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The Pinball Show Ep 169: Down The Rabbit Hole On A Sub-$1000 Pinball Machine

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 17m·analyzed·Jan 28, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Stern's production power, Dutch delays, and the risky sub-$1k Wonderland Amusements Kickstarter.

Summary

Zach Finney and Dennis Nordman discuss Stern Pinball's robust production capacity (shipping thousands of D&D units in weeks), Dutch Pinball's Alice delays into February, and the emergence of Wonderland Amusements' sub-$1,000 Kickstarter pinball machine. They analyze the viability of affordable home pinball and warn of high Kickstarter risk given manufacturing inexperience.

Key Claims

  • Stern is shipping thousands of D&D units within one month (LEs starting week of episode, Pros early February, Premiums mid-late February)

    high confidence · Zach cites Factory Friday posts and direct Stern information; specific timelines provided

  • D&D LE production about one week behind schedule due to parts issues

    high confidence · Zach states production is running approximately one week behind; parts resolved

  • Dutch Pinball Alice delays into second half of February for production start; still targeting end-of-2025 delivery guarantee

    high confidence · Direct quote from Dutch Pinball rep on Pinside forum provided in episode

  • Wonderland Amusements' sub-$1,000 Alice-themed pinball is 80% scale, further along than typical Kickstarter prototypes, launching March

    medium confidence · Zach references their Kickstarter messaging and YouTube prototype footage; not yet launched

  • Stern uses confusing internal codenames on shipping boxes (e.g., Jurassic Park labeled as 'Jaws', D&D coded as 'Ropes')

    high confidence · Zach reports personal inventory confusion with Nicole; direct examples cited

  • Metallica Remastered Premium production moved to March after February D&D focus

    high confidence · Production schedule from Stern provided by Zach

  • Uncanny X-Men shooter lane fix kits shipped to dealers; easy install and working perfectly

    high confidence · Zach confirms receipt and positive community response

  • Wonderland Amusements team comes from Arcade 1-Up background; potentially unaware of pinball manufacturing complexities

    medium confidence · Zach's analysis of company background and Expo presentation

Notable Quotes

  • “Thousands. That's just one title. Why do you struggle? That's what I want to ask them. I'm asking them now. Hey, other manufacturers, Dennis here. Why do you struggle?”

    Zach Finney @ ~14:30 — Highlights disparity between Stern's manufacturing scale and smaller competitors' production challenges

  • “Stern, you know what? I was just praising your longevity, your long-time manufacturing, your modern technique. Nice job on the modern there. I'm working on it. And here you are turning out code name stuff. Like, that's internal.”

    Zach Finney @ ~20:45 — Criticism of Stern's confusing codename usage on retail boxes undermining customer experience

  • “at the moment it's expected that the swapping over from the Big Lebowski to Alice setting up production, receiving all parts, like the play fields, will take us into February...This represents a slight delay compared to our initial schedule, but we feel it remains within a manageable time frame.”

    Dutch Pinball rep (quoted from Pinside) @ ~36:00 — Official Dutch Pinball statement on Alice production delay; still targeting 2025 delivery guarantee

  • “Founded by the creative team behind the Arcade 1-Up line, we're reimagining pinball for the home with high-quality affordable machines...sized at 80% of a full machine with a target price under $1,000.”

    Wonderland Amusements (quoted from Kickstarter) @ ~47:00 — Wonderland's core value proposition for sub-$1k accessible pinball

  • “This is a big, big, big, huge red flag risk. New company doesn't know anything about pinball manufacturing. I think they're doing most of it in Hong Kong. And this has red flags all over it.”

    Zach Finney @ ~65:00 — Strong cautionary stance on Wonderland Amusements Kickstarter viability and risk

  • “I like the idea. I think this is a good space...I used to really feel there is – and I still do believe there is a market for affordable pinball. And what we have now is not affordable pinball.”

    Zach Finney @ ~67:30 — Acknowledges genuine market need for sub-$5k entry-level pinball despite current risks

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyDutch PinballcompanyWonderland AmusementscompanyZach FinneypersonDennis NordmanpersonDungeons & Dragons: The Tyrant's EyegameAlice Adventures in WonderlandgameAlice Goes to Wonderlandgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Kickstarter crowdfunding model poses high risk; company has no third-party distribution protection or manufacturing track record

    high · Zach's explicit warning: 'huge red flag risk'; references historical Kickstarter failures and lack of equity return for backers

  • ?

    community_signal: Stern's use of internal codenames on shipping boxes creates retail confusion (e.g., Jurassic Park labeled 'Jaws', D&D labeled 'Ropes')

    high · Zach's personal inventory confusion; example of Nicole questioning topper labels

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Manufacturing scale disparity: Stern ships thousands in one month while competitors 'scrape' to produce machines

    high · Zach's observation of market contrast; Stern's Gottlieb Press investment advantage noted

  • $

    market_signal: Sub-$1,000 accessible home pinball as emerging market segment; narrative shift from commercial-grade to entry-level affordability

    medium · Zach advocates for this market; contrasts current $5k-$15k floor with past easier entry via vintage/DMD-era games

  • ?

    leak_detection: Wonderland Amusements prototype and Kickstarter marketing materials released ahead of March launch; 2.0 prototype gameplay video publicly available

    high · Zach references YouTube footage and Kickstarter campaign details; over 1,100 people on notification list

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.232

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. On episode 169, Dennis and I talk about Stern Pinball production updates. When you'll get your Dungeons and Dragons game. Delays over at Dutch Pinball. We chat about the other Alice and whether or not we will ever see a viable sub-$1,000 pinball machine, Evil Dead production updates, other pinistry news, and of course, pinball market trends. All of you Pinball Show official club members get an exclusive podcast episode covering the NAP Arcade article poll for the next Pedretti Gaming remake, what the results mean, and what many are missing. Dot, dot, dot. All of this and more on your favorite pinball podcast, The Pinball Show.
0:58
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality.
1:16
Welcome back to the Pinball Show. We're in episode 169. Myself, Zach Finney, alongside Dennis Creasel. Creasy to cheesy. How are you? Never say that again. The Crease. Remember that SNL skit? The Creso! Cresonator! Making copies!
1:33
Yes, vaguely, yes. Not one of the stronger skits. Silent but deadly at the copy machine! I don't think they were ever that funny. Oh, man. What have you been up to? Oh, not a whole lot. Actually, I've done a few over with my YouTube channel. I've done a couple wristwatch videos, but I've seen straight down the middle's been turning out some content. Yeah! Yeah, we're on fire. That's the train. That's the train of this and that. Or this or that. Or this and that. You know, I can't say anything right. I'm a modern person. Yeah, we've been doing a lot of videos lately. So much so that we had to do a sequel to This or That, titled This or That 2, The Empire Flips Back. Yeah, I do have to say the subtitle was very good. You know what's sad? I almost just immediately watched it just because of the subtitle. The sad thing is, is I was sitting there thinking of a way to title a follow-up to this. It was so dumb to even have a second one, but memory card, and we had to include Dungeons and Dragons, blah, blah, blah, blah. But as I was doing that, you find a way to permeate into my thought processes when you shouldn't, probably on a daily basis. So when I thought of that one, I thought of you with not even a smirk, almost like a corner of your lip just barely twitched. And I was like, ooh, that's the one. It is worthy enough. And in fact, I'm sure the algorithm will reward you if it has not rewarded you already. But I think your this or that videos lately, I know you used to say that they weren't actually the best performing videos. They do well. They've been doing well. They've been doing all right. I would say from my personal very humble opinion, they're doing quite decently. We've been hitting algorithms pretty good at SDTM, regardless of what others want to say in the industry. It's a pinball medium that gets a lot of consumption. So I don't know. Maybe we're just no longer relevant. Is that what you're saying? We're old hounds. They put us out to pasture.
Uncanny X-Men
game
Metallica Remasteredgame
Godzillagame
Jaws 50th Anniversarygame
Big Lebowskigame
Straight Down The Middleorganization
Kickstarterplatform
Arcade 1-Upcompany
Pinsideorganization
Spooky Pinballcompany
American Pinballcompany
Dwight Sullivanperson

market_signal: Acknowledged gap in affordable home pinball market ($5k-$15k current floor vs. demand for sub-$1k entry point)

high · Both hosts discuss market need; Zach advocates for entry-level segment despite Kickstarter concerns

  • $

    market_signal: Stern maintaining aggressive production of high-demand titles (Godzilla, Jaws, Metallica Remastered) while smaller competitors struggle with output

    high · Production schedules show repeat runs; Zach contrasts Stern's scale with other manufacturers

  • ?

    announcement: Stern shipping thousands of D&D units across all tiers (LE/Pro/Premium) within 4-week window

    high · Zach cites Factory Friday posts and direct Stern production schedules; specific weekly start dates provided

  • ?

    product_strategy: Wonderland Amusements sub-$1k pinball Kickstarter launching March; prototype shown but company inexperienced in pinball manufacturing

    medium · Zach's research of Wonderland's Arcade 1-Up background; prototype footage available on YouTube

  • ?

    product_strategy: Metallica Remastered code version .96 adds concert mode (no UI) and spinner sound option for player customization

    medium · Zach reports features but questions purpose of concert mode; feature set appears complete

  • ?

    product_concern: Uncanny X-Men shooter lane fix kits received positive reception; described as easy install and working perfectly

    high · Zach confirms receipt and community response; issue appears resolved

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Dutch Pinball Alice delayed into late February due to parts availability; production still targeted to meet end-2025 guarantee

    high · Official Dutch Pinball Pinside statement; parts still arriving

    • 3:33
    Did you ever think you'd be that person? Sometimes people even ask me, even though I don't work at all on straight down the middle videos. I've had people ask, like, why are there not more videos? And I just say, well, Greg's been sent to a farm upstate. The loony bin is where we've been. I saw. And poor Greg. I know he doesn't listen, but poor Greg. He got driven out of one of his route locations, a barbecue joint. He clearly doesn't listen to this show. I have said for months, barbecue places do not want pinball machines. It is not a good economic model. I didn't realize he was trying to route one there. Oh, my – yeah. But I was spitting truth for a long time. No, those tables are far more valuable for more barbecue eaters. He has every brand-new Stern Pro. Like, people went there even though the barbecue wasn't – yeah. Oh, and now you're attacking the barbecue. Oh, no. Well, I mean, Southern Indiana barbecue, how good could it be? Well, you just steal some other format. Like, you do it, like, Texas-style or North Carolina-style or however. What's the vinegar one that I think is gross? That might be Carolina. Oh, I'm sorry, Carolina. I mean, I know they – well, no. Carolina does the – they do the – yeah, they do the vinegar-based coleslaw. So I'm assuming their other sauces are sort of vinegary, but I'm not positive on that. I actually don't know all the nuances. I'm not a big barbecue connoisseur, even though I live in barbecue country. Here, of course, you probably don't care much for a lot of the Kansas City barbecues often use ketchup as a base. Some people don't like that. I'm more ketchupy than – and barbecue. I actually like almost all of it. More woods and hickories than I am vinegaries. Yeah. I remember going to Hard Eight in Dallas, and, well, the meats were very well done. I did not like their sauces, but I don't think they're really known for their sauces. So if so, they shouldn't be. Guys, they shouldn't be. So, yeah, straight down the middle, I've been recording a lot of that stuff lately. Yeah, because you had your best and the worst just a couple of weeks ago, and then you followed it right up. Sneak peek 2025. We had the best of 2024. We got this or that, this or that, too. I think next week we've got a good top 10 coming up, then a review. I think we even have another where we go and we pick the top five games from each manufacturer, both current and in the past. We've got a lot of stuff. Where is the surge of SDTM content coming from? Honestly, whenever we do the production stuff for manufacturers like we did for Spooky, the Evil Dead stuff, it drains at least three months. And then a month after that is like I'm recovering. Yeah, that's what happens. So it's a quarter of the year whenever we take on a project like that. And interesting to note, we were presented with another project for a spring release here for a featurette, and we actually turned it down. Whoa. Yeah.
    6:15
    I just, you know, we just got done with one. I'd rather have some fun with SDTM more. That's all. And I'm tired, Dennis. I'm tired. So much so, Dennis, I smell another vacation coming. No, not a cruise, though. Oh, yes, my friend. Nor a virus. This is going to be a cruise with just Nicole and I. Oh.
    6:39
    Where will the children be? Sex and time. Where will the children be? Who cares? I don't know. They're free-range children now. They're on the farm with Greg upstate. I just pictured my eight-year-old pecking at the ground. Yeah, that's right. If you want to be eating dirt, it's all you'll be able to get access to. Stop graveling rocks. Or what is it? Gargling, graveling. Yeah, gargling gravel. What do they do? They eat rocks, don't they? The chickens? Do they? To help with digestion? Yeah, I think so. I don't know a lot about chicken behavior. You ever shit out a rock? I bet that would hurt. You ever had a kidney stone? It depends how big the rock is. No, I've not had a kidney stone. I've not either. I'm not waiting for my first one. I'm eagerly waiting from the kidney stone fairy to deliver calcium into my urethra. No, but is it calcification of something? But I just know that it's going to come. Do you? It's like a sweet 16 party. Maybe I should invite my friends when it passes.
    7:40
    Let's talk about some pinball. Dennis Stern pinball and news production updates this last couple of weeks. Where's my D&D? I haven't ordered one, but if I did, I'd be like, where is it? You know what? What? Maybe I could say that this time you could have the first-run pros. Just saying. Oh, because they're not coming out until, like, February. Just saying. Maybe. I don't know. But the last couple of weeks, they've been building Godzilla premiums. They can't build enough of those things. And they've started the line, if you guys have seen it on their Factory Friday social media post, Dungeons & Dragons LE model. It's about a week behind what they wanted it to be. Yeah, was it a parts issue? It was a parts issue. I think a dragon part issue or something. But they said up and run, good to go. They should start shipping those Dungeons and Dragons LEs come this week. Like right now as we're speaking, as you guys are listening to this, they're probably shipping some out domestically. So, woo-hoo, that's great. So the next week or two you're going to see D&D LEs, as well as early February we're going to start seeing the pros go on the line. Those will be going out to locations across the world and into homes. I think this time around, because they did Ellie's first, they're going to be able to do a little bit bigger run of pros, hopefully. And we'll see some residential pros, too. And then mid to late February, we're going to see the premiums of Dungeons & Dragons roll out. Exciting times. A lot of games are going to be leaving Stern Pinball in the next four weeks. I'm talking thousands. Isn't that messed up to think about as a pinball enthusiast? All of these companies that we're going to talk about today, minus Stern Pinball, I mean, they scrape to try to get out these games. And here's Stern Pinball, who willy-nilly takes a Dungeons & Dragons-themed pinball machine and will ship thousands within a month. Why do you think that is? Because, I mean, granted, Stern has been in the manufacturing game a very, very long time, so I understand why they are able to do it, But a lot of their competitors have been pinball manufacturers for a number of years now. You're right. They've had time. Yeah, to figure it out. Thousands.
    9:52
    That's just one title. Why do you struggle? That's what I want to ask them. I'm asking them now. Hey, other manufacturers, Dennis here. Why do you struggle?
    10:02
    It's that damn Gottlieb Press. That's right. Stern's like the best investment we ever did was pick up that thing. The Schaukenheimer or whatever the hell that thing is. It's like stick your finger in that, Dwight. Watch out. I don't know why I picked on Dwight there. I just pictured him giving the tours. Does he? Is he the tour guy? He likes to give the tours. And then in March. You know, I've never been to the Stern factory. I've not been to the new one. I've not been to any of them. Actually, I've never toured any manufacturer. That's really sad. Of pinball. Is it sad? Yeah, it is. I don't sound sad. It's actually a really, well, because you don't know what you don't know. I mean, it's a really cool experience. Now, ignorance may be bliss. Do you need to do it multiple times? I don't know about that. Look, some people like to go multiple times because they're hoping someone's going to leave the back closet door open and they're going to say, there's Harry Potter. Codename Ranger.
    10:53
    Yeah, codename Back to the Future. You know what? Here's my beef of the day. Stern. Where's the beef? Zach here. I get the codenames and I get the purpose of them and I even get the tongue in cheek being cute. But if for any reason you think that you'll ever make a game, don't use that as a code name to a different game. And if you do, for example, the code name, do you know what the code name is for Jurassic Park? I do not. It's Jaws. Now, whenever they ship us accessories, sometimes they'll put Jurassic Park armor on there. but then sometimes they will put Jaws armor on there, but it's Jurassic Park. Do you see the confusion there? I do.
    11:43
    What the fuck? Figure it out. Why are they using code names on the boxes? I don't know. I don't understand any of this. Nicole's like, do we not have any Stranger Things toppers? I'm like, yeah, they're right there. She said, those say Goonies. I don't know. That's just the code name for it.
    11:58
    That's really bad. Stern, you know what? I was just praising your longevity, your long-time manufacturing, your modern technique. Nice job on the modern there. I'm working on it. And here you are turning out code name stuff. Like, that's internal. So, the secret stuff. That's clubhouse stuff. You can't be telling the public that stuff. So, that stuff gets confusing sometimes, especially if it's a different name. Jaws. I'm like, ah. I have vicarious sympathy for you over this. Thank you. thank you i guess i'd just still be sympathy but still nonetheless i wanted to say vicarious i'm trying to think what's the code name for metallica i don't know what acdc yeah february ropes is going to be released ropes that's the code name for dungeons and dragons what does it have to do with bro like what's where where's it come from i thought it might have been a cute thing because ropes is an item that oftentimes very nostalgic in the in the use of dungeons of dragons, I hear.
    13:00
    Have you heard that? I don't ever remember doing a lot with rope in the campaigns. To be fair, I did ask my son. I said, what's the code name? What's that? Because he's a big D&D guy. He's like, I don't know. Yeah, it's an item you use, but it's not... Is this the same son who's out eating the rocks? No, this is a 19-year-old one.
    13:20
    It's no gelatinous boob. That's what they should have used. Metallica Remastered Premium. Finally, they're going to make more in March. Stern, make some in February, please. February is busy with D&D Pro and Premium. Oh, my gosh. People are knocking down the doors for this Metallica remastered Premium. And then they're going to also be making a March Godzilla Pro and Premiums again. Godzilla Premiums again. They made them in January. They're going to make them in March. It's so popular. But I don't need to tell you that. And I definitely don't need to tell our Patreon subscribers because they got to hear about that and the performance of sales on the last. People like that. Exclusive content. Well, of course they did. They love looking behind the curtain. Hell, yeah. We got a lot of new subscribers off of that one. April. April comes along. They are planning on making Jaws Pro and Premiums again. Again, though. Man, those Jaws Premiums. It's a fun game. They're getting low everywhere. I'm not going to have enough to last until April, unfortunately. And then Uncanny X-Men Pro and Premiums. I'll have enough of those. Yeah, I was going to say, why? I thought that one's sales slowed way up. I have many spies, and I've heard it went out of the stable really, really fast. But you know what? The horse is lathered now and tired. Well, there's a news point coming up on X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, so we'll talk more about that. There is new code, though. New code for Metallica, version .96, where they've added, quote-unquote, concert experience. It's a new gameplay mode. Basically, during the mode, there's no UI frame. so you just see the concert you get like the scores at the bottom but I don't know what the purpose of this is yeah you can't see your progress is it just to jam out and play does it just go concert this doesn't sound like a feature that was really asked for it was probably relatively easy to do oh yeah maybe but anyway maybe there's more to it but you can set it as an option for default game mode. And also, a lot of people were complaining about spinner sounds before radio. Why? Should I fix that? I don't know. They like the original, so now there's an option. I mean, that's fine. There's an option to change it. And then we talked about Uncanny X-Men. Dennis, they had the Making Of video that came out this last week. Well done video. I love those behind-the-scenes videos. Just love them. Can't get enough of them. My favorite, now that's the main one that they've just put out, But my favorite was the one that they put out about the making of X-Men Code, but it's a YouTube short.
    15:55
    You see, listener, because the short, because it's lacking. Ain't I a stinker? Sorry.
    16:06
    Speaking of Looney Tunes. That's all right. Let's talk about X-Men more. Fix kits, the Shooter Lane fix kits. Yeah, I heard about those. They're all shipped. I hope they don't say the code name on them. You know, that's right. What was the uncanny? That was, let's see, Jaws was Vertigo. I don't remember. Was it Beast? No? I don't know. I'll have to go back and look. But the fixed kits that Stern has issued, sent out to dealers, and then dealers paid to ship them everywhere. So everybody's got those. And great responses thus far. They are easy to install and working perfectly. perfectly so thank god for that plunger gate is over i'm sure there's other stuff that they're worried about but yes for that and we're just uh waiting for more codes if you want to you know maybe work some overtime there with some guys already it's not even february yet you're volunteering them for overtime oh i'll pitch in at this point let's uh i just man my hardest with that game i'm one of those i'm one of those poor bastards it's like i'm sitting there waiting i'm just waiting i got my my t-shirt on i love you uncanny i just your flippy floppies i still i think it's gonna happen and i have a good i have a good uh history of of calling them so we'll see we'll see if i got this one wrong or right the flippy floppies line was a reference to the i'm on a boat from lonely island but i don't want to sing it i'm on a boat yeah i'll be on a boat here soon i should have mentioned that back with that part it would fit much better as the segment oh well you know what they can't all be winners oh speaking of not being yeah no no no no no no no dutch pinball is delayed what them delays say it ain't so well it took a while for the big lebowski a little a little while it may be the same for Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. I remember they came out with this game and they were like, we're going to start building it at the end of, I don't know, December or something, January. Well, they're still waiting on parts and stuff. I think they just... Is it the dragon? Is that the part that's holding them up? They just built the last TBL, Big Lebowski. But there was a rep, a Dutch pinball rep on Pennside that said, quote, at the moment it's expected that the swapping over from the Big Lebowski to Alice setting up production, receiving all parts, like the play fields, will take us into February. And thus production is, at the moment, expected to be started second part February. This represents a slight delay compared to our initial schedule, but we feel it remains within a manageable time frame. Now keep in mind, listener, the time frame I think they're referring to by default is the guarantee that they made whenever they put these games for pre-order, is that if you do not have your game built into you by the end of 2025, you are eligible for a full refund. Ah. So your take then is that manageable timeframe means that they still think they can accomplish that goal They still think they can accomplish it I think that what they saying I think you right given that content I didn remember what they had offered up Right, but I thought I also – initially when I saw this, I wondered, do they mean that manageable time frame is it's going to be delayed by maybe four weeks, so no one should get mad about that and ask for refunds? I just don't – if they're receiving all the parts Playfield's suggesting that they have or really close to, They're still waiting for parts, and then they're going to get into production. Look, so it's going to take them into February, which is in a couple days, but then by mid-February, they're going to start production?
    19:57
    That's going to be a slow process. I still worry. I really worry about it. Well, here's the thing. It's nice that they've made a statement. I think it's good to keep people informed, but they don't have all the parts yet, it sounds like. So what if there's yet more delay? Sure. You know, I was expecting something that was supposed to arrive yesterday from Amazon, and it ended up not arriving at 10 p.m. like they said it would. And now it's sometime going to come. Don't ask Dennis what it is. Yeah, don't ask me.
    20:26
    Is it a filter? No, it's some stupid stuff. It's like clothes or something. Okay. Now I really want to know. Damn it. Okay. Dutch Pinball sounds like they're delayed a bit on Alice. It comes as no surprise to anyone, but they still think that they can catch up. So, good deal. When do you think we see the first game leave that factory?
    20:50
    I will say May. Damn it. That's what I was going to say. So, I'll go June. Okay. Speaking of Alice. What? More Alice? Another Alice. No. There can only be one. There can only be one Alice. We're just calling this one the other Alice. Other Alice. Have you heard of Wonderland Amusements? I have. I didn't know if we were going to even discuss this on the show because it was – I didn't know if it was really pinball.
    21:19
    But – Given the last two weeks, it's pinball this time. It's going to be. We're a little thin. But an interesting story that this company came out of nowhere end of last year or mid last year where they said, we're jumping into the manufacturing. Oh, wait. There's somebody else making Alice? Well, shit. We named our whole company around it, Wonderland Amusement.
    21:46
    I'll use the word ignorant, but not in a derogatory way. I think they were just ignorant to the fact of what this industry is and how to manufacture and everything within pinball. A lot of these individuals within this company coming from the arcade one-up line of products, so they were diving in headfirst, maybe with not the best historical research done. Maybe. Maybe they did, and they didn't care. But they came to Expo, and they said they were going to have their product, like a prototype, but it was under a blanket. And when it wasn't, it was just like a black box, looked like a virtual pin, a little tiny virtual pin. So we didn't know if it was a virtual. Nobody knew what the hell the thing was. But they claimed, hey, we're going to be bringing to the market a pinball machine, a real mechanical pinball machine that is under $1,000. And everybody was like, good luck. And nobody believed them. and then they announced late last year into this year not only are we gonna do that but we're gonna do it via kickstarter and then everybody's like remember when i said good luck to hell with that you no longer get my good luck and uh go fuck yourself because people don't like kickstarter i guess yeah they don't trust it well and i've i've talked to you off air about this myself but i mean a lot of people have been burned by by kickstarter that's not my biggest concern just me uh in terms of my money, I've never been keen on it from a, I don't want to use the word investor. Well, yeah. So yeah, well, because it's not really an investment because you don't get any equity. A lot of times it's like you get a little bit of money and it's like your name will be in the credits or maybe you'll get a copy of the product. Like a lot of video games do this or a book will do it or whatever. So from a business perspective, using Kickstarter is brilliant in my opinion, because you make all these other people subsidize your risk and they don't really get anything meaningful out of it. They don't get any return. That's true. They might get a product. Game or anything, yeah. They might get a thing. It's like pre-ordering. But you're basically using them to generate sums that are investment sums. And I don't invest without a return. It's just scary because it's a new company again. But that's how Kickstarter generally is for so many things. But we've seen Kickstarter, I mean, again, in terms of ancillary pinball. Pinball Arcade for years used Kickstarter to fund their licensed tables to add to their deck. So they had to do one for T2. Are they still around? What's the deal with that? I don't know anymore. I don't know. I don't either. But anyway, okay, so they're using Kickstarter. And they're saying, at Wonderland Amusements, our goal is simple, to make real mechanical pinball accessible for everyone, affordable, compact, and full of fun. so real mechanical pinball i'm reading from their their jump starter quick starter kickstarter whatever it is an unmatched sensory experience perfect blend of skill strategy blah blah we know what pinball is and gravity that no virtual pinball can truly replicate no shit while companies like stern and american pinball i'm surprised they're even using their names but also including american pinball is funny have revitalized the hobby with exciting commercial tables Their $5,000 to $15,000 price tags put them out of reach for most home enthusiasts. How do they measure that? How do you measure most home enthusiasts? That's where Wonderland Amusements comes in. Founded by the creative team behind the Arcade 1-Up line, we're reimagining pinball for the home with high-quality affordable machines. Our first table, Alice Goes to Wonderland, combines the whimsy of Lewis Carroll's classic story with modern design and engineering. sized at 80% of a full machine with a target price under $1,000. It's designed to make real pinball accessible for everyone. And if we've got your attention, then they offer the link for their YouTube. Their most recent update showed some gameplay, their 2.0 prototype. And by the looks of it, it looks like a pinball machine. LCD screen. I mean, it looks a little fragile, but it looks like a pinball machine. It's actually, given that this Kickstarter, a lot of times with Kickstarters, when I've looked at them, I'm going to use the word half-baked. I've seen them all over the place. I've seen some with a lot of the concept stuff. Like this has, again, the game, like you can actually look and see what the game design is. So this is further along than like when Vonnie D was trying to do Pinball Gremlins. You probably don't remember that. It was before you were in the hobby. But, you know, this actually seems like they've already got a lot of the concept there. They're basically going to use Kickstarter to try and fund it.
    26:10
    And I don't – again, at this time, I wasn't sure if it had launched yet. They haven't launched the Kickstarter yet. March, I think. So we don't know – I don't know yet how much they're going to try and get. I don't know how much – obviously, they haven't raised anything yet. How much do they have to raise, I wonder? I don't know. Yeah, it's up – I see that they've got over 1,100 people watching it, so they're notified when it goes live to consider putting money in. Is there any requirement for them to fulfill? Is there any legal requirement for them to fulfill anything? Let's say they get a million dollars rounded up, and let's say they don't make it. Are they required to give the million dollars back? If the Kickstarter doesn't make its Kickstarter goal, I believe the rules of Kickstarter is everyone's just automatically refunded. But if they make the goal and they still don't make anything? You might have legal rights. I don't know. That's beyond my knowledge. A lot of people have been burned off because a lot of times the business, the LLC, whatever they set up, is bankrupt. So there's nothing to go after. Yeah. Tony had a – this was a few years ago on Eclectic Gamers podcast. We had an episode where he went on about an hour on like the biggest Kickstarter thing he had ever backed, and it did not fulfill. And he was furious.
    27:22
    It sucks. Yeah. Lots of people have gone in on things like really fancy like 3D printers that don't come to fruition and all sorts of stuff. So, yeah, people get burned on Kickstarter all the time. So a word of caution to our listeners that this piques their interest. Man, like my opinion and my advice would be this is a big, big, big, huge red flag risk. New company doesn't know anything about pinball manufacturing. I think they're doing most of it in Hong Kong. And this has red flags all over it. If you do decide to plop down money, I don't even know what their Kickstarter is going to be and how much. Yeah, we don't know the tiers. It might be able to support it at a very low level. Even at a dollar, $10,000, whatever you're putting in, expect there to be a big possibility that you're going to lose that money. And if you're okay with that, then do whatever your little heart desires. But don't go crying later on whenever, you know, because to my knowledge, it's not like they have any third party that's going to help protect this money, like a distribution network. I would treat it like an investment, except you're not going to get any equity, so I don't know why you're doing that. That's right. But treat it like an investment. Investments fail all the time. I've put in money in a number of penny stocks. They're penny stocks for a reason, and pretty much all of them failed. Yeah. So, yeah, that's all. But the idea – I like the idea. I think this is a good space. I used to – I don't talk about this as much as I used to, but I used to really feel there is – and I still do believe there is a market for affordable pinball. And what we have now is not affordable pinball. It's commercial-grade pinball that people have just rationalized that they're willing to pay those amounts of money for. And that's fine for the enthusiast. But how do you make a new enthusiast? And basically there's only one way currently. And that's – you've got to expose them to the commercial stuff, and then hopefully they get addicted enough that they want to buy it. Or virtual pin.
    29:29
    Virtual pin is possible, but I don't know how rampant those are readily purchased. And a lot of people – that's a big leap. Like, I mean, there are some fancy ones. I have one that I built with my dad where you get the visceral feedback and such from it. But, like, in terms of – I mean, the best way currently is to actually go out and buy older games. It's not necessarily vintage, but maybe not something that's super modern, but you're going in and you're purchasing DMD-era games or alpha-neurics. 80s solid-state. Yeah, like how a lot of people started out. So that's still a really good option, but there's a lot of fixing that comes with that. There's not a lot of marketing to that, though. Yes. So here, though, the idea of new – I'm going to use air quotes – or new pinball, something kind of like what Stern was trying to do with Costco and the Jurassic Park and all the pins. The problem is, as I've criticized them throughout the years, is the price points are still way, way too high. You need to have something that is competitive with other game room stuff. I think we've even said sub $1,000 would be huge.
    30:34
    Just getting it to the price of like a pool table would be huge. But this, yeah, sub $1,000, this could, again, and if they're able to fulfill on the 80% of size, yes, it's going to be like a mini pool table. Like I had a little one as a kid with smaller balls and a smaller table and all that. Like, you know what? But it gives you a taste. If you get it to like a rule structure of a System 11 game at sub-$1,000, that's where you need to be. And you don't have to work on it because it's modern?
    31:02
    That's the problem. That's one of the problems that we'll discuss. So we're both in agreement. A sub-$1,000 pinball machine would be really big for the industry in general. I think it would be a fantastic idea. Can you build a pinball machine, even at mass, for under $1,000?
    31:27
    That's where I'm getting hung up here because when I see the product that they're showing and their prototype, I'm not struggling because a lot of people are like, I don't see how you could make that for under $1,000. I'm not saying that you can't. I think you may be able to. The problem is, what is your profit margins? How many do you have to make in order to see enough profit? Or is this like a console thing where they're banking on not making anything for the first machine and hoping like hell people buy it? There's no way because this is a one and done product for a lot of people, I think. I don't see people collecting these.
    32:06
    Right? I don't know if they've thought that far ahead. I hope so. No, I'm sure they've thought about the profit margin. I don't know if they've thought about exactly the behavior of the long-term consumer. Okay, so if they haven't, then they think they're going to sell 100,000 copies. No one's assuming that everyone's going to go and Pokemon this shit and collect them all. No one goes into business thinking that. I don't think Stern assumes that. I think if you go into the collectible industry, you might. Well, yeah, but this is pinball machines. It's like, I don't know. How many people collect arcade one-ups? There are some. I think there are some. But no, you're right. It's more for the use of it. It's a game. it's so to me i think it's more of a i if i were them i would assume one in duns and then the plan will be different themes will move uh the units to different homes in fact the game layouts don't have to change zach they can keep using sure you're absolutely right and that's where economies of scale same rules again you know maybe you change some of the imagery but all the rules are the same you just change the art you change the theme there you go how many do you think that's They think that they're going to sell of this. If they can capture $1,000 for this, Alice Goes to Wonderland, how many do you think they believe that they can sell to the current worldwide market? Four figures. Somewhere between 1 and 10,000. Yes, yeah.
    33:29
    I know that's a broad range, but that's what I think they're hoping for out of the first one. 10,000 units. I don't think it's enough.
    33:38
    I mean, let's crunch the numbers here. $10,000 at $1,000. I mean, I'm not saying it only, but it's only $10 million.
    33:48
    Only, yeah. For 10,000 units of a complex toy? But we haven't seen the innards. If it's all off-the-shelf parts, where's the real investment? The vacuum-formed ramps? Not really. I mean... Generic screen, generic flippers. I would say... take a page out of stern the pin you're using as minimal coils as possible all those pops are probably on the same coil i would say tooling tooling for all of the all of the mechanism stuff like even the the flippers the slings the pop bump like they're probably buying all of it already made they're suppliers for all of this stuff yeah yeah but what's going to run it You've got to have some kind of CPU. Raspberry Pi. Could be.
    34:35
    Could be. I use a Raspberry Pi to run my old Gottliebs. How much do they have to make on a $1,000 pinball machine? I would think they... Yeah, I have no idea what the margin is, but... It's going to be more than 10% because anything under 10% on anything is laughable. I think they're going to make it at $500 a piece at 10,000 units.
    35:03
    I mean, there are other things. Remember, it's 80% size is what they're shooting for, but we don't know the materials of the, I mean, plastic legs. I never knew what the 80% size even has to do with anything because it's not 80% the price. I don't think it's going to be plywoods and stuff. They're using a lot of plastics, plastic legs. It'll all be plastic. There's just stuff that it's going to be lighter. There are a lot of cheaper things that could be used. It's not going to have glass. It'll be fiberglass. There's no CoinMex or anything to worry about with any of that. There's a lot that they can do that commercial pinball doesn't because there would be too much blowback from the enthusiasts, but could save a lot of money. They still need to find a way to put weight into it somehow, even if it's artificial.
    35:47
    Maybe not, though. Maybe not. Again, at sub $1,000, I think as a consumer, if you're like, I want a modern pinball machine at sub $1,000, you're willing to give up a lot, right? You know it's not going to be the full commercial experience. That's what I like about it because nobody can argue. You can't really bitch and moan about what you get for under $1,000 in a pinball machine. It'll be a throwaway product for a lot of people. Yeah. In fact, I don't even think that that play field is going to be protected by glass. I think that's plastic too. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like if it'll be a plexi or something. Yeah. A little sheet of plexi.
    36:24
    And if stuff doesn't work, who's going to fix it? Are they just going to be modules that you kind of, I mean, I'll assume they'll offer some limited, like when you're warranty or something.
    36:37
    Yeah. I mean, again, if it's, if it's powered by, if it's going to be as basic as I think it is like current raspberry pie situations, if the software is not working right, you send them a new SD card or you send them a new pie. I mean, it's a cheap piece of equipment.
    36:53
    Yeah, but coils burn. Especially if they buy in bulk. And if you're making them cheap, I mean, we're still dealing with coils and electricity. But how many coils? I mean, I'm already seeing one, two, three, four at minimum.
    37:09
    Coils are not as expensive as I think Stern tries to imply to people. Especially if you use small ones. But they run hot. I mean, they're coils. So there's still kind of a high voltage. Not super high voltage, but shit can burn is what I'm saying. We ain't just dealing with a Raspberry Pi here. Mechanical stuff. Yeah, but that's just some transistors. They're less than a dollar a piece. When you get a toy that doesn't work, you throw it away. Or you return it in full. You don't fix it. What toy do you fix? I don't think you fix anything. Maybe like RC cars and stuff, but that's a more complex hobby. I mean it's like a TV right TV's cost more than this what happens when a TV and TV's break and I've had instances I had a TV that broke and so I contacted the company and they're like you can take it back or if you know like I said well this is what burned out I already opened it and looked and they're like we'll send you the part if you want to change it yourself they were shocked they're like what and so they did they sent me the little thing that needed replaced the little capacitor that melted that's amazing but they sold 100,000 units of that. I mean, it's a TV, so they sold a lot. All right. Well, let's say that they're making – I'm just going to do rough math here because I don't know how you make it under $600. I have no clue how you do that. Let's say they make it for $600. They get $400 profit times 10,000 units. That's only $4 million.
    38:34
    What the price to manufacture all of that long term I don know I don think they spinning up a manufacturer I think they're contract manufacturing everything. Even more expensive. Like how Dutch wanted to do it. Even more money.
    38:52
    Okay, well. I don't know. Maybe their contract manufacturers they use for Arcade 1-Up are willing to do this. Possibly. I'm interested in this model, very much so. The model being the idea of it. Yes. There is one thing that I did want to point out, and I know it's unfair to the listeners because this is an audio medium, but where they're clearly not spending the money is on the art.
    39:16
    The back glass that you've included, the Alice, potato face Alice. So we have gone from Duchess Alice, which I think you generously have stated was Alice. You can smell the artwork, yeah. where you can smell the artwork, and to this one where you can smell the artwork and it smells like french fries. Her hair looks like french fries. Her face is a spud. She has a spud face.
    39:50
    Okay, so that's how they're saving the money. It's not crazy great. Look at her face. It doesn't have to be. This is like the face from that famous painting, The Scream. that's her face, but as a potato.
    40:07
    At least they got the outfit right. I think I am describing this accurately. And in fact, it's really only her face that looks truly awful. Everything else is okay. I don't know. There's a couple other questionable things I have. Her face looks like... What was the name of Christopher Lloyd's character in Adam's Family?
    40:25
    Which Adam's is... Fester. It's Fester with a wig. Fester in Wonderland. You just want to put a light bulb in her mouth? Yes!
    40:34
    But that would be extra money, and we can't budget for that. Okay. Okay, well, all right. Let's see what they do with all of this. I also have one last question about the back glass art. All right, so the Queen of Hearts is portrayed on the left, and she's got her card soldiers. Why is the seven a diamond? That's true. And why does the Nine of Hearts, the ear flap on the Nine of Hearts closest to the viewer? it's a spade but red on the head you're not wrong AI bullshit you're not wrong this is an artist I am highly trained pinfall critic I don't know yeah you're right I didn't look at it that long but it doesn't take too long to identify some of these issues why is it like that that is very strange because I think AI was involved because that's another way you can save money yeah
    41:30
    What is it from? Why is the Seven of Hearts, why are his legs real small? Look at a little bit. Look at a little video thing. You're seeing where the money can be saved in real time. It's like his whole body has shifted. Okay, I don't want to look too close at this. That's a good thing. Why did you include the photo then? I don't know. Of course I'm going to look. Why just, you know. Okay, anyway, modern pinball under $1,000. And what is the Kickstarter? What are you getting if you're putting in? We don't know yet. I just went to the site. It doesn't say. Okay. So we can't. You have to be giving something. Otherwise, why not just wait until it's on the shelves? They're usually tiers. So usually a lot of launches will. Early achiever. Right. Usually most of the stuff I've seen isn't this much. So there's usually a tier that will let you get the product. Sometimes there are lower tiers, especially with a product that's expensive, where maybe, I mean, there's often like swag. Like you can get a shirt. You can get a mouse pad. You can, you know. A mouse pad? Do people use those still? No, I'm just throwing stuff out there. How many literally do mouse pads? I just don't know what they can offer. Look, why do this? Your name in the credits. Find an investor and build these damn things. Kickstarter means they don't have to. It's not that much money. They don't want to give any equity to anyone else. They want to own it. $2 million to do this? I mean, figure it out. But why let someone have 10% share in your company when you can find enough people, in theory, via Kickstarter, who will do it for free? It's free money. Why would you seek an investment? I don't know why anybody would give money for any of this unless they were – We'll find out. We'll find out once the Kickstarter is live. The first day would have been a huge sign that this is not open yet. I can't give you a prediction because usually the Kickstarter does very well at the start, and then it immediately falls off like a stone. and then right before the deadline, usually see a surge again. Because one of the common tactics on Kickstarter is the people behind the company will invest through the Kickstarter to make it meet its goal, if it's close enough. Because then they get the money. There's something wrong with their body ratios. You said you were going to look at this anymore. There's something wrong with them. You want to see Suey's long-lost brother? Suey? Zoom in to the left of it, and you'll see what I'm guessing is Humpty Dumpty. But what? Humpty Dumpty isn't in Alice in Wonderland, is he? He is. I never read it. He looks like a deranged. Yes.
    44:11
    Deranged, cracked up egg. Yes. Why are their legs so small? They skipped leg day. They skipped leg year. like why does the why is the caterpillar the smoking caterpillar in the upper right why is he shooting the smoke out like he's godzilla doing a like a ray attack in fact i hear i can i can literally his face is going oh my gosh why aren't the rabbit's feet on the ground and why is the rabbit rabid is he floating look at the rabbit's face that rabbit has got for that potato face. And why does the Mad Hatter's T look like string coming out of the cup? It's the same texture as Alice's hair. Mustard!
    45:01
    That's a very good impression. That's my favorite. I love that. Don't be silly. I love Alice's in Wonderland. God, why do they keep messing up this beloved theme? What does the rat have to do with anything? Was that Mickey Mouse? Make Mickey Mouse, but make him rabid. Yeah, I thought it was like a nod to Mickey Mouse. Secrets of NIMH creeping up into this thing. I don't know. Secrets of NIMH. Remember, what was Fievel? I loved Fievel. Fievel and Fievel Goes West. Oh, my God. Yeah, Fievel, the American tale. Give him the lazy eye. I remember the dog and the cat. There are no cats in America. Oh, man. And the streets are made of cheese. I loved when cartoons scared the shit out of you as a kid. That was good. That was good stuff. But now, it's just all peaches and rainbows. Let's talk about Pedretti Gaming. All right. This is per NAP Arcade. An article over there was talking about their manufacturing timelines and such. The next game up at the factory after production of Machines for Pinball Brothers is going to be a brand new game. likely to be revealed sometime in October. Contrary to recent rumors from others and speculation from myself, that is NAP, Pedretti has not officially decided what remake is going to be next, though, what they're going to do next. Currently, they have two different games in the prototype stage. All right. So then later, NAP Arcade gets the approval from Pedretti Gaming to run a poll on their site for people to choose what remakes they would like to see from the company. I have a lot of thoughts about this, both about the idea of it, the results, what the results say and don't say. There's a lot of information here that I cannot wait to discuss with you, Dennis. And we're going to do so for the official club members of the pinball show. And if you're not one of those, you can get the exclusive content by just going to patreon.com slash the pinball show, signing up at the minimum level, like 10 bucks a month. It's cheaper than Netflix, damn, for specialized pinball content. Come on. Helps the show. You get a private-ish Discord channel to hang out with us. All the way up to like you got levels over there at the pinball show membership that we do a happy hour hangout every single month. Yeah, we just did that this last week. That was a good one. Yes. That was a salty one. Feisty, feisty folks. It was a good one. Strong takes, which is what we like. then you can get your own nickname as a Screaming Go Club member, questions for the show, swag, all kinds of stuff. And it helps out the show.
    47:46
    That's the most important part, I think, the support. So go sign up because, oh, man, you see the notes here, Dennis. Some interesting stuff here.
    47:56
    Wow, you really did a lot to put this segment together, too. You know, my heart, my queen of hearts goes out to some of these older games and a lot of questions. And my seven of hearts slash diamonds accepts it. And I don't know if people read between the lines because the results of this tells us a lot of stuff.
    48:19
    So go check it out. Patreon.com slash The Pinball Show. Truly thank you for the ongoing support. Spooky Pinball, did you know they're going to start shipping out these evil deads? We're getting close. Yeah, well, I knew they had to likely be trying to target getting them out before it would show up at Texas Pinball Festival next, well, almost next month. In March, yeah. I keep forgetting we're not quite in February yet. Not quite there. We're close. I was talking to my friends over at Spooky Pinball. Shout out to Bug and Luke.
    48:50
    And they were telling me that they're going to Pinball at the Beach. I think they're going to take some games there so that everybody can get their hands on it. So that's cool. That's going to run from February 7th to 9th. and then once they return from that, they plan on starting daily shipping of Evil Dead. Of course, they're going to start slower, as they always do, to have so many games launch a week or be produced a week and then bump that up to double in a month or two. The cool thing is a handful of Evil Dead games possibly shipping out late this week into next week. So be on the lookout for a potential stream from Flippin' Out Pinball Joel. Maybe he'll do some And we'll do some media for Evil Dead So they're coming We did get another stream of Evil Dead That was done by Bug and Luke this past week So go check that out In-disc Dennis Competition pinball Everybody hang in there We still got market trends Don't click off yet I've been watching a little bit of the in-disc But I don't know Because of when we're recording I don't know who all the winners are yet So I'll be tuning in I'm not going to lie I'll probably tune into NFL games But I'll be clicking back and forth between this So just wanted to at least acknowledge it and say congrats to all of the winners and a hats off from the pinball show and a thank you to IE Pinball for all of the coverage. And speaking of thank yous, we have to thank some people here. They're our most beloved listeners, followers, supporters. They are the one, the only, the baddest ass group of fucking pinball people in the entire hobby. They are known simply as the Screaming Goats. for our discussion with our goats today i want to throw this out as a concept to you zach oh okay what if they got to be what would what would the theme be to represent them in a in a modern sub-one thousand dollar oh wow okay that's a good one that's a good one we'll kick it off by saying thank you to rodney he's our show's bobcat uh i want to do this as an original theme more than anything in pinball i i would love to see an original themed well i guess it's not original it's from the the viral video a bobcat attacked my wife and uh i i want to see a gun shooting a fucker i want to see a gnarled up wife so i think this is original theme okay i was leaning to i i like that i think it would be more enjoyable but i i still think that you can do with even with a sub-$1,000 game that they could do Bobcat Goldwaith?
    51:22
    Okay. I can't do a Bobcat. A Police Academy Bobcat? Yes. Oh, my God. I can't do his voice. I can't either. All right, go. I can't get there. Yes. Hit American Comedian. Yes. Huh. That would probably only cost $200. I want to say thank you to Steve, the Jabs, Bumblebee. this one writes itself what what uh b movie oh damn that was wrong i thought you were going like generation one or something isn't that under the disney handle there's no way a sub-one thousand dollar no that's not that's a new in box modern pinball machine could i thought you were like g1 transformers something again too expensive we got a go bots it's gonna have to be go, boss. We can't. Remember, the price has to be under $1,000. We can't afford no Transformers. So we got to go Bee Movie here. Wow. I don't know if we can even afford that. With a Seinfeld sound alike. Yeah. What's the deal? What's the deal with all of these bees?
    52:33
    And they're bumbling. Why is there one queen? What's so special about her? Thank you, Rob the Panther. I think the Panther, a sub-$1,000 pinball machine. Well, you know, Disney did have the hit Marvel movie Black Panther. Okay, yeah, I remember that. But what about Gray Panther?
    52:58
    Is it like an old superhero Black Panther? Retire. It's Retiree Panther. That's right. I'm okay with that. It's like these criminals are stopping him from getting to the Denny's early dinner special. Don't mess with my prunes. I thought it could be like the Pink Panther because I thought that's a dead license, isn't it? You know what? That one probably would be affordable. Thank you, Frank.
    53:24
    Falcon. I loved him in one of the previous episodes. We talked about something about scrotums and falcons, and I talked about them not having nuts, and I altered the audio so it sounded like he had a high-pitched. i i didn't i heard that but it made me oh when sometimes when i edit i so i amused yourself i amuse myself all right so the falcon how about we do a sub-1 000 pinball machine based around the atlanta falcons how horrible that was out a consistently losing NFL team. That's so mean. Timely, but cruel. I was going to say, well, you know, people who like Star Wars love the Millennium Falcon, but what about the Decadian Falcon? The Decadian Falcon. It kind of looks like the Millennium Falcon, but only like a decade old. As long as the Stormtroopers have little legs. Just like that. The little legs. They've got little seven of diamonds on their outfits and stuff. Thank you, Dave. You are the shaker motor. and I think sub-1000. I don't know if it can have a shaker motor. I think it should be a Zizzle with seven shaker motors built into it. Just pour a little gate, it's going to fall apart. It just shakes apart.
    54:51
    Oh, definitely. They need to put in like, it's going to have those real cheap, like whatever's used to vibrate cell phones. They're going to use that for the shakers. Shakes the Raspberry Pi. Thank you, Joe and your Foxy Ways. He's our fox over here at the Pinball Show. We appreciate the continued support.
    55:14
    I was going to make a joke. I feel bad, but it's just right there. Speaking of... Oh, see? Cut that one. Okay. Cut that one out.
    55:27
    Absolutely not. Okay. But it was still pretty good. Oh, no. No. You have forgotten your audience. Absolutely not.
    55:39
    Well, in Pulp Fiction, another popular pinball machine, remember Uma Thurman's character talking about Fox Force 5? That is a stretch. Well, no, this will be Fox Force 4. We've got to lower it a number to get it under $1,000. actually i think for fox for a sub-1,000 dollar pinball machine we base it around the popular fox series not stern pinballs 24 because that's been done but 24 legacy that came back out in 2017 that's that's the sub-1,000 i think i saw that yeah wasn't that the one that was only 12 episodes it was like they did it they convinced every episode every episode was like two hours yeah It's two hours, Mr. President. But not in real time. Like the whole concept was betrayed. Yes. Messed it all up. Starring what was Zoe. That's right.
    56:33
    Jackpot. All right. Was that Jack? Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, yes, yes. All right. Okay, thank you, Charlie. We appreciate your support. Ring-a-ling, my bell. And we've got to do the sub. I think this might sell. a sub-$1,000 pinball machine based around the hit fast food chain Taco Bell.
    56:56
    Hmm. Yeah. Now all restaurants are Taco Bell. Yeah. Demolition Man reference, so tying to another pinball machine. And if you hit the jackpot, you get a little... That's the joke. That's why you wanted to make your farts. All right. Well, that probably works better than my suggestion of the affordable license saved by the bell. Oh, I think that might sell, though. But that is a good sub $1,000 with the Slater edition. Yeah. Or Screech. Didn't Screech have a big dick? Or what was the thing with Screech? Or was he a crackhead? He did some porn stuff, I think, after. So that's where that's coming from. Didn't he die? Yes, I believe so. Overdose? I don't know the cause. On vagina.
    57:42
    All right. William. Oh, my God. I wish I hadn't suggested anything. William, thank you for the continued support. You're the dude here. Take the ringer. All right.
    57:54
    What the... Have they called yet What the hell is this My dirty undies dude Laundry The whites and uh for a sub pinball machine you know i think it would only fit that that sub we can afford the e he's the dud milk duds the milk theme i was gonna go with we can't afford any of the actors on that except for one and we're just gonna do the big lebowski tara reed edition I think she's still available. If she's alive, she's got to be available for life. We can't check. We're too busy. A hundred bucks. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I want the Tara Reid edition. Like, not American Pie Tara Reid. No, no. Like, later years, five years ago Tara Reid. Thank you, Josh. And you're a rooster cock.
    58:44
    You're a rock out with my cock out. Thank you for the continued support. can we please do a sub $1,000? This is such a stretch. And for those of you who, who know this reference, you're everything to me. What about a sub $1,000 pinball machine based around the animated film? Rock a doodle. Do you remember that? The rooster that was Elvis? I've heard of it, but I'm not, I don't have a memory of seeing it. 1991 family animated film. Rock a doodle. Frickin Don Bluth. And, Oh, makes sense. And Gary Goldman. Let's see who was the... Glenn Campbell was the voice of Chanticleer.
    59:26
    I remember that. Oh, from the Eagles. Yeah, and the Duke. Christopher Plummer was in there. Yeah. Oh, man, I remember this movie. I've got to go watch it now. Not now. We have to finish recording. Glenn Campbell. Rock-a-doodle-do. I have a... Maybe in my pile in storage. He had a solo career after the Eagles. I have a CD. of him live somewhere. Oh, nice. It was a gift.
    59:53
    Because I didn't know anything about him. Yeah, Don Bluth. Speaking of 501st, this is the same type of non-Disney animation. Yeah. And last but not least, thank you, John, our newest, stinkiest member of the Screamin' Go Club. Some would say musky smelling. You are our Aqua Velva or our Brute or Old Spicer. There's something about an aqua-bomb of man. You shouldn't have. Yeah, I think something themed around drugstore cologne. CVS, please. Can we get a CVS pinball machine or Walgreens? If CVS is too expensive, get Walgreens. Which one do you go? They're both overpriced. Do you go to either one of them more than that? Walgreens is closer for me, so that's where I would go. What about for our Canadian listeners, like Tim Hortons and where they get their medicine? Yeah, Tim Green's or whatever they call their pharmacies. Yeah, so Aqua Velva, you're going to get a – what about a Rite Aid? You guys have Rite Aids? Yeah, Rite Aid. I think those are in the south.
    60:55
    Publix. We just had our happy hour hangout for the pinball show, Screaming Goat Club members and Nordman level members. But the next one is coming up in February, so make sure you're part of that group so that you can hang out with us. The last one was – they all have their different energies and theming, but they're all a highlight for me each and every month. It's on Discord right now. You guys are talking about stupid two-toned watches.
    61:22
    That's about it. Oh, my God. I almost forgot about the most important thing that everybody hears in pinball twice a month. Pinball! Rock-a-doodle-doo! Market Trends!
    61:33
    It's a Bob Cannon Techno War! I like your style, dude. Turning up this week, Dennis, all I'm hearing about over the last two weeks is nothing but Harry Potter hype. You're a wizard, Harry. Oh, my gosh. Everybody's wands are all hard, ready to go. Have you not fallen into the Harry Potter hype?
    61:58
    I mean, no, I guess not. It's dripping, Dennis. It's dripping. I guess not. I mean, I'm curious about the theme integration and how the game plays. I've seen the movies. I've seen several of them multiple times. I haven't read the books. I don't own any of the movies, so it's just not a theme that I love.
    62:17
    It's a theme that I think is a great theme. I can't criticize the decision to do it. It's probably the – I would say it is the best theme that has never been done in pinball. So I'm curious from that, but I think of it as more of an intellectual curiosity simply because I'm not beholden to the theme like a lot of people are. Do you think they sell 5,000 units of Harry Potter side-end scene? not so it doesn't seem like they sell 5,000 without people saying it but without you saying the rumored harry potter do you think they'll sell 5,000 if it is in fact harry potter
    62:49
    no it will it will require a degree of quality to reach that sold 5,000 gnr they sold over i know but gnr uh in terms of well it wasn't my favorite game to play i had mostly experience on the standard edition but just the concept the theme integration was brilliant on GNR. Brilliant. And GNR also benefited from a lot of pandemic sales where people were stuck at home, and Harry Potter will not likely have that. Harry Potter.
    63:18
    The boy who lived. I'm going to say it surpasses $5,000. Yep. I'm going all in on that. I know. I also have to factor in the price increase. Oh! We'll see.
    63:30
    Unfortunately, trending down, speaking of Harry Potter, trending down is the entire company of Jersey Jack pinball if it's not harry potter wow if they are so what if they are sitting on five goes west right now and they're about to just be like kamikaze told us they have harry potter oh yeah but it doesn't matter what they come out with right now if it's not harry potter people are going to lose their minds game isn't harry potter saying people oh yes people will be even if well here's the thing there could be a degree of forgiveness if it's the other one that I know there was a lot of excitement. Not as much, but a lot of excitement. If it was Maverick or Top Gun. I thought you meant the Mel Gibson Maverick. Okay. I was like, damn. With the world's slowest ball lock? Absolutely not. What is slower? Is that little steam paddle boat slower than Jurassic Park Lost World with the Snagger? The Snagger.
    64:27
    Three minutes later. How can Greg like that game? The Snagger alone is the reason not to like that game. So good. All right. So turning up this week is Harry Potter hype. That's everything that people are talking about right now. I don't even know what could get them off of this trajectory, but it is nothing but fire hotness right now. Also turning up this week is what I'm going to call a balance in the force in the marketplace and pinball. Everybody, they love jumping on the prices are down, prices are down, everything's down. Okay, that's fine. Especially the newer stuff you're seeing, secondary market prices dropping down. Not here to argue that. But what I'm talking about with the Jedi Force, the balance in the Force is, I was researching for a straight down the middle, laugh all you want people, there is research that goes into that show, but we were doing, we're getting ready to do a top ten list, top ten bang for your buck pinball machines. And doing some research for that, all of these titles, Dennis, that five years ago pop up in your head like, oh my God, that's a lot of game for that. Oh, man, no longer are those low-priced games. What I have found is that availability, when availability is high, prices do come to drop. Like some of your newer release Stern Pros or Premiums, Jersey Jack games you see coming down. But the opposite is also true, listener, and that's what balances that force out. Gone are the days of like, even through pandemic hype, They have not come crashing down the way that everybody wants them to for their narrative. Things such as like Dirty Harry, even like Getaway, Pinball Magic, World Cup Soccer, hell, even Popeye. Those came top of my head when I was researching. Oh, those are good bang for your buck. There's like, no, I couldn't even say that anymore, Dennis, because those games, some of them are still overpriced. Like Dirty Harry? Five thousand something dollars? So what I found is, sure, some of the top games, newer games, availability on them are easy. But the ones that are harder to get now, they're coming towards the median as well. So we're getting a big bubble in the medium, in the middle of the pinball industry, where you're going to have 90s games that cost just as much as 2020 games. It's crazy, but that's how the market works, supply and demand. It's basic, 101. Yeah, there's the nostalgia for the 90 games up against the depth of the more modern machines. I just think, and the reason I want to put it in pinball marketing is I think people forget that. They think that just by default, everything is dropping at the same rate. And while that may be the case for certain genres of the products or the games within this hobby, it's not true. you'll see other things uphold or find a plateau where they meet some of the newer games. It was just interesting, more than anything. All straightening up this week. They're drying up, people. I told you. You've got to get your lotion out because you get that dried up skin. Godzilla 70th. For better or worse. You can't see the balls. They're drying up. We're out of them. A lot of dealers are out of them. They're gone. And I think that that one, you're going to see that one hold value better than the regular premium. And it may have a Monster's Premium black and white effect, where you start seeing that tick up towards the LE prices. Just saying. Give it a year. We'll see if I'm right or not. But I think that's where it's headed. Speaking of drying up, do you have a humidifier running in your house? I run one in my room, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Over this winter. I can't even breathe. Oh, I feel like everything is just like a desert, but it's freezing. I hate it. Unfortunately, trending down this week. There's nothing entertaining about this. I just have to report the facts here on Pinball Market Trends. It's Chicago Gaming Company's Pulp Fiction. Uh-oh. Wait a minute. They haven't even shipped all the LEs yet. I can say for sure the SEs are down in value, Dennis. Like the brand-new 8,000 or some of the Northeast sub-dealers.
    68:37
    Sorry. There's a joke that got me. Northeast sub dealers. That's not a, that's not a poke to the Northeast. It's a, it's a poke to oversaturation of sub dealers just coincidentally in that Northeast area, but they're selling them for like $7,000 or so. Oh my gosh. It's like, it was an inside joke, but only relevant to like dealers. I don't know. It's so stupid of me, but even Pulp Fiction, at least people, people have cooled. I don't think that's long-term. I think it'll, it'll go back up. It'll be fine. But right now, You can get a Pulp Fiction LE for lower than the people have been waiting two years. That's shocking. Also trending down this week is chargebacks, Dennis. I'm going to Seinfeld. What is the deal with chargebacks?
    69:22
    I think this should be illegal. Why is there a new president and stuff that's all boistering about all this economy shit? Hey, Trumpy, get rid of these chargebacks. They're fucking borderline illegal. I don't know how they're... So the reason I'm ranting, listen, Dennis, I think I told you this. This last, two weeks ago, I had a customer, a first-time customer, do a chargeback. Usually it's a chargeback of like something that got lost in the mail or something like that. Chargebacks are just bullshit, number one. If you don't just approach the company before you do a chargeback, you're a bad person. There, I said it. But this chargeback was for an entire damn pinball machine. They did a chargeback on an entire pinball machine. Wait for it. That they've owned for over three months.
    70:09
    They've owned it for like three months, and they did a full chargeback. So they took, three months later, took all the money out of the account of our company's account until they figure out who needs to be awarded this money. They have the pinball machine, Dennis. That's theft. What is this?
    70:27
    How can that even happen in 2025? You know why? These damn credit card companies have too much power.
    70:36
    Don't take credit cards then. PayPal's of the world. You get a monopoly, you can do anything. I don't even know how it's legal. So if they award this because they said it's not as advertised. Not as advertised. They've had it for three months. Had a trough issue the first week that was fixed, but then we didn't hear anything from them. And then boom. All of a sudden we get a charge back three months later. So if they awarded that, I'm just out an entire pinball machine? Isn't that theft? They can't.
    71:02
    For all the business owners out there that feel my pain, I'm with you. Chargebacks are for bitches. I'm going to get a t-shirt that says that.
    71:10
    Figure it out. Deal of the week this week is from Flippin' Out Pinball to help pay those chargebacks. Buy, buy, buy! Deal of the week from Flippin' Out Pinball is for a Black Knight 2000 pre-owned that we just listed a couple days ago. They have it for $44.99. It's got a brand new back glass because the one shattered in shipping. Decided to buy a brand new one. And it's got interior art blades. Pretty game. Man, what a game that is. $44.99. For you listeners, it's $4,099. Just dropped $400. Buy, buy, buy! What's the song I'm trying to think?
    71:43
    Drop It Like It's Hot? No, not Drop It Like It's Hot. When the pimp's in the crib, ma. Drop it like it's hot. When the pimp's in the crib, ma. Drop it like it's hot. No. I walked by the showroom yesterday to go play. What was I playing? I went by to play Avatar. and it goes, beat the black knight. I was like, really? Okay. It's a chatty little attract mode on that game. Always trying to talk to me. Give me your money. Pinball bounty, as you know, I'm looking for a Congo Minty. I'm looking for Segas, don't judge. And I'm going to throw this in there, Data East, Dennis. Yeah, if you have a home use only, I want a clean ass shooter lane. A Batman? A hook?
    72:26
    Yeah, didn't stutter. I'll take a hook that is super clean. Last Action Hero, Tales from the Crypt, Star Wars, WWF Royal Rumble. Those are the ones I'm looking for. Give me nothing but new looking Data East and I will pay for it. And as always, I'm just here to report the facts because numbers don't lie. Neither do I. Never would. I'm Pinball Market Trends.
    72:49
    Where can people catch you, Dennis? You can always reach out at CollectiveGamersPodcast at gmail.com. Very cool. You can email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. follow us on Facebook I think Instagram chat and discord with us straight down the middle of video series I do as we talked about at the head of the show there we got 2024 pinball review 2025 pinball sneak peek see how close I am in my predictions this or that, this or that too the empire flips back and coming soon another top 10 and a reviewed game all of that and more straight down the middle go follow, we're trying to get to 20,000 subs by the end of the year, that's our goal And unlike most people that just purchase them, we're trying to legit do them the – Well, you're almost at 17,000. Yeah, almost at 17,000. So we have to crank out some more videos. And, of course, thank you. It goes out to the sponsor of the show, which is me. So it's kind of weird to thank myself. But whatever it is, Flippin' Out Pinball.
    73:55
    product showcase this week is the interested lists i you know what we need to do we need to do one exclusive episode maybe go through the flipping out pinball interested list titles to everybody because i only create a list if somebody requests that rumored game and i think people will be surprised by how little there are in some of the different titles. Everybody's like, oh man, that would be a great pinball machine. But then when I go to my interest list, I'm like, there's not anybody on there. But then another title, you'd be like, oh shit, that many people want that? I think that might be interesting. But get on the interest of the list now for something as rumored as Harry Potter and Medieval Madness. I don't know. King Kong is a rumored game. What's a rumored game you're thinking of, Dennis? Oh, Top Gun Top Gun, yep Might be a surprise at how little people are on Top Gun Matrix, who knows Dungeons and Dragons, right now we've got LE spots available, first run premium spots And believe it or not, I believe we have some Pros that can go too So bye bye bye Metallica Remastered pre-orders for March We still have some spots left Uncanny X-Men with Fix Kit I'll send that to you too Pro premiums in LEs John Wick, Godzilla's Jaws Jurassic Park, Labyrinth, Pulp Fiction, Avatar If you hear anything you like, people like Elton John How about Evil Dead, Black Knight, Beatles Let's get it Venom, Rush, Stranger Things, Mandalorian Vaulted Games, Soon to be Vaulted, Elvira Foo Fighters, Deadpool, Iron Maiden Cactus Canyons, Toy Stories, Scoobies The Trade-In Program, don't be afraid to trade in Your pinball machine for something brand new Flippin' Out Pinball I think we offer the best trade-ins Just hit me up at ZachZACH at FlippinOutPinball.com Flippin' Out Pinball YouTube channel this week with Joel Engelberth. He's going to be streaming, I don't know, if Stern can get us that Dungeons & Dragons LE like Monday or Tuesday here, we'll be streaming that. If not, then it might be a surprise stream of sorts. Then to surprise these people is something. Well, when I think back to one of the hit pinball machines from Stern Pinball, Lord of the Rings, and I think about the movies that game is based on, and I remember that Golem has to ask Sam at one point, what's Tater's Precious? it's not supposed to be Alice from Alice Goes to Wonderland. Fix her potato face. And maybe the rest of the art. Fix all of it. And always practice safe pinball. Mustard. I can even do the rapid.
    76:35
    To me? To you. This is your microphone test. One, two, three. Modern. Not modern. Modern. My modern test. Midwestern. You know what? I probably do say that too. Fuck, we were taught, we're really the only proper way to speak. I don't listen to what Oxford Dictionary says, they're a bunch of Brits. Yeah, that's right. Tilly ho ho and tea and all this fancy UK stuff. We perfected the language. Scones. Yeah, scones. Scones. They're fucking biscuits. Muffin with delusions of grandeur. Twinkle, twinkle, little bat. How I wonder what you're at. Up above the world you fly like a tea tray in the sky.