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The Pinball Show Ep 182: The Star Wars: Fall Of The Empire Episode

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·2h 1m·held·Sep 23, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Star Wars: Fall of the Empire detailed breakdown—mechanics, art, production, and Stern's market positioning.

Summary

The The The Pinball Show hosts Dennis Creasel and Zach Manning discuss Stern Pinball new Star Wars: Fall of the Empire machine, the third 2025 Cornerstone release designed by John Borg with lead programming by Raymond Davidson. The episode covers production timelines (Pro/Premium models arriving October, LEs already in production), art packages across three tiers, gameplay mechanics, and Stern's business position including Insider Connected uptake and pricing strategy over three years with no increases.

Key Claims

  • Star Wars: Fall of the Empire Limited Edition units are capped at 770 units with no price increase from previous games

    high confidence · Zach Manning stated during product discussion that the LE is 'limited to 770 units' and 'No price increase'

  • Stern Pinball has not raised prices in three years, with the last significant price change occurring three years ago when Insider Connected was introduced

    high confidence · Dennis Creasel: 'their last price change was three years ago. And it was significant when they forced in Insider Connected'

  • Insider Connected gameplay is up 28% year over year according to Stern dealer seminar presentation

    high confidence · Zach Manning: 'He indicated that Insider Connected gameplay is up 28% year over year. That's a good uptake.'

  • Star Wars machines will not be available for European release at launch due to Lucasfilm/Disney International licensing constraints

    high confidence · Zach Manning: 'not all the Lucasfilm Disney International licensing teams, they're not there yet on pinball being large enough to fit that portfolio'

  • Raymond Davidson role as lead programmer on Star Wars may be his first full lead game title

    medium confidence · Dennis Creasel: 'I think Ray Day, is this his first full lead game? I'm not sure that's true. Metallica Remastered, I feel like, isn't a full lead.'

  • Star Wars: Fall of the Empire production timeline has Pro and Premium models arriving in October, with some potentially trickling in late September

    high confidence · Zach Manning: 'In October, Star Wars, Fall of the Empire, Pro, and Premiums. We may see some start trickling out in September, end of September, but I think the majority of it's going to be October.'

  • The game features a custom motorized AT-AT walker that is stationary on Pro models but motorized on Premium and LE versions

    high confidence · Zach Manning: 'You have a custom sculpted motorized AT-AT walker, which is stationary on the pro model. But on the premium LE, it does. once you loop around with that spiral loop wire form.'

Notable Quotes

  • “Stern Pinball, the biggest pinball company in the world. Give them credit. Three years, no price increase.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ mid-discussion — Commentary on Stern's pricing stability despite inflationary pressures and R&D investment in new Spike 3 system

  • “I say give them credit... You're right there with everyone else. What an incredible skill.”

    Zach Manning @ pricing discussion — Sarcastic pushback on crediting Stern for no price increases, noting industry-wide trend

  • “The LE is easily by far the best art package. It just is.”

    Zach Manning @ art packages discussion — Clear preference statement on Limited Edition art aesthetic (Hoth/Battle scene)

  • “We finally get a girthy Vuck shot. This is a Borg trope back in his earlier years. But gone are most Vuck shots anymore.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ mechanics discussion — Commentary on designer John Borg's signature shot design element and its rarity in modern games

  • “I bet it killed him not to put 180. I bet he was like, I could have a fifth ramp.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ramp discussion — Speculation on Borg's design restraint in avoiding his typical 180-degree ramp signature

  • “It's not dripping with green. Yeah, and it's not like comic illustrations where you see heavy outlining. It looks like it's got texture.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ art analysis — Detailed aesthetic analysis distinguishing the illustrative painting-like quality of LE art from comic-style approaches

  • “Star Wars in the Star Wars. I am amazed.”

    Zach Manning @ theme integration discussion — Emphasis on strong thematic integration of Star Wars IP elements into gameplay objectives

  • “That's a Borg thing... That's a Borg thing. I thought that was a Lawler thing. And a Lawler thing, too.”

    Dennis Creasel and Zach Manning — Discussion of competing designer tropes regarding asymmetrical inlane design

Entities

Stern Pinballcompany[name withheld pending review]personZach ManningpersonJohn BorgpersonRaymond DavidsonpersonJeremy PackerpersonKeith Elwinperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Star Wars: Fall of the Empire officially launched as Stern Pinball's third 2025 Cornerstone title with Pro/Premium/LE variants; LE capped at 770 units with no price increase

    high · Zach Manning confirmed production timelines: 'In October, Star Wars, Fall of the Empire, Pro, and Premiums. We may see some start trickling out in September' with LE units already on production line

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Star Wars production schedule: LEs already in factory, trickling shipments expected late September, majority October; Pro/Premium production order unclear (Pro or Premium first)

    high · Zach Manning: 'The limited edition versions, the limited edition is limited to 770 units... They're on the line And I anticipate a good chance That we'll see some leave the factory This week'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Spike 3 system makes its debut in Star Wars: Fall of the Empire; uses off-the-shelf components to control costs despite R&D investment

    high · Dennis Creasel: 'Spike 3 used a lot of off-the-shelf stuff, which probably helped them control the pricing here, which is good for us'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Pinball has maintained pricing for three years (last increase was significant and coincided with Insider Connected forced adoption); industry-wide trend of no price increases among major manufacturers

    high · Dennis Creasel: 'their last price change was three years ago. And it was significant when they forced in Insider Connected'; Zach Manning: 'practically nobody's raised their prices in three years. Everybody has.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Insider Connected gameplay metrics show 28% year-over-year increase; achievement features performing well; Stern positioning as ongoing growth driver

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.365

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:30
The Pinball Show, episode 182, where we talk Star Wars, Fall of the Empire. Dennis Creasel, myself, Zach Manning are your hosts, and you're in store for a very special program here as we talk about the highs and lows of the new Stern Pinball release, as well as other industry news, mostly within Stern, but we'll talk about where you get your other news at. Dennis, how are you? I'm good. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Excited. Excited to be here. Oh, are you really? As excited as I can get. I'm trying. We got a new release to talk about. There's always... I do love new releases. There's always excitement. I love the new toys. I know you do. It's like the fall leaves in the air for you. It's the fresh smell of Invisiglass.
1:22
The lovely smell of booty rate. Yeah, I think that's right. We're going to jump into it. I think from the stories of last week, yeah, I've been busy with this release and editing of another future release. That's right. I try not to send you any messages when there's a new release out for that week. I love your messages. I also try not to send you messages. Oh, good. You don't really try interacting. But I extra try. I'm like, Zach's probably getting messages like at 6.30 p.m. And the people are so impressed when they hear. I just read out someone who wrote in to Greg because they were having an issue. And Greg, like five minutes later on a Saturday, saved the day. And I think I read that message. It was on our not so private discord. And so that's your reputation. And I'm like, I don't want to get in the way of your work. And usually I try to tell Greg and Ken and Tim and everybody, like, weekends don't work. Put down the computer. But you know what? When you have an exceptional team, they just make things happen.
2:38

  • Stern is planning a Walking Dead remaster release for late October into November

    medium confidence · Zach Manning: 'Late October into November, we're going to see that remastered game. The rumor is The Walking Dead.'

    • @ inlane asymmetry discussion
    Pat Lawlor
    person
    Greg Boneperson
    Star Wars: Fall of the Empiregame
    Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Seth Davisperson
    Insider Connectedproduct
    The Walking Deadgame
    Metallica Remasteredgame
    Spike 3product
    Eclectic Gamersorganization
    Tonyperson
    Chris Bartlettperson
    Vincent Proceperson
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    The Pinball Showorganization

    high · Zach Manning: 'He indicated that Insider Connected gameplay is up 28% year over year. That's a good uptake. That's significant. He liked achievements.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Star Wars: Fall of the Empire unavailable for European release at launch; Lucasfilm/Disney International licensing teams not yet comfortable with pinball market size; Stern positioned this as eventual goal ('when, not if')

    high · Zach Manning: 'not all the Lucasfilm Disney International licensing teams, they're not there yet on pinball being large enough to fit that portfolio. But Stern will continue to make the case'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Star Wars features motorized AT-AT walker (stationary on Pro, motorized on Premium/LE with spiral loop integration) and custom motorized Death Star II with physical ball lock; emphasis on destructive theme integration

    high · Zach Manning: 'You have a custom sculpted motorized AT-AT walker, which is stationary on the pro model. But on the premium LE, it does. once you loop around with that spiral loop wire form. You go from the buck to that.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Three distinct art packages (Pro: Ewoks/Endor green, Premium: Cloud City duel, LE: Hoth battle) with different cabinet and backglass designs; LE positioned as premium aesthetic with illustration-style rather than comic-style artwork

    high · Dennis Creasel: 'It's not dripping with green. Yeah, and it's not like comic illustrations where you see heavy outlining. It looks like it's got texture'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Star Wars designed by John Borg features his characteristic elements: girthy Vuck shot (rare in modern games), asymmetrical inlanes (two left/one right), novel pop-bumper placement; notably absent 180-degree ramp typical of his earlier work

    high · Dennis Creasel: 'This is a Borg trope back in his earlier years. Yes. But gone are most Vuck shots anymore' and 'I bet it killed him not to put 180'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Raymond Davidson serves as lead programmer on Star Wars: Fall of the Empire; potentially his first full lead game title with significant rule complexity and story integration

    medium · Dennis Creasel: 'I think Ray Day, is this his first full lead game? I'm not sure that's true. Metallica Remastered, I feel like, isn't a full lead. Well, the stuff he came up with, though, was his whole creation'

  • ?

    product_concern: Production timing discussion suggests Pro models may have lower demand; hosts debate whether Pro or Premium will be produced first, with implication that Pro sales are weak

    medium · Zach Manning: 'I'm going to guess that they'll do premium first. Okay. Because nobody bought any pros.' Dennis Creasel: 'Maybe the other way around. I don't believe you.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Walking Dead remaster rumored for late October/November 2025 production run; positioned as part of holiday/Christmas demand wave alongside Metallica and Jurassic Park

    medium · Zach Manning: 'Late October into November, we're going to see that remastered game. The rumor is The Walking Dead'

    • Maybe Greg was drinking. I don't know. I didn't see a comment on that aspect. I don't know if we spoke. I almost posted it online that Greg, for those who don't know, his name is Greg Bone. He works at Flippin' Out Pinball. He also co-hosts Straight Down the Middle. video series on YouTube about pinball. But we have like a, not a Google team thing going on or like the, it's very, I don't know, what is it? It's not micromanaging. So what's the opposite of micromanaging?
    3:10
    Macromanaging? Like, I instill an environment of people know what their roles are within the company and they just get shit done. I don't care how. I don't care when. I don't care what out. I just don't care. Like, exceptional people are going to be exceptional. You don't have to micromanage them. Okay, so you allow them a lot of independence in terms of the decision-making. I would like to think so. For their tactical responses. I'd like to think so. So, and Greg fully embraces this because he's a believer of it, too. And he sent, or I think his wife sent a picture months back of him in his pool, his above-ground pool, of course, with his arms over onto the deck. And it's like a built-in deck and stuff. And he's got a laptop. So he is in the pool as he is working with flipping out and may or may not have just a couple of beers to the next. But that's unbelievable. I think she sent me a picture of him on the shitter with the laptop on his lap as he's taken a shite.
    4:19
    That's Greg Bone for you. That's Greg Bone. I did – I see a message between last episode and this one that – somebody said I have a tell. Now that they – there's a video format to the pinball show, and for those of you not watching, you have to be watching. It's the pinball show on YouTube, and follow, like, and subscribe there too. Why? I know it's corny, and I know you hate hearing it, but people ask like us just because it does truly help. Like, it helps the exposure and the support of the show. So it's fucking free. Just click on the follow. Thank you for doing that. And sorry to get so testy here. I'm telling you guys. It's been a long couple of weeks here and a lot of editing. But somebody said I have a visual tell whenever I am talking about something I shouldn't be talking about, that I'm trying to make seem like I don't know, but I really do know, I touch my face.
    5:17
    Now, I've not noticed that. Okay. How do I touch it? I mean, maybe it's just, did they say that it was a specific type of touch or just? I didn't ask. A lot of people touch their face constantly, so it might be difficult to. Yeah. So be on the lookout, viewer. If I'm touching my face, that means I know something is true, but I'm trying to present it as me not knowing for sure. I don't know if it's like a calling for a fastball or whatever you're doing.
    5:54
    It's actually a video. You've got to do a video. He's going to follow the change-up. All right. Stern Pinball in the news big time. Let's talk about production updates first, though. The past couple of weeks, I've been creating and producing King Kong premiums. Another one of those. And then what we're going to be talking about this episode, Star Wars, Fall of the Empire. L.E.s. I call Star Wars the Star Wars. Foutle. Or what did you call it? Foutois? No.
    6:25
    Fout. Not Faint, but Fout. So they are already producing The limited edition versions They're on the line And I anticipate a good chance That we'll see some leave the factory This week Wow Now I've got that in my head Oh wait that's prequels No duel of the fates in the original trilogy September Strangers thing Is that people going to die?
    6:55
    Annie no Annie Not the children, then the women. Annie, you killed the women and the children. You like that? Yeah. Lisa thinks you're sick.
    7:08
    How does no one see that? September. Spoilers, by the way. That's right. September is also going to see some Stranger Things Pro. Why?
    7:20
    I think that's due. It's due for a run of them and some back orders. And then keep in mind, I think we're going to see a bump in Stranger Things sales in October-ish. Because that season five, is it season five? Whatever the last season of Stranger Things is going to start and come out. You may.
    7:42
    Pie may? You may. It's all Padme. I've never seen this show, so I don't know if you're naming a character or not. Is it Padme? Who's the? Padme, yeah. Yeah, okay.
    7:52
    Penny, you're breaking my heart. That's right. She's in the field. Are they? It's late. Or in October.
    8:00
    I'm scatterbrained. In October, Star Wars, Fall of the Empire, Pro, and Premiums. We may see some start trickling out in September, end of September, but I think the majority of it's going to be October. Now, what I do not know is whether they are going to run Pro before Premium or Premium before Pro. They've done it both ways. I don't know if it's a parts thing or a strategic thing. I don't know. But we'll see. Well, I'm going to guess that they'll do premium first. Okay. Because nobody bought any pros.
    8:37
    We'll talk about that. Maybe the other way around. I don't believe you. Late October into November, we're going to see that remastered game. The rumor is The Walking Dead. and then we've discussed November, December what all that is all the stuff that comes out that people want for Christmas, your Metallicas and your Jurassic's still the trendy little game right now and then January 2026 the Cornerstone we'll discuss and maybe in the exclusive, make some changes there we'll discuss that in the exclusive membership episode And then we know that, what, 2026, we're going to get a bunch of different titles as well. Can we jump into it? I'm itching. It's not a rash, but I'm itching for Star Wars Fall of the Empire. I have not, I will say this, I have not listened to Eclectic Gamers quite yet. Don't worry, nobody did. No? You said... It was a self-deprecating joke. You said your co-host, Tony, was pretty passionate about... He was disappointed. Yes. A passionate was more neutral, but we'll go with that. No, I mean, I guess if you do choose to go and listen, you will hear his passionate disappointment.
    9:58
    We'll discuss later on what we like and what we don't. Star Wars Fall of the Empire is released by Stern Pinball, the third cornerstone of 2025. Game designer John Borg. You see a video people can see two of the four play fields on my wall right here. Borg-y games. Oh, I couldn't really make them out because of how dark it is back there. Yeah, we got Willy Wonka. So, Pat Lawler. We got Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is Borgi. Guardians of the Galaxy, Borgi. And Toy Story 4. God, Ben. We got, so, two Lawlers and two Borgis. Okay. Lead programmer, Raymond Davidson.
    10:40
    Non-music fan ratings. Yeah. This is a glorious day for him. Some in the industry call him a young Padawan storyteller. Yeah. Let's see if he can weave all of the intricate stories of this iconic franchise. I think Ray Day, is this his first full lead game? I'm not sure that's true. Metallica Remastered, I feel like, isn't a full lead. Well, the stuff he came up with, though, was his whole creation. So obviously there was some bones there, but he added new stuff. I guess it's relative. I suppose most of the bulk of it is still lined up. Yeah, but the entire depth of a full game, this may be his first. Okay. Well, congratulations if it is. Congrats, Ray. It's not congratulations if it's not. Don't flip it up. Artists. Strange. A collaboration of various Stern artists. what didn't they just do this on something they just did this on King Kong same shit yes I can remember the game but I know they had done a like but it's not like we've seen other instances where Stern has had like different people like doing the play field the trans light and I think even the cabinet art sometimes has been three people involved in various ways so this is a cornucopia as we're going into the fall season of Stern artists including Vincent Prost.
    12:12
    The Vincent Price of art. He did the Dungeons and Dragons, Tyrant's Eye. I liked that. Yeah. So he was renowned for D&D stuff. He came aboard doing that, and now he was working on some of this. So it's all hand-drawn artwork. Music by John Williams, that legendary score. Other music is Jerry Thompson, I believe. Voice talent by Chris Bartlett, who plays C-3PO.
    12:46
    In some stuff. Yeah. In this, he's playing C-3PO. And he's done C-3PO in some stuff, but he's not the original trilogy C-3PO. That guy's probably dead, isn't he? No, he's not. Is he? Does he still do comics? Not that my understanding is he's not. I don't know if he still does C-3PO. Well, the voice of C-3PO. I don't think it was the same guy. I don't know. Actually, let me hedge on that. I don't know if he was the guy who played it in the suit. I assume to know, just like James Earl Jones is the voice of Vader, not the man in the suit.
    13:18
    Yes. I like it that they're doing C-3PO doing the call-outs. I think that's great. Three Cornerstone model. Shoot the desktop.
    13:28
    Is it great? Shoot the desktop. The limited edition versions, the limited edition is limited to 770 units. No price increase. Why didn't they do 1,977 units in honor of the actual date of Star Wars? Maybe once they start selling to Europe, they will. I don't know. That's fair.
    13:49
    Could you imagine 1,700 L.A.s? Holy cow. You'd be stuck with them for five years. It's called Jersey Jack Pinball. Dave Potter.
    14:00
    Oh, no. You're not getting me this. Jack, don't blame me. Set it right up for me. It wasn't part of the plan. Well, how many Harry Potters do you think they've sold to CEs? I mean, they've sold more CEs than the other models. Sure. They've probably sold over 2,000 CEs. It wouldn't surprise me. I would bet. It was the one with the nice art package. Well, dragon aside.
    14:31
    No price increase. No, nor should there be. To note, their last price change was three years ago. And it was significant when they forced in Insider Connected. And there was a lot of discussion at the time that we simple folk, even though we're simple folk, Zach, those of us, the non-dealer simple folk, We could tell there was padding placed in that because of how much they were selling the Insider Connected kits for versus how much they raised the price on the games. So we knew they were increasing profit margin at that point. COVID times, yeah. They're forced to eat into that at the stage, much like your aforementioned Jersey Jack pinball, which had no choice but to hold the pricing. What about the R&D, though, that's required for all of these? We'll talk about the Spike 3 system that's making its debut here. What about the R&D? Is that not expensive? If it was a custom board set, there would be more R&D. I'm not saying they should use a custom board set either. I'm saying it feels more like Spike 3 used a lot of off-the-shelf stuff, which probably helped them control the pricing here, which is good for us. It still gave them a lot more oomph, as we'll get into. I'm still quasi-impressed. I mean, you've got the substantial investments going into that new procurement of the Spike 3 stuff. You've got tariff costs, while not as bad as feared, still up year to date. And you've got continued inflating costs of wood, metal, workers, et cetera.
    16:02
    I say, you know what? I say give them credit. Three years, no price increase, the biggest pinball company in the world. Give them credit.
    16:11
    Sorry, I've been watching a lot of JFK stuff lately for whatever reason. Well, how many pinball companies have raised their prices in the last three years? I'd have to go back Because JJP didn't either It's a majority Sure Yeah Chicago Hard to quantify I mean The price of a medieval madness Is more expensive than the price of A cactus canyon But that's because the price of medieval madness Is priced higher No I would say no No price increase there. Okay. So maybe it isn't that special.
    16:53
    That's all I'm saying. Like, practically nobody's raised their prices in three years. Everybody has. So, wow. Good job, Stern. You're right there with everyone else. What an incredible skill. I'm trying to think. Besides CGC, who else has it? Three years? I guess JJP. Haggis tried to raise their prices. Oh, time. Really? Set up. And we see how that worked. Their goal at Starin Pinball is to continue growing pinball, growing the market, the industry. They said, now this is coming from the dealer seminar that we had with Seth Davis prior to the launch of Star Wars. He indicated that Insider Connected gameplay is up 28% year over year.
    17:36
    That's a good uptake. That's significant. He liked achievements. Pinball is still small. There was discussion that even, remember the whole last episode we talked about, viewer, that Europe was not getting any of these games, these Star Wars games. Very unusual. Yeah, it's a licensing kind of thing. So, and he kind of said, they alluded to that and said, not all the Lucasfilm Disney International licensing teams, they're not there yet. on pinball being large enough to fit that portfolio. But Stern will continue to make the case and almost presenting it as if it is a goal as to when, not if, they can get some Star Wars approved for Europe sales. But not ready for this launch, so we'll have to wait and see.
    18:32
    Let's talk about the product launch itself, Dennis. There was a teaser that came out. Yes, it came out very early. Up and hard for whatever reason. Well, are they not always?
    18:44
    Yes. Everybody's pissed off. Then, on the day of, what was it? It was a Friday. Lunch on a Friday. Yes. Because my co-host, Tony, with Eclectic Gamers, messaged me on Friday with his rage. And I totally forgot that it was dropping on Friday. I was busy working. And I get this message saying that this is the worst theme ever. And I'm like, what's going on? Yeah. You're like, Star Wars is so- It's Star Wars. I mean, we knew it was Star Wars. What are you talking about?
    19:15
    The sizzle reel came out, or the trailer photos, the extended product video came out. Later that day, I believe they even did a live gameplay video, like a pre-recorded- They did. I caught part of it, yeah. So then it's smart. I love that after years of speaking of it, CERN's now doing that. And not that we're taking credit for it, but we have been preaching- Maybe take a little bit. We've been preaching, do a pre-recorded video. stop doing streams. They've now listened to that. We said, just put one game on there. Don't put three hours worth of game. No, you're giving away too much. They started doing it. So it's just one game. So nicely done, Stern Pinball. And I like that they had a gameplay video at launch, so it gives people some insight as to how it shoots. I liked it too. And then prior to that, prior to the launch even, they had dealer open house and a media open house that fell on the Tuesday before and the Wednesday, respectively. So I didn't go to either of those. So I was kind of in the dark until launch day. So you got a nice surprise. It was a nice surprise. The objectives, the story of this game, what is the gamer doing, the player? They're trying to get the high score. It's pinball, Zach. It's about high scores. Is it? Not to me. I would argue it's not about the high scores Do you celebrate high scores More than you do get into a wizard mode I guess it depends if you're a moment maker Or a point cheeser The objective There's some iconic stuff that happens In the trilogy of Star Wars And that's what they are That's what the player is doing here Such as Hoth Take down the AT-AT With your snow speeder tow cable Some people will get mad if you don't call it an AT-AT. Yeah, well, I don't know. So you also call it AT-AT. I wonder if it's like a Midwestern thing, because I don't know anyone who calls them AT-ATs. I don't either. That's the first, yeah.
    21:18
    So I love, we'll talk about the integration of physically taking that AT-AT down. You're battling an Endor, destroying the Death Star II by lowering the shields to dismantle the battle stations during Death Star Multifold. Why? To save the galaxy? Yeah. Exactly. That makes sense. It's good to save the galaxy. We go back to Tatooine, where we survived the Starlack Pit and complete various Jabba the Hutt events. All so iconic. And who can forget escaping from Cloud City using the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive by hitting the center jump ramp to... jump to hyperspace. There's Parsecs and everything, right?
    22:01
    And then you're just going to use the fours Okay, so those check out The objectives are very much Star Wars That's what you want to see in here There is Star Wars in the Star Wars I am amazed Alright, so that's the theme integrations Very good Artwork Three completely different back glass and cabinet art packages across the models. And as we continue our discussion here on this podcast and videocast, I implore you to go to Stern's website or go to Flippin' Out Pinball website. Just pull up some pictures of the game and follow along. If you're driving, I mean, drive at your knees. Don't be a wuss. No, I'm joking. I'm joking, people. That thing that I can say needs to be taken as proper vehicular advice.
    22:51
    Pull over. This is a liability disclaimer. Pull over. Put it in park. It's worth it. But, yeah, follow along visually.
    22:59
    I do like, before we jump into the difference between the Pro Premium LE art packages, I do love the homage to the Kenner toy packaging on the back last. Did you catch that? No, it's been so long since I looked at the Kenner packaging. It's a nice touch with the double line border kind of. I mean.
    23:19
    Nicely done, Jeremy Packer. Good job. It probably secured him one extra sale. Nicely done. It just taps into that nostalgia. I understand your point. Okay, we've got Pro, Premium, and Ellie. As we always do, we'll briefly discuss these, and then you'll take your pick. Then it's what you like the best. The Pro focuses on Return of the Jedi. It's Ewoks on speed bikes. Can you beat that? But the overall – And with two other art packages. Oh, no. I totally – go ahead. Continue. The composition on this I do enjoy because Star Wars, we're so used to blues and blacks and spaces and reds. This, you get more of the greens of what, Endor?
    24:07
    Yes, Endor. So you get more green. So I like that they did that. Premium, you get that duel on Cloud City. The cabinet is that classic duel between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. The back glass is that hero shot, character montage. And then you get, you even get to, if you look closely, I think it's Lando and the Boba Fett scene on the platform thing. It's on the background on Cloud City. And then the LE is all about that Battle of Hoth, baby. The light blues and the snow. You get an air speeder on one side of the cabinet. I think it's an air speeder. You get the Luke on the Tauntaun on one side or the other side of the cabinet. So you get different cabinet sides on the LE. And then that back glass.
    24:47
    Chef's kiss. That battle scene. With the ah, ah. You get that? You get that there. The AT-AT. Okay. Now, what were you wanting to talk about? You're going to make fun of these poor Ewoks? No, I was going to say I do like that Stern has continued. But I feel like they really tried to focus in more on and make sure that the pro always has the worst start package. Oh.
    25:12
    Why don't you like? It's just not as good as the other two. What's your favorite back? The L.E. easily is by far the best art package. It just is. Usually people like the characters, though. It was always the coolest planet, literally and figuratively. And it's got the snow monster thing. I don't remember the name of that snow monster thing. The Yeti, yeah. Yeah, the Yeti. It's got a probe droid. Who doesn't like the probe droid?
    25:41
    It's got a probe droid. You got Vader on the side of the back box where he's walking through the ice cave. You don't fuck somebody up. And the battle scene is more cohesive. It doesn't feel like it's a straight-up movie poster that they just repurposed for a translator. It very much looks like the illustrative art really shines, almost like a painting on the side with the tauntaun. It's not dripping with green. Yeah, and it's not like comic illustrations where you see heavy outlining. It looks like it's got texture. I like the premium, too. Like, you got the bounty hunters on the side of the cab, you know, Bubba Fett and the lizard dude. I had the lizard dude twice. Why does that lizard dude show up everywhere? Because I can't remember his name right now. He's even in one of the video games, and he's really fun to play. He's even, like, on the Mando art. Like, damn. Yeah, he's fun. He's fun. What about, it's a trap. What about that guy? Why can't he be everywhere? The fish face. Oh.
    26:46
    Where's he at? Why not? I don't know. Yeah. Emperor or no. It's Admiral Ackbar. Amon Calamari. That's what surprised us. That's the species is Amon Calamari. I tend to agree with you that Ellie Backlash is beautiful. It's so stunning. I really like it. And then I love the Luke on his wonton. I always think of wonton. I don't know why. He's like riding a little noodle or a pouched pastry. A wonton. A tauntaun. Tauntaun. Lucas. I had one of those, too. I had the toy where, and it had the thing so you could put the figurines in its tummy. I wish that was the cabinet art of him hot-pocketing it. Hot-pocketing.
    27:39
    That's what I wanted to see. It really felt like that. If all the art were the toys, that would have been interesting. Oh, the balls pop into the Tauntaun's stomach. Yeah. His carcass. That would be great. It would just kind of boop them out.
    27:57
    I thought these things smelled bad on the outside. What about the cabinet art? What's your favorite cabinet art? It's not the Ewoks, I guess. Poor fur bears. No, the Ewoks are the most disliked thing from the original trilogy. I think it's bullshit. The Ellie art package all around is the best art package. Just this.
    28:19
    Man, it's, for me, that premium. Just this. I love that duel. I really do. The potato-faced Luke? No. What?
    28:30
    It's not potato-faced. Well, I mean, I didn't zoom in, but just let me have my moments. I'm going to give, I'm going to hedge it to the LE because there's two different scenes.
    28:44
    I'll give it to the LE, barely. But I do like the premium. Yeah, I like the premium, too. But I think the LE is better. I just, I do. Yeah. Let's talk about the toys and mechs features of this game. It's got two flippers, so it's Fanny Fan. Somebody, I wasn't arguing, but. Two flippers don't mandate it be a fan. No. But this isn't a fan. This absolutely is. Two flippers, six pinballs are used, four ramps technically, I think. Technically. Oh, you love technicalities. Return of the Vuck. We finally get a girthy Vuck shot. This is a Borg trope back in his earlier years. Yes. But gone are most Vuck shots anymore. You don't see them. You don't see many Vuck shots. Also, no 180 ramp.
    29:35
    Oh, that's true. So, good call there. Nice job, Borg. No 180. I bet it killed him not to put 180. I bet he was like, I could have a fifth ramp. That's right. I'll make this orb of the ramp.
    29:50
    And then he's got some interesting locations for the pop bumpers. There are still two pop bumpers, RGB lit pop bumpers, so you get a lot of thematic lighting there. But they're in novel locations, I would say. down bottom half. Yeah, they're kind of like where I think we've started to see a lot of designs do where one pop-up, like it reminds me a bit of like Godzilla's pop-bumper, or we thought about like the Rick and Morty pop-bumper, but he's got them on both sides. X-Men. There actually a symmetry to it The uncanny X We see a lot of lower level one pop is two though This is two I like that they symmetrical So to me it looks good down there Because I like symmetry on the bottom third personally I like the looks of it.
    30:38
    Well, then it must kill you that he's got two in lanes on the left and one on the right. That's a Borg thing. Yeah, it killed you. That's a Borg thing. I thought that was a Lawler thing. And a Lawler thing, too. You get Borg'd. Do you think he took it from Lawler and Lawler's upset? We'd have to trace it back to see when it started for each. I know Lawler publicly has claimed that he feels that's his design trip. I haven't heard him call out any other designer, just that he's like, I actively do this. I personally do not, unless it's a geometry reason, I don't see the reason for two in-lanes ever. Like, who gives a shit?
    31:15
    Make it a wide in-lane. I don't get it. There's nothing quite as satisfying as this giant freaking dot worth size.
    31:26
    It's just like the ball just thunks on through. I don't. I like how it's just thought like that. It'll be as fondly remembered as Elwynn's banana ramp on Avengers. Oh, that poor banana ramp is so functional, though. Yes, but it's ugly.
    31:43
    It's ugly. It's not visually appealing. So I wish they'd actually put a sticker on it to make it look like a banana. Maybe Chiquita would have sponsored it or something. They should put that in Kong. That would make sense. But I think the feedback from the banana ramp was such that he was like, I ain't revisiting that ever.
    32:01
    I liked it. I wonder if they do an inverse, an hourglass instead of an hourglass ramp. I started thinking about the fruit that's the inverse of a banana. I'm so sorry. What's like the least opposite of a banana looking thing? I don't know. Tomato? I don't know. We'll go tomato. That's fine. Tomato ramp. So we do have some interesting use of pop bumpers. Thank you, though, because nobody wants just a cluster of pops anymore. You get a custom sculpted Death Star II motorized target with motorized target and physical ball lock. I'm going to give some credit here Dennis to the Death Star 2 is that it's official name I guess what I do like about this I like physical ball locks thank you I do like that the steel ramp is like it is illuminated in a very nice way like the die cut almost inserts within the ramp I really like that but more than anything I like seeing the destroyed version of that Death Star instead of just a ball. It's like it's damaged, and it shows the different layers of damage. Like I think it hits the lighting good. I do like that quite a bit. So I'll give them credit for that sculpt. I really like it. You have a custom sculpted motorized AT-AT walker, which is stationary on the pro model. But on the premium LE, it does. once you loop around with that spiral loop wire form. You go from the buck to that. And you loop around just like you are doing that tow cable around the legs of the AT-AT, and then it falls. Oh, man, I do like that. You get the salacious bee crumb drop target.
    33:52
    Okay. I guess. Because everyone was like, you know what? I sure wish they'd do more Scolari Brothers. That's all anyone thinks about is Scolari Brothers. I wonder how much air time that ball is going to get.
    34:08
    Is the Scolari Brothers drop targets the only thing in the Ghostbusters Stern game that comes from Ghostbusters 2?
    34:17
    No. I think the River of Ooze or Slime. Okay, you're right. That is technically. Dang. I wanted Carpathian or whatever his name was. It's the only physical thing, though, from the second. Which is sad, too, because I'm a huge fan of Ghostbusters 2. No, this is ruining my setup. I like that the Scolari drop targets are the worst thing about the Ghostbusters pinball machine, being from the worst Ghostbusters movie that was ever made. Oh, wow.
    34:47
    That's the worst? I mean, it's bad. It's better than a lot of other series' best, but it's still... It's the best Ghostbusters. Compared to the original Ghostbusters, it's pretty bad. Now, I haven't seen the new one with Paul Rudd. What? That one's actually good. Frozen Empire was... The women as Ghostbusters. And I liked that movie. It's not the third act. No, I didn't like the third act, but I liked the first two acts in that movie. I thought it was very funny. You get a star-like pit spinning ramp. I guess that... The ramp doesn't spin. It's a... The ball spins. It's Mustang. Yeah, it's like a funnel. It's like... Yeah. Funnel. That's the best way to put it. Yes, yeah. Creature is a good analogy.
    35:31
    And I think it's got an opto in there. Motorized hyperspace lift ramp, which is stationary on the pro model. So it's a center ramp. Think, what am I thinking? Jokers.
    35:45
    Oh, okay. Same location. Wait, none of our listeners know Jokers because they're all too young. It's the same spot as the Borg center ramp shots in Aerosmith and Kiss. Yeah, but they weren't motorized ramps on those.
    36:01
    Think Rush, but shifted over to the left. Oh, the mirror image. How about that? Yeah. Okay, so we've got that. What else? Oh, the custom-sculpted illuminated Millennium Falcon ship. That's on all models. Okay. Custom-sculpted TIE fighter not on a spring. This is absent from the promo. Do you think it should have been on a spring? For this premium LE, I would have liked to have seen it on a spring. just as an homage to the first one. I think all of these other figurines on springs would have made them more fun, but I think they just took so much flack for the cheapness of the spring idea that they refused to do it. But I honestly think that a more bobblehead look would have really worked with some of these choices. Maybe we can market that. Any mod makers out there want to take a cut? It's the pinball show. I'm sure they're all 3D printing springs right now. I hope that they do. And sell them under the pinball show moniker. We'll do a cut and we'll market it. I want everything springing around on this game.
    37:04
    That was my spring boing. It was actually pretty good. Beep boop, beep boop. All right. What else do we got?
    37:13
    Oh, the custom sculpted TIE fighter figure. We got that. That's absent from the pro. Use the force. Jedi save. Outland magnetic ball saver. Also absent from the pro model. Now, this is, in my opinion, the best feature on this game. I agree. It looks like the most, not innovative. Actually, I would argue innovative after seeing the gameplay video. It brings something new to pinball, the use of it. And it's magnet use where you're controlling ball flow And theme integration is 100% using the force And making stuff move without physically touching it That's what magnets do It's almost, I was cracking it while I'm jumping ahead But I feel so strongly about this Jedi Force outlaying magnet It's almost as if they figured out the use of it during that gameplay video, if viewers, if you go back and watch the official Stern release video, the gameplay video, the utilization of that magnet was probably going to be GoldenEye-esque. And now every time I hear somebody say, it's like GoldenEye, I want to correct them and say, no, it's not like GoldenEye. I think that's what they intended it to be. That's what Borg may have intended it to be, or Ray Day coding it, where it catches the ball below the flippers and flips it gracefully back up into play through the center drain. However, when they were playing on the gameplay, they were utilizing it in so many different ways to save the ball that even they were, it seemed like they were surprised. Even I think I remember Ray had been like, oh, wow, like I've never seen it used like that. So it would come in hot from the rider left out lane, and I could be wrong, Dennis and viewer, but it seems like this isn't a – it's used – the action button is what puts this into use. But it does not seem like an all-or-nothing, full-stop magnet pull. Like it does in some cases, I guess if you hold it down. I don't know what situation it may be in. But typically, like the GoldenEye, it would pulsate for long enough where it would get the ball under control, and then it would throw it up. Think GoldenEye or think Shadow or something like that. However, this feels more like an interval use type of magnet where you can pulse it like, not like Theater of Magic. I'm trying to think. Rick and Morty. The magnet on Rick and Morty has a meter, and when you tap it, it pulses that magnet. But if you hold it, it will pulse it longer. So there's some strategy in how long. So what you see Mike Vinicore and others, when it was draining, wherever it drained, if you have some juice in that magnet, you tap it, and it flings it, and it was flinging it to the ride-out lane. Yeah. Or it was the shooter lane. The shooter lane, sorry. Yes. It was flinging it to the shooter lane. Now, they advertised it as such.
    40:30
    But if you look back, the advertisement is almost part of the apron. Maybe I'm just wrong and I haven't seen this in person, but follow me here, viewer.
    40:41
    Remember on Foo Fighters, the Jack Danger dead post that come up and knocks the ball back into play on the premium LE? There's a dead post. when activated, it would come up, the ball would knock you, you'd have to hold the flipper up, and it would bump back to the right flipper in play. So if you look closely, you'll see not a post, but it's like a lip that has been added to the apron drain. And I think whenever activated or something, it will just naturally, physics-wise, maybe there is a magnet pulsation, but that's what guides it to the shooter lane. However, they were using this magnet without that lip is what I'm saying So in a sense, it was another way to get that ball back into play And that's what it kind of The gameplay was pretty safe It was a nice showing But that's what kind of turned it into something It took over the entire video It won over What's the phrase? stole the show. It stole the show. So that's why I've talked for five minutes now on the Outline magnetic ball saver.
    42:02
    I'm sure there's nothing else to add there, Dennis. I'm sorry. The illuminated custom sculpt Jabba the Hutt, which is also absent from the Pro. You've got a custom sculpted Darth Vader helmet, which is absent from the Pro. To me, it looks like it just sits over a Maybe a flasher. Same on the right side, which is a custom-sculpted Stormtrooper helmet, which is absent from the pro model.
    42:29
    We not only get off-spinner, we get two spinners, and they're opto-spinners. There's nothing more satisfying than an orbit opto-spinner.
    42:45
    Five stand-up force targets. Who gives a shit? one stormtrooper stand-up target, even bigger who gives a shit. But I very much give a shit about the last feature, which I don't think is being discussed enough. Over 1,000 clips from the films.
    43:04
    Disney, Lucasfilms, Star Wars, over 1,000 clips from the films. We glaze over this too much. Why? Because, like, you know how hard it is. the clips. Manufacturers have a tough time getting any clips from any licensed pinball machine. The last Star Wars had clips?
    43:28
    I think they're going to be much greater utilized here and much more of them. The reason I'm big on this is because when many collectors buy Star Wars for their homes, they're buying it because it's Star Wars. And they want Star Wars. It's my biggest soapbox thing. Stern has never not put clips in ever since there's been an LCD screen. There's always been Star Wars. Mando had clips. Star Wars was Star Wars. One have clips. Of course this one has clips. Getting clips is apparently quite easy when it comes to Star Wars. I don't care. You can't point to an example where it wasn't true. I don't care. As I'm not saying it's additive here. I'm saying that it is great no matter how many times you show it. That's like saying my last girlfriend had boobs. What? Okay, but boobs are still good.
    44:25
    They're still point and pointed out. What? They're absolutely point and pointed out. No one in their right mind assumed that this game was going to come out and there not be clips. I think if they came out with a lot of IP that has Star Wars, they have lunchbox art. and that's all you're going to get because it is very expensive. I don't care if it's easy to get or not. I guarantee they're paying more for a thousand clips than they are zero clips. Guaranteed. You don't know that. Oh, more than zero, but you don't know that they're paying more for a thousand versus 500 clips. I don't know that. So the number is irrelevant.
    45:01
    Numbers don't lie. Let's quit talking about the clips because it's a silly thing to talk about. It's silly. That's how you make moments, Brady. I'm not giving a Star Wars clips ever. Ever.
    45:12
    I think this is a pointless item to highlight. In this hobby, if you had gotten zero clips, what would happen? Would people be like, you know, it's a pointless thing. They didn't get any clips. That's pointless. We won't. Yeah, but you're emphasizing the number of clips and stuff. And we've seen them do Star Wars before. So this is not impressive. It was expected. If somebody is going to cry if it's not there, then I'm going to give it equal credit for being there. We've already spent almost as much time talking about this as we did the fourth ball save. At least the clips are in all the versions. Or are you going to tell me that these aren't in the pro either?
    45:46
    Speaking of, let's segue into the LE features, Dennis' favorite. Expression cabinet lighting system. The expression speaker lighting system with X-Wing and TIE Fighter inserts and upgraded sound from Spike 3.
    46:02
    I don't even think we're in stereo. Mirrored back glass, blue powder-coated trim package. Now, they called it the AT-AT blue powder-coated trim package, but that angered me because the AT-AT is not blue. It's recycling. It has nothing to do with any of it, so I'm going to leave it out. But then I mentioned it. LE exclusive cabinet art package, shaker motor, anti-reflective glass, and a bunch of signed shit that no one cares about. Now, the pro model. Maybe we should talk about the signage, since you apparently like to highlight things that are in all of everything. I did like the Jaws 50th decal on the train plate. I did like that. So did they. They made it a feature on the train plate.
    46:46
    Stern is fun. The Pro model, here's some of the things that does differ from the Premium LE. So a lot of people are like, well, okay, so brass tacks. What am I missing with the Pro here? Everything. Dang.
    47:00
    Is this the Costco version? Well, you don't get the figures. So, like the Jabba the Hutt? You don't get the non-moving plastics that aren't even on springs. Tie Fighter? Don't get it. Darth Vader helmet? Don't get it. Storm Trooper? Don't get it. Not the droid you're looking for. But you do get the AT-AT Walker. It just doesn't move.
    47:23
    Stationary. You get the hyperspace lift ramp without lift feature. It's just a ramp. It's a regular ramp.
    47:35
    It's just a ramp. It's still a rowdy jump ramp. Rowdy jump ramp. You don't have to wait for it to lift. But you don't get that. And for me, the two biggest things, you do not get use the Force Jedi save magnetic ball saver. That's a game changer there, literally. And you do not, another big one for me personally, as somebody that wants Galaxy under glass, trademark,
    48:03
    this is not, the Pro model is not compatible, Dennis and viewer, with the expression cabinet lighting system. They probably recognize that Pro buyers don't buy that. On the LE, you get the standard. On the premium, it's going to be an optional accessory. On the Pro, they're going back to the food well. The Foo Fighters well, and they said, no expression for you. I will say.
    48:28
    Please do. I'm getting a little annoyed at the inconsistency on how they're handling the expression lighting system. I can see that argument. Just pick a lane and stick with it. And if this is the lane, that's fine. That's fine. Like, I understand the business argument that it's not worth it on the pro, but pick something. it feels like they're doing like a market research survey after every game and they change their mind every single time and i i don't know maybe they leave that up to the designer maybe that that's a fair point i didn't think about that i don't know if do you think the bomb is that much more like are you saving i think it's more of a sales strategy I could be wrong I don't care but for what you're saying your argument is like stick in the same lane, build the same cabinet my argument is just don't change it between like if the pro is not going to allow it just don't ever allow it and if it like this off again on again it just gets murky because then I just worry that someone might be like oh wait I'm allowed to put expression lane in pros And it's like, well, no, it depends on the pro. And then it just confuses the casual. You would think you could make more money, though, selling those kits. I don't think they sell them to pro buyers very much.
    49:51
    That's why I think maybe there's a business case not to do it. And maybe there's a – you may be right. It may be more of a sales strategy. You know, the other interesting thing is now whenever they come out with accessories, just like Foo Fighters, they have to come out with their own art blades for the pro. from a sales perspective. Like, I hate that. Because I've got Foo Fighter Pro Art Blades. You're sitting and it's like, are they...
    50:18
    That's kind of a pain. Don't do Art Blades for the Pro. Kind of a pain. Now, I wonder if the art's going to be the same on expression lighting between the Premium and LE. Yeah, I bet it will be. Yes. The LE comes standard with its own art package on the expression lighting. And then the accessory kit will have different artwork because it's assumed it's going to be put on a premium.
    50:42
    That's interesting. Do you think you're missing a lot of stuff from the pro? Did I not hint at my thoughts on that throughout this? Well, what's odd, though, when they presented this to us, I was in full transparency. I make more money on a premium than I do a pro. Putting that out there. So whenever I see pros that aren't losing much over a premium, It always financially forays me. I'm like, I don't know. I want people to want the premium. I understand that. But when they presented it, I thought we were in trouble here and that pros were going to be, because what are you? I mean, you're missing some of the figures that you'll hear in a minute from me. I just, they don't do much for me. You're missing hyperspace lift ramp that you'll hear from me in a minute. But the ticker is that, and the AT-AT Walker, some would argue, it's not really that significant. It just falls down. Okay. So you're missing a magnet, and you're missing the ability to spend more money to put expression lighting in yours. That's all you're really losing.
    51:54
    So I can see the argument for the pros good enough here. You still get, I mean, you still get a physical ball lock. You're still getting the Millennium Falcon. You're still getting the Mustang creature spinny thing. So let's jump into the code. After all this, we'll discuss the layout and all that and what we think. Rules and code. There are 24 unique missions spread across eight iconic Star Wars characters. So it sounds like 24 modes divided by eight characters, which include Luke, Yoda, R2-D2-C-3PO duo, Lando, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia, and Obi-Wan Kenobi. So it sounds like there are three story missions for each character, probably. Well, that would be what math would say. Yes, math was correct. Four main multiball modes, which are Death Star, Battle of Hoth, Starlight Pit, and Lightspeed Escape. You get not one, not two, not three, four, but five main mini wizard modes.
    53:01
    I think that's the right A-flex there. Then you also get one Jedi Master wizard mode. That's the biggest one. Like his father before him. Faja.
    53:14
    I am Faja. Music, sound, call-outs. I mean, it's got the original score, thankfully. Some people are saying, will that get old, though? Hearing it at the opening of every ball.
    53:31
    It's fine. Did it get old on the last game? Not really. No. I mean, I didn't really notice it. I would love for them to have the entire... I wonder if they have the entirety of that score.
    53:46
    You know what I mean? I mean, the entire soundtrack from all three films? Yeah, because I like whenever Luke and Yoda... I like that kind of music, the swampy music, The more dramatic slow music I like the Imperial March Is that what that is? I hope that they have all those different It's such an iconic soundtrack And I know the I get that one's really iconic But I really like the other ones too I like the other ones too I love that the callouts are done by C-3PO Or that character Dude, that stuff I think it's extremely smart because I really don't care about call-outs in general.
    54:34
    Sound effects, I'll have to play the game to know. Animation, display. We've got a bigger display. It's appreciated. I've seen that some people were like, oh, it's still on a small screen because the video clips that come up are not maximizing the whole. And I think Ray Day was talking in our Patreon. He was like, no. Whenever there is, like, gameplay stuff going on, yeah, you're just going to get a, like, majority of the screen is showing the video clip, but it's not going to be the UI, you know. But if there's, like, a moment or something, yeah, it's going to fill up the whole screen. So fear not. And I thought that was awesome. Simple of fear. And fear leads to hatred. That's right. I'm saying. Nobody likes that.
    55:25
    I don't, yeah, I think there was something there. So no worries about the animation displays. Let me just cut the assets that Dennis doesn't care about, the thousand clips. We're good.
    55:37
    Before we jump into sales. You understand my point. You just don't care. Let's talk about the layout.
    55:45
    Fanny. Make room for Fanny. I mean, not the fanniest fan to ever fan. That still is venom. It's pretty fanny. I don't know. I don't think nobody honest could describe this as anything but a fan.
    56:01
    I'm a fan of the fan, but this is fanny. Also, can we please, while we're looking at the layout, take a moment, Zach, to just acknowledge that this playfield art is super disappointing.
    56:15
    The use of the word super I might disagree with. Well, you are a dealer. I do expect you to push back on some of this language. What don't you like? I don't like the little portrait shots that look straight out of the Photoshop book of Photoshop era pinball. I don't care that they're hand-drawn for each of the, hey, look, here's the 3PO shot. Hey, look, here's the Chewbacca shot. And their little poses that they've got there. I also, while I respect that it's a big centerpiece thing in the middle with Vader and Luke dueling in front of the Emperor, they're even green and red outlined like a YouTube thumbnail. Like, oh, we had to make a separate layer and it was hard to cut them out so we have to trace them to mask the fact that we had to use our little clip art tool to clip them around. I would have went and dropped shadow elements there with some black, but okay. That red and green completely tracing around and that is straight up 2018 YouTube thumbnail and you know it is. Yeah, but There's a guide on how to do that in 30 seconds And I don't ever like to use that on my thumbnails Because I think it looks stupid I don't use that as much That's right We're big boys and we don't need tracing around our things To make it extra clear that this was a separate layer But you don't like the composition of the arch there No, that part is okay Dueling? That's iconic That's what people want The emperor right in the middle That's my favorite part of they didn't do that, and then it's mucked up by that tracing glow around them. Luke and Vader never glowed the color of their lightsabers. It's silly. All right, I'll let you go there. No, that composition I do like that approach to, and then you get to the shots, and it's all rebel symbol, word label of what we're talking about, pointy arrow, and then Photoshop.
    58:06
    So I'm going to jump later into things I like, things I don't. Spoiler alert. One of the things Dennis is complaining about is something I love about Star Wars Fall of the Empire. Yay! But the layout itself, I don't think it's anything special. Well, I mean, people like to shoot fans, though, Zach. I mean, this is Star Wars. It's the most iconic license of all time. The original trilogy, the most iconic version of the license. So why not fan it up so that people can play it and feel like they can get somewhere? I'll give Borg some credit on not simply repurposing another one of his designs. Maybe this is the onset of his new run of the next three games he designs. But, I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but that's fair, is it not? I mean, Metallica's Guardians is... No one's going to look at this and say this is a whole new bold design direction. That's where I was about to transition to. What's the point? I'll give him credit for, you know, he put the Vuck where he hasn't put a Vuck. Yeah, I get that. Pop bumper is in new places for him, yeah. Yeah, look at him go. I do like that there is a jump ramp. I like that.
    59:28
    I like that. Do you think it's going to be a hard shooter or an easy shooter? Because I've heard mixed things. I've heard people say this is a mean-ass shooter. I've heard some people say, no, this is, like, pretty simple. This is who, like, if somebody's just getting into pinball, this is the layout. You know, this is Star Trek Pro kind of thing.
    59:50
    Normally with fans, I tend to think they can be long players. Some of the ramps do look like tighter shots than others. For example, the Chewbacca ramp looks like it may be a more precise shot than the Leia ramp. But, again, that's pretty – so my guess would be that this would be a longer player. I'll put it this way. This is a long player for Borg who, as I think I mentioned last time we did a podcast episode, he's like the most brutal designer Stern has currently. And this seems much friendlier than his usual approach, much friendlier. Versus an Elwynn, maybe it is – again, I've heard some people say that there is a brickiness to it. Some of that may just be tied to ramp shots, cause a little bit of brickiness if you haven't dialed it in on how to make the shots. I also heard and I don know how widespread this is this is a few really anecdotal issues with the Death Star 2 target not dropping properly so they're getting rejects on proper shots, and the same with the motorized hyper ramp. It's going in, and it's, like, bricking off of something once you shoot the ramp shot. So there may be some design issues that either require a very particular setup, which is not unusual for Borg in particular. Walking Dead was notorious for needing a very precise setup or else you were going to get pop bumper nest strains down the center constantly.
    61:26
    Or possibly we may see this as yet another example of a mechanical design flaw that was allowed to go out there. And then there's some sort of thing that Stern does later to tell us how to fix it. I don't know yet. I haven't seen enough to think that it's a break, but I've read a number of reports now about the Death Star target causing issues where people are like get it down and try and shoot into it and something is still sticking up or whatever and it's screwing up the shot. But regardless, that target may be a reject. The crumb drop, Scolari style, those will probably shorten play time if that thing's up a lot. As we know, those little in-the-play field drops often screw up shots. So Borg usually has relied on his bash toys for that, but I think he's got a few things here that will probably be ball killers that aren't bash toys or designed to shorten the length of play. I think the game is going to be a really – tend to be a difficult shooter. I think that this thing – if you look at the flyback shots on this, They're more than the main shots. You've got, first off, two pop bumpers low are going to be tough. We know Borg outlanes are typically tough. We've got, look at the stand-up targets and the posts. These shots are not wide shots. They look like narrow shots to squeeze all those shots in there. And you don't have one of those little blue nub thin things. You have either a post or a stand-up target on every single shot surrounding. Those things are going to fly back at you all the time. And then two of your main shots, almost the sweep ramp position typically shots, the AT-AT is a stand-up target that's ready to fly back at you. And like you said, that drop target is ready to fly back at you. And then, oh, don't forget the other five stand-up targets that are ready to fly back at you. And then on the premium L.E., when the ramp is down in the center, guess what? There's a stand-up target, and it's ready to fly back at you. It looks like a game That is going to, if you're not making shots It's going to be flying back At you, which makes sense for there to be An additional magnetic way To save your ball I don't think that this is going to be Any walk in the park by any means So when people, oh I don't think It's going to be using competitions If there's that much depth in the code And there's that much battling That you're going to do fighting this machine I don't see this as an easy shooter at all. That might not be a drain monster, but there's a difference between a drain monster and an easy shooter. And this does not look like, to me, an easy shooter. I could be wrong. This is a fan that's hard to see for me. Usually I can tell. This one's tougher for me to tell because it doesn't look easy at all to shoot with all of the ways that the ball flies right back at you.
    64:23
    You see them stand-ups and them post-dennis? Yeah. You're right. A lot of them. The tightest shot on the game looks like the Death Star shot.
    64:32
    Because you can't, I don't know if you're going to be able to hit it from the left flipper. That post may be in the way. Yeah, it's tough. It's on, you know, that's set to the back.
    64:44
    That Starlite pitch shot looks pretty tight with that post and a standoff target and a drop in front of it.
    64:54
    Yeah, we'll see. We will see. The artwork on the play field, we didn't discuss that when we did You're shitting all over it I like the composition of it I'll give you the whole glowing colors thing, I'll give you that And will you also give me the standard Hey look, here's the famous pose of every single character for the whole character shot We'll get to that one Okay When it comes to rules I'm excited about the rules I'm excited that there's already an announcement of that many rules in the game. There's already a structure for 24 modes.
    65:39
    This is what's starting to frustrate me in the hobby. And then maybe in society in general. Yeah, too many rules. It's just like this. There's two options in life. It's meh Or extreme hate Whatever happened to joy And excitement Huh Just like what we were talking about The assets It's like either we would bitch hardcore That there's no assets Or our expectation is that there's everything So That's what I'm Like nobody's talking about the rules and code Because it seems It's pretty awesome that there's going to be some depth there. But it's like, I don't know. It's expected.
    66:27
    24 modes? When's the last time a game had freaking 24 modes? That's pretty cool. Harry Potter. It was like 96 or something. Whatever.
    66:37
    But you know what I mean. Four main multiball modes? I could care less because multiballs are whatever. But five mini wizard modes? We get like two in most games. My point is I am happy to see this kind of stuff because it makes me think, regardless of what you think about the art or the layout or anything, it's going to have some depth here. And I'm excited that we have a really, really ambitious, hungry programmer that's behind this. I like it. It's the young guy that is here to prove himself on his first fully featured game kind of thing. That's exciting to me. If anything, that's exciting me more than the legendary designer himself, John Borg.
    67:27
    It's exciting me more than the toys in this game. So I'm excited about that. What are your thoughts on the rules? Do you think, I mean, the downsides out of the gate is probably going to be pretty bare?
    67:41
    I mean, I don't know. It's all about, I think, the experience. I don't get impressed by numbers like this. You can call whatever you want in mini wizard mode. So that's just the way, you know, how you're choosing to slice up the steak and label the things. So, yeah, the numbers sound nice. But what was the last Stern game that actually felt barren? I would argue it was Munsters in terms of light on rules. I don't think Stern has a reputation for ultimately not having a lot of depth to their games. So highlighting that there's depth here I think meh is a reasonable response But what Raid A does with the rules And how well the game plays because of those rules That's an open question And whether or not it rises into a pantheon Of this is an incredible experience I like how these rules work with this layout And integrate with this theme Only by playing it can we decide that So it's hard to prejudge it Because I don't think you can Because the code won't be 1.0 out of the gate It's going to take some time I do agree Don't fail us Ray Day Or else you'll be back on band pins This is Star Wars Ray Day As you're tussling at night Trying to go to sleep Stay up that extra half an hour And realize that it's all up to you It's all up to you When it comes to We want to talk sales Or what I like what I don't What do we want to do, Dennis? Your pick. What do you feel like? What do your bones tell you?
    69:18
    What I like, what I don't. Okay. All right. What do you like, Zach? All right, look. Everything. What do you not like? I'm a little uninspired. What I love about this game is... Oh, love. I like love. I'm going love. Wow. Yeah, because we... Lord knows we need that right now more than ever. What I'm meh on or what I despise. That's what we should call this segment.
    69:46
    Is it mid or fucking hatred? Mid. Fuck. Mid's actually pretty. I thought mid-Elorian was not enough. This is where my.
    69:58
    Oh, my gosh. I don't know. That's how these kids are nowadays. It's like, do you never get happy? This is my happy day. No cap. Oh, God. No cap. Six, seven. I mean, come on. So what I love, what I don't, what I love is the theme. Fucking Star Wars. For anybody to bitch and moan about one of the most iconic, most beloved, most obsessive, worthy themes and IPs in all of pinball history, much less the world,
    70:32
    you're going to cry about it being Star Wars? This is not only Star Wars, but it's full Star Wars assets. It's everything that we want in a pinball machine. So, yes, it's going to be one of the biggest. It's the biggest plus for me. Like, this game is a guarantee for me because of a couple things, and this is one of them. You're going to give me Star Wars? You're going to give me all the assets of Star Wars? And then you're going to give me depth and stuff? Yeah, I'm in. It's Star Wars. Hell yeah. So no matter how many negatives I have, yeah, it's Star Wars. Like when I collect pinball, the most important thing for me, honestly, is theme and the integration into theme. It's a reflection of what I like in my life. So Star Wars is absolutely one of them. So this is a guarantee. It's a guarantee to go into my collection without a doubt. What I don't, though, what I don't love about Star Wars Fall of the Empire,
    71:40
    I hate to say this, but the main feature? I mean, one could argue that the Death Star is the main. The Death Star is in all the models. It's clearly their pick as the main feature, clearly. I don't agree with it, but that's what they picked. For that, I will say Uninspired 2. I'm not getting a big main feature of this game like I would like to. That's the downside. I like the sculpt of the Death Star, but holding balls and then spitting them out. Thanks, Groot. I'm good. I don't even think it spits them out. I think it just rolls them out.
    72:16
    And honestly, the whole jump to hyperspace ramp, I don't think it worked in Rush. I don't really think it works here. It's a stand-up target. So you're telling me the feature is a stand-up target? That's what the feature is. Now, if the Pro had just a stand-up target there and no ramp at all to jump over into the hyperspace backboard, okay. But the Pro has the jump ramp. And the premium, the upgrade is for it to go flat and you hit a stand-up target?
    72:50
    No. I didn't like that on Rush. I don't like it here. Here's my argument. Now, follow with me, viewer, because the payoff is worth it.
    73:01
    If I'm a designer, Borg had it. He was so close. Look at that, what was it, Professor Crump Drop Target? What's the Drop Target's name?
    73:15
    Whatever, isn't it? Salicious Crump? Frump? Oh, like Crum, I think. Crum, Crum. Yeah. Crum. I always forget that thing has a name. Crum. with Jim Henson's labyrinth.
    73:29
    Yeah, I think that drop target is delicious. All you'd have to do, look how genius this is. He was so close. Follow me here. Take that drop target. Shift it over in front of that lift ramp. Now what you could do, Dennis, hit the drop target down. That lift ramp is flat to that stand-up target. Hit the stand-up target, which triggers the drop target to come up and hold the ball. Lift ramp comes up. Now you can use another ball to hit the drop target, which in turn, kinetically, makes that ball behind it fly up the ramp, over the gap, into hyperspace.
    74:12
    And you want a multi-ball that many times? All I'm saying is, shifting a drop target to the left actually makes me care about drop target, and stand-up target of neither which I care about by themselves. We now have a new design feature that's never done before in pinball, and all it takes is shifting over a drop target. You were right there, Borg. Right there. A kinetic jump ramp? Fuck. Now, that's cool. Hopefully, you hit it hard enough so that it transfers enough energy to make the jump into hyperspace. How many parsecs are you going to get? Oh, see?
    74:50
    That. That's how you do it. So now, that's what I don't like. What I do love, love, it's not mid, I love this about Star Wars Fall of the Empire, are the toys and mechs. Most specifically, that force magnet gives me a boner. Pinball boner, 100%. That thing is awesome. And if it is not coded as an intermittent pulsation of a tank of fuel using for that magnet, it better not be an all or nothing. I want it to be you use so much of it and then you're out. If it is that way, game changer. That's fucking awesome.
    75:34
    We're now controlling the ball with more than just slippers. 100% love that. And I said toys and match because, for me, I'm a sucker for that AT-AT falling. I just am. And people are like, well, it's kind of small. It doesn't really do – I don't give a shit. It's the AT-AT toy that I own that falls down after I, like, hit the target in front of it. I'm a sucker for it. It's cool. It's iconic. And I love just the iconic nature of, like, twirling around that wire form. It's representative of the film, and I'd have to have that little toy in the premium. Is it worth that extra money for the pro?
    76:18
    Yeah, I have to have it. I have to have that. But what I don't love about Star Wars Fall of the Empire is the toys and mechs. What I mean by that one is, Dennis, it's the heads.
    76:34
    I just, for the life of me, I don't know what that team was thinking when they did the heads. It feels like an afterthought. We've got a ship. We've got a Death Star. And then you got heads?
    76:52
    I don't. It looks like a modder did it. I don't. It's something that I may, on my LE, I may take off. I may see if I can take that off. I don't like them. I don't like how they light up. I just, they don't make sense to me. I don't know. Modders out there, if you want to get back in my good graces,
    77:17
    please replace those heads with something else. I'm not even going to mention my thoughts about Jabba the Hutt. Because I like that he's there, and I like the representation of the ball falling into the pit, the whole layup. I like all of that. I think it's cute that he even is curling a little ball, even though it's going to confuse a lot of first time customers I might have to explain to them that no the ball's not stuck, no you don't have to take it off no I like the looks of it, how he lights up eh but it's the heads I can't do the heads what do I love about Star Wars Fall of the Empire well quite simply the devil's in the details Dennis and I love the details of this game such as what you shit all over and that is the composition of the insert art. Never before have I seen insert, maybe going back to like, I think Guardians had some awesome insert art. This insert art is legit. It's a flasher insert, so it's going to shine a lot of light and I love that it's like superimposed. It takes its own space. The art takes its own space over the insert. I love that. I think it looks fantastic. Seeing Han Solo not have the boundaries of that insert, For him to just be over the top of that insert, but it's still flashing in the background like its own layer, that's fucking sweet. And it looks good. You said Photoshopped art. That's hand-illustrated art, baby. I love that. I know it's hand-illustrated. It looks great. It's the same composition, and I don't blame the artists. It's Disney, but these are the pre-approved versions that they always use. Lay it on the speeder bike? It's cool. It's cool how the artwork. When I showed this to someone initially and they saw the Luke one, until they read Luke, they thought that was Wedge because they couldn't tell who it was. Not a good sign. Really? Yeah. Wedge? Yeah.
    79:17
    Wedge Antilles. I love how Luke is upside down on his one hand, but he's kind of overlapping the Yoda insert. I think it's really clever. I really, really like it. I hope they do more of this kind of stuff in the future because inserts can be so boring. But the details of Chewbacca standing in front of the insert, it brings it more to life. That's something that I actually love when art overlaps the insert. If it can be done in a way that the opacity is correct and it's not blown out, if you can manage to do that, yeah, I really like that. But what I don't love about Star Wars Fall of the Empire, it's actually the details.
    80:07
    The detail of the Ellie armor. There's this AT-AT cutout by the flipper button. Oh, man, guys. Like, these decisions.
    80:21
    Who did that and thought, you know what, fucking nailed it? Like, no, what are you doing? That's not good. So many of these companies now are coming out with this armor that they just almost feel forced to cut something into it. But if you've got nothing good to cut, don't cut at all. And the AT-AT of just a figure of it, it's not good. It is not good. I would have rather just had it solid. But remember on the Star Wars Ellie, the 2017 one, where it had almost like the metal circular cutouts from like the ship? It's just like a pattern. Like that was nice. That was really nice looking. I don't need this little character Ellie. It looks like crap. I just want a regular. Just make it solid. I know you can't because it's already on the line. But anything that looks like a bad aftermarket product, I don't want on an OEM game. That's the reason I don't like half the mods that are out now. I don't like them. So overall, yeah, what I love is, yeah, this game's freaking Star Wars, and I can't, thank God, it's not an IP that I don't like and that represents very well in my collection what I love in pop culture and media and films and stuff. So yeah Tony being mad at it I guess from a gamer perspective He argued that he wants Something different in the world of Star Wars To play I mean I guess if you're like a gamer And you want to play something different But to like own No man I don't want Book of Boba Fett Because it's different than the Data East Star Wars No no Technology changes what doesn't is my love for nostalgia and the themes. I don't want that to change. I don't want them to change it. I want to see an iteration of that until the day I'm dead.
    82:21
    Keep up the good stuff. What about the sales? What have you been hearing sales-wise with this game? I don't hear anything. I mean, I heard someone who said they, I've heard one thing. I heard one person say they bought it, and they bought it because of the theme, which is exactly Stern's plan and I mean I've looked online and there were a lot of mehs and mids and it looks good for Star Wars but we just got a Star Wars five years ago nobody cares but some people care so I don't know I just kind of wish the layout felt more different than I wish a lot of things but sales wise I don't know and then there's the whole European thing that's complicated the whole mess of it because now it's all so U.S. focused. It's true. I just don't. So I have not, what I will say is I have not heard the same level of purchase interest as I did with King Kong, but King Kong wasn't about the theme. It's, you know, there's people that buy Elwynn stuff and definitely haven't heard anything like Harry Potter out of this. I think it's fair, yeah. Well, but Harry Potter, again, there's a price to, you know, you can point out fairly about the excitement as much as you want about this is a theme I want, a theme in my collection. People need to remember they can't have it both ways. I don't want to hear all this grousing about how there's no Goonies and there's no all this other stuff when you want the well revisited constantly. Like, you don't get it both ways. Well, when Stern releases three games a year, yeah, you do. No, you don't. You get it both ways. Clearly not, because we could have had something that had never been, you could have had your big trouble in Little China, but no, you don't. You get this instead. And in five years, we'll get another Star Wars original trilogy. Thank you.
    84:09
    Sign me up. And it's just like, how many people want that many Star Warses in their collections? Yeah, me.
    84:18
    Yeah, but how many people have as many games as you do? I would like, just think about like, if Jersey Jack had Star Wars next year. Sign me up. Big LCD screen. I just shake my head. it's the same reason that we said that you could take Harry Potter and make three games out of it but your argument would be it's different storylines you could have, if this had been if each game gets a yes, New Hope, five years later Empire, five years later Jedi you achieve the same thing and it's different, but that's not the strategy so, and that's fine they need to do what they need to do to make money, I'm not going to and people should buy what they like. I'm not going to tell you not to buy it. It looks competent. I'm just saying, like, there's a – you mentioned the frustration about the meh versus it's crap. My frustration is the people that want it both ways. I want to – I want all the same things I've loved forever. Like, this is ideal for a hardcore Star Wars fan. But for a pinball fan, I have more sympathy for the argument of there are all these great nostalgia things that have never been done before. Where's He-Man? I would have rather seen He-Man than another Star Wars and I like Star Wars more than He-Man I'm just saying if theme is what matters I think for most pinball people they want to see these different themes not the same five really popular themes over and over and over do you think that is from a gaming perspective you want to see different stuff or from an owning perspective um you see what I mean I think I do. I'm not sure. See, because I don't buy off of theme the same way that some other collectors do. So for me, the differences in layout are more important, and rules are more important than anything else, really, fundamentally. So in a way, the theme, like if there was a theme I just hated, I wouldn't own it just because. So, I mean, theme has a role in my world, too. because I'm not like inherently a big Deadpool fan or a big Godzilla fan or anything.
    86:32
    It's just those games were interesting. So that's more important for me. Do you like that they took the swing on something like a John Wick? Would you have rather seen what they could do with John Wick rather than another Star Wars iteration? Yes. I thought choosing John Wick was a very smart move. Okay. I thought it was smart. And I'm disappointed with myself that I don't like the game.
    86:59
    That's interesting. I thought it had a very unique art look, too. Other than that, there's not like a really cool toy I could point to with it. There's a lot about it that I thought was pretty clever, but I just don't like how the game shoots. Well, yeah, I think you make a really good argument that a lot of people will probably agree with. I mean, that's two different camps very much so of somebody that, because if you were to ask me two years ago, hey, would you rather have a John Wick be released, something different and new that we haven't seen before, or would you rather have Stern spend the time and resources on Star Wars trilogy again? I think there is a camp that's just like you, Dennis, that says, yeah, we've already had Star Wars. Give me John Wick. Give me the stuff I haven't seen before. But then there's also a camp that's like, oh, no.
    87:48
    Give me what we know is great. John Wick is not it. And commercially, the Star Wars is the safer, smarter play. I do think commercially. Yeah, but that's only part of it. Well, commercially, it's a business. It's a business. But, again, as you know, there's a lot of untapped nostalgia themes. Oh, yeah. That a company like Stern could do such interesting things. And that's where I'm giving you grief about Back to the Future. But Back to the Future hasn't been done as much as Star Wars has. Like, at this point, you'd be like, well, maybe that should have been given a shot. Or we start thinking about all these other things like, where's Gremlins? Where's E.T.? Like, there's some huge stuff, huge stuff.
    88:28
    And instead, no, we go back to the well. It just frustrates me from a theme diversity perspective. I get so frustrated because there's so much strong stuff. Die Hard, A Real Predator. You know, there's so much, there's so many great, great things that people remember.
    88:49
    Do another RoboCop at this point. I mean, it wasn't even in the DMD era they did RoboCop. Like, there's so many things that have more demand than others, but your example of Goonies is a good touch. Like, Goonies should have been done by now, and that it wasn't. And I don't care about Goonies at all. That's a theme. But something new for you. But it was a big enough touchstone it deserves to be a pinball machine. That's what I would say. Okay. I like the argument. That's my only point. My argument is why not both? That's where I'm at. Well, we only know we're going to get every year. We get three a year, and I can see that argument. Yeah, but we got seven. The pudding is in the eating sack, and we ain't been eating Goonies. We get seven to ten titles a year. We'll be fine. We'll get what we want, I think. Every time I see a redo. That's why I don't get excited about the remasters either. Well, my bigger thing, and I think it is reflective upon sales ultimately as we're discussing, is Star Wars is going to get you a crap load of sales. Just the theme and if you have the assets, that's probably the biggest determinant of like sales. Now, if you want to go from this amount of sales, great sales, to extraordinary sales, not as big of a bump, not as big of a window, but the only way to get that next window is how it's done. That is the presentation, the gameplay, the toys, the mechs. So if I was consulting with Stern or anybody else, I would say something big like Star Wars is going to get you what you're looking for. But if you're looking for the icing and the cherry and everything, the theme itself is not going to get you there. And what we've seen so far sales-wise is just that. It is selling very well.
    90:40
    But when it comes to Star Wars, in a nutshell, it's selling about like Dungeons and Dragons and King Kong are selling. Do you think that's because we're in a really, really strong year for themes?
    90:58
    Multiple things. It's the market. It's that Harry Potter and a couple of really strong things have come out. It's the summer. I mean, there's all kinds of things. It's that Star Wars has been done before. It's that it's not a Keith Elwin game. It that the toys on here are not what we see on a big ape that pounding the glass and stopping the ball and throwing a it a lot of things But sales yeah if I can like it weird because if I talk about Dungeons Dragons and King Kong sales, I would say they're good. They're really good, if not great. This has the, I'm seeing the same amount of sales in this, and my expectation would be that it should be higher because I expect more out of Star Wars as an IP, personally.
    91:49
    Are your, let me, and you decide if you're willing to answer it or not, are your sales of the pro version on par with the pros of Kong and Dungeons? It's better. That's why it's weird. No, yeah. I hate this pro lineup. I'm like, holy crap. I mean, I thought this would have given you those premium sales because, to me, the best toy is the force magnet, and it's not in there. It is strange to me. But what I think is happening, because Greg was saying the same thing that I was talking to, he was like, oh, my God, like, I can't believe not everybody's buying a premium over the pro. I think as of this recording, I may have sold more pros than premiums, and that is never a thing. That's never a thing. But what I think it is, I think it's twofold. I think people are buying Star Wars for Star Wars And a lot of people are jumping This is going to get a lot of new pinball players in Because it's like the big theme Just the way Harry Potter got a lot of new pinball people in And newcomers are going to typically buy pros more than they are premiums and stuff Because it's cheaper substantially They just buy the pros Because they're like, I'm not spending that much on a pinball machine And if I am, $7,000 is more than I'd ever want to spend So it's that and it's operators.
    93:07
    But I didn't think you sold a lot to operators. We don't, but we still do, but not a ton. I'm not saying they shouldn't have released this pro model. I think this pro model is a great option for operators. Who wants to deal with a ramp that goes up and down? Who wants to deal with, I'm amazed, a pro operator probably rather than not even be a door that opens for the Death Star. And Magnet probably a lot of people that don't know the game aren't going to use. Yeah, they're not going to use it. It increases the risk of wear, all those things. So, no, from an operator perspective, absolutely. Stripped-down pros make total sense to me. And I'm usually a pretty big supporter of pros anyway, even for the home collector, where it makes sense. Here, I feel like, I don't know, I was surprised. Outside of operators, I was just surprised. I see that, okay, if you've got, of all the operators that operate pinball in the world, a lot of them don't buy new pinball machines, or it's rare that they do. Sure. But whenever you have a theme like Star Wars, they're going to pull the trigger probably before they did on King Kong. They might have passed on. They might have passed on Dungeons, on King X-Men.
    94:15
    But when they hear, even if they're not, they're pinball operators, but they're arcade operators. They're not really so into pinball, but they have some machines they put on round. Whenever they hear Star Wars, that typical operator operator is going to be like, oh, that's a must. I got to get that pro. That's why I told you that this was a very smart commercial decision for Star Wars. Yeah. So that's what we're saying. I'm saying, yeah, I think I have one more pro order than I do premium orders, and that's shocking. Usually it's three to one premiums to pro for us, for my company.
    94:52
    The LE sales have been very strong on this one, but that's not surprising. It's not a 1,000-unit thing. It's 770.
    94:59
    So that doesn't surprise me. And it's Star Wars. So it's going to, it'll sell out. I'm not worried about that. Now, will it go up in, I think it all, the cards are on the table.
    95:13
    The success of this game now falls into the hands of the coding team. That's what's going to push this thing another 2,000 to 5,000 units versus another 1,000 units. It's the coding team. I don't think anything has killed the sales for what's been presented thus far. I think some things have helped more than others for sales, but I think the coding, the programming now, the moments, that's what's going to get you, and I may have talked to CERN about that, that's what's going to get you whether this is one of the best sellers or just another good release with standard sales numbers.
    95:59
    So we'll see. It's a good discussion, Dennis. I'm feeling it in my loins. I'm feeling it. I'm excited.
    96:09
    Are you excited about Spike 3, the new platform? Excited is a strong word. Mad may be more appropriate. I'm feeling mid.
    96:20
    It's just, I make society. I just want to throw SSRIs at everybody. Come on. Actually, now, there would be an argument that that would mad people, too. But cocaine? I made that up.
    96:36
    Spike people's joy. The new Spike 3 platform. Platform improvements are not a big bang one-time thing. They're going to continue to invest in quality of life improvements over time. Keep that in mind. But there is some substantive increased processing power in this new operating system as we're transitioning over to the Spike 3 discussion here. It's powered by what you were calling it, a custom-programmed Raspberry Pi computer module.
    97:09
    It's the Pi. Yeah. Four times the performance for compute and video processing power. That's hefty. That's nice. It is. How they take advantage of that, we'll have to see. Two times the memory. all of this is always contingent upon like exponential technology advancements year after year right remember when memory cards were one thing and five years later it's like you can get a 12 terabyte and it's like holy shit I thought a 12 terabyte would be impossible so when I hear two times the memory I'm like okay like my first hard drive was 40 megabytes Yeah.
    97:50
    That's fantastic. It was like a big old thing with a built-in fan. They were big. They were loud. And they would get bad sectors. You had to scan them all the time to label the bad sectors. It's one high-res photo now.
    98:06
    Yes. Three times faster, higher quality, larger storage, microSD memory. Okay. Better hardware, video decoding, and playback. and they need that because they now have a larger display with full HD graphics.
    98:23
    I don't know what full HD. What was Mike 2's resolution? I don't know. I thought it was full HD. I thought so, too, but maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was 720. I'm glad this didn't get too big. I think that they left a good amount of space for the translights still. So I do like the new screen. I like the look of this. I do, too. Bigger is always better. I could have went bigger.
    98:44
    Absolutely. Yeah. No. No, I don't want them to go full JJP slash P3. I thought you were going to say something else.
    98:52
    I thought you were going to Tropic Thunder it there. I was like, whoa, whoa, Dennis. Whoa, whoa. I don't think we're there yet.
    98:59
    18.5-inch display is 35% larger than the Spike 2 counterpart while still retaining that back glass art, like you said. New full HD resolution has 125% more pixels than a Spike 2 screen. Okay. and true color depth now enables 256 times as many colors as the last generation. So many colors. Now the black and white versions are going to look even dumber. Wait for that saturation.
    99:28
    They're going to beef up them pinks. Oh, yeah. When I say I want bigger, I still would have loved to have seen more of cinematic widescreen like we talked about. That might get a little squirrely with the clips. I know. I would have loved it. Enhanced audio experience for those audiophiles out there. Upgraded amplifier with two times the wattage and integrated equalization and crossover filter. That sounds important. I know so little about sound, I can't comment on any of this. I'm not an audiophile. I don't understand this stuff. As the host of a podcast. Hilarious. That we put out in mono. Well, it's a talk show. Exactly. It's just like I want it under 100 kilobits per second. I want it. This is not, guys, don't overthink it. Talking in your left speaker. This is like when you switch to this Riverside platform, which is great, but I remember you were like, you said after our first video of the new iteration, you were like, I want to do it in 1080p. And I'm like, if you want, but I'm thinking, why? Like, it's two people, two talking heads. We're barely moving. Nobody cares. It still kills me to create content in 2025 with 1080p resolution. It is killing me. And it's killing me using the camera that I'm using right now. I just, it's tough, but that's okay. It's a good challenge in practice for me. Good challenge. Okay. Improved mid-range speaker with 50% higher power handling. Thank you, Stern. separate tweeter if you're tweaking.
    101:14
    On the LE, it's a standard separate tweeter. I was like, this is something I was going to get excited about, but then I saw it was only for the LE. You can make that upgrade, though. It's going to be an accessory.
    101:26
    Do we need tweeters? Tweeters are a good thing, right? Yeah, they are important. Give you the highs?
    101:31
    Yeah. Okay. I went to a dollar theater decades ago, and they had that movie, Dragonheart. Oh, my. Yeah. So we had a drama theater in the area where things, they weren't out on home video yet. I remember those theaters, yeah. Okay. And it was, I remember the name of the place. The place was called Ranch Mart. Ranch Mart? Yeah, very Midwestern name. Ranch as in a cattle ranch and Mart as in Kmart. Yeah. And so I went in there, and that's how I first saw Dragonheart. But the subwoofers in the theater were all blown out. It was just tweeters. So it was all like, I am the last dragon. It's like Sean Connery ain't sounding much like Sean Connery. Roars.
    102:12
    It was fun. Sharp to the ear. Oh, wireless headphone support. So a lot of people have been wanting that. I know some people that do. Is there any delay, though?
    102:27
    Because I know that Bluetooth sometimes, like in my car, I get a delay from the video. Yeah, I have a delay if I put on my wireless headphones and I link to my phone. If I have a YouTube video up, I can't watch the video. The mouth does not sync. Yeah, I wonder. I don't know. One of the things that's throwing me, I don't know if in person I'll like it or if I'll dislike it.
    102:51
    The jury's still out. Is the looks of the speaker lighting now that there's an additional tweeter. I don't know. I was talking to Gray. He loves the looks. I don't know yet. I have to see it in person. Yeah, I would too as well. I kind of get where Greg's coming from, but Greg also thought Deadpool had too much red in it, so I don't really trust his view on visuals. You're not wrong.
    103:18
    I'm not wrong, man. I still remember that. He's like, it's too much red. I'm like, bruh, are you kidding me? It's like saying I'm wearing too much red. It's like Hulk is too green. Yeah, Hulk is a little too green. That's right. Smurfs are a little too blue. Oh, Smurfs. We could have had Smurfs, but no, we had to have Star Wars.
    103:40
    I'd take a Smurfs all day long if it's the original Smurfs. Don't give me this rebooted bullshit. I don't want any 3D schlocky animation. No. I want Gargamel. And if Smurfs did well, they could do Snorks.
    103:57
    Underwater Snorks. This was Ken who always wanted Snorks. It sounds right. That's a throwback, Mrs. Penn. Mrs. Penn's pinball podcast. I still like their magnets and stuff. I love all the listeners out there. Mrs. Penn. Back in our day, there was a podcaster by the name of Mrs. Penn. She was sweet but also salty. She had a nice juxtaposition that people respected. Who launched her show because her husband, Dr. Penn, was watching Jack Danger streaming while, live streaming while eating something at a pinball show. And I think her reaction, forgive me, Mrs. Finney, if you're listening and I get this wrong, was, that is stupid, I could do that. And then proceeded to do that. And did that. Did that very well. Yeah. I don't think, it wouldn't surprise me if Mrs. Pin wasn't in pin at all anymore. Yeah, I don't know if her husband's still getting pinball machines or not. I don't know. Because he was, Dr. Penn ended up being with Super Awesome Pinball. He turned into a podcaster. For those that are newer to listening, there was one point, there was like a surge of pinball podcasting that all sort of came about at the same time. And like, well, like podcasts in general, many of them crashed and burned for various reasons. A lot of them quickly. Mrs. Penn actually lasted quite a while. Super Awesome came on and off again a few times. But depending on how you think of it, it lasted a while, too. But we had a whole lot that just kind of cropped up and then just sort of turned to dust pretty quick. That's true. Anyway, neither here nor there. Spike 3, continue on. Additional enhancements, including networking and power handling, such as better Wi-Fi support. This is one of the pieces I am excited about. Yeah, dual band 2.4 gigahertz and the 5 gigahertz with internal antenna. 5 will definitely help with the speed on downloading those updates. I'm hoping the distance, too. It's a stronger. Yeah.
    105:56
    My Godzilla one is horrid. It's like. Oh, I know. It's so slow. I have mesh systems at the shop and mesh systems here at my house because my pinball machines are housed in another building. And it's a thing. Can't stand it. Advanced power handling with sleep-wake modes to allow faster play. I'm also really excited about this. The worst thing about Spike 2 is the boot time. Yeah. Well, spooking Jersey Jacks would hold my beer. I'll just start. Because I have Sam's as well. And Sam's. Ready to go. Like half a second. Here we go. Ready for some Walking Dead. That's so true. Not with Spike.
    106:35
    One cable HDMI monitor output. A streamer's may like that. I don't care. I just, in general, honestly, I'm not a streamer. But I'm a video content creator. And I love that. because I can pull it more easily.
    106:50
    Remember the saga of the streaming cards that Stern developed? That's a whole Patreon episode. Yes, at some point we'll do that one. I was the Robin Hood of that situation, and it did not end well for me. Well, I guess it ended okay. All right. Update a back box architecture to support new electronics. That's vague. new speaker lights format to support upgraded speakers. A necessary upgrade to deal with other changes. We did hear that there's a new cabinet expression lighting system that's not debuting on Star Wars, but will be seen in future stuff. So that's interesting. Operating systems and rendering systems have been upgraded. Redesigned board and chip architecture to enable long-term support. Numerous wiring changes and additional board redesigns. and an upgraded power supply that we're already seeing with a quieter fan. A lot of people are really excited about that. I've had louder fans than Spike 2 systems, so the old power supply didn't really bother me.
    107:52
    Wasn't it Tim Monk who, like, has built an entire empire on quieting people's power supplies? Still, in my opinion, kind of a pain to change out, but substantial difference whenever you do. I did it once, and I'm like, eh, I'll take the buzzing. Just, ugh, it's a thing. But people have time. I've learned that in life. A lot of people have time to do stuff. I'm envious of that. They have time to do the mods and stuff. You could do that if we weren't recording this show. Every other Sunday.
    108:23
    That's right. Every other Sunday would be Power Supply Fan Day. Oh, these people have got it coming. And by these people, I mean those of you who are official members of the pinball show. And if you're not, throw us your freaking bone here. Just go to patreon.com slash the pinball show. It's $10 a month. You spend more on that juicy Whopper cheeseburger that you buy.
    108:49
    It's like buying one Whopper a month. That's not going to kill anybody. This, arguably, the Whopper will kill you quicker than this will. Do you remember the time we had someone who complained about the $10 charge instead of it being the $5? And then on the next episode, you brought up, you know what, there's a good point. You should really consult your financial advisor before you decide to start a business. They broke back and they were so angry. They got something. They're, fuck you, man.
    109:24
    Yeah, I mean. That's what it is. You get what you get. You know, you get what you pay for. Me and Pepperidge Farm remember that. $10, I don't think it's a stretch. And if it's not in your budget, I understand that too. I get it. But for what, 10 games of pinball? Come on. It does help us out. Patreon.com slash The Pinball Show. But the reason I bring it up, sign up now, is that the exclusive content, this episode, Dennis, is going to be some other industry news that we didn't get to because it's such a big, Colossal Galaxy-sized Star Wars Day. So we're going to talk about some Stern rumors. We're going to talk about some stuff from Barrels of Fun, Spooky Pinball, CGC, Dutch, some big Dutch stuff, Pedretti, Pinball Brothers.
    110:12
    Tune in now, patreon.com slash thepinballshow. And thank you to all of those official club members. We do have a happy hour hangout coming up this, what is it, the 30th? Next Monday. Yeah, it's going to be the following week on Monday. The 29th. 29th at 8 p.m. Central. Yes. Very kind of Zach to accommodate. I am traveling this week when you hear this, so I was not able to really do it when we were maybe planning to. So we're going to be doing that, the happy hour hangout. That's more fun than it should be. And it's already posted on Patreon for people who are Nordman level or higher. And it's always a time that people are like, regarding your last episode, tell me more about this. Or regarding this new story that popped up on insert media person, tell me about this. So it's a lot of fun. But that's going to be the 29th. And for those part of the Nordman level or the Screaming Goat Club level, they can attend that. But we've got to say some thank yous right now for being our Screaming Goat. Thank you so much. Like Rodney.
    111:24
    He's, I guess, a little kitty cat. Rodney, thank you so much for the continued support. You are our bobcat. Oh, shoot that fucker! Also, thank you to another kitty cat we have. The panther, Rob. Thank you so much, Rob, for the continued support as a Screaming Goat Club member.
    111:45
    Frank. How could we forget you and your talents? So pointy. Caw-caw is right. Thank you for your support.
    111:56
    Charlie. Ding-dong and thank you. I just love that call out now. I don't know why, so I go ding-dong on all of it. Thank you, Charlie.
    112:06
    Charlie passed on Star Wars. It's all right. He wasn't feeling it. He had to play it first. William. The dude. You're just one thing, dude. What's that?
    112:19
    You have to use so many cuss words. He didn't pass on Star Wars. No, he didn't. No, I know. I can tell. Most of the people so far went in on Star Wars. What the fuck are you talking about? Adam. Basha! I don't know why it still makes me smile. Papa T.
    112:40
    Did he buy it? Do it. You are like Papa! No comment Unlimited at least He'd get his own custom little Translate Papa team I am your father No it's not true You're like papa It's Ferger Love it Oh and Archaea Taker Okay Thank you so much After the lightsaber incident Luke just had a tiny hand I cook it with all the chitlets. I got my little tiny hand. Take my little robot hand. The penises and the genies. The force is strong with that hand.
    113:29
    Jerk off, you cannot, with that hand. He looks at R2. Watch his eye. Walk away. Walk. Sad R2 sounds. Oh, poor. Okay.
    113:45
    Caretaker. Thank you so much, Brian. And I'm sorry at the same time. Discord right now is one of the benefits of being a social club member. He's never written in saying he does actually have a tiny hand, and this is all really offensive to him. So I think we might be okay with it. But he hasn't said that it's not true either. Look, we would have probably not designated him that if he did have a disabled hand. Only if he told us, though, because we don't know. I know, but had we known that, I don't think we would have. I can't confirm that we wouldn't have, but I don't think we would have. We might have just been wrong. Yeah, I don't think we would have. We may have. We may have taken the chance because it's too fun. Sometimes when things are too funny, you take the chance. I don't know, because we did have, you know, it was a debate. We did have a few other really good options. We did.
    114:38
    Discord right now. There's not the potential for the new goats. All the chatter in Discord right now is with Medieval Madness Merlins and Star Wars Fall of the Empire. Yeah. Come join us at the Happy Hour Hangout, people.
    114:54
    You know what? What? That was a good episode. I think we're good there. I think we are good there. Not trending up Fall of the Empire? I think they've got enough. Trending up is certainly what I've been working on this last week in video. That's going to be training up coming soon. 720p.
    115:17
    Oh. I think, you know what, this time around, I go 4K now, but I think we're doing, oh, gosh, for all you aspect ratio nerds out there, I think it's like a 4K, it's a 4,000-something rather than a 3,800-by-something. I don't know.
    115:37
    Sorry. Dennis, where can people catch you? You can always email Collecticameraspodcast.gmail.com If they want to reach me directly Yeah and you can email us at Thepinballshow at gmail.com Yeah it's 4096 by 2160 How about that Almost 4100 Let's see Oh yeah Straight down the middle is what I do The YouTube video series Go like, follow, subscribe there The Pinball Show If you haven't done the Facebook thing Please do that Or the Instagram Or the YouTube especially If you're watching here Please click like, follow A little low I'd like to see more subscribers on the Pinball Show Share it too You never know when you share this video on your social medias When we may randomly give away cool shit You just never know The sponsor of this wonderful and terrific show with none other than Flip-N-Out Pinball. When I buy my pinball, then I buy from Flip-N-Out. From Shoppers to Playserios, I've got it. Flip-N-Out, Flip-N-Out, Flip-N-Out. When I take a pinball, I take Flip-N-Out. Flip-N-Out, Flip-N-Out. When I buy, buy, buy, I buy from Flip-N-Out.
    116:59
    Product showcase this week is Star Wars, Fall of the Empire, of course it is. We do have Ellie's spots, so snag one of those up. They could be shipping this week. Don't you want a blue AT-AT powder-coated, beautiful Ellie Hoth art package?
    117:14
    Yeah. Harry Potter. Training up is, and we'll probably do it, is the Elwynn effect. Right now, after every release, you get that bump. We get a bump in Jaws, bump in Godzilla sales, but also a bump in Harry Potter. And Dune. Dune coming out of the woods. I still get Dune orders like at least one a week. It's crazy. I'm like, oh, look at that.
    117:41
    So, yeah, it's making its rounds. King Kong, Pro, Premium, LA, Jaws, 50th anniversary. The little engine that could. Damn, that thing may sell more 50th anniversary premiums than original Jaws premiums, which is crazy talk. But, yeah, last run is in December, so we're taking, and we don't have so many spots for that run. So get on there. Dune. Pre-owned games. Go to the Flippin' Out Pinball Facebook page. I've got five or six more we're uploading today, which is Sunday or Monday. Dungeons & Dragons, Metallica, all of the games. Interested list. If you want to go on an interested list of the next Spooky, the next Jersey Jack, Stern, you name it. Make sure to go listen to the exclusive content, too, as part of the official club membership of the pinball show. So a lot of additional industry info that we discussed there. Vaulted games, accessories, trade-in programs, arcade games, you name it. FlippinOutPinball.com or Zach, Z-A-C-H at Flip, the letter N, out to Pinball.com. Or our team members, Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com or Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com. Ken had to show off yesterday. It was a Saturday. And generally, Saturdays, you know, we're not busting it, but I'm still working a little bit. They are working even though I tell them not to But Greg came in with an order He got an order on a Saturday I came in with an order Kim came in with an order And then he had to show us up Came in with two orders on a Saturday I called him a show off And he smiled Speaking of Kim and Greg They do a podcast called the Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast Episode 8 Just revealed what was it Released last week I think an hour after the Star Wars Fall of the Empire was released, they had an episode getting their first impressions on it. So go listen to that. Follow, like, and subscribe there. Joel, our buddy Joel, at the Flippin' Out YouTube channel. There with all of your gameplay needs and tutorial needs. Joel Tutorials is what we call him. He streamed Medieval Madness Merlin Edition and the Cactus Cannon Remake with the Enhancement Kit. Both of those. He's already done gameplay streams of them over at Flippin' Out Pinball YouTube. Upcoming videos include Jurassic Park tutorial, CCR, Cactus Canyon Revisited Updated Code tutorial, and the Medieval Madness Merlin, or just Medieval Madness tutorial. So go check those out.
    120:12
    Check out Dennis, too. He's going to teach you something. Have you ever heard the tale of Stern Pinball the Wise that is said could control the midichlorians in a pinball machine to such a degree that they could constantly bring back life to the same original trilogy over and over and over and over again.
    120:35
    Ironic. And always practice safe pinball. And I don't care what society tells you. I don't care what social media tells you. Pull that stick out of your ass and stop living this mid life.
    120:52
    Love. You're living. If you're capable of watching this show and listening to this show, you're into pinball, and you have enough money to drop quarters into a location, a game to play, or God forbid you can buy a $7,000 to $20,000 pinball machine, right now, go jerk off. Find some joy in your life. This is greatness if you're capable of all of that. Life is good. Go eat some fucking ice cream. Find love and find joy in your life. This is pinball, baby. We get to celebrate what we love rather than just expecting everything and then beating ourselves up when we get less than that.
    121:31
    That was a good closer. No. No cap. What is this 6-7 shit? I don't even know. That sounds like you're saying 7-up. I don't know.