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The Pinball Show Ep 39: Big Changes & Big Pinball Talk

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 16m·analyzed·Nov 23, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Scheduling changes, Raza gameplay analysis, and industry news covering Deep Root, Stern, JJP, and American Pinball.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 39 features hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discussing major scheduling changes, personal updates (including Zach's PlayStation 5 purchase and new machine acquisitions), and extensive coverage of Deep Root's Raza reveal stream. Industry correspondents report on Deep Root's website changes and San Antonio coffee shop reveal, Stern's Star Wars Comic Art home pin announcement, Jersey Jack's Scorebit partnership, American Pinball's Hot Wheels tour success, and code updates. The episode includes detailed analysis of Raza's gameplay features, innovation with the pin bar interface, and skepticism about Deep Root's marketing timing.

Key Claims

  • Zach Minney replaced his Jurassic Park pinball with a Jurassic Park Premium model

    high confidence · Direct statement by Zach; personal machine update

  • Zach acquired a PlayStation 5 from a scalper in a police parking lot meeting

    high confidence · Zach's direct account of the transaction

  • Deep Root's Raza stream peaked at approximately 400 simultaneous viewers

    high confidence · Chris Chandler correspondent report citing viewer numbers

  • Stern announced Star Wars Comic Art Pin as a home edition reskin of the original home machine

    high confidence · Craig correspondent report on official Stern announcement

  • Jersey Jack is partnering with Scorebit to integrate their platform into all Wi-Fi-enabled JJP machines for free

    high confidence · Ken Redberg JJP correspondent report

  • Deep Root noted supply chain issues affecting production ramp-up of 3-4 months once production begins

    high confidence · Robert Mueller statement during stream, reported by Dennis and Zach

  • Snoop Dogg called the American Pinball Hot Wheels machine 'dope'

    high confidence · Kaz correspondent report on Hot Wheels Legends Tour

  • The Pinball Show is shifting to an every-other-week schedule with alternating hosts to reduce Zach's workload

    high confidence · Direct discussion between Zach and Dennis about scheduling changes

  • Raza features a 'shot log' that records every shot taken in a game for cloud storage and long-term analysis

    high confidence · Dennis describing Robert Mueller's explanation of the shot log feature

  • Deep Root's Raza pricing and ordering process will be formally announced within the next 1-2 weeks

    medium confidence · Robert Mueller statement during stream; subject to typical delays

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm struggling keeping up with the pace.”

    Zach Minney @ ~11:30 — Reveals burnout and justification for scheduling changes to every-other-week format

  • “You're tired too. Getting crispy, starting to hate a lot of pinball people within the industry.”

    Zach Minney @ ~13:00 — Indicates industry burnout and fatigue with community dynamics

  • “It peaked out in the neighborhood of almost 400 simultaneous folks watching the stream.”

    Chris Chandler (correspondent) @ ~23:00 — Quantifies viewer interest in Raza reveal; significant engagement metric

  • “They did talk about supply chain issues that have come up, noted by Robert Mueller. He claimed that all the other manufacturers are running into the same thing.”

    Zach Minney @ ~49:00 — Contextualizes Deep Root delays within broader industry supply chain constraints

  • “Robert and the crew at Deep Root is fighting something else, though. It's not just about the sale of the game. They are having to fight the narrative and part of their own creation that this is a company that's dealing in vaporware.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~57:00 — Identifies Deep Root's core business problem: reputation damage from delays and vaporware perception

  • “If you're trying to – it didn't feel like they're trying to sell this thing to me well.”

    Zach Minney @ ~62:00 — Critiques Deep Root's marketing approach for the stream reveal

  • “Does this undo that damage? I think it does, in part. It does help. It did change that narrative, thankfully, for Deep Root.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~66:00 — Acknowledges Raza stream as partial recovery from Deep Six controversy

  • “The ramp actually works. That was another positive for me, positive takeaway.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~71:00 — Highlights mechanical functionality as a relief point after Deep Root's previous reliability concerns

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyRaza (Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland)gameRobert MuellerpersonStern PinballcompanyStar Wars Comic Art PingameJersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball integrating Scorebit platform for free into all Wi-Fi-enabled machines; signals JJP commitment to connected gaming infrastructure and operator/collector value-add

    high · Ken Redberg: 'Jersey Jack is partnering with Scorbit to integrate Scorbit into all of their Wi-Fi-enabled machines. And the best part is they're doing it for free.'

  • ?

    community_signal: The Pinball Show establishing correspondent system for industry news coverage; TPN network demonstrating infrastructure for distributed news gathering and editorial voice

    high · Multiple correspondent segments (Chris Chandler, Craig Bobby, Ken Redberg, Kaz) providing specialized coverage of manufacturer developments

  • ?

    community_signal: Fliptronic streaming team rapidly mobilized for last-minute exclusive Raza reveal; demonstrates agility and community integration within TPN ecosystem

    high · Deep Root announced stream location mid-week; Fliptronic prepared equipment and executed with 5 cameras and live gameplay within days

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pin Bar identified as innovative standout feature on Raza; interactive menu system and cabinet lighting creating positive differentiation in design conversation

    high · Dennis: 'And, fuck, Dennis, the pin bar was cool' and 'I thought it looked clean. I liked the menu system...that was beautiful'

  • $

    market_signal: Deep Root chose livestream reveal over polished pre-recorded video (like GNR approach); hosts critique this as suboptimal for sales impulse but logical for narrative damage control

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.230

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. We are back with the pinball show episode 39 with your host myself, Zach mini and Dennis Creasel from the eclectic gamers podcast. Mr. Creasel. How are you this week? I am. Okay. Zach, what is sarcasm?
0:51
I was going to bring, you're going to bring that up this week. Uh, maybe need a refresher course for myself and listeners on sarcasm or hyperbole, satire. Sometimes people don't interpret me when I'm making a joke, Dennis. I don't know what to make of it, but my apologies to anyone out there who doesn't sense sometimes my sarcasm or my clear jokes to me, but don't come across as jokes to other people.
1:19
Maybe I just preface it by, Stern DMDs are cool. I like them. Are you sure that you will allow your silk gloves to touch such an ancient relic. That's right. Anti-flexing here. No seal flex. We are... So, yeah, that's a good point. I was just going to bring that up at the beginning of the show. Here's what I was going to do this show, Dennis. A lot of people laugh and roll their eyes with me and some of my quote-unquote jokes and demeanor on this show. Some people are put off by it, my co-host being one of them. So I thought this show would be fun, this episode, as a dedication to you because we have some upcoming news that pertains to you and I. So I thought, you know what? Why don't we do a show that Dennis Creasel would appreciate? And that is, Dennis, no singing, no goats, no yelling, no jokes at your expense or at my expense, hopefully, and no market trends. Ooh, a fun show. This will be nice. just reporting the facts. No contrarian takes.

  • “And, fuck, Dennis, the pin bar was cool. In what way? It just visually looked cool.”

    Zach Minney / Dennis Creasel @ ~78:00 — Pin bar identified as standout innovative feature of Raza; major visual/functional appeal

  • “I think that if I was in, and you know, hindsight here, but if I was in his position, the principal, Robert Mueller, I don't know if I show this now. Marketing-wise, you best sell products by the immediate response of them.”

    Zach Minney @ ~56:00 — Strategic critique of Deep Root's decision to stream rather than release polished reveal video like GNR

    • Scorebit
    product
    American Pinballcompany
    Hot Wheels Pinballgame
    Fliptroniccompany/stream
    Pinball Network / TPNorganization
    Chris Chandlerperson
    Craig Bobbyperson
    Ken Redbergperson
    Kaz / Brian Kosnerperson
    What's Brewinglocation
    Steve Bowdenperson
    Pin Barproduct

    high · Zach: 'if you're trying to – it didn't feel like they're trying to sell this thing to me well' and Dennis comparing unfavorably to GNR's presentation strategy

  • ?

    community_signal: The Pinball Show format evolving toward guest-host rotation model; Zach planning to interview industry figures and maintain show cadence with rotating co-hosts

    medium · Zach: 'next week we come on strong with somebody...like the old Twip days, Twip podcast days, where I'm going to have somebody every other week...some big names coming up'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zach Minney experiencing documented burnout from podcast/content workload; reducing frequency to every-other-week format signals capacity limits in pinball media landscape

    high · Zach: 'I'm struggling keeping up with the pace' and 'Getting crispy, starting to hate a lot of pinball people within the industry'

  • ?

    announcement: Stern officially announced Star Wars Comic Art Pin as home edition reskin with comic art styling; positioned as affordable alternative to commercial Pro/Premium versions

    high · Craig correspondent report: 'Stern officially announced the availability of the Star Wars Comic Art Pin, a new stylish, affordable, and fun pinball machine'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern code team taking Thanksgiving break; noted as 'rare no-code week' suggesting typical cadence of regular updates, though potential for holiday-season surprise announcement remains

    medium · Craig correspondent: 'a rare no-code week, as the Stern programmers take a much-needed week off...could there still be time for a holiday miracle for one last title before the end of the year?'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Deep Root's Raza stream generated positive community response, reversing some vaporware narrative damage; more supportive than negative Pinside comments post-stream

    high · Dennis: 'before we started recording i did go to pin side and i checked out the deep root thread and i actually post stream now see more supportive comments than negative comments about the pin bar'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Deep Root citing industry-wide supply chain constraints affecting all manufacturers; 3-4 month production ramp-up period noted once manufacturing begins

    high · Zach citing Robert Mueller: 'supply chain issues that have come up...all the other manufacturers are running into the same thing...3 to four months, just to kind of get this production ramped up'

    • 2:30
    I will merely be a nice conduit of communication and conversation about pinball. It has been my dream. I have longed for this. Well, we'll try it on. It already feels bad, but we'll try it. It's like the stiff shirt that you put on without washing. That's kind of what it feels like. But we'll try it. You know what happened to me this week? No, I have no idea. Last week, listeners, you guys know that I sold my, unwillingly, I didn't want to, but I did, my Jurassic Park. It could have been a limited edition model. Maybe it was premium. Maybe it was a pro. That's not important, Dennis. It was merely a Jurassic Park pinball machine. And out with that, but in with another machine. Oh. I filled the spot. Is it a Stern? It is a stern. Is an LCD stern? It is an LCD stern. Whenever you hit the truck enough, it goes.
    3:30
    Another Jurassic Park. Yeah, so I replaced it with a Jurassic Park Premium. My muscles are atrophying right now. Lack of flex. Jurassic Park Premium.
    3:42
    Just don't ask if I'm going to go over and above on it. I won't. Okay. So Jurassic Park Premium is in there. and I believe I have one more hole in my Stern lineup that's lined up nice for me and the aesthetics, and I believe that will be a premium Star Wars comic. Oh, that's right. You are a big fan of the Hyperloop. Yeah. I thought you already owned that, actually, but I lose track. I've owned the regular premium.
    4:12
    Oh, this would be comic art, yeah. Yeah, so I'm wanting the comic art and dress it up a little bit. So that will probably go into the lineup until the next Stern comes out, and then who knows, might replace one. But that and something else came in. I finally got my hands on a PlayStation 5. Oh, did Walmart finally come through for you? They didn't. I, for days, did the whole refreshing thing when they were dropping them in Target and GameStop and Amazon and where else? Best Buy. Yeah, I was tired of it. So I broke down and paid a scalper. I know. don't tell reddit they will not approve it was sad too as i sat in the parking lot of this seemingly shady deal i thought of you i was like i felt like i was making my father uh the disapprove of me it was and it was scary i thought i was gonna get jacked again oh from your cell phone days yes um so we met in the police parking lot police department parking lot and I made the individual go through, open the box. I wanted to see it all. Still could have been a brick, but it worked. And I've been playing Miles Morales Spider-Man last night for a couple hours. Oh, so it sounds like you were liking it if you stuck with it that long. I did. A lot has changed since 10 years ago when I was last gaming. I'm older and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And there's a lot of rules and things to remember. It made me appreciate pinball more, to be honest. Yeah, it's true. We're usually not much beyond three buttons in pinball. I know. We start crying when the action button is utilized. Yes. Why is the magna save on the lockdown bar?
    5:57
    Yeah, this is a whole other world, but I'll report back in the following weeks about my experience with it, because thus far it's been very dynamic, and you'll learn what I like to play in consoles, because we got a lot of positive feedback about some of the console talk. Yes, I was surprised actually Yeah, if you want the expert, if you want the deep stuff That's where EGP is going to shine But it's kind of fun just to discuss Getting into video games again with my ignorance So it's fun And we've got some changes to the pinball show I was going to do a cha-cha But that would imply a song And we won't be doing that Well, I thought it would be fun You don't like the singing thing Some people hate it, some people love it There's one guy on pin side really loved it Shout out to that guy. Love you. I want to make a compromise when it comes to the singing thing.
    6:47
    Oh, dear. Yeah, I'm going to call this the Great Pinball Podcast Compromise. A singing band is tough.
    6:55
    Is it? Because I have a lot of joy. I have a lot of love yearning inside me, burning through. But you could keep that all bottled up, like emotions. You know how you're supposed to. I want to respect my co-host and his hatred for my singing. But I also want to be true to myself. So the compromise I thought was, why don't we do this? Why don't we, instead of me just being able to start song at any point in time to annoy you, I'm going to put it on somebody else. I'm pitching this to you, Dennis, and for the listeners as witnesses. I'm going to stop singing altogether. I'm done. I will not sing another song impromptu when I feel that it is necessary. But the compromise here is if any TPN streamer or podcaster or YouTube, anybody within the family of TPN, if on their content or on associated content that they appear on mention any song, then it is fair game to sing that song the following week if necessary on the pinball show so if they bring up a song it's fair game it's up to them all they have to do is not mention any songs I'm not a huge fan of this compromise no it's too easy alright here In the spirit of compromise, I will counter-offer on this. Okay. Your criteria is okay. Drop streamers. It's too easy for the chat to bait. Nope. There are too many in TPN, and it's too easy to bait them. You could go into the chat and bait them into saying the name of a song. You don't have that influence on the YouTube and podcast side, so I will say only the YouTube and podcast TPNers. and you can only do the song one time in the episode. I can only... Only one song and only one time in the episode. You can't... If there were five songs, you pick one and it can only be done once. You can't keep dropping it back in. How... Okay. But otherwise, yes, I will consent. My counter would be if you're taking away all my streamers, that's a lot. That is a lot there that I'm giving up. Then I would pledge that I'm agreeable to that. But one time, I can sing. If I want to drop that song, no singing, drop it as a background to an outro or something, then I will agree to that.
    9:40
    I will agree as long as you have obtained the right to use the song. Sorry, DMCA, we can't risk it. There's going to be some changes regardless. Let's talk about some of the scheduling changes because I have a feeling that might change all of this. Oh, how exciting. Yes. You have been exceedingly slammed in life right now. You've been super busy with work, with pinball, with just everything. Well, you know, people do often say I'm the busiest man in pinball. I wouldn't refute that. No one's ever said that, though, Zach. Yeah, but I know you as a friend. You're damn busy. So with that, we need to change up the scheduling a little bit. Initially, whenever we started the Pinball Network, the Pinball Show, the idea was that you do every other week and we alternate between a Greg Bone, right? Yeah, that was the original plan. But we have discussed this and we both think it would be great if we were able to go back to that so that you could at least breathe. Is that fair? Yeah, this was my request. I'm struggling keeping up with the pace. understandably. So I think starting this week, we're going to go back to that you on EGP every other week and the alternating weeks you on the pinball show. Yeah. So what the hell am I supposed to do every other week? I guess this show could become, as Jesse J would say, Fortnite-ly. No. Yeah, we're not. Hey, you could get that Fortnite for your PlayStation. No, God, no. I still don't understand that game. No, I think we do this. And next week might be different because I'm taking a vacation. Holiday, yeah. I need a break. I'm getting crispy. You're tired too. Getting crispy, starting to hate a lot of pinball people within the industry. We call it burnout. Yeah, I think. No, it's hard. I get burned out. But I stay to the level of what I'm doing in pinball. I kind of stay burnout. I'm always the grilled cheese that's a little bit crispier. I'm fine with that. But no, I just, here lately, just pinball stuff. So it's gotten to the point where the pinball people and the hobbyists and the enthusiasts are beautiful. They're wonderful. Things a little bit deeper.
    12:05
    So maybe next week I take a break, and then we'll follow up. But maybe next week we come on strong with somebody. But it's going to be like the old Twip days, Twip podcast days, where I'm going to have somebody every other week. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, so we'll do that. But we've got some big names coming up, some big people joining the show. Zach's already reached out to a few, but if you are interested in guest hosting, you can always email thepinballnetwork at gmail.com to express such interest. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, that would be a big help. And I will say, I'm going to preface this with, it's not going to be easy co-hosting with me. I'm not going to be fake. I'm going to be real. and some people I have on, I might do a little mini interview kind of thing.
    12:52
    Because, I don't know, I've never done interviews. I'll dabble a little bit. Ask the tough questions. It'll be fun. It's going to be fun, I assure you. But here's the thing I was thinking of, the whole great pinball podcasting singing band debate. When Din Din's away, the mini will play. Yeah, I don't care. If I'm on, I don't care.
    13:13
    Okay. We actually had a lot of news this week, and the correspondents are going nuts to give their takes on all of this week's pinball news. Wow, I can't wait to hear them correspond with us. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    13:33
    Chris Chandler here with your latest news in the world of Deep Root. Late this week, we saw the Deep Root website transition to just a header and a footer. That's it. This was soon followed by a low-key mention on their Facebook page that they were setting up a couple of machines at a local San Antonio coffee shop called What's Brewing. Deep Root was planning to keep it on the DL and keep it local. But our Austin-based TPN streaming buddies at Fliptronic offered to drive down and stream the fun. And Robert said, and I quote, Okay. To say the stream was hopping is an understatement. It peaked out in the neighborhood of almost 400 simultaneous folks watching the stream. Finally, everyone got to see what the Deep Six saw back in September, and it's clear that some changes have gone in since I saw this pin two months ago. A lot of the chat centered on the pin bar, either expressing how impressive it was, or cracking jokes about how you could surf Pornhub on it. Like, seriously, people made that joke multiple times. Stay classy pinball peeps. Anyway, make sure you check out the VOD to see the pin bar in action, because I really think this is a legitimate game changer. so long as Deep Root doesn't turn it into a tap and peck fest that interrupts gameplay. Now, the evening was not entirely without issues. There were some inexplicable reboots of the machine. But most importantly, we left the evening knowing just as little about Deep Root and where they are regarding shipping pins and how much they'll cost. And let's be honest, these are the only real questions left at this point about both Raza and Deep Root as a company. They need to start shipping Raza as soon as possible and show us what else they have in store. With your Deep Root update, this is Chris Chandler.
    15:18
    Stern Home Pin Ahoy! And Coders Break for Turkey! Hey everyone, Craig here again, the pinball show's Stern News Correspondent. Well, it's not exactly Led Zeppelin, but this past week Stern officially announced the availability of the Star Wars Comic Art Pin, a new stylish, affordable, and fun pinball machine designed and engineered for the home. This title is a reskin of the highly successful Star Wars original home pin with new Star Wars comic art. This is very similar to what Stern did with the reskin art package on the Star Wars Pro and Premium editions of their successful commercial machine. Due to the increased interest in home entertainment devices, Stern and their authorized distributors expect brisk sales of this title due to its popular Star Wars license and reduced price point versus its pro or premium cousins. And much to the disappointment of Dennis, a rare no-code week, as the Stern programmers take a much-needed week off to get their Thanksgiving Day houses in order. And so it would seem that Stern has played their final card of the year, but with a little more than a month left and demand for pinball through the roof, could there still be time for a holiday miracle for one last title before the end of the year? We shall wait and see. That's all for this week. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    16:49
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. In July of 2019, a company named Scorebit released a product for connecting pinball machines to the internet. It consists of a phone app and a platform that allow older games all the way from solid state to modern games to connect to the internet. Users of Scorebit can find places to play, keep track of scores on any Scorebit-enabled machine, and have live scores updated on a leaderboard for tournaments. Users can also submit their scores for world rankings, as well as game mode tracking, and lots of other uses for specific users like streamers and operators. Games get connected using something called a Scorebitron, which is basically an integrated circuit board that connects to the internet through Wi-Fi. These boards run about $300 per game. So this is the Jersey Jack update. Why am I telling you about Scorbit? Well, Jersey Jack is partnering with Scorbit to integrate Scorbit into all of their Wi-Fi-enabled machines. And the best part is they're doing it for free. Users who have the new Guns N' Roses or any previous machine that's enabled with Wi-Fi can download the apps and start right away with Scorebit. It's another great example of how Jersey Jack Pinball is innovating and really helps to bring players together when we all have to be apart. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Redberg with your Jersey Jack Update.
    18:21
    Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball Update. I reached out to Michael Grant, and American Pinball had a great time with the Hot Wheels Legends Tour. It was a great opportunity to show everyone the new Hot Wheels pinball machine with the celebrity guests and the sweepstakes. Even Snoop Dogg said that the pinball machine was dope. Also, I reached out to Joe Schober. They are hard at work at game number four. There's going to be a Hot Wheels code update in the next few weeks. And also, Josh Kugler is going to have a Houdini code update in the next few weeks. So, everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosner.
    19:00
    You know what's great, Zach? Hearing, especially from correspondents. Yeah it good Do you know what else is great There the pin bar There it is Oh where the pin bar There the pin bar I don really have a Hulk Hogan impression so my apologies to Ron Hallett Jr of Silver Ball Chronicles and the Slamtail Podcast. Oh, that's true. Like Hulk Jr. Did you know that TPN's very own Fliptronic streaming team got the exclusive on the Raza Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland pinball machine by Deep Root, the Stream. last second stream. I did. It was all really, that all came together really, really fast. Deep Root announced, I think at the beginning of mid last week, they announced that they were going to have it on location, the production models of Raza, a couple of them on location at what's, I think is what's brewing down in San Antonio. And they were going to let the public come and play it. Fliptronic reached out and said, a deep root. Would you be willing to let us throw a streaming rig over the top of it last second here and show the world? And Robert said sure. Fliptronic, for those of you who aren't familiar, is a very, very well done, very well executed, enjoyable, entertaining group of a male and a female, Jordan and Becca, and they're phenomenal and they're top-notch quality streamers, and they've come a long way over the last year. They stopped what they were doing. They prepared as much as they could. They got the equipment ready, jumped over there, and they streamed Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land for the world to see, and they had a really good show up there. A lot of people in stream watching as they played through. Robert Mueller was there. Steve Bowden was there to explain some of the ins and outs of the machine. They didn't want to give too much away. The team at Fliptronic was able to showcase gameplay, information from the Deep Root team, even different angles. They had five cameras hooked up. They had an exterior cabinet, topper cabinet. They really did a phenomenal job. But we did get some information about – because you were in that stream for a long time, right, Dennis? Yeah. I think they ran longer than they had planned. I believe they had only been set to do an hour, so I was there for an hour. I left, I assume, a little before whenever they ended their stream, but I saw almost all of it. We did get some information from Robert Mueller and from Steve Bowden, a couple things. Like within the next week or two, next couple weeks, we are going to formally know the availability of Raza, the pricing, the ordering process. Because a lot of people, they still don't know how to order this, how much it is. I had people reaching out to me at Flippin' Out saying, hey, can I get my name down on this? but I only laugh because it's interesting that they just assumed that you're a distributor. Yes. And they haven't decided and hadn't made public to my knowledge what they're doing with distribution stuff. I haven't heard. If I had to guess, I guess that with this first title, they probably tried to weather the storm alone and tried to do it themselves because they probably know it's a smaller run kind of thing. but after that I bet they're going to have to get some distributors on board. You don't think they're going to just sell it on the Stern page direct? We'll talk about that later. That's called foreshadowing. Yeah, nicely done.
    22:36
    They may try because they've tried a lot of things that I thought were bad ideas thus far, but this one I think it's just smarter to have. You don't have to have a ton of distribution network. Just have some well-respected parties that can help out with sales on this thing. Well, I don't think this title is going to have high demand. No, I don't either. They did talk about supply chain issues that have come up, noted by Robert Mueller. He claimed that all the other manufacturers are running into the same thing, but that has slowed them down quite a bit. And once they do start production, there will be a ramp up, three to four months, just to kind of get this production ramped up. There was a lot of information. What was your just overall first impression, first take of the way they presented this? Overall, yeah, I think that since it's claimed to be the production models, I think doing a stream wasn't a bad idea. Normally, I would say go more JJP route, have the video reveals, do the – like we saw with GNR. But the cat's kind of out of the bag already because of what they did with the Deep Six and everything and the Twip deep dive kind of from the tour. It's like they can't do – they can't reveal – the game has already been revealed. So the prototypes had already been out before. So given the short notice and everything, I thought the stream itself was a pretty good idea. I thought it executed fairly well. I think some people in the chat seemed a little frustrated about wanting more of a traditional full walkthrough, which they weren't willing to do. But everyone has their own sort of impression. I thought you got a really good amount of time to actually watch gameplay.
    24:16
    And my overall take of the game itself was that it looked significantly better than the prototypes did a year ago. Yeah, that's a good take. I agree for the most part. I think that if I was in, and you know, hindsight here, but if I was in his position, the principal, Robert Mueller, I don't know if I show this now. Marketing-wise, you best sell products by the immediate response of them. When you reveal something, that's why GNR did hit home so well. That's why they got flooded with sales because it was presented, Dennis and listener, in a way that people wanted it. They wanted it now, so they impulsively will pull out their wallets and they will buy it. This thing that Deep Root's doing, I think, is not helping. I see your point. I guess my issue is I think that Robert and the crew at Deep Root is fighting something else, though. It's not just about the sale of the game. They are having to fight the narrative and part of their own creation that this is a company that's dealing in vaporware. Wow.
    25:20
    A lot of people think that. Yeah, exactly. why I think doing this was even, it's not the best, like, if we could do it all over again, this was not the right way. But given where they are at, I think it was a logical step to make. To show that they've been making progress, that it isn't all, oh yeah, well, here's just a spiel and a bunch of still photos, talking about pin pods and stuff. Instead, it's back to about the games. Which, what was my big issue with what came out of the the six that went down was it's like it was about everything except raza there was hardly anything about the game that we heard you did say that yeah this helps address that but i do i do agree with you that like when it comes to production and sale and in a normal setup with a normal company and a normal launch i would not have done it like this but because it's not ready to sell them yet in the stream itself it actually it turned the narrative a bit so they've got to be thankful that the team from flip tronic came in and did that i don't know if that's when i would have done it but since they did make that decision it did turn the narrative i agree i before we started recording i did go to pin side and i checked out the deep root thread and i actually post stream now see more supportive comments than negative comments about the pin bar there are buyers now that was a good showing for them i just don't know if that's when i would have done it how i would have done it i would have had a you almost have to have if you're trying to it didn't feel like they're trying to sell this thing to me well i mean they were they weren't willing to commit on price or anything like that so no they're they're still at a stage where they're not like the stream wasn't designed to sell pins and in a way that's kind of weird to us it's odd but it's very odd I'm just trying to, you know, remembering where they are, how far behind they are, and the disaster of the Deep Six stuff. I mean, that was a mess. And there's damage that had to be undone. Does this undo that damage? I think it does, in part. It does help. It did change that narrative, thankfully, for Deep Root. My takeaways from the game itself, we saw some pretty cool innovation. We can't ignore anymore, I don't think. We've seen it now. One of the things like the shot log, this feature is pretty innovative. A shot log will record if you're hooked up to the Internet online. It will record every shot that you take in the entirety of that game. Not only that game, but it will put it, I guess, in a server and hashtag the cloud. I don't know where in the hell it goes. But Robert Mueller said it will record every one of your shots for every game's, quote, for eternity. I don't know what that can be used for unless it's like what you were talking about, the rogue stuff. You get the ghost coming back. I don't know. but it records it all. That's interesting. Yeah, I'm not quite sure. From an operator perspective, I can see value. It would be like pulling audits where you find out. I don't know if you need to know every single shot per se, but pretty much being like, oh, okay, we're mostly getting drains out the left out lane. Maybe we need to make an adjustment, or this ramp is not being shot as much as the other ramp. That could be useful to DeepRoot if they're doing a code update, and they're like, oh, we've got to incentivize the jump ramp. No one's shooting it. Well, I think the data, though, can be used later on in innovative ways. Oh, yeah, probably. You can't go backwards and record it all. With cloud access, sure. If you wanted to design games that relied on dynamic shifts in what you do based off of how shots were created. Sure. Stuff like that. So that was an interesting feature. Some of the positives that I took away from gameplay here, the orbits look butter smooth. I like that. John Papaduke has pretty cool orbits in his games, a lot of horseshoe quick orbits. I love the orbits. The ramp actually works. That was another positive for me, positive takeaway. The ramp works, and it looks like a fun ramp. I like the diverter on top. It may be a little bit slower, but guess what, guys? If you're used to John Papaduke games, that's what happens. I'm okay with that. The exterior lighting on this cabinet, like the panel, the arc panel lights up, and that was dynamic. That thing was beautiful. I didn't get to see it close enough in person. I worry that it will be a bit, maybe a bit sloppy around the edges. If it's all like a P3 multimorphic kind of thing, I worry about that. But from far away, it looked really good. And I don't know why all of my cabinets can't be like that. That's how impactful it was for me. Oh, I thought it looked really good. It was way better executed than Highway did. Oh, Lord, yes. Yeah, and then we talked about that, like just that panel versus the whole thing. But, I mean, there's some great photos people can see from when the stream was getting set up where it just glows. It stands out. It would be on location a great eye catcher. I agree with most of your statements that you made, like obviously the ramp was working. Yeah, orbits look good. Well, the orbits look smooth, except it looked to me like the left orbit shot, which feeds out the right orbit, was dropping the ball on top of the post of the right sling. I saw a lot of clean. I saw a lot of coins in the right flip. So it must have just been when it kind of pittered out slower. And that's an adjustment kind of thing. Well, that was to me. Well, maybe we need to get to that because there were some adjustment issues I took with this. It made it look a little clunky.
    30:43
    Yeah. And maybe more than a little in some spots. The positives here, the topper. They do have a topper. I did see some 3D molding and some lights on it. I didn't get to see it in detail. A couple of things I would change on that topper rubber. But you don't care about my opinion. The topper, it's there. I love toppers. The play field art was dynamic. It looked good. Very, very, very colorful. Even for original IP stuff, usually I don't care to look at dialed-in mom jeans. But it looked good. It looked really good. And, fuck, Dennis, the pin bar was cool. In what way? It just visually looked cool. I liked that all the functioning was at your fingertips. you could turn up the volume up and down at the fingertips i think it functionally some people were like well they they went into the shop so they don't what what do they do there i knew what to do because i read fun with bonus and steve bowden posted something the day before on when you get into the shop you're going to see this on the pin bar the left area you're going to see four boxes to start a mode the right area these are items or power-ups kind of things you like i I already read through that, so I knew exactly what to do. But some people were like, oh, this is, I don't know, this is weird. I don't know what to, I knew what to do. I just liked the whole functioning of that pin bar. It was dynamic. It looked good to me. I agree, actually. I thought it looked clean. I liked the menu system. I thought that the screen use of it during the game, basically showing you what was also on the back box, was good. I think some people wish it looked different. but I think it's you're more likely to look down I think than you are to actually look up while you're playing because you're already looking at the flippers so peripheral vision I see a lot of advantages to having that placed there so I liked how they were using the pin bar I agree with you I thought the playfield art looked really good the topper I didn't get a good view of and I'm not a topper person so I don't really have a strong opinion I thought the sound was excellent yeah I saw you note the sound you really liked the sound yeah I just thought it was different I thought it was like they had sort of a goofy set of sound effects without being obnoxious. Yeah, very carnival, but still a little sinister, a little mysterious. Yeah, and I liked what animations there were. I felt there weren't a lot that I really saw, but I liked what they were doing on the display with the animations. That's a good point. And the animations that we saw that were just outstanding were not for Raza. They were being promoted for like the Merlin stuff or whatever all the other games were. And while I would say it felt like the play field was dark from a GI perspective, the light show itself, while not GNR, was a decent light show. Those Penn Stadium kind of things that were built into the car lid hood, I don't know. They need to make those more frosted or more – what do they call it? Oh, yeah. Do you think they're too, like, bulb-exposed? Yes, yeah. It's just like an LED strip. Frosted. You want it more frosted, yeah. You need to throw frost on there just so it disperses that light a lot better. because otherwise it's just going to look too aftermarket-y. So I think that's an easy fix there. But I like that the – I want it to be more individually controlled RGB instead of just – it reminded me of when you first install Penn Stadiums, they just do this flashing things until you program them, and it's super annoying. So I like that the lights are there. I like that the hood, you lift up the hood of the thing there to get to the play field. That was pretty cool because they did that to get a ball out. A stuck ball? I saw two stuck balls. Oh, yeah, yeah. And speaking of negatives, that was one of them, was in an hour period having two stuck balls. I mean, I don't experience that on any of the games I own. I like this. If I'm thinking about the positives before the negatives, it was much better perceived by me this time around than it ever has been. Oh, I agree. There's a lot of great stuff on this, a lot of innovation that I think moving forward pinball needs to utilize. So full round of applause for a lot of this stuff The problem And it echoes what you've said And what others have said I'm getting a lot of Dan this is innovative Dan this is nice On the exterior of the game But when we really get down to the game itself Dennis I don't think this game was tested If it was It was before they moved it to the facility Fair enough This thing did not shoot well. I can't say it didn't shoot well. The code needs a lot of work still. They had a couple resets. Yeah, I think I saw two or three of those. I was shocked to see that, even more than the stuck ball. Even the flippers needed work. I don't know if it was an EOS or something, but you could tell when the ball would hit them really hard, those flippers would bounce a little bit. There's something going on there. When you do a full flip, hold power wasn't enough. Yes, something there wasn't. Everyone and their mother saw the issues with the left sling. Yeah, that was. Which was functional, but it's like the switch was like gapped three inches wide or something because it would only trigger on the hardest of hits. It felt like, because we all know that there's two switches typically on a sling, it felt like one of the switches was properly aligned. One of them was gapped too far, so you didn't get consistent hits there. I think that might have been just an easy fix. But even like if you're going to set this up for the public, I don't even care if you didn't even know it was for the stream. Damn it. You agreed to the stream. Make sure the thing is tweaked. Just make sure it's tweaked. Like just like you said, the orb is hitting the top sling. The plunge. I know that's not where they wanted the plunges to go. The plunge went right into the left sling. It's supposed to go to the duck carousel or the roulette thing. Just tweak it, guys. Even the silicone. You damn well know that when you play this game to test it, when you set it up, I do this, it shows if I set it up, I know what's playing good and what's not. This is a manufacturer. Bad silicone. Whatever silicone you were using was way too bouncy. Looked like that damn GNR before I changed the damn Titans. Or a Spooky. Way too bouncy, which makes people think the game is floaty. That is what people will think quickly. Game's floaty. It's bouncy. It's bricky because you can't get control of the shots. If you can't get control of the flippers and the ball, it's going to come across as clunky elsewhere. It starts with the flipper silicone. It sounds stupid, Dennis, but I would argue that until I'm blue in the face. I didn't pick up on that as much as I did.
    37:20
    I was a little, and again, I don't know the rules, at a loss for what exactly was worth shooting for. And most of the shots, aside from the right ramp, didn't look particularly enjoyable to me. That is a great point. and that's one that I hammer home more than anything when watching the game play. It was like the ramp and the orbits, and that was about if they were feed to the flippers. And that was it. I didn't understand the duck carousel, the jump ramp shot I remain skeptical of. Maybe I'm more skeptical of it now than I was before. I agree because it didn't do anything. Up the middle shots looked extremely floaty. What a waste of space mid-playfield, or not mid-playfield, top playfield. What in the hell is going on up there? I thought that was more like the NED sculpt that you were shooting for, but I just didn't understand why you would ever shoot up the middle. Yeah there really nothing of substance to physically shoot in this game The orbits are nice but I can play a fucking EM and have nice orbits It just goes back to there stand targets everywhere The game shot, it looked like it shot like an American pinball machine. Really strong flippers, but we've got a lot of stand-ups, a lot of bounce, a lot of clunk. That's the feel that I got of this game. There's nothing wrong with an American pinball machine. It's not my preferred way to play a pinball machine. I like the feel of a Sterner, Jersey Jack Moore, this didn't come across well i don't know what that 360 ramp or that turnaround i don't know what it does a little spinner thing is a small footprint so it's not going to spin like a gnr you know hat spinning disc there's nothing fun to shoot what the hell was there to shoot besides the orbits and that one single ramp again there's a single ramp here unless you call that flip around brew a ramp but it didn't i don't know what it did i didn't see it shot very much so So it was the jump ramp, the left ramp. Yeah. I like the kickback. Did you see the kickback, how it comes up, Avok, and does the pin bot thing kind of back to the left flipper? No, I must not have looked at the play field when that happened. Man, there are some really smart things in here, but I think early on in the development of this gameplay, somebody should have just sat down with John Papadouk and said, where's the Totem? Where's the Circus Voltaire? Where's my big interactive toy? I've got nothing here John I guess it's the Ferris wheel Jesus don't get me started on the Ferris wheel I mean but that was like I asked the hosts the Fliptronic hosts what's your favorite toy or innovation to shoot on the playfield before I left the stream and I think one of them said the Ferris wheel was the one that was the most noteworthy to them and I forget what the other one said if it was the duck targets they didn't say the same thing And that's just by default because that's the only other thing in there.
    40:15
    You cannot tell me that somebody in the production of this or the process of designing this thing didn't say, John, hey, the Ferris wheel, that's kind of been done on Cyclone or whatever damn Outslore game that was. And people really didn't care for it back in the 80s, so I'm not sure in 2020 people are going to give two shits about this thing. That feature always reminds me of Maverick and the steamboat and just the slowness of the ball lock. Another game that doesn't get love for a reason. Poor Maverick. It needs a big mechanism in it, something that interacts with that ball. Well, this is the production model, so it is what it is. It is. They did say, and that's the other thing, it did not look or feel like a production model to me. You didn't think so? No, I didn't. I thought it looked like a production model I didn't think so I saw some rough stuff still on there I mean other than the code and the issues with like the rebooting that looked to me like it still wasn't ready for prime time but not the actual physicality of it some of these things were easy fixes too if you want a game not to look clunky control the ball with controllable flippers it starts there, that's it because if a player can control the ball with those flippers they will make accurate shots. When you make accurate shots, it doesn't look as clunky. Period.
    41:38
    It's a fair point. He who controls the spice controls the universe. And I don't want to take away from this company because my going-away message here is I'm looking forward to the other machines they're making now because of some of the innovation and things they are showing us on Rasa, but I am not interested in purchasing a Rasa. But I do have some interest. My interest isn't dead is what I'm saying. Right, right, right. No. Well, and I've always I've been, I think, pretty forthright that historically I've not been a particular fan of John Papaduke designs. And I'm not surprised that I'm not highly interested in this layout. In fact, I'm I'm probably surprised I like aspects of it as much as I do. But, yeah, even in the stream, I think there was someone I forget who who actually said, I believe that I quote, where's my effing Goonies deep root? That was me, yeah. Oh, it was you. Oh, what a coincidence that I remember that one line. Yeah. So I'm looking more forward to other titles from them is my point. Yeah, it's a good point. And I am a John Papaduke design, let me preface this, design fan. I love his games so much so that I've got a Circus Voltaire. I've got a Tales of Arabian Nights. I am looking at some point to get a World Cup Soccer. I think that is greatness. Theater of Magic is greatness if they had different code. Star Wars Episode I, don't have enough time on it. I'm a big fan. So for me to say, John, I, you're not doing anything for me here. That's, that's a, that's a big blow. It's big for you. Yeah. But you're growing as a person and that's the point. I am. See, I'm playing video games. Oh, getting old. I'm compromising on my style. Yeah. Negotiation. Who would have ever thought you would sink to that? How much I love you, Dennis. So, yep. I'm looking forward to the company because of the awesome stuff that they did showcase here. I need my Goonies pin. I need Yukon Yeti. I'm looking forward to it. I'm excited, but this game will not do it for me, nor will I think, I don't think this sells a lot of units. How many do you think this sells? 100? No more than 500. I don't see how. There is no way it sells more than 500. I'm including the deal, the. Yeah, the Zidware. The Zidware, yeah, recipients getting their games to my count of 500. But no, I don't think it crosses 500. I think they'd be lucky to sell 100, which I think you're going to see a pretty damn high price because they know that. And it may struggle even more because of the effect of a higher price. We'll see. That's part of why it's hard for me to give you a number is I don't know how much they're going to sell them for. If the game's relatively inexpensive, interest might be higher just because it's not a lot to get in on. But I don't think this is going to be in the price range of a Stern Pro. If I'm Robert Mueller right now, I am saying, hey, guys, everybody in the whole factory, drop what you're doing. Our next exciting game that's going to sell probably Goonies. We're all hands on deck on that. We've got to come out with this thing at the same point because people, we can at least maybe people will buy this damn Raza because they're collecting our games after they've seen our next one. If they're trying to fund continuation of this company based on Raza, I don't think they're going to succeed. No, I feel very strongly about that. I mean, quite frankly, we know that license is sell. We've discussed that ad nauseum on this podcast. If I were Deep Root, I would have prioritized, or at least Raza's Raza, so we need to just keep moving forward with that. But in terms of next game, Goonies would be the smartest move. If you don't want to do Goonies, do The Who. If you're not going to do The Who, do the Yukon Yeti and try and lean into the people wanting a Whitewater sequel. Those are in that order. And it's got to be a good shooter and jam-packed. I would go all in on that. I would even say, Dennis, maybe even say, you know what? This was our concept, like cars do, manufacturers. This is our concept of what a pinball machine could be like from Deep Root. And not even manufacturer, Raza. Make 10. Concept only. 10 of them. They've spent so much time on it. Can you imagine them doing it, though? That's what they should do. There's no need for this. Yeah, but they've spent years letting this. I mean, this is the only game they show us. So they've spent so much time on it. They got to feel like they at least have to try and recoup some of their R&D on it. If the rule set's that good, take it and put it into a different game. Don't, I don't know. Just my take. I wouldn't, I don't think this is going to do well. We'll see. Something else is not doing well, so much so that it's gone. And that's the replay foundation. It lives on virtually. Terminated operations for Pinberg and replay effects for the foreseeable future. They're liquidating assets. There's a lot of story here. People are talking about it. I don't think we go into it too deep. At some point, I think you will because you've been researching this a bit, and you've got some great takes. But right now, the community, the pinball community, is reflecting upon this. They're mourning this. And I've not been, so I'm not the best at, you know, what can I say? I never went either. I mean, it's a huge loss to the competitive scene. It is the biggest tournament of pinball in the world.
    46:53
    The format was well-loved. There's a reason why I always thought it was a bit silly for the Twippies to have a best tournament category because Pinberg was a guaranteed winner every time. I guess now this category makes a lot more sense. That's true. Maybe it's viable this year. Yeah, that's another factor. But yeah, no, it's a – I mean, the Replay Foundation is still continuing as a nonprofit in an online-only sense. I think a lot of people will go and ask, well, what's the point? Like, why are they doing that? They do have all those Papa tutorial videos and such. I don't know how they build upon that library, but I assume the plan will be they'll eventually get to a point where they can still provide that to the community. And that is a very useful and popular resource. But ReplayFX and Pinberg and any other tournaments, I don't think we ever see them get back into doing those. Not if they're liquidating their assets. Yeah. Who can argue that? Because the company has a lot of debt. The nonprofit corporation has a lot of debt, and they acknowledged that in their announcement. They also acknowledged that they had been for years struggling to reach break-even status, which means they had been losing money. They were reliant on other income sources besides Pinnberg to keep them afloat. And with that, those debts were coming due and they have elected rather than – because I think if you go to tilt forums, which is where a lot of the competitive discussion often happens, there were a lot of people – everyone's shocked. But there were a lot of people who were – I would describe it as outraged that there wasn't any sort of serious effort to reach out to the community to bail this out. That was odd. And I agree. I thought it was strange. But I think given the debt load that they had, they decided rather than take the chance and have a bad 2021 as well, that it was just to their governing board, that it was easier to pull the plug and rely on selling the assets, which as I understand it, I'm not quite sure how much they need to raise. But they have like over a million dollars in arcade and pinball machine assets, at least as of their 2018 tax returns. So based off of that, I think they're like, prices are good right now. In fact, prices have gone up with everyone during the pandemic. Let's sell now and just be done with it. Yeah, I think the abruptness of this may be a reflection of how big in the hole they were or how deep in the hole they were. Right, and I think it would have been very challenging to do a fund – and that's something that can be discussed at another point. There are a variety of mix-and-match scenarios that one could have constructed as a strategy. so i it is my personal judgment that there was a way to allow them to keep some of their assets and plan to try and do something in 2021 or 2022 but they did not want to walk that path for whatever reason and that's up to their governing board so they decided just to get out of it i think the thing that was so shocking was when pinberg didn't happen and replay effects didn't happen and that was announced i mean i think people thought that things weren't too bad they I went back and read that announcement. They even flat out used the phrase force majeure in their announcement to the public, which implied to me and everyone else I think who's familiar with contracts that they weren't going to be billed by the foundation for breaking contract for 2020. So I think everyone thought, oh, well, they got out of having to pay for the facility in 2020, and they told everyone, don't worry. You're going to hold your spots. We're going to keep your tickets. So the whole messaging was, it's business as usual next year. We're just going to roll everything forward. And then all of a sudden, a few months later, it's like, no, this is an announcement that we have struggled and we have to close. We have to stop all our physical presence. We have to stop doing all tournaments. We have to get rid of everything we own. So the question I think everyone asks is, will we see another Pinnberg? And my answer would be, not by the Replay Foundation and whatever gets constructed within Pittsburgh. I think they will try and host something. it will not be at the volume that folks are used to. It will not. Those games are scattering to the wind as we speak. Yes, they are. Because I know some people, they got price lists. I've been seeing people going, wishing for like a Bill Gates to swoop in and buy the whole lot. They've already sold games. The whole lot isn't available anymore. They've already sold them. I've been told a lot of the, because my big concern there was, you know, how do we keep Pember going? It's the rare stuff. The other shit you can find, but the rare stuff. And I've been told by somebody who was given the price list and stuff, a lot of the rare stuff is already gone.
    51:30
    So there's no getting that back. They need this cash. And even setting aside that maybe everyone would be willing to – that they could find it all again. Let's bear in mind that after they – let's say it was the Replay Foundation wanting to get back into this. They had acquired these games over years at, quite frankly, at this point, bargain basement pricing compared to what's going on in 2020. They need so much capital to bring back just what they're getting rid of right now. It's not realistic. Based on their numbers, Dennis, it sounds like these machines were the only thing that was kind of making them money. I don't want to be harsh, but that was the only thing showing profit. Unsurprisingly, ReplayFX was their big revenue generator. The Pembroke Tournament coupled with the convention was the only thing they were really running. What else is there? Direct donations. I looked at their 2018 990. They got a few thousand like that, but not much. There's a big discussion here. Oh, okay. It looks like to me that coronavirus did not help. This pandemic did not help this, but they were bleeding before for a while. Sure. I think the issue is there was an assumption that some of their debt, which hasn't been suspended, I'm assuming, in terms of repayment, that there was going to be activity this year that would have let them help with that, and there wasn't. So I think that's where the struggle is. I mean, again, just going back to that 2018 tax return, there was a loan on that paper. And this is public paperwork, folks. You can all read it if you want.
    53:03
    It was due at the end of this year in December. So I think that's it. I think that's a big chunk of it. I think it's done. And I don't know how much was still owed because I don't know how much was paid off in 2019. But that loan was over $400,000. from 2018. It was issued in 2018. I mean, it's a lot of debt. Is it fair to say that next week on the Collected Gamers podcast, you and Tony will dive into this a little bit?
    53:30
    We're still discussing it. I mean, it's a sensitive topic. It's part of the issue. I don't want to come across like I'm attacking Replay Foundation. No, I think people, Dennis... They made the decision that they felt was right for them. I think my perspective that we may go into is that if there had been a desire, there was a way, there was a path forward. And maybe if they had an executive director who was guiding them and coming up with long-term planning, they could have prepared for this better. But with what happened with the pandemic, I think that it was just easier to just get out of it and be sure that they could satisfy all their debts without any sort of crisis or anything like that. And you don't want to hear the praise, but I think one of the biggest things that you bring as a pinball ambassador, Dennis is your objectivity and people know that you can present information that they wouldn't know otherwise because of your ability to do some research and looking into things. So I think the, I think the community would be able to hear it from you objectively and without any, you know, opinions more so than anybody else. So hopefully, hopefully you guys can talk about it or you can talk about it a little bit more. We'll cover the topic. I don't know. I just don't know where we're going to exactly go with the discussion. I think we'll probably contemplate what a bailout scenario would have had to look like, and then people can draw their own conclusions if that was going to just be too aggressive or not to be feasible. Very good. So tune in to Eclectic Gamers Podcast, possibly for a little bit of information there, or in a couple weeks from now, Dennis can come back and talk on TPS about it. Oh, we'll have new news by then, Zach. This hobby is just rolling forward. Oh, man, a lot of news this week. Onward through the pinball news, we stumble upon the super awesome pinball show with Christopher Franchi and Christian Line. They had a co-host this week, Matt Reister from Back Alley Creations, the owner and operator of that mod company, and also an artist that works with manufacturers doing sculpts and different things that you see with Jersey Jack Pinball, Chicago Gaming Company, American Pinball. I didn't realize how much Matt worked on. He's working on like five or six machines at once all the time. It's really quite interesting. And Matt. He might be the third hardest working man in pinball. It helps that he's like one of the sweetest people I've met too. So I loved hearing him on that show. And I think he's got a potential gig in the future on pinball podcasting. He's really good. He talked about that. He talked about the balance of creating things for a manufacturer. And then ultimately if budget doesn't hold, they can't make what he was wanting, then does he sell it? It was an interesting discussion. You'll have to go back and listen to the episode to hear that. He talked about, for me, what piqued my interest in aftermarket Guns N' Roses topper. So he's working on that. That's pretty awesome. But the big thing of the Super Awesome Pinball Show, they got the individuals in charge of that Stern anniversary book that has had a lot of drama over the last 10 years. Paper flock. Now I have to, full disclosure, I've not heard this episode yet. I actually played the replay episode to catch up on that, and then this is in my queue, but I've not heard this interview yet. I am looking forward to it, though. So I listened to it last night, full duration. I will say it was cringeworthy, and you'll soon see why. But for the details, go back and see. Will I see why or will I hear why? Maybe both. Nope. Maybe both. 3D. Super awesome pinball show. It was a bit cringeworthy. Mostly the Paper Flop guys. A couple other things. But the Paper Flop guys, boy, oh, boy. So I will commend Christian for asking the right questions. They did ask the right questions. And a lot of podcasts that I listen to, not only Pinball, but just in general, and a lot of TV interviews I see, they refrain from asking questions that are going to stir up some discomfort. These guys, they did it perfectly. They allowed an open supportive thing and then toward the end they kind of said hey we need some answers here They didn follow up with when something came out from one of these fellows at Paper Flock that were just I don need to be sensitive It was fucking asinine, some of the stuff that they were saying and the way they were presenting. They didn't follow up with what you just said was crazy. Can you elaborate? But they did ask the tough questions. The things that we need to know, this whole thing has been three-plus years in development. That's a long time for a book. A lot of delays. They thought they were going to have this thing done in six months, Dennis. Six months. Oh, did they? Wow. I was never in on this project, so I think the most I know about it is hearing from Martin Robbins over with Final Round. Okay. Because he was a backer. Yes. Yeah. And I wasn't either, and it wasn't really a story for me, to be honest, until I heard this interview and thought, wow, no wonder people are so shitty. they're covering 91 games 91 stern games in this book and the book will end at Aerosmith that's the last chronologically the last title they covered it was very clear throughout this interview that these guys showed no remorse they actually became defensive about some of these questions you could just maybe it's just the psychologist in me I was able to pun intended read them like a book and it made me cringe. Like a book that took over three years to come out? Oh, that charged a hundred and something on shipping. They were trying to justify the shipping cost. Holy crap, did that get covered? Yes, they asked about it, but they tried to justify it. And basically with snark saying, go to USPS and do it yourself and see. This is what they, and just, oh, these guys couldn't get out of their own way. But they did bring up some interesting, they were supposed to get archival photography from some type of owners, but it was damaged in floods, and they were banking on that, but that really hit a delay because they couldn't do anything with that stuff. They couldn't really convey why it took them so long. It sounded as if, psychologically, one or both of them felt defeated and almost gave up a couple times, but they didn't know what to do with the money. It was a mess. They even threw Stern under the bus at one point, Dennis, and said that they were ghosted by Stern for up to six months, getting a response just to allow them the agreed upon access to the machines in the agreement. Six months of the throne starting on the bus. The guy with the, quote, creative drive, he just kind of sounded overwhelmed to me. And to be fair, lacking skill. I don't think they knew what they were doing. They talked a couple times about how much training and expertise that they had to learn just required for the entirety of this project. That's not good, Dennis. When somebody's writing a book and doing photography, if they realized that they didn't really know what they were doing or how to do this, what a mess. This is all very weird to me. And then they were pushing. They were like wanting us to feel bad for them. They lost money. They lost money on this project. Yeah, well, with $140 shipping, yeah, I believe that. They even had to hire a Canadian. I cracked up. A Canadian? A Canadian writer named Zach that came down across the border to help them write and re-interview the Stern employees. And then they probably complained that he put a U after an O in all of the words. And then they had to edit it. What?
    61:03
    So they didn't even do half the damn interviews. It's weird that they had to re-enter. Like, I don't understand why. Never mind. I have to hear it. Just go listen. There was some really cringy stuff about John Trudeau throughout this that were stated. Oh, I needed a shower after this interview. It wasn't a good look. And then they doubled down, man. And they talked about pitching to the audience, the listener, that they thought the book was worth more than it was priced at. If it was with somebody else, it would be even more. The materials. You should have felt the materials. They were thick pages.
    61:38
    Oh, Jesus, guys. their number one goal they said is to have this thing rerun by a larger publisher when asked about people are worried they're spending this much and you're just going to run it with a large publisher and they're really not getting anything that's limited because you're pushing this being limited collectors editions the terms they're using small run and they were like oh absolutely our number one goal is to get it to a large publisher to do another run of it I think Christian Line even asked, would you do the Kickstarter thing over again? Would you really do a pinball? He was trying to give them the out here. One of the guys said no. He has no intention on doing anything in pinball. He sounded salty towards the pinball industry. The other guy was all in. Yeah, he's thought about doing fold-out, transparent overlay effects of the book. I'm like, dude, if you can't figure this out in three years at the budget, you need to hang it up. I didn't even care about this until this interview. Now I'm my. Yeah, I mean, I always just assumed it would end up being yet another failed Kickstarter. That might not be common in pinball, but it is common in Kickstarter. And, you know, I've heard so many horror stories. We have an episode of EGP where where Tony talks for an hour about his worst failed Kickstarter. Oh, man. It was I think that was a couple of years ago where he covered all that. But yeah, it's just wow. There's just no remorse. Like these guys, when asked about Kickstarter, they're like, we'd do it again. But people need to realize and have actual expectations of what others – I think it would be interesting for someone to go and – people probably already have to go just to the UPS or USPS or whatever shipper you prefer website and get a quote for how much it costs to ship a four-pound book because I'm telling you, it ain't $140. Well, the t-shirts come in another thing and the poster comes in another thing. If this was any other episode, I'd go full into Dr. Phil and give him a screw you paper flock. But this is the subtle. This is a professional podcast. Well, I don't know. I got a little unraveled there. Let's talk about Stern Pinball. They have a new pin. Did you see it? Yes, I did. We talked about this last week, though. Yeah, we kind of presented this to everybody a week or two ago. So they formally announced the comic edition of Star Wars the pin They did give us some updates in the distribution meeting Leading up to this reveal that I thought listeners would find interesting They are producing Stern Pinball at a very, very high rate Actually, they are producing at a higher rate than they typically do pre-COVID That was surprising to hear They are doing overtime, they are doing Saturday They are doing everything they can to get caught up all while increasing measures for safety, production. Gary really did a good job of laying out everything. That's what we need in this industry. That's why Stern does it better than anybody. They communicate better than anyone. And that sounds crazy, right, to the listener? That sounds nuts.
    64:43
    But objectively, I'm telling you guys, they do what they're supposed to do as a manufacturer. Better than, maybe not as well as I'd want them to at times, but they do better than anybody else. They also talked about production schedule modifications. They did have to make some bumps in their production schedule. Higher end things like the Elviras or the Batmans, they were getting bumped a little bit in efforts to bring in Q4, the pen pros of different Avengers and Turtles and different things like that. I don't know how much sense that makes to me, but I just sell more to enthusiasts. So I guess that's just my bias there. one of the most interesting things, Dennis, that Gary dropped on us. I don't know if anybody's... Dropped doesn't sound happy. I wasn't happy about it, but it's not the end of the world. But they've done something now that I wasn't expecting them to ever do. Something that manufacturers do elsewhere that I never agree with. And Gary said that here soon, Stern will be... They'll actually be selling themselves, not distributors. they will be selling the original Star Wars the pin. Not the comic version, but the original one. They're going to be selling it online. Like on their website. Yeah. Talk about a punch in my gut.
    66:04
    Now, granted, they're going to be selling it for MSRP. They're going to have a white glove option. You're going to be paying tax. So, I mean, this is as much as you can pay for a Star Wars the pin. If you go through a dealer, it's likely cheaper. But Stern is going to be selling their own product. Machine product. That's a big change. Yeah.
    66:26
    Did they say why? They may have, but I was just so, it was a 7 a.m. meeting. I was kind of out of it. But I do appreciate that it is, at this point, just the pen. It is more a consumer kind of thing, and it is not the new fresh one. It is the one that has been out for, what are we going on, over a year now. I don't throw a fit if they keep it here. Now, if they were cornerstones or commercial, I mean, they do whatever the hell they want. It's their company. But I think they get the love from dealers because of their fairness a lot. Right, right. It's one of those, well, I mean, we've talked a number of times about how it is seeing you as a new distributor and learning and working with all these different companies and how Stern does generally seem to treat you in a way that one could easily argue is superior to what some of the other companies do. They run a business. They run a legit business, and a lot of things they do make sense, and they communicate. As a dealer, Stern Pinball makes a ton of sense. Every once in a while, you get something squirrely like this, and they do some squirrely stuff, video adapter stuff.
    67:37
    Right, right. And if this is where you don't want to go, feel free to edit this out. fair uh but so as a distributor i would be curious if this is a hypothetical stern just this is like we're not doing distributors anymore we're just we're selling everything direct would you still be a distributor if you didn't have stern oh um at this point what we've been able to build in last year and a half yes if you would have asked me this a year in i would say no It would be a monumental hit to most distributors out there that distribute Stern. Stern is the products.
    68:25
    Are they over half your business? Absolutely, and it's not even close. Okay. Not even close. Stern is the products. That shouldn't come as a surprise to any listeners or manufacturers. I'm not surprised. but it might be a surprise to listeners who don't you know probably don't normally think about that yeah true uh gnr changed things a bit but they're not building them where's my gnrs at yeah they're not building them interesting interesting updates um i think we're going to see that next cornerstone just as you had been guessing right uh end of 2020 beginning of 2021 yeah i've been saying january My specific month prediction, January 2021. Look at that. You might get right. You might be right, Dennis. For once. I'm usually ever so wrong with my forecasts. I get to say I'm wrong a lot when it comes to predictions. Speaking of manufacturers, Jersey Jack Pinball had a code update for Guns N' Roses, version 1.08, where they added an attract mode jukebox. That's pretty neat. I like that. Yeah, streamers will love it.
    69:33
    Score a bit. scorebit hmm scorebit that's that fancy board thing yeah partnership with scorebit so this code update includes scorebit scoring and mode support because Jersey Jack Pinball has partnered with scorebit yeah scoring technology I'm kind of an idiot with it but they're allowing it free of use which I think is super cool because this is like a subscription based thing yeah actually I think it's really expensive yeah it's free to use and it shows real time scoring I've been able to figure it out. The real-time scoring is cool because if you follow a friend that's playing Guns N' Roses using the score bit, you can see ball, like switch for switch, the scoring accumulate.
    70:17
    Oh, yeah. A lot of tournaments were really excited about it because it works with so many different games. And you could even integrate it because of that capability into automatically reporting the scores when the game's done instead of having to rely on the risk of human error of inputting it in. I think even like errors and I think even like tech notices or like if a switch, I don't know. I don't know enough about it, but I think it relays a lot of information on an app or on the Internet for you. It's all connected, but it's really neat. I put a high score up there. I can challenge people and say, hey, try to beat my score. I can follow people. You can search around your area and what pins are around and what are score bit enabled. I think this is, and I was told by George Jack, this is kind of just the beginning of the capabilities of score a bit. They're just happy to introduce this free of charge and that it has all these capabilities already.
    71:10
    I'm spent. That was a lie. I need a vacation, man. You do. I just need a break. I don't care. You have a hard life. It could be, you know, in a closet. I just need a break. But with that being said, what will not be breaking is a pinball network. got a lot of fun stuff coming up. We had a lot of cool stuff this last week. Last week was like a heavy TPN content week. Shitload of streamers. We had the final round. We had the Chronicles Borg episode. Really good stuff. Jesse J was up last week. We were there for everybody to go back and listen to if you haven't already. Where can people catch you between now and EGP? Like always, email me at collectogamerspodcast.gmail.com or you can send a message through facebook.com slash the collective gamers podcast that's the best way to reach out directly to me but you can always email the pinball network at gmail.com if zach sees it's actually relevant to me he'll pass it along yeah so you can reach out to us there thanks dennis or catch me at straight down the middle of pinball series on youtube you can email me there at sdt and pinball at gmail.com what's in stock at flipping out zach oh thank you dennis it's almost as if it was on your notes to cue me no it was on your notes to I'm a helper. You're nice. Flipping Out Pinball has a lot of stuff in stock in the holiday season here, but it's going, going, gone pretty darn fast. And that's not a sales plug. If it was, I would be honest. I tell you now, I'm just trying to get rid of stuff. No, this stuff is going to go quick, especially like Attack from Mars. They were sitting for a little bit. I think we're down to like one or so of those. Guardians, we got some new Guardians, and people suck those up. I think we have one of those. Turtles Premiums I ordered a lot of Turtles Premiums whenever they were first announced so we just got in inventory of that so if you're looking for a Turtles Premium that's a title that always goes fast Batman 66 we might still have a couple I guarantee you guys that thing is not going to be run all the time like some of these other heavy hitters Hot Wheels I think we still got Star Wars Comic Pro even the Premium Hot Damn the Premium finally got in stock my preferred model of that title and the original pin star wars and comic editions in stock at flipping out pinball what else avengers pros coming here soon jurassic parks are coming here soon you name it i'll give you an update as to what we have just message me at zach z-a-c-h at flip the letter n out pinball.com or call us at 812-457-9711 happy to receive text messages but sincerely in the holiday season uh the the ongoing support from every one of you listeners taking advantage of the flipping out stuff and the partnership between us and getting you machines has been extremely, extremely kind. And we appreciate that. And we need that kind of thing to keep going. So if you haven't yet, please give us the opportunity to earn your business. Nicole and I would very, very much appreciate that. We try to do as much as we can besides just selling you a machine. That's follow-up. I always tell people, if you want to know how well I did, look on Pinside. look on the internet, ask people who have dealt with us because that's going to be the best indication. And we try to provide stuff that other distros won't, whether it's media or streams or videos. I'm trying to put myself out there for you guys just so we can earn that business. So give us a shot. What's coming up next week? I think we finally are getting closer to a puppet palace. Thank God. Oh, I keep forgetting because I see messages and it sounds like it's always imminent. I've never had a puppet tease me to this degree. Yeah, these puppets are uncooperative. I think of Mr. Garrison. What puppet did he have? Remember that? Oh, I don't remember. I've seen that episode, but I don't remember. That was the early season one one. Yeah, that's probably why I've seen it, because I haven't seen South Park in years. We've got Puppet Pals coming up. We've got Chronicles coming up next week. Again? No, I was joking, because that one week you were like, holy crap. No, the Borg episode is really good. It was great. I recommend it. I love that one. I cannot wait. Spoiler alert. They end right as he was getting into the stern years, and I just really can't wait. Maybe more so than part two of Steve Ritchie's. I want to see where Borg, in my opinion, has shined, and that is the stern years. So that's coming up. We'll also have, let's see, we're not doing it for a final round. I bet we have just another pinball. We get another one of those. Yeah, that does seem about time. We need about time for that. Man, the plum last week was good with Marty Robbins. She is getting in her groove. Crystal over there. Nicely done, Crystal. A lot of fun stuff. So tune into that. But until fortnight? Yeah, fortnight. Until next fortnight. Doesn't feel as good. Hopefully you can tolerate me more every other week.
    76:12
    Before we close out, how was this episode? No yelling? It was good. I think it will be our most popular episode ever. I think it will be our least popular. Numbers don't lie. I only report the facts here. For Dennis Creasel, I am Zachariah Mini. Remember, when you're out there looking for pinballs, ask yourself, where is the jump ramp? And always practice safe pinball and... Screw you, you flippity flop paper stock! Up. So long, everybody.