is Dr. Strange doing that? It's just like he doesn't even have a face. He's too far... I don't know. What about the main character on the back glass? Is that Ender? I guess it is. Because he's pointing with great endery authority. Yeah, that's like, that's big endery energy right there. If I've ever seen it. And he's also on that right side of the cabinet, you know, blasting his little blaster. Look at that hair. I'm jealous of that hair. That is a mop. I kind of like the side of the cab better. The back box, excuse me. Like on the right, that face looks like, I don't know, there seems more detail in it. Maybe I just don't see any emotion in these faces. Oh, you're an emotion guy. Okay. Well, there's a lot of shadowing done, a lot of backlight shot. No, I just, you look at it, if you didn't know what it was, you would say generic space fight.
    91:31
    Doesn't tickle your way. Or I would say it. If you're looking at top-down, play field, do you dislike that equally? More or less?
    91:41
    In terms of the top down of the play field. Yes, looking at plastics, theming. I think the complaint would be that it doesn't feel like it's in the story. It's just generic. Star Trek, Stern Star Trek. What was the complaint about the play field? Do you remember way back then? There's nothing Star Trek about it. It's just space. Generic. It's just space station, generic space station.
    92:12
    From an industrial standpoint, I like it. I like the color better on the playfield than I do on the sides and stuff. I like those purples and stuff coming into play. Make it feel like it's some sort of sterile space military play. Like the vibe is right. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. Like the vibe is right. But I can't help it, Zach. I'm thinking about Dungeon Crawler Carl. And I like Dungeon Crawler. It felt busier on the playfield in some ways. The artwork helped it make it feel like that too. Yeah, and also it felt like I could see the shots clearer with it. Here, the line work is really clean and stuff, but again, I see the arrows, the inserts are doing a lot of the heavy lifting. The bricks and stuff were certain colors on Carl. I see what you're saying. So even though physically this shows definitely ball paths and stuff more, it's more confusing because it doesn't engage, the artist doesn't engage with shot paths as much as he likes it. The rest of the art doesn't seem to me, again, from these images, to lead my eye in the easy way that Carl's leading my eye. Okay. So, again, I think the priority was to make the space station look like a space station. Mm-hmm. I totally get it. I see what you're saying. Yeah, it's just some pieces too. It's not like I have any issues with how it's been drawn on that aspect. But yeah, it does just look like a silver. I mean, there's a lot of color, but a lot of the art textures are very much the same. Okay, I like the top-down look with the, maybe it's lighting, maybe it's a combination of the lighting and the artwork. It looks more magical. I like the colors. I love the color, the purples and the blues, and then little layers of greens and reds. I love that color vomit that a lot of people object to. As we're jumping into the mechs and toys and stuff, this shows you really well a lot easier for explaining Dungeon Crawler Carl. Look at that top layer of that circle thing. See how it has that plastic that diverts the ball once it comes off that wire form? Yes. Diverts it to the left or if that whole circle turns. It is a lot easier to see here. Yeah, it diverts it to the right. Same with the wire forms up top. That's a clever idea. It is. That's clever. Is it fun? I don't know. The toys and mechs on this game, I would say, so they're the same as Dungeon Crawler Carl, but you can see the whole back play field. You see the ball pass a hell of a lot better. But these are so short that I prefer Carl's approach to covering that. Okay. I'm wondering how people will feel about the distinction between the two. Because I can see some people saying, I like this better because it shows the ball flying over to the other assembly better.
    95:01
    I can see the orbit that turns into the wire form. Rules will outweigh all of it. You'll have some people who will buy this because they love the book, Ender's Game. Some people will buy Carl because they're into Dungeon Crawler Carl. Anyone who's just about the gameplay, it's going to come down to the rules rather than even the visual of seeing the ball or not. I don't think anyone's going to be like, I wish I could watch the four inches that the ball bounces in the basically glorified U-turn, I don't know what else to call it, on Ender's game rather than it being masked in Dungeon Crawler Carl. Instead, I think it's going to be more like what ends up happening with Colin's rules here. Like, if this is more balanced, the competitive style person will be drawn more to this one.
    95:46
    And maybe if Carl is going more through a story of, I mean, again, I'm trying, I look at the play field for Enders and I, if it's all going to be about, I mean, so much of it just takes place as a kid being trained. So it's less like training missions. Okay. Again, I don't think this is going to make you feel the story. I just don't think it's going to do that. I don't know how deep this game is compared, but we do know the lead programmer, Colin McAlpine, is heavy into the competitive scene. He has a brain on him for pinball. So regardless of what he creates, whether it's more depth or more basic approach, I would put money on it being very balanced and very cognizant of pinball rule sets and what competitive high-level players want. If you don't know Inder's game, we'll have to see. I don't know if the moments are going to stand out the same way. I don't expect Dungeon Crawler Carl to drag us through the trauma of what happened on the above ground world and make us feel his character. It's going to be all about the juicers and the ball is small. Those fun, zany moments that happen with the action, that is going to be so easy for them to farm. Ender's game, I think, is harder. What I'll say is that when we were shown both trailers, the DCC, Dungeon Crawler Carl, kept a smile on my face the whole time just because of the call-outs, seeing the ball go everywhere. This one did a really good job of showing a moment. So whenever, and you'll see it later, Dennis, but the lighting that they've added on these titles is phenomenal, especially around that ring. They do this thing where once they lock all the balls and they're getting ready to release them all, and that's why I told Jerry, like, what a frickin' moment Ender's Game's got with the lighting programmed already because he was like, oh, that's just, we're just now starting with that. But this whole frickin' thing, you see the wheel start, they're very controlled LEDs on that wheel, that circle. Those start flashing. The whole thing just frickin' lights up and it comes to this big old climactic moment. But I don't know what it was related to because I don't know the theme, but visually it was stunning with the light work on this particular game. Whereas DCC trailer was more story. It didn't show a lot of the crazy lighting effects in it. They're in both, but this one was like space, lighting, technology, almost like that Tron-esque type of metal electronics type of feel. Well, whether that's accurate or not to the theme, I don't know. But yeah, I see what you're saying with, I mean, we're lacking a lot of sculpts and stuff to see. And then when it comes to the layout and such, you have to go listen to our, if you've listened just to separate pieces, go back and listen to our Dungeon Crawler Carl comment on the layout, different things. But I do love that you can see visually what's going on in Dungeon Crawler Carl by looking at this. And when I said there's so much freaking going on that back third, I mean, there's layers upon layers of shots and wire forms.
    99:05
    That's my style of game. I love that. Okay. Rules, code, moments we don't know, sound we really don't know, animation display all time will tell. Pricing for this, this is cheaper than Dungeon Crawler Carl. The standalone kit, $4,400 for this game module. And if you're wanting to buy the P3 system with this game installed, that is $11,750.
    99:34
    Sales prediction for this. We already kind of talked about that. You think 4 to 1 Dungeon Crawler Carl to this.
    99:41
    Yeah, you know, and I heard about this rumor first. I wonder if I'd be more biased. Ender's game is loved by so many people. But again, it doesn't have this whole cultural phenomenon. Like who goes around cosplays from Ender's Game? And my argument is this. I think at least five to one, if not more, Dungeon Crawler Carl with this. Because had they just released Ender's Game, no Dungeon Crawler Carl, it would have sold more units than what it's going to sell coming out at the same time as Dungeon Crawler Carl. I can almost guarantee you that. And what I will say is even though it seems apples and oranges, my ignorance will say, maybe it's my feel. I feel that there's quite a bit of layover or quite a bit of overlap between lovers of Ender's Game and Dungeon Crawler Carl. So I think that because DCC is such a hot property right now, people who just really like Dender's game and would probably look to buy a pinball machine based on that may equally if not more so love Dungeon Crawler Carl and really want that right now. And maybe they buy both because these are, you can't play one within the other. You have to buy two different modules to play both games. So maybe they buy both, but I think it pushed them to shove. We're getting some overlap there, which also hurts the sales of Enders game versus Dungeon Crawler Carl. Do you think coming out together, combined, they sell more than the other P3? Or do you think it's negligible adding this to the equation? Yeah, in some ways I would say it might have been better to wait like six months and then drop the second module maybe. Oh, that would have been interesting. Yeah, because there are a lot of people that I'm not sure will buy both modules. Again, they're the same layout.
    101:40
    But if you have people that weren't into DCC but were into sci-fi and you waited six months, it might goose it a little bit better. But a lot of those people, if they're not into one of them and are into the other one, this strategy will work just fine too. So my gut tells me there is a better way to min-max this than doing it this way, but I'm not sure. It may be marginal. That's probably – Yeah, I think you risk – This is how everyone's always done it. Yeah. You risk really pissing people off too if you come out six months later and say, hey, you actually have to buy it all over again. I think – But we didn't have a totally different rule set. I mean it's not Shrek and Family Guy. It's a totally different rule set. It's just different. I don't know. I think they were smart doing it now. If you're going to do the dual thing, do it now. But the theory of sabotaging your own sales by selling something else does kind of come into play where I personally suspect totally original layouts of Ender's Game and DCC would sell more than doing this. But this was lower effort. Sure. And it's about how much did it cost for you to pay for the license and for an additional team to work on a game versus, yeah, it's just all numbers. Okay, production timeline. So here's what I know about this. Same kind of thing. They're not going to start making these for months, however, or not start shipping them for months, probably towards the end of the year.
    103:08
    Us dealers asked how this was going to be handled. Are you going to do DCC first, then enders, or vice versa? That's actually going to be mixed in between. They're going to base it on their orders. So Jerry says it's quite logical that we get a ton of one over the other, then we're just going to ratio it out to where we're getting more out of the game we have the most fails for versus the others. So they will go out in relationship to their sales numbers. Same with, I was surprised to hear he claimed that when it comes to like who's getting what shipped, he's doing it that way as well. So it's not like, you know, multimorphic direct sales is getting all of them shipped out 50 compared to the 50% of all dealers. It's very much split up between where the sales are going. So that's good too. But I think the first, what are they at, Gen Con this week? I don't know if that's announced or not. I think it is in Indianapolis. And then you'll be able to play it at all the other, you know, a lot of the other shows, the remaining of this year, Expo and different things coming out. If you're interested in Ender's Game, of course, purchase it from FlippinOutPinball.com or go to Ender's Game Pinball.com. No, that one I don't have, Dennis. I don't have Ender's Game Pinball. I'm good letting that one go.
    104:30
    Yeah, email us. We'd love to earn your business. And for those of you who are going to buy both modules, reach out to us. I'd like to know how many people are really going to buy both of them. I would think it would be a small percentage. But if people, literally, if, you know, book readers out there just are like, finally, they care about us. I thought they were just going to lean in on all the video games this year. This is the year that Zach said of the video games, and then everybody stole that and ran with it. So I get some book stuff. I'm going to show them my support of all the book lovers out there.
    105:07
    Yeah. Maybe. Bookmarks make me horny. I don't know. Do people still use bookmarks? Or do people do the digital? Can you really read on a digital screen? Yeah, I bought a new Kindle because mine actually is no longer supported. I had like a second gen Kindle. Oh, wow. iPod called.
    105:27
    Yeah, basically. They want their girlfriend back. They retired. I knew the little magnet inked. I don't get the ones with the color or anything, just the magnet ink. Really easy to read even in the sun. They're black. Well, there's like the Kindle tablets that have the, you know, like they can do colors. I don't think I'd like to read on a tablet.
    105:49
    The regular tablets, no, I don't like them because of the reflection and stuff. But those little magnetic ink, e-ink stuff, like that's real easy to read. Very comfortable. There's something about the physical book. No, I get it. I'm currently reading a Bob Woodward book physically because that's how I got it. Oh, cool. Barrels of fun, Dennis. Mm-hmm. A whole barrel of fun. That's how you describe recording these episodes. Shothead Dungeon Crawler Carl, but they were wrong. Wrong. I've never seen such wrongness in this movie. Before we jump into their next game, we've got to talk about a couple of things that prior to the release of this new game, They came out with something they're calling Barrels of Fun Reserve Club.
    106:29
    Do you hear about this? Yeah, I've heard of it. I've seen some discussion on Discords, including our not-so-private-ish Discord. I kind of gave my opinions on our Discord, but for those who don't want to support us through patreon.com slash the pinball show, I'll let you know my thoughts quickly about this, because people are wondering how dealers would feel about it. Yeah, how do dealers feel? This is a club that they came out with that essentially said, hey, you can be part of a subscription-based club. You pay this monthly or yearly $75 for the year, and what you're getting is you're getting a bunch of swag. You're getting invites to members-only events. Yes, you are, but the big thing, I would argue the big thing was you get potentially a guarantee of every game that comes out. So the people that missed out on Winchester, gone are the days, they don't have to worry about missing out now. You don't have to worry about that potentially because there are rules associated with this. So how is it like the Fang Club? Kind of like the Fang Club. But as you remember, the Fang Club kind of. No, I didn't. Actually, I was going to ask you, is the Fang Club still around? I don't think it's a thing. It might be a thing. My apologies, Spooky, if it is, but it didn't. It's not doing what it was intended to do. What was it intended to do? Like it was like this whole, hey, I get to guarantee a new game and not miss out on a sold out game. But when they released the Fang Club, they did so in front of a game that didn't sell out. So it kind of people. Oh, I see. It didn't. It wasn't necessary. Wasn't necessary. I think they they did that right before. What was maybe right before Scooby-Doo?
    108:26
    No, they did it right before Halloween because it was kind of in response to Rick and Morty, I believe. Rick and Morty sold out immediately. I couldn't remember how long ago it was. I think it was Halloween and Ultraman. Now, granted, they sold a lot of Halloweens. But I don't think it did what people thought it was going to do. So this, Barrels of Fun Reserve Club. Barrels of Club Reserve.
    108:52
    Barrels of Fun Reserve Club. The stipulations here are, it's all of that, so you get to be a member of all this stuff and all fun and stuff.
    109:02
    I'm going to be honest, it's convoluted. So I've had discussions with David Van Ness over at Barrels about my feelings associated with how this affects our partnership as a distributor for them. But I was able to put that to the side as well and say, even if I don't like it as a dealer, just as a consumer, as someone in this hobby, it's convoluted and it's kind of confusing the way it's presented. Because I didn't even know what it was after reading through it or what it meant. It felt like it meant you're guaranteed a game. If you sign up $75 for the year, every game they come out with, you get guaranteed. Now, granted, you have to buy direct, which is kind of a stipulation. I'm like, I don't like that. You have to buy direct, but you get guaranteed a game. However, it's not really like that. It is.
    109:50
    When they come out with their reasoning for doing this, they didn't like seeing people left out on Winchester. They felt like they don't want to make people feel like they can't get a game that they're making.
    110:05
    The business side of it would argue they didn't want to miss out on that. It was their choice that made people miss out. I mean, they chose to limit the number. Yes, which my argument is partially why it was successful. I would agree. As quickly selling out as it was. That Carl D'Angelo was a big factor in there. A couple of factors. They didn't want people to miss out on that. So, okay, so they're creating this program that says, hey, you're not going to potentially miss out. So when announcing a new title, they're going to say how many they're limiting the game to initially. So they're going to put a number on that. If they sell out of those games within seven days of their launch, then they can dip into those reserve members and say, Which one of you guys can now be guaranteed this game? How many of you would like to have this game? But if the number they announce at launch is not reached sales-wise in the first seven days, that's how I understand it, then the reserve does not go into effect, in which case those individuals aren't guaranteed a game. So my retort to that, to Barrels of Fun, was they're still guaranteed a game because it didn't sell out. So they can then just buy the game. So they're essentially still guaranteed pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. But if it didn't sell out and then let's say people got to, like let's say it went to Southern Fried. Like they announced 10 days later it's at Southern Fried. Everyone's like, holy crap, this is amazing. And in the next three days it sells out. And then the reserve people didn't get the opportunity. They didn't buy it. And now they can't. Absolutely. Absolutely. Here's I. It's weird. This is all weird. Yeah, I was going to say, here's the thing. When it comes to limited numbers, I have I have I probably have lots of rules, but I have one rule. I'll just say I have one rule, Zach. Don't make me do math. I shouldn't have to do math to know how many of a limited something is being made. You have you already had two choices. You can limit the count or you can time limit it. Merging those two concepts together just makes it messy. Why would it be messy? It's not even a merge. It's, hey, we're going to initially have this number, but keep in mind, there could be more people buying this that we give the opportunity to. We're not going to tell you what that number is. They're not going to tell us how many people are in their reserve club, right? Are they going to tell us the final count, though, if they do that? Like, oh, it sold out in six days and I had another 33 people buy? I don't know. So now it's 1,033. Because then that would tell us how many people are in their reserve club. Well, it would tell us how many bought from the reserve club. It wouldn't be right to assume that everyone in the reserve club would buy every game. Yeah, correct.
    112:58
    So, yeah, so maybe that's what they will enjoy. I still don't care for this. It's weird. It's just, it's odd that when you come out, let's use hypotheticals. Next game, let's say they have 500. They come out, they say, here's our next game. We're going to – they have to say initially – they can't say we're making 500 games because that's not true. They're going to say we're initially limiting this to 500 games.
    113:21
    If it sells 500 in the first seven days, then they go to their reserve. Let's say they have 400 people in their reserve. So potentially they are going to make 900. But of those 400 people, what if 100 want them? So then they would make 100 plus 500, which would be 600. You'll never know. My argument is you have overnight killed any collectability based on limitability or limited. Yeah. Those that collect for scarcity will be turned off by this process. And they claim they want to get rid of scalpers so that helps this. I don't think it, I don't really think it does any of that. I think, if anything, it hurts scalpers because it hurts the value of your product in general, the value long-term. I do think it would help with scalpers, but it could be because of the price you're paying, yes. And because they can make as many as $75. Why wouldn't everybody sign up if they're really worried about that? $75 for the year.
    114:25
    If people are really worried about missing out, sure, $75. It's fine. It's a weird program. I think that what got them to where they're at now are things that this program is getting rid of.
    114:42
    And if it's not broke, don't fix it kind of thing. Labyrinth, they sold over 1,000 units, and they did great. They come out with Dune. Initial sales were not strong. Now they're very strong. They're going to end up building probably 800, if not more, 800 to 900, with still the option to go back and build a couple hundred more in the future if they ever wanted to. That game is now selling for much more than MSRP, believe it or not, Dunes. And then they came out with Winchester. They, in my opinion, very smartly capped it at 525. Everything about that launch and the art, the rules, the theming, it all was damn near perfect. And they were rewarded with an immediate sellout, within 24 hours, immediate sellout. So then they had this momentum. And they built, they not only were successful in that product, they were successful in brand growth and identity. And what only few manufacturers are capable of doing is selling your future product because of the success of your current product.
    115:56
    So that would have, in my opinion, really helped them sell the next product that comes out. But with this program, it promises some people who missed out of Winchester to be able to get their Winchester in the future. However, if that's the case, Winchester would not be selling for $20,000 as it is now. It would be selling for quite less, in which case if the game is great, the game is great, it'll sell.
    116:24
    But I like hedging my bets on multiple ways for something to be valuable to a consumer base. Yeah, I've told David this and the team over there. If you make great things, you never have to worry about anything. If they're truly top 5% great things, sure. But even the best people can't. And you said it yourself, you're going to have something that's just really good or something that's great, not profound.
    116:56
    And I don't know. I just don't like this program. But I'm a dealer. I'm very biased. I think it's horrible for the dealerships, partnerships they have.
    117:08
    I'm not going to be quiet about that. I think it's horrible, just horrible. I don't like that I found out about this program when they launched it.
    117:20
    But it doesn't make sense to me because as a dealer, essentially my argument is I've potentially lost all my customers that I've built up for the last three years through working with barrels to get to this point. Pinball at the sea.
    117:37
    I don't care about that either. That's a little mermaid. You don't care about a pinball gathering on the open seas? It sounds like a recipe for norovirus. The seaweed is always greener.
    117:53
    Okay, I love cruises, so I love this. But I don't know about going on a cruise with, I don't know. I don't know if it makes sense for me to go because there's a lot of money and time, but I'd love to go.
    118:13
    I don't know if it's in my best interest to go. Can you play pinball I don Yeah There not a lot of is there a lot of rocking on these giant ships No there not on the giant ships But, I mean, we get emails because something is, their level is on a play field and it's .01 skewing to the left and everything else. So I think it's a play field issue. It's like, people want to return games for a .01, you know, skew in flatness. So, we'll see.
    118:47
    I'm going to get you on this cruise. I don't think I would do that. The other thing with the reserve, they close it before they launch the next title, and they did close it.
    119:01
    So next title is upon us. How interesting. Barrels of Fun releases their next game. License their first music pen. It's almost like every manufacturer's got to have a music pen, don't they?
    119:19
    It does sort of feel that way, yeah. Yeah, you've got to throw it in the ring. Their music pen is based around the iconic hit band. Are they a band? Yeah, it's a band. Band Bon Jovi.
    119:38
    Wow, do you think this is a big family behind? A prayer? Well, I was actually referencing Living on a Prayer because there's a thumb in the eye to JJP because JJP had Willy Wonka and Living on a Prayer has the chorus with the Oompa Loompa, Oompa Loompa, Oompa Loompa.
    119:58
    That part's always supposed to be sung. Do you like Bon Jovi music? Yeah, it's not. I don't, we kind of talked about music earlier before we started recording. I don't actually, I don't think I have a single song like in my playlist though, so I can't say that I've. Yeah, Living on a Prayer has been in there before. I just don't currently, I must have purged it for some reason. So maybe too many people. Then again, you do give love a bad name, so there could be that. Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of them. Like I had friends growing up who loved Bon Jovi. It's kind of that pop, pop rock, hard rock kind of style. Not too edgy, but popular. Easy to listen to, safe to play on the radio.
    120:46
    Actually, I remember him. I think he guest starred on a few episodes of West Wing back in the day. Really? Yeah, I think so. Not bad. I think so. I'll double check that. Correct. Email the pinballshow.com if I'm wrong. Or right, I guess, because I'm not looking it up right now. Yeah, I think so. The music's fantastic. Wanted Dead or Alive. It's good pinball music. When you might think, when people hear Elton John and they think it's probably going to be too slow and stuff. No, this would be more like Guns N' Roses where people would be like, oh yeah, Bonn Ritchie. Yeah, I could see people rocking out, ACDC. I could see people rocking out to shooting the silver ball while listening to this stuff. It's perfect for that. And Living on a Prayer is probably one of the greatest classic rock songs.
    121:34
    Yes, iconic. It's probably my favorite of the Bon Jovi songs. Yeah, I do love that music. But then again, is this a theme that screams to me? No, it's just not. In a way, I love Elton John music too, but Elton John as a theme doesn't scream to me. It's a bit newer than some of the other stuff we've talked about, but this is going to get immediately lumped in as dad rock.
    122:01
    It's cool. It's a pencil dad rock. Yeah. One might say, it depends. Those of us who are old will think dad rock was the stuff our dads listen to, so we're going to say after you get outside of the 70s, it's not really dead rock anymore. But Bon Jovi, let's put it this way, ain't no Foo Fighters. No, it's a dad rock. And so we were doing so good, Zach. We were doing so well. We got to the point after Foo Fighters where people were seriously discussing whether or not Stern might pull the trigger on Taylor Swift or something or Beyonce. You know, something that would be more associated with Lady Gaga. And then here's barrels with their barrel reserve and just as aged as whiskey is their band pick.
    122:47
    That's a good one. I like that one. Bon Jovi. Does Nirvana not work yet? I think Nirvana works great. Because of the suicide of the lead, if it's sort of seen as we're not going to touch this. We can make fun of Abraham Lincoln getting assassinated at this point in pop culture, but we can't have a Nirvana. Well, no one's alive who remembers Abraham Lincoln like who had ever met him. I don't know if that's the answer, Zach. I'm just saying. Is it because Kurt Cobain was murdered? Is that why?
    123:24
    I've wondered if it's... You've wondered that too? No. I've wondered if it also... No, it was not Trudeau. I've also wondered if it, and again, we've seen plenty of exceptions to things like, well, like talking about Elton John and such, but is grunge pinball music? It's a Nirvana.
    123:48
    What does Rage Against the Machine? Is that cringy? Or is that alternative? I don't know what that is. I don't know the answer anymore. Nirvana works. Alright, sorry. People would buy Nirvana, so I think it works even if one might instinctively not initially think that you want to shoot the ball around to... You think it works better or worse than Bon Jovi? It smells like spirit, but... I mean, Bon Jovi, as pinball music goes, it seems very, this is a very safe bet in some ways, but likewise, I can't think of a single, I don't read all the forums, Zach. I don't talk to and listen, you know, I talk to all the pinheads, I don't listen to all the pinball podcasts. Did anyone ask for Bon Jovi? I don't believe so. This reminds me of when there was the rumor going around that JJP's ownership wanted Bob Marley. Oh, yeah, the Bob Marley. Nobody asked for Bob Marley and nobody asked for Bon Jovi. Nobody asked, even though they're both great artists. Nobody asked. You know what they did ask for, Zach? What did they ask for? They asked for Fleetwood Mac.
    124:51
    Praise everything they did. You want to do Dab Rock? There you go. Come on. Do Fleetwood Mac. We will collab together. We will do a Fleetwood Mac. Okay, let's jump into Bon Jovi. What do we know about this game? We know a lot. We don't know too much, maybe. Yeah, we just announced, they just announced this game. I was wanting to tell people, follow along, as we're talking about this game, you can always follow along, look at the official pictures. Ken and Greg did a great interview over at Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast. They did a video interview of this game and the creators, so go check them out.
    125:28
    Everybody's got to do a band pin. The people who made this game, Design David Van Ness. Art, John Bergeron again, Johnny Crap came back for this one.
    125:40
    And that's all I know offhand. My apologies to the team there. I don't have all the information at this point right now. Even though this is the launch there, just go with me there.
    125:53
    Let's jump into the artwork. Looking at this artwork. This is a different vibe. This feels like the JJP's GNR. This feels like, it almost feels like Data East G&R. Are you thinking Playfields and looking at Bon Jovi down there at the floor now that is composed? It seems like it's supposed to be dated.
    126:18
    Yeah, I think so. The cabinet art looks like Johnny Craft did his illustration of young Jon Bon Jovi with a lot of the gig posters and the album art. Yeah, all the backlash. Yeah, lots of, this kind of felt a little bit, although diversified obviously, but yeah, getting back to Guns N' Roses. Yeah, a lot of album art, montaging going on on the cabinet.
    126:46
    That's what makes me feel like it's like that. My reaction to the art package is this is very safe. Like cabinet-wise and stuff. I think this was a very – yeah, I think it's logical. It's safe. It's well put together.
    126:59
    I think it's visually pleasing. It doesn't turn me off. It doesn't wow me. Yeah. Playfield-wise, going with that more old-school style is interesting. I think that's kind of cool. It's a little kitschy. I don't know if lots of people are really going to love it. But, you know, having the big, like his guitar kind of as the featured art on most of the middle of the play field and stuff. You know, we've talked before. I know you're a real big fan of having like a big set piece rather than like lots of little heads around and stuff. Yes, I like the big set. This leans more into that, and I think here it works pretty well.
    127:36
    Yeah. Look, I don't know about the 90s drawing of Bon Jovi down there at the Flippers. That's still, I think most people aren't going to care for that. It feels kind of almost like Rush. Rush was bad, but I remember Rush with the... It's kitschy. This is kitschy. I mean, because again, then we start having some photos of the band through the years and stuff as we move up the play field. It's okay.
    128:01
    When we talk about... the artwork is whatever. It's not blowing my socks off. It's fine. Toys Mechs features like that. So, Dennis, jump into what you're, because you gave me something one of your first impressions. I was like, oh, damn, I can see that now. Well, the big thing that's going to stand out, I think, to people is going to be the heart and dagger there.
    128:27
    It's the heart and dagger, which is a magnetic ball catch, and it serves as a diverter. It's three level, which is cool. Yeah. But that being said, you're going to see it. You're going to see its position, and you're going to think Rush. The ramp thing in front of it. Yeah, I mean, it's practically where the Rush shot is. The toy itself will thus also remind you of Lord of the Rings, Ring Shot, though not necessarily. And it's kind of a time machine Rush where the ball stays in there. It can do multiple things. Again, it's like, so it can go up, it can hold the ball while it lifts, but it's definitely, I don't want to use the word safe too much, but this. This is a safer game. I'm with you on that. There's so much about barrels in the world under glass that I felt like I see when I see their game. And then I see this and it feels derivative.
    129:19
    Like they've got the three ball, they called it on the flyer, the steel horse three ball lock, which is a hidden magnet back orbit that can divert the ball into a vertical up kick that feeds a physical three ball lock. I'm pretty sure I've seen this done before. Again, I don't expect every pinball game to innovate, but for a game, like, because they're doing music instead of a world under glass, how, you know, the question becomes, how do you convey the world of music under glass? Do you do full G and R and you make it feel like an actual stage show? No, they've gone more of the traditional route here of trying to take elements from albums, maybe a little more like Elton John, a little, you know, taking elements. This thing does light up like a Christmas tree more than any other game. It's the crazy light shows. And I think the idea with the two, they've got the two little mini flippers in play here in addition to the standard two flippers at the bottom. Hold up, hold up. The shot geometry I think is kind of interesting. You said standard flippers at the bottom. Well, they're lightning flippers technically, but. Who does that? That's cool. They came out with Lightning Flippers game in 2026? The Bram Stoker Dracula? What is this? That is madness. Now, I kind of like that. I do like that. I still don't know if there's actually a bigger flipper gap here, though, or if they shorten the gap and just use Lightning Flippers for space reasons. So that's why I'm super excited about it. Because also, is that a center post below the ball save light? Yes. Yep. It's a center post. Okay. Now, I respect that. The layout's actually, I think, kind of interesting here. It's one of the highlights for me, yeah.
    131:05
    So, there's the flipper in the left out lane to fire it back into. What do you think of that? That's one of the, like, because I'm mixed on this game.
    131:16
    Ultimately, it's a barrels game. I can see what they're doing. It's going to be a phenomenal game. It's going to be good. But I'm mixed on the theme. I'm mixed on the looks of it. I'm mixed on a lot of things. Do we need a Bon Jovi game? So I'm not here saying this is the second coming. There are some things that stand out that I love, and believe it or not, I do love that. I love that whole crowd surfing, jumping back into the thing. I like that it actually lets you shoot a shot into the – so that part – I like that. Otherwise, I – you know, I remember flipper ball saves from Zacharia pins by Sarfala. So, and they are just kind of like a, the ball drains so quick, I mean, it could be kind of like the Jedi ball save in the new Star Wars trilogy game, where people feel frustrated by it. This, it's a question of how quick does it drain? Do you feel like you, or is it going to be like that? Is it going to be like Foo Fighters where it felt like you really did have a good chance? This is uncanny X-Men to me. It's this, it's, hey, if you let it go past that flipper, you're going to lose the ball. But if you time it just right, you can get it back into play. I think it makes sense to the theme. So this is one of the standout features to me that sets it apart from other games. I like that. And it's called that as the jump ramp that it's going off of. Hence the crowd surfing. I like that. Yeah. And what's this loop-de-loop thing? Captive Ball, like loop-de-loop.
    132:41
    It's bizarre looking. I like it, but I don't know how it kind of works. So that's kind of fresh and different. I just like the layout. Bear was such a good job of just giving you different shots on the layout that don't feel the same. Granted, the placement of the main toy, that gives me total response. Yeah, so my overall takeaway is I do think that the layout looks interesting to shoot, whether it'll be fun or not. I want to try it. I like that it does actually, as I start to drill down, just feel like those aspects are different. I'm surprised that none of the toys actually look all that, you know, different. Yeah, because it's like, what are you going to do for a theme of Bon Jovi? Like, what are you going to bring toy-wise? I don't know. They have a lot of ball locks, which is always good for us Pimble people. We like physical ball locks, and they have that in spades here.
    133:39
    But I love the freaking lighting on this. Just believe me when I say it. Yeah, but I don't like talking about lighting because nobody screws up lighting anymore. Really good point. But like even the Bon Jovi sign in the back, that seems simple, but I really like that. I like the size of it. I like it. It's almost like the Kiss Topper. And you got our blades, you know, helping it feel lived in on the sides and stuff. It's not just black. I mean, they got the usual barrels touches that help, I think, make it be as immersive as it can be. For me, barrels is becoming like that. I can bank on them making an awesome, beautiful, detailed game. They're becoming that JJP-like for me where I'm like, regardless of the theme, regardless of the toy, it's going to be spectacular to look at. So that would be my biggest compliment for barrels. I'm not worried about that. It's just my expectations for barrels is higher than I have for a lot of people. So that's why it may sound mixed here. For example, like the powder coat, for some reason, whoever's picking out powder coat over at Barrels, they need a raise. The powder coats like Winchester may be the best powder coat package in all of pinball. This is reminiscent to that.
    134:54
    It's stunning, and they're spending more time and energy and probably money on simple details like that. Same with the apron. I love the little details of the levers on the apron for that amp kind of thing. The levers move up and down. Remember Winchester, how the Ouija board kind of thing lit up. Oh, yeah, yeah. So they're doing the extra little things that it's going to be hard to walk up to this thing and not stand out as something special to everything else. But from a pinball, pinball perspective, not really the theme that I'm looking for.
    135:29
    Artwork is fine, but that's what kind of bums me out about this whole deal. But yeah, they're still going to have the evergloss, high gloss, rad cow kind of things on the side. Another bummer for me, back panel LCD.
    135:45
    That's been a barrel's thing. We got that in all games. We got it in Pepper's Ghost in Winchester, but we got interactive on Dune, Labyrinth. Not here.
    135:58
    Now, they said that it doesn't always call for, didn't really call for this theme. I don't know if I believe that. I think if anything, the things they want to add are kind of blocked so much so that it seems like an afterthought. So why put the money into the backboard LCD? My argument would be because that's your thing. That's part of what helps identify your gains from others. Do that and then anybody else that does that because it's a brilliant idea is kind of trying to take your thunder.
    136:24
    Don't let off the gas now with that thing. So I would have liked to have seen that at the backboard. You know what I'm talking about?
    136:32
    Yeah, I think so. Sorry, I was re-reviewing some of the video footage to try and understand exactly how the captive ball thing works. Okay, so yeah, it looks like it's just designed to allow you to use the captive ball to hit a spinner and then it just drops back into position. I think it goes up top and drops back into position. Sorry, it goes real quick, so it's hard to tell. You can just rip that thing then. Yeah, that's pretty – I'll actually say I think that's more clever than a lot of – Most of the ball locks are things like I'm getting shadow vibes, you know, where balls are getting grabbed and then thrown into something or thrown into another thing that then up kicks just so it can drop down to kind of give you a quasi-Godzilla without having to have an entire building come down sort of thing. Again, all fine, but not, you know. Nothing revolutionary here. No, no, and again. Breaking the mold. I think that's fine. It's just they're also not very visually interesting, though, is maybe where that's kind of. They're more mechanical in nature. Yeah.
    137:34
    Yeah, I'm with you there. We don't know. I mean, sound of this game is going to be. I mean, if they're playing the songs, that's what you're looking forward to on this game. I think that Bon Jovi wanted this game made.
    137:49
    Hopefully I'm not speaking. But I think that Bon Jovi was looking for. What band doesn't want to be in a pinball machine? Absolutely. But there's only certain amounts that make sense for them to even have that discussion. So that's how big Bon Jovi is. Animation display, I don't know. Pricing, I don't even, again, I know this is launch and technically at launch I do know, but go with me here. I don't know what the pricing is. How do you think this thing will sell?
    138:17
    What do we want to compare to? I'll say that. I'll put it this way. Okay, yeah, then I'll do that. I think this sells worse than Dune. Oh, okay.
    138:27
    All right. But not much. Let's say Dune 800. Yeah, I'll say this is going to break five. OK, so you think it sells more than Winchester? Yes. I think this will sell probably between six and eight hundred. If it wasn't for that barrels reserve, because I'm with you, if the rules are good, as they have been spectacular on the previous barrels games, then I'm with you. Yeah, it's going to sell that many. It's a music pin, I'm assuming. We're just going to play songs. We're not going to go through a story. People aren't going the Muad'Div adventure or trying to win the story, like the moments of Labyrinth. It's just a stage show. One of the good things that was cool, though, is Fainess was telling me that, sure, they have concert footage and stuff, too, but I think they have some music video footage, too. That would be, because we don't see music pins do that. They don't get the rights of the music video. Sure, but generally speaking, with very few exceptions, exceptions like Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, exceptions like Foo Fighters, it's not a story. And because of that, I feel the immersion is never there the same way. The whole, like, I think band pins are better location pins than a lot of things. Or casual, casual playing pins. But there's a reason why you hear people got to the point where they were like, why do we have to keep having more band pins? And you never heard people going, why do we have to have yet another movie pin? It's like, it's different, right? Band pins almost always have the same fundamental structure. You pick a song. Maybe the song changes the rules or the shots you have to do, but you just pick a song and you play through the game. And the game is playing songs. And oh, hey, you got to do some special. It's not like go and we'll do three Guardian mows and then we get to do Cherry Bomb. And it's like it holds them back. I think that's why there's the frustration. I'm kind of signing up to all barrel stuff just because it's just I love the looks and the feel of these games. They just look so damn good. And they're so bad. They have all the damn options like a spooky game. And all the options are already on them. I love it.
    140:41
    Okay. Production timeline. I mean, I think they'll probably start making these sooner than later because I don't know what else they're going to be building. Because they're pretty much, they've built pretty much all their dunes. They've built all their Winchester kind of thing. So, and again, no different models. Barrel's going to stick to their one model fully packed. I should have one of these. Hopefully, hopefully we'll get one soon. We'll do some media on it, stream it. I want to get my hands on this thing to really. Bon Jovi, this could be the greatest game ever. Right now, I'm tempering my expectations on what this is. But we're halfway there.
    141:20
    Eh, might be a little bit of a prayer. But as always, if you're looking to order a Bon Jovi game yourself, I think this is going to be a heavy, maybe a women's flock to the Bon Jovi. They love the Bon Jovi, right?
    141:35
    They get all hot and bothered by the Bon Jovi. I think that's the whole thing. Back in the 80s, I don't think I'm telling anybody's secret here. Bon Jovi played to the ladies and to some dudes too, but he's sexy.
    141:52
    I think he's the women's kind of, they like the Jovi. But if you're wanting to like the Jovi yourself, maybe you have a spouse that wants the Jovi. Go to FlippinOutPinball.com, order yours today, or email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H at Flipp, the letter N out, pinball.com. Are you a reserve member? Remember, even if you are a reserve member, damn it, you can still buy from your dealer. We can still guarantee you'll want to. Why not? We know how many games we're getting. Well, we'll guarantee you won. Support Barrels by giving them the $75. Support Flippin' Out by giving us the sale. Then everybody's happy. Because Barrels, you know, they just created this so that everybody can come together and get swag and events and stuff. Do them that service. Hell, I'll get you a membership for you. Give us the sale. Is that fair to us? Maybe that's a promotion we should do. I'll sign you up to the membership. It in no way sounds desperate. That's right. I'll sign you up to their membership so you can get the T-shirts. Give me the sale.
    142:55
    We've got to thank some people. Speaking of ladies being crazy over Bon Jovi, ladies are crazy for our Screaming Goat Club members too.
    143:05
    Absolutely. Absolutely, like Rodney. Bobcat. Yeah, Bobcat. I could see him being in a band, the Bobcat. Yeah, Jossie and the Bobcats. I don't think that works. What about Rob, the Panther? The Bobcat and the Panther start a band. Do you think Rob would be, what instrument would Rob play in a band? The bass?
    143:36
    Just cool. Okay. Thank you, Rob, for the support. Frankie. He's a guitarist. Mama. Frankie is a guitarist. The Falcon.
    143:52
    Charlie, I love you. Ding dong and thank you. He's definitely on the, what is it, the chimes? What are those things? Sound bells. He's the bell. Do, do, do. Yeah.
    144:06
    William. The dude. What does the dude play? The dude, I don't know, would play an instrument. I don't know if the dude needs to. He's just sitting in a lawn chair up on stage with them all. I am very busy, as I imagine you are. His instrument of choice would be a doobie. Even though William, I don't think, partakes.
    144:34
    Adam Papa? Thank you so much. What? What would Adam be? Leave focus. You are my papa! With a baby on, baby Bjorn, singing backup. What? I'm talking about, yeah. Fasha! Papa. Ted! Red and Ted.
    144:57
    The Red October. Still be dumb as that. That's the best one. It's the best one of all of these. Just wait. Dennis is pitching one for this next new guy. All right. The Red October.
    145:11
    Red and Ted. Thank you for the support. Would he be a roadie? I think he would be the roadie. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Set up the lights and stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Behind the scenes, under the water. Mm-hmm. One ping.
    145:28
    Davis. I love you, Costanza. He is our Costanza. Appreciate the support. Davis, what would Davis be doing? Why couldn't you make me an architect? You know I always wanted to pretend that I was an architect.
    145:44
    Synthesizer, maybe. The synth? Okay. Yeah. Okay, I get that. I was going banjo, but I'll go synthesizer. Doug? Sweet, sweet Douglas.
    145:58
    Yeah, that's right, gopher. Maracus. Cha-cha-cha. Cha-cha-cha-cha. Thank you. Thank you, Dennis, for that. Wally. Oh, we love you, Wally. We've got rid of you as a few car salesmen. Now you're just that little lovable robot.
    146:22
    Wally. That's right. I know. Yeah, you're definitely doing electronics. You're doing all that stuff. We'll even give you merch. You're doing merch, too. The band T-shirts and everything. Sweet Wally. Well, if he was a robot, he would be doing trash pickup.
    146:43
    Trash compactor. Wally. What would we do without you, Wally? Wally, hopefully you're in the next happy hour hangout. Hey, that's coming up this Wednesday. This Wednesday at 8 p.m. Central. Be there. Patreon.com slash the pinball show. So sign up at the Nordman or the Screaming Goat Club levels. And we have a new Screaming Goat Club. I wore my goat shirt. I did. Shirt off the goat. That's a nice looking polo. It is. It's a nice one. We have a new Screaming Goat Club member. Love this guy. With most of my heart. I don't want to say all my heart. People know I'm lying. With most of my heart. He's a big collector. He's got a big collection. He's got good taste, too. Really good taste. But we didn't know. We don't. The one thing I know about this guy, because you pitched me something that was so deep on a level. Tell everybody what you pitched this guy. What's his nickname? What is he? Because I was like, what in the hell is that? He is ours. I know you like animals, Zach. He's the Inca turn. It's like the Red October all over again. No, the Inca Tern. The Inca Tern. Yeah, all along the coastal areas of South America. Peru.
    148:12
    I didn't know where Dennis was going. Vandaria, Ecuador, Chile. Who doesn't know about the Inca Tern? The Inca Tern. This is a bird. Right? A fowl. It is a bird. So you get messed up by a falcon. What does this animal have going for? So we looked it up a picture and Dennis is working on different levels here. So we looked up this beautiful bird, but this bird looks as if it has a mustache, right? Yes. Yep. So this is this Justin feller that is our dude, Justin here. You're the Inca Tern. I'll never remember Inca Tern. I gotta write that down. I think you will. That's why we have notes. Yes. Inca Tern, I am sorry for that horrible nickname, but go with us. This is really cool. This guy, he rubs things in people's faces. Not like on a legal level. That'd be weird. But I was sending this guy, what was it? No, it was Transformers. I think Justin was getting a Transformers LA. He said, hey, Transformers LA, got great news for you. This is me typing as I speak real loud and emphatic.
    149:22
    Backspace, backspace. You've got Transformers coming, my friend. Get happy, get horny. It's on its way. Free shipping. Bye, bye, bye. And he was like, I'm out of town at the moment. I'm on a vacation, a Caribbean vacation. And then he proceeds to send me pictures of said vacation. And this was weeks back when I was really due for a vacation. And it got me a little crusty, got me a little jealous. I was happy for him, but not happy for me. It was beautiful. And then he sent me a picture. This is the one that rubbed it in of him sitting like in this lawn chair, all snug. And like he was probably trying to be nice. I interpreted it. I projected it as smoke. And he was all like smiling with his shirt off. It wasn't like showing us, but he was like he was enjoying life on the beach as he should be. And the only thing that stuck out to me was how wonderfully happy he was. But he had one hell of a stache, a mustache that would bring envy upon most of men and women. It's like what are the women? They're like the stache guy. Burt Reynolds? Yeah, Burt, yeah. He can be, that's his little pseudo nickname here. He's Burt Reynolds or the, what's the other mustache guy back in the 80s? Tom Selleck. Tom Selleck got a mustache that's more popular than him. He's got a longer set list.
    150:45
    Where do you think Tom Selleck's mustache has been? If you were a fly on the wall of that mustache, Dennis. Oh, that little broom has been a lot of places, my friend.
    151:00
    Yeah. Now, I don't know if Justin Stachio has been to all of those places, but it's thick. So Dennis was reaching down, finding animals with mustaches. So the Inca Tern is what we're going with this week. We'll see what pops up in the next episode. And you'd appreciate it with your Tom Selleck references because the Inca Tern is a plunge diver. Oh, well, I love your face when you know you did something good. You're like, how about that?
    151:31
    I've weaved a lot of gold this episode. I feel like you've only appreciated about 30% of it. I only catch a level. That's being gracious, I feel. But now I'm thinking of the travels of Tom Selleck's stash. Man, do you think that thing has a smell to it? Is he alive still? If he's dead, it definitely has a smell. I don't know if they still are doing that show Blue Bloods that was on CBS I think. It's actually critically acclaimed that show. Yeah, no, I think that's his show. I think he's on that. I don't know if he stars in it or what. I was attracted to Selleck back in the 80s and I wasn't even born. So nicely done.
    152:08
    A reminder. Thank you again, Justin, and for all of you Screamy Goat Club members. We've got to hang out at an upcoming show. Let's do it. Discord though. Right now in Discord we're talking about all the new releases. You've got to go to our Happy Hour Hangout. Sign up at the Nordman or the Screaming Goat level this Wednesday at 8. Hopefully this will be out by then, but I think it should be.
    152:33
    Where can people catch you? If they want to email me directly, they can always email eclecticgamerspodcasts at gmail.com. Email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com as well. Follow, like, and subscribe. Please, if you're watching this on video, do us as well. Just hit the follow button. Dennis, we did reach our 1,000 viewer threshold or 1,000 subscribers. We've done it. All right, we can retire the YouTube now.
    152:59
    How is Joel doing? Did he get to the 10,000? I'm helping carry the bags, too. I'm looking it up. 9.9. Wow. We're only like 100 away. Does it count if you do the lift for him? Well, it's a team approach here at Flippin' Out Pinball. So, yeah, I'm doing some of the reels, the first impressions, first looks, that kind of stuff.
    153:25
    Exclusive video. But he's doing a good, what was he streaming last week? Was it John Wick? John Wick. He's got a tutorial coming out. He's been doing Transformers, Sonics. He's been on it. I think he's going to have Transformers L.E. back. Hopefully we'll get a Bon Jovi. Hopefully we will get him. I wonder what comes first to streaming or to my studio to film. Bon Jovi? Or Dungeon Crawler Carl? Or Stern Anniversary Game? Or Yukon Yeti? What the hell happened to Yukon Yeti? I forgot about it. What the hell? I think they're shipping some out. What the hell am I doing not getting one of the first?
    154:11
    I give up. You joined the UConn Reserve Club. I didn't give up about a ton of those things. Flippin' Out. We got a plug Flippin' Out like Tom Selleck's mustache be plugging people back in the 80s.
    154:33
    Sermon House, when I think of Spies, all I think of Sermon House, Sermon House, Sermon House, when I buy, buy, buy, I buy from Sermon House.
    154:44
    Product showcase this week is the DCC. It's what all the kids call it. And the BJ. Whoa, whoa, Bon Jovi. Well, we can't do BJ because of Beetlejuice. What are we going to do?
    154:56
    JBJ? What are we going to do? Or just Jovi? Just Jovi, I think, yeah. Okay. Bon Jovi, Dungeon Crawler Carl, Ender's Game if you will, if you're nasty. But DCC is where it's at this week. Bon Jovi is where it's at. Order Bye Bye Bye from Flippin. Bye Bye Bye! Please do. If you're going to consume all the content, we're helping you ship trading in games, so just show us some love. Show us some love. Tales of the Arabian Nights remake, order that, Sonic the Hedgehog, Transformers, Harry Potter, all the hotness, Pokemon, minus Pokedex, The Walking Dead remastered, all of the games. Trade in your game. Do it. Everybody else seems to be doing it and they're loving it. You know what? Most people that trade a game with us, Dennis, they trade a subsequent game. That's how happy they are with that process. And now we have announced that flipping out Pimball, Jodi, she's doing all of our shipping. So we're making some big leaps with shipping. And pretty soon we will be shipping in ways that some of you weren't even expecting. So follow, like, and subscribe to that as well. Straight down the middle, we'll do videos at some point again.
    156:12
    And go check out Flipping Out YouTube. We're close to 10,000. The podcast with Kenny Gregg, that video that he did with barrels. Go check that out. And I think he did a first impressions on, they did first impressions on DCC and the multimorphic stuff.
    156:29
    Joel is, I think he's got a Batman 66 tutorial. He came out with a Sonic tutorial. He did a, what other tutorials? He's done like a Tales of the Arabian Nights remake tutorial, John Wick tutorial. Dude's on it. First impressions, Joel. People love the Joel. They do love the Engelberth.
    156:50
    And I think that's about it. Teach them something. I would say, you know, when considering doing pinball releases and you're thinking about music pins, you manufacturers, ask yourself, why have I picked what I've picked and why isn't it Fleetwood Mac? Buy, buy, buy!
    157:11
    The Rumors album alone would be your art and just sell it. Like, I don't know. I don't know why you're making this hard with your Marlies and your Jovies and I don't understand. And always practice safe pinball. God damn it, Den Den. Stop making so much sense. It's a good one though. God damn it, Den Den. It's reasonably clever. Someone would probably have to do that. God damn it, Dennis. Or would you go, God damn it, Den Den. I was thinking on the fly because donut is two syllables. Dennis probably works, but din din people like to hear. See you guys.