Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are still on episode 32. This is our part two of the Roger Sharp interview. If you remember last time, we were talking with Roger about his days at Bally Williams, and we're going to pick it up right there. I'm going to kick it over to you, Scott. Now, you have talked about this before, that really the end of the Williams Valley era was more of a – it was a money issue in that you were profitable, but you weren't as profitable as the shareholders or the company wanted you to be. So one question I have is, is it possible for the long term sustainability of companies if you are if you are answering to shareholders, if you're answering to a publicly traded company? Or is it do you have to have like private ownership like the way Stern has weathered the storm is because in many ways it's kind of an isolated company. What are your thoughts on the, I guess, how viable is a long-term business plan in pinball, solo ownership versus a pooled group of investors? Everything changed dramatically and radically back in the late 70s and early 80s with the advent of video games. Atari being purchased by Warner Brothers. I mentioned before, D. Gottlieb being purchased by Columbia Pictures. when everything became public, the problem that you have is, whether it's pinball machines, video games, or anything else, but we'll concentrate on pinball for now. When you're part of the entertainment industry, there's going to be peaks and valleys. The same way that there is with movie studios, same way that there is with casinos and slot machine manufacturers, the same way that it is with recording companies. publishers. Think of all of those things that are out there and all the things, unfortunately now because of the current situation that are shut down and we wonder what everything will be like when things reopen. You know, amusement centers. You know, what's going to happen with our leisure time? External of being inside and being somewhere on a computer. or on an app of some sort. When it all changed, suddenly it became more cutthroat. God, I still remember I was sitting down and I was interviewing Sam Gensberg at Chicago Coin. And in the middle, he took a timeout. And I forget it. I don't remember if he called up Williams or Bally. but whoever he called it was like hi i need x y and z and all i heard was you know again the request for whatever he was asking for that he needed and uh on his side of the phone oh great so you'll chuck it over in a couple of hours fantastic thanks i can keep the line going i mean it was like that everybody was helping everybody everybody was competitive but it wasn't as if you know there were, to your question, shareholders and other people on executive boards that were making decisions that were going to have an impact ultimately on the profit and loss for that fiscal quarter. So, yes, I have made the statement and I believe it wholeheartedly that at the end of time in 1999, we were making money at Williams Bally Midway, but we weren't making enough to satisfy the shareholders. And a couple of years later, not making enough to keep video games alive, both the home that we had entered into as well as the arcade games. So going forward now, because we have a situation where you do have some stakeholders, if you will, who have funded and invested in a couple of companies. whether or not their expectations are being met across the board on a quarter-by-quarter basis, only they can answer. My feeling, in all honesty, and I think I probably mentioned this either offhandedly or in some context before, I came very, very close to purchasing Premier when they were going out of business, and I had financial backing. and we looked at their P&L, looked at the holdings and everything and realized that they were too far gone to actually resurrect them and become profitable within a meaningful period of time for what the downstroke investment would be. And having conversations to get those finances lined up, they were going to be in for the long haul. I expressed to them what I thought the cycle of the business was and where I thought I could take the business. And they believed in that. Now, having said that, it's one thing to believe up front. When the money's in and you've opened up the door and you start a business, would they go along with it? Who knows? I kind of made a vague reference before as to my pinball book. I had an editor-in-chief who believed in the book and toward the end said, you know what? nobody's really interested in all of this stuff. We need to cut down those interviews. We need to cut down this, that, and the other. And he goes, I mean, you're cutting out the heart and soul of what I want to do. And I made the decision to go forward because I felt an obligation for what I had promised and set out to do. But I will say it. And I think I've said it before. I have never taken the time because it's too painful to ever read the book from beginning to end the way that it was printed. and published. So having said that, kind of surviving and living through a change in midstream, I think that what you have is an industry that is well suited to exist, and we're talking about pinball now, as independent ownership, with or without financial backing, but hopefully with financial backing, whether it's a group of investors, a company, or whatever else who understands the dynamics of what this business is now, what it can be, and fundamentally, what is that investment needing to be to get to where it can be? Because right now, it's on the cusp of where it can be. I mean, that's my firm belief. But again, I think if you wind up taking it public, you falter and lose almost instantaneously because history is going to repeat itself. You said it's on the cusp of what it can be. What would you envision it to be in five years? If you would have asked me that question back in January, I would have a totally different answer than what I have now. I don't know what the new normal is going to be. I have been asked over time, and I think I'm constant with my answer, Roger, if there was no pinball, you know, what would you do? And it's like, well, you know, when somebody can replicate the experience that I have, the tactile feel, sensory immersion of playing a pinball machine in some way, shape, or form where it's not virtual, taking nothing away from Farside Zen or anybody else. Those are great. But to play a physical pinball machine, there's nothing like it. To have all of the sound and the music and the speech and the lights, the mechanical parts of it, I mean, my God, it sends a chill. That is not replicatable yet with anything else that exists. So having said that, I think that there will always be a place for pinball. Having said that, where can it now go? God. The home market is wonderful. It has kept everything alive for a long period of time because the commercial market had either been relatively ignored or there was really no place for it just because of the cost of equipment. Barcades have kind of changed that. Some of the entertainment centers that have opened up have kind of changed that. But now we have a situation where there is unknown. When does everything reopen? Will movie theaters become different? Will they be taking out seats? How long will people be wearing masks if they're even wearing them now? When will social distancing become less? When there's a vaccine, probably. when there's testing for everybody, probably. I've made the comment to people in terms of my regular work day. In Illinois, and it might exist elsewhere, in Illinois, on some level of frequency, we get a notification where we have to take our cars in for a clean air check. And I'm given four or five places where I can bring my car in. When I get a notification saying, hi, here is your virus check, and I'm going in and somebody's going to swab me, take my temperature or God only knows what to tell me if I'm good or not. When that happens for everybody, then maybe we can get back to, again, whatever the new normal is. But right now we're on the precipice. So I am fundamentally very positively inclined to believe that pinball will be fine. But to give you an answer now based on where we are now. I wish I could. Because the supposition that I would take would be based on where things were at back in January. Where everybody was thriving. Where locations were opening up. Where, oh my god, you're telling me that Dave and Buster's may actually bring pinball back in? Huh. Amazing. Where there's going to be more leagues and tournaments, not necessarily in people's basements and rec rooms, but actually out in the real world. Phenomenal. I mean, that's where my vision was. More leagues, more tournaments, more opportunities to be exposed to pinball, to enjoy the joys of pinball, to have new generations of players experience pinball. As I see sometimes Joshua post the picture or back in the day when I was allowed into the house, I could play pinball with Colin and with Charlotte. You know, I am incredibly optimistic, but I am cautionary because I don't know what the world is going to be that we're going to be entering into. So I don't know if that's the answer that you were looking for, but I have to preface it with that. There seems to be a huge unknown for what's going forward. I guess from a manufacturing standpoint, another question I would have, JJP, they had their Pirates of the Caribbean, and yes, there were some stumbling blocks. They showed it before it was a little ready. They had a big long lag time before they actually brought it to the public. And in some ways, my take is that the desire for it cooled down a little bit. So I think they tempered what they made. Now that people have been able to play it, the demand is up. So from a manufacturing standpoint, you've been involved in all these things. And in the Williams Valley days, once you were done with a run, you said you were done. It was on to a new thing, but with the ability to actually scale up, do small runs, do things like that. What are some factors that would limit JJP from actually saying, you know what, there's a demand for this, let's make it? Well, let me answer the question this way. I take my hat off to Gary Stern for being able to create a factory and a production line where he has been able over the years to go back in, whether you call it a vault edition or some other thing, but to go back in and do short runs, revisit and all the rest of it, while still having a functioning production and assembly line for whatever the new game is. without him being able to do that I don't know if anybody else would have ever thought of doing smaller runs going back and forth to answer your question more thoroughly in terms of Jack I think it's two things one what's the demand do you know up front it was very difficult for us as a company going back to Williams Valley to do the eventual 1000 gold edition Adams families we reached out to distributors to ask if we go back in or if we continue and do a special limited edition run will you guys step up can we get pre-orders if you will not necessarily pre-order but a commitment to know is a thousand too much should we only do 500 is a thousand too little should we do 1500 because i knew that larry and pat and the rest of the team and myself included, wanted to get that record as the best-selling pinball machine of the modern era. And it wasn't something that we went into blind. So in terms of pirates, as you mentioned, I think there's two factors. One, does the license term still exist or has it run out and you have to renew it, which is what he did on Wizard of Oz. because I was involved with Wizard of Oz as well as pirates in terms of getting the license for it. So does the license term run out? And then more importantly, what kind of risk do you take to build more now that it's, in quotes, done? What parts do you have? Did you go through all the parts? What was it? Gene Cunningham was only able to build X number of Big Bang bars because that was all the parts that he had. And it was some, you know, some ridiculous number. It wasn't a round number from what I remember. Maybe it was 107 or 122, whatever it was. That's all the parts that he had. He wasn't able to go back in or he could have, I suppose, to go to the vendors and say, hi, I'd like to buy X number of more ramps and X number of this and that. So some of it becomes where's the cost effectiveness to go back in on a whim and a desire to think that can I sell 100 more or am I going to be stuck in a warehouse with them? And, you know, Jack has done very nicely, I think, can speak on his behalf for doing multiple runs of Wizard of Oz. Here's the ruby red slippers edition, and here's this edition, and here's that edition, you know, where he's gone back because obviously he has some parts and has the extension for the license to do that. So with Pirates, whether it was cost prohibitive, whether the margin on what he was selling it for made sense, or it made more sense to go forward with other projects and not to hold back, whether he had the ability, and I don't know this, to do multiple production lines, to say, all right, I can do Willy Wonka on this line, and I can do pirates over here on this line. I don't know if he has that capability. So I think that those are some of the factors that go into play in regard to how your factory and production line is set up and whether or not it's only a single game at a time. You know, at Williams Valley, it was two games at a time, a Valley game and a Williams game. And, you know, the two never crossed over. That was just the way that it was. and the only other time we ever went back in to redo a game was with the Harley-Davidson license that I had gotten and I had gotten Harley-Davidson to agree to buy 220 Harley-Davidson's for their dealers and distributors and whatever else not to be resold into the public necessarily and they pre-ordered pre-paid for it and i talked the powers that be to go back on the line and do 220 harley davidson's and we did and we delivered it to harley davidson and that was that but there was never there was never any talk of going back in and i guess doug duva and chicago gaming have gone back in and have shown there's a market 20 some odd years later for medieval madness. You know, the thought was never to go back in where we cut something short. It was always move on. I would send out to distributors last call. Here's your last chance. And then and then there was a new one. So I don't know if that answered the question totally. But again, I give all the kudos and all the credit in the world to Gary to being able to create that as an opportunity for everybody and for Doug to go back in to mine some gold from games that people thought highly enough that they wanted one. And for Jack to at least do some multiple iterations on Hobbit and Wizard of Oz and don't know why he did not choose to do the same for Pirates, other than the fact that maybe the response and the accolades came too late for him to accommodate that request. So one question that popped into my head while you were talking is, when you're working at Bally Williams, what determined which game was going to be a Williams and which one was going to be a Bally? Good question. It becomes a little bit sensitive, but with time passing, what the heck. So With the combining of forces Which took place over the summer of 1988 After I had started There were the ballet designers Ward Pemberton And his brother Kent And it was Dennis Peter Perry And there were the Williams designers And it was Uh The two would never meet. And what wound up happening was police force sold more games than Elvira, the first Elvira. And Dennis felt very strongly that if Elvira had been a Williams game, it would have sold more. The Bally name didn't have the same luster that it once had, which was true. I mean, the latter part of Bally, as Bally under Bally Midway before Williams purchased the amusement game division, it had fallen on hard times. And, you know, games like Cyclone and F-14 and others had, you know, basically elevated, firepower had elevated Williams to being in a premium position, premier position, if you will, over Bally. because Bally had really taken the lead back in the late 70s. So it was Pat Lawler who stepped up specifically on Adam's family to say, I'll show you, because Pat had already done Earthshaker, had already done Banzai Run, and he was willing to say that it doesn't matter if it's Bally or Williams. Now, I have to say, at that point in time, under the hood, it was all Williams. We had kind of gone through all of the Bally parts that had existed on Truck Stop, had existed on Atlantis had existed on Transporter By then everything was the same So to answer your question Pat demonstrated that it could be a Valley game and sell an enormous number of games. And then it just became a question of was the theme more appropriate? Not the designer necessarily. Was the theme more appropriate for a Williams game versus a Valley game? I mean, Steve Ritchie was going to always do Williams games because Steve was Williams. Dennis could do either. He could do Williams or he could do Valley. It didn't really matter. So he could do Whitewater and he could do Indianapolis 500 and have it be under two different brands. So it tended to be more brand-specific as well as wherever the heart laid, if you will, for the given designer and design team. Hopefully that kind of answers the question in some way. but it wasn't necessarily a flip of a coin where it's like, okay, this is who it's going to be. Some of it tended to be just timing. So if Python was going to do a Williams game, then he's going to turn around and do a Valley game. Python and Barry could do that. So it was just a question of kind of filling in where things were on schedule and production as to what game was going to happen next. And again, truthfully and admittedly, sometimes it was more a question of theme. if something tended to have more of a female-centric approach, let's call it, in its art or its theme, that was always going to be Bally. If something was going to be much more, you know, I won't say hardcore necessarily, but something that had some kind of nature of speed, of whatever, it was probably going to be not only Steve, but it was probably going to be a Williams game. And if you go back and you take a look at the titles that came out during that decade, of 88 to 99, I think it pretty much holds true that there isn't anything there that you would say, God, you know, I'm surprised that that wasn't a Williams game. That seemed more like a Williams game or conversely, I'm surprised that wasn't a ballet game. That seemed much more like a ballet title, a ballet theme. I mean, what do you guys think about that? Is there anything that stands out where maybe I'm missing the boat and miss me, miss remembering that actually fit. exactly with what I was thinking, but I hadn't put my finger on exactly what designated a ballet versus a Williams. So I have Black Rose in my basement and I was just thinking, yeah, that sounds like a ballet game. And it is. Yep. It's interesting because when the acquisition first happened, one of the things that I requested and scheduled was a meeting of all of the creative people. artists, programmers, designers from both sides, both camps, to meet in a separate conference room off-site and up on a board. I wanted to get a list. What makes a ballet game? What makes a Williams game? So that all of us would be on the same page. I thought it was important to express that. Because truthfully, in the very beginning, there was some not hostility. That's the wrong word. There was some friendly competition, if you will, understanding that we just brought in the bastard children into Williams. You know, how are they going to be treated? Are they going to be accepted? Are they going to be part of the family or are we going to keep them separate? I know that Jeff Nauman and Brian Collin felt that way coming in from Midway to what was then Williams Video Games. You know, were they going to be excluded in some way, shape or form? And it took a little bit of time to get people friendly under one roof and to understand that we are all family. And the brands are kind of like meaningless unto themselves other than, again, how those brands translate into the themes and the titles that are being done and who's working on them. So one question I had, and this really goes along with sustainability of pinball. I know with car manufacturers or these other manufacturers, they actually have some sort of program that they'll send their technicians to to learn how to maintain them. I've always found it interesting that pinball is such a complex beast, but a lot of the manufacturers rely on outside either distributors or third party people to figure out how to maintain the games, which is one of the most difficult things in a pinball machine. And do you know of any of the companies that are making pinball machines? Have they thought about putting sort of a guide, either an online guide or a book or whatever, or videos to say, hey, here's like the pinball basics of how to maintain your game. Here's the pinball mid-level. Here's the advanced stuff. or like what is their philosophy in maintaining the games that they send out there so you can play them in 20 years? Interesting and good question, because one of the factors that has limited pinball's growth and popularity in the outside world is just that, the lack of technical support. There are no technicians or not enough who are skilled in keeping games functioning on location at a bar in a family entertainment center. There used to be. That was part and parcel. And there used to be a time when the factories, all of them, all of us, had technical people. Greg McKay, Pat Riley, Tom Cahill from Williams Valley, Bernie Powers from Valley, back in the day, who was doing seminars and tech schools with the changeover from electromechanics to solid state. He would go around to various distributorships. You have Pat Powers and others now at Stern. And you have others, I believe, that exist in the other companies. The problem that you have is that it's very difficult to do the type of what I believe is necessary hands-on approach when you're working primarily and solely for the home collector. You have to understand something. When you were working with distributorships that were full-line coin-operated amusement game distributorships who did open houses, you could go up to Lieberman in Minnesota. You could go to Betson in New Jersey. You could go back in a day to C.A. Robinson in California, Greater Southern, American Vending Sales, and you could get location owners and operators there, and you could open up the game and you could take them through it hand by hand, part by part, and take them through the entire process. You could do tech schools. You could have their technicians be there and learn on the spot. Look, when we started up a pinball league at GameWorks, it was my son Josh and others who took a couple of the techs that were there to keep track of the video games and the novelty games and taught them how to fix pinball machines. It was local people. Dan Cascetto comes to mind, Gavin comes to mind, and others who fix games on location. They're hired to come in on some regular basis and make sure that all the games are working. And ideally, through the network, they get to come into people's homes and make sure that their games are working. And I think that what you're suggesting in terms of doing it virtually in some way, shape, or form is wonderful. So ideally, if you had all the manufacturers currently in play, bringing people in that could provide a tutorial, if you will, a hands-on, here, under the hood, let us take you through this. Let us show you how to fix these things. I think it would be great. I mean, it used to happen that way in various coin-operated amusement game distributorships, at various state trade shows. But the problem that you have now is that that world hasn't really been tapped into and everything is being done for home. Enthusiasts, hobbyists and many of those folks either have a certain level of skills or they don't and they need some help. And I think that if any of the various pinball festivals and events and shows were to say, hi, we're going to do a technical forum. and it's going to be with Stern being there and Jersey Jack and Spooky and Chicago Gaming, American Pinball and Deep Root and whoever else I'm missing are all going to have people there and they're going to have a machine and they're going to open it up and they're going to take you through their system. I personally think that hands-on a personal approach is best, but I also understand and appreciate the fact that things are being done virtually now and probably are going to be done virtually much more so in the future. And, yes, if there's programs that you can set up for any of the manufacturers who say, look, this is what we're going to now do and take you through our manual, take you through basic setups, take you through basic fixes, that would be great. I think that that's what's lacking right now in regard to people being more comfortable in buying machines who do not have a particular inclination to being either mechanical or electrical in fixing things. I'm not. I mean, I need help. And, you know, there have been times where, you know, I've looked at my games and it's somewhat sad. and I know that my sons would give me all sorts of grief. But, you know, I can work on the old mechanical ones. It's the new stuff where, you know, I don't want to plug in a board and screw up any of the pins, and suddenly it's like terrible. But I think that, you know, locations find themselves now with people who are independently going in and have taken on the chore of maintaining and fixing games on a contract basis. The only way that we are going to expand pinball into the real world is by providing technical support because any and all of those locations don't have it. And that's what's holding pinball back from kind of reaching where it can get to. Yeah. And from a from a medicine standpoint, there's two two things that I deal with on a daily basis. One is I know something's wrong, but I don't know what's wrong. That's the first step. The second step is, okay, now that I know what's wrong, how do I fix it? And that's the two-prong approach. I am with you, Roger. I have 12 to 13 games, and for the most part, I really don't have that kind of time to troubleshoot. so I there is a technician here that I I call up and I say hey I've got these three problems on games uh come and check them out and he can he can do it in two hours where it would take me two to three days of frustration and possibly injuring the machine by me trying to uh to get under the under the hood and do it I can do basic stuff but you know what I'm saying is that I can't actually fix a lot of things that are going on. Well, and then the problem sometimes is you can go into a self-test mode and it pinpoints the problem. And then to your point, it's like, all right, now what do I do? Where do I go from here? And, you know, I know that where my limitations are. And to your point as well, I don't want to do something where I'm going to break something even more than what it is. And, you know, I've had my sons out here and Joshua has been kind enough to leave all sorts of notes on many of my games saying, here's what the problems are, Dad. Here's some boards and things for you to put into these games, Dad. Here's fuses to put into your games, Dad. And it's like, yeah. So when you're here next, do it. Or have somebody come over and do it for a birthday present or whatever else. And I think we'll get to that point. But, you know, I think for average people, it becomes a much more daunting task. And then I'm calling up the company or I'm calling up the dealer or distributor that I got the game from. Can you come over and fix this? And that becomes an enormous amount of stress that is put on all of the people who are manufacturing the game and selling the game. As I said, you know, previously when the factories were in full mode and 99% of our business was commercial, we did have the distributor and we did have the tech support internally to be able to handle those problems. if somebody was calling from a bar and needed somebody to come over to visit with them. Whatever the case might be, you know, we were able to do that. We were not necessarily able to do that if we were selling to the home through a distributor because typically what would wind up happening is, oh, Williams is the name on the game. We're going to call up Williams. Hi. Hi, Mrs. Smith from Fargo, North Dakota. We can't help you, but here's our distributor in the area. Please contact them and they can send a tech out to help you. You know, it's one of the big barriers, if you will, for pinball to become much more accessible. You know, we're not Best Buy. As a manufacturer, any manufacturers, what kind of warranty can we put on? What kind of service can we do to follow up? There's not a central place. You have to go back through that dealer or distributor as part of the channel, which is why when I hear some companies or individuals over the years talking about selling direct, it's like, good luck. I don't know how you're going to accommodate that person calling up from Kansas, from Alabama, from wherever, who has a problem with their purchase. Are you going to fly somebody out? Are you going to send them something with, you know, a tutorial on how to put it in? Are you going to guarantee that they're going to put it in the right way? Wow. You know, I can't see it. But again, the world is changing before my eyes. And maybe I'm just old school and not pragmatic enough to understand that, Roger, those concerns don't exist. So I have a few other questions, too. Um, so marketing, so your whole background has been in marketing and you talked about being able to elevate pinball in 1988. So if I called you, uh, if I were one of the major, uh, so say you knew someone who was the marketing guru at one of the major companies may have a relationship with them. And he called and said, Hey dad, how can I do this? What would you say? I would absolutely give him advice, but Zachary doesn't need it. He's doing he's doing great on his own. It would be look. You're right. He's he's doing great. I'm just saying, say you were in the driver's seat. What would you do? Oh, well. I'm old school to me, print medium and broadcast. and I know everything is done now online. There's streaming, there's podcasts, and there's Pinside and all the rest of that. I'd be reaching out to newspapers and magazines. I'd go back to the things that I kind of carved my teeth on 30 years ago. I'd want to be on major TV. I'd want to be part of a backdrop. And some of that happens. Don't get me wrong. And, you know, the CES coverage with Stern and Comic-Con and all that is fantastic. And some news coverage and some specials. And, you know, we don't talk about drunk history or anything else, you know, all of those things. But I guess that I would try to do it even more so. I would want to reach people who are not necessarily pinball people and preach to the choir. I'd want to try to expand it out in some way, shape or form and to get to that media that is focused on a totally different world and marketplace, both in trade media as well as consumer. But, you know, again, to me, it would be a different process. Look, I will be the first one to say every year Joshua and Zachary reach out to me because, Dad, there's a new state championship coming. We need a press release. Dad, there's a new IFPA. It's going to be IFPA number, you know, 19 or whatever. We need a press release. And I will do the press release, and I will get it to them, and they'll do some massaging or whatever else. And then with Zach and Josh doing that, it goes out into the world. And suddenly, you know, I wind up seeing if I go to the IFPA website that, you know, there's been this news item on somebody on the local news touting their player who's representing the state of Missouri or there's something else as a profile. So I know that they've gotten it out there. And I guess my feeling would be to do it even more so, to work in greater tandem. And maybe that's happening already with some of the license themes, to see if you can't work with other licensees to do joint promotions, consumer promotions, dealer incentives. those kinds of sweepstakes and other activities and events that I did in the past is probably where I would be fundamentally of wanting to just have a constant stream of information, news, whatever. I don't know if that makes any sense at all or if it crosses the barrier of, well, Roger, if you kept track of what Stern's doing, they're already doing all of that and even more and I would be the first one to say fantastic yeah Stern actually has really I've noticed the last few years has done an amazing job of being much better and more proactive into the market of trying to get people talking about pinball they've been more active in actually putting forth the information and what's going on I I think that Zach is actually doing a great job. One question I. Well, thanks. I'm actually very, very proud of him. And, you know, it's great to know that he has the skills, the talent and the support of everybody there to to do all that he can to not only promote Stern, but obviously to also promote the whole idea of pinball being something that everybody has to experience. so with a lot of this pinball stuff out there how you mentioned it before one of the limitations on uh on having pinball tournaments and being able to show things is that the better you are the longer the game which is why you see how uh you know the pinberg banks or any of them they've been modified basically to an exceptionally challenging level so you don't have someone who competes on them for 30 minutes or 40 minutes the how do you actually translate that to being able to show it on tv or show it not necessarily on tv maybe maybe streaming or that type of thing we have talked when we when we had Keith Elwin on we talked about uh the escape from nublar was actually a great speed run option for these type of tournaments to be able to say okay here's a quick way of saying, hey, you have less than five minutes. How do you do this thing on the pinball machine And someone can understand what they doing But what are your thoughts of how to actually get because they have video games that are being competed on and they actually being televised and they have a much bigger market But pinball still tends to be in their own little niche. Yeah, I find it remarkable because of all the streaming that has been done at various tournaments. I guess, what is it, Carl D'Python Anghelo has his setup where the camera's overhead, and you have people that are doing play-by-play commentary and all the rest of it. I mean, it's become so sophisticated where you're not only getting the action, but in many ways you're actually getting a tutorial on this is where they should be going. This is the shot that needs to be done. This is the sequence. I mean, you're kind of learning on the fly. And I don't know what it is for the hesitancy, especially now in this day and age where people are watching virtual IndyCar racing and NASCAR racing and all the rest of it. Why? No one has reached out, and maybe they have, and there's been hesitancy or there's no time in the schedule for an ESPN or somebody else to pick up any of the vintage stuff that's been done or any new things. So with that out of the way, I think that, yes, if there's something that's going to be time-based, What I mentioned before in regard to that first IFPA tournament that we staged, we didn't really do post adjustments. We didn't make things harder. There were still random features. I mean, we didn't go in and really do lots of tweaking the way that games are now. And I've played in a Pin Masters and I've played in others where, you know, my God, the games have become so much more difficult based on my level of familiarity, if you will. So I'll use it that way. You know, posts are changed and tilt settings. So, you know, you're shortening the games. Now, when you talk about time, I think of something like, I guess, Pin Masters where there's a target score to reach. OK, or some other thing like a pin golf where there is something that you wind up putting out there for somebody to do. And I guess it's like this mini game within a game for Jurassic. Where you just have to get this one shot, can you get this one shot, can you get the five inline targets in a row and how long will it take you to do it? I think that what we may find are going to be tournaments within tournaments. Look, for anybody that plays golf, maybe they do or do not watch the long drive competition. I don't know. And do they get the same, you know, same feel for that if there is something like a miniature golf competition? I know there was some show that was out that Stephon Curry was behind. But I think that there are ways to accommodate it being more user-friendly, more viewer-friendly for pinball. And I think the biggest thing right now already exists. You are able to actually place a camera over the play field. Another camera is set to see the back glance. And another camera is set to watch the people commentating. I mean, it's wonderful. That can work on TV just as easily as it can working on my computer screen. It's just a question of getting some station, some executive to buy into it and say, here, try this. There's an audience out there. And I think that the bigger thing is the fact of there's not the same kind of audience that exists, you mentioned before, in terms of e-games. That audience does exist. There are sponsorships. There are people that are, you know, playing with a certain kind of joystick or a certain type of system. You know, there's a certain age demographic so that advertisers know that that's the group that they want to be with. It's very difficult to go after a liquor company for a beer when you have somebody like Escher Lefkoff winning who's, you know, underage. but again I think that there are ways around it and it's just a question of buying a bullet and going after it you know for Papa for the first Papa's God I got Ben and Jerry's ice cream we had Subway that was one of the sponsors we had a trip that we gave away I mentioned before in terms of Valley Super Shooter it was a Datsun 280z that was won in 1978. My God. I mean, that price was better than watching professional bowlers on a Saturday afternoon competing for a $5,000 prize and giving away an actual card just for playing pinball. So I think that there are opportunities and I think it's just a question of how does that get mobilized? And maybe it is through an association. Maybe it is through PAPA. Maybe it is through IFPA, as opposed to being through a single manufacturer or a group of manufacturers forming some association. And I don't know if that's even remotely possible based on the fact that everybody is fighting for their little square part of ground. I don't know if you would ever get everybody under one roof saying, all right, look, let's fund something. I think it has to be through an association or through some type of an event. And maybe there's some central force that brings together TPF, GDC, Louisville, Houston, Pinball Expo and whatever else. And they say, look, this is how we're going to do it. And, you know, among all of us, we reach. 150,000 attendees. And then we're going to band together all of the different associations and events. And maybe this is already taking place and I'm speaking ill of not knowing about it and not being familiar with it. But then you take all the things in Europe and you bring them all together. I mean, there's got to be some, some way to do it where we can get some kind of a broadcasting help, I guess. So Roger, Andrew, you've been around for a little bit. You've seen the industry. It almost seems like it changes every decade from, you know, from EMs to solid states to, you know, Bally Williams area to now we're into this modern gaming is what we're calling it. Where do you think the future lies with pinball? Interesting. I think that obviously there's been an attempt and I think it's with Jerry as two games connected where you're playing against each other kind of like what we did with NBA Fastbreak I know that Jack incorporated some way that dialed in you could play with your phone to control the flippers that there's codes that you can go on and post things. I think those are all component parts of the game itself. So if you're asking the question, I think that the outside way of approaching pinball, where they're competitively head-on, two games next to each other, posting things virtually and scores and things doing that now, I guess where somebody gets to post and show how they're playing and the fact that they did this event, this particular objective in four minutes, who can beat it, all of those types of things not only exist now, but they're going to start to mature, and they're going to become much more vibrant. and things that we are going to be expecting on a much more regular basis. I think where you are potentially asking is where are the games going to go? I mean, right now we have a camera that's embedded in Stranger Things. How is that going to work? What other technologies are going to become part of pinball? Are we going to see more virtual imagery like that that exists on Stranger Things or as it existed previously in another era on Pinball 2000, where you're able to project things in some way, shape or form and take a space or an area and suddenly it is populated by something? or the way that Jerry does it with his screen as a major part of his play field, and you're rolling over things or, in quotes, hitting things abstractly. And by doing so, you're scoring points and getting further into whatever the gameplay objectives are. I think as long as there is something that is physically interactive, however you wind up displaying that in whatever way shape or form that's going to be what the next era or generation of pinball is i think the other accoutrements if you will become a subset for the people who are truly pinball fanatics probably the wrong word but pinball enthusiasts skilled pinball players, pinball still needs to be accessible to the average person. It still cannot be something where there is a level of intimidation, where somebody is frustrated, not understanding what they should or shouldn't do. It should not become so complex with all these other extraordinary aspects to it. There still needs to be a basic, intuitive, straightforward part of pinball. It is why I believe, and we've discussed it previously, why some of the games from previous eras have endured, have become games that everybody really kind of likes. In some ways, maybe an outpouring of, God, I wish that they would remake Stars. What a super spectacular game if they only did that. There was a greater level of, I won't call it simplicity, but there was a greater level of purity for those games that have withstood the test of time in the same way that great books stand the test of time. Wonderful movies you don't mind going back to and watching over and over again, even though they may be 30, 40, 50, 60 years old. I think that there is something to that that needs to exist for pinball. I think that some of the more complicated games that all of us wound up manufacturing during that period of time in the 90s, with a lot of extraneous pieces and parts that became more difficult to maintain, more difficult to service. I think that those are the games that people probably don't have as much appreciation for, that they fell victim to the time where everybody was more concentrating on elevating and elevating rather than remaining pure to the essence of pinball. And I think that, you know, there is room and a place for that. I think total nuclear annihilation proves that as a single level game. I may not think that the layout and the play field are the best that they could be, but at least it showed that if you can provide something that is dazzling visually and audibly, all of it comes together. It's telling a story, and it's a question of how you tell that story. And if you break that story into chapters and you say, look, here's a sub game that you can play. let's see how you like that. I think the capabilities with the amount of memory in games allows you to do that. Look, sometimes we may do that ourselves when we're playing just casually. Let me see if I can just destroy all five castles. Let me see if I can just do that. I'm just going to concentrate on that. I mean, I think that for people who have games in their collection, How do you keep them fresh? You keep them fresh because maybe you wind up doing it a little bit differently when you approach the game on that Thursday night versus how you played it Tuesday night. So you wind up doing it as a game within a game for yourself. I think that's what the outgrowth is. And if the game has enough depth, if the game has enough architecture to it in regard to its layout and design. Yeah, I mean, look, my sons have joked about my style of play. Yeah, our dad will make a ramp, even if it's not worth anything, just because he can make the ramp and he'll do it over and over and over again. Well, yeah, it's not a bad thing. But I think that that becomes something, look, Maybe the best way that I can describe it is with an example. We had a game. Wow. I've just lost it for a moment. All right, guys, help me. What was the game with Captain Bizarre? Dr. Dude. Thank you. We had Dr. Dude. We had Dr. Dude at Pinball Expo, which was the tournament game. I wanted to be really nice. Big mistake. I put in that you could get an extra ball after you hit 100 ramps. I didn't think that anybody was going to make 100 shots to get the extra ball. Guess what? I was wrong. People heard about it, found out about it, and suddenly it was like the rest of the game did not matter. The example I'm using is if you have a game like that at home and whether there's an extra ball waiting for you or whatever else, you can wind up testing yourself. I have to believe, and guys, help me if I'm wrong because you play. I don't know if you play in tournaments or leagues, but you have your games at home. Do you ever find yourself taking a different approach to playing the game or do you just play it the same way each and every time? I was actually just playing Medieval Madness today and I was doing exactly what you were saying I was saying I'm just going to focus on the peasant ramp or I'm just going to focus on the damsel ramp and I was just seeing how far I could go just by playing that and it certainly was interesting because usually it's oh let's just see how far I can get in the game but when I focused on one little thing yes it did make a difference same thing with Black Rose I've done similar things with Black Rose to say I just want to focus on this aspect of the game. And, yes, it does make me come back to it more by partitioning different goals. And, see, that's what I'm saying. I think that that's the beauty of the two games you just mentioned and other games that are out there and what is taking place now where there are different challenges going on and different ways to highlight one's level of playing expertise and skill. And it means that you have this evolving universe under glass that is more than just one storyline. And I think that that is the beauty of pinball. So when you ask me, where is it going? I think we're going to find that to be more and more evident in future games. I think the designers and the programmers are going to start working on those types of games within games, the same way that video games have had it on any number of occasions where there have been different ways to kind of progress and segment so that you're not taking, you know, all the time in the world to get through from beginning to end. you get to do some side trips. And I think the beauty of pinball is it's already there. People probably haven't done it consciously unless they're practicing, unless they're practicing for a tournament. And maybe you want to really perfect that shot, that approach because you know that that's how the game is going to be set up. So you want to make certain that you're going to forget about all this bad stuff over here. That's not going to buy me anything. I want to concentrate on all of this. So I think that that is where the future lies for pinball development going forward. Aside from the home arcades and the bars, where do future locations of pinball go? Wow. Without the COVID? Yeah. Yeah. Let's pretend like we're in a normal world. I'm just wondering where the other location, the people who can't buy a game themselves, where can they go to play and where should they go? OK, because they disappeared in my lifetime. No, no, no, no. And it's a great question because I'm going to go back to the end of last year. Where could you go? I could go to a bowling center. I could go to a family entertainment center. I could go to a barcade or a bar arcade because I guess somebody has already copyrighted, trademarked that name. I can go to a bus station. Any place where anybody has time on their hands, any place in any business that wants to have people come back more often and stay longer. I can go to a casino that may have a game room attachment to where the cards are being played and where the slots are being played. Airport terminal. I mean, I played games in a variety of places. Those are the places where you could find games. And that still exists. I can go to a hotel and there's a game room next to the fitness center. think about it. The scope and the magnitude of where you can place a pinball machine is literally limitless. And if I go back in time to when I was working on my book, the pictures that we took, again, only a fraction of what we actually put in to the book, because we ran out of space, it was staggering. It was everywhere you could find a pinball machine. I still believe that that's possible today. Again, the only thing holding it back is the ability to maintain a game and, more importantly, the cost. But that's not to suggest that someplace can't buy an older game at a fraction of the cost and at least have something there for their clientele. If I take a look at senior centers and ball machines, If I take a look at automobile repair places like a Pep Boys or a Midas, where I'm going to be there for an hour or two, okay, place a game there. Pizza Hut, pizza places where I'm ordering and waiting, put a game there. Put a pinball machine. And some of the places I'm talking about already have a game, probably have a redemption game or maybe a video game or something. Put in a pinball machine. And I think that that is where the opportunities are for us to get a much broader dispersal of growth and much more touch points to an audience that may, in fact, become buyers. You know, wouldn't it be great to go into your local pizza parlor? And I know that we did this actually with Josh when he was in high school here. They didn't do what I'm about to say, but they could have. They put in pinball machines because the children yes I guess I call them children The children who were coming over from high school for their lunch incentivize them If you get a high score on this game or a certain score I'm going to give you a free soft drink with your pizza. I'm going to give you a dollar off of your pizza. I mean, use the pinball machine as a promotional vehicle. Every mall should have a game room. If they don't have a game room, they should have some area where there are games that are set up for people to play. And work with the local merchants where if you get something really, really good, you get a couple of dollars off. It spits out because we have the capability. You can vend something. It spits out a coupon for a discount at the record store, at the shoe store, at the department store, in the food court. I mean, pinball is just, I think, the most logical way of being able to provide entertainment and what I would call value-added. I know that there were attempts and have been to put a ticket dispenser on a pinball machine so when it's in a family entertainment center, you can play the pinball and then redeem tickets the same way that you can if you played skee-ball. There's nothing wrong with trying to do that. so don't know if that answers the question but yeah i mean i think that there is limitless opportunity and very significant barriers to tap into that opportunity but the opportunity is there so over the last few decades i feel like pinballs went through a change gameplay wise i know i know that we've seen advancements from, let's say, even the 80s games that were starting to get game rules versus now that it seems like everything's so in-depth. Do you think, because we were talking about trying to get stuff televised, do you think games are going to get too in-depth that people lose interest to get involved in pinball, that the simplicity's starting to go away in favor of longer ball times and whatnot? Simple answer, yes. I think it's daunting and overwhelming for someone who is not into pinball to watch somebody play a brand new game that's streaming or part of a tournament where it's like, oh, my God. I mean, what's what's going on versus watching somebody play a game from the 70s or the 60s where it's like, oh, OK, it's just the ABC. It's the red targets and the yellow targets and the blue targets. It's this, that, and the other. I mean, that's still compelling to watch. It's very much understandable. The couple of times where people have, I don't know why, have requested me to sit in and put on the headphones and do some play-by-play, it's like, I don't know what to say about that game. I know what I would do, but I'm not going to say it because I'm going to sound stupid. Because going back to my sons, I would hit the ramp. because I talk about ebb and flow. I talk about the rhythm of the game. And right now, everything is so strategic in regard to how people approach a game and how they play it. You could literally take off 40% or 50% of the play field, and that would be sufficient in terms of how they have carved out their mindset and approach to playing the game. I mean, I felt that way playing in Pinmasters. I had to get 30 million points on Black Rose. All right, how am I going to do that? Well, I can play it this way, but this way is not really the most effective way. Let me do it this way. Or I can play Elvira and the Party Monsters, and I need 3 million, so why am I bothering doing anything else? Let me just go for the ramp over and over again, and I'm going to get the million plus, and I'm done if I can make that shot. So I think that it becomes a bit more cumbersome, if you will, in regard to the way some of the current games are being designed and the amount of depth that is being put into play. There was a situation years and years ago where I was approached by this organization coming out of Canada that wanted to create standardized pinball machines because their vision was that if they did it the right way, they could create their own Brunswick or AMF type of center. And Brunswick AMF being bowling centers where all the games would be the same. And then you could have leagues on those games. And I thought that would be marvelous. The problem that I pointed out to them was, and it kind of falls into place for people who are bowling people, the amount of oil when you're bowling and whatever else, no two pinball machines of the same type, same model, play the same. So if you're on alley 32 at the bowling alley versus alley six, it may not necessarily hold the hook that you're playing the same way. And you have to make those kind of adjustments and accommodations. So that really didn't go anywhere in terms of what they wanted to do. But in essence, what you're potentially talking about is, can there be a way, and this would be extraordinary, to come up with a televisable tournament type of machine for people to play? and do multiple versions. I mean, it's somewhat similar to, you know, taking what was done with, oh, I can see it. I can feel it. This turn heads up. Juicy Melons. Oh, okay. No, no, no. What's the name of Dennis in Greg's game? Yeah, it was Woe Nelly. Woe Nelly. Thank you. Wow. So see, time and age, Wonelli and turning it into the Paps game and whatever else is taking a single game and not suggesting that would be a tournament game, although not suggesting that it couldn't be. But taking something and saying, OK, here, we're going to bring it down to its bare essentials. And maybe there are ways to do something like that where it doesn't seem to be overwhelming to the viewer. who is not necessarily totally prolifically into pinball. Look, a lot of people don't watch golf unless they're golfers. And even then they may not watch it because it's too complex and confusing. How do you get people to watch rugby unless they're familiar with watching rugby? Soccer, how boring, but not really if you really understand it. I mean, sports, I think, is the quintessential way of showing as an example or what wound up happening watching people playing poker on TV. Until they were able to have a camera that could show you the hold cards, you were lost. You didn't know what was going on. That turned that entire endeavor, I won't call it a sport, into something truly engaging. Wow, he has pocket eights. I wonder what he's going to do with that. I mean, you now knew what everybody had. It was like you were the cheater looking over their shoulders. Chess is an amazing game. Televising it, not so amazing, unless people really understand the intricacies and the strategies. Shelby Lyman did a great job with the Boris Spassky-Bobby Fisher match back in 72. They brought chess to life. Who knew that there was a history with that kind of gambit, that kind of opening? It's the same thing with pinball. Just got to give it a chance and start it with the right games so that people can be brought into an era of more complex layouts. Does that make sense at all, or am I just missing the boat totally and sounding completely silly and stupid and naive? it sounds like you're trying to streamline something for a television audience which i think is it makes sense to have a limited rule set but still show the uh the skill i think that actually makes sense okay good i don't want my sons to come back at me afterwards if they listen to this and say dad cannot believe how foolish you sounded dad cannot believe you said that that's my big concern in life so so i have one last question about licensing and one we've really appreciated you spending your time here it's been uh amazing storytelling that many aspects that i don't think anybody has heard before they've heard referencing but it's it's been an amazing night um your main job has always been it's been it's been a it's been a marathon that's okay we my apologies for a marathon we prepared for it but uh i i okay good i wrote a billion questions and we've got to about a third of them your main job is licensing it's been licensing your most of your career and licensing has completely changed in the last 30 years where it seems so many things are fragmented that you don't get to buy, you don't buy a Terminator 2 license. What you're doing is you're buying the music license or the theme license or this actor's license. So what is essential in making a good license? And I'll use Jurassic Park as an example. With Stern, They have the name and theme, Jurassic Park and the music and Nedry, and that's basically it. But it has come together as a great integration where it doesn't feel like you're missing anything. So exactly what is essential to making a good license? I think what makes a good license is that – well, let me back up for one second. I think when you're able to bring the signature elements of a particular brand, personality, movie, book, whatever, when you can bring that to life, I think that's where the magic happens. now if you are taking something and then creating your own unique path which is effectively what happened with jurassic and what keith did you're seeing the elements that you know so well and they are creating this world they've done all of that remarkable work which engages you and i understand and know that there's been some feedback that hasn't been overly positive in terms of god i I wish that they had done something with the movies. Where's Chris Pratt? Where's Bryce Howard? I mean, why didn't they do this, that or the other? And it's like, no, let them be creative within the context of what they did. It's the same thing with Deadpool and having the wonderful animations as part of the screen action that interfaces. So I think that there are a variety of ways to approach content. My feeling has always been that whatever is necessary to carry things through, that's what I'm going to do. There were many licenses that I decided not to go after, despite maybe designers wanting them, design teams wanting them, because I couldn't get the talent necessary, the images necessary, the assets necessary to make it happen. And I think that you take a look at it from the standpoint of let's look at a movie, just a general. I need to have the stems and splits. That's the breakout of music, speech, sound effects. Need to have assets. What am I working with? the world has fundamentally changed in the past couple of years because of one particular inclusion in the world of pinball. It's called an LCD. Before, when it was a dot matrix, I could get away with doing Dracula the way that we did, taking the movie footage, giving it to the guys, and suddenly that is Gary Oldham and Winona Ryder dancing on the dot matrix. Now I actually physically need that footage, to display on the LCD. When we were doing Terminator 2 Judgment Day as a video game, George Petro and Jack Haeger needed Robert Patrick as a T-1000 to face a certain way. At the end of the shoot of that day, they asked Robert Patrick to put on his arms. And can you face this way? Because the way that it is in the movie, you're facing to the left, and that doesn't work for the angle that we need for the video game because that was a visual part. I could get away with him without doing it that way to have him be on the dot matrix display, but for the video game I couldn't because the guys were going to take that and they were going to animate off of that. What I do in the other part of my world with slot machines is getting footage. It is getting access to all of those particular pieces of film, movies for the mass, for the Karate Kid, for Casablanca, for Singing in the Rain. It's getting Penn and Teller to go into studio and doing work for us. It was getting Aerosmith, Stephen Tyler and the rest of the guys to go into studio when we were doing Revolution X and to do the stunt work, go in for the audio. and put all of that together right now for a pinball machine, I need to have those elements for the LCD. Either that or I need to make an accommodation. I need to do it in some form of animation. And maybe that was a decision that was made for Jurassic. Maybe it was, you know, we can't get all the right footage that we want, so we're going to create our own mythology here within the context of the Jurassic universe. and I appreciate and I applaud what they have done because what they have done is something that is truly magnificent and spectacular. So you're drawn into that world. But again, I need speech. I need speech calls. I need music. I need visuals. And I need all the other associated elements that give me that sense of being part of that world and universe. And I think when you look at games, however anybody feels about the execution, look at the amount of stuff, for lack of a better word, that's in Willy Wonka. The amount of stuff that is in Pirates. The amount of stuff in Wizard of Oz. The amount of stuff, I guess, that is going to be in Rick and Morty. the amount of stuff from what I've heard and seen that's going to be on Hot Wheels. I mean, you kind of go down the line with all of that, and you realize that this is a different world when you are looking at licensed content, and how is everybody going to deal with it? You know, WrestleMania, however good, bad, or indifferent that people thought that it was, had the little monitor, and you had actual footage of people wrestling. I mean, that's a starting point of doing things like that. So I think that the world of licensing becomes much more multidimensional. And for me personally, it really becomes a question of what does the design team need for me as a licensing person? Whatever they need may not be sufficient for what I think they need. and I'm going to try to secure for them everything that I believe that they need and whether or not they choose to use it is up to them. But I want to ensure that they can get everything and anything available and possible to ensure the best quality product. And that goes for many of the other clients that I work with in the video game space, in arcades and slot machines and everything else. So, you know, I think the question then becomes, what is the cost to get that? Is it going to be cost prohibitive? Do I have to go through extraordinary lengths to get approvals? And in some cases, yes, but if it's worth the effort, then it's worth the effort, and I'm willing to go to the mat on all of my projects to ensure that everything is there. Nothing is missing, and if something is missing, then I would walk away from it. I mean, I'll be very blunt. I'm not going to do Apollo 13 and have Tom Hanks in a helmet. I'm sorry. I mean, I have to have everything be absolutely, totally pristine and right. I can't get away with not having the principal characters, the principal actors, and whatever else. I want to have a Maya Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford, and everybody else, and thank God as the first time he's ever done it, and he's done subsequent studio sessions, having John Rhys-Davies be my voiceover, but also having speech picked up where you hear Sean Connery, and you hear Harrison Ford, and you hear all the other main characters, which is that was important for me to be able to have us convey that story. Does that kind of make sense at all? No, that makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, it was all – that's all fantastic. You know, Roger, we really appreciate you coming on. We appreciate you answering all of our questions that we had. And it's just been fantastic. Like it's – I can't believe – it's been a quick three hours. I'm not going to lie. Has it really been three hours? Yeah. It really has. I appreciate your patience and your indulgence. Well, Roger, we did have one follow-up question from Jeff Teolis. He wanted to know who's your favorite son and why is it Zach? Jeff will always be the favorite. He knows that. That's a running gag for us. I love it. I love it. Well, awesome. I'm going to have to put a pin in it, and we're going to have to wrap things up now because it's – yeah. Well, it's probably past everybody's bedtime now, so yes. We have young kids that we need to feed and get to bed. So, again, really appreciate it. Talking to a legend, this has been a dream of ours, and we are very appreciative of you, your legacy, everything your sons do for pinball the enthusiasm that you and your sons have for pinball is contagious and it sets us off for a good future of pinball even in a post-COVID corona world well and I have to thank both of you this has been a pleasure thanks for thinking that I might be worthwhile to talk to and I just wish you both well and your families and hopefully everybody and anybody just to stay safe, stay out of harm's way and somehow we're going to get out from under all of this and God, it's going to be a brave new world. Thanks, Roger. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on. Stay safe and stay healthy. You too. And maybe we'll do this again sometime when you have another couple of days to waste. Sounds good. Sounds great to me. Thanks. Shut up and sit down. Bye.