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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 74 - Travis is an Adult today?

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 43m·analyzed·Jul 11, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.022

TL;DR

Pinball designers face impossible task balancing game depth, accessibility, and price point across diverse player demographics.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Podcast Episode 74, hosts Joel and Tom are joined by guest Retro Ralph to discuss recent pinball releases: Transformers, Pokémon, Sonic, and Totem. The conversation centers on game design philosophy, code depth, accessibility vs. complexity, and how designers balance appeal across casual players, collectors, and competitive enthusiasts. Key discussion points include Elizabeth Gieske concept of 'pinball pacing' in Transformers, Pokémon's simplicity and community reception, and the tension between approachability and the $10,000+ price point of modern machines.

Key Claims

  • Elizabeth Gieske designed Transformers with 'pinball pacing' in mind—ensuring players always feel one or two shots away from something meaningful, not stuck in repetitive play.

    high confidence · Joel explaining Gieske's design philosophy after streaming with her on Transformers

  • One Shall Fall (Transformers mini wizard mode) is relatively easy to access but can be customized via perks from prior modes, creating variable difficulty and replay value.

    high confidence · Detailed explanation by Joel of the mode mechanics and its design intent

  • Transformers received a code update changing multiball qualification from hitting VUX six times to bashing Optimus, then locking balls in sequence.

    high confidence · Ralph and Joel discussing the rule change and its impact on gameplay flow

  • Retro Ralph toy in Transformers isn't consistently making ramp shots (~90% success, working with Stern Pinball).

    high confidence · Ralph directly stating the issue and current troubleshooting status

  • Pokémon pinball is too simple/lacks code depth for experienced players but is highly approachable and likely performs well on location.

    high confidence · Ralph and Tom both noting simplicity, early gameplay completion, and ease of multiball access

  • Keith Elwin stated that at $10,000+ price points, games need $10,000+ worth of content/depth to justify the cost.

    high confidence · Tom paraphrasing Elwin from a prior interview about Munsters backlash

  • Godzilla is cited as a gold standard for balancing novice and expert play, allowing casual players to feel accomplishment while supporting deep competitive play.

    high confidence · Joel citing Travis's repeated praise of Godzilla and describing the design balance

  • Ralph sold his Pokémon machine after 3-4 weeks because the simple layout combined with lack of theme familiarity made it not worth occupying a collection spot.

    high confidence · Ralph explaining his decision to flip the machine and reasoning behind it

Notable Quotes

  • “The goal is she wants everybody when you drain in pinball, you want to have been one or two shots away from something cool. Because otherwise, if you get in that point in certain game code where you're just chopping wood... she called it pinball pacing.”

    Joel @ ~mid-episode — Core design principle introduced by Elizabeth Gieske that reframes how to evaluate game feel and player engagement

  • “If we're charging people $10,000 plus for a game, we need the game to have $10,000 plus worth of content.”

    Keith Elwin (paraphrased by Tom) @ ~mid-episode — Industry perspective on pricing justification and the expectation gap between casual and serious players

  • “He just wants it to be immediately fun and satisfying... he sets his games up brutally hard. He doesn't want a long playing game at all.”

    Joel @ ~late-episode — Illustrates the diversity of player preferences and the design challenge of accommodating all playstyles

  • “However you want to do it, really. He's an enthusiast. And that's what I'm realizing the more that we do this hobby is we all do it differently, and none of us are doing it the right way or the wrong way.”

    Joel @ ~late-episode — Philosophical acceptance of diverse player motivations, setting up the design dilemma discussion

  • “If you as a manufacturer, as a designer, design for that clientele? When your clientele is like, yeah, I want to grab that nine-year-old who plays pinball for the first time in his life... But then I also want to keep Escher Lefkoff entertained... It's impossible. It's impossible.”

    Joel @ ~late-episode — Articulates the core tension facing modern pinball designers across competing market segments

  • “I had one. I streamed it. It's gone... I just thought it was too easy. I'm sure they're going to put more into the code and maybe at that point I'll go, okay, you know, like maybe I want to get this back in.”

    Retro Ralph @ ~mid-late-episode — Demonstrates the secondary market fluidity of recent releases and player expectations around code development post-launch

Entities

JoelpersonTompersonTravispersonRetro RalphpersonElizabeth GieskepersonKeith ElwinpersonTransformersgame

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Elizabeth Gieske's 'pinball pacing' concept—designing so players always feel 1-2 shots away from meaningful progression rather than stuck in repetitive play—is emerging as a key design principle influencing code development and reception.

    high · Joel's detailed explanation of Gieske's streaming discussion and multiple references to Transformers implementing this successfully via One Shall Fall accessibility

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Modern premium pinball machines are increasingly shipping with foundational but shallow code, with developers planning substantial post-launch updates. Players are becoming impatient with incomplete launch states at $10k+ price points.

    high · Ralph's Pokémon experience (initial enthusiasm, rapid decline), discussion of code expanding over time, Keith Elwin's $10k+ content justification argument

  • ?

    product_concern: Transformers experiencing consistent Megatron toy ramp shot issues (~90% success rate) on at least Ralph's unit, requiring Stern Support intervention.

    high · Ralph explicitly stating the issue and current troubleshooting with Stern Support; distinct from the known pre-update VUX shot design issue

  • $

    market_signal: Pokémon machines are turning over quickly in secondary market—both Ralph and Tom flipped machines after short ownership (3-4 weeks), indicating weak hold-out from experienced players despite strong location appeal.

    high · Ralph and Tom both confirming rapid sales/trades of Pokémon units, citing simplicity and lack of personal investment in theme

  • ?

    collector_signal: Experienced collectors like Ralph operate under strict inventory limits (10-spot collections) and are becoming more strategic about retention, flipping machines that don't justify their footprint.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.069

0:00
We, we, we're three guys who like the talking ball. So we came up with a clasp our name. We're Joel and Travis down with talking ball. And we call ourselves Triple Drink, Triple Drink, Triple Drink. We're Triple, Triple Drink. All right. All right. We are here. Where the hell is Travis? It's a great question. It's been a while. It's been a while. This is how we start every episode. It's gone longer than we thought. And yeah, once again, there's three of us crazy busy. And I finally was like, we've been trying to record for, I don't know, two weeks. And I was like, all right, guys, we're going to record Friday. We have to record Friday. And Travis was like, can't do it. I got adulting that he had to do. He had like too much stuff he had to do. And he's like, at this point, he goes, if we need to record, just, you know, get a fill in, basically. And so I said, Tom, who do you want? And Tom's first choice was Retro Ralph. Retro Ralph, you were here. I was just like, Joel has a beard, I have a beard. Why not get somebody else who has a beard? Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's, I honestly, we're recording this during the day on Friday. And it's hard to find schedules that line up. And I know we all have work schedules. Tom's got it easy. He takes Fridays off. But Ralph, luckily you were able to fit it into your work schedule. I'm here. And hey, we're excited to record. We're excited to record.
1:33
But yeah, we'll come back. Fitted in, Joel, is a little bit. Fitted in or playing hooky would be probably more accurate. We don't want to get anybody in trouble. Yeah, depending on who's asking, right? But anyways, we got a lot to talk about. And honestly, Ralph, we're excited to have you on here because of the topics. Just a heads up, the topics are going to be Pokemon, Transformers, Sonic, and Toten. So we'll probably sprinkle in plenty more along the way. But what's great, Ralph, is you've had all of those games, not Toten, but you've had them all. So we're going to be able to dip into your overall opinion, your overall thoughts on these recent releases. But, yeah, let's start with Transformers. Why not?
2:17
  • Interium arcade in Chicago is divesting from pinball, moving machines to a hidden back room where casual visitors wouldn't notice them.

    medium confidence · Ralph describing his recent visit and observations about venue management changes

  • Pokémon Company licensing constraints may be limiting code development possibilities that designers had initially envisioned.

    medium confidence · Ralph speculating on licensing barriers during Pokémon discussion

  • “It just really didn't grab me... The simplicity of it, it's all here. And then it was like over the next few days, I realized I'm seeing Jarzard every time. This game's really simple.”

    Retro Ralph @ ~late-episode — Captures the rapid enthusiasm decay when code depth doesn't match initial hype for experienced players

  • “There's fun in simple. Simple can be really fun.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~late-episode — Counterpoint to complexity-only mentality; suggests simplicity can be a valid design choice

  • “I only have 10 spots and if it's going to occupy a spot, I have to be sure that that game's one that I want to stick around for a little while.”

    Ralph @ ~mid-late-episode — Illustrates collector constraints and strategic thinking about limited space, affecting retention vs. flipping decisions

  • “It's kind of like trying to stack the best mode with a multiball... it's just something you got to kind of try different things and kind of dial it in.”

    Tom @ ~early-mid-episode — Reveals competitive tournament strategy for Transformers, showing strategic depth still being discovered

  • Pokémon
    game
    Sonicgame
    Totemgame
    Guardians of the Galaxygame
    TNAgame
    Godzillagame
    Jawsgame
    Munstersgame
    Harry Pottergame
    The Avengersgame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Derekperson
    Jennyperson
    Interiumvenue
    Scott Deniseperson
    Ryan McQuaidperson

    high · Ralph explicitly stating he only keeps games he're 'over the moon excited about' in limited collection space

  • ?

    design_innovation: Transformers' One Shall Fall mode uses variable perks (drops as hits, drain immunity, shot relights) to create dynamic difficulty based on prior mode performance—a sophisticated approach to balancing novice and expert play.

    high · Joel's detailed breakdown of mode mechanics and their variable difficulty outcomes

  • ?

    community_signal: Community discussion reveals fundamental tension: pinball designer must simultaneously appeal to casual nine-year-olds, collectors with theme fandom, competitive tournament players, and players like Derek who reject learning and prefer brutal difficulty. Current consensus: impossible to optimize for all segments.

    high · Extended dialogue about Derek's playstyle, Harry Potter learning curve, competitive vs. casual appeal, and Joel's concluding statement on impossibility

  • ?

    venue_signal: Interium arcade in Chicago undergoing management change with apparent shift away from pinball; machines relocated to hidden back room, reducing casual visibility and likely revenue.

    medium · Ralph's recent visit observations and description of hidden back room location, comments on management change

  • ?

    product_launch: Transformers received significant multiball qualification rule change post-launch (VUX 6x → Optimus bash sequence), indicating active development and potential for future updates. Players acknowledge this as normal modern launch pattern.

    high · Detailed discussion of pre/post-update multiball mechanics and player expectations for ongoing code improvements

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Tom (top 100 player) still discovering tournament strategy for Transformers weeks into ownership, suggesting non-trivial rule depth despite Ralph finding code simplistic—possible skill-level dependency in perceived complexity.

    medium · Tom stating he hasn't found optimal mode stacking strategy, high score ~500M without completing modes

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pokémon's community reception appears to be declining post-launch. Initial FOMO and strong sales are not translating to collector retention—experienced players view it as approachable but ultimately shallow without personal IP connection.

    high · Ralph's rapid flip, Tom's brief ownership, emphasis on it being good for locations/new players but not for enthusiasts

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Ralph speculates that Pokémon Company licensing is constraining code development possibilities, limiting ambitious features developers initially envisioned. May explain gap between launch simplicity and eventual depth plans.

    medium · Ralph mentioning licensing challenges preventing 'exciting ideas' from being implemented at launch

  • Tom, you have yours as well, right? I do. It's right over there. Yeah, and you got the LE. Yes. I think Travis had talked you into the LE before.
    2:28
    Like, I think he pushed you over the edge. He forced me to get it. Yes, forced you. So you got one, and I know, Ralph, you just got yours as well. Initial thoughts from the two of you guys. I have not seen the LE. I have not played the LE. I only had the Pro. So just initial impressions right off the bat. Tom, go for it. Beautiful cabinet. Expression lights are amazing. Good game. No transformer, though. No transforming. But we knew that. We knew that. Yes, true. True. Ralph, similar thoughts? Yeah, I loved it when we went for media day and checked it out. So we were able to play all three of them there. They had the Pro Premium and Limited. I got the Limited too, so Tom, we're in the Limited Club right now.
    3:17
    I really like a lot about it. There's not a lot I don't like. The one thing that stands out to me, and I know everyone has been kind of like repeating this, but ever since Elizabeth got involved with Jaws and did a lot of the cool modes that she put into Jaws and some of her touches, I always felt like she was kind of going to bring something very interesting to pinball because she just, It's just you could tell she's someone that really likes pinball and understands what people like. And so the first thing that stands out to me with this game is just how much code is in it right now. Yeah. And how fun she made it. Like the one thing that I just love is I love that I can play two modes and maybe I complete them and maybe I don't. Yeah. But then I have one shall fall available to me. And that's just so, as a Transformers fan, that mode, the music and what you're having to do and the music and everything else, it just, it creates this fun moment where it's like, all right, I'm pumped up. I'm ready to take down Megatron. And it's just, that's a lot of fun. And I think that comes from her understanding like what someone that plays pinball is looking for. Yeah. Looking for some fun, a good time. And to give you, I don't know if she's calling that a mini wizard mode. I would call it that. To give you access to a mini wizard mode that easily.
    4:38
    And maybe it's a little harder for someone that's like a beginner player. Sure. It's something to work up to if you're a beginner player. And it's something that if you play a lot, you can get to in the beginning of the game and have some more fun with the code.
    4:52
    The one thing that I had a problem, I am having a problem with my Megatron right now. He's not making the ramp 100% of the time. Oh, really? Yeah, the ball's not always landing on the ramp. I'm working with Stern Support to fix that. I got it like 90% of the way there. Okay. But I like the unique layout. I know we're going to talk about Pokemon later, or Pokemon. I sometimes get sick of, and this is something that I remember maybe it was last time I was on, or maybe it was in our chat that we have with Travis. We talk a lot about different layouts and things like that. And I think I'm starting to get like more of a what do I actually want out of a pinball machine? And sometimes I get a little less interested when it's a fan layout. Although, you know, you could argue that Sonic is too. I know we're going to talk about that. But I think the layout's cool. And it's like from someone that's newer in designing and you went from WIC and now you have this. And I feel like, you know, outside of the drama that was around the optimist thing, which it'd be easy to just laser focus on that. The rest of the package is really good. Yeah, no. So, yeah, a few things there. So One Shall Fall, just for people that don't know, what's cool about this game and the way that Elizabeth designed it is the modes are lit by default. You don't have to do anything to qualify a mode. All you have to do is get the drops out of the way or a drop out of the way and then get the ball into Megatron. And that's how you'll start a mode. And you could start a mode and drain. I think maybe you have to hit one shot. I don't know. But I think you just literally have to start a mode and that counts. And then so ball two, you could do the same thing. You still have to qualify mode. You just have to get a drop out of the way, get to Megadron. Boom, you started your second mode. If you do that, then this one shall fall mini wizard mode is lit and it's lit on the right ramp. So for a complete novice, even that's it. Just like I remember when we were streaming at Jared, it's like, all right, that doesn't just start a mode. You don't have to beat it. But if you do that, boom, then right ramp, that's the hardest part of the whole process is just hitting that right ramp. But once you and it's not that it's a bad shot, it's just compared to what I've just explained. That's the hardest part. You hit that right ramp, you start one shall fall. And it's a mini wizard mode, unlimited ball save where you're battling Megatron. You're trying to hit purple shots, right? And then red shots. Avoid the red shots. Yeah. But what's brilliant is the fact that she made it. There are five modes, and depending on the two modes that you played will give you perks during that mini wizard mode. So that mini wizard mode can feel completely different depending on the two modes that you brought into it. For example, the drops might count as hits. So like those are really easy. One of the perks is that. Or another perk is by draining, it doesn't damage you. That's a really good perk. Or there's another one where it like relights major shots. So she's made a mini wizard mode that's relatively easy to achieve for anybody with any bit of skill. But yet you can challenge yourself by how you prepared or how you went into it. And then obviously the values go up too based on, I think it's like your energon cubes or whether or not you beat the mode. She's given so much variety in this thing that feels cool and unique, but it also, I don't think it's going to get old Because of the variety that you can bring into that mode. Do you guys already, I mean, Tom, with your tournament brain, do you already have like a, I don't know, I'm going to do this mode and this mode, boom, every time? Uh, kind of, not, not, yeah, I mean, I'm always feeling like, and this is usually my strategy for most games, it's kind of like trying to stack the best mode with a multiball. Okay. And I haven't quite found that mix yet, but I mean, it's just something you got to kind of try different things and kind of dial it in. I did want to touch on, like you said, your Megatron wasn't working right, Ralph. I haven't had one issue with mine. It's actually been great. One thing I really like on the Premium LE is that you kind of have like a combo. So there's like a combo system where you hit it into Megatron, it hits it down the ramp, you have to hit the ramp again, and it'll ward a combo, and then it'll lock the ball again, and then it'll move the cannon towards your upper flipper. Yeah, the right flipper, yeah. Yeah, and then you're supposed to hit Optimus Prime. I think that's pretty cool. You know, they're kind of making use for that. But other than that, You don't see a lot of use out of that can, at least I haven't, but it seems like more so that stuff. But no, as far as tournament strategy goes, I'm still working on that stuff.
    9:53
    But my high score right now is around like 500 million, which is not terrible. But I haven't I haven't seen like the like I haven't completed all the modes or anything like that yet. So you as like a top hundred player in the world, you haven't you haven't seen the end of the code yet? No, that's pretty amazing for these code. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, that's awesome. Did you guys play it pre I can't remember if either of you played it pre that update where I'm glad they changed this, though, I really didn't like the fact that you'd hit the VUX six times to start Transformers Multiball. I thought that was kind of weird. So now you have to bash Optimus.
    10:41
    That's the only way I've played it. I've played it that way, yeah. With the new update, you now bash Optimus, like you said, and then go for the... So now you hit Optimus and go in the VUX, and then the second time around you have to hit Optimus three times Before you can lock a ball and you got to repeat that sequence. And I think it's like five times after that. So it gets a lot harder. So you're only you bash Optimus once and then you lock a ball in the Vuc. You bash him once again, lock a ball, bash him once. So, OK, because that's yeah, when I was I was I was not I was the one where you had to hit the Vuc six times. And it's like that's because of where the shot is. It's it's it's not it's not that it's a hard shot. I just feel like I'm never aiming at it unless I'm purposely aiming at it. Like it doesn't mistakenly go into the buck. Like I wasn't accidentally getting locks or I wasn't accidentally starting multiball. It was one of those like, oh, crap, I should probably because I would go whole games without doing multiball because I wasn't thinking about it. I was so focused on doing modes or whatnot compared to certain other games where it's like, crap, I started multiball and I didn't even realize, you know, I was there. So that's interesting. I'm excited to see what that rule change is.
    12:04
    But one thing I want to bring up to you guys is when we streamed this, we had Gieske on and she was explaining some stuff. And she brought up something, and I know this has been mentioned before, and she gives full credit to Keeith Elwin, the person who taught her this. But she talked about pinball pacing, pinball pacing. And the idea was, and what happened was like, I drained or Jared drained and he's like, ah, I was one shot away from this. And then like, I finished my ball and I drained. I'm like, ah, I was one shot away from this. And she goes, she's like, I think I nailed it. We're like, what? She goes, that's the goal. She goes, the goal is she wants everybody when you drain in pinball, you want to have been one or two shots away from something cool. Like because otherwise, if you get in that point in certain game code where you're just chopping wood, you know, or like, man, I'm so many shots away or I've locked myself out of this or I've done this. So she she called it pinball pacing. It's it's and once she really brought that to my attention, it's really made me start to look at games differently or even at any moment. Like if I pause, if I cradle up right now, am I only a few shots away from something cool or or have I already seen everything and now I'm stuck, you know, What are your thoughts on that when I throw that out there? Honestly, every game should be like that. It's a hook.
    13:25
    I mean, you're basically... There's no better feeling than the feeling of accomplishment, like getting to a mini-wizard mode. For example, Guardians of the Galaxy, you get to Cherry Bomb. It's like an awesome feeling. All the balls are flying around. You're trying to hit all the shots and get in Groot's mouth, right? You know, and, you know, sometimes you're like one mode away. Sometimes you're a shot away. But those are the hooks that like keep you coming back for more because it's like I know I could do this. Yeah. But for some reason I can't. Now I want to keep trying until I do it. But where I actually where I struggle with Guardians. So like at your skill level, yeah. But I know like for a novice player, if the idea is you have to get halfway with six modes to get to group multiball. Four modes. So half the modes. Halfway. Or do you have to beat all four modes? You have to beat all four modes. But still. So let's say I start a game and I only beat two modes. And then you drain. You're like, ugh. Then you start again. And now this time I beat three modes.
    14:37
    It's like that's where I'm not. I don't feel like I'm just one or two shots. I felt like I was a whole mode. Like I don't – I'm not discrediting what you're saying. Yes, when you do – like that's one of those where the pacing, I feel like those are the ones where it's like, ah, do I want to play – do I want to play those same three modes again and hope I can beat my fourth mode to get to that? Because I agree, Cherry Bomb is like the best part of Guardians. I love that. But I feel like there are other games like TNA. I love TNA because I feel like TNA truly is one or two shots away from the next step. Or maybe it's just that next sense of accomplishment. There's nine of them, though. Yeah, but I'm saying the way it's paced with reactors. Not everybody is Ryan McQuaid. No, shout out to that, the fact that that was just on Games Done Quick. That was awesome. That was so cool to see him speedrun that. I actually reached out. Props on Ryan for doing it, but I reached out to Scott, and I was like, How cool is it that that was a homebrew that got manufactured and then here we are now being his game, his baby, is being played on stage. Awesome games done quick as a speedrun. So cool. But Ralph, what's your thought on, I mean, you're the young one out of the three of us when it comes to your pinball, which I think is great. But what are your thoughts on the more that you play it and what code really speaks to you? And what are you seeing that makes something good or bad or indifferent? Yeah, we were kind of talking offline a little bit. I just can't imagine the pressure that goes into being the software developer on any pinball machine because you have to balance the I want to give them things that make them feel like they're accomplishing tasks, even if they're novice players. But I also can't make it boring for someone like Tom who's going to just blow it up, you know. So I like when games give me a little bit like, okay, I'm a moderate to okay player. Give me some things and show me that I'm making progress. But I do like that. There's something really cool about the maybe slight anxiety something gives you when you're almost there and you don't achieve it. Because that for me, at least, as the games I like, it makes me want to come back and get to that thing. Yeah. But also the code has to be something where I don't have to for me, at least I don't want to have to go and like read an entire rule sheet. I like being able to discover it a little bit. And that was kind of something that early on when I started in the hobby, Travis was telling me, he's like, just play it to like learn it. And don't be so worried about the point system yet. Like worry about that after. So I like when games give me something, but I go, OK, cool. That's like my first milestone I'm trying to get to, but maybe I don't make it, like you said. And then it makes me want to press start again. I like games like that. But also I can make an argument for I like it when a game does something where let's say there's like three drop targets and I hit one down and then they don't reset the next time. So because maybe I'm going to get something if I can hit the other two and I'm not that good. Right. So I can kind of make an argument both ways, but that's the balance. It's like, how do you make it so that it's going to be fun for everybody? And I think that's like an impossible mission, I feel like, in a way. Yeah. And there's no, I don't know, I know on this, like if Travis was here, he'd talk about Godzilla because that's what he likes to talk about. And I think it's, well, he's set it as like a gold standard before of like such a good balance of it can be fun for novice, but also be awesome for the Carl D'Angelo's. It can. It's got the mechs. It's got the sound. It's got like and I do think I do think Godzilla is one of those games that really does so much right.
    18:26
    But, yeah, I do think like my dad loved playing Godzilla and I remember asking him why. And he goes, well, I had no idea what I was doing, but whatever I was doing felt like I was accomplishing something. And it's like because he was chipping away at like he never started a battle, but he you know, he was destroying the building, Whether or not he hit the building or hit the ramps, things were reacting, the lights show, the explosion, I don't know. That was something to me.
    18:52
    And I was over at my buddy Derek's house. He's got like 30 games. And Derek's a conundrum. Derek, if you're listening to this, dude, I don't know how to explain to you. I really don't. And I say that in the kindest way because he is an enthusiast of all. He goes through games. He is constantly getting new games. He's constantly buying games. But I also know he doesn't care to learn the game. At all? Not really. His wife really does. Jenny's great. She will learn a game.
    19:27
    Maybe not crazy deep, but she actually wants to know what to do to score well. And so they have a Harry Potter. So, Joel, can I ask you a question? Does it bother you if you go to Derek's house and there's a game that you know really well, And then he beats you knowing absolutely nothing about that game. It would bother me. It hasn't happened. It would bother me because Derek, so like they have a Harry Potter, right? And so I went over there and Jenny was like, she's loving it. Like she was loving Harry Potter. And Derek's like, it's good. I don't, there's a lot going on. I have no idea what's going on. I was like, do you want to know? Like, do you want to know what's going on? I'm like, let me, this is what's going on. This is how you start a lesson. Like once you're in this, this is how you do this multiball. And it's just like because he had put time on it, there was enough of a base that he was able to figure that out a little bit. Yeah, you got to for Golden Trio multiball, you got to spell their names for Quidditch. You got to do this. And it's like and what was funny in our group chat after I left was I said to GC that wasn't a humble brag, but that's what Jenny wants. She's like, give me the GC so she has something to beat. But then I taught her how to play it. And two days later, she sends me a picture. Like, she beat it, which is awesome. But Derek in our chat, he's like, Harry Potter is way better than I thought. Now I actually know a little bit what's going on. And I'm thinking, like, why don't you do that on every game? Why don't you want to learn every game? And the way that he wants to play pinball is he just wants it to be immediately fun and satisfying. And he's like, he gets bored. So he sets his games up brutally hard. Like he doesn't want a long playing game at all. He doesn't he doesn't want to get bored. So I've gone like he has an Avengers. Sounds like he needs an EM. Well, yeah, he's got that. Joel, you'd almost be bored of every game because you'd never really get that far. But I think his view is like he just goes, he plays for two, three minutes and then he just goes to his next game because he's got a huge collection. He's got like 30 games. So like Avengers. He has Avengers, which has an amazingly complex and intricate balanced rule system. And he's got the legs jacked up easily. That's at like seven and a half, eight degrees. Like I went to play it and I wasn't having fun on it because it plays so he has precision flippers in it. That's how it came. It shoots so fast. I'm like, here I am trying to play the game. And it's like this game is so brutal. I can't even play the game, but yet he loves it. He's like, I don't want to get rid of Avengers. I love it. I feel like that makes no sense to me. I almost feel like if you... Right? In the same way. Because if I was going to have that many, I'd almost want to see more of each game. Does he cycle games really fast then? I feel like I would cycle through them really fast. He cycles games fast, but here's the best part of all this is he's not wrong. I can't sit here and tell him he's doing it wrong. However you want to do it, really. He's an enthusiast. And that's what I'm realizing the more that we do this hobby is we all do it differently. We all do it differently, and none of us are doing it the right way or the wrong way. And if you realize that, how do you as a manufacturer, as a designer, design for that clientele? When your clientele is like, yeah, I want to grab that nine-year-old who plays pinball for the first time in his life. I want to grab him and want him to play more pinball. But then I also want to keep Escher Lefkoff entertained with the rule balancing that I built into this game. And I want to have enough wow factor to keep a person that's going to just loves the look and feel of a pinball machine. Like, it's impossible. It's impossible. And I applaud people for trying. That's all I can. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Speaking of nine year olds playing games, Pokemon. Pokemon, I want to talk about it. Are you saying that the game is made for nine-year-olds? Oh, yeah. Baby game. No, I'm not necessarily. Ralph, you had one, and it's gone, right? Yeah. I had one. I streamed it. It's gone. Tom, you bought one. It was gone. Yeah, you had one, streamed it, and it was gone. Pokemon? Pokemon. I never streamed it. I had it for maybe three or four weeks. Yeah, gone. Yeah, it just really didn't grab me. Like, I just thought it was too easy. I'm sure they're going to put more into the code and maybe at that point I'll go, okay, you know, like maybe I want to get this back in. But I just, it was, it was almost too basic for me. And like, and I think that's just more the pinball enthusiast in me. That's like, I just need a little something more here. Yeah. And so that's well, Ralph, it's it's left your house. Why? Why did it leave? Why did it leave your house? Well, it's funny. I'm going to tell a quick story, then I'll answer your question. But it's relating to Pokemon. So we I travel to Chicago a lot for work because I cover Chicago and my buddy Sean lives there. And so like every now and then I'm like, hey, are you anywhere near any place local, either Pinball Capital or somewhere? And he's like, actually, I'm kind of in the area around Interium if you want to go play. And Interium is weird right now because it seems like they're doing it almost feels like they're doing it. They're kind of divesting pinball over there. I don't know. My understanding is they've changed management there. And, yeah, it seems like pinball is kind of going away. I mean, they shoved it in this back room where you can't even see it. So you wouldn't even know if you came in and went through because it's kind of like natural for you to go to like the desk up front or go to the right. Unless you're bowling, you wouldn't even see it because it's tucked away in that like bowling area way in the back. Right. So it's kind of it's kind of a bummer. But we go there to play and they had just we didn't even know and they just got Transformers. And but but but I was like, oh, let's just play a couple games of some other things. And then then everything we wanted to play, people were on. So I was like, let's just play a quick game of Pokemon because Transformers right over there. And we're playing Pokemon. And he was like, he might as well. He could have had I could have had like a bunch of cold cuts out a sub He could have been like making a sandwich while he was playing I was like this doesn seem that fun anymore It just I don know after a while you just kind of I don know it lost its appeal But I will say, for me though, it's tough because I didn't really grow up with Pokemon. My kids did the Pokemon Go thing for a short period of time, and that was kind of it. I didn't have kids that were really into it, and it wasn't a theme I was really into. So I had that going. Going into it, it's hard if you're buying into a game where the layout is kind of simplistic and you didn't really grow up with the theme. I will say, though, just from a basic level, it is very fun to play, though. It's a fun game to just have a couple of games on. For me, it was a combination of a couple of things. I really do think they're going to have a struggle with the code based on the Pokemon company because it just seems like they have not really been able to do a lot of the things. They had a lot of really exciting ideas and I'm sure maybe eventually they'll get those things into it. But, you know, we all know that when you buy it into the new inbox thing for the majority of the time, you're going to get where you're going to get in the beginning and then it gets better over time. And I got a little impatient with it and then I thought, OK, this is taking up a spot in my collection where I think I'd rather have something else in here. Not to say it's not a good or fun game. I just felt like I didn't want it occupying a spot in my collection if I wasn't over the moon excited about it. So I just moved it on because of that. But I realize a lot of people what the appeal would be because it's pinball fun like you have. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of fun to be had with it. So I totally can see how someone would like it. I could see it being a great first game for someone because it's easy to explain what to do. Getting through the modes is fairly simple. Starting multiballs, there's a couple of easy options. I mean, hitting the ramp twice for the Pikachu one, that's, that's, is it twice? Three times. It's twice or three times. Those are all like really achievable things for someone new. So I get where it's popularity. Like I, it doesn't surprise me that it's selling well because of the theme and because it's, it is, you know, I know we use that word approachable a lot. It is really approachable. So, but for me, that was kind of, I have to think very strategically about, I only have 10 spots and if it's going to occupy a spot, I have to be sure that that game's one that But I want to stick around for a little while. I assume as like I say only that's a lot of spots, but yeah, yeah. I assume as a location owner, like if if I heard Pokemon was coming out, it'd probably be the probably the first game I'd want to get. Oh, yeah. You know, like I'm sure the game prints money on location. I don't even mean I'm not bare bones code. It has, you know, which isn't I mean, it's not to say the game's bad code wise, because it's not. It's just like, you know, when I went to media day, like I just felt like I got through the game very quickly.
    28:42
    And yeah, so what I what I find interesting with Pokemon is the first day I played it, the first day I streamed it, I was over the moon. I was like, this game is awesome. Like I loved it felt it felt it shot well. It was smooth, it was fast. I'm like, the simplicity of it, it's all here. And then it was like over the next few days, I realized I'm seeing Jarzard every time. This game's really simple. And then I quickly realized, it reminded me once again when we interviewed Keith Elwin, I had streamed Munsters a few nights before. And Jared and I loved it. The simplicity of Munsters. It's like, oh, you just do this, this, and this, and boom, you're in Munster Madness. And I remember asking Elwin, I said, like, do you, like, Munster's got a ton of crap from the pinball enthusiast crowd that the game's too simple. But, like, there's fun in simple. Simple can be really fun. Do you think we'll ever have a game like that again? And at the time, Elwin's like, you know, if we're charging people $10,000 plus for a game, we need the game to have $10,000 plus worth of content. That was his view. And it was like, huh, okay. And it's interesting streaming even a game like Toten where this game came out in the 90s. The code that's in this game is not deep. It's not like there was a time where that depth was okay. And I feel like that's where we're at with Pokemon. I'm really curious to see where this code is going to end up because if it's just going to be depth, not complexity of like, oh, yeah, you can just collect more or you can just go to more regions. And I don't know, like that's not as apt. I just feel like they designed this game for the masses. They did not design this game for the three of us. They designed it for just yesterday on Facebook. I saw Moonshot Games, our local board game store, bought Pokemon. They don't own any pinball machines. They posted that like something new for us. We bought Pokemon because they do card too. It's like, yeah, no wonder this game is crushing with sales. And I think by the vast majority of people that play it, Which are novice players, they probably love it. It's Pokemon. Yeah. So it's a success in Stern's eyes all day long, right? And I would assume this Pokemon's a success in pretty much every distro's eyes, too. If games are leaving the building at Stern, it's a success. Yeah. But here we are, the Pinsight crowd, and we're like, eh. I will say, though, you guys talk a lot about on the podcast, you have some pretty good discussions around what should someone's first game be. And I know Travis is big on theme. But I will say this. My first game was Jurassic Park. And if my first game was Pokemon, I would have felt a little better about myself at that time. Your skill level? Yeah. Jurassic Park is a tough game. That was a really hard game to start with. Yes. And so that's where I would almost disagree with Travis's pick the theme part because I was excited that it was Jurassic Park, but I wasn't making any progress toward anything, really. I mean, if I got T-Rex Multiball, I was like having a frigging party and inviting everyone over to celebrate. Like, because it was rough back then. So I can see, though, like if someone asked me what, and they did like Pokemon and they were looking at getting a new, like their first pinball machine, I could see what would make a really fun first at-home ownership experience for someone. A hundred percent. And I don't want anything that we've said to dissuade somebody from getting Pokemon. I don't want anything I say to dissuade anybody from any theme or pinball machine because when I got into the hobby early on, I took opinions very heavily of other people. And I found out later on, I shouldn't really listen to those people, you know, kind of thing. I enjoyed these games. And when I listen to other people, I don't really like it. You know, well, then I thought should I not like it? Exactly. And you bring up a good point, though, depending on skill level, you could think about this with anything. So I I went snowboarding with this. This is years and years, years ago. I went snowboarding with this guy and he's like, I knew he was like way better at snowboarding than me. And I think I'm pretty good. I'm not great, but I'm pretty good. And he he's like, all right, this is going to be the first trail we're going to hit. And the location we went to, I had never been to before. And he said, we go on like a double black diamond. And I told him before what my skill level was. So I'm like, really, that's the decision we just made? And I was struggling, man. I was fearing for my life in most, and I made it down, but I was like, okay. I had to have a conversation with him. I'm like, dude, I don't think you realize how much better you are. So for him, that trail was easy. But for me, that trail was, honestly, I thought I was going to die. Yeah. So but but like that he's the kind of person that he was like not taking into consideration my skill level at all. Like he completely didn't care. But that's the thing with pinball. If someone's awesome at pinball, their game recommendation might be something completely out of touch for my skill level. So it's a good point. It's a really good point. And I would say as as content creators, not to like pat ourselves on the back or give us something we don't like. I don't know. I agree. I don't want I want people to enjoy the hobby more from listening to our content. And that's not me trying to shill it like, oh, bye, bye, bye, everything. It's just like I love this hobby. I know the two of you guys love this hobby and I would love for other people to love it, too. So I would never want. Yes, I would never want anything we say to bum somebody out or be like, oh, I was all in. I was ready to go on Pokemon. But now these three idiots are telling me it's too it's too simple. Like, never mind, I'll go buy a boat. It's like, you know, like, I don't know. But that's a side tangent. Anyways, Pokemon is cool. I would like to stream it again in the future. I think it's an amazing location game. I will gladly put quarters in it when I go on location and play it. And while you guys were talking, I thought, like, my buddy Derek doesn't like Pokemon. Like, it's a theme that doesn't resonate with him. But, like, I think Pokemon would be a great game for him. He doesn't want to learn the rules and he wants something that plays fast and just gives you immediate like boom. Oh, look, Meowth Multiball or Team Rocket Multiball. Boom. Oh, look, he's in Pikachu Multiball. Oh, look, like it's got all the stuff there for that immediate satisfaction kind of stuff. Absolutely. Okay, so another game that I think is immediately satisfying is Sonic. I am personally loving Sonic. I'm going to get to you, Ralph. Tom, have you played it yet? Yes, I actually went to Jersey Drak. I called them up. That's right. Get me in. I don't care what I have to do. No, I'm just kidding. I asked if I could come check it out and I were more than willing.
    35:42
    Got to talk to Joe Katz and Eric and it was a lot of fun. I thought the game was really enjoyable. And I actually had one on order. I canceled it for now because I just got two games in. Yeah. So I literally got Transformers and Beetlejuice and I'm like, I got to pump the brakes a little bit. Yeah. So, yeah. So, but I have a feeling I'll probably get it sooner than later. Sure. Yeah. OK, so let's put a I'm going to I'm going to ask you about Beetlejuice, but we'll stay on Sonic for a second. So that's I knew you had a good initial impression. I remember you messaged our chat about that. Yeah. Ralph, you've unboxed it. I know you and Rudy streamed it. Yeah. You know, you've had it what a week now, two weeks. Like what are your what's your initial thoughts on the game? Yeah, I first of all, I love the fact that it's it's as fast as it is. I love that because I feel like it's they I think it was purposeful to say Sonic's fast. Let's make the game fast. Got to go. So I love that part of it. I think the thing that's interesting, though, from having friends, I had a couple of friends over. So like of different skill levels and and everyone like the the baseline thing is, oh, my gosh, this is so fun. Now, they're both Sonic fans. So that was also cool. But they were like, oh, my gosh, I love this. This is so fun. And the thing that they thought was going to be the deterrent was the upper playfield. They're like, oh, man, I don't know how I'm going to like the upper playfield. But once you and of course, you're going to go up there the first time for most people. And it's you're not going to really realize what's going on or how to play it well. And then you're going to drain and it's but you're not going to you're not going to have the new ball. It's just going to go back to your left flipper and you and you can continue. But they really had a lot of fun with that. And then once they started learning it, I was like, well, those shots can get you like progressive. I can't remember what platform Generations was on, but whatever. Is it Sega Saturn? I don't know. Dreamcast? I don't know. I have it on my Switch. I actually downloaded it because I wanted to get more familiar with it because I actually never played Generations. But I like the idea that you're going through zones. I like the idea that you can do different things to get to the final boss that will help you, you know, help you in each one of those zones. Like if I'm going to collect emeralds and collect rings and the more I do and the faster I do it, I'm going to get tiered differently when I finish it. So each individual zone can be also challenging. Let's say I want to focus on Green Hill. I can go, I really want to S-tier Green Hill. And so I can just focus on that if I want. That's all I'm going to do. I'm going to try to get really, really good at this one or that one. I really like the Chaos Emerald and the Chaos Control thing where I have timed zones that I can actually pause the timer and give myself a better chance. I think that is a cool element they put into it. I also love the bash. I can't remember. Is it bash? No, not bash. Bash. Bash is a left shot, right? That's bash, right? Yeah. I like that. That's actually pretty challenging, though, for me. During multiple. I'll lock it once and I'll be lucky if I hit it one additional time to get the multiplier.
    39:31
    I'm trying to figure out how I can get better at that left shot. That shot's pretty tough. But overall, I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying it a lot.
    39:41
    It's unfortunate that some of the feature modes aren't in it yet because I keep qualifying casino. I think it's casino nights and I can't do it yet. So that's cool because there's more to come. But, you know, I don't think it's easy to integrate a video game property into a pinball machine. And I feel like they did a really good job doing that. Yeah. The only feedback I get from people, people are constantly asking me now that they know I've played it. They're trying to, number one, pin it against other Jersey Jack games, this or that. This or Harry Potter. And that's so hard because you look at Harry Potter in this game, they're so different that that alone, I go, well, first of all, they're very different games. So now I'm going to go back to like what theme speaks to you more and then we can like back end into the game.
    40:28
    But yeah, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. But the thing about having it at home and playing it 200 times is, of course, now I'm now I'm like craving the additional stuff that's sure. Sure. Which. Yeah. So a few things when it comes my my son. So I had Pokemon here for like well over a month. And I will tell you, he's six and he has played Sonic more. Oh, wow. It's not that he's a bigger fan. It's just like he is he has gravitated more to this game and he's played it more. And I think there's part of Pokemon that's actually kind of hard. Like starting the Team Rocket multiball is not the easy. Like the game can be fast. So it's not I don't know, at least for Calvin, like he did struggle with that. But he's really enjoyed Sonic. My buddy Chris and his son O came over today. He lives locally, so normally when I have games, it's like, yeah, guys, if anybody wants to come over and try and give it a shot. Chris came over, I explained a little bit of the game, and he loved it. Chris was just like, dude, I just have a smile on my face. Once he figured out how to get to the upper playfield consistently, that upper playfield plays so well. And there's so many good shots up there. The fact that if you hit up the middle, it'll kick the ball out to the right flipper. You can hold the right flipper up and it'll bounce over and get to the left flipper. You have control, even with that huge gap, up there to do what you want to do. Which is really or I've even and I bet you guys have to where you can have it kind of go off the right flipper, bounce off the middle post and get over to your left flipper. Like you actually have really cool control and there's so many unique shots up there.
    42:11
    Awesome. Another thing that Sonic has done so well, and this is my this has been my biggest complaint with JGP games for a long time, is they make beautiful games with amazing lighting. But if all the lights are going at all times, you have no idea what you're going to do. And this complexity and then also with everything stacking on top of each other, it's impossible. They didn't do that with this. They have more LEDs in this playfield than any of their other games. But when you're actually playing, almost all the inserts are off. They're off. Only the inserts that matter are on. So at quick glances, when you're like, oh, I need to get to my next checkpoint, only the blue inserts are on. That's it. There's nothing else distracting you, getting in the way. But then you hit your shot and it's like, all the inserts will turn on with a really good animation, you know, like quick grab. And it's like I whoever I don't know if that was like a team meeting or what, you know, like what's our biggest complaint? You know, it's too much all the time. They they figured it out like this. This game has a better light show than all their previous games. And also it communicates better, in my opinion, than all their previous games. Have you noticed that, Ralph? No, I agree with that. And only because when Rudy came over, he played like maybe two games before he streamed it. And I was like, all right, blue. I remember when you're going through a Sonic game and you have checkpoints. Those are your blue shots. And he's like, OK, well, what do those do? I was like, super simple. Look at the LCD if you can. Glance at it every now and then. It'll tell you how many more checkpoints you have to get before you can do your Eggman battle. He's like, OK, that's cool. And I was like, but when you're doing that, if you want to collect rings, those are your yellow shots. And I was like, and what's cool about that is you can get an extra ball if you get 100 of those. He's like, okay. He understood it really quickly. And we all know there's way more than that to it. But that's cool to be able to give someone that basic outline of what to do. And he was having fun right away. And I do agree that when we played Harry Potter the first time, his comment to me was, and I love that game, by the way. He was just like, man, I don't know what, there's so much going on. Yeah, Jared was the same way, 100%. Like that's Jared's view on Harry Potter. I played Harry Potter over at Derek's house and once again I'm like this game is so good. Like Harry Potter truly is incredible. But I know I've spent the time to know what to do, to learn how to do it. My brother on the other, like he just was so overwhelmed in the two times we streamed it he's like nah. Like he just, Jared's like nah, too much, too much. Yet like immediately he latched onto Sonic. Like just because it rewards you, just go fast. You're not overthinking it. You're just trying to just play, just hit the blue shots. And it's simple without being boring or simple. Like, I don't know, like he can actually beat a zone and start getting into another zone and the zones get more complicated. The fact that before you plunge, you can hit the middle button and try other zones. If you really want to challenge yourself, go higher up on that ladder and try some of the other zones. And those shots are a lot harder. You have to hit shots multiple times to get the checkpoint. I think it's brilliant. Another thing that they did, which I think is so, so good, we've talked about this before on the podcast, is you don't want to hide a mech behind code, right? You don't want people to not experience a mech. And the fact that when you hit start, Eggman comes out and you can't do anything else. You can't progress anything else in the game for 20 seconds because it wants you to get up top. So it's teaching you right up the middle or left ramp. This is what you're going to do just to get up there and bash him one time.
    45:55
    Like that's I do you guys know of another game that does something like this? Because if you drain, he laughs at you, you know, and he goes away and they kick the ball out and then you start. But it's like the fact that they give you that for every single person that hits start has a chance to experience that mech. Without there being a penalty is brilliant. I think that is so well done. And if you do it, there's a reason to do it. If you do it, then it increases the value of your boss battle jackpots or whatever. But it's just to have that at the beginning of every game I think is so smart. And I don't know of another game that has some crazy mech that you want to interact with. And I mean like Batman 66, you got that crane mech. But unless you start the penguin, you're never going to see it, you know, and I'm not saying anything against Lyman, but it's that was the first thing that pops into my head. Like, I, I don't know. I, I mean, I'm trying to think of a game that I, Jaws popped in my head, but like Jaws, the shark, the shark pops up. Like, that's something that almost anybody can see. Right. Most people will see the shark pop up at some point. I don't know. Do you guys? I mean, I guess you could say in a way John Wick encourages you to bash the car right away, but not like it does in Sonic. No. I don't know. I'm trying to. If anybody's listening and yelling at their car radio or whatever, send us an email at triplegrain.gmail.com or comment below. Don't get into an accident. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just think that was really, you want to make sure if you're going to put really cool mechs in a game, you want everybody to experience it. But also not immediately get bored of it either. And I'll tell you, I've battled Eggman many, many, many times. And that's not boring. The way he moves around, the way that he gets out of your way. Oh, yeah. The up and down was a brilliant. The fact that they got that mech to go right to left and up and down is cool. I didn't fully get that the first couple times I played it and I was like, oh my gosh, as I'm progressing, he's going up and down a lot more and you're missing him. And if you set it up right, you can kind of miss him and still keep the ball up there. But sometimes you don't. And then there's that tension. He went up. I missed it. But that's the cool moment because you're like, oh man, yeah, you said you got to get back up there. So that gets you excited to go back up there. Yeah, it's cool. That mech is really neat in a way like what it does. Like that's it's it's really cool. Yeah, it's really well done. And I I think we are we're gushing a little bit on on Sonic. But I know my brother immediately after the first stream is like, this is the best JGP game. Like he's like that to him. Like, did you play Elton John? I don't remember if you guys had a lot of fun with Elton John. I can't remember. Yeah. Elton John's fantastic. Don't get me wrong. Elton John is fantastic. But this game, there's something about the theme and the fact that the theme is all about going fast. Let's be real. If you're playing Sonic on Sega, does anybody really have that map in their head?
    49:09
    Someone probably does. Somebody does, but it's like, you know when you play the original Sonic, it's just like, just avoid spikes and just keep going. Just hope, you know, and I feel like this game encourages that. And that one more, the pacing is there, and the one more game feel, I've been hitting the start button a lot. Because it's like, all right, I want to focus on just going fast on this to get the lowest time possible. And you had said there are checkpoints that aren't in the game yet. So the one that you were talking about, Casino, that's if you beat two bosses. And I've done it. And it's lit. And you hit it and nothing happens.
    49:49
    There's another mode. It's Master Emerald or something. It's the green shots. It's all in the upper play field. I love modes like this where you have a to-do list almost and it's something you're chipping away at throughout your play. And the upper right, it'll give you tasks like five of these and 25 spins and five target hits. And if you do all those things, once again, it's lit right up the middle. I've done it once, you hit it, nothing happens because it's not in the game. But the fact that it's there, they're dangling the carrot. These are achievable mini wizard modes that I'm excited to get to. And yeah, I'm really loving the game, really loving the game.
    50:29
    I'll be very curious, Ralph, when you've had it, because this sadly will probably leave in the next week or two because Zach's got to take it back. But I do think this is a game. I know this is a game that that's where I am spoiled in a way where I get to play these games for two, three weeks and then they're gone. And I know very quickly the games I miss. And I think there's a chance. There's a chance.
    50:55
    You brought up the lighting. Well, you brought up the lighting, and I like this. There's two things lighting related. I guess you could say, I don't know, if you consider the rings lighting, I guess I kind of do. Oh, the displays. Oh, yeah. I like the fact there's two things I really thought were pretty clever that they did. I like the fact that the rings are kind of directing you to shots in some cases, especially when you're up or play field. They've got like the arrows and things like that. But I also love, and it took me like a couple games to notice it. I don't know why. I love the little lights on the upper playfield, that light for whatever that shot is. So when you go up there, if you're looking for checkpoints, you'll find right above that shot, they have those little cool LEDs that light up for that color of that shot. That's cool, too. Well, it can't have an insert. It a transparent playfield so there can be an insert But no the lights communicate so well Yeah The only thing that I and this might not even be possible licensing but something that would be so cool I just don know if they could do it is if they had a video mode where you could maybe play a part of a 16 Sonic level with your flippers and your action button or something Like maybe one of your boss battles is a traditional – that would be really cool, but I think licensing would probably prohibit them from doing that. But that's something where if I wanted like a wish list, I'd be like, oh, that could be a cool little thing that you could add to it. Like maybe add like a couple of Genesis levels in there, but not the full thing. Maybe it's like you beat them and there's some kind of special thing. Kind of like how like Black Knight or sort of Rage gives you like the old version of it. Like if imagine one of the boss battles, you beat it, it locks your ball down at the bottom. And then all of a sudden you're you're you have like a secondary boss battle, but it's all like 16 bit on the back. It's just a video mode. That would be really cool. But that would. But they just yeah, they did a lot of cool stuff. And I know having it's I think it's Trevor Snyder, the guy that one of the guys that helped build grew up with the code. He's like a super Sonic fan. So he added a lot of I don't know if he encouraged the music, too, but the music is like the music and the sound effects are all familiar to someone that likes Sonic. So when you hear like the rings or the checkpoint noise, there's something like oddly really satisfying about that. And because they didn't change those too much, like the modern era sound effects are pretty much the same as the old ones. They're just higher quality, really. But so I don't know. I'm having a blast with it. But it will be interesting to say like a couple of code releases from now. How like how does it progress and am I going to like it more? Probably. But that's to be determined. Right. Yeah, absolutely. How is your guys the magnet mechanism working? Oh, the ramp? Yeah. The accelerator loop? Yeah, the accelerator loop. So I had heard some people were saying, and I did not have this problem at all, but I also realized there's, like you were saying before, setup. Is your game leveled? What pitch is your game at? I did hear certain people saying that sometimes that accelerator loop will go straight down the middle. Mine pretty much consistently goes to the right flipper. And every now and then if it's going at a fast pace, it sometimes will veer off to the left one. But I've never had the straight down the middle. But I did notice something the other day because it went through the accelerator loop and I fumble ruskied it and it drained and it gave me a ball save immediately. So I don't know if that's in there because sometimes it could go straight down the middle and it doesn't want to penalize you for that. I'm not sure.
    54:26
    Yeah, I haven't had a single failure with it. I forgot to mention the right ramp. The fact that you can barely hit that right ramp and it just sucks the ball up. And it's so satisfying. It's so satisfying. Yeah. Because normally, you know, if you just barely hit a ramp, it's just like you prepare for the, you know, it's coming back, it's rolling back. And this, it's like, you just barely have to hit that first, I'm assuming, opto to recognize the balls there and it fires those magnets and just, it just sucks the ball up. And so far, it's a shot. I mean, I love shots like that in pinball that feel good every time. The Schnicks shot in Deadpool's one or the Katana ramp in Deadpool's one. It's like, it feels good every single time you hit it. And I'm putting that Sonic right now, this right ramp feels good every time. Well, I think it's called Spindash. Is it Spindash? Oh, when it holds the ball? Yeah. That's pretty cool, too. Yeah, it is. I don't know. It's just a little... The one thing I can't figure out, I'm wondering in that green area that you're trying to get to, like the red and the green, do you think that you get more... I haven't noticed. Do you get more points if you're in the middle of that band? I don't know. I have no idea. We're going to have Bill Grupp on stream this week, so that's definitely something I'm going to ask him about. But I don't like so far, I've never not got it in the green zone and my points have varied drastically. So I don't know if it's how quickly you can get in the green zone, if you center it in the green zone. I don't know. So hopefully we'll we'll get an answer. What about that topper? OK, top is cool. This topper is I mean, honestly, it's incredible.
    56:05
    It's it's incredible. I will tell you, though, I don't you never look at it. No, you can't ever. It's so high up. You never look at it. The only time I ever look at it is when you're like counting, you've drained or something or counting up or you have a moment to pause. I have no doubt for like location or something that that's a people are going to notice that or tournaments because it'll show score and whatnot.
    56:28
    But I don't know. I just I don't say that in any way negative. But even when I'm watching Jared play, there's so much more I'd rather look at than the topper. So if you're in on a collector's edition, you're not going to regret it. The game's incredible. The glitter and everything is awesome. If I was going to buy this today, I would probably go one tier down just because I like the blue powder coat and all that. But at the same time, the arcade edition of this is still killer. Oh, yeah, because you get the same game. I mean, it's great. It's the same game.
    57:02
    Yeah. I want to ask you guys about – yeah, so just to wrap up on Sonic. Like, I'm really, really, really liking it. And I'm a Nintendo, like, I'm a Mario kid. I never had Sega. I've never cared about Sonic at all. And my kids like Sonic because I don't know why. I don't know if it's because there's cartoons or something, but... Maybe the movies? Did they watch the movies?
    57:27
    Yes. Yes, they did. But I know there's other cartoons on. They know more about Sonic than I do. And I just never... So it's not like I don't like it. I just don't care about it. And yet here I am like, this game's incredible. This game's really, really good. So I'm hoping, I'm waiting for more people to play that and really give it a shot. But yes, the number one question I get every single, every time we've streamed this so far is, this is Harry Potter, this is Harry Potter, this is Harry Potter. So Ralph, I need you to answer that question. Just no caveat. No, I'm not going to put you there. I honestly don't know how, and I feel like people get frustrated with me, and I just know they're such different games. Why not both? I mean, if you have unlimited funds, I can see where Sonic would be such a great compliment to Potter if you had a collection of JJP games because it's so different. I feel like Potter's fast, but Sonic's really fast compared to Harry Potter. I mean, there's nothing really slowing the ball down on either one of those games back to the flippers, really. So I don't know. They're both really fun, but I struggle with it. Yeah, I struggle with the answer to that. I don't know. Tom only owns one of those. So I think Tom answered it. I think Tom picked Harry Potter.
    58:44
    If I was forced to give an answer, you could say that if you wanted a more code complete game, then Potter is going to be that for a lot longer than Sonic. Sonic's going to take probably a while to get to where Harry Potter is. So it's almost unfair to pit them against each other for that reason. Because one is like, it's still a lot of code in Sonic, but it's not close to Harry Potter yet. To me, you're comparing apples to oranges. The games are so different. I mean, I'll answer it. If I had to buy one today, I would buy Sonic. Really? That's for me and my household. And the reason I would do that. Is that because Joel can't get the scoop? That's what it is. I can't start a lesson. I can't start a lesson, right? No, my wife is a huge Harry Potter fan, and she enjoyed Harry Potter. She's like, Harry Potter is good, but she never had any idea what she was doing. Never. And then my brother, who streamed it multiple times with us, he's like, nope, too much. He's a stubborn guy, so he's like, nope, too much. He doesn't want to learn. Too much going on. I say that. I played it the other day and just like, man, Harry Potter really is so good. So, yes, I'm going to have their bias, you know, touch on that. But I also honestly, and this is a question for you guys, like when you play pinball at your house, are you like mentally being like, I'm going to go play pinball and you just mentally know this is going to take an hour? Or like how much time do you allot yourself to go play pinball? Because if it's a work day and I get off a call or something and I just want a mental break, I don't have 45 minutes to go play pinball. I have 5 minutes or 10 minutes. And I can tell you right now, I can get more satisfaction out of Sonic in 5 minutes than I would playing Harry Potter for 5 minutes. For me, it's more of a wind-down thing at the end of the day. So it's like, okay, a dinner. Okay, what do I want to do? I'm going to go play some pinball. How long do you think you would play any? It just depends on what I'm feeling. But I mean, if I'm like, oh, I only have a half hour, but I really want to go play pinball. I'll just go down. Okay, I'm going to play this game and whatever happens, happens and I'll turn it off. I mean, or I'll work on some stuff like, you know, kind of. What about you, Ralph? That answer is a little different based on what because my this is the office I work out of when I'm working from home and not traveling. And my the garage is like right there. So but I only have usually it's like, OK, I only have 15 minutes. So if I would influence the amount of time would influence what game I jump on, like the game I actually play a lot when in between calls is The Walking Dead, Although I've gotten a lot better at that game, typically those games are going really fast for me, but now I've gotten better at it and I understand it more so I can kind of get that game to play longer. But it always seems like when I only have 15 minutes is when I'm having a good game. So I'm like, shit.
    61:59
    Yeah, it would be time. Because at the end of the day, my wife works weird hours, so sometimes she's not home until like 7 o'clock. So then my choice is going to be something I know I could maybe have longer play time on. So that's how I would choose. It's more I might choose the game based on how much time I have. Absolutely. And I know Godzilla. When I had Godzilla here, it's not my parents. I really didn't play it much. And that's normally because I would come down and I'm thinking, I only got 10 minutes. I only got 15 minutes. And like, I just didn't want to dive into Godzilla, which could which could be a long game. I just I would want to. And part of me normally, I just always gravitate to whatever game I'm borrowing. That's true, too. Or the newest game, the new game. Like, that's the game I want to spend time on. But some of these games, like I loved The Hobbit, but The Hobbit, every time I play it was such a journey. Like, I'm like, I don't have time. I don't have time to play The Hobbit right now, even though I really enjoy that game. So I think I like having faster games that give me that immediate satisfaction. But yet at the same time, if I know I'm going to stream a game for two hours, I don't want a game that I'm going to be bored of 30 minutes in. I want the game that gives me. So there are some games that I love streaming because I know I'm mentally committing two hours to it. But that may be a game I don't turn on for a week because of it. But I'll turn on the games that give me the fast instant games. But all right, Harry Potter, where you guys have both owned it now for a while. So what is there anything that has like good and bad? Is there anything that now you've owned it for a while that that's kind of gotten old or it's not as wow or there's other like here? I've actually learned to appreciate this part of Harry Potter more, you know, over time or I don't know, overall, just thoughts of the game of being owners for a while. I had Tom go first. Ralph, I'll let you go first this time. There's still stuff I haven't seen in Harry Potter. I haven't seen everything. So to me, that's good because if it's going to be around for a while and you're going to invest that much money in a game, you kind of want it to be something where it's going to take you a while. I will admit, though, as I cycle games through a lot, it's almost a treat to play it now because I don't go to it as much because I go to the newer games. So I'm actually progressing even slower through it. There's not a lot I don't like. It's really hard for me to be critical of that game because it's just so fun to play. I don't have anything where I'm like, man, I wish they did this or that. I mean, I guess you could easily come up with the whole, oh, I wish it had a castle inside it or I wish it had these things. But it doesn't have those things, so there's no point in me fantasizing about what it could have had. But I think they did a really good job with it. It's one of those games where it's still there for a reason. I'm still having a really good time with it every time I play it. And people that come over really enjoy that game. So I don't really see it going anywhere. I never want to say bolted because I used to say that. And then, of course, those games would leave for whatever reason. But I still have more to achieve in it. So I'm enjoying it and I'm going to keep it around. I don't see it going anywhere, to be honest. That's great. Tom, where are you at? You already sold it? No. Actually, I think it was last month, I streamed it a lot because I was trying to get to the end, which I did. Well, I didn't finish the wizard mode, but I got to the final wizard mode. I remember last time we recorded, you were just a few people away. Yeah, I have to kiss you, Joel, so just watch out. He did it. So huge, huge thank you to everybody that did that, that supported him because we saw it over the next few days. Damn, I was trying not to bring it up. Oh, well, thank you. So you are officially, what are you? The internet never forgets us. Partner Plus. There you go, Partner Plus. So what does that give you? It basically just gives me like a little more percentage of like subs. So it gives you like an extra 10% from the money. Yeah. So you're quitting your day job, right? Right. Because of all the money. It's so much. So much. Yeah. Okay. Sorry for the interruption. You know those Sonic coins or rings, you know, it's just like ringing in. No, it's not that much. But yes, thank you for all the people that showed Tom on love. But it's very appreciated. Thank you so much. All right, Tom, sorry to interrupt your, tell me more about Harry Potter. No, that's okay. I, I, like, Harry Potter is just one of those games I really fell in love with. Like, I just, but I, I really liked the movies. Like, when I first saw, like, my, my wife had me, like, kicking and screaming, like, I don't want to go see this kid's movie, you know, like, and like, when I went and saw it, I was like, this is really cool, you know, and like, then I was like, well, I want to see the next one, you know, that kind of thing. And I don't know, I just really like the movies and stuff. So like bringing it home and having the game and it's just a really good experience. I feel like the pinball machine brings the movie out and, you know, everything's there and they did such a good job. You know, it's not like this half-baked thing. It's just really well done. And like when I play the game, like it's an adventure for me. Like I want to get these Holcruxes and I want to try to get these multiballs.
    67:59
    And it's just like I said, it's just so well done. It makes me come back for more. And, you know, it's not going anywhere. I can tell you that much. That sounds like a pretty good endorsement, right? That's awesome, Tom. Buy Harry Potter, send me a Czech Jersey Jack.
    68:19
    It's awesome. And I will say when I was at Derek's house and was explaining the games to them, I quickly realized that's what really showed me. I'm like, all right, I'm going to start a Quidditch battle. Here's how. And then I was like, when I started, the snitch is somewhere on the, you know, like they didn't know. And I'm like, look for the white light, you know, cradle up. And it's like, it's over here. Now it's over here. And then it like went on one of the middle shots. And I was like, oh, it's there. Boom. And then I hit the shot and collected it. You know, like to have that little moment. And then I and then I wanted to show them the Death Eaters multiball. And I'm like, well, let me get through two Death Eaters. Check this out. You know, and they really did a great job, really did a great job with that game. So what was really cool, like when I streamed it, I learned from people in the chat, like I didn't know there's a mode up the middle where if you do well in the mode, it makes your Golden Trio's multiball easier. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah. So it's like, it's like, I'll have to look up what, it's one of the, I forget what it is, but I forget the exact mode, but I know what it is on the play field. But it's like five shots and they're hurry ups and you have to try to hit the hurry ups. And every time you, you hit, hit one of them, it like makes part of the golden trios multiball easier. Because you have to complete that to get to one of the ultimate wizard modes. You have to hit a super jackpot to get the whole crux. Yeah, in Golden Trio. Yeah. Okay. Do you still have to hit the scoop to start a lesson? Is that still? Yes, Joel. Come on! Why do they not have that? Give me the setting. On my game, it's not super hard to get in the scoop. So like it could just be the game you had. Okay. It could just be Operator. It could just be me. It could. It could just be me. But I mean, yeah, some games are, you know, the shots are harder than others. I mean, I get it. If I was Eric Minier and he's like, hey, you have to get in a Megatron scoop to start a mode there too. What the heck? You know, like I get it. So I just, yeah. But no, it's really, uh, JJP two for two, their last two games, they're, I'm, I'm really impressed with, with what's going on, uh, for sure. Um, we mentioned it earlier, Tom, you unboxed Beetlejuice. I know, Ralph, you have a Beetlejuice. You still have it, right? I actually got, I actually traded my Beetlejuice into Zach. Oh, okay. I haven't told anybody that yet. For Sonic? Oh, sorry. I don't edit it. I don't edit it. That's fine. Okay. So we got Ralph, it's out the door, and Tom, it's in the door. So let's start with Tom. Your initial impression, you went Butter Cabin too. You went. I went Butter. I went all out on it. I really like the game. I think there's a lot going on, and it's kind of got some quirky things, but it's kind of fun. I was happy that I could actually get it in the, what is it, the worm's mouth. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, overall, I think it's a fun experience. I mean, like as a tournament player, I'm not like, oh, I hope I see this in a tournament. But it's a fun, you know, it is what it is kind of thing. It's a fun game to play. I enjoy it. What I think I personally think Beetlejuice they did so much right so much right.
    72:10
    But I do know I mean my one my one struggle with that game was the left shot the left orbit that left shot that feeds the biggest complaint of that game. OK, well, you talk about it, Ralph. That's my biggest complaint because I feel like I want to I want to like explore that area. I want to do the couch multiball or whatever it's called. But it was hard to hit the ball up there? No, I can hit that shot. It's just the fact that you have to lower that flipper so fast. Oh, sure. The right flipper, yeah. Otherwise, you're not going to make – yeah, it goes into the scoop. Yeah, I noticed that. I've heard Bug talk about it, and he's like, well, that was the challenge. But I don't know why, but for me, that design choice, I didn't like. That's just for me. That's fair. But what's weird about Beetlejuice in general, my first entry into Spooky was Evil Dead. And here's what's weird. If you said Evil Dead or Beetlejuice, what theme do you want? I would not say Evil Dead. Sure, I would say Beetlejuice. But I like Evil Dead more. And I think a lot of it just has to do with I don't love and I know now you can lock in the modes. I didn't like at first that I got to shoot that weird shot over on the left to change the modes. I still haven't figured out how you lock it in, but supposedly you can lock in the modes now so you can choose it and lock it, or at least you can lock the one it's on, but I still don't. Someone messaged me how to do it and it didn't work, so maybe I'm just doing something wrong. But I liked on Evil Dead how you just select the modes from the start. I thought that was cool. I picked the movie, I picked the mode, and I enjoyed that. I don't know, I just, I'm not always about so much stuff on the play field. For me, it was almost too much, but it was beautiful. But my buddy Rudy loves it. He's like, I can't believe you got rid of it. And I was like, I don't know. It just wasn't for me. But he's like, don't get rid of Evil Dead. I'm like, I'm not. So yeah, I don't know. It just wasn't my favorite one. But I have to give it props where it's due. It's beautiful. I can see if you really liked Beetlejuice. If you were in love with the movie, I don't know how much better they could The thematic stuff is so good.
    74:18
    And the modes are creative. There's definitely creative things. As seen on TV, the pain box thing, that's cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I might be in a weird percentage of people here. I didn't love the Deo mode, to be honest. Where your footboards are going? Yeah, I almost wish that I could defer the Deo mode after experiencing it a couple times. Sure. But overall, I can see why people like it. This was one that wasn't 100% for me. And again, it went into that conversation of if it's filling a spot, do I want that in there? Or am I happy with my Evil Dead as my Spooky spot? And then if Goonies is the next one and if Spooky keeps continuing to do things the way they do them and people are just like the interest level is going to remain high, then I almost have to buy into it without even playing it, which is probably what I'm going to have to do. I have very high hopes for, I think Goonies is going to be really cool and I do think Spooky will do a good job with it. So I'm excited to see what they do there, if that is indeed the next game. Yeah, you actually said all that. I agree with all that. I think Beetlejuice, to cart back on what we talked about earlier, there's a lot of collectors out there. I think Beetlejuice is going to be a game that's always going to be worth money because it's a great theme. The art is incredible. I see you're wearing a Franchi shirt there, Ralph. The art's incredible. They got all the assets, the sound. It's all there. And so I think there are people that they don't care about difficulty of X, Y, or Z or depth of whatever. Like they just to just step up and have a good time and experience Beetlejuice. That game is going to have a good time. Yeah, I think Spooky's doing their thing. You know, they're not going to they're not going to be swayed by like everybody's opinions and stuff. They're just, you know, they're doing it their way and they're doing it well. Yeah, they're proud of what they make. They should be. They're proud of what they make. And they sell out instantly. Like, it's all, what more, you know. So I do think when you, this just popped into my head, but I know I had the same frustration. You'd hit that left shot and you'd accidentally be holding up the right flipper and you want it. What if they would have made the upper right flipper a separate button? If they would have done that, just have two buttons on the right side. Like what they did with the hidden flipper on Evil Dead? Yeah, if they would have done that, just two flippers on the right side and then you wouldn't accidentally hold that right flipper up. Like, I don't know. I think that could have been cool. Yeah, that could have been cool. Yeah, I think that potentially so somebody will mod their somebody will drill a hole in their cabinet and mod their mod their game to do that. I'm not doing that to my butter cabinet. And like the way they package that thing, I mean, it was wrapped in a blanket, two blankets. Two blankets, more saran wrap than you probably needed. A lot of cardboard. I mean, it was like I was taking the thing apart and it was like, I need a manual to take this thing apart to get to the game. Yeah it was really well packaged So JJP games have rad cows which are basically thick plastic and is printed on the inside And then I forget what Barrels of Fun calls it but it basically the same thing It a rad cow Yeah, it's beautiful. So what would you prefer, a rad cow or a butter cabinet? A butter cabinet is direct printed on the wood covered with a clear coat. Do you have a preference? I guess I'd want the rad cow because you could replace it probably easier. The durability of it. Yeah. I mean, the problem with the butter cabinet is like if you actually damage it, you're not fixing it. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Just dim the lights. That's the only thing. But you look at the way the butter cabinet pops. It looks so good. I remember when I think it was Brian Kelly who actually came up with that concept, I believe. He had it on like a fishtails cabinet and I was like, holy crap, this is excellent. But it's just like the art just pops, it's clear coated, it's nice. Yeah, well I don't doubt it.
    78:45
    All right, well we have a little bit of time left. I'm just going to straight shill because that's all we do on this show, right? It's just shill. But I have a Toten here. And just what I will say about Toten is I never had time on one outside of this. Like I think I've played a few games.
    79:03
    I don't know. I know you guys have probably played way more Toten than I have. And I probably played it more than me. I am super impressed by this game and not necessarily the game because it's still Toten. Like if you've played Tales of the Arabian Nights, this is Tales of the Arabian Nights. The code has not changed. But what they've added, and I say they, Pedretti, what they've added into this game with the additional lighting is beautiful. Like the way the mode, the whole atmosphere of the game changes being on what mode you're in because the whole lighting scheme changes. The light show is beautiful. They added extra LEDs under the ramps. Beautiful. Question for you, is that like, which version is that? This is the limited edition, I think is what it's called. So there's the anniversary edition, which is the Brian Allen art. Okay. Then there's this edition, which I think is the limited edition. Okay. Which Zach has for sale. Shill, shill, shill, shill. If this edition is the original art. Oh, that's right. Yeah. We should do it. Yeah. Buy from Travis if you want to do that, you know, Pinball Company. Let's give him some love because he's not here, right? That's right. Do you get the same? Is it just aesthetics? It's just the artwork. Okay. So there's nothing different between those other than aesthetics. It's the artwork and the powder coating. This has like a black sparkly powder coating. The anniversary edition, I think, is what it is. It's purple powder coating with Brian Allen art. Otherwise, all the light show is there. I am such a sucker. We've talked about this so much on Triple Drain for DMD artwork. DMD artwork, the fact that they got the CGC crew to do all the coating for this with the same artist that's done all the CGC remakes To put in this XL display with these amazing dots. It just unbelievable. And that's all like software driven, right? Because that's not it's an LCD screen, right? And they just look really authentic to recreate that. Yeah. And it was what was cool. Last time we streamed it, we the last game I played, you can turn on the original DMD. Like you can. Oh, that's interesting. You can play it and it's just to see these like basic animations after you're so familiar seeing these new colorized dots. It's amazing what they've done. So what I would say is I do feel I had I had streamed Funhouse, the Funhouse remake by Pedretti. I had streamed it and the 2.0 code that they did in that wasn't the best. And I had some issues with the game physically, like the build quality of it. What Pedretti's done with this, they now use the FAST system, which is the same system I know all the Barrels of Fun games use. There's another manufacturer that uses FAST. I've had no issues. Yeah, Pinball Brothers has it in Predator. I don't know if they did it prior to Predator, but... Oh, okay. Yeah, but the FAST board set, I've had no issues. Like the game just, the game feels, it's super heavy too. That's what's crazy is I moved out two Sterns, Pokemon and Transformers left. And what did I bring in? This Sonic weighs like a half a ton. Sonic is so freaking heavy. It's so heavy. It's so heavy, man. Toten was very, very heavy. So it's very well built. It's very sturdy. I mean, there's really nothing I can say about Toten other than like I've beaten the game. Me, my skill level, I've beaten the game. I've gotten to the wizard mode when I streamed it the other night. I got to the wizard mode four times in two hours and I beat it twice. So it's like that's that is the depth of the game. That is the challenge of the game. But it's from the 90s. They've talked about extending the code. I'm all for it. Like, yeah, I would love there to be more challenge or more depth. But I would put this right next to like Monster Bash where it's like if you focus you can beat it. But just if you just want to step up and have a good time, amazing mechs, simple, easy to understand what to do. It's just fun. And I don't know if somebody I would I would if people are on the fence, if you like Toten, you will you will like this game. Like it's the best version of the game you'll ever get. There's no way. And if you like scoring exploits, look up Kaylee George.
    83:25
    I'm curious. They said they've changed some of the exploits. So I don't know if that's... We will see. We will see. But yeah, do either of you guys... Are either of you guys in on one of these? Are you interested in on one of these? I mean, what's your thoughts on just Tales of the Arabian Night as a game in general?
    83:43
    Who wants to go first? We'll go Tommy Boy. What am I questioning? Do you like Toten? Do I like Totem? Or would you buy this game?
    83:53
    That is a really tough question. When I first got in this hobby, I looked at that game and I was like, wow, I really want to own that. And then I played it.
    84:05
    And for some of the reasons you just answered, I think the code's too shallow, like way too shallow. So my answer would be at this point, no. But if there is code upgrades, I might consider it.
    84:25
    I just I guess I'm just not big into the whole Bally Williams remakes, maybe because I've sought those games out so much. And I've already gotten through a lot of them and I've played enough of them that I'm kind of like, there's really just nothing that really tricks my fancy, I guess, when it comes to older games like that. Sure. Like somebody remake like, I don't know, like a game plan game like Cyclops or Cyclopes or whatever you want to call it. You know, do you know what I'm talking about? No. So you would rather them remake like something that's hard to find? Yeah. I mean, that's I mean, really, isn't that why they did Cactus Canyon? Yeah. Have you you had at one point a thought about getting a Cactus Canyon? Have you played the edition kit and all that? The only time I've played it was at Papa last year. Okay. And I haven't really had a chance to get one, although I've seen a lot of them for sale now. So I think I'm just, I might pick one up that's for sale if I want to pursue it. But I'm kind of it's kind of one of those things. It's like I have so many games, so much space, you know, like I do like trying newer stuff, though. Yeah. So, yeah, that's fair.
    86:00
    Ralph, what are your thoughts on Totener? Because you don't own any of the CGC remakes or anything like that. No, the only CGC game I ever owned was Pulp Fiction, which I enjoyed. I played a lot of this game virtually. That's how I first experienced it. Same with me. And I think it's because it was like a pack-in game with something. I can't remember. One of the virtual software came with it. So I think you just got it. And that's kind of how I started playing it. And then there was a local bar that my wife and I used to go to. This is kind of like when I was very casual pinball. I didn't play it daily. And my wife loves that game. She thinks it's super cool. She loves the sound effects. She just really liked it and she understood the game and what to do, to your point about it being a very understandable rule set.
    86:53
    Am I going to get it, though? There's part of me that's like I could get it and I think it'd be fun to have because my wife would probably. I do think about is there a game that my wife would like? She'll play Harry Potter. She really likes Harry Potter. That's good. So if I brought it in, it'd probably be more because I know she'd play it with me than it would be that I have this deep desire to have it in the collection. It is a cool game, though, and what they did looks really pretty. My only reservation would have been, and you're kind of making me feel a little bit better about it by your comments, is I had heard not so great things about the Funhaus remake reliability-wise, but it sounds like that's been kind of squashed with this. Like, they've really done a good job getting the quality where it needs to be. So I guess I'm on the fence, but it is a fun game and I think my wife would enjoy playing it. So my motivation would be more because she would like it and so maybe I'd bring it in for a little while. But it's also not cheap, so it's not like it's a cost-effective remake. But I'm kind of like you, Tom, sometimes it's like, do I want to fill a spot with a remake or do I want to fill a spot with a new game? But I do see where that game people like, it's often brought up as a game people enjoy, so I can see why they remade it. So I guess my answer is I'm on the fence on it, and my motivation would really be more because my wife likes it. If Travis was here, he would be giving you a hard time. Why? Because he said if there's a game that your wife likes, you buy the game. He bought, you know, Monica got Pirates. That was every time I talked about Dune, he's like, you're an idiot. Your wife likes Dune. Why have you not bought Dune? Oh, so you didn't listen. Did you listen? So you listened to Travis. I am buying Dune. It's just not I'm one of the last manufacturer ones, so it'll be here soon. But he's like, what is your problem? Your wife likes Dune by Dune, because that's where after Dune was here. That's what my wife compared every game to Harry Potter is great, but it's not as good as Dune. Speaking of Dune, Ralph, have you owned any of the Barrels of Fun games? Just Labyrinth. Just Labyrinth, okay. I wanted a Winchester so bad. They got it at the – do you guys know the guy? He's in the community. His name is Ozzy. Yeah, I've heard of him. He's all over the place. He's one of these people that watches everything. He's a really nice guy. He goes to shows. He's very, very nice. He loaned his – he bought it from someone here in Arizona, and he loaned it to Electric Bat. I saw that. So I went down during the day because they're open at 6 a.m. to 2 a.m. So I got there really early in the morning when no one was there really. Believe it or not, there are people in Electric Bat at 6 a.m. But I got myself out of bed. I dragged myself down there and I played it a lot. And I'm like, man, this game, that game is so cool. It's so good. It's so freaking cool, though. Like, it's unique. The shots are unique. The audio package is like incredible. Incredible. Like Jeff and the team that he assembled to do it. It's so talk about a game that sucks you into the world of this haunted mansion. It's like, oh, my gosh. It's almost a shame that there's only 525 of that game. It is a shame. It's one of those things. It's like I think they made the right call. Yeah, I do, too. But what I said about it. Of course.
    90:18
    We're not going to blame David or Carl. Same reason I can be upset like there's no more evil deads, you know. Yeah, exactly. You know, kind of thing.
    90:28
    Yeah, I mean, you know, if they would have said, well, there's unlimited, everybody would have went, well, I'm just going to wait, you know, and that's what happens, you know. Yeah. It's got to be, Pinball needs FOMO.
    90:44
    Yeah. Yeah, it's well, I mean, we're seeing that with Sonic right now. A lot of people I've talked to where they're like, man, Sonic looks good, but what's the rush? They're like, they're not they're going to wait until TPF. They're going to wait until Expo to play it. They're going to wait till there's like, what's the rush? I can get a I can get a game wherever. So they say they're not building them anymore, right? I know. I mean, that's kind of what happened with Dune. I mean, there was kind of there. They sold more. Oh, yeah. If JJP is a great game tomorrow. And that, yeah, I'm pumped for that. But if they're like, okay, we're going to shut off, you know, you have to put in your order for Sonic by, you know, you have a month, like, you know, a bunch would go on. But, well, yeah, just to wrap all that up, I will say, where I'm at is, honestly, I like having a Bally Williams-like game in my lineup. That's why Cactus Canyon is here. It's just very approachable. Anybody can play it. But like I'm right. I feel like Toten, I could if I was to replace Cactus Canyon today, I would probably replace it with Toten. But I'm waiting to see like I really am curious to see what this additional code is going to be. Have they committed to that? Have they committed that they're going to do that? They have committed. So Loserkid, they said, yes, they're going to do extended code where the vibe is. The only thing I'm hearing is it's basically take the code and they're going to make it. So the modes, you can probably complete the mode, but you can continue. And if you do, it almost sounds like you're going to charge the jewel. So if you play these deeper modes and you end up, when you go to Battle of the Genie, all your jewels are charged. I'm assuming there will be an additional wizard mode. So the vibe I get would be the same as Monster Bash. It's either you do Monster Bash, but if you get all the instruments, then you get to the whatever the real one is, like the deep one is. So I don't know. I'm very curious to see what that is. But yeah, it would take a lot for me to give up Cactus, because this has more depth. Like, I haven't gotten to High Noon yet in the new code, which keeps me coming back.
    92:48
    I'm still holding out hope. X-Men's sitting right here. Still, I'm holding it out. I'm holding out hope. It's going to happen eventually.
    92:57
    If I brought X-Men back, that would be three times. Three times. I'm good with it for right now. You brought John Wick back or no? I did, and I freaking love the new code. It is so it is reinvigorated John Wick for me. Yeah, it's a shame that it wasn't like that from the start. But, man, it's so good now. Yep. And that's the look at the smile on your face. It's so I want people to say that's about X-Men. That's what I need. I need the hope is there. What's funny, Joel, is what I posted when I posted that John Wick came back. I got like 80 percent of the comments were like, oh, man, that's awesome. And 20 percent were like, yeah, well, when's X-Men going to be like that? I want to feel that way about X-Men. There was literally like 20% of the comments for X-Men people being like, I did not comment. I did not comment. But it's hope. And the truth, you look at James Bond. James Bond, when that game came out, people were like, wow, this game is blah, blah, blah. And then now look at it. It's great. That's another great one. Oh my gosh. John Wick. Like, what the heck? And then now it's great. It's just like, that's where I'm just like, please, come on, Stern. Just don't break that streak with X-Men. Please do it. Please. I'm going to throw this out there for anybody listening. If you need help with the new code, testing it, Joel or I would be willing to test it for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel can throw you ideas. I'll just say it's good. Well, there's somebody who's floating a rumor that like Ray Day's on the code and I'm like, please don't. No, there's no way. But I would love George. Hey, George Gomez, I don't know if you listen. But if you do listen, I don't think Ray's doing anything. Just put Ray. He can fit it in. Just say whatever, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Ray, just work on a little X-Men. That's okay. Ray's crying in the corner because he's like, how come I can't get Ralph to figure out how to use the Jedi Ball Saver? I've explained it to him 700,000 times.
    95:02
    I think he's a pro. Honestly, that is one where I feel like the pro is more than adequate for that game. I do know how to use the Jedi Ball Saver, and it's really fun, Ralph. I have a pea brain. I can't figure it out, man, every time I try. Yeah. Oh, boy. Well, blame Ray. I like blaming Ray. It's always fun. It's easy to do. All right. Well, I think that's it for topics, and we're running low on time. So I told my wife, I would be done in six. You didn't cover Transformers, but you can't, huh? We did Transformers at the beginning. Yeah, we did. We did? Yeah, remember that? We've been here for so long. I forgot. I forgot already, I guess. We'll just loop back. We'll loop back and see what I said. I expect that out of Kel, but not you, Ralph. I know. I'm like, we did.
    95:51
    Well, I would say this is an episode of Triple Drain where I feel like we're approaching the end, and I don't feel bad about myself. You know, like it's not to have somebody not just just knocking on me all the time and just give me crap all the time. It's kind of nice. I know for a fact, Travis won't listen to this. There's zero chance. You don't think you'll go back and be like, I want to see what it's too busy. It's too busy. He's too busy adulting. That was his word. That sounds boring. He's like he's proud of it. I'm being an adult today. You know, it's like good for you, Travis. I'm proud of you for doing that. But all right, well, let's do our normal, let's wrap it up unless there was anything else, any other random thing that needs said or done.
    96:34
    I'll start. I'm going to be streaming Pimberg and the Beast very soon. So I will be out on the East Coast. So streaming tournament pinball. So hopefully you watch.
    96:48
    I know Joel won't, but probably Ralph will. I do pop in. I pop in a lot, yeah. But if tournaments are your thing, give me a follow on Twitch and we'll see you at the event. Yeah, Fox City's Pinball on Twitch, Fox City's Pinball and Silver Ball swag. Unfortunately, I don't have time on the weekends to watch your style notes. Are you adulting, Joel?
    97:18
    Parenting is what I'm doing on the weekends. I got little kids that I got to keep alive. No, what is it? One of the tournaments, I think it's in-disc. In-disc is like during the week. So I can have that on during work hours. Oh, okay. Well, Pinnball will be during the week too. Okay, then I have a shot. I have a shot there.
    97:40
    Okay, perfect. Thank you, Tom. It's always the best. We can find a sub for Travis. That's not – I mean, how hard is that? But sub for you, Tom. Yeah, right. All right, Ralph, plug away, dude. Yeah, I think I'm going to stream. I don't know. When do you usually air this? Is this going to air like tomorrow or? Probably. As soon as Joel edited. Yeah. Well, depending on how. It'll probably be Saturday. Okay. Depending on how motivated I am this weekend. My wife's not working and I was going to paint this wall, but I probably will stream Transformers instead of painting this wall. So I think that's what I'm going to do. I think I'm going to stream Transformers and I just, I feel like it's, you know, it's a fun game. I'm having a good time with it. I already streamed Sonic. I'm going to wait probably a little while to stream Sonic again because I just wanted to maybe we'll get a code update or something. So I'll wait on that. Other than that. Yeah, there's not a lot. I traded in some games to Zach. I got some credit going on with Zach. So you never know. See, I might you might influence me and I'd be like, Zach, I want a totan. And then I'm going to fall out and I'll come out and I'm going to be like, son of a. But yeah, we'll see because I really fall out. I'm really kind of excited about that. If that's the game, of course. Well, any L1 games worth getting excited about. Yeah, I'm excited about that. I kind of don't like how we know every title that's coming out. I know. Yeah. We don't know Barrels of Fun. I have no idea what's coming out there. That's true. Yeah. And I will say P3, I mean, DCC, Dundercrawler Carl is supposed to be coming. I know I've read all the books. Tom's working his way through. Ralph, have you started or read any of the Dundercrawler Carl books? No, I'm a loser. Dude, just get the audio. Anybody listening, get the audio books. I don't read, Joel. That's why I don't read either. I do the audio books, obviously. You get an audio book and you listen to it in the car or when you're mowing the lawn or that's the walk in the dog. I feel so left out. Like, I feel so left out. Oh, I get it. I was hoping on the last triple drain you were going to say you weren't going to do it. And I'm like, all right, well, now I have another person that I know that's in our circle that doesn't. But you did it. So now I feel like I pressured it. I have to. And then if the game comes out, I'm not going to know anything about it. So I'm going to be starting the sixth book. Oh, man, there's six? It's great. I mean, I got like a 10-hour drive to Pittsburgh. I got to do something. Oh, man. That's the thing. If you ever have a road, you travel for work all the time. I know. I should listen to it on the plane. Audio book. Seriously. It's well worth it. I'm doing it. You don't have to read. You don't have to open a book and read a word. All you have to read is the title, download it on your phone, and that's hit play. I will say, and Joel, since you aren't going to watch apparently anything that Tom does, Tom does a lot of really cool shorts of the cool moments. Watch those because at least you'd be supporting your buddy. Wow. See, now I'm laughing you. We found ourselves. It only goes one way, bro. It only goes one way. I watch Joel's stuff. He doesn't watch me. Oh, really? Wow. That's sad. Wow. Okay. All right. I thought you guys were tight. Okay, no, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. But no, I don't remember. I wish I could recall it in my mind. But Tom, you published something. It was a short that was like some amazing moment. And I'm not remembering what it was, but it was so cool. It was like jaw-droppingly cool. It was like a save where I'm like, oh, my gosh, how do you even do that? It might have been during a practice. But it was like this crazy save. Was it like a death save? Yeah, it was a death save. It might have been Zach Parks on Iron Man. He did a death save. That actually has 50,000 views. Yeah, that was crazy cool. Wow. Now granted, on 50,000 views on a Facebook, Instagram post. You made six cents. Yes.
    101:30
    You're like, I'm quitting my day job. Six cents. It's the rings. Sonic rings. You know, and that's why I will be starting hot tub streams for now. Yeah. Oh, wow. Well, I look forward to those. Hey, I'll support that. I'm ready to go. It's a long time. All right. And I do. Yeah, I'm Joel. I do the flipping out pinball stream. Tutorial wise, we there was just a tutorial for Sonic out. There's going to be a tutorial for Batman 66 coming soon. I filmed the tutorial for Toten today. So hopefully those will be helpful. But yeah, we've streamed that. And then this week we're going to stream with Bill Grupp on Sonex. Oh, cool. Hopefully he can explain some of anything that we've missed or talk about future stuff, which would be a good time. Yeah, hopefully we'll record again sometime soon. Obviously, Multimorphic is going to have a reveal very soon. And Stern's always just around the corner. And, yeah, there's always funny stuff to talk about. I heard people are going there tomorrow. To where? To P3. Yeah, it's coming soon. So something is brewing. Joe knows everything.
    102:38
    He's like, I'm there right now. This is a great screen. I'm really curious about Barrels of Fun when their next stop is. But anyways, Jerry, yeah, Jerry, come on stage. He's hiding under Totan right now. He's like, where's your P3, buddy?
    102:58
    Maybe one day. He's like, you thought Sonic was heavy? Check this out. Oh, boy. All right. Well, hey, we're recording this on a weekend, so everybody have a great weekend. But yeah, like always, Tom, you get the last words. Peace out.
    103:16
    And I totally wasn't ready on the button, so this is going to be very delayed. Peace out. Double peace out.