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79: Axe-Man vs Avenue Tar

Pinball Party Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 9m·analyzed·Sep 13, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Deep dive on Stern X-Men reveal and JJP Avatar pricing amid market downturn concerns

Summary

Two pinball enthusiasts discuss the newly revealed Stern X-Men pinball machine and Jersey Jack's Avatar game. They debate X-Men's theme strength, Jack Danger's innovative offset flipper layout, concerns about the reveal stream's limited gameplay showcase, and criticism of Avatar's high pricing ($12-15K) relative to its theme appeal. Core tension: strong game design vs. market saturation, pricing constraints, and thematic risk in a contracting collector market.

Key Claims

  • X-Men has pervasive cultural presence across comics, animated series, fighting games, and films, making it stronger as a theme than people acknowledge

    medium confidence · Unnamed co-host discussing X-Men's cross-media presence in 80s-90s pop culture

  • Every released game in the current market is losing minimum $1,000 in secondary market value, except Jaws LE which shows different depreciation pattern

    medium confidence · Unnamed co-host on secondary market pricing trends

  • Avatar CE will price at $15,000 with three-color UV ink feature, positioning it as extremely expensive relative to theme appeal

    high confidence · Direct statement comparing Avatar CE pricing to hypothetical lower-priced tiers

  • X-Men streams do not convince non-buyers to purchase; they only risk negative impressions and are net-negative from sales perspective

    medium confidence · Unnamed co-host opinion on marketing effectiveness of pre-release gameplay streams

  • Jack Danger's favorite game is Deadpool and elements of it (turnaround shot across playfield, Danger Room design) appear in X-Men

    medium confidence · Co-host observation of design patterns across Danger's portfolio

  • Avatar's lower playfield is a negative feature that feels mandatory and skill-less, comparable to shaking an ice cream ball

    medium confidence · Co-host critique of Avatar mechanical design philosophy

  • X-Men Pro model is better value proposition than Premium/LE; does not include finger-flick shot that Premium has

    high confidence · Co-host analysis of tier differentiation

  • JJP's recent games suffer from mushy flipper feel; Elton John addressed this issue and it's hoped Avatar will continue that fix

    medium confidence · Co-host discussion of JJP flipper mechanics across recent titles

  • Days of Future Past is an iconic X-Men storyline appearing in original 1981 comics, 1990s animated series, and live-action films

Notable Quotes

  • “it just turns what you love into work... you look at these pinball designers like Jack Danger, he's somehow taken what he loves and turned it into a job that doesn't seem to have ground him out yet”

    Unnamed co-host (Host A) @ Early segment — Sets thematic tone about designer passion vs. burnout; frames X-Men discussion in context of Danger's career trajectory

  • “X-Men's been around a lot longer... you can like Godzilla without ever having seen a Godzilla movie just because it's kind of like a part of the pop culture zeitgeist”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ Theme discussion — Core argument for why X-Men theme resonates despite licensing being less A-tier than Star Wars/LOTR

  • “the streams don't do as much positive as you'd think... I find it from a sales perspective, I don't think they're going to convince anyone to buy the game that hadn't already convinced themselves... the only way you can go is down”

    Unnamed co-host (Host A) @ Stream discussion — Criticism of reveal stream strategy; suggests marketing downside risk

  • “Would you put this in your house for $12,000? Get the fuck out of here. Of course not.”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ Avatar pricing discussion — Visceral rejection of Avatar pricing relative to theme; core market sentiment issue

  • “It's Avatar, which is... it's not a like a conversation starter. So what they're asking is, well, would you put this in your house for $12,000?”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ Avatar theme discussion — Articulates JJP's core problem: weak theme + premium pricing = poor value proposition for collectors

  • “Imagine if what they just did and you looked up and said fucking Star Wars or it said Harry Potter. Then yes, then it's like, all right, I'm going to give you a stupid amount of money.”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ Avatar theme counterfactual — Clear statement that Avatar's problem is exclusively theme selection, not game quality

  • “If this was $9,500... I'm probably seriously looking at this. I'm very much considering it... I think that they're doing so much right”

Entities

Jack DangerpersonX-MengameAvatargameStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack Pinball (JJP)companyFoo Fightersgame

Signals

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jack Danger's X-Men features non-Italian bottom layout with offset flippers and Danger Room mini-flipper mechanic; departure from standard flipper positioning designed to create unique playfield challenge and engagement

    high · Direct discussion of 'non-Italian bottom' and 'offset flippers'; Danger Room described as mini-flipper area with ramp path back to left flipper

  • ?

    product_strategy: X-Men Pro model positioned as strong value tier; Premium tier adds sentinel hand toys and finger-flick shot but lacks significant gameplay differentiation; hosts see Pro as target tier for current market

    high · Discussion of Pro delivering 'everything you'd want' vs. Premium tier premium features; explicit statement that Pro tier is priced below $10K

  • ?

    content_signal: Host argues pre-release gameplay streams are net-negative marketing: incomplete code, weak callouts, poor player demonstration, and non-optimal video medium undermine purchase intent

    medium · 'streams don't do as much positive as you'd think'; 'I don't think they're going to convince anyone'; 'only way you can go is down'; comparison to Foo Fighters having different callouts at stream vs. final version

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts express market contraction concerns: all recent games depreciating $1K+, prices rising while collector budgets fixed, secondary market weakness, spacing/money constraints limiting future purchases

    high · 'we're in a slump'; '$1,000 minimum on every game across the board'; 'space and money are going to be limited from here on out for forever'; discussion of hesitancy despite game quality

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.207

0:00
Hey. What's up? Welcome back! Basically all I was saying is, you know, they always say, if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. I do think that is kind of bullshit, right? Because like, it just turns what you love into work. But you look at these pinball designers like a Jack Danger, you know, that's why I was segwaying when I was talking to you. Because it's like, you look at him, and he just, he's somehow taken what he loves and turned it into a job that doesn't seem to have ground him out yet. You know what I mean? Like, I think you can see the excitement and passion in his work still. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. subset of people whether they like to admit it or not I'm not like overly confident in this but from what I've witnessed and talked to like people who get really into Many different things and it changes such as myself or you or you I mean you have to be into audio games like somewhat mechanical engineering
1:41
nerd shit pop culture shit movies, you know all the stuff that all of us are kind of into and I get heavily into stuff like this podcast for like a year and a half or music which kind of vacillates or home theater or video games but yeah like the if it was just do podcasting for like a living I don't know if what if the pay was right if I got paid what I did as a you know someone works in technical sales in a software company I'd probably actually yes I would absolutely love it all the time but Well, that seems like an upgrade, right? You're going to have a bad day no matter what you do, right? Yeah. Not every day is going to be great. No one loves their job every day. But in general, like if you, I'm not saying your current job is a janitor, right? But like if you're a used car salesman and you love pinball, pinball seems like an upgrade. Yeah. An interesting side note, and before we get into X-Men and Avatar and oh, guess welcome to Pinball Party, this is Steve and Joey from the Pinball Party. Zach and Jason, Pinball Party.
2:55
To the listeners that have listened, it's been a while. Remember oh so long ago, I got prescribed Ritalin. Remember this? Oh yeah, I've been wanting to hear all about this. And I was hesitant to take it because I was on the borderline. For an ADHD med kind of thing, but more so, I've asked for it because I've just like, hey, you know, maybe it'll help. I still never taken it. In fact, what I did instead was quit caffeine three weeks ago, cold turkey, just completely gone. And what that did, first, 10 out of 10, I highly recommend to anyone if you quit caffeine, it's the best once you get over the pure hell of a few days. And I was only on like 150 milligrams a day. And I only say like, but I know literally it's about 150 from drinking like three cups of half-caf. Because I'm very sensitive to it. And why I'm very sensitive to it, I have chronic migraines. I've always had them since I was like five years old. And there's a strong link between caffeine and migraines. And I hadn't had migraines in a few years. Even doing music and all that was pretty crazy. But guess what fucking came back after quitting caffeine? John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Knapp Arcade, 233 2 A lot of it's in my head. Anyway, so that's where I'm at, and I noticed so many changes with, like, excitement for things without caffeine. Everything's much more even keel, as one would expect. So, that's kind of my spoiler alert for this episode. X-Men Avatar, maybe sprinkle in a little PS5 Pro talk of, like, eh, eh, meh. What do you want to start with? Do you want to start with X-Men? As a heavily caffeinated person, I feel like, yeah, I think X-Men, you know, if we go chronologically, it was released first. And I do, I know we were talking about this, but I do feel like Stern did kind of eat JJP's lunch, right? Like, getting out ahead of Avatar, these two are going to be connected, right? Like, you're going to compare them against each other. It's just human nature. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I think here... Well, I think to level set where we are at, we've seen the reveal from like a week ago. We were going to record that but they were like, hey we don't have any details so like let's wait. There's the reveal, and there was just last night, big junk live stream of X-Men and then today was the 18 minute video from Jersey Jack so we got a little more and oh, and another side note, thank you Jersey Jack for the invite to come on site and see Avatar tomorrow, but The um you know it was literally the only day of the entire year I would not be able to make you know same thing they offer you know all expenses paid come on look come see the game and do all that amazing but uh it's my wife's 40th anniversary 40th birthday tomorrow surprise thing all that bunch of friends coming out of town literally couldn't make it so thank you for the invite um I had to pass but uh I know there's some other pinball media people on site & Yeah, I think everybody wants good pinball companies to succeed. I think, you know, Stern, they make good games. JJP, it's a lot of really passionate people and they make some cool products. So, I mean, nothing, nothing is negative or personal if you have any negative opinions. But like when these games come out, I mean, there's, there's like new podcasters every day, right? You know, there's, there's 12 new guys. It feels like every month. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I like X-Men. You know, I didn't read the comics a lot growing up. My wife actually did. The Jim Lee run in the 90s specifically, but I'm very well versed, I should say. I did read a lot of DC stuff, so, you know, X-Men adjacent, but whatever. This isn't like, look at my patch of, like, I'm justified. I fucking like X-Men, whatever. We all do. A lot of us do. So theme, great. It's not A-tier like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, but it's a non-issue. CraneDCideutanlDS on Youtube

high confidence · Co-host historical context on X-Men narrative selection

  • JJP invited co-host to visit Avatar site on upcoming date but he had to decline due to wife's 40th birthday surprise event

    high confidence · Personal disclosure by unnamed co-host during podcast

    • Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ Avatar pricing hypothetical — Suggests $3-6K price reduction would make game attractive despite theme concerns

  • “Imagine how much they would not fuck up all the animations, all the video... if this was X-Men with Jersey Jack”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ Theme + manufacturer hypothetical — Highlights JJP's animation/production strength applied to stronger IP would be compelling

  • “I feel like a lot of JJP games you get stuck where you're just in multiball all the time, ball save always running, just trying to grind through endless code”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ JJP game design critique — Systematic criticism of JJP's recent design philosophy and rule complexity

  • “I love X-Men... I would say if I was going to rate it objectively, I'd still say it's like a medium. Medium plus.”

    Unnamed co-host (Host B) @ X-Men theme rating — Balanced assessment positioning X-Men as solid mid-tier theme despite fan status

    • Days of Future Past
    product
    Deadpoolgame
    Lord of the Ringsgame
    Star Warsgame
    Godzillagame
    Jawsgame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Elton Johngame
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Black Knight: Sword of Ragegame
    Game of Thronesgame
    Congogame
    Bowen Kerinsperson
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Wonkagame
    Nightmare Castlegame
    Goldwinggame
    Zombie Yetiperson

    product_concern: Avatar's mandatory lower playfield criticized as skill-less, repetitive mechanical feature requiring shaking motion; hosts view it as detractor that makes ownership burden greater with each play session

    high · 'Who told them that people like lower playfields?'; 'you had to do it every time, every game you have to do that lower playfield'; comparison to ice cream ball shaking

  • $

    market_signal: Jaws LE noted as secondary market outlier not experiencing typical $1K+ depreciation; hosts uncertain about reasons but note differential pricing trends

    medium · 'Jaws LE, which doesn't make sense to me, doesn't seem to be getting hit as hard, and I don't know why. Maybe it'll just take longer.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Hosts value tension-building mechanics (upper orbit shots, difficult saves, center post moments) as essential to game greatness; concern that JJP's multiball-heavy design removes tension through extended ball saves

    medium · Discussion of Jurassic Park upper orbit shot building tension; critique that 'JJP games you get stuck where you're just in multiball all the time, ball save always running'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts value strong theme/narrative integration (LOTR modes tied to plot, Rings destruction objective) as essential to player engagement; cite Star Wars as cautionary example of missed storytelling opportunity

    medium · Extended discussion of Lord of the Rings narrative resonance; criticism that Star Wars didn't offer Luke/Han differentiation or Vader lightsaber duel mode

  • ?

    business_signal: JJP facing strategic challenge: strong production quality (animation, music, lighting) combined with weak theme selection and premium pricing limiting market appeal; hosts suggest lower price point or stronger IP would solve

    medium · Repeated discussion of 'A plus on the video, A plus on the marketing... then you find out it's $12,000 and you look up and it says Avatar'; hypothetical that X-Men with JJP would be compelling

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Hosts argue Avatar's IP selection (Pandora) fundamentally undermines product appeal despite technical excellence; weak pop culture resonance vs. Star Wars/Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings tier licensing

    high · 'Never in any of our conversations did any of us ever say, did you watch Avatar? Nor will it ever come up'; 'It's still Avatar, right? It's like the plot just isn't...'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: JJP addressed flipper feel issues in recent games (Elton John noted as improvement); hosts express hope Avatar continues this correction but concern remains about general JJP flipper handling

    medium · 'Elton John fixed it... I'm good for them'; discussion of 'everybody didn't like the way that JJP's really felt'

  • ?

    event_signal: JJP invited media personalities to on-site Avatar viewing event; podcast host received invite but had to decline due to personal commitment (wife's 40th birthday surprise)

    high · Direct statement: 'Jersey Jack for the invite to come on site and see Avatar tomorrow'; 'it was literally the only day of the entire year I would not be able to make'

    • 9:28
    Contributors John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I'm not a huge fan of the flipper layout thing, the non-Italian bottom as they say, this danger room thing. Anything off center like that kind of throws me for a loop. So my first impressions were like, oh, the art looks great, the video is great, it's Jack Dangerous, so probably great. from that video like ah that looks like foo fighter style where it's all over the place in a good way hidden shots that go through weird alleys and some some cool feeling of physics and my you know i text you right away like i wonder what that off center feels like um i'm in Here's the specially円ed Ballywin
    11:39
    It's a standard flipper gap. You know, I'm not as worried about that as you because I guess I like some of the classics that are a little bit weird. And this, you know, immediately I was trying to figure out what game this reminded me of. I started flipping through old games until I found Goldwing again. And I was like, oh, okay. And I was like, nice. And it's so I don't have a problem with that part of it. But I do think, you know, as far as the theme, you know, it's a good game. You kind of mentioned X-Men. We're the right age for this. Yeah. And I mean that like when you're comparing directly like let's say two themes like X-Men and Avatar, and I've heard some of the pinball community feel like they're basically the same. And I would very much disagree with that. X-Men's been around a lot longer and has, you know, one of those qualities where it's not exactly like Godzilla, but it's like a Godzilla. You can like Godzilla without ever having seen a Godzilla movie just because it's kind of like a part of the pop culture zeitgeist in its entirety. If you just think about X-Men when we were young, you know, you had the comics which were huge, right? Because there were so many huge name people doing them at the time. MacPharlan, Pwerk, Bad Fur Barber, 2004 Maybr Ub onto names The late
    13:22
    80s early n All the Marvel fighting games were just so phenomenal in the 90s and just unbelievable. But even that X-Men side scrolling beat them up like Turtles in Time or whatever your game is. Children of the Atom.
    13:43
    They're all phenomenal, but it just it buoys this theme so much higher than I read X-Men books, you know, or like I like the new movies with Hugh Jackman. I feel like it just has a place in just pop culture. And more than that, they picked a very iconic storyline, Days of Future Past, that exists in the first comic, you know, which I think is 81, I think, and then is also on the cartoon TV show. It's in the movie, right? The movies with the live action movies. This is a storyline that just keeps getting retold because people love it. I think the theme is stronger than people think, even if it's not a home run. I would still rate it kind of a... You know, I love X-Men, right? I mean, this is aimed at me, but I would say if I was going to rate it objectively, I'd still say it's like a medium. Medium plus. Yeah, medium plus. It's not Avengers Infinity Quest where you just don't care. Well, they missed the... Fuck. para en stretch de altura de las Bad What in the world is that haha what is it No, I don't want to talk about Avengers because it's just bad. Yeah, we don't need to get too into that. We'll try to stick to our guns here on this. Just, you know, shots and layout. Where are you at? What do you think? Well, yeah, let's just forego the before and after gameplay reveal because I think there's too much to talk about. It is. We're getting into the weeds. We're really... Yeah. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. For most normal people, I get it's the highest grossing movie ever, right? And Avatar 2 grossed a ton of money as well. Is it still the first one? Yeah, they're massively successful movies. But like, normal people can't name a character in the movie or even past that. Like, I also one time printed out, like I got into a debate, a real thick debate with someone that has left no cultural stamp on society. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Danny Kizrow, Stephen Kitzrow, Knapp Arcade, The X-Men Yeah, I gotta take this like this Pinball media hat somewhat no people via social media but I not fucking impressed I guess is what I getting at You know this is no at Is the game gonna be great Could be You know once it code 1 and I put all that Yes of course That being said like when it fully done yes I guess this opinion is more from a state of, we're in a slump. Slump so much that I've stopped podcasting for a while, don't know any games, prices are going down across the board. The Wally Winka Show, Knapp Arcade, Bally Williams, Straight Down the Middle, Bally Williams,
    18:09
    We have infinite money. We all get 10 games in our house. How does this rate? I'm in the like, can I justify losing? You know, you buy a pro for about seven grand or a premium for 9.5. These days, minimum $1,000 on every game across the board. The hottest stuff, Godzilla, Jurassic Park, Jaws, Foo Fight, anything, you name it, you will lose $1,000. Just that one single outlier of Jaws LE, which doesn't make sense to me, doesn't seem to be getting hit as hard, and I don't know why. Maybe it'll just take longer.
    18:49
    I miss Jaws. We'll talk about that later, I guess. I miss Jaws, but I think that's the last game I own as a walking dad. To your point, I get where you're coming from. You want to be excited, right? The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. jam hart reports
    20:03
    Busy playfield that looks like from an art standpoint, not a knock against the artist, just like these are just very nitpicky things, and a stream, which is not the way to test out a pinball machine. So again, I can put my hands on it and be like, I love this game. You know, could be that way. But from afar, I shut the stream off after about 10 minutes because I'm like, well, the callouts, especially from Gambit, wow, bad. The music did not, yeah, the music did not seem to fit. Not at all. We were talking about that. I didn't get it. I didn't have as much of a problem with the lounge music that you were talking about. It felt kind of like almost like it had this chill out synth-ish vibe to it. Yeah, which does not fit X-Men to me. I think they're just going for a low energy, like you're not in a mode kind of thing. The music that stood out more abrasive to me was some of the more guitar action-y stuff. I think they're trying to get it to meld with the X-Men cartoon theme music, which is like an all-timer. Oh, yeah. And I don't think it is. It didn't feel like it matched to me, right? Like it didn't seem like it would be on the same album, right? That was my feeling. Yeah. Um, even, even so it didn't fit, but the little snippets of didn't little in and it awesome. But when I heard Gambit's voice, I thought it was someone making fun of it. Like, what? Oh, that's real.
    21:33
    The couple of the call-outs, again, nitpicking. That's all this is. All I can do from afar. The stream did not do it any favors. And I was sure enough, because I didn't go into it with a negative mindset. I went into it like, oh my God, the guy who made Foo Fighters, who loves pinball, he's going to put a million percent into this. This is going to blow my mind. Tim Kitzrow, Steve Kitzrow, and like, you know, it starts and the costumes and the big dick and all the big junk, all that kind of shit. I'm like, all right, all right. And then it starts and I'm like, just like the air left out of a balloon. Like, oh man, none of this. And you've been listening to me for days now where I've been saying, I honestly, I can separate my opinions pretty well into different categories, right? John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Knapp Arcade, Ballywin, Straight Down the Middle, Ballywin, I don't think I would do it until I sold every LE because there's there's nothing to gain from them it will only be negative because we both know that the code is going to be number irrelevant 50% done whenever they show these streams there's very few call outs they're very repetitive they're sometimes not very good and don't make it to like if you look at like Foo Fighters right and you look at I haven't watched the original stream for that But you know that the callouts and everything are going to be astronomically different than the final version. So the streams don't do as much positive as you'd think. I find it from a sales perspective. I don't think they're going to convince anyone to buy the game that hadn't already convinced themselves. And I think the only way you can go is down. That doesn't mean I don't want them to stop. I actually like watching them and like seeing it, but I do think it's a net negative.
    24:01
    Spotlight The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Get them out into the wild and keep people interested in pinball, right? Like, ultimately the goal, you know, I mean, there's space concerns, there's monetary concerns, but also you're trying to just keep just it, the game of pinball moving. And I think that, you know, just to like, we'll try and I guess like pretend to be crossfire here or something. But like, I'm very contrarian on this because I think the game looks phenomenal. I do think that you bring up some points, but I can kind of hand wave them away to a certain degree because it, you know, Jack Danger's favorite game is Deadpool. And every game you see a little bit of Deadpool in it. Yeah, that left kind of turnaround shot that goes across the playfield comes back down underneath the flipper and over to the danger room, kind of like a like a Flintstones or something. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I've seen some games where you pay someone a more expensive price and if that's the case, ones in seem to be taxItimes. That's a newura that was released recently and who I hope that with this time ismakive down I can continue the project for a long time, considering this is a conversation around All of these big classic Steve Ritchie's, the shots are all exactly where you expect them to be. And it means that you can just play it and it just happens. I don't not want this to be different. I'm glad it's different. It's yeah, the sticking point of like if that off center thing is a non-issue, then it's a non-issue. Yeah, totally. It's the like, I'm sad for, yeah, I get sad for the fact that, That, you know, it's all so ordeal of like what they're up against is still that thing like to beat it more to death or something. They're up against a market that doesn't have money left to like people to be very cautious, has to blow you away. So to come out with like, hey, here's this thing like the animation is kind of like Avengers which you didn't really like. The callouts are like, well, it's all subjective. The art and the art's great. I think the art is great. I think they're good. It's, it's, to experience this game, um, like watching the, the center post in the stream was like it never really was a value, it just looked clunky, it didn't really look great. I, uh, it, uh, there was no clear indication of how the modes really work. Um, yeah, I could take an hour and like analyze everything and take, like do the work for me. If you're, if you're marketing this game, explain this game, explain why someone would want to The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. All of these games are not good at pinball, right? I guess Nick is there and he's good, but I'm just saying that it just brings me back mentally to when I really wanted Nels Cooper's Nightmare Castle, right? Which again, I think is fine at best right now, right? Like it has problems, but I like some things about it. But the reason I really wanted it really quite a bit back in the day was I played it with Bowen Kerins at what must have been Expo or TPF or something Okay. Back in the day and you know so I first off Bowen's a great player but he also did the rules for that game and we were playing it together and he blew it up and he made it look so easy and effortless and got to see a whole bunch that was there and it just immediately drew me in and I don't think you get that when the people trying to show you the game can't play it. True, and that's definitely part of it, but I don't think that's as big of an issue as it could be. We're like seeing the ball physics, like we're arguing about marketing here, right? Like I get that it has to be fun and exciting. Yes, I think it's a good call, but I mean to put an excuse of like, oh, I don't like it because they're, you know, they weren't playing that well. Like now I've played enough pinball to like, no, like, ah, I don't think that is great. You know what I mean? Well, I guess, I mean, to kind of keep it moving, because, I mean, we could probably talk about X-Men for another hour. My take on it is I really like the look of this game. I think Jack Danger killed it. I love how different it looks. I love the non-Italian bottom. I don't want that every time, right? But, like, I think it's all meaningful. I think the danger room, I think a mini flipper is dangerous, right? Mini flipper's dangerous. You got to use them correctly. You got to use them sparingly and not fuck it up. And it looks really smooth and fun and engaging. I'm excited to figure out what the hell that target does below the mini flipper that you can't hit. I don't know what that does. Okay. I, but I will say I am very excited to play this game. I'm sure I'll own one. Uh, I think it does look like a phenomenal game, but I don't see a ton of value in the premium and that's not a negative. I'm going to put that in the positive, positive category because I agree. I was looking for a great pro. I think this pro delivers everything that you'd want out of this game. If you want, if you're excited, I think the pro should have you very excited. And I think that's pretty good for people right now because the pro isn't, isn't 10 grand, right? Like, I think that's exciting. But to your point, I think space and money are going to be limited from here on out for forever. And I think that is gonna be tough. It's just, it's going to be tough. so that's kind of like my tied all together thing because we could break down all the shots but like i i think that the premium stuff is cool with the the sentinel hands but i don't like that type of stuff in godzilla with the bridge you know i'd put it in that category it gets it gets old it's not doing it for me in the way that i need it i don't even understand what the sentinel head does while it's down so i don't think it uh my my wrap up on I'm not doing it, not doing the shot by shot and all that. Going almost backwards, I agree that the pro, aside from the finger flicking it back on the ramp, which the pro does not have. I like that one. Yeah, everything else is like eh, it's fine. I think a pro will be great. I had the stream up, I had it in the background as reference while watching this, and every time the center post it doesn't do anything, it doesn't save the ball. 3 wearing them patterned I like the possibility that the off-center non-Italian bottom doesn't bother me and is in fact a net positive because that could totally be true. I do like other playfields. I like upper playfields when they're done right. I like Jaws, I like Foo Fighters. This Danger Room thing it seems like the ramp that goes back to the left flipper is consistent enough so that has me tentatively excited I think the art is actually I know I said it but it phenomenal I like the layout I think it really good Yeah the layout of everything is great The bones, as they say, are there for like a simple mode-based game with multiballs and a lot of Jack Danger type of cool shots. I just, I am not like, I have a feeling, and I've had a feeling for a long time that Metallica is going to be the one that I'm suddenly like, fuck yeah. Thank you for watching! The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. That sound is awesome. I think it's really good. I think I'm very optimistic of the rules because I really like the rules for Foo Fighters. And I like, so I think they'll get it right. And combine that with the fact that I do love the story of Days of Future Past. So I think that I'll be engaged with the story. Right? Like, and I think people, they undersell that, right? avatar What I, what, one of the most things I loved about Lord of the Rings was that, that like, some of the modes are so akin to the actual movie. Yeah, that's a great example. And it was also... Well, you care about destroying the ring, right? Like... Yes. Yeah, and even some of the other modes, escaping the ringwraiths, all that. And it was one of the biggest misses they did with Star Wars, which is, you have this opportunity to play as like, you know, Luke Skywalker training to be a Jedi, or fighting Darth Vader in like a lightsaber mode that's actually not Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader. What are you doing? Why wouldn't you do what people want? Which is, you know, be Han Solo, do some scoundrel shit, be Luke Skywalker, train as a big miss. But, yeah, they could do it great in here, they could do it great in The Matrix, or when they, you know, Harry Potter, that kind of thing where people actually give a shit. And Avatar, for those that do give a shit, which is, I don't think it would be as many, you know, I'll say this about Avatar. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry Kizrow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Well, it's one of those weird situations where, like, we are both AV guys, right? Yeah. And these movies, I think, they're, first off, it's James Cameron. Right. And he is really good at making things look and sound good, right? Like, that's his thing. And Avatar 1 and 2 are both kind of like AV porn, right? That's what I'm saying. They look gorgeous, and they sound gorgeous, and the music is great. And they remind me of just film in general. They do. I think they have a film quality to them in the sense that they really are experienced. It's like a theme ride. Yeah. I'd say that the problem is...
    39:30
    It's still Avatar. It's still Avatar, right? It's like the plot just isn't... It's kind of like a James Cameron,
    39:38
    like a best of, or like a remix, right? Because you get those, like the mech suits, like from John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Larry Kizrow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Knapp Arcade, And like we have speakers and all this stuff and we start talking like, oh, what do you watch while I'm watching, you know, the Martian or, you know, something Ridley Scott just looks phenomenal. Yeah. Never in any of our conversations did any of us ever say, did you watch Avatar? Nor will it ever come up like, oh man, it's never gonna happen. No. It's, uh, it's Avatar, which is, I think it's, it's similar in like, it's not a like, The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. So what they're asking is, well, would you put this in your house for $12,000? Get the fuck out of here. Of course not. No. And this is that weird thing where I just, man, I always want JJP to succeed, but it's like... What are you doing? Can someone please... And maybe this will be, look, there's a world where this game is so unbelievably good. It looks good. And then the theme is so unoffensive that it crushes it. Similar to like Pirates of the Caribbean. Nobody cares about Pirates of the Caribbean as a theme. No one. I like it better than this though, that's for sure. I do too, but that's because it's pirates, right? It's also like a film thing. There's a sub-genre there, I guess is what I'm saying. Something to buoy it a little bit. All that, but I'm just saying like it's at least on offensive enough where maybe the game is so good people are just like I don't care about the thing. I don't know if you can do that. I don't know if you can do that with $12,000. You can do that with like Black Knight Sword of Rage or like Game of Thrones or some of these where like the game trumps the theme, but $12,000. That seems like what Elton John is. People say the game's awesome. Like it's $12,000. The It's too expensive. What are you doing? What it is. I, like my problem with Elton John is, is just the price, right? Like And Avatar. Same with Avatar, right? Like I looked at, you know, you, we watched the thing today. You're kind of, I'm trying to process it and it is what I expected. A lot of like bioluminescent type of stuff trying to build into that world of Pandora. The music is phenomenal. Yeah. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Knapp Arcade, Ballywin, Straight Down the Middle, Ballywin, Not that I need that. I am not the mechanical toy guy. But I think if you're trying to make me buy a CE, and that's like, what, 15k? Yeah. Shouldn't something do something to the ball? Why are you telling me about a robot where its arm moves up and down? Does his arm touch the ball? No. Why is it? What is happening here? And then who told them that people like lower playfields? Who told them that? The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I've only played the, I've only gotten to the lower playfield in Congo a couple times and each time I'm like, yeah, it's cool. If I owned it, I'd probably hate it, but... Imagine you own it and you had to do it every time, every game you have to do that lower playfield. This is the equivalent of like shaking one of those ice cream balls, right? Like, you know, like, because there's no skill that it's just like, just shake that thing, just shake it. Cody levels Fallen in the Tamina World by DD
    45:43
    It's going to be weird and it's going to be $12,000. Or if you want three UV colors, it's $15,000. The thing of this is the game looks awesome. The UV looks awesome. They put a lot of thought into it, a lot of light, cinematics all over the place. It's going to sound like a million bucks and you're like, fuck yeah, I love this game. And then two things happen. You find out that it's $12,000 and you look up and it says Avatar. You're like, well, what the fuck? I'm not going to... No. This was like A plus on the video, A plus on the marketing, probably A plus on like the build quality and the lights is probably going to play. It's going to be like a little, you know, amusement park. Imagine if what they just did and you looked up and said fucking Star Wars or it said Harry Potter. Then yes, then it's like, all right, I'm going to give you a stupid amount of money.
    46:33
    I think we can go one further. I think this is, this is, um, if this was $9,500, let's go back in time a tiny bit. Oh, Game of Thrones, right? Or, uh, not Game of Thrones, Guns and Roses, right? The Guns and Roses pricing. Let's say they had a model that was, um, you know, nine, $9,500 and they had a, a standard, you know, they did for Wonka and, and all of those games. Let's say they had a standard edition and it was a standard Wonka back then. I want to say they were like $7,500 or something like that off the top of my head. They were a good price. You know, they were very reasonable. And you took out, well, in
    47:14
    for personal preference, let's say you took out the lower playfields. I'd buy one, probably. $9,500 no lower playfields? I think like, well, I'm saying the old standard pricing. Let's say it's like $8,000 and there's There's no lower playfields. I'm probably seriously looking at this. I'm very much considering it. Yeah, it's impressive. Yeah, I like it. It's a real option because I think that they're doing so much right. Their animations are stellar. The music is good. I don't like the sound effects in some of their recent games. They sound like a casino to me and I don't love it. But they do so much right. And then they hit you with these themes that either you hate or you don't care about. Why do they keep doing that? And then they're so expensive. It's $15,000 for the CE, which has the three, the cool three color UV ink, because they're doing a stranger things thing here. Yep. And, and I'm never paying, I'm never paying, I'm never paying you 15K for that. Never. I say this as a person who currently owns, do I own six, six pinball machines, seven pinball machines? I don't know. I own pinball machines. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. at scene
    49:30
    Oh, hmm. I would actually think about it. Because that's fucking X-Men with Jersey Jack. Imagine how much they would not fuck up all the animations, all the video. It would sound incredible. I don't know. I think, you know. What do you think? It's an interesting just like hypothetical because I think X-Men would immediately be one of the best themes that they've had. Right? Like, I guess it's tricky because Hobbit should have been a good theme. You can't blame them for that, right? I don't like the game, but I'm saying it should have been a good theme. It was a good theme. Lord of the Rings was huge. I don't love the movies, and I consider myself a Lord of the Rings guy. No, the movies are bad, but it's, yeah, it's a horrible trilogy of movies, but it's still in the, it still gives you the feels. I think Guns N' Roses is like a decent theme. It's like a good theme, but like the game, I just do not like the game, like the multiball. By the way, did you catch that this only has, I think, like two or three multiballs? The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. Another coin chance goes to Jeff Bernat
    51:16
    It's time for a That immense So You know, Jurassic Park. Oh, yeah, it is Godzilla. It's gnarly. Very difficult, you know, hitting that upper the upper right orbit shot on Jurassic Park while you're cradling up.
    51:40
    That is what makes those games good. It is. It builds tension right And I think that you need some of that tension to make a good game great And that does build for those moments It like a center post I don love a center post right I agree with you to some degree but I think if you can get that moment where you having a great game and you save a ball with the center post you going to feel good It going to have that immediate feel good moment And I feel like that easier to do in single ball play and some sparingly I'm a fan of pinball, pinball machine, and I feel like a lot of JJP games you get stuck where you're just in multiball all the time, ball save always running, just trying to grind through endless code, and I don't like it.
    52:29
    I hope that Avatar continues the tradition of not mushy flippers, if that's the roundabout way to say it, to just like Elton John fixed it. Yeah, you know, I think everybody didn't like the way that JJP's really felt. So, I'm good for them. I don't think everybody thinks that like you're a Stern guy or JJP guy. I don't know. I'm a pinball guy. I'd love for JJP to make a game that I felt like I had to buy from them. I think the price is definitely a factor for me because these prices are so high and I don't care enough about their games they're making. But that changes when they hit you, you know, just like, you know, like shot to the heart, right? Like they just like, they nail it, you know, like they're like, hey, Jason, what about a Bon Jovi pin? And you're like, I'm like, I'll take my money, bitch. Young Guns, Young Guns 2? Oh, man. Young Guns 2. But just being serious, like, you know, they come out and they hit you with something. It's like Big Lebowski. That's the perfect example of a pin, right? The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. It's making you love that game way more than you would if it was Avatar. The theme is definitely it. Going back to... It's weird. Oh no, I'm just saying, like, it's weird. If J.J.P. hit you with a... I don't know what it would be. For you it would be The Matrix, for sure. Yeah, come on. And if they hit me with something... I don't know what it would be. Maybe Fifth Element? Maybe Then I'm an Idiot? You know? Sure. Man, I can't believe that still has the hold over most people. All over most people, Fifth. I like Fifth Element, but I don't love it. I don't get it, dude. I don't get you. For being an AV guy, Fifth Element should hate you. I think that's the point. That's the point. On all the online forums, people jam it down my throat like, that's the movie, do what that's like. Nah. I mean, yeah, okay, but I don't know. It seems like a forced sci-fi movie that we're trying to be sci-fi and this. I don't fucking care. I don't know. It just doesn't do it for me. Yeah. X-Men though. I think long term because of where we're at that the premium slash LE does not give enough over the premium that I think the pro will be the one that most you'll see mostly on the secondary market like a year that most people will be buying because of the market they're in right now. Premiums lose more even than pros now. Like if you find any great premium for or find one, if you find any great premium for a premium, you're going to lose more than pros. If you pay for a great premium more than $8,200 right now, I'm like, that's a bad deal. Like, it's kind of like $8,000 is kind of the used market for a home use only perfect condition premium.
    55:45
    Well, there's just, they're available everywhere. There's very little geography constraints, right? When people talk about pricing, they rarely take geography into account, right? We talk about this all the time. You see the deals in Florida, right? Right. Just because you see a game for 7k in Florida doesn't mean there's 7k everywhere. But that doesn't mean they're 9k where you live, right? Maybe it means they're 8. So I think that you're 100% accurate. I think that the shelf on these massively, well, the ceiling on these massively available games from Stern from the last few years where they sold infinite of them, I think we'll start to see Godzilla Crash, just too many, just So many of them. Yeah. So I think that's, that is very interesting. And I think the pros just have a shorter distance to fall and you look at... I'll probably own an X-Men Pro and if a pro is good, it's just hard. At some point there is a floor to the price of a pro. Like if you Jason could get an X-Men Pro near you, right, like near you, and it was $5,400, Let's say or five grand. Yeah, it's a round number like you would be pretty excited. 5400 is what I used to remember. I think maybe that was more the 4400.
    57:09
    It was either 5400 or 4400. It was was the magic number for a used pro. I was like, OK, that's safe. I'll drive a couple hours. You know, I might I say lose, but you know what I mean? Like I might sell it for a hundred less or I might sell it for exactly that. That is the safe price. So, yeah, like. But you feel good about the whole endeavor, right? And that's $1,600, right? If you buy a brand new premium for $9,500, if you pay that price, you're going to lose. I would say the starting point is $1,000. Yes. That's the starting point. You've now lost a grand. The starting point in my most recent scientific proof was Jaws, brand new, out of the box, premium. I struggled to sell it for, I think I sold it for 84, maybe 83, and it was like 50 plays. Keith Elwin, all that kind of stuff. I think it was a slow starter. Yeah. I went the other day. There's your X-Men, there's your Avatar. Let's just get out of that. Talk about pinball. I went the other day to Bad Penny to play some pinball. They have most games that anyone would want to play except for Elton John. Everything else is basically there. Finally got to play John Wick. Not impressed, really. It was fine, but it was a premium. Ellie, it was fine. I played Labyrinth again. Fine. I played Foo Fighters again just to like tickle it. Same as you, I'm like, I got my ass kicked, but I remember how much I still love that game. It's time. And then some Walking Dead, actually Marvel vs. Capcom, some Mortal Kombat 3, some arcade shit, but these guys were just hogging Jaws LE, and all I really wanted to play was Jaws. Again, that's a slow burn, and aside from oops all air balls, which there is still tons of air balls in that game, still for a lot of people, and that sucks. There's a lot to that game where I don't... I like X-Men as a theme way more than Jaws. And I think Jaws to me, like the theme is almost like, almost a hindrance. I don't hate it, but I'm like, I don't fucking care. But the game, still Keith Elwin and man, that guy knows how to make good gameplay code. He really does. Yeah, I think it's crazy how much I like Jaws and how little I've connected with any other Keith Elwin games. So, you know, you're speaking directly to me. I do think my game does play really well. I've spent a lot of time on it and it's in my house, right? So I think location's gonna be more of a challenge. And some people have a really hard time getting it dialed in. It reminds me of Stranger Things or some of these other games that have been hard to dial in. Mine was hard. But, oh yeah, you had a hell of a time. Thanks, Stern. And I get that. You know, all those concerns are 100% valid. But at the end of the day, the game is phenomenal. I mean, the game is so unbelievably good. It is a longer playing game, but yeah, I really, really, man, do I love Jaws. It is shocking how high it is moved up my personal favorite list when I don't personally love any Elwins as much as everyone else, right? I appreciate them for what they are. George Vedberg all star, Hubert Kazakhshin Sterrett K suspens Prince tijd Erkin M карь Thaw K With those sound effects and those the graphics they are immediately endearing in just the best way. I love the package of what they're doing and the rules are really different and really interesting. So it plays like a completely different game which means you have to kind of understand and get used to what it's trying to get you to do where you're trying to eat swimmers and I do like it. I haven't played it as much as just Jaws, obviously, but I really like what they're doing. I wish they did it more with everything. And it's the type of thing that I think everybody's been afraid that they'll try to charge money for. And the fact that it's just in the game and they're just giving it to you for free, I think you do have to give Stern some credit, right? Which I hate to say.
    62:03
    Well, I mean, yeah. You know, they deserve it, right? The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. And that's a good thing, right? You want more ways to experience your pinball machine.
    62:44
    Yeah, that... fuck. You're not asking me this question, but I'm asking myself this question. If I was to buy any relatively new game right now, I think it would be Jaws again over everything. Even over X-Men. I mean, I haven't played X-Men, but it's a Jaws. Steven Luz,
    63:30
    I haven't even played it since they updated everything. Yeah, that's right. You haven't played it since the huge update. No, and I loved it before that. So I don't think the argument of, oh, the code's so new, not yours specifically, but all the time with people like, oh, yeah, but I don't know. You can do it right.
    63:46
    You can if you have a good, strong base, right? There's different levels to this. I think Foo was great at launch. Yeah. I agree with you. I love the core game. I'm not a fan of the game, but you know like Deadpool is really bad like Deadpool was really bad. Foo Fighters first and foremost. Yeah well I'm saying you turn all the lights off, turn the audio off and like Foo Fighters I want to shoot anyways. It's just a phenomenal fun game to shoot. It's a great game. I mean I really do love my collection right now and it's mostly because you know I have a Foo Fighters and a Jaws and those just keep moving up. John Popadiuk, Bob Betor, Keith Elwin, Laser Los, Bowen Kerins, Lyman F. Sheats Jr., orbit ramps, Automated Amusements, Python Anghelo, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. I, I, the premium, I'm not an upper playfield guy. I say this all the time when we're talking, but like, I gotta have that upper playfield. There's too much there. There's too much, too many ball paths, too much variance. It, it kills it for me. I, I need the upper playfield. More than anything, I need the shark bash toy because I'm a pro. Every hit you need to do is like, is those optos hits, which is like not consistent, The Wally Winka Show, Knapp Arcade, Straight Down the Middle, Bally Williams, Straight Down the Middle, The premium over the pro as well, but I like the Foo Fighters pro more than I like the Jaws pro in comparison, right? Because they're all good. Yeah, I guess on the opposite, I could take it. Oh, you like Jaws pro more than Foo Pro? Yeah, I love the upper playfield on Foo Pro premium, sorry. And for some reason, the 3D sculpted alien ship does it for me on the premium. I don't know. It's like the only game where I actually give a shit about the 3D sculpt. I don't know why. Yeah, well it's weird. I have those two games and I have Star Wars Pro in between them and like I wouldn't switch it to a premium. So like really I don't have a bias, right? No!
    66:35
    It's just... I don't want a Star Wars premium. Yuck. Yeah, I want Star Wars Pro man! Star Wars Pro, Black Knight Sword & Wage Pro, Game of Thrones Pro,
    66:46
    Walking Dead Pro, Just listening to what I want. I think those are all actual better. Yeah, that's the other game. Close second between Jaws would be another Walking Dead. Man, that fucking game is so good.
    66:57
    By the way, quick question while we're kind of wrapping things up here. Do you feel like this X-Men should have been Spike 3? Because I feel like if this was Spike 3, it would be just the cherry on top of a just fucking hell of a go. The Valley Company, Subsidiary of Walter Kidde & Co., Inc., Mirco Playfields, Tim Kitzrow, Scott Danesi. You know, people are probably a little more willing to pay because it's a whole new platform. You might not lose as much money. I'm a little more willing to like, all right. And if they don't change the price, like, well, you're literally getting more for your money, a newer system, better speakers, better screen, presumably. I don't think they're gonna go backwards. And if it's the same price, like, fuck. I mean, at the same time, X-Men could be www.willywonka.com If anyone's listening, you all told me to wish her, so thank you. I'll tell her. All right. See you, man. See you. When I buy my pinball shit, I buy from Flip N Out. From toppers or Brains, TV odds, I've got it figured out. Flip N Out, figured out. When I take a pinball, I think Flip N Out. Flip N Out, figured out. When I buy, buy, buy, I buy from Flip N Out. Buy, buy, buy. Turn it back on!