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Ep 55: The Winter Curse

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 24m·analyzed·Mar 6, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

LoserKid hosts review Stern's Led Zeppelin Premium: strong flow & immersion, weak voiceover & art.

Summary

Josh Roop and Scott Larson review the newly unboxed Stern Led Zeppelin Premium pinball machine, discussing its gameplay, sound design, artwork, and how it balances competitive flow with immersive experience. They praise the game's shot flow and immersion, critique the British voiceover character and playfield artwork compared to other recent music-licensed pinball games, and explore broader pinball design philosophy comparing Stern's competition-focused approach with Jersey Jack's immersion-focused style.

Key Claims

  • Led Zeppelin Premium is receiving less community buzz than Avengers, Turtles, and other recent Stern releases

    medium confidence · Scott Larson states they haven't heard people talking about Zeppelin like these other games despite it being out for three months

  • The current code version for Led Zeppelin is 0.95, and they played version 0.93

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson texted them to update the code; Josh notes they played 0.93 and new features are in 0.95

  • Led Zeppelin Premium comes with Art Blades pre-integrated

    high confidence · Scott states 'I like that the Premium already had the Art Blades in'

  • Stern used Marvel's voice actors for Avengers due to licensing constraints

    high confidence · Josh explains 'on Avengers, Marvel used their voice actors. So that was really out of Stern's hands'

  • Wizard of Oz was an inflection point that saved the pinball industry after Williams shutdown

    medium confidence · Scott describes WoZ as propelling the industry forward after the slow drain from the 1990s

  • AC/DC was Stern's comeback statement game after their return to manufacturing

    medium confidence · Josh characterizes AC/DC as Stern's 'Back in Black' moment, their first major success post-return

  • Iron Maiden Premium playfield artwork is considered superior to Led Zeppelin's because it's original rather than album cover art

    medium confidence · Josh notes Iron Maiden did 'original artwork' via Zambetti while Zeppelin 'just threw the album cover on'

  • The Icarus symbol on Led Zeppelin art is recognizable enough to represent the band brand through Hot Topic merchandise

    low confidence · Scott explains Icarus was prevalent on Hot Topic band shirts in his youth, making it iconic for the brand

Notable Quotes

  • “I don't make a solid opinion about a pinball machine until I get my hands on it. And our friend Jeff Rivera from Final Round Pinball, I've kind of taken what he has said to heart, that you don't judge a game until you put a high score on it.”

    Josh Roop @ ~08:15 — Establishes the show's methodology for game reviews—hands-on play is required before forming opinions

  • “Every game. 'Good day, Governor.' Yeah. What's up with the British dude? Is he even British?”

    Josh Roop @ ~14:30 — Core criticism of the Led Zeppelin voiceover character; becomes a running joke throughout the episode

  • “It felt like Dick Van Dyke from Mary Poppins.”

    Scott Larson @ ~16:45 — Concise comparison capturing the perceived quality of the British voiceover as stereotypical/overdone

  • “There are the ones that solely are for the gameplay, for the score, very competition-driven. And then the other person is for the experience, the immersion into the pinball machine, that world under glass. And Stern is very well grasped on the competition, the flow, the shots, the score, where JJP is the immersion of the game.”

    Scott Larson @ ~11:00 — Articulates a core industry design philosophy divide between manufacturers

  • “I think that Zeppelin is starting to move across that line of not only is it competition and smooth shots and great flow, but you're starting to get that immersion like you do with JJP.”

    Scott Larson @ ~24:00 — Key assessment that Led Zeppelin bridges Stern's competitive strength with JJP-style immersion

  • “Once you get in a groove and you start hitting the shots, this game flows really, really well. I think if you learn the rules and you start learning those, it's even more enjoyable because I was starting to get the grasp of everything that was working and it was just really fun playing that game.”

    Josh Roop @ ~13:00 — Primary positive assessment of Led Zeppelin's core gameplay loop

  • “We've been spoiled when it comes to music pins. I mean, Dirty Donnie did Aerosmith. We also have Francki who did Beatles. We've got Zombie Yeti with Iron Maiden. And so I think the problem is we've come to expect a certain level of artistry to these music games.”

Entities

Josh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonLed ZeppelingameStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySteve RitchiepersonRaymond Davidsonperson

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Led Zeppelin receiving notably less community discussion and excitement compared to recent Stern releases like Avengers and Turtles, despite being in market for three months

    medium · Scott states 'I just don't feel like there is enough information about this game out there' and 'I just don't feel like there is enough information about this game out there. And granted, I mean, Stern has definitely streamed it...but I just haven't heard people talking about this game like Avengers or Turtles'

  • ?

    code_update: Led Zeppelin currently at code version 0.95; hosts played on 0.93 and plan to update for deeper gameplay analysis

    high · Josh: 'So we played 0.93. We didn't play 0.95. And so that's the current one.' Raymond texted them to update code.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Possible adaptive rule system detected in Led Zeppelin tour multiball—ramp requirement escalated from 6 to 9 after strong player performance

    low · Josh observes: 'I noticed that the requirement for ramps went up across games. I noticed it went from six ramps to nine ramps...Maybe it was trying to help—it realized we were making really good ramp shots'

  • ?

    product_concern: British voiceover character 'Governor' perceived as stereotypical, over-exaggerated, and similar to Dick Van Dyke's Mary Poppins accent; distracts from immersion

    high · Josh criticizes the 'Good day, Governor' voice repeatedly, calling it 'distracting' and comparing it to a Simpsons character attempting British. Scott confirms: 'It felt like Dick Van Dyke from Mary Poppins. Yes, that's exactly what it was.'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.253

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 55 i am your host josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and we are live tonight well now that you're hearing it's pre-recorded but it was recorded live it was recorded live yes recorded live from scott's basement i'm here with scott we're hanging out and we've got some great stuff for you tonight what do you say scott i think so too uh we actually have uh we did unbox my um what is it my lead zeppelin uh my lead zeppelin premium it's out in the garage uh still has have not gone down the stairs of death uh because you need more than two people to navigate those suckers uh but we did open that so we'll uh talk about our review um of that and uh game room updates, but first let's talk about people that we want to promote on the podcast. First and foremost, let's talk about flipping out pinball. Zach and Nicole, if you are interested in any of your pinball needs, and they also just started selling raw thrills too. So if you want to pick up that big buck hunter and throw that in the basement and to hunt all those furry creatures out there, go ahead and give them a holler. They've been posting videos on that and that It looks really fun. I'd like to pick up one for myself. Check out This Week in Pinball. Jeff Patterson does a great job about weeding through all the information that's going through the media. And he just summarized it into some quick steps. Go ahead and check those out. Also, Pinball Supernova, if you want to check them out, it's a great resource. I was navigating their site today, and they have videos. They also have infos, mods, toppers, and a little review. So it gives you some sort of resource on working on your pinball machines and discussing things you can do. Also, Pinball Loft, my buddy Tim Purcell's personal blog on his history of pinball. He did some pretty awesome things with his GNRLE where he added some more speakers. And I'm pretty sure the game actually hovers when he plays it because there's so much sound coming out of it now. Also, rate a pinball. Check out world number one, Raymond Davidson. He's a great streamer, and he will teach you all the things you need to do to up your game to be an elite player. You can at least try to be as good as Raymond is. If you want to see that pinball machine better, go ahead and check out Pinshades. Pinshades are polarized shades that will actually help you play better because you'll be able to see farther because it reduces the glare coming off of the machines. Also, check out our buddies Ron and David Dennis up at the Silver Ball Chronicles. If you want to know more about the history of pinball, they have a great little resource. We had David on the show the other day, and we've been on Ron and Bruce's show. So check that out. Also, if you have that trans light that's collecting dust down in your basement, go ahead and buy a lit frame for it. Go ahead and throw that sucker up on the wall. and if you don't have the machine and you just want to display that they have Brad Hunter has different sizes for different machines and I just picked up an awesome Translite. I just ordered an Iron Maiden Pro Sign Translite so I'm going to be throwing that up in my game room and so that's the rundown of the people we are pushing this week. Josh, welcome to come out to Highland, Utah. How was the drive? It wasn't too shabby. So long as it's dry and sunny, it's always a good drive. Okay.

Scott Larson @ ~35:00 — Explains the expectation gap for music-licensed game artwork due to recent high-quality precedents

  • “I've already bought three games in the last six months, I swear. So I'm probably tapped out and Zeppelin's not coming into my collection, but I'm glad Scott got it because it's a really good game.”

    Josh Roop @ ~40:00 — Personal collecting context; shows demand/saturation in home player market

  • “I don't worship the ground that Zeppelin walks on, so, not like Aquabats, you know? Like I said, I'm not a huge—don't worship the ground that Zeppelin walks on. So I've decided now I would like an Aquabats game.”

    Josh Roop @ ~48:00 — Tangent introducing wishlist speculation about Aquabats pinball

  • “You have to legitimately look at and say, OK, is a 25 year old game that has very basic code because they all had basic code—do you want to do that?”

    Josh Roop @ ~55:00 — Reflects on secondary market pricing and buyer hesitation about classic games vs. new machines

    • Jeff Rivera
    person
    Zach Minneyperson
    Brad Albrightperson
    Mark Silkperson
    Brad Hunterperson
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Avengersgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    AC/DCgame
    Iron Mangame
    Shadowgame
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Pinball Supernovacompany
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Slam Tilt Pinball Podcastorganization

    design_philosophy: Clear design philosophy divide between Stern (competition/flow-focused) and Jersey Jack (immersion-focused); Led Zeppelin characterized as bridging both approaches

    high · Scott articulates: 'Stern is very well grasped on the competition, the flow, the shots, the score, where JJP is the immersion of the game' and later 'Zeppelin is starting to move across that line of not only is it competition...but you're starting to get that immersion like you do with JJP'

  • ?

    product_concern: Led Zeppelin playfield artwork perceived as phoned-in compared to recent music-licensed games; using album cover art rather than original artwork

    medium · Josh notes 'people will say it feels a little bit...phoned in' and criticizes that 'they just threw the album cover on' unlike Iron Maiden's original Zambetti artwork. Scott: 'It still missed the mark to a point.'

  • $

    market_signal: Home collector market showing signs of saturation; secondary market prices elevated; buyers hesitant about new purchases

    medium · Josh: 'I've already bought three games in the last six months...I'm probably tapped out' and discussion of Shadow pricing ($4k) and Stern Pro pricing ($5-6k) with hesitation about purchasing

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Modern pinball audio systems enable visceral music integration impossible with classic bells/whistles; cited as key immersion driver for music-licensed games

    high · Scott explains: 'music is actually a visceral reaction. We feel it...now you basically have your own stereo system, so you can play whatever you want.' Discusses TNA and Guns N' Roses as examples.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Stern may face licensing constraints on voice talent selection; Avengers example shows Marvel controls voice casting decisions

    medium · Josh: 'There may be licensing constraints. We know that on Avengers, Marvel used their voice actors. So that was really out of Stern's hands.' Speculates similar constraints may apply to Zeppelin.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Led Zeppelin features highly repeatable backhand shots (similar to Star Trek) that reward flow play; ramp can be continuously backhanded from left flipper without crossing midline

    high · Josh: 'It's almost Star Trek-ish where the left side is very easily backhanded from the left flipper...we were just backhanding that ramp just over and over and over and getting those six ramps just knocked out'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Josh expresses interest in Aquabats pinball machine and Scott Pilgrim vs. The World pinball following Led Zeppelin discussion

    low · Josh: 'I've decided now I would like an Aquabats game' and 'Scott Pilgrim vs. The World would make a fantastic pinball machine because I think you could play really well into the fighting thing'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Two major inflection points identified in modern pinball: Williams shutdown (1990s contraction) and Jersey Jack's Wizard of Oz (revival)

    medium · Scott: 'There's one inflection point when Williams said we're making more money on slot machines...and then when JJP put out Wizard of Oz, it was an inflection point where people said No, we can still do this'

    • 3:44
    Ironically, we are actually recording in my basement, but we tried to record in the same room and we kept getting feedback on the microphone. So if you guys record in the same room and don't have that problem, reach out to us and let us know how we can do that in the future. So Josh is actually in the pinball room and I'm in the office.
    4:03
    Yeah, it was funny because we tried and tried. And then we're like, this just isn't working. So sorry. Yeah, it's getting late. We're doing things. I'm going skiing tomorrow. I need to. And Josh has his class tomorrow morning. So we have to get in bed. We're old. Exactly. We're not the young types. Not the young whippersnappers. No, we are. We are solidly in the dad rock crowd, man. Heck yes, you know it. Hey, and it's a nice place to be at this point.
    4:31
    Absolutely. Okay, so first off, what do you want to talk about first? We talked about possible game room updates, orders. You want to talk about Led Zeppelin? You want to talk about CGC? What do you want to start with? Well, it says Zeppelin's fresh on our minds since we just kind of finished playing that. Let's talk about that because I don't feel like this game has got much of a rap here. I mean, we've heard – You mean a rap or review or what? Buzz? You mean buzz? Yeah, let's say buzz because we've heard about Zeppelin. We know that TLS loves it, and that was a given. But I just don't feel like there is enough information about this game out there. And granted, I mean, Stern has definitely streamed it and so has Ray Day, and they've done awesome jobs. But I just haven't heard people talking about this game like Avengers or Turtles or, you know, there's a handful of games that I feel like have kind of stepped in its place. And so it was nice to get my hands on. You got the premium. Yeah. And it was nice to get my hands on it and give it a try because I'm a firm believer. I don't make a solid opinion about a pinball machine until I get my hands on it. And our friend Jeff Rivera from the Pinball Podcast, I've kind of taken what he has said to heart, that you don't judge a game until you put a high score on it. Okay, well, that was our second game. Or the Grand Champions. Okay, that was your second game, yeah. Yeah, that was my second game. I'm glad they started really low so you could win Grand Champion. I know. And here's the thing. This game, I'm really enjoying it. The sound is fantastic on it. I felt like it's an upgrade from previous sound packages.
    6:11
    But I think the thing that I just – I was so confused with everything that was going on. And me and you were trying to dissect this while we're playing. And the electric magnet kept coming out of the middle of the play field. I'm like, how the heck are we doing this? And so once we kind of slowed down because the rules card you read and it's like, if you want to learn more about these rules, you can go online to, I guess, the web address. And I'm like, but that doesn't help me right now.
    6:36
    Yeah, okay. Okay. How many times have you gone up to the machine and actually looked at the card, the little card on the left-hand side of the apron? How many times have you actually read that? I usually read it after I get a feel for the shots just because I want to know where I'm shooting and I don't want to be putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. So I get a feel for the shots and I usually read the card to get an idea of what the heck is even supposed to be going on. So I have like 11 games in my house and one in my garage now, so 12.
    7:13
    Do you know how many of those cards I've actually read? None. Like two, maybe. And I immediately forget what they say. I don't know. That's just not how I learned games.
    7:24
    I wish I were better. And this is my big failing as a pinball player. I can typically keep the ball playing long. You know, I can have a long ball. And then I look up and realize I didn't score many points. it kind of reminds me a little bit of the special when lit documentary when Josh Sharp is talking about his dad he's like his you know Roger he's like he'll keep nailing that one shot over and over again even though it's worth no points he's like dad why are you hitting that he's like because it feels good that's a great shot I kind of feel that way that I need to learn more about the games the game that I sold which I'm fine with selling it I still miss it a little bit was Iron Man, but it was because I played it enough that I really knew the rules. And that wasn't really a super deep rule set. Yeah. So I think that you have to with the modern complex rule sets. I think you have to go online to learn the rules. And also we we put it up and we, you know, we shared it out and Raymond actually texted back. He's like, make sure you update. So we played 0.93. We didn't play 0.95. And so that's the current one. So we haven't done that yet because there are other things that have been released in 0.95. Well, and I know that we've talked about this. We've talked about this with other people recently. I think that there's two different types of pinball players in the world. There are the ones that solely are for the gameplay, for the score, very competition-driven. and then the other person is for the experience, the immersion into the pinball machine, that world under a glass that we hear about. And they can intersect and cross, but I feel like that's the two distinct players. And Stern is very well grasped on the competition, the flow, the shots, the score, where JJP is the immersion of the game. I mean, GNR is a fantastic example of this. It's just you're inside the Guns N' Roses concert when you're playing it. Okay, but is that really fair to compare things to Guns N' Roses? Because a member of the band was part of the design team. I don't think you're going to get Robert Plant coming down and saying, hey, Steve, let's hang out and design a pinball machine.
    9:57
    It's kind of a different – I'm not downplaying what Guns N' Roses was able to do because asset-wise, I doubt you will get any other game that has the wealth of assets that Guns N' Roses has involved. But I also think that is such an outlier into what you can expect from a machine. Okay, let's take this then. Let's take 2012-2013 area. We're going to go ACDC versus Wizard of Oz. I know they're two entirely different ones. Dad Rock, the other one's classic cinema. but there is definitely an experience with wizard of oz versus it's not the best flowing game it's not the best shooting game but you definitely have an experience there versus acdc which is yes you get the music and stuff like that but you're definitely focusing on the gameplay and the shots and the flow because it's a richie game is that is that a fair assessment yeah i think that's fair um and now now wizard of oz is certainly a groundbreaking game i mean that tilted the landscape of pinball. I mean, really there, there almost seems there should be an inflection point that there's, there's really two inflection points in pinball in the last 25 years. There's one inflection point is when, uh, Williams ballet said, we're making more, more money on slot machines. So we're just going to shut down the pinball. Yeah. So that was one inflection point. And then it was kind of a slow drain on pinball. But then when Stern, when sorry, when JJP put out Wizard of Oz, it was an inflection point where people said, no, we can still do this better. And it propelled people forward. So I think, yeah, I guess you could still put ACDC because ACDC was really the first Stern. stern we're back it that was their back in black it was they hey we are we're going to do things better than wheel of fortune and big buck hunter so to bring it back to zeppelin i i think that zeppelin is starting to move across that line of not only is it competition and smooth shots and great flow but you're starting to get that immersion like you do with a jjp i don't know if it's the light bars are on both sides like the hot rails that you find in a jjp um the sound quality i don't know if it's just because we had it on standard sound and it was cranking and it sounded good the music was good i actually really enjoyed the sound effects when you're hitting stuff um i i felt like i was being more immersed with zeppelin even versus avengers i feel like you're in the zeppelin world avengers you are but some of the calls kind of take you out of it and we're not going to get into that at the moment but i think my greatest takeaway from zeppelin from playing what do we play five games on it yeah about that yeah and it it was getting late and we didn't want to record tonight so it correct it was that was the reason raymond why we didn't update but we will update okay then we'll be able to tell you what's going on i think my greatest takeaway from it is once you get in a groove and you start hitting the shots this game flows really, really well. I think if you learn the rules and you start learning those, it's even more enjoyable because I was starting to get the grasp of everything that was working and it was just really fun playing that game and I felt like it promotes you to play better and rewards you for doing so. My only negativity, and you know exactly what I'm going to say because we made fun of this all night while we were playing this game. Every game. Good day, Governor. Yeah. What's up with the British dude? Is he even British? I don't know if he's British. It really sounds like a Simpsons character that is trying to be British, but may or may not be British.
    13:55
    It's a little distracting, I guess I'll put it that way. I kept laughing every time it happened. I'm like, why didn't they just call it Mark Silk? He is our, what would you call him, our token British guy? Okay, I would say an excellent voice actor who also happens to be British.
    14:15
    Okay. Yeah. We'll say that because mine could be taken offensive. I don't know. No, I know what you're saying. And Mark's actually a good friend. We talk at least once a month, and he is hilarious, by the way. When you talk to Mark on the phone, you realize how funny you are not because he is born to entertain. But yeah, he would have been, I think, a better choice. Now, everything we're saying is with the caveat that we are dealing in a world where we can pick and choose what we want to do. There may be licensing constraints. We know that on Avengers, Marvel used their voice actors.
    14:59
    So that was really out of Stern's hands. So this may be one of the situations, but I'm really hoping that does upgrade a little bit because it is – it does take you out of that experience. It just – it seemed almost stereotypical what he was saying. And that's just the vibe I was getting. And granted, he may be British. I don't know the voice actor. Maybe we should dig into this a little more. Yeah, exactly. He's a wonderful guy. He's from London, you junk. Yeah, yeah. But I just felt like it was over exaggerated, almost like we were talking with. No. OK, wait, wait, wait. I'm going to say this and you're going to know it. It felt like Dick Van Dyke from Mary Poppins. Yes, that's exactly what it was. Yes.
    15:43
    You've hit the nail on the head. It was very. Yes. Good day, Governor. Yeah. OK. Now, that being said now, we have talked about this before, though. One of the reasons why music pins are such great at immersion or that experience is because music is actually a – it's a visceral reaction. We feel it. And with the updated sound, they can put things in it that they couldn't put in before, like the bells and whistles that they used to do in pinball, the stereotypical pinball sounds. it's the ding ding ding those type of sounds but now you basically have your own stereo system so you can play whatever you want now this is why and we talked about it before this is why TNA is such an immersive game because of the sound and if TNA had the bells and whistles the stereotypical sounds from 1982 it would not be the same game yeah true and so and that's the same thing with uh we talk about guns and roses being that immersive experience so it it wouldn't be the same thing without the guns and roses music now i would say led zeppelin is certainly on par with guns and roses music for songs you want to jam with to play yeah i agree so so they had that going for it so okay so why don't we step back and say, okay, so let's talk about what do you, okay. We only have the premium that we've seen in person. We've seen all the other art packages now that you've seen it. What do you think? Premium. I really liked the premium. I am a fan of the Ellie. Don't, don't get me wrong. I don't have, I knew Zeppelin from hearing him on the radio. I do not have the deeper connection with Zeppelin like other people do. I do recognize Icarus as an actual symbol of Zeppelin. And the reason being is by time I started growing up, when I started walking through the Macy's and the JC pennies and the mall and stuff like that, and they're selling the ACDC and they're selling, it's hot, it's hot topic. Yeah. It's hot topic. It's the hot topic shirts. Yeah. You want to let the shirt. Yeah. Icarus was always on those shirts. And so when people were complaining that Icarus isn't Zeppelin, I was, I was kind of taken back just because it is. Yeah. I feel like it is very recognizable with their brand at this point in time yeah so i still enjoy i like blue i really like blue i feel like the blue pops with the yellow and the orange on on the ellie but as far as the premium goes love the artwork on there yeah i um people will say it feels a little bit um okay phoned in i guess is it's it seems an easy way of doing things because the pro and the premium they're just using the the straight album art right yeah it's a little different than what they did with iron maiden i mean they iron maiden could have easily put like power slave i mean that's basically what the premium iron maiden is it's the power slave album or the theme but they still did original artwork for it and uh and they could have done different things but they just threw the album cover on and I'm fine with it. Like I, I, I remember like actually having that album, like back when you have the albums and you can see the artwork and it makes that connection. So anybody who is certainly of my age group in the dad rock era, they're going to see that and say, Oh yeah, that's Led Zeppelin. Yep. Um, I'm not sure if you did like a stylized cartoon version of it that it would be led zeppelin like i i don't think it would be the it's iron maiden is a little different and i know i'm using them interchangeably and i know they're they're slightly different eras but uh the art of iron maiden was very iconic and anybody who followed iron maiden knew who eddie was they knew what you're getting but uh they were able to you know i i think that Zambietti did such an amazing job of modernizing it while keeping true to form. Led Zeppelin doesn't have that same thing. They just had the albums. And anybody who has that album is going to recognize that. I agree. So let's break it down to this, though. We had Brad Albright on our show. Hi, Brad. Hey, Brad. Yeah. And I have that. He sent me a print. His print is awesome. that yes that cartoon print yeah would you take that over your premium artwork that you have oh um or is it there's the problem that it's two entirely different styles so you can't really compare it's two different art packages i the the one uh because you can't take um you can't take brad's and put it on the premium machine because the play field is different right yeah the the play field is it is a it is a package it it looks very similar to what maybe a concert program would be back in the 70s um the one that they uh um the rhoda dave made down in new zealand which brad did the um the art for it very much a kind of like a cartoony thing and i'm not being dismissive of that yeah but it's very stylized in that era a line drawn it's It looks great, but it kind of looks like – when I use the word caricature, that usually means kind of like a – you're accentuating things to make it look humorous. But that's not what he did. He did a great cartoony version of Led Zeppelin, and I think that package worked really well together.
    21:51
    I don't know. I like both packages, but I think that I prefer the package I have on the premium because it feels like that classic concert program that you would buy. Yeah.
    22:11
    So this is my pushback on the artwork. Okay. I actually enjoy the cabinets. It's the play field I really don't like. It is good-looking artwork. I think this is the problem. We've been spoiled when it comes to music pins. Oh, sure. Sure. I mean, like you said, Dirty Donnie did Aerosmith. We also have Franchi who did Beatles. We've got Zombie Yeti with Iron Maiden. And so I think the problem is, too, is we've come to expect a certain level of artistic-ness to these dad rock games. and I feel like it still missed the mark to a point. It's still a good-looking game. I think if you're a Zeppelin fan, even if you're not a Zeppelin fan, I think you're going to enjoy this game. Really, if you haven't played a Zeppelin, get out. Go put your hands on one. They've been out for three months now and play it. It's a very richy game. You know what you're getting. You're getting flow.
    23:14
    I feel like Scott has to adjust a couple things on his game, but Richie's been talking about that stuff. So it's just one of those things. Get out, play it. I think you need a formulated opinion of it. I think it's a good game. Is it for me, my collection? I've already bought three games in the last six months, I swear. So I'm probably tapped out and Zeppelin's not coming into my collection but I'm glad Scott got it because it's a really good game. Yeah, I would put the art package as good. Yes. And I'm not – and that's not to be dismissive of it. I actually thought the Star Wars art package was good too, like the one that people say looked like sticker art. And I totally get it. It looks like stock art, which is kind of what Lucasfilm – they're the ones who controlled that, right? And so this feels like it is certainly within the realm of what Led Zeppelin would put out. Um, do I think it is that next level, um, of the other ones you talked about? No, I don't. Um, but I think it's certainly theme appropriate. I agree. And yeah, we can leave it at that. So, okay. So, so what, what about other things though? I mean, you kind of, you kind of fast forwarded through all the other stuff. What are your thoughts about like the, uh, the shots? How do you like the shots? I like the shots. It's hard to tell because with your garage, you had lighting directly above us. Or not directly above us. So I had a hard time seeing the upper right hand of the play field.
    24:47
    And it's crucial to hit that right ramp because to start tour multiball, you've got to hit the right ramp, then the left scoop.
    24:55
    And then you pick an objective to go for. And granted, like Scott said, we're talking about 0.93. Obviously, there's been a code upgrade since. And we've only played five games on it. Correct. But I thought once you got going, it felt really good. When you got dialed in, you could blow it up. Josh and I were kind of neck and neck on the last game. And then on his third ball, he doubled my score. Well, what I thought was interesting too is, so the tour multiball, when you go to start that, it gives you like five different objectives you can pick from. One's the spinner. One's ramps. One's orbits. Pops. And so we were gravitating towards ramps, but the first couple times we picked it, it did six ramps, and we were kind of killing it on the ramps because you can backhand. It's almost Star Trek-ish where the left side is very easily backhanded from the left flipper. And so we were just backhanding that ramp just over and over and over and getting those six ramps just knocked out, right? We weren't even – when I think backhanding it, I think of hitting it, trapping up, and then shooting it so it doesn't cross the midline. We were hitting that in flow. It was coming back, and we were just slamming it. So yeah, it was a very repeatable shot. The interesting part, though, is as we progressed in more games, I noticed that the requirement for ramps went up across games. I noticed it went from six ramps to nine ramps, and I was like, wait a minute. Why did it do that? And so maybe it was trying to help. It realized we were making really good ramp shots. And so it was like, well, maybe we need to make this requirement a little bit harder. It's an adaptive rule set now?
    26:38
    Maybe. I don't know. How else do you explain it? I think it was the second time you were trying to do it. Maybe. Yeah, because I think you already had Tor multiball. That's a good possibility. Oh, no. Like I said, it's a really good flowing game. Yeah, I think so too. It's a Richie game, right? So you are going to get shots and you are going to feel pin godlike if you get in that zone.
    27:01
    Right. There was one game where I was really just hitting everything. Wasn't really scoring a lot of points, but I was hitting a lot of shots and you felt like you were really dialed in.
    27:13
    Do you know what it felt like? This is my initial impression. And it's probably OK. All machines have similar themes. Right. Like, you know, you could, you know, someone always, every time a new play field comes out, they always pull up like some generic play field. Like, look, it's just Big Buck Hunter reversed and we're going to put it over it. You know, right. Because how many different ways are you going to make two shots from flippers down at the bottom? Right.
    27:43
    It felt like a different version of Iron Man. Yeah, I guess you could say that. The difference being is that the Ironmonger was – it was a spinner that came up from the play field. And it was definitely – you weren't punished for hitting the shot perfectly. No, no, no. If you hit the ball perfectly, it went straight through. And it felt – now, again, this is only five games into it. It felt a little spinner heavy. Like once that spinner came up, that was kind of the only thing you were going for. And so I'm sure when we know more about the rules and the nuances, then it will be different. But it felt kind of like a newer version of Iron Man, like a kind of a Borg-Richie-Lovechild thing where it was like a mashup. And I don't say that dismissively. It's taking good elements. In my game room, I had Spider-Man and Iron Man side by side, and it almost felt like they fused together. I could see that the one thing I did really like about the game too is when you hit that if you were going turtles standard that center ramp when you're hitting that side ramp from that flipper you actually hit that shot that game congratulates you for hitting it was kind of cool I hit it a handful of times I don't know if like I said on which one Zeppelin? On Zeppelin. Yeah. Sorry. I was liking it to Turtles, but yeah. Yeah. But the difference with Zeppelin, though, is that it doesn't come – it's a little bit like what Keith did with Avengers, where the ball doesn't come screaming around in orbit, and you're trying to hit that as it's accelerating toward you. It's because if you hit that right orbit, it actually goes to a mini scoop. Yeah. And so it stops and then comes down. So it seems like something that could be a little easier to hit.
    29:54
    Yeah, I agree. When you get it dialed in. Yeah. So that's my thoughts. Anything else you want to hit on, Zeppelin? Okay, so things that I thought were incrementally better. I like that the Premium already had the Art Blades in. Yes. I like that they integrated a light show, which is going to be very similar to what Guns N' Roses did with their light show in the game. It is taking it to a new level.
    30:26
    I know it will be a fun game, and I'm glad we have it. And it'll be fun to upgrade it and then learn the rules and see what a deeper dive will be. but so far I'd say initial initial vibe I'd say is positive I agree so I wasn't I wasn't excited but I wasn't discouraged going into the this gameplay I was I was surprisingly happy with it and mates because I had zero expectations of it you know like I said I'm not a huge I don't worship the ground that Zeppelin walks on so not like Aquabats yeah you know it so I've decided now I would like an Aquabats game but I'm really digging I think that Scott Pilgrim vs. The World would make a fantastic pinball machine because I think you could play really well into the fighting thing well Seven Evil X's we've seen the fighting thing with Avengers and Deadpool but I know that's a totally random tangent but seriously Scott Pilgrim vs. The World I still haven't seen it you should read the books first and then well movie's good okay but okay but the problem is is they try to jam six books into one movie okay so all right sounds good all right i'll pull it up okay uh next so i i would say thumbs up i'd say certainly give it a shot i'm not sure how the last ability um because that is something in a game room yep um and so let's move on to uh game room updates and talk about that so um josh what do you have coming in what do you have going out i honestly don't have any plans right now i offered someone a trade for my dress park pro uh not really bites at the moment i've been talking to someone about a shadow i really would love a shadow i know that when we were on slam tilt i talked about that's like one of the games i've won in my collection um i just i'm having a really rough time with prices right now i think everyone else is feeling it use markets through the roof you know new machine it's crazy to me because it's like well do i spend the money on a shadow or do i wait to see what stern comes out with because a pro yeah is it kind of the same right yeah yeah i mean a shout is four grand but still i mean a pro branding out of the box i drop another thousand or two well it's it's gonna be two thousand not Just if you if you can get me a Stern Pro for five thousand dollars, hook me up. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. But even like a Stern Pro for six thousand dollars, you have to legitimately look at and say, OK, is a 25 year old game that has very basic code because they all had basic code. like you know do you want to do that and you know i remember when monsters came out people didn't like that they had that retro code on it which i actually i think monsters is a fun game but uh you know i i'm not uh i i'm not a uh i'm not a tournament player so well and i'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around creature from the black lagoon being a six thousand dollar game this is a game when i got into the hobby was in the mid twos yeah two to low threes yeah i i don't know i i think uh well there's certainly the nostalgic component to that and so well i guess we uh we'll talk about that a little bit later when we're going to talk about cgc um so game room updates for me um i actually decided to bite the bullet on two games coming out Which ones are you getting? So I decided to get a Deadpool Premium.
    34:11
    Nice. So I've talked to a lot of people, and ironically, when Deadpool came out, it actually didn't have the buzz. Like it came out, and they're like, yeah, okay, it's kind of clunky. Like people don't like it. But it steadily marched up into where it's one of people's favorite games. Like my friend Tony, I texted him, and he has like 30 games in a pinball barn that he has on his property. And he said he's going to be buried with Deadpool. Like that's how much he loves it. And so after he said that, I'm like, you know what? I need to give this game more time. And because I am a sucker for drop targets, so I decided to get the premium. So I ordered that. I also heard that they were going to put a few more Iron Maidens on the line. So I put my name on a list for getting Iron Maiden.
    35:10
    And yeah, so Iron Maiden went for the premium. That's the era that's iconic for me. And Iron Maiden is that live after death slash power slave era.
    35:25
    So I'm looking forward to that. And yeah. And so I think I'm going to have to start moving things. I think that a Spider-Man is going to have to move on and I don't know. I I've enjoyed turtles. I think it's great, but I think I, you know, if I'm turning over my, my new games faster, I think I'll, I may have to have turtles move on too. I'm a firm believer. If you're going to buy a turtles, anyone that's listening right now, if you're going to buy a turtles, get the pro, I think you'll be happier with the pro. If you've been looking at a turtles and you're enjoying it, I think that's the problem that you've had with Turtles, because I know that you haven't been super pleased with Turtles. You know, it's just hard, I guess. I don't know. I feel that my personal limitations are what's holding that game back. I don't really think it's the game. Well, I own the Pro. I've played your Premium. The top half of that game is hard to see. It's kind of packed, yeah. It's from the side ramp up. and the problem is is the most critical shots are in that top spot and they are blocked and so that's i played it again tonight while you were upstairs and getting and getting ready for us to get recording and i i enjoyed it still but i was having a rough time hitting some shots just because you can't see anything on that visually it may be a little more challenging but i i think if you had it you would just kind of know like i if i play a game enough i know where the shots are and i just you know it's you know so i don't know i i think that it's uh you just have to learn how to turn this is one of my issues about trying to move on i just i'm just trying to learn to let go and sell games that that was my my first game that i sold that i thought was going to be bolted to the ground was uh was iron man and i felt that i sold it because i needed to move on I needed to play other games and that's kind of the only game I was playing. Well, and COVID's kind of helped that too. Yeah. You know? No, I think so. And so those are, I, I also, I still have a few things to install. Oh, I got my new, my subway for Avengers. So my subway holds up. It's a limited edition. So it, the balls get kind of stuck in there. So Stern sent me a new one. Thanks Stern. and I will be installing that too. So that will be a lot more fun.
    37:54
    And yeah, that's, so that's my game room updates. Nice. Yeah, I'm just waiting to see what comes out at the end of the month slash beginning of April. And we'll talk about that later. But I keep getting this itch, I need another pinball machine because we all get that, right? And I'm like, just hold off. It's March. Everyone knows what March means. And so let's just see what's in store for March and the beginning of April. Yeah. So we'll see what happens there. Okay. So do you want to talk about releases next or do you want to talk about speculations? Let's talk about really quick – let's talk about us ourselves. I showed up to your house with a newspaper. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's right. Josh is infamous, which is more than famous. What happened, Josh? so the local newspaper in my town reached out they've been around for decades and they wanted to do a human interest piece is what they called it they'd heard that we'd won the pinball industry awards awards sorry not when we received we were recipients there okay we won the award and so they asked me to sit down and give them an interview and i found it funny because you read the article and it's a great it's a good article but i'm like i sat down for like an hour and a half with this lady and i feel like they didn't use much and like they you like you said they only sent you three questions or something like that and then i felt bad for like dennis creasel because they didn't even reach out to him but it was just funny because like a lot of our friends and colleagues in the hobby was able to give their their take on it and it was an honor. It really was. And it's funny because we've been doing this for how long now? Well, over two years.
    39:44
    And I haven't heard much in my town about doing the podcast, which I don't do this for recognition in my, in my town. I do it because I really enjoy pinball. And like I said, from episode one, I want to be part of the conversation. I want to get my take on it and give a positive spin in the, in the industry. Cause that's what I felt like we've needed. But it's funny because as soon as the article piece came out, in the newspaper, more and more people have been like, are you the guy from the newspaper? Like, yeah. And I'm like, people were like, this is terrible of me, but like, I thought everything was online nowadays, but apparently a lot of people still receive or read the newspaper in my town. And so I've had, had a lot of people say, you made the front page of the newspaper. That's amazing. Yeah. Front page in Vernal. So we are, we're trending, we're trending. In Dinosaur Land. So that's a tri-county area. We've got 80,000 people down there, man. We've got a lot of people. No, in all sincerity, it is actually really cool. And I'm glad that we got it right up. And that's cool, right? Yeah, definitely an honor.
    40:54
    What else can you say about it? It's pretty cool that other people are starting to take notice of the pinball industry. And we're just happen to be a part, a stitch in the tapestry that is this hobby. And it's cool that it's not just a story associated with a song pinball wizard, which is usually what happens. Yes. And that's what's funny. It made me chuckle. There was a couple of things like Roger Sharp and his sons. Like there was no mention of Zach and Josh. And the rest. It was funny. It's kind of like Gilligan's Island where it's like they name five of them and then they leave out the professor and Marianne. They're like, and the rest. Yes. Like there's two people. You couldn't just name both of them.
    41:35
    Really nice. I was honored to be a part of that. So that was cool. That was a lot of fun. So, and the other thing that I'm even more honored about, we got a message today from Rick Nagel and he said, Hey, your guys' logo is now in Avengers. Boom. So if you do the LKP, like you do with turtles, the 11, sorry, no, not 11. It's 12 left, one right, 11 left, one right. 16 left, 2 right Okay wait, what's that? Okay, first you have to clear it Because you have to hold both flippers Yes You do 12 left 1 right 11 left one right 16 left one right and then one right to do it one more time It pop up our logo Yeah. And then I also got another message from Eric, and Eric had said our logo had went live with their last update in GNR. So now we're in Turtles, GNR, and Avengers. Who's keeping track? No one's keeping track, right? Well, we are. I mean, come on. That's awesome. But it's way cool. It's a definite honor that they're willing to put us in these games. And it's a big shout out to Stern and JJP for – well, for being friends of our show. So we appreciate what they do. So let's – I want to end on the thing that's on the very last of our list. I want to do that last. So let's hurry and hit March speculation and go from there. Okay. So we're thinking that it's been a while since Stern announced – well, they announced Led Zeppelin.
    43:17
    In December? Yeah. So usually when the premiums are coming out, then that means they're getting close to announcing another one. Yep. TPF is usually at the end of March. We usually have a couple of companies reveal at that time. Spooky's getting close to being done with Rick and Morty It's been Pretty dang close to 18 months Same with You know you said Stern but they usually do two weeks After TPF It's been Forever for CGC So who knows there Is it too soon For American Pinball it's been a year For Hot Wheels and they're Promising to be on a faster track now I would anticipate with American Pinball, I would say in the next two months they'll announce something.
    44:10
    With Stern, I would probably say, you know, I don't think they'll announce this month. I think it'll be end of April. um so i think it's we're probably six weeks away just because they still have so much they're clearing out and they're the demand that i think that they don't need to push it um gotcha and you announce when you need to put something else on the line but they have a big old line already um and so i think they'll push that a little bit uh chicago gaming uh you know we know that they release when they're ready and and they don't need to do much because whatever they're going to release we've already seen it unless it's going to be an original one you know so um that's um that that's easy because they can just throw it out there like oh i played it i remember that one yep and and if you're listening cgc i still firmly believe and and you guys are the ones that are doing this, you obviously know the statistics and stuff like that. I really firmly believe you should be making a remake one year and an original title the next. I think you could be slaying it right now, but you guys have your own business. You know how you're doing it. I still firmly believe that would be amazing for the hobby. Well, at some point they have to, right? There's only so many resurrection titles you can do. it's true but you could you could span out your timeline on your resurrection titles while getting a foothold in the new market and that's fair they certainly have shown that they can make a quality play field uh they make quality cabinets and so they have the manufacturing down now it's the design which is is a tricky animal in itself yeah and and what are we hearing from cgc is it just cactus canyon is there is there anything else even on the table well we if you go off what they've originally said they've basically thrown out a list of things that are typically unlicensed but are still nostalgic fun games and so they have thrown out their um cactus canyon they've thrown up big bang bar uh they've thrown up theater of magic they've thrown up tales of the arabian nights um i would say a few more i would put on the list personally i would put whitewater on the list um whitewater is a great family game um and they would kill it with a topper like whatever they would do on that whitewater topper would be amazing um then uh if if they can get the license and basically we all know that there is a price for everything right and so you could get um i know people i am not a big fan of adam's family but i know there are people who are um twilight zone i i have a twilight zone it's it's an okay game i don't have the same connection that other people have with it so i think they would definitely do well by doing that one um so i don't know you could you could even argue something like terminator 2 like i i know people who would love a mint terminator 2 all right we're getting into licensing issues with some of these but you know they they still do like raw thrills those terminator games and uh and really it's not you know with uh with adam's family and they were able to make it make it happen for the pinball arcade so i think you can figure something out is what games would you put on that list josh uh remake wise i definitely would like to see a white water um i don't know circus voltaire theater of magic i think the problem here's here's the problem i have with 90s games though now now that i've gotten used to newer sterns in my home right they're slow there's well not only are they slow but there's not enough code depth there right and and a modern player will blow through that code that they will get it's a little bit like, um, you can't release or it's difficult to release, uh, like a Nintendo 1985 game now because you kind of blow through it. Um, I, I actually, this is a little tangent, but, um, growing up like ghosts and goblins was a crazy game and it was crazy hard. It was impossible really to beat it. So no one actually did. So you felt like you always for progressing in it. I bought like a remake for the Switch and I've played it for maybe like eight hours, just an hour here, an hour there. And I'm pretty close to the end. And I don't think I'll play it again. This is more of a, hey, that was fun. It reminds me of that, but I don't know if I would do it. So it's the same type of thing. If you release a game that's 25 years old okay but um unless it has that nostalgic component and you're not selling to tournament players and tournament players they they don't buy monster bash because they will boss monster bash around yes and no monster bash they'll still play because it's got it's still it's still fun but it's not the walking dead but attack from mars made that's the one caveat to all this it doesn't have super deep code but the game is challenging it's dangerous it's still dangerous a lot of those games though they're not if they're dialed in correctly they're not dangerous yeah and that's the reason why you you don't see a lot of uh medieval madnesses out there in high level tournaments because guess what keith elwynn can rule the kingdom every time well and I think the other problem too is well this is something we alluded to before I honestly if you're going to make these remakes I love it because you get a new in box game and I would rather almost every day buy a new in box game what was an attack for Mars even classic edition yeah it was still 6,000 yeah and that was my thought that's why I bought an attack for Mars remake because I didn't want the headache of maintaining a 25 year old game yep and same with medieval madness and same with if they do cactus canyon i here's the thing with cactus canyon i think this is why it's lukewarm there's not a ton of them out there there's 900 of them the code isn't complete so it's hard to base an opinion off of a game that was never really finished in the first place i think it's an idea that's basically what it is It's an idea and rarity. Well, and I think you look at the lineup, you've got Medieval Madness, which is the quirky, it's the medieval times quirky stuff. Well, it's the Holy Grail. I mean, come on. Yes. Then you have Attack from Mars, which is the quirky alien stuff. And you have Monster Bash, which actually uses the monster characters, but it's the quirky monster pinball machine. so you've got cactus canyon which is the quirky cowboy pinball machine like you can see the theme going through these machines and i don't know if it's just it was overdone by the time we got to cactus canyon i've played it multiple times on my phone because you can get it through the pinball arcade well you can't anymore but if you do have it downloaded to your phone you can play it through the pinball arcade if you purchase it before they lost the licensing and it is a fun game I mean it's hard to tell when you're playing it on your phone it shoots well from what I can tell I just I don't know that's the problem I've played a Cactus Canyon in person I think twice and it's hard to base an opinion off of that I've played Led Zeppelin more than I've played Cactus Canyon I think it's a good game but it comes down to back to your point if you release a game that's 25 years old it doesn't keep up with the newer games but the problem with your analogy is a lot of times when they re-release older games it comes out for a fraction of the cost of the new games i can go on nintendo right now and i can buy ghosts and goblins like you were talking about it either comes free with my nintendo yearly subscription which is 20 bucks and i get a slew of other games or they just remade Ghosts and Goblins. And if I remember correctly, it is like $15 or $20 to buy. That is a third of a brand new game at $60.
    53:32
    So that's where the hurdle is with remakes, in my opinion, is you're coming out with a 25-year-old game, but you're still coming out at the same cost as a Stern Pro, as a Stern Premium on these. And so are they in the right price range? right now they are i mean everything else is covet has definitely and it's not just pinball it's it's trading cards it's it's wood it's it's metal it's it's everything has went through the roof everything that's home related yes yes comic books it just everything's went through the roof it's ridiculous i shouldn't have given away all my comic books like 10 years ago no you shouldn't have you should have sold them right now for a premium so that's my spill that's my spill on the remakes i love them cgc i've bought each one of them except for meaningful madness so i guess sorry two out of your three i've loved the quality i've never had an issue out of the box with either one of them yeah i just i feel like we need more quicker i appreciate you guys saying radio silent like radio silent until you're ready I think that's one thing either people need to not give CGC crap for not talking or they should not give Deep Root crap for always talking yeah okay everybody knows my feelings on Deep Root at least when they release it's always a solid option I'm totally fine with what CGC is doing um but yeah it'll be interesting to see and i'm certainly looking forward to it because they've never um yeah yeah they never they haven't failed us yet right correct yep and everything is completely solid so yeah i i'm always interested to play it now i didn't buy monster bash but my friend has monster bash and so i can play it when i want it yeah um we'll see what happens if if the wide speculation is it's cactus canyon but you know if it's big bang bar if it's you know they're going with the games that command the highest price right yep so well that's everything right now it seems like yeah but i mean the reason why they went with medieval madness first is because it was seventeen thousand dollars yeah so you could remake it for ten still make a profit right and so and so i there's a reason why and it's just dollars and cents why they're choosing the games they have. But it'll be interesting to see eventually if they get back down to it. And I know there would be people lined up to buy Indiana Jones, the pinball adventure, even though I don't think it's the best game. I think it's a fun game, but I don't think it's their best one. But because you have Indiana Jones, right? Well, and the interesting part, to tie this all back together, if you haven't listened to the pinball show, Midweek Edition, where they interviewed Tom Capera, who was the original designer for Cactus Canyon. One of the statements he had made is that CGC hasn't contacted him. Granted, he might just be saying that, and he's actually been back behind the scenes helping with it. But it sounds like... Yeah, that's all speculation. That's 100% speculation. But I found it interesting that Tom had said that they haven't contacted him. Yeah. So, and then the one other, I know I don't want to dig, I don't want to really open this door, but, you know, one person we didn't hit in March. Do you think Deep Root is ready? Because Stephen Bowden, or Steve Bowden was on final round talking about food truck. Do you think it's time that we see food truck from Deep Root? No. Okay. We'll leave it at that.
    57:31
    Okay. They haven't made anything. The only thing they've made is empty promises. Their biggest – like their big coming out party is capped at, what, 160 games?
    57:45
    Yes. And Stern does that in a week. Yeah. And so like – I'm sorry. Right now they're not even a viable company.
    57:54
    Like they're kind of along the same lines as the crazy carnival guys. Yeah. And it's – at least those guys made some games. man i wish i wish that would have worked why haven't we heard from those guys that should be someone we should be calling pinball circus to figure out where the crap is our kingpins yeah does no one care i okay i i kind of think that's what's happened like right now there was lukewarm reception so these two dudes are like no let's not worry about it i think what happens is you you have to time and strike when it's when it's right okay so how about we look back in the way back machine and okay what about if those games came out in 2012 2013 so the the run up to that was you know this is just stern but acdc you have x-men you have mb but before ACDC, you have Transformers, you have Tron, Rolling Stone, Avatar, Iron Man. So there's some good hits in there, but there's some misses and people are like, yeah, okay. And then you get Metallica, which turned out to be a great game. Then you have Star Trek, then you have Mustang, then you have Walking Dead, then you have WrestleMania, the huge hit that was. Then you have KISS, Game of Thrones. You have some of these games that have really grown over time. Are you going to okay so in the last three years are you going to spend eight to ten thousand dollars on a kingpin or would you buy an iron maiden would you buy a deadpool would you buy a black knight would you buy an elvira's house of horrors would you buy a um would you buy a guns and roses like i think that the moment has passed but i think here's the thing if because here was their goal they were going to make kingpin and then they were going to use the money that they made from kingpin to make pinball circus that was like the original goal was to make pinball circus because there's only two in the world if i remember correctly yeah one's the pinball hall of fame in las vegas yeah and it's a gimmick game you you play you play it once and then you're like oh okay well i got it through the clown mouth and that's the payoff right that's the wizard mode you have hit the wizard mode by getting up four ramps. Yeah. But I think, I still think there's a market for that right now. I think how much you did, if you did a limited run, you, you got to make it limited. Yeah. Okay. How many, how many do you think would make a profitable? Oh, 500. Do you think you'd sell 500 of those? Easily.
    60:37
    There, there, I guarantee there's 500 people out there that are like, there's only two in the world right now. And you're telling me I could have one of 500. so there will be 502 in the whole world. And it's obviously got a rep to it. Same with Kingpin. Kingpin is a decently playing game. But you saw how Big Bang Bar did. I think the same thing happens with Kingpin. Joust. Joust doesn't have a ton. You could go back and do Joust. No one's going to buy Joust. I'm sorry.
    61:09
    Okay, it's one of those things that's limited by supply and not demand. Maybe. I think you're going to tap out your demand really fast. I think it's hard, though, because right now it's hard to tell what is successful and what's not because it seems like everything in the pinball industry is selling like hotcakes. It doesn't matter what it is. A year or two ago before COVID, you could go on and almost find any pinball machine for sale. Even if it was at a ridiculous price, you could find it for sale on Pinside. Now it's hard to find any pinball machine for sale. on pin side used or new.
    61:47
    Yeah. And, and that's true. I think the only thing that has been in stock is stranger things, which actually I think would be a decent game. Like I think it'd be fine. Like I would, I would take a stranger things. So, so that's what, okay. So tie this all back. That's our March speculation. It sounds like we kind of agree. We might be seeing something. Well, we'll definitely see something from Stern. Cause that we're coming up on their time to reveal something new. um we don't know anything about cgc we would assume it's been over two years since monster bashed released yeah so we're getting really close to what and i you know the ones that we mentioned are the likely candidates right i mean it this is absolutely all speculation but they're all the candidates and then uh spooky is another speculation um maybe i i pretty for sure they're close enough that they should be revealing so that way they will be wrapping up the rick and morty's and going directly into their next game yeah who knows um who else who else do we say definitely not deeper i guess and maybe maybe american pinball maybe american pinball yeah I would say the predictable options would be Stern, CGC, American Pinball.
    63:10
    Okay. Possibly Spooky. Come on. They just need to actually prove they a real company So I would take yours but I would flip it I would flip American and Spooky I could almost guarantee a spooky but i would be hesitant on american okay so all right so let that the beginning of march we'll find out here at the end of march let's let's give it a little bit over a month okay okay i'd say six weeks because i think everybody's behind making games i agree so um don't let me forget we need to reveal our winner for for the houdini translate too okay that'll be great okay i want to get into this i know well we can take some time on this last uh topic i definitely want to dig into it's juicy it's meaty all right josh has a take on this and i actually have a different take so let's find out okay so i've been sitting here i've been thinking because we were talking about zeppelin i felt like zeppelin kind of had a lukewarm reception i mean people loved it but it doesn't have the buzz i feel like avengers got i don't feel like it has the buzz that turtles got so i started thinking back and i'm wondering if and i want to know from the audience like i want you to comment on our post it's going to be called the winter curse and the reason i am calling it the winter curse is i feel like when stern releases a pinball machine anywhere in that november to january area it is lukewarm at best and And I can't speculate on cells because we have no hard numbers. Well, we can speculate, but we have no hard numbers.
    64:52
    But I want to go through this list really quick. I'm going to give you the list, and I think it speaks for itself. Okay. So 2020s was Zeppelin. It's hard to give a definite if it's a lukewarm. Jury's still out. Let's say that. And then last year's was Stranger Things. That was obviously not received well.
    65:20
    And granted, that was more design than it was theme. 2018? Munsters? Yeah, 18, 19, yeah. Sorry, Stranger Things was 19. Munsters? Well, it was January 2019, but we're going by winter release. Yeah, sure. monsters definitely the artwork was fantastic once people started playing it they said it was too basic and the game the gameplay was not where it should be for modern stern the year before that guardians of the galaxy it is a great game now and a lot of people revere it as a very fun game but when it first came out there was a lot of hate on this game a lot of hate yeah the year before that aerosmith it is a good game but when i talk modern modern sterns even let's just talk dadrock pinball machines i do not feel like aerosmith deserves the credit it should when you start talking dadrock obviously acdc is going to come up metallica all those games we're still going back this is each year and the next one is the vault of spider-man and you cannot tell me this thing was received the artwork was good everything else was trash on it yeah well actually okay i thought the skulls were good and this is yeah yeah okay you're right it wasn't received super well it actually plays pretty well and people just didn't like the the cartoon well the funny thing is they They weren't over the top with the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man theme, but they were less impressed with the cartoony Ultimate Spider-Man theme. Yes. Okay. We're still going back. We're almost seven years back now. Ready for this? Okay.
    67:14
    WrestleMania. You cannot argue with me that this one's fantastic. So I'm calling this the Winter Curl. That one is fantastic because Raymond has owned five of them.
    67:25
    Okay. But still, I'm calling it the winner curse because I just went through one, two, three, four, five, six, seven games. Like I said, we went back seven years, seven games. I would argue the best one out of that whole list is probably Aerosmith. I'd say Guardians.
    67:44
    You think – well, sorry. I'm going to go with At the Time. Okay. You mean how they were received at release? At release, yes. Okay. That's her. I just I feel like there's something if Stern's releasing in the winter it almost feels like a miss and I could be entirely wrong I mean looking at this last looking at this list fast forward Stranger Things has obviously before COVID was a thing it was doing fantastic on location Guardians has become a very better game yeah I just I think there's something here I feel like your best games are coming out in your spring summer and fall okay um fall is hit or miss but i think overall your winter window if you had if you had to go to three titles a year instead of the four you get rid of the winter title it's just my saying yeah i i guess my pushback would be that when you look at a lot of these games they were released on very basic code and so if you look at um i i i don't remember super well when like metallic and star trek came out so i can't tell about the evolution of that um however mustang came out it's pretty you know they the code actually improved it wasn't a huge seller walking dead when it came out was a dog and you remember people talked about the heck hillbilly like the horrible call outs yep wrestlemania yeah dog kiss was never a big hit it's kind of grown later but um it kind of came out with a dud um ghostbusters art was great but people hated the code obviously batman 66 for multiple reasons came out and was on bare bones code and people killed it because they said the layout was horrible it doesn't matter what you do with code the layout's horrible and now people like it um guardians of the galaxy same thing the code was so basic um and deadpool same thing they're like yeah it's kind of clunky i don't really get it beetles and monster like it's it's kind of this interesting thing i would say the only ones that universally came out and said oh wow that's great like when the you know from the from the start iron maiden um iron maiden came out the code was great but also and yes it's a great game but keith was working on this game for four years. And so it kind of came pre done. Um, uh, and then when star Wars came out, super complex code, um, and it's still, it still hasn't warmed up to be like a fan favorite. It never really got that second push to make it great, except what people do like the comic version of it. Um, I actually preferred the, uh, the clip art version, but you know, Jurassic park, Again, a Keith game came out. The code was pretty much done. Elvira, when it first came out, it was a little Luke, but because Lyman's been working that along the code. So I think what you are seeing more is an evolution on code is making a bigger deal. Now, this will be the first time that led that a winter release has come out with near complete code. and so I think that's going to be what will be the deciding factor I agree with you to a point that it seems to be a little bit of a nadir that you're not that it has been a less well received game but I also think the code was never there and now that they have hired more coders they're able to spit out the code a lot faster you know it's Avengers is already at 1.0 code, right? Yeah. And that came out less than six months ago. And remember how long we used to wait for that stuff? So I'm hoping that that's what it is.
    72:05
    But yeah, you do have something valid. There is something there. I don't think it's quite as cut and dry, but there's something to what you're saying. Yeah, like I said, I feel like the hits are not in the winter months. And I don't know if Christmas plays into that. I don't know if everyone's feeling broke. Even if you're not of the Christian faith, I mean, a lot of people celebrate some type of gift-giving holiday in November, December. Like, November, December is like we're ramping down. It's been a crazy year. Let's get it with family. let's let's have some meals and so usually people are feeling broke from either traveling or from or gift giving whatever it may be i i wonder if that plays into it winter blues maybe just like january and february people are still kind of like booting up the day and then march comes along and the warm weather comes out and spring fever i i also think that with led zeppelin you were talking about not having a lot of people talk about it i think there is something to be said about a slightly older demographic. Yeah. I mean, this is a 70s band. This isn't like an 80s band.
    73:19
    And so I think that there's a little bit that you're looking in the 50 and 60-year-olds who actually had the possible chance of seeing Led Zeppelin. Yeah. Like there's no chance I would have seen Led Zeppelin. I was born in 74. So unless I went to a concert when I was six. and so like I'm are they as active in promoting and talking there are some really big promoters out there but I just don't know how much they are going on pin side or posting about the stuff so I wonder what the sales are like I wish we had more numbers but that's a good question I've liked Led Zeppelin so far the five games well and like we said jury's still out hopefully a led zeppelin breaks the winter curse is what i'm calling it and i really do i feel like a lot of these games are either underappreciated or they just never got out of that rut they were stuck in when they first came out yeah so uh so reply reply to us and tell us what you think if there's something going on about the winter months and their release and obviously there must not be too big of a deal because if there was stern would just stop releasing in the winter months.
    74:39
    And so there's, there's gotta be some validity like against my argument, but I just, I, like I said, I feel like if I, if I was a designer, I would be straying away from those winter months. And I just got thinking about this. If you look at Keith Owens design schedule,
    74:56
    uh, Iron Maiden was in the spring dress at park was in the summer. Avengers was in the fall. His next release. if we go by just guesstimation of where everything else is released, he may be the next winter release.
    75:14
    You mean next year? Yes. Yeah, maybe. So either December or January. Yeah. Yeah, who knows? That'll be interesting to see how that goes.
    75:27
    Really quickly, back, because one thing we didn't cover with a possible Stern release here at the end of the month, beginning of next month, who's the designer let's let's hurry and run back through steve rich she just did zeppelin we had keith on one on avengers we had borg on turtles eddie on stranger things either okay i don't know if gomez is going to be throwing something out there i mean he's he's always been the uh kind of the on-call guy you know the hey we need a pinch runner so he throws him in and that's we all know the story about Deadpool which turned out to be a great success but I mean George is running the company so is it possible George does the one that maybe I think it's more likely that we'll see an Eddie design and we'll see what happens do you think we end up having a left field in the fact that we have maybe like another not Dennis Norman but one of those kapow titles or Something where the designer isn't always a guarantee lineup at Stern, but they were contracted to do a pinball machine? I think there's more uncertainty about this next release than there probably has been with previous releases. Based off the timeline, I would assume it's Eddie.
    76:43
    That seems right, if Eddie's lined up to do another one. I would say that it makes sense to have Eddie do the next one. Yeah. I'm trying to think, what other designers am I leaving out at Stern? Well, the big three would be Keith's team, and then you have John Borg's team, and then you have Steve Ritchie's team. And they seem to do well in keeping those teams together. It's not like they're mixing and matching much. Yeah.
    77:15
    So, yeah, I think at least the designers likely either – yeah. If I were to bet, I would say we're going to see the next Brian Eddy game.
    77:28
    It has to be. There's no way. Like I said, unless if it's a contract design. Yeah, that's what I would say. Because looking back, back over the list, unless if it's a re-release, like another Star Wars comic. Yeah, like a vault type thing or like a home pin.
    77:47
    They have been on record that says they want three Cornerstone games. Right. Yeah. And so the third cornerstone game is probably around April. Right. Yeah. Just looking at the, just looking at the track record, it's, it's more than likely got to be Eddie because we've had Richie. This has gone chronologically. Richie, Elwin, Borg,
    78:13
    Eddie, and then Dennis Norman, which would be a contract. And then Elwin. Yeah. And Dennis was in the can for a while. I mean, that was kind of when it was ready.
    78:29
    But we can see it. I'm seeing very consistent here because, like I said, after Eddie, it went back to L1, then Richie, then Borg, then Gomez, and then another Gomez. So Beatles and Deadpool. Wow. The only ones that seem to jump a little bit is it seems that Elwynn's on a tear of designing faster. Because if you look at Munsters, Borg, Knight, Richie, and then you have Jurassic Park, Elwynn. Then Elvira's a throwout, right? And then you have Stranger Things, which is Eddie. And then you have Borg. And then if you look at the previous, Richie followed before. But then Richie didn't, and it ended up being Elwin. So then Richie was after that. So I'm sure they mix and match a little bit just depending on some release schedules because it's not like they – I'm sure they have a few games that are ready, and they just need to make sure that it lines up with whatever they want to release. Yeah. So that's what I'm bringing it down to. It's either a Gomez slash contract design or it's an Eddie. Eddie's up to bat, at least from the timeline. My bet is Eddie.
    79:47
    Cool. Oh, let's hurry and do our giveaway. Absolutely. The last episode was fun. The Zencaster that we usually record with decided to update their website, and it was very nice of them because I hadn't a clue until we got into the recording session with Jack Hager and Dave Fix and with Scott, and it was kind of fun to learn because i couldn't get into the recording session once i got in then it kicked me out we couldn't get jack in it was it was crazy and then at the end of everything i was grateful that all your guys's stuff uploaded but mine did not and i had to go back through and re-record all my lines which is always oh so fun and it just it was it was just weird i've I ended up contacting Zencaster and they were, they were generous enough to tell, tell me that, that you could still record with their own website. They gave me the old website. That's actually what we're using tonight, but they said that they've made the adjustments and the changes to the new website. So we'll see. We'll, we'll see if we keep it on classic or whatnot. It was, it was a lot of work, but like I was saying, Dave fix is generous enough to give away a Houdini translate. We're going to do that right now. The agreement was if you went on, commented, shared, liked, we would put you in for the drawing. We have a handful of people. We've got a decent amount of people entering in for this. So let's hurry and go up and down the list. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I don't know.
    81:28
    Yeah. and landing on Scott Voigt so I will give you your information we'll get you in touch with American Pinball we'll get you your Translight thanks for entering and thanks for listening to our episode so I think that pretty much does it for us tonight if you remember please message in for the winter curse on your opinions um you got anything else for scott before we give our outro no i think it's great i mean certainly uh and you know what actually i do want to know i want you to tell me what you're playing right now and of all the games that has really connected with you over the last couple months what is the one that you have really gravitated towards for me it's been avengers um but i'm kind of wondering what you guys have been playing because maybe i need to to branch out and try some other things you need to get on the bandwagon for a scott pilgrim versus the world okay well that's not available right now so no uh it's always fun recording with you sky it's been a while since it's just been me and you it's been kind of interview heavy lately and uh you know but i think it's fun i i love being able to have the people on and uh we're going to talk about different people coming up but also if you guys have suggestions of people you want us to talk to. I love talking to the interview people because it brings a different dimension other than Josh and I just talking. However, it's always a lot of fun for us to do it old school and just talk about what we think is going on. And really, it's been a while since we've been able to talk about our own gaming habits. So go ahead, Josh, take us out. If you want to get a hold of us, we are Loserkidpinballpodcast at gmail.com. We actually respond a little better on Facebook via Messenger. So if you want to contact us, you can either contact Scott at Scott Larson or me at Josh Roop or at Loser Kid Pinball. Same with Instagram and Twitter, both at Loser Kid Pinball as well. If you want to check us out, our main base is SoundCloud.com slash Loser Kid Pinball podcast. And if you just want to chit chat, we're pretty chit chatable, I guess. we get people reaching out every once in a while so but yeah thanks for tuning in we appreciate you guys likes your listens it's always fun yeah thanks everybody we'll see you in about two weeks see you in two weeks
    84:20
    Bye.