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Ep 86 - How does pinball improve in 2020?

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 4m·analyzed·Jan 7, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

SWL Ep 86: 2020 expectations, Stranger Things review, TMNT/GNR rumors, Deep Root production signals.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill from Special When Lit Pinball Podcast discuss their expectations for pinball manufacturers in 2020, covering industry news from American Pinball, Jersey Jack, Deep Root, Spooky, and Stern. They analyze Stern's newly released Stranger Things pinball machine in detail, review Spooky's Rick and Morty game mechanics, and speculate about upcoming releases including rumors of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Guns N' Roses.

Key Claims

  • Stern's Stranger Things machine has 40-50 modes for home users

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell discussing the game's code depth with Brian Eddy's team (Lonnie and Mike Vinacore on code)

  • Spooky's Rick and Morty uses Mega Seeds as an alternative multiplier system where each seed is worth 5% of ball score

    high confidence · Dr. John (Bowen) Spooky Pinball update segment explaining the Mega Seeds mechanic

  • Jersey Jack is rumored to announce Guns N' Roses at Texas Pinball Festival in March

    medium confidence · Ken Rudberg Jersey Jack update citing rumors about announcement timing

  • Deep Root Pinball is planning a company reveal event on the Wednesday prior to Texas Pinball Festival

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell and Bill discussing Deep Root's planned reveal and logistics

  • Stern's next title is rumored to be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with John Borg and Zombie Yeti designing

    medium confidence · Craig Bobby Stern news correspondent speculation about TMNT or potential Led Zeppelin Quicksilver re-theme

  • Willy Wonka Collector's Edition has tight side blade art that can be damaged when raising/lowering

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg Jersey Jack update warning about blade art protectors

  • Deep Root posted a job opening for an engineering project manager, signaling production ramp-up before March launch

    medium confidence · Chris Chandler Deep Root update noting the timing and implications of the new position

  • Stranger Things includes seasons one and two of the show, but not season three

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell discussing the game's content with Bill, confirming seasons included

  • The Demogorgon shot on Stranger Things has inconsistent performance across machines and lacks the satisfying pinball moment present in Attack from Mars UFO or Medieval Madness castle

Notable Quotes

  • “When you activate the ramp that lowers down so that you can attempt to make the shots at the Demogorgon and you actually complete that by getting the ball in the Demogorgon's mouth... I don't get that level of satisfaction as a pinball moment. And for me, that's frustrating because of its prior two games, having that and this one not having it, it's disappointing.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~16:30 — Critical assessment of a major mechanical feature in Stranger Things, identifying a design gap compared to John Borg's previous classics

  • “Is it something that I would buy right now if it did not change? Yes, it is. Is it something that I would buy right now unchanged if it wasn't Stranger Things as the theme? I don't know.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~17:45 — Honest assessment showing how theme attachment influences purchase decision on an otherwise well-designed machine

  • “Mega Seeds will be available on the playfield. If you make a shot that is worth the Mega Seed, you add it to your collection, and the mega seed is worth 5% of your ball score.”

    Dr. John (Bowen) @ ~12:00 — Explanation of Spooky's innovative alternative to traditional multipliers in Rick and Morty

  • “If they plan on starting shipping games right after Texas Pinball Festival, they are gearing up and gearing up hard now.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~28:15 — Analysis of Deep Root's production timeline and job posting implications for March launch

  • “The big rumors all seem to point to a much-anticipated John Borg and Zombie Yeti tag team of, you guessed it, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is also rumored to be Stern's first entrance into the golden age of Internet connectivity.”

    Craig Bobby @ ~9:45 — Major rumor about Stern's next title and potential networking features

  • “I like that the video assets are there with the voice out, the voice, the call outs from the actors. And in many places, those are synced if that was an issue of concern for some of you.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~15:00 — Positive feedback on Stranger Things' video asset integration and voice acting quality

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBillpersonBrian EddypersonSteve BowenpersonJohn BorgpersonZombie YetipersonChris FranchipersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    code_update: Stranger Things at code .75 is substantially complete with 40-50 modes but hosts expect additional updates to address Demogorgon shot satisfaction and narrative cohesion

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'I really want to see how the code is going to tie everything together on Stranger Things' and discussion of code updates adding 'further polish'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Spooky Pinball's Rick and Morty uses Mega Seeds (5% progressive ball multiplier) instead of traditional playfield multipliers, representing fresh approach to progression mechanics

    high · Dr. John: 'mega seed is worth 5% of your ball score... 5% could be a lot... I don't want 20x multipliers'

  • ?

    product_concern: Stranger Things Demogorgon shot shows inconsistent performance across units; some machines have service issues requiring manual adjustment; lacks satisfying pinball moment compared to prior Borg designs

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'either the games aren't set up correctly or there's some type of service issue on some of these demogorgons' and detailed comparison to Attack from Mars UFO

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles rumored as Stern's next release with John Borg and Zombie Yeti; potential announcement at Texas Pinball Festival March 2020; speculation about Internet connectivity features

    medium · Craig Bobby: 'big rumors all seem to point to a much-anticipated John Borg and Zombie Yeti tag team... Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Guns N' Roses rumored as Jersey Jack Pinball's next title with potential announcement at Texas Pinball Festival March 2020

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.192

0:00
coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hi everyone welcome it's episode 86 of the special when lit pinball podcast i'm ken cromwell all right i'm bill what pinball and we've got a fun episode it's our first episode of 2020 so we're kicking off the year in some style and we're going to do something that we haven't done and that is First, we're going to cover some pinball news. Yep. And then we're going to go ahead and we're going to go manufacturer by manufacturer and just give some expectations or hopes that we would want to see accomplished or addressed in 2020 by each of these manufacturers. So we're not going to deep dive this. This is not going to be a super long episode. If you've been following the show, we tend to keep our shows under one hour. Today will not be any different. We do have Brian Eddy, lead game designer at Stern Pinball, who designs Stranger Things, coming in tonight to stream Stranger Things immediately after the podcast. So for those of you that are listening to this, you've already missed it. But that's okay because you can – You're already out on this. But that's okay. We've got something for you anyway. Right. That's it. But what we want you to do is go to FlippinOutPinball on Twitch. That's Flipp, letter N, out, pinball, all one word, on Twitch.tv. Search the channel. Follow it. And then you can see the video on demand of that. We'll upload it to YouTube. But I'm looking forward to seeing Brian again because last time we saw Brian, it was here in our original studio. But it was the first time Brian had ever been on a pinball podcast, and it was shortly after he was hired at Stern Pinball. And I'm assuming he was working on this game at the time, and we didn't know. Yep. He was teasing. We'll get some answers tonight on some of that stuff. Yeah, but remember, he was teasing Bill and Ted's when he was in here last time. He was. And now we know it's Stranger Things, so it'll be fun to talk to him. In any event, let's just jump into the pinball news. Let's do it. Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz.
1:57
Hey, this is Kaz with a quick American pinball update. While there is no major news this week, I did speak with programmer Joe Schober. He informed me that they are still working on a Houdini update and also an Oktoberfest update, along with working on pin number three that should be ready at Texas Pinball Festival. Some members of the team will be down there in Texas, and I'm looking forward to seeing the new pin when it's unveiled. For American Pinball, this is Brian Cosner. Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your special win-lit Jersey Jack update. Rumors continue to circulate about when Guns N' Roses will be announced, some saying as early as Texas Pinball Festival in March. Willy Wonka Collector's Edition unboxings continue to happen with a lot of happy customers. One thing to note is that it's been reported that the side blade art is very tight with the playfield, so when raising and lowering it, be very careful not to damage the inside blade art. You might want to look into some blade art protectors to help stop that damage from occurring. And Jersey Jack recently released a full owner's manual for Willy Wonka. This is applicable to the version 1.32 code. It has all the detailed information that you need to know about your Willy Wonka machine and is available for download on the Jersey Jack website. This has been your Jersey Jack update with Ken Rudberg. Chris Chandler here filing an interesting tidbit in the world of Deep Root. Given the holidays, there's not a lot to report on the Deep Root front. But we did notice a new job opening at Deep Root Tech for an engineering project manager position. The job requirements and responsibilities lists a mix of engineering, either mechanical or electrical, and proven project management experience. So you might be asking yourself, why is this important? Well, mainly because it signals they're truly beginning a production ramp up prior to their official launch in March. Does that mean Deep Root is only just now thinking about production? or do they have it quote-unquote on paper and are finally looking to make it more real? As with all things Deep Root, it seems we'll just have to wait and see. With your Deep Root update, this is Chris Chandler. Hello and welcome to this week's Spooky Pinball Update with more with Bowen on Rick and Morty. I asked you a little bit more about the gameplay features and some of the inserts that seem to be scattered around, especially the mega seeds. There's a feature in the game which is called the Mega Seeds. You may remember the Mega Seeds from the very first episode. Nobody knows exactly why Rick wants Mega Seeds, but he wants as many as possible, and he wants them crammed right up the butt, and he wants them now. Whenever you travel to a different dimension with an arc, and you can do that a lot of different times, Mega Seeds will be available on the playfield. If you make a shot that is worth the Mega Seed, you add it to your collection, and the mega seed is worth 5% of your ball score. So when you get to the end of the ball, it'll say, well, how many mega seeds have you got? Okay, seven. All right, each mega seed is worth this much. Bonus. 5% of your score could be a lot. It could be very low or it could be a very big number.

high confidence · Ken Cromwell's detailed critique of his 100-150 plays on Stranger Things Pro model at code .75

  • Chris Franchi is no longer with Stern Pinball

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell noting Franchi's absence from the sound team when discussing potential TMNT designer lineup

    • “Rick and Morty, if you have not seen the episodes and you're in on the pin or you plan on playing the pin or you want to see if the pin is going to be up your alley, watch the episodes.”

    Bill @ ~21:15 — Commentary on theme familiarity's impact on game appreciation, applicable to all licensed theme games

  • “So I think that Rick and Morty lends itself well to a great pinball theme. And you don't want to limit yourself to just like one season. So like Gilligan's Island, they limited that to the episode where the volcano was erupting and they had to calm the volcano down with a seltzer or whatever. And I think that's one reason why that game bombed.”

    Bill @ ~22:45 — Analysis of theme scope and narrative design in pinball, using Gilligan's Island as cautionary example

    • Jersey Jack Pinball
    company
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Stranger Thingsgame
    Rick and Mortygame
    Willy Wonkagame
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Lonnieperson
    Mike Vinacoreperson

    medium · Ken Rudberg: 'Rumors continue to circulate about when Guns N' Roses will be announced, some saying as early as Texas Pinball Festival in March'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Deep Root Pinball posting engineering project manager position signals production ramp-up ahead of March 2020 launch; timing raises questions about whether production planning was delayed

    medium · Chris Chandler and Ken Cromwell discussion: job posting is 'signal they're truly beginning a production ramp up prior to their official launch in March' but hosts question if this is too late given 60+ day timeline to TPF

  • ?

    event_signal: Deep Root Pinball planning Wednesday reveal/presentation in San Antonio before Texas Pinball Festival, requiring media to travel 5 hours from San Antonio to Frisco; creates logistics challenge for covering both events

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'at the conclusion of Wednesday, you've got to get yourself to Frisco. That's a five-hour drive to go from San Antonio to Frisco'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Chris Franchi, previously part of Stern Pinball sound design team, is no longer with Stern as of early 2020

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Chris Franchi is no longer with Stern. But if that team stayed together, you would expect John Borg to be with Dwight Sullivan again'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Stranger Things game could improve narrative cohesion for unfamiliar players; hosts discuss importance of theme familiarity to game appreciation and recommend watching source material

    medium · Ken Cromwell: 'I think for those that have seen Stranger Things this pin is going to make more sense' and Bill's recommendation to watch Rick and Morty episodes before playing

  • ?

    product_strategy: Ken Cromwell deciding between Pro and Premium Stranger Things models based on whether projector technology justifies premium price tier

    medium · Ken: 'If the projector, which is the highly touted piece of innovative tech... is something that is worth looking at and worth experiencing, then I'm in on a premium'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Ken Cromwell historically buys new-in-box only for themed games he's passionate about (Jurassic Park, Willy Wonka); theme attachment drives new-in-box purchase decision over secondary market savings

    high · Ken: 'I've only bought Jurassic Park and Willy Wonka brand new... I've only bought Jurassic Park and Willy Wonka brand new. Right. Dude, Willy Wonka, you've seen it as a kid'

  • ?

    product_concern: Willy Wonka Collector's Edition has tight side blade art requiring protective measures when raising/lowering to prevent interior damage

    high · Ken Rudberg: 'side blade art is very tight with the playfield, so when raising and lowering it, be very careful not to damage the inside blade art. You might want to look into some blade art protectors'

    • 5:17
    And the mega seeds you collect, you keep throughout the rest of the game. so if you collect a mega seed on ball one you get five percent of your score every turn at the end of your call so you ask about you ask about play field multipliers and that effectively is a play field multiplier but it's not it's not a high number it's five percent i don't want 20x i never want that but i want i do want the player to have a progression in a way that feels satisfying so that they can continue to feel like they're growing and more things are happening the more they proceed. So someone collecting five mega seeds, yeah, that's pretty good. Someone collecting 20 mega seeds, now that's 100%. Someone collecting 40 mega seeds.
    6:06
    But it is difficult to collect mega seeds. It's not easy to collect mega seeds. People are going to collect the maximum number of mega seeds is 99. And that's it for this week's update. Catch you next week. Stranger Things Part 1, and could it be Turtles in Texas time? Happy New Year everyone, Craig here again, your special and lit Stern News Correspondent. Well, with the holiday season now behind us and Stranger Things officially released, many pinheads took some of their free time to visit their local arcades, barcades, or their lucky friends' homes to try out this latest release from Stern. And while most that have been lucky enough to play one seem to be enjoying the new title, most concede that they are eager to see the Premium or LE editions, which will showcase Stern's newfangled playfield projector feature, seen prominently in the Stern trailer video as one of the game's major attractions. Additional code updates should also add further polish to the in-game experience to help take this from a good Stern title to a great one. And speaking of speculation, Stern fans are already musing on what Stern's next title could be and when it may be released. The big rumors all seem to point to a much-anticipated John Borg and Zombie Yeti tag team of, you guessed it, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is also rumored to be Stern's first entrance into the golden age of Internet connectivity. Ooh, how exciting. While the safe money seems to point to a Texas Pinball Festival release date of TMNT, don't be surprised if Stern has a few tricks up their sleeves and jumps ahead of its competitors by announcing something earlier. Will it be TMNT, or could it be that Led Zeppelin re-theme of Quicksilver? We shall wait and see. That's all for this week. For Special When Lit, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. So always good to hear from the correspondents. Let's touch base with Stranger Things now. So the game's been out for a little bit. There's been some feedback, some positive, some negative. You know, as myself, for this being a dream theme of mine, I'm trying to look at this game as unbiased as possible. Okay, but let's be honest, dude. How likely is that? I'm going to put the hooks to you here today. We've had one of those days, Ken. This is your dream theme. It is. You're looking at it right now. You've had a good amount of time to play it. I have. How do you feel about this? Well, let me say that when, and I think we talked about this on another episode, it's almost to the disadvantage of a pinball company to supply me or manufacture my dream theme because I feel like I'm going to pick it apart more so than I would if it was something that was not a dream theme of mine. I'd be a little bit more forgiving. So with Stranger Things, it's so exciting for me to see it into a game. My first impressions of the game is that it shoots really, really well. I like the layout. A lot of times we're hearing that people are looking at this as like a general fan layout, and they're expecting the shots to shoot like you would on Attack from Mars or Medieval Madness. I don't find that to be the case. Where there are shots in familiar spots, those shots don't lead to exit points that you're used to. And that makes it fun and it makes it fresh for me. I think right now the design is fresh for me, which I just said I do like the design. The audio on this game is incredible. I really, really like it. And from somebody that really appreciates the theme of Stranger Things, the actual theme, right now the pin at code .75 is really giving you a large dose of that, and I haven't gotten sick of it. I like it. I like that the video assets are there with the voice out, the voice, the call outs from the actors. And in many places, those are synced if that was an issue of concern for some of you. The light show for the Pro, we don't have the projector. And the Pro is the only game that we've played so far. So you're looking at decals in place of what you would normally see as like the projection material, the projector screen material or the white backing. We don't see that on this pen. Overall, I want to say I probably have about 100 to 150 plays on it. And overall, I'm really enjoying the game. there's a couple things that i would want to see addressed and i think because it's early in code that you will see those addressed the first and foremost is you've heard the demogorgon shot as being a frustrating experience for some either the games aren't set up correctly meaning leveled and pitched correctly yeah which happens a lot sure or there's just some type of a service issue on some of these demogorgons where you're going to have to go in and do a manual adjustment or i would assume stern if it turns out to be the case we'll issue some sort of a uh like a service kit update where you can go in and you can adjust your Demogorgon. The one that we have here that we're playing, we're fortunate because we don't have the issue with the Demogorgon. It's accepting shots when you hit it square, which is nice. My one thing that I would, and I'm going to suggest this to Brian if he hasn't heard it already when he comes in. The Demogorgon shot is supposed to be the shot that kind of calls you in. And if you look back at his prior games, Attack from Mars had that UFO, that ship that you would take down and you got a really good feeling after you had done that, a sense of accomplishment. You got audio and like on the LCD and a light show. I mean, it was just it was impressive. Same thing with Medieval Madness. You take down that castle. It breaks. It's very. Drawbridge comes down. Gate goes up. Right. It's very impressionable. You're like, wow, I want to do that again. When you activate the ramp that lowers down so that you can attempt to make the shots at the Demogorgon and you actually complete that by getting the ball in the Demogorgon's mouth, which is like a wide hole in the middle of like a petals. They almost look like you're familiar with. If you've seen the show, I don't get that level of satisfaction as a pinball moment. And for me, that's frustrating because because of its prior two games, having that and this one not having it, it's disappointing. But I do also realize that we are I mean, that's something that could be so early in code. Exactly. Exactly. So I think when that kind of gets figured out and it creates a pinball moment for me, I'll like the pin even more. Is it something that I would buy right now if it did not change? Yes, it is. Is it something that I would buy right now unchanged if it wasn't Stranger Things as the theme? I don't know. So take that for what it's worth. The game, just like any game, has a couple shortcomings. Again, a lot of it can be addressed. my main concern is the pinball moment with that Demogorgon and making sure that people that get this game have working Demogorgon shots. Oh, yeah. Well, dude, when you have a feature in a game that doesn't work, that sucks. But, I mean, the biggest reason why I'm picking your brain on this is because I've never had a dream theme in my mind that I was like, I can't wait to see this game, can't wait to see this game, and had that moment of either satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a theme. Right. There's not been one absolute dream theme that has come out while I've been waiting for pinball. Wizard of Oz was a cool one. I wouldn't say that would have been a dream theme, but that would have been a strong theme. So it's interesting to hear your take on it.
    13:09
    It's been fun to kind of look at it as somebody that's heavily vested in the theme or invested in the theme, but also trying to be impartial. And I think what's going to come down to me, because I will own the game, right? So it will either be the pro that we have here in the studio, or it'll be the premium because I'm just not normally in on an LE purchase from Stern. Yeah. I'm priced out of that tier. If the projector, which is the highly touted piece of innovative tech that Stern has introduced into that premium LE model is something that is worth looking at and worth experiencing, then I'm in on a premium. I'll own either. I think that you really should be and I want to try to figure out how I want to say this not because I'm trying to be safe but because I'm trying to articulate my thought I think for those that have seen Stranger Things this pin is going to make more sense for you because I was kind of putting myself in an outside perspective if I were to walk up to the game on location without ever had seen an episode of Stranger Things I don't know that I really know what's happening and I think when you get into a game and into a pin And you like for it to be cohesive and kind of tell you a story, especially when you're progressing through the story. That would be another thing that I'd be looking at code-wise that can be addressed is kind of set the tone or the narrative for the player that maybe isn't as familiar with the theme to kind of figure out what is going on and why you're doing it. Is there enough involved? And I haven't seen any of these yet. So I know I suck. There's people out there that are cursing me. Oh, Stranger Things. And that's fine. Yes, I have not seen Stranger Things. um is there enough in there that you could incorporate seasons two three and four if there is a fourth well they're season one and two in there right now okay uh season three is not in the game can you can you implement season three i mean i suppose you could update with some season three but much of what you're seeing on the play field in the design is based on season one and season two so i don't know that it would make sense it'd be like kind of adding seasons to game of thrones or something like that i mean i guess it's viable it just really kind of would depending on how you do that. I'm happy with seasons one and two. Season three was, I think for some, their favorite season. And season three for me was a fun season, but by no means was it my favorite season. It was season one. Okay. And I think I went on our show before saying if we just had this pin based on season one, I'd be happy. Now we're getting season one and season two, which is direct follow-up to season one. So I'm fine with it. So, yeah, I mean, again, it's a little bit of this. It's a little bit of that. Overall, I'm happy. I'm not disappointed. and I really want to see how the code is going to tie everything together on Stranger Things. Great answer. Make sense? Yeah. I'm happy that you have your dream theme. I'm happy that you aren't disappointed by it so far.
    15:49
    Yeah, just got to jump on it. Brian didn't let me down with the design. And I know with Lonnie and Brian and Mike Vinacore on code, the code right now is substantial enough to where you got enough to do to keep you busy And at no point in the game did I feel like things got overly repetitive And with them saying there 40 or 50 modes for the home user like that right up my alley So we'll see how that turns out. Let's get into Rick and Morty and Spooky Pinball. You heard Dr. John talking with Bo and Karens again, discussing how they've got an alternate to multipliers. And I think that's fun because you're collecting items throughout the game, which then add to your single ball multiplier. Yes. It's an interesting way to look at that. I like that they're taking fresh takes on these rules. You hear, you're just used to, you know, playful multipliers. Oh, yeah. Yes. You're, you know, two, four, six, eight, whatever. Exactly. So to have something a little bit different is fine with me. Now, have you had an opportunity to see a Rick and Morty episode yet or no? No. Okay. Sorry. No. It's okay. TV at the Web Household is not, our TV game is kind of weak at the moment. But I've seen the YouTube clips, and I can see how the theme would be more drawing. Initially, in all honesty, Rick and Morty calls me more than Stranger Things. Why is that, if you haven't seen either, but you're just going off first impression? The crude humor. And I did watch season one, episode one of Stranger Things, and I thought the music and stuff was cool. But the whole Demogorgon and all, I'm just not there because I don't understand it yet.
    17:18
    But yeah, I mean, Rick and Morty, I definitely see how that would call to me a little more. So I think that Rick and Morty and I've said this before, if you have not seen the episodes and you're in on the pin or you plan on playing the pin or you want to see if the pin is going to be up your alley, watch the episodes. They're 22 minutes long. You can stream three seasons and a few nights if you really knock them out. And it'll make you appreciate the title. I haven't flipped Rick and Morty yet, so I'm looking forward to doing that. But knowing that I have, you know, a knowledge bank of the characters, the seasons and what's happening in general, It excites me to be able to jump on the game because I'm familiar with it. Also, it could lead me to be a little bit more critical of how they implemented the seasons and the assets, too. But again, Rick and Morty is kind of so all over the place. There's not a whole story that needs to be told because in any specific episode, you could be telling two or three different stories with two or three different plot twists. And so I think it lends itself well to a great pinball theme. And you don't want to limit yourself to just like one season. So like Gilligan's Island, they limited that to the episode where the volcano was erupting and they had to calm the volcano down with a seltzer or whatever.
    18:31
    And I think that's one reason why that game bombed. It didn't bomb, but I think it could have been more successful. Wait, what game are you talking about? Gilligan's Island. Yes, okay. The main plot of the game is based off one show of that whole series. The pin is so uninspiring to me that I forgot what you were speaking of as you brought it up a minute prior. You know what?
    18:52
    I tried to like it, man. I used to watch it as a kid, but based off one episode, I couldn't. And honestly, I mean, here's the thing. Theme is a big calling to me on whether or not I buy a game initially. Yeah. But there's games now that I am buying or I have bought, and I didn't care about the theme just because of how they shot.
    19:12
    Fair enough. Have you bought a new in-box game recently off of a theme that you weren't familiar with, though? because the new in-box purchase is going to be the most out-of-pocket for the game, arguably, that you're going to spend, because you can go ahead and you can wait for that to get on the second-hand market and not feel that new in-box hit that you hear everybody speak of, including myself. We've all go through it. But when you want something, you want something. And sometimes just that experience makes you feel good. So have you bought a new in-box pin with a theme that you weren't familiar with? No, because I've only bought Jurassic Park and Willy Wonka brand new. Right. Dude, Willy Wonka, you've seen it as a kid. You've seen, you know, we watched it again before I even pulled the trigger on it. So, yeah. Well, you heard the rumors, too, of Stern's next release potentially being Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And you heard about the release might be a Zombie Yeti, John Borg team up. I remember when you think about it, a year ago, almost to the day, we were recording Making of the Monsters. And in studio with us for that podcast, we had John Borg and we had Dwight Sullivan. And then on the phone, we had Jerry Thompson and we had Chris Franchi. Now, Chris Franchi is no longer with Stern. But if that team stayed together, you would expect John Borg to be with Dwight Sullivan again. OK, you would expect Chris Franchi there, but he's not. So Zombie Yeti kind of takes over that team. And then Jerry Thompson, who was not on the sound package for Stranger Things, I imagine is up next. So all those kind of seem like that would make sense to have that team reassembled. Right. Timeline-wise, it would make sense. It would make sense. You're a year to the date. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not getting announced today. No. But, I mean, CES last year, the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas, this year at Stranger Things, last year it was Munsters. Yes. And then you had Gary Stern dressed up as Grandpa Munster. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, they were all dressed up. But, I mean, think about that. It was a year ago. Does it seem like a year has gone by since Munsters was out? It seems almost longer since Munsters came out. Seems way longer. Doesn't it? I mean, there's so many games that are coming out so frequently. The time that's passed seems like it's more. Yes, absolutely. I look forward to it. Okay, so what are your feelings on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? That's a good question because I was going to ask you if Jersey Jack Pinball, their next rumored release, is Guns N' Roses. What calls to you more as a theme, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Guns N' Roses? For me, it's Guns N' Roses. I never got into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so I can't get excited about it based on theme, but I can get excited about it based on the team that's together doing that game. And honestly, I agree with you. Guns N' Roses definitely calls to me more. I was into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. There's a gap of about four years between us, I think. So, I mean, that might have literally just been the gap of Turtles or He-Man. Yeah, my younger brothers were really into Turtles. I was in the Masters of the Universe. That's just how it played out. So Turtles, I don't know if it necessarily calls to me. Not like Jurassic Park or some of these other titles that I've purchased.
    22:11
    But yeah, I mean, dude, it could flow like Jurassic Park and be innovative, and dude, I'd probably be all in. Yeah, yeah. So we have to wait and see what happens. There's going to be releases. But I like Jersey Jack stuff too. So, you know, dude, maybe next year it's buying Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Guns N' Roses, and they're up for Game of the Year. We heard Chris Chandler talking about Deep Root, a new position that's been created. He's hinting that that position that's been created means that they are now kind of putting it into another gear to get ready to get pinball machines released. Do you have any thoughts on that? I don't think that that's necessarily the case. Dude, we're 60 days away from TPF, 60-plus days roughly, maybe 70 and some change. And TPF is Texas Pinball Festival, which is in Frisco, Texas. San Antonio, Texas is the home of Deep Root Pinball, and they've got to release a kind of a company reveal that will be taking place the Wednesday prior to Texas Pinball Festival. Yes. So I think that, dude, if they're gearing up now, it'd be a little late.
    23:19
    Yeah. So, dude, parts needed to be ordered and stuff would be needed to be submitted. And if they're not already. Maybe they have somebody in that position and they're looking for additional help. Yes, that would make sense. But I'm sure that if they plan on starting shipping games right after Texas Pinball Festival, they are gearing up and gearing up hard now. I was hoping to get down to – TPF is still up in the air for me, man. Like every day I wake up, I'm like, I'm going. The next day I'm like, nah, I just can't make it work.
    23:49
    I'm excited to get down there because I like TPF. It's a really fun show. We had a great time. It's warm. Right. I know. In Chicago at the end of March, Frisco, Texas is a beautiful place to be. I'm excited to get down to see the Twippies. I had a really good time with that last year. Last year I was also hoping to see Deep Root's Five Days of Deep Root, the reveal of that fifth day. And this year Deep Root is here saying, hey, you may or may not qualify to come in, you know, the media in general to kind of view this. I haven't heard back about media credentials. and we are in January, which is fine, but I just found out that San Antonio, okay, now going into the CPF, you would have to, normally you'd get in on Thursday or Friday, you'd fly into Dallas-Fort Worth. Yes. And it's like, what, 30 minutes maybe to get into Frisco. When you were driving, it was about six minutes. In rush hour traffic, nonetheless. In rush hour traffic. Yes.
    24:43
    But now, like, you have to change your itinerary. One, you've got to come in days earlier because you're probably flying in Tuesday because the day at Deep Root starts Wednesday. You're flying into San Antonio. You go through a whole day presentation in San Antonio, which sounds like a great time. But then at the conclusion of Wednesday, you've got to get yourself to Frisco. That's a five-hour drive to go from San Antonio to Frisco. Yeah, I don't know if I'd be doing the five-hour drive, dude, at that point. If we were to do something like that, dude, I think we'd just take a puddle jumper, man. I would never, ever, ever do that. I thought you were going to say like a party bus and try to get some more media on board and just party bus it for five hours. I could do that, too. Right, right. So if anyone's going to TPF and, you know, you're Pinball Media and you want to do a party bus from – actually, we should do that from TPF to Deep Root and then back, you know. Well, Deep Root to TPF. Yeah. Just party bus it up. Dude, yeah, I'll drive. Oh, gosh. I don't know. We'll knock this out, man. Yeah. That could be a great time. That would be a sobering experience for those that are on the party bus. No, man. They'd be like, listen, I've got to be ripped to be taking this ride. You're a very good driver. You're just a lot more aggressive than what I'm used to. But you're safe, but at no point did I feel safe. But I knew I was in good hands.
    25:57
    It's like I don't even know how to figure it out. Okay, all right. So I have to explain the story. All right, so we're in traffic. We're doing about 55 miles an hour in the left lane. This is coming from the airport in Dallas-Fort Worth driving in the Crystal, Texas. Now, mind you, Bill's on roads he's never driven in in his whole entire life. In a car that I've never driven in. In a car that he's never driven in his whole entire life. Probably painted that picture. Right. Dude, it was a Chevy Impala. It's not like we were driving a Ferrari F40 or something crazy. Right. But nonetheless, so the traffic in the left lane starts coming to a halt, but the right lane is still ripping at a good 55 miles an hour. So there's somebody kind of on my bumper. So Ken just sees red lights, and I'm like, I don't see red lights. I see a big old gas pedal, man. We've got to cut this dude off and get over four lanes. It was concerning. And we did, and we were. Like you did that about 25, 30 times, though. The thing that concerned me is when you were looking behind your shoulder, those lights weren't red, I didn't think, prior, but they turned red, those brake lights ahead of us, while you're looking behind it, as you're speeding. I don't know how it worked out. But you're looking at the car behind, in front of us. I was looking at everything. I was looking at the cars further ahead of him. No, no, I was looking at the cars further ahead of him. I got you. It's fine. Okay. You were cars ahead. Absolutely, dude. I was a car to tell you. Yeah, you can't look at just a car in front of you. That's true. That's a bad thing to do. You have to utilize your IPDE process. You have to identify, predict, decide, and execute. That's what I learned at Driver Ed many, many moons ago. They probably got rid of that at a bad time. But yeah, so I don't know. So anyways, it's like, so now like a part of the pool for me was to visit Deep Root. I still don't even know if I'm welcome down there yet. And at that point, that's fine. I'm hoping that I could get some type of a pass to see what's going on at TPF then at that point. But it's like now I'm like, I don't even know if I really want to get down to TPF and do this this year. Because the week after TPF is MGC, and that's out here in the Milwaukee area. And I told myself last year, I want to go to MGC because I've not been. And there's no excuse. It's less than two hours from our house. And that's supposed to be a great show. Dan Lucin and everybody do a great job on that show. I've always heard really good feedback. I know Ryan Kuyper is a big supporter of that show. I kind of want to really do that. And to know that it's so close is very appealing to me as well. Yeah, I agree with you. I hate flying. I just don't like anything about flying. You were in such a bad mood until those wheels hit the ground and we were in Texas. Oh, man, it's just everything about flying. It stresses me out. It's the drive to the airport. It's going through security. It's boarding the plane. It's waiting for it to go off without a delay. It's getting up in the air. The man with the rubber glove. And then I feel like I'm confined. I get claustrophobic. I start going into mini panic attack mode. I'm like, I can't get out of here. Then I land, and I'm so happy. But then the whole duration of my stay, I'm thinking, oh, man, I've got to do that all again coming home. But at MGC, I can just drive there, sit in a hotel for three or four days, and drive back. Dude, you wouldn't sit in a hotel for three or four. Dude, there's no way you'd sit there for three or four days being two hours from home. Oh, are you kidding me? I stayed at Expo, which was 45 minutes from our house for like four days. I never came back. I just stayed at the hotel. But you had to stay there. I guess. I don't know. You have a lot of responsibilities at Expo, though. So, again, I'll have regrets because I won't be able to hang out with so many people that I know will be at TPF, and I won't be able to see the Twippies. I really want to meet Ed Vanderveen. I've never met Ed before. We've had some brief chats online via Messenger, and I would like to see him. I'd like to see everybody that we saw last year. I'd like to meet new people. But even if we went to TPF, dude, even if we didn't get an invite, I could see us taking that five-hour car ride with some lawn chairs and a cooler or a beer, dude, and tailgating in the parking lot of Deeper. And I'm saying, what the hell are you guys doing? We weren't invited. We're just crashing, man. Tailgating at Deeper. You want to let us in? Great. But if not, we're just going to take some selfies out in front of this joint. Yeah. So I guess everything's still up in the air. I'm 50-50. And I have to make flight reservations and hotel reservations here by middle of January. So I'm giving myself to January 15th, and if I have not convinced myself that I'm 100% on board with going, I'm just going to skip the year and I'm going to hit MGC because I can't do both. I can't go to TPF, come home, and then the next weekend tell my wife and kids and family that, hey, I got to go to a pinball show. It just doesn't even make sense.
    30:24
    Anyways, we talked about this in the beginning of the show, and we wanted to kind of discuss, not make predictions or anything like that for 2020. But I definitely wanted to kind of bounce some ideas back and forth on what we would expect or what we would hope that could be addressed or changed by each of the manufacturers going forward. And then maybe at the end of that, just talk about what we'd like to see in 2020 for changes or to be addressed in pinball in general. And we can do this in no particular order. We're talking about Deep Root now. Why don't we start with Deep Root? And that's Robert Mueller and company over there. Now, we know that they really haven't manufactured anything as of yet that's available for purchase by consumers, but we have seen the Raza prototype.
    31:10
    Is there anything that you'd like to see out of Deep Root in 2020? All right, so I have two. I want to see Raza, and I would like to see Magic Girl, even though I don't think that's possible. I'd like to see how many pins they bring to market, but I'm hoping that they bring a healthy amount. Dude, they've taken this time to really gather how they're going to do this, get a good distributorship going. or, you know, distribution model going on, how they're going to get people their games. And hopefully we have another great pinball company. I'm looking forward to some of the stuff that's rumored that they're going to be doing. I agree. I would like to see. I'm kind of getting the feeling, and maybe this is I'm way off base, but I'm kind of getting a feeling that Raza is kind of their test pin for themselves to kind of establish that distribution model to try to establish their quality control to try to establish their manufacturing and how that going to work Whereas they may not it might not be as high risk if there are some things that slip through the cracks on Rasa It's not that they're not paying full attention to the game, but I think that we see things that will be more complex or maybe more important towards the progression of the company following Rasa. So what I would like to see is I'd like to see them use Rasa to try to streamline their complete manufacturing company, prowess, so to speak. And then before the end of the year, I'd like for them to kind of take what feedback they've received and I want to see them release one more game, but I want it to be something that we have not expected. I don't know what title that would be, but I want to see something that's going to really, really wow us. And in all fairness, Raza may end up wowing all of us by the time that we see it, because a lot of the innovation was not in the prototype. but I'd like to see two games released this year by Deep Root, and by that second title, I'd like to see them iron out a lot of the kinks that they've been critical on from other companies. I want to see them do it.
    33:09
    You know what? I agree with you. Dude, in all honesty, even if it wasn't Magic Girl this year, I would love to see the rumored 80s pin that they're working on. Yeah, absolutely. It'd be fun to be a fly on the wall over there at Deep Root. Absolutely. No doubt. Let's go to Spooky Pinball. Now, you've got Chuck Emery and family over there running Spooky. Just recently, they've released Rick and Morty. Yes. And 750 of those units sold out in about four hours. What would you like to see in 2020 with Chuck and company over at Spooky? Okay, this is my biggest gripe with them. I would love to see them be able to start producing 750 games in a year. Wow. And I know, and listen, if that's not possible, that's not possible because they're doing what they can. and they're not going to make promises that they're not going to be able to keep, and they're keeping it within reason of what they are able to do. That said, I'd love to see them be able to produce Rick and Morty one year, one run, on to the next game next year. I say wow not because I don't think that that's attainable and not that I don't think that that's an unfair expectation. I say wow because that's the exact same thing that I wrote down when I was thinking about Spooky Pinball. I mean, identically. and it is to either increase staff or figure out the line where when you release a game you can knock out in 12 months your run and if you're going to increase that run because this is the thought process behind this it's if i'm if i'm in on a game and those games sold out in four hours if i'm at the end of the line i'm let's say let's say i'm 750 i have to wait a year and a half to get the game that i'm waiting for now for some that's not an issue for me it's it's a huge point of contention because I like to have that gratification knowing that I bought something then it's coming and not that I'm waiting a year and a half I've got that 90 day window where where I start losing interest because everybody else has something and that plays into it for me too I like some exclusivity for my experience I think it would do them well if they were able to get the run done in 12 months because then again you're on to another game too uh the other thing that I'd like to see and you know I'm happy to see Scott in a second game and I'm happy to see it matched with the theme that he has with Rick and Morty. But, I mean, Charlie evolved his designing abilities with Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle, and that's been a pretty well-received game as far as layout. Yes. I want to see Charlie come in with another game, and I'd like to see Chuck and Bug together maybe collaborate on a game for the next release. We're not going to see it in 2020, so that's not really fair for me to ask for that this year. Maybe for next year. We're just giving you expectations that we'd love to see. And I think with what we said, we're not out of line.
    35:50
    They're doing good things, and they've really grown as a company, and we appreciate what they've done. We just want to see them push even further along if they can. And I know it's not a priority necessarily for them to grow quickly or to grow at all at this point. I mean, Chuck said that. But to kind of release a game and then have to wait a year and a half, just for me seems like it's long. And I'm really curious to see how those that are at the end of the line for this Rick and Morty will still want to stay in on their initial investment or if they're going to be looking to buy secondhand on the used market because there will be Rick and Mortys that will be for sale within the next 18 months. Yeah, but a lot of people are going to stay in because they're not going to want to take that $1,500 hit or whatever it was. Well, then at that point, you have the option of trying to sell your spot or your position. When you're number 683 and they're game 500 and you've just kind of had it, I mean, I'm in the mid threes, right? So it's hard for me to figure out. I'm expecting September, October, maybe as kind of a guesstimate. Normally, that would be so very long for me to wait. I would have no interest. But because I've become so interested in Rick and Morty as a theme and, you know, I'm excited to support something that Scott's done as that second pin. I don't mind waiting, but I think if I had to wait 18 months, I don't I would probably wait to buy use. But I think I'm just at that cusp where I'll extend my wait time. So we'll see what happens in spooky Chicago gaming. company recently they've announced that they're releasing the medieval madness royal edition which has all the bells and whistles including the topper the upgraded audio the extra large dmd with new hd animations what do you like to see or what would you like to see out of chicago gaming company or what are your expectations for them in 2020 i would hopefully like to see their next title um i i think that you know they're kind of a an anomaly i mean they're redoing old games but they're not just you know slapping a you know a set of stickers on an old play field and calling it good i mean they really go through that game they do the animations over on the excel screen they bring these toppers to life that were never even fathomed back in the day or were cut out just because of sheer cost. Right. I mean, talk about being able to take an old game and breathe new life into it without even doing much to the code, per se. Yeah. So, I mean, everything that they've done so far, dude, I really appreciate, and I look forward to seeing their next game, if it is the rumored Cactus game, as well as the next game that they're doing that might not be an old game. Okay, so that's where I'm kind of going. What I would like to see in 2020 from Chicago Game Company is I'd like to see something fresh and original from them. And if the next release is Cactus Canyon, great. Cactus Canyon looks like a fun game. I've never played a Cactus Canyon, so it will be fun and exciting for me to be like a new pinball machine for me to see and to play. But I want to see something that's original from them, whether it's an original theme or a licensed theme. I want to see a new game, something that's not a remake. The other thing that I'd like to see is I'd like to see – and I know a lot of this is beyond their control, but it's speeding up the process in which these games are getting out. It seems like there's always a delay, a mysterious delay that hits Chicago Gaming Company where you feel like you're just on the cusp of the release, and Monster Bash was plagued with this, which was unbelievable. It just gets frustrating, and you start getting down, not on the company, but you're down on the fact that you're excited about something that seems like it's not going to be revealed. And I'm hoping that they can cut down on delays. I don't know how that works, but that would be my wish. But they always deliver, though. It might take longer. But they always deliver, dude, and it's always an awesome product. I'd like to see them for 2020 get a game out, whether it's – if it's Cactus Canyon, I want to see it out through the end of the year, and then I want them to be able to get the original theme out. The original theme out, but I want to see one release per year from CGC. Yeah, that makes sense. Every year I want to see a new release. Cactus Canyon is cool to me because they didn't make a whole lot of them, and it gives people that would never have a chance to play that game that experience. People have probably played Medieval Madness. I mean, dude, there's still even some en route. Cactus Canyon is, you know, another one of those real hard games to find. So being able to put that on location for people to play again would just be awesome. Their original theme, if, you know, all things come true, I am so looking forward to an original theme from them. Yeah, me too. The thing with Chicago Gaming Company is they're not just a pinball company. They deal in other amusement devices and arcade games and whatnot. So pinball is not their only stake in the game. And, you know, I don't know what the profit margins are, but I would say arguably it might be their least profitable thing that they're doing over there at CGC, but they still get the games out. But let's increase the cadence in which these games are getting out. Let's get one a year. And if this 2020 is cactus candy complete, great. Let's see next year. Let's see the original title come out and maybe back to remakes. Remakes maybe alternate every year. American Pinball. We hear the rumors that their next theme is Hot Wheels, and that's not been confirmed or denied by American Pinball. But we've kind of seen that this company is close and we know a lot of the people there. We've kind of seen this company grow up in front of our eyes with two releases, right? You've got Houdini and Oktoberfest. Correct. What do you want to see out of American Pinball in 2020? So I have a little list here on this one. So do I. It's like, is that a good or a bad thing for American Pinball? Well, it's good, man, because these are all things that I think would improve their business. Exactly. And maybe they're gearing up for this. We don't know. But I would love to see them hire a second designer. Wow, okay.
    41:41
    Me too. Go ahead. I have it here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And that's not anything against Balser. No, listen, I have two Balser games. I can't get crucified for that one. No, no. I like Joe's games.
    41:59
    Just to increase the frequency in which we get games from them. Mm-hmm. You know, I think that they kind of get plagued by that and bogged down. You know, here, they have a new facility with two lines, and it's sitting idle right now. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, unless they're still ripping... Oktoberfest. Oktoberfest, which I don't know if they are or they aren't. I don't know either. But even... I would assume no. Even... Okay, let's just assume, yeah, dude, there is enough drive going that they're still selling Oktoberfests. They set it up that they still have a second line there to be able to run more stuff. Well, we heard Nermal when he was in before, and he's the former sales and marketing manager over there, saying that that additional line is set up so that they could do contract manufacturing. They could take on homebrew pens, or they could manufacture for other companies. So, I mean, it's there if they implement it, as he's spoken before. Now, Dan has since kind of walked into that position. Nermal's gone over to the mother company side. He's not in the pinball division anymore. But, yeah, I think some fresh staff in API I think would be great for everybody involved to take some pressure off and then to kind of split up what we're expecting from the same team every single time. I think it would be beneficial. Yeah. Yeah, me too. And more than one game a year or every other year. Great. Okay. What else you got? All right. So where do you want to go next? Are you still with American Pinball or no? No, no, no. My list is done for American. So what did I put down that you did? No. Okay. So I want to see them lock down a theme that is going, and I don't know if it's Hot Wheels or not, but I want to see them lock down a theme that's going to be widely accepted by everybody in pinball. I don't know if Hot Wheels is the theme or not. And if that's the theme that's coming, great. Let's see how they implement it. But let's see some powerhouse themes coming out of American Pinball because I enjoy the build quality of the machines that they do. I want to see, and this probably goes back into staffing, I want to see an effort to be made to really concentrate on getting animations and art packages where they need to be in pinball. Because we see so much of that now, especially in the art.
    43:58
    People looking at that as kind of a major factor when considering if a game is worth the money or something that they'd like to collect or have in their home. There are pieces of furniture, man, so they better be pretty. Yeah, yeah. You know? Absolutely. My other thing was, yeah, let's get that second line for contract manufacturing because if pinball isn't the cash cow that they had hoped right now and now they're going into redemption machines maybe to reciprocate some of those costs or just to kind of diversify, that's great. But let's get back into pinball and let's see what needs to be done because I don't want to see pinball go away in American pinball. And I'm not saying that I've heard that it is, but it's just when you see a change in direction to other games, that can only benefit them. And I'm hoping that they're able to kind of figure it out on the pinball side. Because, listen, you can't make 500, 600 games or 300, 400 games on a release. You need to be trending in the right direction on every game, on every release, especially your first three games. You can't go Houdini, which was decent, and then Oktoberfest, which maybe wasn't what they were hoping, and then go game number three, which wasn't performing as well as Oktoberfest. I mean, that's a nightmare situation. But you know what, though? With Hot Wheels, I see both sides of the fence of this. I see it not being the dream team that people want. I see it being, you know, maybe not drawing the attention of the average collector that's going after, like, Stranger Things or Elvira or stuff like that. But what I do see is it might being able to draw a younger crowd in, you know, home use only environments with young kids. You know, orange ramps in there and the ball doing crazy stuff. accelerator coils that are on similar things like Getaway, you know, where it spins the ball around and does some crazy crap, and it's just the coolest thing ever. It might be a fun game on location, too, for just people to, maybe not to own it, but to be able to walk up and throw a couple bucks on it when they're on, you know, when they're walking next to the game or just notice, hey, that's Hot Wheels. It could be, and you have to, I mean, there's a fine line there. There's a fine line between Corky and Kooky, and I want to throw 10 bucks in it, and Corky and Kooky, and I want to have this at my house. Well, I mean, if you walk up to Hot Wheels and right next to Hot Wheels was an Oktoberfest, I would assume that probably more people would gravitate towards Hot Wheels just because it's more of a recognizable, identifiable theme than Oktoberfest is. So interesting. All right, Jersey Jack Pinball. We are waiting on their next release. And in 2020, we're going to see at least one game. I know Jack had talked about in the past that you would see a couple games released last year. That didn't work out, but that's okay. You know, they've got Willy Wonka figured out, and those games are going out as we discuss this. What do you want to see in 2020 from Jersey Jack? I would like to see two games. Me too. In one year. I'd like to see the shipping get sped up a little bit from when we see the game. Not much, you know. I mean, dude, they hit it down to 90 days, I think, last time, which was acceptable. Right.
    46:45
    And the other thing that I'd really like to see is on, like, collector editions and even LEs, changes in code to really separate them from their standards. It's interesting that you say that because when I think of Jersey Jack pinball and they've got their collector editions, their LEs, and then their standards, right? Collector, yes, standards. Standard editions. And when I think of JJP and I think of the collector edition, I think of all the manufacturers, you're getting the most out of an upper tier pin out of a Jersey Jack collector's edition. but let's make sure that that upper tier is worth the dollars that are being asked. And when you talk about something as basic as, and it's not basic, but adding some little bit of code in there, I think would be pretty awesome. I would like to see a topper that is not only offered as a value or as a benefit of that collector's edition, but, all right, so let's take that topper and let's make it look like I want to get the topper. I don't necessarily want to see a piece of plastic illuminated. I want to see something that interacts with the game, something that's 3D, something in motion, something that changes state, something like that. Even if it was just a sculpture like Medieval Madness with Gene Wilder and Oompa Loompas on there, dude, that would still be outstanding. No and I can agree with you 100 So I just want to see that I also want to see them decrease the amount of limited editions that they selling I think when you say this is a limited edition and we only making like 1 or 2 I mean that like 5,000 is not limited? That's a lot of limited editions. So let's focus on the collector's edition being ultra-rare. Let's limit those limited editions, and then let's just hammer out a bunch of standards and then maybe allow people to purchase upgrades where they can get close to an LE without actually matching an LE. Sell accessories, make up the difference on there. But I just don't see the effort. I don't see the benefit of being an LE buyer if you're looking at rarity or scarcity with Jersey Jack Pinball. And if you're going to have – You're buying it for – but, dude, it's just like buying a premium from Stern. You're buying it for the features without the cost of going all in on the LE. Then change it. Change it to like a Platinum Edition. Don't say limited because when I think limited and I think of that number, It just seems a little excessive to me. So maybe it's just a play on words. Maybe they changed the structure of how these tiers are labeled. Yeah. Because the collector edition is the limited edition. Listen, we were watching Big Bang Theory last night, and Sheldon bought a limited edition toy. And he's like, there's only 5,000 of these bad boys in the world. And, of course, in my head I'm laughing as he buys a $1,000 toy or whatever it was. But, yeah, I get what you're saying. Right. I mean, just the wording or verbiage could be a little different. We're only going to make X amount of this version with these features, and after that you have to step up to the collector's edition. Absolutely, absolutely. Stern Pinball.
    49:34
    Stern is the mothership of pinball. They seem to be churning out the hits on an every-other-month basis. There's something that's new that's released by Stern. But what do you want to see from Stern in 2020, Bill? I would like to see them integrate the projector more. Now they've got a little time under their belt. Oh, so you're liking the projector, huh? I think there's things that they could do with it. I think of like Pinball 2000 and the stories that we've heard of like George Gomez and Pat Lawler working on these games, and they were really getting into their strides with being able to utilize them great with dark areas, light areas, and that's when Pinball, you know, Williams shut it down. Okay. So I'd like to see where this goes with the projector. I think there's value that could be enhanced with this feature. So I'd like to see that utilized more. I'm curious to see where it goes. Maybe it's just great on Stranger Things and it's a total flop.
    50:27
    But nonetheless, I'm curious to really see where it's going. Number two, I would love to see on your LEs, those come with a topper. Yeah, I agree. You've got to have a topper that comes with the LE. I would like to see that. I know that that might be cost prohibitive, but I'd like to see that.
    50:44
    How about get a topper out within 90 days of a pin release would be awesome. Okay, but sometimes things happen. I know. Okay. All right. And then the other thing I'd really like to see is, and I'm going to kind of hold this to stern, and JJP is just seeing, you know, LE games or even collectors, you know, Elvira, they offer different coding inside of it. You know, a couple extra modes, change the wording or something. Okay. Just a little more value there. You had the custom call-outs with Batman 66. That was a nice touch. Yeah. They could have done something like that with Elvira with the signature editions. That would have been fun, too. Tron had Daft Punk in it. You know, just a couple of things just to make it just a little different. I got you. I think what I want to see from Stern, and it's funny because we're on the same page with a lot of this, Bill. I wrote down one thing, and it was to continue to innovate to offset your price increases because we see the prices increasing regularly. And I don't necessarily anticipate the prices that go down, and I don't expect them to maintain price for years and years and years. So I anticipate the price increase, but let's see the innovation there as well when we get into the projector or projection mapping or whatever. I don't know if Stranger Things is like a beta test for this to see how it goes. I would assume not. I assume that they've done their testing. But, yeah, if you're going to be asking for more money, let us see some more changes and some additions, something that we can start counting on in pinball machines and whether that's going to be – online connectivity, to me, it doesn't make me want to pay more for a game. That's a feature that should be implemented into every machine. It's just a piece of software. Yeah. Right. So let's see the innovation. I never want to look at a game and look down on it and ask, where is the rest of it? I don't want to see that. I want to see packed games. I want to see – because this thing with Stern, right?
    52:41
    For me, they're the most approachable games of all the company manufacturers. I can step up to a Stern and start having fun pretty quick and kind of get an idea of what I'm supposed to do. Yes. But I also realize that there are manufacturers that seem like they'll offer a little bit more or dangle more of a carrot when it comes to like little extras on their games. So I'd like to see if they charge more. Right. I'd like to see Stern try to figure out a comfortable balance where we get a little bit more because we've increasingly have paid more. So let's just see both increasing innovation and prices at the same time. And I think we have seen more. I mean, they brought Charles Ernst on. Chuck. Our buddy Chuck. And the animations and stuff that that department has done have been wild. Agreed. And it's only getting crazier. So, I mean, some of these price increases that have gone up, I mean, I can definitely see value where they've added the employees to make these things even better. So I think I don't mind paying the extra when you see these innovations and these animations and stuff and you see these games really come to life. And Jurassic Park is one for me. It's not crazy with the amount of stuff that's on it. It's just extremely well laid out. And the animations and how they did it without a lot of those rights, I mean, that's awesome. Yeah. The fun factors there, again, I like that they're using this projector. I have not seen it in person. It might not be what I expect it to be, but I think in proper lighting situation, I play in a dark room. It really intrigues me. I think it would be fine. So we'll see. How about pinball in general, Bill? Do you have anything that you'd like to see? And I'm sure you have a lot, but do you have anything that's on the tip of your tongue that you'd like to see addressed or maybe implemented in 2020? Some of these people that are gouging on price, you know, $4,500 lethal weapon threes.
    54:35
    You know, I'd like them to catch kind of a clue. And I've seen a little bit of that over the weekend, and I was just shaking my head. And it's hard because I don't want to send out hate mail and be the price, please. I hear you. I understand. You know, a little bit of that. Yeah, I'd really like to see, too, and I have kind of seen this lately, is a lot of the pinball community has gotten closer on certain fronts, especially with the 24-hour stream. And, you know, people that we weren't necessarily close with have reached out, which has been a great thing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I just like to see everyone be a little more cohesive and kind and not as standoffish, I guess. But, I mean, we really haven't dealt with a lot of that per se, but, you know, just more believing in the better in people is a better way of saying it. I get it. So I think that would be about it, though, Ken.
    55:24
    I wrote down a couple of things just because, like, I was brainstorming today, and a lot of this we addressed. Like, I think that all companies should try to ship their games within 90 days of a release or of a reveal. That's like a pet peeve of mine when it goes longer. If you're not prepared to ship that game within three months, you probably should not have revealed it, and you're probably doing yourself a disservice by doing so. That's just the way that I look at it. I want to see better GI in pinball machines. It seems like the more advanced these games are getting or the newer releases, they're darker, right? So I don't know if they're just depending on third parties to kind of solve that illumination issue, but there's some games that come out where you're thinking to yourself, Did anybody play this in a dark room? And all the companies are guilty of this. Like, I want to see some better GI in pinball machines. I want to see a conclusion for clear-code issues on games, and whether that's solidifying the clear-code solution so that we're not getting playfields that are getting wrecked, or if it's changing the whole process of what a playfield consists of. Or even just adding a playfield protector right at the factory for a hundred-buck option. If it's a polycarbonate issue, I don't know what it is. But I'm tired of talking about clear coat issues. I don't want to have to see it anymore. Let's figure it out. It's 2020. We could put a man on a moon. We can send a satellite outside of the solar system, but we can't figure out a pinball clear coat. It doesn't make any sense. Come on. Let's go. Did you see the one picture of the dimpled Stranger Things play field? Oh, sure. It's just dimples. The one here is really dimpled. Have you seen this one? It's just dimpled. I haven't looked at this one, but I saw the other one, and I was like. It just is what it is. Dimples don't bother me as much as the chipping and the pulling and that sort of thing. But again, I think the dimpling can be addressed. Pulling doesn't bother me as much as dimpling. Pulling doesn't bother me as much, but I just fear that it leads to chipping at some point. So that's my concern on the pulling. So pulling is the gateway drug to chipping is what you're saying. In some circumstances, yes. But let's just figure it out. Let's get clear coats on there that work.
    57:23
    I do want to see – I don't want to wait another six months for online connectivity, guys. We've talked about it forever. and everyone's saying it's right around the corner. I know Jersey Jack's beta testing, I think Stern said that at some point, the next release maybe, it's just going to be all online connectivity, but let's not just release it for the sake of releasing it so that we can update our games wirelessly. Let's implement things that are going to let us have fun with online connectivity and not just software updates. And I'm happy to make a phone call to anybody that's looking for some ideas because I just have great ways in which I would have so much more fun with my games. and when you're thinking about online connectivity let's make these games more accessible to implement hardware for for pinball streamers i want to be able to have cameras that plug in and get direct audio video out so that there should be a little board that's on the back that's just being selfish at least just have an upgrade or somebody in the mod community figure this out because uh let's just it just seems like it's something that can be done and with streaming arguably being free advertising for all these manufacturers and for distributors, let's make that at least an easy option to implement. And then finally, shipping pinball machines. I'm hearing more and more horror stories lately with games that are arriving damaged and boxes beat to hell. We need one of two things. We either need shipping companies to figure out how to ship a game, okay? Because what I'm finding out is happening, I have several people that have reached out to me that told me that if a game is damaged when it comes from their distributor and that game is rejected or turned away for shipping they don't just get a game shipped out to them right away that goes back to the manufacturer where there's an attempt at repair replacement and that could take months how frustrating would it be if you waited 18 months to get a game and it came and it was damaged and then you had to ship it back and had to wait two months how frustrating would it be if the brand new release that's available on the same day of launch you get and you and you're one of the first in line the forks going through the box but it's damage and you got to ship it back and you're watching everybody else get their game while you were ahead of everyone else and you got to sit and wait because you had damage the companies need to address how shipping damage takes place or have some type of prioritization for those customers uh and then secondly is this why do we not, and I don't know if this is a viable thing to consider, but why do we not have specific companies for shipping pinball and arcade machines? And it's not STI. It's not cost effective. And it's not fast and all. There's got to be a company that can offer some type of amusement white glove service, even if it's part-time. Get drivers in different regions that can just every two or three weeks create a route in which they're picking up and dropping off for some extra money. People that know how to handle a game, people that know how to wrap a game, people that know how to unpack a game, make it a white glove delivery pickup service and let everybody's mind at ease. Because you know what? If I'm going to pay $450 for a pinball machine to get shipped and I'm crossing my fingers that nothing goes wrong either on the delivery or on the shipping, I'd rather pay somebody $450 or $500 for that peace of mind knowing that they know what they're doing. picking it up so i would love to see something like that get implemented i'm gonna devil's advocate you here though but here's the problem dude no pinball machine or very few are absolutely perfect in every single way i think there's always going to be something minorly wrong whether it's a scratch underneath or a sticker that's not you know completely centered or one of these things dude and i could see the white glove service just taking it on the the chin on half these situations oh well i mean i'm kind of looking for concepts here i don't know that i agree with you though because if that's going to happen with regular shipping i'm just talking about like major stuff like like you just said forklift through the box who forklifts through a box and then tries to make a delivery attempt on a game what are they going to put some tape on it or say hey that's every shipping company that's my point that's that's that's so ridiculous like let's get people that know how to handle these games the shipping company doesn't care if it's a pinball or a pallet of Skittles. It's going to happen. They don't care. They're going to pass it off and say, either charge it to the insurance company or whatever. And it's all the shipping companies are guilty of this. And it's not necessarily the mission statement of the company is we don't care about what happens with our shipments. And I understand mistakes happen. But sometimes it looks like there's blatant abuse that takes place, and then there's an attempt at a delivery. And it's not fair that the consumer has to sit idle on something that was completely out of their control and wait for months to get something corrected or rectified, it's just not right. Let's figure out some type of white glove amusement device delivery service where people take extra care. You hear about people like Fast Eddie on the east side. That guy comes in and he knocks out a game, and you just know that game is like delivering a baby, man. There's no problem. We need more of that. But I think if we could figure out, and when I say we, I just think the pinball community. There's got to be money to be made out there, something that would be lucrative for somebody to get into, where you had a staff and you had some insurance and you just figured out regions of the United States and you just had routes that would be run, even if it was every 30 days. Anything on this route we're going to pick up and drop off, or anything on this route of C's we're going to pick up and drop off. It's once a month, once a month. And you know what? If I'm picking up 10 games on my route and I'm dropping off 10 games on my route once a month at $450 a pop, I just made $4,500 on my route once a week or once a month, you know, picking up and dropping off 10 games. I mean, there's money to be made on that. I mean, there's still insurance and stuff. For sure. But I'm just saying. Yeah, I get what you're saying. So it is, you know. Listen, I just bought the Wizard of Oz mod sign with the roses for Wizard of Oz for my game. Right. It just showed up today finally. How do you think that box came? Yeah, probably all messed up, man. Fragile on every single side, dude, and the whole corner smashed in. And I'm like, dude, I waited like two months for this. Open it up and it's fine. But I was like, you've got to be flipping kidding me. I don't like it. But it is what it is. So anyways, that's kind of like our 2020, not our wish list, but things that we'd like to see addressed by these pinball companies. I wanted to thank LearnMods.com for sponsoring Special One Lit Pinball Podcast. If you're looking for custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine, you want to go to L-E-R-M-O-D-S and visit LearnMods.com today. Bill, you got anything else? I think we're good. Pretty excited to be streaming Stranger Things. with one of my favorite pinball designers on a machine that happens to be a dream theme for me here in about 47 minutes. So that's going to be awesome. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.