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Pinball Magazine & Pinball News November 2020 recap PINcast

Pinball News & Pinball Magazine Pincast·podcast_episode·1h 59m·analyzed·Dec 3, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

EU tariff threatens pinball exports; Deep Root shows progress with subscription model plans; Stern releases Star Wars comic pin variant.

Summary

In November 2020, the EU imposed a surprise 25% tariff on US-manufactured pinball machines and parts, significantly impacting pricing in Europe and threatening major manufacturers' export revenues. Deep Root Pinball demonstrated a production model of their game at a coffee shop with mixed reception on lighting and graphics quality, while cached website data revealed plans for a $4,999 arcade model with optional monthly subscription for updates and DLC. Stern Pinball announced a Star Wars comic art pin variant using artwork from their arcade version, positioning it as a lower-priced alternative to Jersey Jack's Guns N' Roses premium offering.

Key Claims

  • A $6,000 US pinball machine costs approximately €8,000-8,500 ($8,500 USD) in Europe before the tariff due to existing taxes and shipping

    high confidence · Jonathan and Martin calculating European pricing impacts; direct calculation with concrete numbers provided

  • The 25% EU tariff adds roughly $1,700 to a $6,000 machine, making it approximately $10,000 total in Europe

    high confidence · Direct calculation: '$6,000 to €8,000-8,500 plus 25% tariff equals roughly $10,000'

  • 40-50% of pinball games from major manufacturers are exported, with approximately 25% of exports going to Europe

    medium confidence · Jonathan: 'basically common knowledge within the pinball community that usually 40 to 50% of games are being exported' with estimate that 25% of those go to Europe

  • Deep Root's cached website showed a base price of $4,999 for the arcade model with a $549/year subscription requirement for updates and DLC

    high confidence · Martin accessing Google cache of pinapi.turnalogic.com showing pricing from September 23 staging site

  • Deep Root mentioned a four-phase manufacturing program increasing production over 3-4 months

    medium confidence · Martin: 'he also indicated that they would start manufacturing at a slow pace and that they have a four-phase program'

  • The Star Wars comic art pin is priced approximately $1,000-1,500 more than the pro version

    medium confidence · Jonathan discussing pricing relative to base Star Wars pin, noting it's positioned as counter to Jersey Jack's premium Guns N' Roses

  • The tariff has been ongoing for years related to Boeing/Airbus subsidies dispute with WTO approval for US to impose counter-tariffs on EU goods like wine and cheese

    high confidence · Martin explaining the historical context and WTO decision allowing EU retaliation

Notable Quotes

  • “basically a 6,000 dollar pinball machine is like a 10,000 dollar game in euro”

    Martin (Pinball News editor) @ Early conversation — Summarizes the dramatic price impact of the tariff on European customers

  • “I think there's a lot more to go in there yet but there was some good news”

    Jonathan (Pinball Magazine editor) @ Deep Root section — Indicates Deep Root's demo showed improvement over previous year but still incomplete

  • “Here we're talking about a $5,000 pinball machine, and you still have to pay extra to play the game with the best feature possible.”

    Jonathan @ Subscription model discussion — Critiques the novelty of charging subscription on top of high hardware cost

  • “This is an always-on machine... a pinball machine does use quite a lot more power than a flat-screen TV”

    Jonathan @ Deep Root features discussion — Raises practical concern about Deep Root's always-on technology for home use

  • “I'm still wondering how many of these games they actually will be making and selling because the price point is basically like for a thousand more you get the real deal”

    Jonathan @ Star Wars comic art pin discussion — Questions commercial viability of the pin variant compared to full-size arcade version

Entities

European UnionorganizationJonathan HoustonpersonMartinpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyRobert MuellerpersonStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Tariff threatens major manufacturers (Stern, Jersey Jack) with potential 50% cancellation of pre-orders from European customers

    medium · Jonathan speculating '50-50 half the people who got orders in will pay the extra and half will cancel' and Martin agreeing 'that's going to be a big hit'

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root planning four-phase manufacturing program with slow initial production increasing over 3-4 months

    medium · Martin referencing Robert Mueller's statement about phased production; no specific timeline or production locations disclosed

  • ?

    event_signal: Deep Root held What's Brewing coffee shop demonstration November 21, 2020 with live-streamed Q&A with Robert Mueller and Stephen Bowden

    high · Fliptronic stream on Twitch; Jonathan and Martin discussing details observed in footage

  • ?

    leak_detection: Cached website data revealed Deep Root's pricing ($4,999 arcade model) and subscription-based DLC/update model ($549/year)

    high · Google cache of pinapi.turnalogic.com discovered by Blueberry Johnson on Pinside; dated September 23, 2020

  • $

    market_signal: 25% EU tariff on US pinball machines and parts effective November 10, 2020, increasing European prices by approximately 70% total

    high · Direct regulatory announcement with calculated pricing impacts by hosts; affects 40-50% of major manufacturers' export revenue

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.359

0:00
Europe imposes 25% tariff on pinball machines. Deep Root Show's latest rather game. Stern launches Star Wars comic art pin.
0:19
Hi, my name is Jonathan Houston. I'm the editor of Pinball Magazine. And welcome to the Pinball News and Pinball Magazine pin cast. I'm very near with... I'm Martin there, and the editor of Pinball News, and we're here with... Well, I'm here with Jonathan, and we're going to look back at what was actually an action-packed month of November 2020. Right. And, yeah, it's actually... You know, sometimes we say it's been a fairly quiet month until we end up talking for about an hour, but... Or two. Yeah, or two sometimes. But this time, I think there is a lot been going on, even though, you know, there's not been a huge number of game releases. There's still been a lot of industry news, and that's what we're here for. Right, so we're going to summarize all of that, and discuss it, of course, and we'll try to keep it under two hours. Definitely. Okay, so let's start off with our first headline, which is about the European Union imposing a surprise imposition of a 25% import tariff on various U.S. products, or U.S. manufactured products, and caught up in all that were pinball machines and pinball parts, which means that anything from the 10th of November onwards that's sent from the US to any European Union country and the United Kingdom at the moment will have to pay a 25% import tariff at the point where it hits customs,
1:50
which came as a bit of a shock, I think, to a lot of people. I was really expecting that. Well, if you're talking about a $6,000 pinball machine, by the time it's imported to Europe, there's already an import tax being applied outside of the 25%. I think that's like 20%. And then there's VAT being added, which is, on luxury goods, 90 to 21% in most European countries. So, basically, adding another 25% to that, yeah, that makes pinball machines kind of, well, not kind of, but basically, I'll be passing on new in-box pinball machines.
American Pinball
company
Dutch Pinballcompany
Haggis Pinballcompany
Homepincompany
George Gomezperson
Randy Martinezperson
Blueberry Johnsonperson
Antoinette Johnsonperson
Stephen Bowdenperson
Star Wars comic art pinproduct
Retro-Atomic Zombie Adventurelandproduct
Guns N' Rosesproduct

market_signal: Star Wars comic art pin priced $1,000-1,500 higher than pro version but significantly lower than full-size arcade game

medium · Jonathan discussing pricing strategy to capture market between Jersey Jack premium and base Stern offerings

  • ?

    announcement: Stern Pinball announced Star Wars comic art pin variant using Randy Martinez artwork from arcade version

    high · November 2020 announcement; positioned as counterpoint to Jersey Jack's premium Guns N' Roses offering

  • ?

    announcement: Deep Root Pinball demonstrated production model with new pin bar display interface and rounded corner improvements

    high · November 21, 2020 live demonstration at What's Brewing with streaming video available; Robert Mueller and Stephen Bowden present

  • ?

    product_concern: Deep Root's playfield lighting rated as underwhelming compared to Total Nuclear Annihilation and Guns N' Roses benchmarks

    medium · Jonathan: 'playfield lighting quite underwhelming'; Martin noting 'it looked very dark' compared to competitor games

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root's subscription model for updates/DLC represents novel approach untested in pinball industry, modeled after gaming platforms

    high · Detailed discussion of $549/year subscription for DLC, updates, support, and merchandise benefits; no existing pinball precedent noted

  • ?

    technology_signal: Deep Root's touch-screen pin bar display raises hygiene concerns in high-use commercial environments

    medium · Jonathan noting concern about 'having any kind of touch surface' that accumulates 'various nasties' and 'spill drinks or cigarettes'

    • 2:44
    Yeah, I'm not surprised. And it's worth adding that all this is added on top of the cost of shipping as well. Yes. So obviously if you're sending a container of machines over, a distributor or a large buyer, then you can consolidate some of those costs and amalgamate them into the price per machine. But if you're just sending a couple of games over, then you have to pay quite a lot of shipping charges, on top of which you then charge the customs and the VAT tax as well. Right. So to put things in perspective for you as listeners,
    3:22
    take, for example, total nuclear annihilation. Prior to this 25% tariff, there was a $6,000 pinball machine, which, if you could buy it in Europe, you'd probably be paying 8,000 euro, which is like, let's say, roughly 8,500 dollars. So there's basically 2,500 dollars added in taxes and shipping costs, basically, and there's still hardly any profit. So, and now add 25% on top of that. Yeah, so it's going up to about 70% more expensive for a game in Europe than it is in the US. Right.
    4:09
    And did that figure that you gave include shipping, or was that a separate price? Well, the game originally cost €6,000 without shipping, and then, of course, by the time you get it to Europe, you're looking at 8,000 euro, 8,500 dollars, something like that. Right, okay, so add on another 1,700 on top of that, you're up to 9,200. Okay, so basically a 6,000 dollar pinball machine is like a 10,000 dollar game in euro. Yeah, 10,000. Yeah. So that's obviously going to impact on sales of new games from now on until either this gets resolved or somebody manages to find a way around it. I can't imagine there's an easy way to dodge import duties or it would be a big business for someone to do it but... Well, maybe we can smuggle them into the UK and then from the UK move them to Europe and... Well, yeah, the UK is in an interesting position. I don't want to get too political on all this because we're here talking about Pimble, but the UK is leaving the has left the EU and did it the 1st of January this year and as of the 1st of January next year there will be complete separation at the moment there is no agreement between the EU and the UK about exactly how that's going to work as far as tariffs and trade and all kinds of things agriculture and fisheries and healthcare and sharing of information for anti-terrorist operations and things like that and police. But that's all still being negotiated and there's hopes that by the time this year is up, that a deal would have been sorted out and ratified by the 27 other EU countries as well as the UK. But, you know, this is the beginning of December and we've got until the end of December to sort it out. Now, as part of that, it may be that the UK has to follow EU tariffs, at least initially, on imports. So there's no guarantee that just because the UK leaves the European Union at the end of this year that that 25% tariff on people, machines and parts as well, it's not just machines, it's also if you're importing rubbers, LEDs, flipper parts, anything like that, they've also gone up by 25%. there's no guarantee that that will just vanish come the 1st of January. And even if it does, I'm sure that if they come into the UK, if they go from the UK into Europe, then that 25% will be added at that point. So I don't think the UK is going to be a sort of backdoor into Europe. I think there's a lot of negotiation going on to make sure that doesn't happen. Well, maybe that might be overseen in all the negotiations, you never know. But, yeah, what are the chances with Biden becoming president that such tariffs will be dropped again? What are your thoughts on that? It's possible, but this is a long-running issue. It all goes back to supposedly legal subsidies paid to both Boeing and Airbus for manufacturing of planes. the US imposed tariffs on the EU of a similar kind, on things like cheese and wine. That happened about a year ago, I believe, and that's been ongoing. And so that was when it was agreed by the World Trade Organization, the WTO, that it was allowed for the US to do that. It was just recently agreed that Europe could do a tit-for-tat, move and impose this tariff that we're talking about on US goods. Now, it's a bit galling that it's impacting pinball because the tariff is designed to only apply to products which are available from sources other than the US. So it's kind of like if you're looking at, I don't know, wine, for instance, that's been brought in. Well, you can get wine from South America, from Australia, New Zealand, and you can get Californian wine and other wine from the US. So that would make American wine 25% more expensive and less competitive and it would hit American wine producers to the benefit of other producers. But with pinball machines, well, apart from Dutch pinball and I suppose you also mentioned Haggis pinball as well, and some other companies. Yeah, Homepin. Some other companies which we'll be talking about a bit later. Now, the vast majority of pinball does come from America, so it doesn't really fit into the intention of the tariff. So, would it be possible to file for pinball machines to be excluded from the tariff? Could do, but it's probably such a small amount of impact on it, in terms of financial trade, that I don't imagine anybody's going to be bothered considering it. All you need is someone at Gasthof that says, okay, pinball machines are made in America only, and as such we don't have to apply the team. Perhaps it will be reviewed to see whether it's hitting the businesses that it's meant to But just to address your point, I don't think there will be a quick resolution to this dispute Because it has been going on for years And even with a change of leadership in the US I think these things tend to be almost above political parties they're sort of supranational and they're things which are considered as part of much bigger international trade agreements. Okay, so it will be interesting not only to see how this will impact pinball distributors in Europe, but also the pinball companies themselves, because as we know, basically common knowledge within the pinball community that usually 40 to 50% of games are being exported.
    11:02
    And with such a tariff being applied to Europe, let's say that at least 25% of games being exported go into Europe. if those numbers go down that's going to affect companies like Stern and Jersey Jack big time yeah I think you're right and initially I think people will be just waiting to see, they'll be biding their time and maybe saying okay I've got this game pre-ordered but can I keep my order but not take delivery of it yet and just see what happens, whether this gets sorted out and that's particularly the case with the UK given what I was just saying to see what happens come the 1st of January but it will come to the point where people just say well okay this isn't going to change, this isn't going to go away this 25% so I have to either decide whether I'm going to pay it or cancel my order and it will be interesting to see which way people go I imagine it will probably if I were to pluck figures out of the air I'd probably say 50-50 half the people who got orders in will pay the extra and half will cancel right, oh well then still, that's going to be a big hit for companies like Stern and Jersey Jack the other companies Spooky and American I don't think they have well American Pinball does have distribution in Europe I don't think Spooky officially has well yeah, a couple but not those numbers are not anywhere near like 40-50% of the games they make. So for them the impact will be less, I suppose.
    12:49
    Yeah, I think so. But all round it's bad news for all manufacturers and buyers. And also if you're owning a game and want to buy parts, most of them will come through America at some point. They're made in China. Or we go back to the situation where people start basically taking parts of other games to keep other games running. Yeah, it could be. Perhaps we end up with donor games. But then again, Pimble, in the current situation, the machine prices seem to have rocketed. So I don't think parting out a machine is quite as an attractive option as it was at one time when you couldn't, some machines you couldn't sell. These days you can't get enough machines to sell. Right. So people are always going to want to fix up machines in this current climate rather than part them out.
    13:49
    Right. All in all, bad situation. So let's hope a solution will be found in some way and soon, because we all would benefit from that. Let's move on to one of those manufacturers who might potentially be impacted if this tariff runs for some time.
    14:11
    And some good news, actually, from Deep Root Pinball, who've shown the latest version of their retro-atomic zombie Adventureland. Yes, a production model of this game was basically shown and played and demonstrated at the What's Brewing coffee shop on Saturday, November 21st. Yeah, so production maybe in terms of mechanics, not in terms of software, I don't think. It looked like there was still quite a lot of work to do on some of the back office side of it, the diagnostics, the connections, the set-up menus, and all the stuff that they're doing through that rather interesting-looking pin bar, which had a bit of a tweak. Right, I'd have to say that I watched there was a stream by let me look it up if I can see it Fliptronic if I'm not Fliptronic, yes, that's right which is still available on Twitch so you can look that up personally I was looking at the playfield and I was I found the playfield lighting quite underwhelming Well the bar has been raised somewhat Over the last few games From well certainly Jersey Jack And with Guns and Roses But also Stern as well Has been doing some good stuff I would Tend more to reference A game like for example Total Nuclear Annihilation Which has a Light show that absolutely blows Many many games Including Stern games basically out of the water, and of course Guns N' Roses has a stunning light show so it looked very dark and I'd say 90s, which well, that might be something that they want to go for but if you're competing against Guns N' Roses or Avengers or something like that then yeah, your light show has to be on par with those as well but okay that's one of the things I thought meant it wasn't really a production version there's a lot of all this stuff to be developed yet and I think some of the graphics as well that we saw well, we saw was good but there seemed to be a lot more to go in there yet but there was some good news I mean last year in November there were two prototypes at the Houston Arcade Show, and the biggest complaint over there was that nobody seemed to be able to make the center of the shot. Yeah. Well, that's certainly improved. That was very doable on the flip-front extreme. Yeah, absolutely. I should just say they had two models. They had the Extra, which is the top of the range, version which featured the new style back box and also the illuminated side art which I must say look great I'm really very impressed by the side art illumination there looked very vivid obviously not that great for sticking it in the middle of a lineup of other machines because you won't get to see it so it's something you want to showcase but they also had the arcade version there which had a more traditional back box design that Robert's spoken about before, but say Robert Mooder who's head of Deep Root Pimple, and he was there at the Watts Brewing coffee shop along with Stephen Bowden, and they were answering questions that were posed on the stream, and answering some of the questions I should say, and And Steve was demonstrating some of the features that were built into the software and also into the computerized diagnostics menus. Yes.
    18:32
    And it's also good to mention that the edges of the pinball, the corners are now rounded, which was one of the big concerns when the first photos of the game came out. So they solved that Although Yeah, I think that That's another thing I think Didn't look entirely production Quality, it looked a bit Shall we say Like people taking hammers To the corner And smoothed it all off But not in such a way as to look Like a traditional rounded Lock bar But the important thing I think was about it was the display functionality, which showed some of the things they're hoping to do with the pin bar display. And there's a lot going on down there. So I think it's innovative. Yeah, I think it is, actually. Yeah, it's another control surface. Obviously, there are concerns about having any kind of touch surface in this current condition with the ability to pick up various nasties off a flat surface and some questions about what happens if somebody does spill drinks or stuff out cigarettes or whatever and make it into a particularly nasty surface that you wouldn't want to touch because you have to use it to start the game. Yeah. There's no start button on it. but apart from that I think some of the things they were doing on there looked very interesting as far as picking modes and one thing one downer I suppose about that would be something I mentioned a while ago was it's a very narrow wide display and I think when Stephen was going through and showing to write the switch matrix yes you can't sort of see everything all at once because it's a very... There's no chance of seeing where the switches are on an image of the playfield because it's the wrong aspect ratio for that. So you did have to keep going through pages and pages of switches until you found the one that you wanted. So I thought that was a negative, but it's certainly more than outweighed by all the positives and all the things you can do with the pin bar. So, yeah, I think it was a very productive demonstration of how the game works. or good work, anyway. Not so much the best presentation of gameplay, but oh well. No, I think it was, it wasn't a launch, it wasn't a reveal, it was them putting the game into a coffee shop and getting people to come and play it, and then it was also streamed at the same time. So it wasn't a professional launch in any sense. I won't make any more comments about professional launches but it was what it was there and people got a chance and got updated on where Deep Root are with the development of that game I think that's from that point of view I think it's been good for them right, ok now there was actually more news on Deep Root well, not much long after this review video, so to speak.
    22:13
    And it had to do with, if I understood it correctly, during the video or on the back box was shown a URL, a web address. Yes. And apparently there's somebody by the name of Blueberry Johnson on Pinside was able to visit that address and access the cache memory of the website. And it turned out that there were pages in there that are not publicly available, but could be accessed through that cache. I have really no idea if I'm explaining it correctly, because I'm not a computer wizard in that field, so to speak. No. Well, what actually happened was on the display, in the track mode, it has a message that comes up that says to find out more about the game, visit pinapi.turnalogic.com. Right. Okay, and so of course people will go there. I went there and had a look, and it's a blank page.
    23:25
    There is some code behind it, but not much. However, as you rightly said, if you go back and look at the Google cache of that address, then you can see some pages that used to be there. And there was some interesting information. I think they used that site as a staging site for what will eventually be the API where people will connect through to the DeepRoot Pinball interface in order to access various parts of the website. and on there in that cache were interesting things about what,
    24:07
    I would say what they are planning, a suggestion of at some point what they were thinking of doing. Now this was updated back in September the 23rd I think it was, so it's not massively out of date, but it referred to a base price of $4,999 for the arcade model which sounds great. That's undercutting Stern's pro prices quite considerably and even with a 25% tariff in the EU that gap is widened further. But I think the downside to that was there was also a suggestion of a requirement or certainly a suggestion of paying a monthly subscription in order to get updates and additional downloadable content into the game. So it's almost like, I suppose, like buying a game or buying an Xbox and then you subscribe to their gaming service and you can download more games or have access to more games and get updates and additional content, which is only available if you do subscribe. Right. Which will be a new model. I don't think anybody's ever tried that before.
    25:25
    Well, it's not even a pinball. No, absolutely not. And the difference with Xbox is, I mean, or all these gaming platforms, basically you're buying a $50, $60, $70 game, and if you want the extras, you pay extra. Here we're talking about a $5,000 pinball machine, And you still have to pay extra to play the game with the best feature possible. Yeah, I suppose the question then would be, well, what's the minimum you can pay in order to get a fully loaded or a feature-complete and software-complete version of that game? If it's $5,000 now and, as you say, you subscribe for $50 a month which was a minimum one-year subscription, by the way, which I think was priced at $500, so you're looking at another $500 on top of that.
    26:30
    Will, after one year, will you get a complete game? Or would you have to subscribe for year two to get the bug fixes that are introduced in year one and then year three will give you more content? Or can you just go in two years later or three years later after you've bought in, buy all the updates up to that point. But it means you've got two years of playing an incomplete game. Right. So who wants to do that? But who says to get updates every month? Because if the programmers are working on a different game, they might not have time to make updates for your game, and basically you're paying a subscription fee for a month with no access. Oh, I should say that there's actually $549 for a year, so you get one month free. But it's not just for updates to the game.
    27:27
    It's kind of like the Stern Insider and the Spooky Fan Club and things like that. You get other benefits. you get, interestingly, what they call free enhanced support for your $50 a month. It doesn't sound like free, but okay. No, it makes you wonder what support you get if you don't pay it. You also get a flat rate on shipping of pinball purchases as well as merchandise. as well. You get if you buy five games you get a $2500 store credit to spend on this for those of you who are buying in bulk. You get some deep root merchandise, swag, that kind of thing. You get advanced access to future games when they're released or when they're announced.
    28:21
    And you get, what else do they say? is say you skip the line on priority and get priority shipments of I don't know whether that's games or merchandise but anyway and then you get the DLC which is the downloadable content and updates released during the all of them are released during the active membership which kind of makes it sound like you need to sign up on an ongoing basis but let's say it was early days yet and And this, as we say, was only on a staging website. It may not be something which they end up rolling out, but it might be. Right. And this subscription, is that tied to one game?
    29:12
    Or if you're a distributor, could you take the subscription and all your games are included? That's yet to be shown.
    29:21
    Well, presumably not for a distributor, but if you're an operator. then yeah maybe you can buy them in bulk and get a discount that way right so it's not like let's say you're an operator you're buying five Rasa games but you'd have to take a subscription for each of those games instead of okay I got a subscription and all these five games that you bought will be updated on that same that one subscription model we don know that part of the stage right But what we do know is that if you go to the Apple App Store you will find there is a DeepRoot Pin Access app which you can download
    30:08
    which obviously doesn't do anything yet because it can't connect to any machines, but when it does you'll be able to, according to the blurb that is on the website, you see This app unlocks worldwide access to log in, play, save and interact with our pinball machines and community. Users can save preferences, log in to play or administer machines, record and view scores and submit reviews. Owners can review support documents and videos and submit support tickets. I don't know whether your phone is the best. I've seen I'm not sure how thick the manuals of Deepwood will be but browsing through a Pimble manual on your phone I'm not sure whether that's the best device but okay yeah well there's the app there as I say I don't know whether you can actually install it yet whether it's available and I assume it's free rather than costing anything but you never know maybe there's a monthly subscription to that too yeah So, one thing that I picked up, or actually a couple of things that I picked up from the stream that I quickly want to mention.
    31:27
    Let me check my notes. Robert Buehler mentioned that the game is an always-on machine, which I find quite interesting. I mean, my first introduction with always-on machines was when I bought a new flat-screen television, which apparently is always-on, which is nice. But a pinball machine does use quite a lot more power than a flat-screen TV, so I'm not sure whether you, if you buy that for the home, I don't think you want that on all the time. I think it would be like a TV. you turn it off, but you don't really turn it off unless you unplug it. No, you press the power button underneath and it puts it into a sleep mode from which you can wake up and check for updates overnight or during the designated hours whenever you tell it that the game isn't going to be in use. Right. So that shouldn't require much in the way of power. Right, okay. And there were also, well, Roland Hulot was asked about production of the game I'm not saying that he avoided the answer, but he didn't give much info either, other than that from the time when they were airing the stream, he said there would be more info on production in two weeks, which is basically around now. So it could happen any day now. but he also indicated that they would start manufacturing at a slow pace and that they have a four-phase program which is going to be increasing production over the course of the next three to four months. Right. No indication where the game is going to be made or when at this point. Right. So, and in the meantime, well, we haven't heard anything about, like you said, manufacturing. I know that Antoinette Johnson, who is featured in Pinball Magazine No. 5,
    33:47
    she's the girl with the colorful hair. Amazing hair. Yeah, amazing hair, yeah. She visited Deep Root. I think she was on her way moving from Flairwork, Florida. to California. She visited the Deep Root, but just as some reporters a couple of months ago, she had to sign an NDA.
    34:15
    So she couldn't tell me much other than that she was very impressed with what she had seen. Good news. Great. Yeah. Let's hope they can get those games out and available to buy and to download the additional content soon. because I think we're all really wanting to play them. Well, I want to play any new games, to be honest, at the moment. I don't know if you're in the same situation I am, but I'm not getting out to see new games on location and I haven't seen any new games for a while.
    34:48
    No, well, the situation is the same for me. The newest game that I've played is... Stranger Things? of things, last January at the EAG show, I'm in the fortunate position that there is a small sort of arcade two blocks away from my house, and they recently added a Houdini and a Willy Wonka, which are sort of new games, because they were not that available for me anyway to play, so if I want to, I can play Willy Wonka or Houdini.
    35:34
    It's an interesting combination, actually, because the flow on Willy Wonka, if you then turn to Houdini, well, that's going to be a slight letdown, I'd say.
    35:48
    But, well, to each his own, I suppose. Yeah, certainly very different play styles, that's for sure. Yes. Okay, well, we'll come back to those companies a bit later, but let's head over to Elk Grove Village, well, obviously where Jesse Jack are as well, and see what's been going on at Stern Pinball in the month of November. Right. So, if you may recall, I think we mentioned it a couple of times in previous podcasts,
    36:23
    the rumoured next Stern Pinball was Led Zeppelin, and that was actually expected to be announced either during or right after Pinball Expo in October. Well, nothing was announced then, and neither in November, although the heavy metal game was taken into production, which you can sort of see as a rock-themed pinball machine. and then Scourge came in November with an announcement of a new game but not what we expected it to be as it turns out to be
    37:07
    a re-seed of the Star Wars pin but now as a in the comic book version of Star Wars so it's still Star Wars but now with comic book art and they did that earlier with the Steve Ritchie arcade version so to speak and now they use basically the same art package and they threw that on the pin model so to speak which is a completely different design by George Gomez by the way yeah it's a similar art package I would say it's exactly the same but yeah Yeah, they've actually taken some of the aspects from the premium because when they did the comic art version of the Steve Ritchie design arcade game, they did a pro and a premium. They didn't do the LE because the LE was limited edition and if they brought out a comic book version of limited edition, then it wouldn't be an LE, or the original wouldn't be the LE. It would be limited to the same number. But, yeah, this pin version is a combination of artwork, of cabinet artwork and backbox artwork, and transite from the premium and the pro comic art versions done by the same artist, Randy Martinez.
    38:34
    And, yeah, it kind of completes the line-up. They did the film version of the full size, and then they brought out the film version of the pin, they did the comic version of the full size and now they've brought out the comic version with the pin so that's all the boxes ticked for Star Wars I think right, ok so I'm still wondering how many of these games they actually will be making and selling because the price point is basically like for a thousand more you get the real deal yeah, I think it's about $1500 but obviously I suppose they think that Jersey Jack have gone high and taken the premium end of the holiday sales with Guns N' Roses. So that left a bit of a gap at the low end.
    39:27
    Low being a relative term, of course, when it comes to the price of the pin. And I thought, well, this is a good counter to that for people who haven't got that kind of money to spend on the Guns N' Roses and would like a Star Wars game. Well, here's another option. if that's something that floats your boat. Right. So, I'm still curious. Obviously, I haven't been to America, well, the entire year, basically. This year, yeah. Yeah. But I'd say it's still very rare to find any of these pin games anywhere.
    40:06
    Well, they'll only be in the home, of course, because they have coin mechs. Yeah, okay, but still, there. I think the only time I found them was in Las Vegas at the Flipper Club, which is there, which is a private Flipper Club basically, and I found at least one of them, I think it was a Transformers or Avengers pin model. But they're obviously very rare to come by. So that sort of leaves me wondering how big production of these games is. I don't see them coming up for sale often because they're home games. I suppose they might not be sold through the sort of regular outlets or the regular websites where collectors and enthusiasts trade. Well, you still can put them up on eBay if you want to get rid of one. Yeah, true. Yeah, eBay would be a good place. but I don't know whether people, I haven't seen any up for sale, but then, as I say, they go into homes, and they're probably one-off purchases that people don't trade them in the same way that collectors and enthusiasts do. When the next new game comes out, they need to sell one of their collections in order to make space. This probably goes into the average family home and stays there for decades.
    41:38
    Right, okay, well anyway, enough about Star Wars comic book pin and what have you, because there's lots of other news from Stern as well. For example, if you happen to be an owner of Elvira House of Horrors, then you're advised to make sure that the date in your game is correct, and basically play the game during the month of December, especially the Santa Claus Conquers the Martians Haunt mode, as there appear to be some Easter eggs hidden in there that will only appear during the month of December. Yeah, there should be 25 days of them. If you didn't know about it before now, you've missed a couple of them, but you can keep going. I'm sure there'll be something special going all the way up to the 25th. And on that note, I did see a Facebook post, I think it was, from Joe Kamikow saying, if you're looking for Christmas Easter eggs, don't forget to check out the Beatles, Beatlemania pin on Christmas Day. Apparently there's one in there. I think we can probably guess what that is for those who have heard the Beatles wish people Merry Christmas. So it might be something like that. But either way, on Christmas Day, don't forget to turn on your Beatles, the Beatles, Beatlemania pinball machine and see what the Easter egg is. Right. Now, speaking of holidays, well, we just... I should just add, just to interrupt you, sorry about that. So, of course, you can't wait till the end to set the clock forward on your game. Yeah, or if you missed a couple of days, set it backwards. Yes, good point.
    43:33
    Now, since you mentioned holidays, obviously we just had Thanksgiving and Black Friday, Cyber Monday, all that kind of stuff.
    43:44
    So in case you were living under a rock, then you missed out a great marketing promotion on Stern Merchandise, which basically finished December 1st. But still now you know that you missed it. Yes, and another promotion which Stern are running It may have finished by now, I don't know But they announced during November At some point in November, I forget which date exactly That the next 50 Stranger Things machines that they sell Will include a signed Stranger Things Collectors Card Woohoo! Well, if you were on the fence about buying one or not That's probably going to seal the deal for you, isn't it? That signed collector card. Yeah, not sure what to think of this. I still get the feeling that they're basically stuck with a bunch of games and they're hoping that this will... This is not the first time that they've done something that... giving something extra if you buy the game. Board games and other kinds of merchandise and all those kind of stranger things. So... Randomly drops into boxes. Right, so... So anyway... Make up that one you will, and I'm not going to get into any negative... Except bought one, and you're unboxing it, check to make sure that you haven't accidentally forgotten the signed collector card. Right, exactly. Now, bridging on to code updates, Stranger Things did finally get a code update Bringing it up to 1.0 Yeah, it's been a very busy month for Stern They've been working on a lot of games Six, I think, six different games All got code updates this month Including, well, even that, going back to Deadpool That was a game which had two updates And Black Knight Sword of Fury as well hadn't been updated since February, February 11th, in fact, and that got an update as well. Right, and then Elvira was one of the games being updated to version 1.01.
    46:00
    Yeah. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. The Avengers Infinity Quests. Right. That got two updates as well, the 5th and the 24th of November.
    46:11
    As you say, Stranger Things, up to version 1.0. So that... But it's worth saying, actually, that a lot of these, not all of them, and a lot of them are actually significant updates. They've added a lot of new things into it. I mean, things like Deadpool, for instance.
    46:27
    They've retrofitted a lot of the sort of system updates that they've been putting into newer games, things like the DJ mixer as well, and the track mode, start button, lighting choices, audio equaliser settings, and the competition play modes. They will be added into it, which is nice. They're going back to some of the earlier releases. but also changed it quite significantly by allowing mode stacking to a certain number of the modes we're on concurrently, which is new. And they've also added a ton, well, about 30, I counted them all, new high school table entries for various modes and features. Right, so basically everybody gets the idea that they're good at something. Yeah, not only that, they also added four new songs to the game soundtrack.
    47:13
    And you're going to tell us which songs they are. I could do but I probably won't mean anything to anyone so let's just be happy with the fact that they're still updating and adding more stuff to Dipple so that's very nice that was updated on the most recent update was the 12th of November so that's version 1.05 right so that's definitely worth doing as you said Elvira's House of Horrors we mentioned that about the Easter eggs they added more lamp effects sounds videos and speech for the came from space mode the rest of it sort of like tweaks the rules and bug fixes Cheers with Ninja Turtles 1.23 more support for Topper with lighting effects and a test for the eye mechanism they've got up there and they've added a new neutrino pizza party mode and done some of the usual sort of tweaking of scoring and award levels Black Knight mentioned that earlier, they've added the DJ a jukebox player into that as well, talking about adding it into older games, relatively to that is. But they've also allowed you to choose whether to listen to the release version of the Black Knight Sword of Fury soundtrack. Sword of Rage? Yeah, Sword of Rage.
    48:36
    An alternative soundtrack, or a retro mix of the original Black Knight soundtrack, as well as a few changes to the way the modes work and the usual bug fixes. Okay. So, yeah, I think there's been a lot going on. So kudos to Stern. They haven't been sitting back twiddling their thumbs with no new games other than the comic art pin being released. They've been working on new code updates, and they've brought a lot out in November. So thanks to them. Right. Okay. so yeah I think that's for free yeah no subscription required for that yeah well let's not bring any ideas to Stern about subscription models because before you know it yeah so anyway so moving next door almost um yeah Jersey Jack pinball yeah I'm gonna leave this one to you because I really have no idea what this is all about I've been following the Scorebit system for a while, sort of trying to work out exactly when would be a good time to write an in-depth article about it. For those who don't know, Scorebit is a way of, it's a system, really. It consists of a hardware board and a software API that allows you to get the scores out of your games, really, and also to interact with other aspects of the game system. the diagnostics and the bookkeeping, all that kind of stuff, which getting a score for players live while they're playing the game is a difficult thing to do with so many different systems.
    50:24
    And the way that they're programmed probably means that, I'm guessing here, that as a programmer, occasional programmer, I'd say that the score information is not stored in the same place in memory on every game. and also the feature details and awards probably aren't either. So what they tend to do is you can buy a board for a particular game which plugs in and interrogates the system, the CPU, the memory and works out what's going on with that game and can extract the scores and upload them to a central server which is run by Scorebit. So you can look on there, you can see how games are going, you can obviously do high school tables, leaderboards, tournaments, that kind of stuff. But also chatting to other people in real time. But it's an add-on system to your existing game. Well, until now, Jersey Jack Pinball had integrated Scorbit into their Guns N' Roses game. so that basically because Guns N' Roses has internet access it means that they can access the Scorbit API directly by Wi-Fi and you can get all that same functionality straight into the Scorbit system without having to buy or subscribe to anything. It's all part of the Guns N' Roses infrastructure so that's great news. Scorbit normally, as I say, they supply you with hardware but you also have to subscribe to their service in order to use all the functionality they give you.
    52:04
    Worth saying at the moment actually, with Scorbitron, if you buy the board, it's called Scorbitron, then you can get a one year's free subscription if you use the promotional code Jackpot2020, which normally costs $40 a year for one game. and Jersey Jack have integrated this into their system at no charge at all. There's no subscription charge and there's no additional fee to use it. It's already there. The latest version of the code includes it and it has set up menus for it as well so you can put in your account details and it'll connect to the Scorebit API and you become part of that infrastructure and then you can start challenging other people around the world. So this is something which I think TNA had added, didn't it, recently, I think? Yeah. Well, I have a TNA game now. I think Scott added that. So it's something which can be done in software and it just requires manufacturer support to do that. I don't think Stern intended to do that. I think they were asked about it and said that they're intending to do their own system. Right. I may be a pessimist here, but my scores are probably not interesting enough to share with the rest of the world, so I'm not really tempted by now. But, well, okay. By the way, on a football tournament as well, you know, because you can, rather than having to have somebody go around and write down the scores or enter them into a phone or a tablet or something like that, you can actually pull the data straight out of the machine. There's no chance of somebody typing it in the wrong, or getting the player number mixed up or anything like that. It's all the machine number, either. It's all there and readily available. So I think it's a great system. It's not cheap. As I say, you have to buy the board that's dedicated to that game and also an ongoing subscription. But that's the model that they've come up with, and I think it's something which, well, if it's integrated into the games from now on, zero cost, then it's great. It's a win-win. And Jersey Jack have also said that they intend to go back and when they add the Wi-Fi functionality to earlier games, the scorebit integration will be part of that too. Right. So if you have a Jersey Jack pinball game, then stand by and look out for the updates that include that. Yeah. so and hopefully it will still be free because you said it's a subscription model so it could be that you're sort of being looking at a subscription for a game that already existed and you didn't know you wanted to subscribe to something and now you're paying for it well maybe but the offer at the moment is it's free in perpetuity if they change that I don't know, you know, people might get upset and take legal recourse to assert their free access rights. But, you know, as in all these things, there's free and there's freeze. Someone's got to pay for it in the end. And you might have free access, but maybe there'll be, you know, a premium level. Well, there already is. There's a professional mode as well for Scorbit for operators, which allows them to look at fault logs and fault finding and earnings reports and that kind of stuff on their games. That's a higher subscription rate. So maybe that's an upsell that they can do to get owners, or operators at least, to upgrade their Scorbit membership. Right. Okay. So, other Jersey Jack pinball news Yes, I was contacted by Jack the other day And he said he had been contacted by my employer Which was obviously a bit of a worrying message to receive Yeah I can't think of other podcasts Exactly I don't want to go there, but yeah, you're thinking the same thing But fortunately this was good news because it meant that Jack was being lined up for an interview on the BBC News Channel. It was going out as part of their business section, which is early morning for those who don't know how markets open early and those thrusting market boys and girls are up and about at three o'clock in the morning getting ready for the opening of the markets. Well, this went out at just before 6 a.m. yesterday actually which is at the time of recording that would be the 1st of December so the 1st day of December it was doing an interview I was interested in what the interview was going to be about so I watched it and recorded it and put it on the Pinball News YouTube channel as well so you can watch it there if you go to Pinball News videos on YouTube then you can watch it there In the meantime, it's also been shared on Facebook and similar pages.
    57:31
    Yeah, that was the file that I sent Jack and also uploaded to YouTube, so it's the same one. But it's, yeah, I thought it was a very uplifting interview. It was, you know, not serious. It was about the growth in home sales during the pandemic, the way that the company's Guns N' Roses game, the collector edition, sold out in two hours, I think he said, and the way that people are still getting to enjoy pinball. And as Jack pointed out, I think, in the interview, it's pinball that they're producing now is nothing like the pinball that people may be familiar with from their childhood. the bells and chimes it's not your grandfather's pinball machine exactly, with all the RGB LEDs hundreds of RGB LEDs the big screen the wifi, the bluetooth connectivity and the in-depth rules and the amazing lighting effects on the playfield as well yeah and they showed lots and lots of clips of promotional video that JJP produced for the game, so it was pretty clear that this is a full action game and also because the involvement of Slash working with Eric on the design of it was mentioned by Jack as well.
    58:58
    I'm curious how Jack is looking back on that interview. Me too. Let's find out more about that by speaking to the man himself. And we've got Jack O'Leary on the line with us. Hello, Jack. Hello, Martin. How are you? Oh, wonderful to hear your voice again. That was just Gary. I just had to get rid of him. He snuck in here somehow. I don't know how he grabbed the phone. He's everywhere. But, yeah. I want to talk to them later, Jack. Let me talk to them later. All right, Gary, relax, okay? Just calm down. He'll be back. He'll have his chance. Yeah, so congratulations on your appearance on the TV. A very positive interview. Did you think it went well? On the BBC? Yeah. Oh, I loved it. It was so great. See what happens when you talk to us first. You are a guest on the Pinball Magazine and Pinball News podcast And next up BBC TV BBC what next What next I don know You know, who knows? But it was really good fun. I think all the way around, a lot of people got in touch with me and said they liked it very much, which is very kind and very humbling in a way. It was kind of funny for me because it was one o'clock in the morning. Yeah, that's right. It was live. No kidding. So I didn't know what questions they were going to ask. It's not their policy to disclose questions.
    60:28
    You know, I had hoped it would be a very positive type of interview, which it was. And it was very light, and the presenter was very nice. and it was just great to talk about pinball. I love it. So how did this interview come about, if you don't mind me asking? They got in touch with me. I just got an email out of the blue about a week before that asked if I'd be interested in being interviewed for this business show at 5.30 a.m. GMT, Greenwich Mean Time. and I said, hmm, let me go to my clock calculator here and say, what the heck, I guess that's about 1 o'clock in the morning before they got me. They did a test call about an hour before, and I wanted to sit in a certain spot with my game in the background, which I did. They liked that very much. I was in my office at home. The lighting they were happy with. They were happy with the sound. So the engineer that called me, he was just thrilled. He says, maybe you've done this before. I said, yeah, you know.
    61:46
    Yeah, it's really easy to spot somebody who's media savvy like you are. But of all the things you did talk about on that interview, were there any things which you would like them to have asked you about?
    62:00
    Or were you afraid to even be asked about certain aspects of things like, for instance, the tariff on pinballs and how that's affecting the business and the way that location has been impacted by the virus? Yeah, I don't think I can say afraid anymore. You know, I think it comes as a badge or a whip mark that comes when you start a pinball company almost 10 years ago that the fear factor has been beaten out of me if there was any of it at all. I think it was a stupidity factor or maybe a naive factor or just an entrepreneurial factor. But I was kind of ready for anything. I knew in the intro they were, it seemed to me in a subliminal way, they were leading towards saying pinball was like an old school kind of game. And then when she asked the question and I told her, it's not your grandfather's pinball machine, that these games are Bluetooth and Wi-Fi enabled and they have the RGB LEDs and screens and everything like that. You know, she got it, and I think she had some fun with that too. You know, the tax part about it, it's been interesting because we've had no cancellations from any distributor affected by the tariff that was enacted last month, and that was quite a surprise to everybody.
    63:27
    Pinball people, God bless them because they're a group that is unmatched, really. They want their games. It's been a bad year in a lot of ways. It's been a good year that we're almost through it and there's some vaccines and some hope coming. But they want their games and they realize and say, you know, the game cost X amount of money and I'm committed to it, and yeah, another 25% I'm not happy, but I'm going to pay it and get my game. You know, I want to enjoy it. I want to have fun with my family. I promised that we're going to have a good holiday, or I promised, you know, we're going to get this game. It's a great game, Guns N' Roses. And, you know, there was a little bit of pushback from some people trying to figure out could they change a date, could they change an invoice amount of money, Could they fly it into some wacky country and smuggle it across the line? You know, there's always people that are going to try to do something different. You know, we don't participate in any of that. Well, it's interesting that you mention that.
    64:40
    Obviously, here we had to deal with the Brexit, and apparently the current agreement with Europe, between Europe and England or Great Britain or whatever it's called, expires December 31st. In theory, the additional tax that's being added recently will, after January 1st, not be applicable to the UK. So there might be a construction where you could import games into the UK and from the UK to mainland Europe, which would actually avoid those 25% that's being added.
    65:31
    Yeah, I don't know about that, and we don't consult on taxes or tariffs or any of that kind of stuff.
    65:41
    You know, for the most part, Jen and I manage all the distributors, and, you know, I have a special relationship with foreign distributors because I visited pretty much all of them, and I know pretty much all of them for many years. I put our people on guard to say you know you may get phone calls from different countries where people are trying to buy directly from the US or they're trying to you know skirt this and so we redirected some of those people many of those calls and emails but we redirected them back to their home countries to buy games from there because we don't sell directly to any country outside of the United States. And certainly where we have distributors, if we get a lead, we send that lead in the U.S. to a local distributor that's closest to that lead before we would sell the game directly anyway.
    66:41
    You know what? It's a mess, Jonathan. That's what it is. It's 2020 and it's a mess. And maybe this thing will go away and maybe it won't go away. We don't know. Nobody knows. You know, that's the bottom line. And the whole Brexit thing, I read about it, I hear about it, we all see it on different business shows.
    67:04
    You know, it's been years that they're talking about this thing, and hopefully for the people in Great Britain that want it to happen, it happens. You know, that's all we can say. Yeah, we won't go into too many details about Brexit because a lot of it is still under negotiation. That's a whole other show, Mark. It is. It's a whole other series of shows, to be honest. But, yeah, one thing I did want to ask, though, was, having done the interview,
    67:33
    what, well, a couple of things, actually. First of all, on there, the presenter seemed impressed or surprised by the speed at which the games had sold out. Are you surprised at the success of Guns N' Roses? And also, well, let's just leave it for that for the moment. I've forgotten the question. I'll come back to it. But has Guns N' Roses' success taken you by surprise?
    67:58
    You know, I'd be lying if I said yes. It hasn't surprised me in a way because it's just such a great game. It's, to coin a phrase that's been used too many times, it's a game changer. It's just like Wizard of Oz coming out again. what Eric and Slash and the team have been able to do. And I was certainly part of it because I wanted to do this and Slash wanted to do it even though there was a game done many years ago. We believe that with today's passion and technology and time, energy and money that we spend on it, we can make something really great. And it's really nice to see the marketplace respond to that And, you know, so in a way I wasn't surprised.
    68:54
    You know, I'm happy that we did the 500 collector edition games. If we did 1,000, could they have sold out the same way? You know, a lot of people say yes. People say this and that. Some people want a little bit more exclusivity. The Ellie game, which I have, I don't have a CE. I gave up my CE. Yeah, that's a good customer.
    69:18
    I have an LE. The game's spectacular. Even the SE is a spectacular game. So I don't really know that I could be happier about a game. I mean, I think out of all the games we did, this one, because it has all of the content and it has everything I wish it would have, it really checked all the boxes for me. and I know if it does that for me, it's going to do that for a lot of other people.
    69:51
    Okay, and the feedback you've had from the interview, have people been in touch to congratulate you and say how impressed or hardly and obviously doing interviews or press appearances, I know, but has the feedback that you've received from this been good?
    70:10
    It's been very humbling. It's been very, very good. Everybody's been very kind. Everybody had, you know, somebody said I must have a picture of Dorian Gray on the wall because I don't seem to age. And, you know, they didn't realize it was 1 o'clock in the morning. They thought it was a different time of the day. And silly comments like how good I look or this and that, you know, it was kind of silly to me. but it was a lot of fun I was just doing what I do having fun with it, if you can't have fun in this industry building, I think I called the game, you know sometimes when I say something after I hear it out of my mouth, I'm kind of surprised I said it, I said this big box of fun behind me, you know I remember years ago when our games did nothing I called it a box of lights and that kind of picked up now it's a lot more than a box of lights It's really a box of fun right now. So I think it was well received, and it was better than I could have hoped for. I really appreciate it that we got an opportunity to do it. It was really nice. Well, there you have it. Yeah, thanks, Jack.
    71:26
    Jack Guarnieri, becoming a regular guest on our show. Yeah. And happy to say so that he is. Obviously we have other people Who would love to be a regular guest On our show but have difficulty Getting on it every time Yeah but we're going to do something about that Aren't we Yeah we are Not sure where we're going Are we diving into that right now Well let's just carry on And I'm sure we'll We'll bring him in at an appropriate point Right okay For those who are new to our podcast with story well now we have a regular guest wannabe guest I may say Gary Flower who is an author noted pinball historian indeed who's been trying to get on to our show but so far hasn't been that lucky but we expect him to call in later during the show so stay tuned for that as well in the meantime we are going to discuss what happened at American Pinball yeah well as you mentioned we've had Thanksgiving, Black Friday, Cyber Monday and all that stuff well American Pinball did a Black Friday promotion with a sale on parts and merchandise that's some good offers I'd say if you're after a Houdini screen but back glass you can pick one of those up for under $50 from the American pinball store. And then you have to add 25% for Europe and shipping. Well, I don't know if it's a pinball park at that point. It's just an artwork. It's probably a higher tariff on artworks. Oh. But, yeah, I'm sure you could get that classified as just generic artwork. It's an interesting question, actually. I don't know whether if you're buying bulbs, going back to the point you just mentioned, if you're buying LEDs, for instance, are they pinball LEDs or are they just generic LEDs? Well, you're right. LEDs you can also buy in Europe and displays as well. So I think it's becoming more of a problem if you need a new, I don't know, slingshot kicker or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, going back to the American pinball, They also had art blades for the interior cabinet artwork for Houdini, for $59.40. Plastic sets for $90. And Oktoberfest plastic sets are $105 as well, which is pretty good. I mean, it's a lot of money for a bit of plastic, but compared to what you normally pay for a full set of plastics for a modern game, I'd say $105 is not bad at all. And it might be worth, if you're interested in any of those things, or any more American Pinball merchandise, just heading over to the American-Pinball.com website, and seeing if their Black Friday sale is still going on. You never know. You might be able to pick up a bargain.
    74:38
    Yeah, they might be looking to get rid of some stuff. I don't know. So, yeah, who knows. But there was more. Last month, I think we already mentioned that American Bimble had been involved with the Hot Wheels Legends Tour, and that was some sort of a tournament for designs, where people could design their own Hot Wheels car, if I'm not mistaken. That's right. The final of that took place. Well, what can you tell us about that? Well, during that term, of which Snoop Dogg and Jay Leno were both taking part, they also revealed the winner of the Hot Wheels sweepstake that was run by American Pinball. That was basically you comment and enter for the partner of the sweepstake. There was no charge for it. But sadly, it was limited to America. So anybody in the US In North America In Canada Well you might have won Maybe your entry was discarded Along with mine For not being in America But the game was there At the Epic Final In Los Angeles And the winner was announced As Ricky Cale from Grand Junction In Colorado So congratulations to Ricky He wins a new Hot Wheels game That's a lovely prize to get And just wish the rest of us could have been in with a chance of that Right, okay So, and... Well, George Cougar also did a playthrough of the Hot Wheels game I'm not sure whether that was during the finals or earlier in the tournament It was a bit earlier, I think but it was a part of the same Hot Wheels Legends Tour event that we mentioned before. Yes.
    76:42
    And Jack Danger also did a gameplay and a Q&A session with members of the design team, which you can watch, if you missed, on his Deadflip channel on Twitch, and probably on YouTube as well.
    76:57
    Right, OK. That's all the news for American Pinball. I think so for November yeah for November Spooky Timber yeah that's set up to Wisconsin basically a few things about what's coming up but not really that much to say really they did announce they're going to be revamping the Fang Club which is their Fang Club you know like Sterling Cider and so on changes coming for that next year No indication of what they might be yet But if you're a member of that I'm sure you've got notification And if you were thinking of signing up It might be worth waiting to see exactly what it is They're going to be doing in 2021 Right And well you mentioned You bought TNA When that came out Yes Yeah several of them Potential for a version 2.0 that's to be released. I don't know if you know anything about what's going to be in 2.0.
    78:06
    Well, Charlie was actually a special guest on the super awesome Pinball show with Christopher Frenchy and Dr. Pin. And he mentioned that TNA 2.0 at some point will be coming and gameplay will be identical to the existing games, but there might be some cosmetic changes, and I'm not sure whether that means that we get new playfield art or that they are going to do something with cabinet art or maybe, what do you call it, colored side rails or stuff like that. The armor. Yeah. So, but he didn't specify when that would happen, and I didn't get the impression that it would be right after, when they finish the production of Rick and Morty. So it might be that they are,
    79:10
    that they could do a different game after Rick and Morty, and then at some point TNA 2.0 might actually happen. Maybe just floating the idea to see what the demand would be then. Yeah, probably. Well, if you're in the market for a new M-Box TNA, and you're in Europe, you might be in luck, because I still have one for sale. So, if you're interested in such a game, you can reach me at editor at pinball-magazine.com. Wow, and that was obviously imported before the 25% tariff. Tariff? Yeah, but I'd be happy to apply an extra 25%. Just bring it up to date. Yes, exactly. Perfect. Right. You're so generous. Well, Charlie's been busy.
    80:02
    He was also on a podcast called The Grail by Dean Del Rey. He doesn't bring a bill with me. No. So, apparently it's every week, Dean Del Rey profiles the world's best artisans and makers. Well, Charlie was on podcast number three of that series, the first two of which were all about the king of handmade guitars, who I'm sure you know is Grover Jackson. Oh, right, yeah. Yeah, so Charlie's number three. So, if you want to hear more from him, head over to, or search for The Grail by Dean Del Rey, D-E-L-R-A-Y, and to do that podcast so we can hear more from Charlie, talking presumably for a less pinball-orientated audience about his journey, really, from quitting his regular job and starting up Spooky Pinball and everything that's happened since. Right. Now, earlier on, Jack mentioned quite a few Rick and Morty games are popping up for sale.
    81:15
    What do you make of that? Well, it's kind of understandable. There's quite a lot of games popping up for sale in general. With a queue of eager buyers waiting for their games, it's understandable that people who've got them are looking to, well, considering whether or not they can make a quick buck on it by selling a low-play game to those people who are waiting.
    81:42
    But even so, as Jack was saying about the big growth in home sales, it's a good time for it to be a seller at the moment because the prices are way up. And if you're thinking of selling or making space in your line-up for the next game, now is a good time to do it with the prices where they are. Okay, so it's not an indication that people don't like the game, but it might just be that they are considering either, like, I want to get, for example, a new Guns N' Roses, so then, sorry, Rick and Morty has to go? Well, maybe. I would like to get some people's motivations for selling a game at any point.
    82:25
    There's always going to be some people who rushed in, bought the game, and obviously having not played it, because you never had the chance to. and they've played it and feel they've had enough. That's natural with any title, but I think in the most case, I think it's people looking at the market out there and thinking, I've got a very valuable asset here. Do I want to hang on to it and see that value diminish over the coming months as more and more are delivered and people can start going out and playing on location again? Or do I want to just sell it now and move on. Okay. Well, then let's move on to other companies.
    83:10
    Multimorphic. I couldn't find any news. No, I checked. It looks like they're just still carrying on doing what they're doing. Which appears to be building heists.
    83:23
    Yeah. Well, and the base cabinet, P3 systems. Yes. That as well. Yeah. Okay. Chicago Gaming. No, well, we're still waiting to hear about their next game in production, whether it's going to be their remake, which...
    83:42
    This is what I don't get. I thought it was a slam dunk to be Captain Scania, and people are now starting to float Theatre of Magic out there as well. Yeah, I think Christopher Frenchy already announced that it would not be Theatre of Magic, and he is doing some freelance work, I think, for Chicago Gaming. Yeah, for their original title, I guess.
    84:07
    But if you're in the market for a Theater of Magic game, an original one, I happen to have one for sale.
    84:16
    I just heard that it's a good time to sell games. It's a thing doing a thing here. Yeah, so if you're looking for a Theatre of Magic, and since there's not a remake coming out anytime soon, feel free to contact me at editor at pinball-magazine.com. Right, okay, very good. And, yeah, so moving on to Home Pin.
    84:45
    Yeah, no news there either, other than that they are busy manufacturing replacement parts. Yeah, yeah, I think that's what... Hang on. Is that your phone? Oh, I got a new one. You remember what happened last month? I do, yes. But you get the same ringtone. Yeah, no, yeah, I was able to save all that. And, no, that's, yeah. So, new phone.
    85:11
    It's all called off. Yeah, exactly. So, for those hearing the music in the background, This is indeed Cary Flower calling. Shall we get him on? Yeah, come on. Let's finally hear from Gary. I know he's got some exciting stuff for us. Okay. Hello, Gary. Hi, Cary Flower here. I wanted to go home. Don't worry. Hold on. Well, it seems to me your line is slightly distorted. You still there?
    85:46
    Gary, you're sounding very weird. Weirder than usual. Yeah, but... Oh, it's gone? It's not going to work. I'm very sorry, but it seems that,
    85:59
    although Gary sounded very excited to be on our show, it appears to be a technical difficulty, and I don't think it's going to work this time.
    86:10
    Oh, well. Next time. We're hoping to get him on for a Christmas special, but it looks like it's not going to happen. Anyway, New Year's resolution then, 2021. we'll make sure we get Gary on. Okay. That sounds like a plan. I think it was the same plan we had at the end of last year, but anyway.
    86:31
    Yeah, so moving on. Yeah, Haggis Pinball in Australia. They've been up to a few things as well. They've been doing some more promotions. Oh.
    86:45
    Black Friday, for them, meant $500 off the price of the fully loaded Celts game. which, you know, if you missed out on the previous offer, which was $1,000 off, which they were offering at the launch of the game, then, you know, $500 off is not a bad deal either. I think that's still running for a little while yet, into December, so check out their website. Yeah. I think it's pitbull.com. Now, so getting back to that 25% tariff, do you think that Hengist Bingle could be a company that would actually benefit from games in the US being more expensive, so it's cheaper to import them from Australia?
    87:34
    Potentially, although I have to say it does seem that shipping costs from Australia are pretty expensive. Yeah, but only 25% of... Well, I was checking it out. If you want to sell them to the US, for instance, I reckoned it would cost approximately $900 to send a Celts game by sea to the US, and $1,300 by air. Is Europe closer by than the US?
    88:04
    That's a good question. You would think that... You would think not. You would think the US would be closer. but that just depends which part of the US you're going to but even so it seemed like pretty high costs although if you can combine a number of orders and share some of the costs I'm sure that can come down but they're only making what 250 was it? 200 I think 200 of Haggis Spinball's Celt game so So if you want one of those, you probably need to get in, well, especially with the offer on at the moment of $500 off, get in there and get your order in. Right. Okay. So Dutch Pinball. Yeah. We had a scoop last month where we basically announced that Dutch Pinball would be moving to a larger facility. They officially announced that. and they also announced that they are looking for full-time and part-time assembly workers at their new facility. They even started advertising for that on social media and also locally, I believe.
    89:26
    So, yeah, they're obviously looking to increase the number of production employees to speed up the production of the Big Lebowski.
    89:44
    And they sent out a newsletter Currently at the old facility they were at a pace of four games a week And what they hope to do with increasing the staff of factory employees that they will increase the production to ten games a week within a couple of months. Right. So, yeah, understandable they're going to need more people. It was quite humorous to see that they specified in the advert that working from home is not an option. Right. And, well, luckily the new facility is large enough that they can social distance and still have everybody working there.
    90:34
    Yeah, right. Yeah, the new facility, I think it's five times as large as the previous facility. So that's quite an improvement, I'd say. Definitely. Yeah. Good news from Dutch people there. Yeah, absolutely. So hopefully they will find the right people to continue building games and improve the speed of production. Yeah. So moving on. no news from Circus Maximus about their Kingpin game or the All-Python Spinball Service but Jimmy Libham who works with the team there he's launched a new product which is called the Pin Vision which is a replacement backboard for the Twilight Zone game to start with at least which basically takes the wooden panel that's at the back and replaces it with an LCD panel, which displays game-coordinated animations, which match the gameplay and the modes that you start and the scores. Okay, that's very cool. It is very cool. Some of the animations are all very bright, and it has a sort of twinkling star field effect when there's nothing else happening. But it did seem very responsive to gameplay and didn't seem to have much in the way of a lag, which you might expect some systems to have as they had to sort of call up the appropriate video clip or wait for the signal to get through the system. No, this has been very responsive and eye-catching. Okay.
    92:21
    I know a few sort of caveats about some of the animations not being to my particular taste, but that's always the way with any new artwork, isn't it?
    92:32
    Not that everything's going to hit the mark 100% for everybody. Obviously Jimmy Is a very talented programmer I'm not sure whether he's a good artist Well I don't know whether he did All of it himself He got other people in to do the artwork But some of it was very impressive Like Clock Chaos The spiral Effect they had there animating Which looked amazing So yeah go and check it out On Searchable Pin Vision And Twilight Zone I found it actually quite hard to find where I could buy it, in fact first of all I found it quite hard to find out what it actually was I saw a post of his on Facebook showing all these systems bagged up ready to go but no indication of what they were or where you could buy them but a bit of hunting around the web and yeah found thousands of videos of it in action and yeah, impressive work so maybe they'll come out for other games as well It's worth pointing out that it's not a display which does the entire width of the back panel, because the back left-hand side is all covered by the gumball machine and the power mini playfield, so you wouldn't see anything that was there anyway. So it's all towards the centre and the right side, where you can actually see it. So, yeah, very nice. Good work. Okay, good. Well, then there's probably some other news as well. Let's start off with the Pinball Brothers, who, if you have a good memory, Pinball Brothers was basically the parent company, I'd say, of Highway Pinball, or at least the company that funded Highway Pinball, who have brought us Alien and Full Throttle. when Alien, well, only a handful of games were actually made before the company sort of went, well, under.
    94:33
    But the Pitbull Brothers created a Facebook account in October, and since then they have been teasing a remake of Alien. Yeah, I've been sort of posting over and over little snippets or little hints and clues about Alien Which I've just sort of been watching these and thinking Well, for goodness sake, get on and tell us what you're doing We know you're doing Alien, but show us Rather than just show us a little bit of plastic here or a little bit of artwork there Just tell us what you're doing, we know We know who you are, we know what you're making So, out with it But apparently they're going to announce mid-December, or mid-this month then, exactly what they are doing or what they have done and when it will be available. Apparently it's going to be Alien, a remake of, in a standard-sized cabinet, I think, rather than being a widebody. No, no, no. Oh, it's still going to be a widebody. Still going to be a widebody. At least that's what I got from listening to Kaneda's podcast last night, so December 1st, if you want to look that up, because he had a designer of the game, Dave Sanders, on.
    96:01
    And Dave commented on basically the snippets that have been shared, but those include segments from, I wouldn't say schematics, but... Playfield drawings. Yeah, playfield drawings and that kind of stuff. And he said the game is definitely still a wide body, but from the placing of certain elements, and especially a coil that was apparently removed in earlier, or the existing models of Alien, but was intended to be there. It sounds like the magnet up left. Yes, that's actually back into the drawings, And the reason the magnet was removed was there was no space to place the magnet because the highway pinball cabinets have the play suit resting on two rails on the side of the cabinet.
    97:15
    Where in the new version it appears to be that those rails are not present, which could indicate that we might see a different cabinet being used, or basically it could be that we might see Alien in a white-body Ballywilliams cabinet. Right, okay. One of the things I did notice from there, though it looks like they've taken out the LCD from the playfield and put it into a back box type display like Stern have, with a display panel with speakers either side and a smaller LCD in the middle. Right. Which, to my mind, would be a bit of a shame, because there seems to be plenty of space on the playfield for it. It would obviously make it cheaper, because they've then taken out the big LCD display from the back box as well. Right. Didn't Alien have two LCD displays on the playfield? It did. Well, yes, it had the airlock one, which was a small one, but basically the main display was both in the back box and on the playfield, and I think on that game a lot of people actually used the one that was on the playfield because it was always more visible than having to look up,
    98:39
    which was always Andrew's contention in the first place, but he ended up feeling he had to put a Batbox display in as well, just because people demanded it, even if they didn't look at it that much. But it's obviously better for spectators as well, that they can see what's going on in the game with the displays and the Batbox. Right, okay. So, if you want to hear more about that Alien possible remake, check out Canada's Pinball Podcast of December 1st. And look out for another announcement coming up in a couple of weeks as well. Right, okay. And, well, it will be interesting to see who will be manufacturing that game, because if it's manufactured in Europe, that might actually benefit European buyers. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And there's a little downside for American buyers, because there's no tariff going the other way. So, apart from the shipping costs, if you get it over to the US, and the relative strength of the US dollar to whatever currency it's going to be priced in,
    99:47
    it sounds like a good idea. I think if you have a look at, is it freeplay.se, the site where you can buy all the alien plastics parts and sculpts and everything, then that's all priced in euros at the moment, even though I think it's a Swedish website, so it's not in Swedish kroners. So if they make Alien there, it's probably going to be priced in euros as well, but I guess it would be in dollars, it would be available at a dollar price too. Right, okay. So now, from Alien, it's a, well, if you remember, I think there was a limited edition back glass which was drawn by an artist named Brian Allen, who since then has actually done quite a few other back glasses for pinball machines mostly based on medieval madness and his latest addition is a whitewater translight which is loosely based on the original John Yaucey back glass but with more characters added in reference to other Bellini-Williams games, such as No Good Govers, Fishtails, Creatures from the Black Lagoon, Dr. Dude.
    101:13
    And that's available on his website, which is flylanddesigns.com. Yeah. Yeah, I have to say I was pleased with how the argument looked, but I was a little bit disappointed that he's referencing a lot of games that Dennis Nordman and Greg Ferris, who are usually teaming together when they were at Williams, not all the time, but quite often, And yes, Doctor Dude is in there, but to me it made more sense to put, for example, Greg Freres or Dennis Nordman in the raft on the back class instead of a character from a game that they had no involvement in. Yeah, it's a bit weird. I think there's a lot packed into this and sometimes perhaps too much less is more perhaps I don't know as I said before everyone has their own individual likes and dislikes it was also interesting that unlike the original it actually got the name of the game on it the original Whitewater Back Translight didn't need it because they had the topper with the waterfall on Phil Harris Yeah, so this is If you're not Putting it in a game, you're just buying it to frame Then This one will have the name of the game on it Which is nicely done So I should say It's available, as you said, from flythanddesign.com $120 was the price What? Yeah, well it's a Bespoke Piece of art Speaking of which, you can also get inner cabinet art You know, the art blades that we were talking about before Brian's done some of those for the game too So if you really want to modify your game And really make it look packed and fully arted Then you can buy the inner blades and the new Translight Right, okay Now, speaking of upgrading your game, so to speak, new game ROMs have been available for several Williams and Belly games, and these have been made by Søren from Denmark. He runs a website called dotsandloopspinball.com, and he has been basically upgrading software ROMs for elder games, keeping the original software sort of intact, but balancing out score features a little bit more and all that. And it's all under license from Planetary Pimble. who are also authorized distributors for... Yeah, well, Planetary Pimble sell it, and they have their distributors as well around the world. You get it from them, too.
    104:43
    I know Soren's been working with people like Josh Sharp to identify what are known problems in some of these games and things which make them unsuitable for tournament play and things which are not random awards or unbalanced scoring.
    105:01
    And addressed some of those in the updates he's got. So I've tried to think of, oh yes, like there's a new version of Junkyard out, I think, where it stops you just getting the super skill shot and shooting into the sewer over and over and over and over and getting a huge score. I think it limits how many times you can do that before the feature ends.
    105:29
    And, yes, I think things like Red and Tej Roadshow, for instance, you know, when you start that game, you're limited to either New York or Miami on the West Coast. Yeah, and then you travel to the West Coast. Yeah, now you can pick, let's say you can pick any city, but you can pick from a range of cities to start, and as your next ones, you don't need to do them in order, travelling from east to west. There are some which are restricted, I think, or only available after a certain number of other cities, like the trading post one. Right. That wouldn't make a lot of sense doing that straight away when you haven't collected anything. Right. So the game is a little bit more randomised. Yeah, or more open I suppose Less restrictive in that way And the games that are available At the moment At the start of December Creature from the Black Lagoon, Junkyard, Radical Red and Ted's Roadshow Xenon Star Trek The Bally one, Space Invaders Silver Ball Mania Strikes and Spares And Rolling Stones, also the Bally one So they're not all new Dot Matrix games There's quite a few Seven segment display games There as well Right So and Well I mentioned Game ROMs Because If you're new to Pinball And you're only used to Modern Games Like the Spike 2 games On Stern Or Jersey Jack games Those games Can easily be Updated With a USB Well that's not the case on these other machines where you actually have to replace the physical ROMs, which are in the back box. And I'm sure there is an instruction guide how to do that if you buy these ROMs. But basically you're looking at a physical hardware that you're actually buying to implement this new software. Yes, at the moment I don't think there's any option to buy the software without actually buying a physical ROM, eProm, for it. For those people who can burn their own or offer a burning service, I don't think that's available. You do need to buy the ROM. But they're cheap, like $15 or $20, I think. I think they're $15 for a single one and $20 for those games where you have to upgrade two. So it's peanuts, really. And certainly will bring all those games much more into tournament play than they could have been before. So that's good. And there are other tweaks as well, not just tournament things, but scoring balances.
    108:29
    Oh, they'll be coming. Well, I think you'll score a system for your game, and you can do online tournaments. Right. Okay. Okay, then some very, I'd say rather disturbing news, especially if you're a tournament player, regarding the replay foundation and the consequences for replay effects.
    108:57
    Do you have more details? Yeah, so the Replay Foundation was basically set up to oversee an umbrella organisation for PAPA. That's the brand that they use to help promote pinball and to host tournaments and also to make charity donations and, of course, the very popular tutorial videos that are available on the PAPA site, on PAPA.org. But the Repay Foundation, I should say, put out an announcement saying that they are cancelling all further RepayFX tournaments, shows and all other events that they were going to organise for the foreseeable future. And not only that, but they are selling off their stock of inventory, which in this case means the hundreds and hundreds of pinball machines and video games that they have, which people see set up every year at the Replay FX show, along with various other games. Right. So it looks like that show is gone and isn't going to be coming back, or at least not in that form and not organised by the Replay Foundation, unfortunately. Yeah, that is a pity, because for those not aware, Replay FX, the tournament held there, is the biggest tournament in the world, I believe, with a thousand participants, and it usually sold out within less than two minutes, I think. It's incredible, isn't it? Yeah, and it was definitely on my list of events to attend.
    110:44
    Too bad that won't happen now. I never made it to Repair FX. I went to Papa a couple of times back when it was in the old building.
    110:56
    But, yeah, as you say, it's got to be on everybody's bucket list to go there. And certainly those who have been can't stop raving about what an amazing event and so well organized and such incredible machines to play. and it is the world championship and was the world championship so we still have the IFPA championship of course as well yeah but that's on a much smaller scale it is yeah but that's going to be the world champion from now on whoever wins that previously there was always the somebody would win the replay affects the Pinberg event and they'd be that world champion and they'd be the IFPA world champion but now there's just going to be the one but of course at the moment we don't have any of them because there are no tournaments taking place or no IFPA sanctions tournaments anyway and so we have that to look forward to in 2021 and yeah the the IFPA world championship I believe has now been being pushed back to November of 2021. I think that's correct.
    112:13
    It was going to be this year, of course, and the IFPA 17, as it is, will not be taking place until the 11th to the 14th of November 2021.
    112:27
    So hopefully by then, everything will be back to some semblance of normality. But, yes, a real shame about replay effects. I don't know the reasons why, and it seems a little odd that just because a couple of shows need to be cancelled that they have to set off all their inventory and basically cancel everything forever. Yeah. But they know the finances and what the implications of not holding shows are, and that's obviously had a big impact on their ability to move forward in the way that they have in the past. Do we know anything about the reasoning why they basically are selling off everything? No, no.
    113:15
    Obviously, with cancelling shows and people who are paid up front for their registrations for the 2020 show and I don't think they'd be able to do the 2021 show either. They have to then refund all that money.
    113:33
    So that's obviously going to incur some debt and they have to store all these machines somewhere and if they can't use them and maintain them, then what's the future really? How far ahead do they want to look? Do they want to look at what's going to happen in 2022 and try and get things geared up for that. They decided that, given the finances as they are, they needed to do what they did. Yes. It is interesting to note that the Replay Foundation itself will remain in existence. Absolutely. Yes, but they will, for the foreseeable future, keep it to just an online presence. Yes, all the stuff that's on the PAPA website is staying there. And there's quite a lot on there, so that's good. And, you know, who knows, maybe they'll be in a position to be more active and develop more people, outlets, be they shows or websites or other online resources in the coming months and years. Right. Well, for now, I'd say it's a big loss, especially, well, like I said, for tournament players.
    114:54
    And, of course, well, I've never been to replay effects either. I still hope they will be able to come back in some shape or form. Yeah. Also, the whole pandemic thing is over, which is hopefully soon, but then again, okay. It's going to be hard if they've sold all the inventory, but well they can always buy that back well they can always yeah always try and round up local collectors to do something similar so it's not necessarily the end of the line but as you say they are continuing as a most well entirely online presence at the moment right okay oh well we wish Kevin and the people that he's working with all the best and hopefully we'll see him in the future again organizing new events. Yeah. So, and then, well, some sort of, I suppose, if you want to share that, some in-house news or news related to our Pinball News and Pinball Magazine pincast.
    116:07
    Yes. I had an email from the guys at podstatus.com with good news, they said. Almost like Futurama, isn't it? Good news, everybody. Yes, apparently our podcast, this podcast you're listening to now, is number one podcast in the category of games in Israel. Okay, well. Yeah, we'll start somewhere. Yeah. We're also number two podcast in the category of leisure, also in Israel. Hmm.
    116:41
    But number eight in games in the Netherlands. Well, I'd be used to them, so that explains a lot. Yeah, of course. I'm surprised it's as low as 8, to be honest. Need to push it a bit harder. Number 50 in the category of games in Norway, and number 97 in the category of leisure in the Netherlands. Yeah, that's a category no one looks in. Well, we know what the Netherlands is like for leisure, so I think it's quite good to do 97 there. I'm sure there are more than 96 other more interesting things to do with your leisure time. Yeah, right. It's a podcast. So basically we did two years of podcasts, and I never even bothered to look at the numbers, and we switched to Anchor. That's the name I was looking for. And what was it, something we care?
    117:38
    No, I thought it was humorous, really. that somebody thought it was sufficiently interesting to send us this information. But there you go. I just sort of throw it in as a laugh. So we have to push up from number 97 in leisure in the Netherlands and get into the 80s. Well, we have to push up a lot more because in all the other countries we're not even listed, so... Well, that's not to say we're not high in the rankings. There are probably too many rankings to give us all of them. Anyway, so just a bit of useless trivia there that we don't care about, and I'm sure you don't either. Right. Well, that seems like a good way to round off this pincast. Yes. Since this is, well, we're recording this December 2nd, and it should not be up much later after. So it's December. that means I'm going to wish you happy holidays merry Christmas and the best wishes for 2021 and good health I don't think we'll be recording a bonus episode but then again you never know you know if something really exciting happens we'll be there but in case we don't here's my holiday wishes for you and I'm sure Mark has his own as well Absolutely, have a safe, peaceful And above all Enjoyable Christmas, holiday New Year season And celebrate Safely And we look forward to being back with you In January, the start of 2021 To look back at all the events That happened in this month Of December 2020 So until then, from myself And from Jonathan We wish you a Have a wonderful time and take care. We'll see you next year. Okay, thanks. Bye-bye.