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Episode 10: Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown with Dan Nikolich

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 19m·analyzed·May 23, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown director shares 16-year growth story and announces Colorado Pinball Pub opening.

Summary

Dan Nikolich, director of Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown, discusses the 16-year history of the event (founded 2003), its growth from 80 games to 300+, community-driven model, and upcoming announcements including the Colorado Pinball Pub bar arcade opening by summer's end. The show features major manufacturer support (Stern, Jersey Jack, American Pinball, Chicago Gaming), diverse programming (tournaments, seminars, workshops), and serves as a regional hub for collectors, operators, and casual players across the Mountain West.

Key Claims

  • Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown was founded in 2003 and will be its 16th year at the upcoming event

    high confidence · Dan Nikolich stated directly: 'this will be its 16th year. We started it in...2003'

  • The show features approximately 300 pinball games queued for the upcoming weekend event

    high confidence · Dan: 'we have about 300 games that are uh queued up for the show this weekend'

  • Colorado has a disproportionately large collector base and home pinball scene compared to surrounding states

    medium confidence · Dan: 'I think there is a disproportionate amount of games in Colorado... there are a lot of collectors here and a lot of people that have games in their home'

  • Dan Nikolich operates approximately 25 pinball games on location at one venue near the show, plus 12-15 games in home collection

    high confidence · Dan: 'I have a couple of locations around town. One of them has about 25 games at it... and then in my home collection, I probably at any one time have maybe 12 to 15 games'

  • Colorado Pinball Pub bar arcade will open by end of summer 2024

    high confidence · Dan: 'we're going to be opening our own place up pretty soon called the Colorado Pinball Pub... Our target is by the end of summer'

  • Celebrity Sports Center, a Disney-owned 75,000 sq ft bowling/arcade facility that closed in the 1990s, may have contributed to Colorado's strong pinball culture

    medium confidence · Dan discussing regional history: 'I know Celebrity Sports Center might've been part of that... opened by Disney in the 60s... ended up closing up in the 90s'

  • Manufacturers increasingly favor direct streaming and Comic-Con style announcements over festival launches

    medium confidence · Dan speculating: 'they just have such a great audience that they can hit now with like Comic-Con and some of those really massive events'

  • Game Exchange is the local Stern distributor for Colorado and major supporter of the show

Notable Quotes

  • “The community is really what makes the show special because they are the kind of the heart of the show. They bring games, they do things, they set up things, they help us with ideas.”

    Dan Nikolich @ ~8:30 — Core philosophy of the event — community-driven rather than manufacturer-centric

  • “We were around in 2003 when there was only Stern, and pinball was always one game away from being all done... I think that this is a great time right now in the industry.”

    Dan Nikolich @ ~35:00 — Context on pinball's near-death in early 2000s and current industry health relative to manufacturer competition

  • “I think 10 years from now, I don't think we're done on the top of the pile yet. I think we're probably, I see pinball is going to keep growing for at least another five, six years before, you know, unless we have some sort of terrible economic downturn.”

    Dan Nikolich @ ~52:00 — Bullish long-term outlook on pinball industry growth despite near-term economic risks

  • “It's my favorite part of the show is we'll have kids that come up that used to come to the show as, you know, seven to 10 year olds and their parents brought them. And they come back now as adults because they love pinball.”

    Dan Nikolich @ ~38:00 — Success metric tied to generational engagement and pipeline development for pinball

  • “There is a pathology involved in this sort of devotion.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~63:00 — Humorous observation about Dan's multi-faceted roles (show organizer, operator, collector, builder) reflecting broader pinball community identity

  • “We're marketing specifically to the public that enjoy pinball. So we have thousands of people that are there to play pinball. So what better place to put your pinball machine out and have people play it than festivals like that?”

    Dan Nikolich @ ~28:00 — Explanation of why manufacturers still value festival presence despite move toward independent launches

  • “I have quite a few games, but I also have some games on location, too. So part of my other craziness is I operate some games out, kind of a hobby operator.”

Entities

Dan NikolichpersonRocky Mountain Pinball ShowdowneventScott LarsonpersonGame ExchangecompanyStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySteve Ritchieperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown 16th year event featuring 300 games, major manufacturer attendance, venue expansion to nearly double previous space, new programming (EM workshop, escape room, 20+ seminars)

    high · Dan detailed new features, space expansion, and game count directly; scheduled for weekend with Willy Wonka and Black Knight LE debuts

  • ?

    venue_signal: Colorado Pinball Pub bar arcade announced, targeting end-of-summer 2024 opening, located in Colorado area near existing venue with 25 games on location

    high · Dan: 'we're going to be announcing at the pinball show that we're going to be opening our own place up pretty soon called the Colorado Pinball Pub... Our target is by the end of summer'

  • ?

    community_signal: Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown successfully converting child attendees (7-10 yo) from early years into adult pinball enthusiasts, creating pipeline of new players

    high · Dan: 'kids that come up that used to come to the show as seven to 10 year olds... come back now as adults because they love pinball'

  • $

    market_signal: Colorado has unusually high concentration of home pinball collectors and machines relative to surrounding states (Wyoming, Utah, Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, New Mexico, Arizona)

    medium · Dan: 'I think there is a disproportionate amount of games in Colorado... there are a lot of collectors here'; host notes frequent Denver-area Wizard of Oz machines on market

  • ?

    business_signal: Manufacturers increasingly shifting from festival launches to independent announcements (e.g., Stern teasing Black Knight Monday after Texas show, Jersey Jack Wonka on Tuesday), suggesting shift from festivals as primary announcement venues

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.239

0:00
Hey, thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode 10. That is right. We have hit double digits. I know that's very small, but it's almost six months that we've been going. My co-captain, as usual, is with me. Scott Larson. And who else do we got with us today, Scott? Well, we have the director of the Rocky Mountain Pinball Showcase. We have Dan Nikolic. How are you doing today, Dan? I'm doing well, thanks. How are you guys doing? You know what? It's actually been a long day, a long weekend, and I actually just watched about four hours of pinball streaming, so I feel like it's a marathon pinball day.
0:48
Nice. I want to know what sleep is again. For those that don't know, Dan, my wife had twins. so yes i highly mention that uh i'm sure you'll be sleeping next year yes correct so i'm already looking forward to next year year two is when they start playing together and then you can sleep so yes but yeah but enough about me let's talk about our our wonderful guests that decided to come on with us um why don't you tell us about uh rocky mountain pinball show there dan um well this this will be its 16th year. We started it in, it used to be in April, but snow ended up being a problem for us more than one year. So we kind of moved it back a little. Although today it is currently snowing in Denver and the show is like four days away. So we're not like got to move it to July to make sure that we don't get snow. We've been doing it. We have a great community and it's been expanding for the last 16 years. The community is really what makes the show special because they are the kind of the heart of the show. They bring games, they do things, they set up things, they help us with ideas. And we're a family run affair. So we've been doing this for a while. And hopefully we get bigger and better every year. so dan what what inspired you to start this i it's uh it's 16 years ago it's 2003 lord of the rings simpsons come out but really video games have kind of taken over at that point and we're only down to one manufacturer why did you say hey i want to start a pinball show so i i grew up in vegas and uh i actually worked at the mgm arcade in high school for a little bit fixing video games and some pinball. We didn't have much pinball at the time. So that would have been like the 90s, kind of still the second heyday of video games and a little bit of pinball.

high confidence · Dan: 'Colorado has one of the largest turn distributors in the country that is local here so Game Exchange is our local distributor'

Dan Nikolich @ ~61:00 — Reveals Dan's dual operator/collector role; shows scale is beyond typical hobbyist (25 games on location)

  • “We have an EM workshop that's happening all weekend where you can go and take classes and learn how to fix games and read schematics and do all of that.”

    Dan Nikolich @ ~72:00 — Programming shows shift toward technical education and restoration skills — meeting growing restorer interest

    • Joe Balcer
    person
    American Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gamingcompany
    David Thielperson
    [name withheld pending review]person
    Scott Wickbergperson
    Blizzard Mountaincompany/venue
    Colorado Pinball Pubproduct/venue
    Celebrity Sports Centervenue
    [name withheld pending review]event
    LoserKid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Dennis (Eclectic Gamers)person
    Jeffperson
    Donperson

    medium · Dan: 'manufacturers started popping up... I'm not sure why Stern chose to not launch Black Knight at Texas... maybe easier for them to control how it gets out there'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown requires year-round preparation: post-show feedback cycle, intensive planning beginning 6 months out, 2-3 times weekly work in final 6 months, crunch period immediately before event

    high · Dan: 'we start right after the last show... really we start hardcore doing work about six months out... at least every two three days a week'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Pinball experiencing expansion phase with multiple new manufacturers entering market (post-2019), shows growing attendance, location pinball revitalization; contrasts with 2003 single-manufacturer environment

    high · Dan: 'We were around in 2003 when there was only Stern... now there's tons of options, something for everyone... manufacturers started popping up... shows exploded'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Virtual pinball machines (Scott Wickberg's Harry Potter and Stranger Things) integrated into major physical shows, indicating acceptance of digital pinball as complementary format

    medium · Dan: 'Scott will be one of our speakers... we will have Harry Potter available to play his virtual version on the floor... probably three or four different virtual pinball machines'

  • ?

    product_launch: Jersey Jack Willy Wonka and Stern Black Knight LE confirmed available for play at Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown; both arriving Friday for setup

    high · Dan: 'we will definitely have a Willy Wonka pinball. It's already here in town, ready to go... we'll also have a black knight sort of rage limited... one of the first places to get those'

  • ?

    content_signal: Show expanded programming to 20+ seminars covering technical repair, strategy, industry figures; hourly seminars Saturday noon through Sunday 10 PM, plus additional Monday seminars

    high · Dan: 'seminars. We have a seminar every hour from 12 o'clock on Saturday until 10 o'clock Sunday night... like 20 plus seminars over the weekend'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Dan Nikolich's operation (25 games on location + 12-15 home collection) represents substantial professional operator scale masked as 'hobby operator,' indicating fluidity between collector and operator identities

    high · Host commentary: 'I don't think a hobby operator with 25 games on location really qualifies as a hobby operator'; Dan operates venues with maintenance contact info on machines

  • ?

    historical_signal: Celebrity Sports Center (Disney-owned bowling/arcade facility, 1960s-1990s) possibly shaped Colorado's regional pinball culture, with legacy still remembered by current generation of players

    low · Dan: 'People today still will come to the pinball show and they'll go, you remember celebrity sports?'; noted as potential cultural anchor for regional pinball density

    • 2:56
    And then I came up here, went to college, graduated from college and bought a pinball machine. I was just going to buy one, right, for my house. That's what we all say. And no one ever buys one. No. Yeah. No. Never happened. And so then I bought one game and I started fixing them. I met a few people around. I like to tinker and fix games. So within probably six months of buying that first game, I thought, you know, we should do a pinball show. That would be fun. And so I asked my wife, I was like, let's put together a pinball show. She's like, what would that be? And I was like, well, we'll just have a bunch of games and we'll have some vendors and we'll have people come in and have a good time, maybe run tournaments and things and hopefully not lose our house in the process.
    3:47
    And she was in in that first year. We had about 80 games and a couple hundred people that showed up. And from there, it's just gotten bigger as pinball has exploded.
    4:01
    Nice. Yes. Well, one of my questions for you, Dan, is so Utah's kind of still a new blossoming scene, but I live kind of right on the border of Utah and Colorado, and I've noticed that the scene is more well established in Colorado. Was it that established back in 2003 or was it like what's caused this explosion of pinball in Colorado? Do you know? I think Colorado has always had a pretty good pinball scene here, even before I started. At the same time we started the show, Lions Classic Pinball has been around right about the same time frame as we started. There were a couple of places to play pinball. I remember a tournament that was local here that maybe had like six games, but there wasn't a ton of pinball around. it just started growing a little more each year and more people had games. I think there is a disproportionate amount of games in Colorado. I'm not sure why, but there are a lot of collectors here and a lot of people that have games in their home. So I'm not sure why it got big here, but I know Celebrity Sports Center might've been part of that too. If you guys don't know what that is, that was like a Disney bowling alley slash, It was just massive. It was like 75,000 square foot facility, kind of like a family fun center with hundreds of lanes and tons of pinball and skeeball and all that. And it was opened by Disney in the 60s and that ended up closing up in the 90s.
    5:42
    So I don't know. I think that might have had something to do with it. People today still will come to the pinball show and they'll go, you remember celebrity sports? and I was like, I lived in Vegas. I don't, but I've heard a lot about it. So if you guys Google it, it's kind of an interesting place. It was owned by like, uh, I think a couple of the guys in the rat pack were investors and it was just a really unique thing.
    6:08
    That is way cool. Like I never even heard of that. And that's funny that like you never knew what it was, but now obviously you've got quite the history on it because you've had to hear about it every year for the last 16 years at least. Yep. exactly so i have a question when you're trying to get people to come to the show um and this was actually on the uh we were looking at some streaming tonight and we were actually looking at october fest and um there were a few pinball podcasters well a lot actually in there and um so we were bouncing ideas off each other and i posed the question hey i'm talking to an event organizer? What are the things that you've always wanted to ask an event organizer? Because a lot of times we interview either people from the industry or someone trying to sell things, but this is an interesting way of looking at it. So when you're trying to go for an event, who do you shoot for? Do you shoot for the hardcore fans or do you figure, hey, I've got the hard cores, how can I bring in the casual player? What is your focus when you're trying to organize this? So our goal is to be everything pinball. Our goal is to have every person in the community, whether you like to restore games, play games, tournament players, whether you like to just play, art, science, repair, whatever it is, we want you to be there. And that's the same with families. We spend a large chunk of our time trying to bring new people to pinball. Our goal is to bring everybody in the Rocky Mountain region together for one weekend a year, every location. And we also look at like the other states like Utah and the Dakotas and Nebraska, Kansas, New Mexico, Arizona, all around us, Wyoming, as part of our community, too. So we try to do whatever we can to support those people as well. So we, you know, leagues, tournaments, whatever it is, we want to bring new families into pinball. And that's our our goal is to grow pinball to the masses.
    8:30
    Um, so we kind of have that and we do different aspects to try to keep people happy. Some people come to enjoy playing the game. Some people come to talk to their friends, uh, that they don't get to see every, but every once in a while. And, uh, some people like video games, some people like pinball console, whatever that is, we're trying to cater to everyone. Just kind of a tough task sometimes. Oh yeah. Well, and looking at your guest list, it's pretty eclectic. I mean, you've got video gamers and whatnot in here, but I mean, Steve Ritchie from Stern Pinball, you've got Joe Balser with American Pinball, you've got David Thiel, Butch Pill with Jersey Jack. I mean, there's some pretty big names on this list. It's pretty amazing what you guys have put together and where I can only imagine where you started out to what you're at right now.
    9:20
    Yeah, it's interesting when, you know, starting the show a long time ago, It's a fairly small industry, so we just got to know people. And, you know, you would just call up people at Stern, who was the only one at the time. And then Jack, we actually used to buy games from Jack for the tournaments a long time ago before he started Jersey Jack Pinball. So he was the largest Stern distributor in the country. um so you know you just build relationships over time and they've kind of become like our second family very cool so i i have a follow-up question to that um and i i've i i guess i've argued on this on past episodes and and maybe ranted a little bit but it seems that um it seems that manufacturers are using the festivals less as their announcement platform. Hey, we're revealing a big game that's coming up. And we saw this with Texas, where Texas came up and neither Stern nor Jersey Jack really released anything new. They released Yellow Book Road, but it wasn't a big reveal. And then the next Monday, they teased Black Knight, and they released that on Tuesday. And then two weeks later, Jersey Jack released Wonka. So I'm wondering how much interaction do you get from the manufacturers? Do you still get a lot of support from them, or do you feel that they've just kind of distanced themselves and said, well, we can do this on our own. We can just reveal whenever we want, and we can stream it. I'm just kind of wondering what your take is. You know, it is an interesting thing. I think that a while ago, the shows used to be the place to launch your new game.
    11:22
    I'm not sure why Stern chose to not launch Black Knight at Texas. I don't know if it's just easier for them to to control how it gets out there or, you know, how they want to do their media part. I know Jack did launch at Midwest Gaming Classic, which is a big show. You know, they've got a good 10,000 person attendance. So they they did launch at a pinball slash gaming show. It's a weird deal. I know that originally the manufacturers were very much tied to the shows. And then I think that there are so many shows now that sometimes if they're shooting to sync up with a show or a big show like Texas or Chicago, that maybe schedules don't work out all the time. Or they try to push it and they launch early. And maybe in the past, sometimes they've been burned by trying to launch too early to hit a show.
    12:24
    I know back in the day they used to launch all their games at like AMOA or the operator shows. Now that operating is a little less important and the home market is much larger for them. I'm not really sure why they're not doing that unless they just have such a great audience that they can hit now with like Comic-Con and some of those really massive events that they can do. Okay, so even if maybe they're not revealing or at least there seems to be a trend moving away from revealing at the shows or at least timing it, obviously the two that people think about is Expo and Texas.
    13:06
    However, with that being said, do you still get the same sort of support from them where they're excited to come to? I would say that we're a smaller show out here in Rocky Mountains. There are certainly a lot of other things, and with them competing with so many – or we're competing with so many different venues and different shows, are you still getting the same support from them where it's like, you know what? We may not be releasing something, but we're still going to come out and support you. We're sending X, Y, and Z, and they're obviously sending Steve Ritchie. Do you feel that support, or do you feel that has changed over the years? I mean we're also one of their original shows so we have a long history we have a pretty strong attendance too in comparison to a lot of shows so I think we get good support from them Colorado has one of the largest turn distributors in the country that is local here so Game Exchange is our local distributor and they do a great job of supporting us and making sure that we have new games and Stern. And we've we work with the manufacturers for years. You know, we have relationships with all of them. And they also understand that it's great to get their product out in front of people. Right. They can be able to play it and hopefully be a homeowner or maybe an operator or someone else that gets to play that game for the first time at a large festival where you have a very good captive market. We're marketing specifically to the public that enjoy pinball. So we have thousands of people that are there to play pinball. So what better place to put your pinball machine out and have people play it than festivals like that? Game Exchanges is a pretty big name, too. They probably work pretty closely with you guys. I know that we've worked with them in the past with some of the shows that we have done. And JJ is just, he bends over backwards to help out and get stuff to the shows.
    15:17
    He was telling me the crazy amount of pinball that you guys set up, he's it's like takes over the whole week when you guys do the show just because it's like pinball after pinball coming into the show um they do yeah they're they're pushing right now um we have about 300 games that are uh queued up for the show this weekend and game exchange is a really great supporter they are bringing a ton of games they are bringing everything new that stern has american in Chicago Gaming, and Jersey Jack. So you'll be able to play all their new stuff there. And we have an awesome community here that really supports us and brings all kinds of games. Blizzard Mountain is another big one. They're bringing over 30 games. They actually closed their arcade for like a week to bring their games down to the festival for people to play. and then take all their games back up to their location afterwards. That is absolutely amazing. So my other question, my follow-up question to that is, are you one of the lucky few that actually has a Willy Wonka pinball machine coming from Jersey Jack for the show? Yeah, we will definitely have a Willy Wonka pinball. It's already here in town, ready to go and show up on Friday to get set up.
    16:44
    Nice. That is way cool. we'll also have a black knight sort of rage limited so I think we're one of the first places to get those we work with Stern and JJ to get one at our haunted house pinball tournament that is running at the show as well so that will be there as well as the actual black knight you'll get to see in person I hope it's Steve Ritchie dressed up that would be hilarious see him running around as the black knight give me your money so so my first question was from the special winlet podcast i this one was from dennis from eclectic gamers he asked how do you determine the success in your show and a follow-up question would be, is constant growth a goal?
    17:41
    Yeah, we try to put pinball out in front of as many people as possible. The more pinball that's out there, the better. The more competition, the more manufacturers, it is better for pinball. I mean, we were around in 2003 when there was only Stern, and pinball was always one game away from being all done. So I think that this is a great time right now in the industry. There's tons of options, something for everyone. So we want to kind of get pinball back out in the mainstream so that at the next downturn or things go south, that pinball still survives and lots of people remember it and play it. And kind of the cool part of success for me is now 16 years later, it's my favorite part of the show is we'll have kids that come up that used to come to the show as, you know, seven to 10 year olds and their parents brought them. And they come back now as adults because they love pinball, because that's what they were exposed to when they were little.
    18:48
    So now I want to get this in before I forget. So how do you get tickets? I actually, this is a last entry to me. I decided two weeks ago to come out to the show.
    19:01
    And so I still haven't bought my ticket. What's the best way for people to go and buy tickets? And what is available? What packages do you have?
    19:11
    So you can go to our website, pinballshowdown.com. And we have a couple of different packages. We kind of do some special things for our community that brings games. We have magic hours or bonus hours in the mornings, and then we have a special event at night, which is just for people who bring games. And then we understand that there's some people that are flying in or something like that that maybe can't fit a pinball into their carry-on. So we do offer a limited amount of packages that allow you access to those after hours events and being able to kind of spend some time with those people who kind of love their games out of their basement and out of their garages and got them down to the show So that's the Ultimate Gamer Package. And then we have another one that's the Gamer Package. And then we have weekend and day games too. So we have kind of a price point for everybody. We want to make sure that we're affordable to have families come and bring their kids too. so and do you have a you have a tournament going on too i'm assuming we do we have multiple tournaments all weekend uh we have a regular tournament an open tournament with an a and a b division and then we have a novice only tournament which are for players with an ifpa ranking of 3 000 or lower and then something that's kind of unique to our show is we'll do probably a dozen different tournaments all weekend long that are kind of just casual to get involved with women's tournaments and kids and parent kid and split flipper and zen where one person has a blindfold and the other person flips tells them when to flip so we kind of try to do some fun stuff like that too that's unique so that if you're intimidated that you're not a great player you can still come in and have a good time and i'm assuming all of that is on your website it talks about all the different tournaments and what's available when you're coming in yep it is it's all on our website under the events page and then you just click on tournaments so one of the things i'm looking on your website right now that's intrigued me uh there is a name on here that has made headlines this week with this week in pinball and a couple other uh podcasts and whatnot which is scott wickberg i don't know if you know the answer to this or not, but the reason he's made news this week is because he's made a virtual pinball machine of Harry Potter and there's people freaking out because apparently that's the theme that needs to be made. Do you know if he's bringing the Harry Potter pinball machine or the virtual pin to the show? Yeah, he, uh, Scott will actually be one of our speakers at the show. So I'm sure that he will be speaking about Harry Potter. Um, I believe his seminar is on, Sunday, if I remember right. You'll have to check the schedule to be sure. But he brought his Stranger Things virtual pinball last year and had it available for people to play. So I am sure that we will have Harry Potter available to play his virtual version on the floor. We'll have probably three or four different virtual pinball machines at the show from different collectors. so I'm sure that you guys will be able to try it out very cool I'll send you some pictures Josh yep you're going to have to make me jealous how long does it take to prepare for something like this we start right after the last show so literally the next day the day that the show is over we sit down and go over everything with people that are on our team and collectors, vendors, we're getting information all weekend long. And then we sit down and download all that stuff, write it down, so that we have a good list of what can we do, what are new ideas, what can we make better, how do we change things. And then really we start hardcore doing work about six months out. um we'll start working on it regularly at least every two three days a week um six months easily out dang that sounds like a full-time job it it feels like it sometimes but the reward is definitely worth it right ask me that on tuesday So this is usually crunch time, you know, getting up to it. But, yeah, it's great to be able to see people have a good time and do all the neat things and all the hard work and the long nights and everything. They end up worth it in the end for sure. Cool. How have you seen the pinball, at least the show, change in the last five years? And if you can look forward into the future, what would you anticipate things changing as we go forward? Pinball has been booming, especially the last five years. You know, for a few years there, things were kind of stagnant, I think, everywhere.
    24:37
    And then I don't know what happened, but manufacturers started popping up. You know, people were looking to build games, make games. And the shows exploded at that same time. There's lots more people that are attending the shows. And I think location pinball started getting really great again. I don't know what was the cause and what was the effect, if it was locations or shows or more games, but somehow that combination got working and started working well. I think 10 years from now, I don't think we're done on the top of the pile yet. I think we're probably, I see pinball is going to keep growing for at least another five, six years before, you know, unless we have some sort of terrible economic downturn might hurt us. But otherwise, there are lots and lots of people still getting into pinball.
    25:38
    And I totally agree with that. That's a very good assessment, from my opinion. So I want to know more about you, Dan. What's your favorite pinball machine? What got you into pinball?
    25:51
    what got me in or what's my favorite? Cause both. Okay. So what got me in was the first game I bought, uh, first pinball I bought was a fire. Um, it, it's, it's an okay game. Save my baby. I have a, I have a soft spot for it. Whenever I find one, I buy it. I don't know why, but then I'll find it a home somewhere because I just, it was the first one I got. I drug it out of this basement down in Pueblo. I bought it on eBay. The guy said I had to pay before I picked it up, which should have been the first red flag. So I picked it up, dragged it out of this basement. It's a train wreck. And then I got it going and finally sold it to somebody. But it's got a soft spot for me. And then probably my favorite game is whatever the newest stuff is. It seems to be the thing that I really like. But what I always go back to is I have a Twilight Zone that I really enjoy playing. something about it. I've always wanted one for when I first got into it and I still play mine fairly regularly. No.
    27:02
    Okay. By the way, I also have a friend who's a firefighter who he found out about fire and he said, I'd like to have one of those someday. So whenever you need a home for your next fire project, let me know. I have a neighbor.
    27:17
    Well do I, I'm sure I will find one. They seem to find me. I've owned like seven of them. How many do you have at once versus how many and how often do you rotate your collection?
    27:31
    I have quite a few games, but I also have some games on location, too. So part of my other craziness is I operate some games out, kind of a hobby operator. So I have a couple of locations around town. One of them has about 25 games at it, which is just down the road from the show. And then in my home collection, I probably at any one time have maybe 12 to 15 games set up at my house. Okay. I'm going to point out that I don't think a hobby operator with 25 games on location really qualifies as a hobby operator. I was going to say I would consider myself a hobby operator. had at most two out on location. So 25 is a big leap. So in addition to your full-time job and in addition to your part-time job of organizing this tournament, you also have your cell phone number on all these games around town for them to call and say, hey, there's a ball stuck. Yep, I do.
    28:40
    You know what? There is a pathology involved in this sort of devotion. Yes. It seems to get a little crazier every year. And actually, we're going to be announcing at the pinball show that we're going to be opening our own place up pretty soon called the Colorado Pinball Pub. So there's a scoop for you that we'll be launching that at the show.
    29:07
    We'll be starting construction very soon, getting it started. And kind of our goal is to have a little place to play some games and hang out. Is it going to be like a bar arcade? It will be a bar arcade. Okay.
    29:25
    And when do you think you'll be releasing, you'll be opening that? What's your target date? Our target is by the end of summer.
    29:32
    So we're, like I said, my day job is I do, I build buildings for a living. So that's not the part that scares me is the build out. It's once we get there, then we'll be open all the time. So fun and a little scary.
    29:53
    I think it sounds fantastic. I'm excited to go and check it out. Yep. So also, so this is my first time in a show.
    30:02
    What are the things that you're going to say, wow, you're going to want to do this, this, or you're going to want to buy this and this. These are the things that I'm kind of curious about because I see a lot of people who are trying to find ways of customizing your own games, alternative translights, mods for the games. What are some things that you're saying, you know what, you really want to check this out?
    30:30
    You know, this year we have a ton of new things that we have added to the show since we have so much more space. we almost doubled the space that we had from our last hotel to the new one. So we've been able to add things like we have an escape room at the show. We have more tournaments. We have an EM workshop that's happening all weekend where you can go and take classes and learn how to fix games and read schematics and do all of that. We have a haunted pinball tournament that's happening over the weekend. And then we have over 30 vendors with mods and parts and new games and, you know, anything you could look for that is pinball arcade related in any way.
    31:22
    So I would say that I would try some of the new stuff that we've added and tell us how you like it. And, you know, that'll kind of help us figure out what we should dedicate more of our time and space to. But and then we have seminars. We have a seminar every hour from 12 o'clock on Saturday until 10 o'clock Sunday night. And then we've got another half a dozen or so on Monday. So I think there's like 20 plus seminars over the weekend. So you could spend 20 plus hours listening to different things about how to fix your game. Steve Ritchie, Joe Balser, all of our guests, how to play pinball. We try to do some different things that offer a little bit more of the community aspect and bring other folks into the into the show that may not be the pinball designer or artist, but have their way to contribute back to the show. So kind of like you guys having the Pinball Podcast seminar at the show with Jeff. Well, the other cool thing I've think also, too, speaking of Jeff, is he always talks about he talks very highly in the regard of the show. He's made me excited for a couple of years. It just always seems like it's the wrong time for me to go. And so I've never been able to get out to Denver to see the show. But I've always been excited because he says it's like going back to family. I've always viewed it as one of the better shows. Well, we appreciate that. it's uh we do have an awesome community here they they are kind of what make this show special i think that that is uh the thing that's very unique we have uh a great community that takes real pride in the games that they bring and they uh they're very welcoming to to new people coming in and they'll sit down and hang out with you and um talk whatever whatever it is that your aspect of pinball or your aspect of arcade gaming and, uh, you know, make you feel welcome. Oh yeah. There was even a gentleman last year when I was talking, we were talking over a Spider-Man pinball machine he was selling. I cannot remember his name. I do apologize because he ended up coming to Salt Lake to our show and hanging out. But he, one of, he was one of the ones that said, you need to come to the show. Just come hang out. It's, it's so cool. You got to do it. And I think that's a good sign for a good show when people want to brag about what's in their town. And so I think you guys are on the right track.
    33:54
    Yeah, I mean, we hope so. You'll know pretty soon. You guys, Scott's coming out, so he'll be able to give you the lowdown. He's going to be making me jealous the whole time. I'm going to be feeding babies, and he's going to be sending me pictures. I'm going to be like, this is awesome. I don't know how else to describe it, but yeah. You should look on our website. I think that Don, Don from the Pinball Podcast, the former host, one of the former hosts of the Pinball Podcast, he had their twins. They came out with their twins to the show and had them strapped up with earplugs and headphones on when they were little. That is awesome. I might have to hit Don up and see, get some pointers. So there you go. Next year or in two years, you can bring your kids out.
    34:49
    I know my son wants to come out. And the funny part is every time I'm looking for a Wizard of Oz pinball machine, I'm always looking into Denver area because it seems like one comes up every month.
    34:59
    But, yeah, I'm always looking for Denver area to – like you said, there's a massive amount of pinball machines in the Colorado area from border to border. It's kind of goofy. but um yeah that's what i keep telling my friends i'm like i'm close enough if you ever need something in utah man i can find it for you in colorado so obviously learning how to work on these uh these games um so how do you like how would you start i'm kind of a more of a novice uh i know kind of how to tinker but really just enough to make myself dangerous. I just installed the ColorDMD and Pinnovators, the headphone jacks, into my games, but I swear it takes me about twice as long as it probably should.
    35:50
    Where do you, when someone gets into pinball and they get their own machines, where do you say, hey, by the way, these are the basics that you all have to know, and then you can figure out how to do the other stuff as you get farther along. There doesn't seem to be, there's the Keith fellow in Pinball 101, how to play pinball. But there doesn't seem to be as obvious of a resource for people who say, hey, I just want to learn how to work on my own machines.
    36:18
    Yeah, I think it's getting a little better. There's some great online resources to look at stuff, and you can always YouTube and Google what you need. And at the show, there's an hour seminar on kind of how to get your game show ready. And they go over basics like how to rebuild flippers and how to take apart a pop bumper and how to do some basic repair stuff, how to fix a slingshot, things like that. and uh you know i think that that gets people's feet wet and i think kind of allows them a little bit of hands-on and lets them look at things and touch it feel it so that they're less intimidated working on their own game you know i think that eventually then you can kind of work your way into to board repair try to do some soldering there's an awesome club here called the colorado pinball club that does like a monthly meeting and they they do cool stuff like a few months ago they had like a how to solder uh session that was just probably 40 people that showed up and there was a bunch of scrap boards that uh that they had and you just try to solder things and desolder them and just try to get a little bit of uh time and hands-on work with it well cool i think uh pretty much we're coming up on our 40 minute mark and so we're gonna have to start wrapping things up but is there anything else that you would like to kind of tell us about that maybe we haven't touched on yet dan that people need to know about rocky mountain pinball showdown i don't think so i think we've covered everything really well um there's some great guests some awesome awesome things coming up this weekend we're pretty excited to to show off our new venue we think it's uh People are going to really enjoy it. It's kind of a unique thing. Oh, I didn't talk about we do have a swap meet too. We haven't had one in a long time, but the community kind of got together, and I heard that it's coming along pretty well. So if you have some extra stuff you need to get rid of or you need to pick up some extra things, the swap meet is kind of a new aspect that takes place on Sunday morning that we're trying out this year for the first time in a while. I hope that goes good because that sounds like a cool concept yeah I've actually been on the lookout for some cool like play fields that are no longer usable but are still pretty I'd love to get a few of them so I can put them downstairs in my game room I'm sure that I have to keep an eye out I'll keep an eye out for you too if you're flying out though it might be a big carry on to carry back well that's okay actually there are a few guys who are driving out from Utah that I'm sure I can load them in the back of their car. I don't know if Lee's driving out. He usually drives out with a few games and I can throw it in the back of his. But that's one thing I'm always on the hunt for is finding different things to make my game room fun. I actually just bought a two and a half foot M&M that is staring at me right now. Right now it's in my living room, but it should be down in my game room next to Mario. So I'm always on the Look out for that kind of fun stuff.
    39:38
    Yeah, I think... So you have a two Mario as well Yeah So I found just randomly on like on our either Facebook or there a KSL marketing out here It's just a local news station. That tends to be our list. It's KSL classifieds. And I have no idea what I was searching for, but there was like a two and a half foot Mario statue. It was from a guy who was the manager of media play back in the day, and when the Nintendo 64 came out, that was the display that came out with it. So he's been hauling this thing around for years, and I just looked at it and I said, that is really cool. I'm sure my wife would kill me if I told her I spent $300 on it, but it makes me smile every time I go downstairs. That's super awesome. That would be a cool thing. If you were living in Denver, I'd see if I could convince you to bring it down to the show. That would be super cool to see. Yeah, that would be fun. Well, I know that when I sent it to Jeff Rivera, he said, I get first dibs if you ever sell that.
    40:46
    Well, thank you, Dan. We appreciate you coming on and coming to talk to us about the Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown. I know that Scott is pretty giddy, like a little schoolgirl with his first crush. Schoolboy. Schoolboy, whatever.
    41:00
    But he's excited to come out. I'm excited for him because I'm probably going to get a ton of pictures this weekend. I really wish I could be there. but we do appreciate you coming on. We're going to get this out before the show happens, so that way we can get a little bit of a push and or have something for people to listen to on their flights and drives there. And I will say that I appreciate that there are people who are passionate, who are willing to do these type of shows. In many ways, I'm sure that there's a way of being compensated on some level for what you do. However, I know that the return on investment for doing something like this is far less than what you would make on just working your standard job. And so I appreciate that there are people who are as passionate as you are to keep these things alive because the bottom line is I don't have the time to do something like this. I barely have time to do a pinball podcast. But I want people to know that it is recognized and appreciated that they're willing to kind of take that mountain climb and put on this event for people like me who are willing to come out and see it. And I'm sure that you probably, the complaints always sound louder than the praise, but I just want you to know that I really appreciate what you're doing, and I'm really looking forward to this weekend. Well, thank you. Yeah, I tell everybody the number one thing you can do is tell somebody who brought a game how much you enjoyed playing their game because I think that that is the coolest thing. I think that people that bring their games really enjoy kind of sharing them with everybody and nothing makes their day more than just telling them how much you enjoyed playing their whatever it is or getting to see someone's smiling face when they put their blood, sweat, and tears into their super fun game that they brought out. So make sure when you're there, any pinball show, wherever you're at in the country, Number one, bring a game if you can. Number two, tell the people that bring games thank you.
    43:05
    Sounds good. And I'll certainly hunt you down over the weekend and chat with you a few times. Sounds good. Awesome. I really appreciate you guys having me on. For sure. Yeah, happy to do it. Anytime you want to come on. We are very lowbrow. Whoever wants to come on, we can certainly.
    43:24
    The bottom line is that this is an escape for me. I mean, life is challenging enough with everything that everybody's dealing with, whether or not from family drama or work drama or political drama or religion drama or whatever. And I appreciate that this is something that for me, I can escape from all of that and I don't have to deal with it. And so if there's any way that I can connect with someone on a social level, regardless if they have anything in common with me, I can at least have something in common with pinball. and so if anybody has nothing better to do than to listen to us rant I just appreciate giving them that break and having that opportunity absolutely well thanks again Dan we really appreciate it we'll catch you this weekend alright sounds good thanks guys thanks Dan so we just wrapped it up with Dan what are your takeaways from it there Scott you know what I, it's one of those where I, I understand that it's a pinball is a niche sport or a niche hobby or whatever you want to label it as. Um, it still seems like it's, it's growing, it's healthy. And I think that it's, it's bringing more people, um, to go out of their house. So I, I think these conventions are actually a good opportunity. I think that it's – I think people are tired. I think people are tired of just connecting to their computer or online gaming or whatever. It seems like the way I look at it is that's already been done, and I want to talk with people again. So this is a great opportunity. I'm really excited. Seriously, I – it takes a lot of effort, I know, to take time off and go to a weekend convention. but I really have no idea what to expect.
    45:21
    What's your thoughts? Have you ever been like, we've been to the one here. I was here for two hours when I was on my way out of town last year but I've never really been to a pinball only convention. What are your thoughts? You know, this is one of the shows that has intrigued me before even I knew that Salt Lake Gaming Con existed. I've always wanted to get out to it. I just, I guess I'm a different state in my life to where I can't just to go, I guess. I don't know. And like, I can't remember who else I was talking to, but they were saying it's kind of a bad weekend because it's Memorial Day weekend. Yeah, that was, that was, I had a lot of second thoughts on it because of that. But honestly, I've always, I think it's a good show that would, I think they got all the good games there. And so it would be just as good as – well, maybe not just as good as a Texas pinball or a pinball expo, but it's just right up there with me with those shows. So it's something I've always wanted to try. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's just different. I'm not – I'm curious because I know that right now it seems like everybody is chasing Texas.
    46:29
    However, he's the one who said, well, we've been doing this for a long time, so we still have those relations. And so that makes me really curious to see how they do it, really. Yeah, I totally agree. So I'm excited. I'm excited for you. I really wish I was going this weekend.
    46:48
    Yeah, you're doing something better. Yeah. Well, cool. Let's talk about a couple things. Honestly, there was still a trickle on the news. No biggie there. The thing that I thought was cool was the Harry Potter. so last week sorry before we get into harry potter last week when special one lit was talking about harry potter i started digging and looking for this because it's like there's a harry potter pinball machine and i thought this is really cool and so a lot of people said that um it's probably a fake so don't read much into it and then when it came out this week in pinball this week that it was a virtual pinball machine i still thought that's a cool idea it's um with it being a home project maybe it'll gain a little traction and maybe it'll show the the potential that a harry potter pinball machine could have to jk rowling because i know that she's kind of opposed to pinball machines well i i'm not sure like i've heard that rumor before but i really have no idea where that started or what really um what credibility i'd give to that um just because I mean, come on, they have like there's Harry Potter video games there's Harry Potter, I wouldn't be surprised if I were walking through Vegas and there were like a Harry Potter slot machine and so I don't, I mean she licenses those little jelly beans that taste horrible Berry Bots or whatever it is Yeah, yeah those and she has like a an amusement park section in Universal Studios so So I kind of feel that while people say, oh, she doesn't like pinball, my attitude is it's probably just not a big enough player. And she is the wealthiest woman in England. Did you know that? I didn't know that. She has stupid money.
    48:43
    And for her to even – it's kind of like the – we talk about the Beatles pinball license, right? Yeah. And it's the most expensive. It's the first seven-digit one. Okay, it's a million dollars. That means nothing to her. Literally, a million dollars means nothing to her because she's made so much money on this stuff. I just think it's probably not on her radar. And so until it becomes on her radar, I just don't see it being a big deal. I agree. Is it possible? Is it possible that she has some vendetta against pinball? Maybe. but I think we're overestimating what people, non pinball people think about pinball. Cause when, when I tell people that I'm, I'm into pinball, they always say the same thing. Oh really? That's cool. Do they still make those? Yep. Exactly. Every time. And so like, I guarantee she is not this anti pinball. Okay. This is me just thinking we're not even on her radar. She doesn't even care about pinball.
    49:45
    Well, and here's the thing too about Harry Potter pinball machine. As much as I would love to have a physical made Harry Potter pinball machine, it scares the living daylights out of me to have one made. And the reason being is there's so much material there between all eight movies, seven books, everything. Like even when I saw this virtual pinball machine layout for the first time, I kind of looked at it and went, huh, they're only going with Goblet of Fire? That's not really my favorite book. You know what I'm saying? Oh, that is my favorite book. like that's where like after that harry potter died for me like that was where it was like okay this is not going the direction i want and um she got pissed and killed everybody um so goblet of fire i'm like that is the best book so it is really good don't get me wrong i do really enjoy it but it's like what do you do there's seven books do you pick one do you try to put all seven into one pinball machine there's just so much there just kind of like with willy wonka Willy Wonka was such a theme that's been wanted for so many years that that first night when it was showed, there were so many mixed reviews because I think people's expectations were just through the roof. And so when they saw it, they're like, that's it. And so I'm really fearful. I'm not saying that it wouldn't sell well. I really think a Harry Potter pinball machine would do excellent no matter how they made it. I mean, look at Star Wars. us as a pinball community is like. It's very, very polarizing in the community, but it sells well for operators. It does great on Coindrop. It does really great for vendors when they're selling it to distributors and stuff like that. So I just, I think that, I don't know, Harry Potter would sell great. I just, my worry is it would not live up to the expectation that everyone has presented. Yeah. My thought is, I thought Star Wars was, I thought that was okay. It was a fun game. It didn't scratch the itch that I wanted for a Star Wars machine. But in many ways, I think that we elevate our dream themes to a ridiculous level. I think everyone wants the dream thing to be Lord of the Rings because Lord of the Rings is basically that Holy Grail, where it is that theme that a lot of people like. And the pen was done so well and the rules were so well incorporated that I think it scratched that itch. And so people expect every time there's a dream thing, it has to be Lord of the Rings. I agree. The bottom line is it just doesn't happen. Lord of the Rings was an anomaly. I mean, do you really think that the Iron Man machine is the dream theme integration for Iron Man? Oh, no. I mean, it's a fun game. I love it. I have the game. But the Avengers, the Avengers was, you know, it wasn't okay. It wasn't okay. It was kind of a miss, I think, that some people thought it was clunky. But it didn't have that Lord of the Rings feel. But, okay, so let's just say Lord of the Rings.
    52:55
    Name me one other dream theme that has hit that status. Wizard of Oz? I really don't know. Is Wizard of Oz a dream theme for anybody but Jack? I don't really think it was, but now that they've presented it, that's the thing about it. No one wanted it, but it did really well at meeting expectations because no one dreamt about what it could have been. Yeah, and so I think that we have this unrealistic standard for – I guess the only other game that I would say, yes, that has a perfect theme integration would be Simpsons Pinball Party. And that's very polarizing. Some people love that game. Some people hate it. But guess what? Tron is not that deep of a rule set. It's a fun game to play, and it has good music. but really if you're gonna say yeah that's a dream integration then i think you're missing the point it's a very simple game and i have a great i have a beautiful tron but i i don't think it's this it's certainly not the same level as lord of the rings so i think for someone to expect harry potter to be the second coming of lord of the rings i think that's unreasonable i agree well and who knows they might grab it and knock it out of the park i just i think it's no matter any way you slice it it's been so hyped for so long that if it does come out um there's going to be a lot of polarizing comments so um i i do not envy the people that actually get that pinball license because it's gonna be a rough one it really is yeah and i guess you know what i i would say the the second like a theme integration that by far exceeded expectations would be jersey jack powers of the caribbean yeah and that that coding is crazy in that game it is so deep and it is probably the best theme integration and code integration and everything with the game and even operating under modern constraints with a licensor which just seems mind-blowingly hard and what uh what jersey jack and eric and joe cass and everybody was able to put into that machine is mind-blowing so and i i think that's why people keep saying if if harry potter does get done they want him to be done by jersey jack because there's a common theme yeah um and obviously if you want something quick efficient and and to the point that's going to be stern um but i i think that you know that's the reason why people would like that to be done by jjp totally agree so moving on we uh got to join and hang out with it seemed like all the podcast celebrities tonight we were there with special and lit they were doing their monday night stream of october fest so if you don't know this zach many bought up flipping it out pinball and he then decided to start streaming the most recent release of pinball machine that they could get their hands on. And so he was trying to find people to stream it. And Ben, uh, Bill and Ken of special one, let's like, we can do it. No problem. So they've been doing this. This is our second night. They've been doing this. You were in the chat with us. What'd you think there, Scott? Well, one, okay. By the way, I was really blown away that we were even invited. I legitimately, I got it. Because this was the Special Winlet podcast. It was their Facebook post. And they had tagged a lot of these other podcasters. But just to be neat, I'm looking at it right now because I sent a screenshot to Josh. And I said, this is kind of crazy. So This Week in Pinball, Slap Save Pinball, Collect the Gamers, Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, Mrs. Pin's Pinball Podcast, Pinball Nerds Podcast, Pin Stadium. And all of these people were there. And even Lloyd shows up from SS Billiards, which I don't know if anybody has not heard of Lloyd. But if you have any tech question, he's one of the first guys that always jumps on and says, hey, by the way, do this. I told Lloyd that I want him living next to my man cave so he can fix all my games. But it was just such a crazy thing that everybody said, yeah, sure. Why not? Let's just hop on. And I'm sure there's other people that they may have tagged. That's just off the top of my screen grab that I saw. But so two things that were interesting. One, they were playing Oktoberfest.
    57:39
    Two, everybody was really – it was almost like a – it was like a reunion almost where everybody was like, hey, I don't know who you are, but I know you because I listen to your podcast. the podcasting it's so inbred in that we all listen to each other and we all kind of promote each other and really okay here's my take anybody who's willing to spend any ounce of their time doing this because no one's making money on it this is a hobby and so the fact that anybody is out there doing this God bless them and I think that everybody realizes, look, this is just everybody just wants to do this because it's their hobby. It's their escape. So one, I love that there was no drama and everybody was just getting together and looking at a game and then everyone was making comments. Huh, this is interesting. This is what I saw in the game. So that being said, my first take on Houdini. One, I love that wire form on the right side. Houdini or Oktoberfest? On Oktoberfest, excuse me. did I say Houdini? maybe I did you said Houdini yeah I meant Hogtoberfest that wire form on the right side looks awesome and really what it reminds me of is you know those you see those YouTube videos where it's a ball that goes up it's the kinematic machines and they're going through and they go up and down and it just does fun visual things and I love that in games really when I wanted to buy my first pinball machine the only thing I thought of is, I want one of those games that have one of those wire things that the ball goes everywhere. Yeah. And again, not really a high bar, but that's what I was thinking. And so, you know, there's a few games that really do that. You know, Star Trek The Next Generation has a lot of those cool wire forms They just fun to watch And I was really impressed with how it flowed It really looked like the second coming of belly Williams and basically take a belly Williams thing from the nineties and put a LCD screen in. Yeah. That's what it looked like to me. What'd you think? I've really been intrigued. So when I first heard of Oktoberfest, okay. When it was first rumored, I'm like, okay, this is a joke. Like seriously, who does Oktoberfest? And then the couple months later it's like they're doing octoberfest and i thought okay now this is a joke like you you can't do octoberfest as a pinball machine but they have switched my mindset on it seeing this pinball machine i think because they originally say joe balser originally wanted to do i can't remember what game it was but he was working for sega at the time as his octoberfest and he just wanted to do this theme forever. I think this goes to the fact that when someone has a passion project, they can do it right. And so I might not be huge on the Oktoberfest theme, but the game looks like a hoot. It really, I agree with you. It looks like the second coming of Bally Williams. I want to get my hands on this game and just enjoy it. It looks like there's so much fun and in-depth there.
    60:54
    I agree with you. The wire forms are something enjoyable to see, and I don't think it would be one of those things you get tired of or you might just start ignoring it but it's not something you be like i hate that this is in here now um it looks great i don't like the artwork that's still me i think the play field's a little too busy but that's just me i think it's perfect i think it's a perfect location game i'm not sure how many home games they'll sell but considering that the second coming of location pinball, it's going into restaurants and bars.
    61:28
    And so this is a theme that I think really would work well. I'm excited to play it. Um, it's again, because I'm very selective of the things I bring into my house. I wouldn't bring into my house, but I, you know, again, I don't think every, uh, theme has to go into a house. I think that it needs to be available for many different locations out there. And I think this is the perfect game that hey, if I had a restaurant slash bar, I would say, buy that. Put it in there. See what happens. Yep. I think we're even getting one here in Utah here soon. It's even Dan Newman. I can't remember, but someone is buying this machine to put out on location. So we will be seeing it soon. I'll go play it. I'll go play it. It looks fun.
    62:12
    I really give props to Zach and Bill and Ken, I know that these streams aren't easy. I know that they're taking extra time to go grab it. I know that like Bill and Ken get an incentive out of it because they get to play the new machine and pretty much get to rent it without, they just, they got to do work instead of paying for it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But they're still paying for it. Like, okay. But I, I, I totally said, Hey, fine. If you need a location tester, send it up to Utah. I'm your guy. But I mean, that's a little dismissive. Yes. You know, they're still not making any money off it. There can be some benefits from it. I know the Buffalo guys have been able to get like a JJP loaner. But still that is nothing compared to what they could make by just working their job. Well, and now that Zach owns flipping out, he might get some, a little, a little incentive. People might get turned, turned on by buying it now. You know what I'm saying? It's free advertising. And so, you know, it's a, it's a game that is being streamed. And I think it was really smart to invite other podcasters because we're talking about it. So I think that was a great move. And you know what? I thought it was nice because it was a good way of bouncing ideas off. But, yes, I actually thought it looked a lot of fun. I agree. Well, moving on to our last topic of the evening, we've got to go over. I set the poll for like two weeks because I figured we wouldn't be recording until next week. but because we had the interview come up, we're going to record this week, probably skip next week, and then go the week after, and the poll will definitely be done by then. But if you did not listen on episode number nine, we talked about music pins and a theme that we'd like to see become a pinball machine.
    63:58
    And I was so adamant that the Aquabats would make a good theme integration into a pinball machine that we took it to a poll. And this is what my hope was. before we start getting into this, because I know exactly what you're going to say, but before we get into this, I never said that Stern should go out and buy this license. I didn't say that Jersey Jack should be buying this license. I think this license would integrate really well into pinball. There's some themes that you're just like, I don't see it happening.
    64:28
    My thought process was that people would look at it and go, yes, it would either integrate well, or B, I've never heard of this, so I'm going to go check it out and formulate my own opinion. I never thought it would be C of I've never heard of this, so it would make a crappy theme.
    64:46
    Okay. However, okay, what did the pinball community tell you, Josh? Okay. So the pinball community, I got 15% of yeses. It was really close on Facebook, but I decided to go on Pinside because I don't know why. It's Pinside. but pin side it was like 63 63 votes no and six votes yes but here's the stupid thing to me and yes hold on this is what's stupid to me don't vote no because someone says well obviously this theme and this theme should be made before aquabats that wasn't the point of my conversation the point of it was it should integrate well into the machine you know what i'm saying okay okay Okay, here's the thing I don't understand, though. There's you, your wife, your son, and your two new twins. So that's five votes. I don't know who the sixth one is. No, I'm going to do some shout-outs right now because, no, there was plenty of votes. I think even Dr. Pin of Mrs. Pin Pinball Podcast. Right.
    65:58
    Who's my spirit animal because he is one of my spirit animals because he's also an anesthesiologist who plays pinball. See, he said it would make a great theme. He said he'd prefer there's a couple other ska bands he'd prefer over them, but he does think that it would integrate well. So Yancey Blaylock, thank you for voting yes. Greg Tripp, thank you. Matthew Montgomery, Lucas Wade Mueller, I really appreciate it. And to everybody else who sided with me, I'd like to thank you. The list is too long, so I can't put them all out. Well, and we don't know who the other ones are besides Dennis Creasel, which, by the way, Dennis Creasel proved my point that he had never heard of the Aquabats, so he just assumed it would be a bad thing. He even said, he's like, I've never heard of it. I'm not going to look him up. It's a terrible thing. Get over it. And I'm like, he was pretty brutal, like he really was, which is fine. That's Dennis for you. But that's the thing, though. I was asking for people to, if you've never heard of them, go check them out, then formulate an opinion. You know what I'm saying? Your public service announcement is noted. Thank you. I appreciate that. So I'm going to dismiss all your no's because a lot of them were done out of ignorance.
    67:09
    Okay. Now, that being said, so this is the poll question that I want to extend this week. Okay. And so at least when you want to finally give up on this ridiculous crusade that you have on getting the Aquabats pinball machine done. what I want to know is of the pinball community are you interested in going to a show? okay, yeah because I think that there's so many people in the community and I don't know if you want to do a follow up question on are you interested in going to a show or what would you be interested maybe there's so many different ways to do it but I just want a yes no answer if you play pinball Are you interested in going to a show?
    67:57
    Okay. Yeah. I'll throw it up there. We'll do it. I want to do one more thing. This is the realization I came to after we did this poll.
    68:09
    There's a lot of old people in pinball. I thought a band that was around for almost 30 years would have a little weight under them. But no. There's a lot of people that have never even heard of these guys. Okay. Okay, so I'll admit, I'm kind of in the dense, creasel camp. So I thought the Aquabats were like a cover band.
    68:31
    Are they not? No, they're not. No. Oh, see, I thought that was like one of those, you know, there are bands that go around that do like fun versions of old songs. So that's what I thought the Aquabats were. I'll send you some stuff. You know what? next time they come to Salt Lake, which is going to be in September, I will buy you and your son some tickets and we will all go.
    68:56
    Okay. I'm really curious now because I seriously thought this was just like a, it was a made up cover band, like Spinal Tap who plays like, you know, who plays like Duran Duran or a whole bunch of party music. That's what I thought it was. Well, maybe what's funny to me is someone mentioned on Pinstine, but like, that's not the, isn't that the Wiggles? I'm like, What? No, it's not the Wiggles. Okay. Actually, the Wiggles would probably make a great pinball machine for, I don't know, for three-year-olds to five-year-olds. Probably. But my point being is themes right now that are being made are themes that were necessarily appealed to people that grew up 60s, 70s, and 80s. Yes, it's all the rock stars that are in their 60s now. Correct. And yeah, no, absolutely. All, all the stuff. And, and that's why they, they really need to start looking at different ways and maybe, uh, you know, Hey, go where the money is. And so, um, if they need to make, uh, you know, a four pinball machine, or if they need to make an iron Spider-Man pinball machine, or if there's all these other, um, like Marvel superhero, um, things that they can make, uh, since they've run out of a greasy or 60 year old rock stars. go there. But I would also just love to see I would love a good Mario pinball machine. I would love a good Zelda pinball machine. I'd love it like all these Nintendo they're ready for market. Obviously Nintendo does a really great job and they have licensed them before. But who knows maybe it's such a niche market that there's not enough crossover and since Stern only releases three to four games a year as opposed to 12 that they used to, maybe it's just not worth them taking a risk on it. But I actually think if you wanted to get into the home market, I think that you would sell a billion like Super Mario Brothers pinball machines. I agree. If done right, you could definitely get a lot out there. So my point being is a lot of these people, so if you take 60s, 70s, 80s, That's people anywhere from their mid range of forties, fifties and sixties. That's people that have, I don't want to say disposable income, but they're probably a little bit more set in life versus I'm 31 going on 32. I'm, I've got an early family, you know what I'm saying? And so I bet in 10 years, cause I really got thinking about this. Are there bands from the nineties and the two thousands that anyone would agree upon that would make a good band, a good music theme. And the only, The only ones I could really think of is Nirvana.
    71:43
    You might get some yeses to that. Yeah, I don't think Nirvana would ever license. Maybe Foo Fighters would do it. Foo Fighters was another one I thought of. Linkin Park.
    71:56
    And I know that's the thing is a lot of people right now would agree with almost any 80s band would be a good pinball machine. And I don't discount that. I really think a lot of these 80s bands are doing really good as pinball machines. but I think in 10 years from now, if the hobby is going as strong as it is now, and we start getting more of those people into pinball in that age range with a disposable income, you will start hearing more of Nirvana, Lincoln park, red hot chili peppers, rage against the machine. I would even go as far as like slip knot or, um,
    72:30
    maybe some of those bigger bands from the late nineties, early two thousands green day. maybe um i i think that i mean this is kind of a the thing that's made um pinball um relevant again is the same thing that made bands irrelevant and it's basically the uh the rise of uh of the internet the online community and so people didn't have these mega bands you know you would have these bands that once they made it big, they were big, but now, and there's no, there's no barrier to entry like there used to be. And so you can have all these niche bands and it's the same thing as like having a niche hobby, like pinball. Like you can find a community, even if it's a small community, just with the online, um, you know, the online interface. And I don't know if, because all those bands in the nineties and going into 2000, that's really the rise of the internet. And this is the rise of instant gratification. People can get exactly what they want. They're no longer pre-programmed into, well, this is what record producers think is good. And so there will never be another Michael Jackson. There will never be another Madonna because there's so much dilution. Now, who knows? Maybe there are artists that are just as talented now, Bruno Mars, Taylor Swift, whatever. But I just don't think that they have the same cultural impact. The NBA finals are going on right now, and it's on cable. Yeah. Or not the finals. Excuse me, the playoffs. The finals are coming up. But I haven't watched a game yet because if I don't like what's on the channel, I can turn it to 900 other channels. When I was a kid, there were three channels. There were three channels, and then Fox was the outlier, and then there was PBS.
    74:29
    And so unless you had cable TV, which had like 20 channels, but nothing was really on cable TV because it just wasn't as profitable. So the way that everything is so divided now for our attention, I don't think there's any of those mega bands out there. Well, and I think also, I don't know if you've ever seen this documentary, but there's a documentary about, it's called Before the Music Dies. And it's got industry vets. They talk a lot to like Dave Matthews from the Dave Matthews Band. They talk to a couple different people. And the point that they make, because like you even kind of talked about this in the last episode, in the 90s, Napster became big, you could just download music. Yeah, free. And so bands used to be like the Beatles. You grew up with the Beatles. They evolved as they became a band. Same with Aerosmith. Same with Journey. But the problem is now when we had that turnover in the 90s when music became free, artists started figuring out we'll start recording our music for free or not for free. So we'll record it. We'll put it out there for free or very cheap. and then we'll make money off of the merchandise. Yeah, or touring. Yeah, because I went to a Metallica concert and Metallica had like, you know, there are these t-shirts that you can probably buy for 20 bucks, but they were selling them for 40. And then they gave away the recording of the music. You know, you could download it. I never actually did on that one, but you could record it. So it's, yeah, I don't know. I just think that there's so much competing for our attention that no one listens to the same album over and over again like they did when I was a kid. Well, and honestly, the record labels nowadays are just trying to find that one-hit wonder. Yeah, they're just trying to, they will sign anyone that has a good voice to produce the one album with the couple hit songs and move on to the next one. they're looking for a gimmick if you can get a one hit wonder you are a success if you can get one album wonder then you're great if you have anybody who has more than one album you are in legendary status any band who has three good albums you are in really rare form and it just doesn't it doesn't happen anymore bands used to put out 10, 12 albums in their career bands now three, three, maybe four. And then they break up and they usually take four years between them. So, well, and the money's not there and it's not worth their time to be on the road. Yeah. Well, I don't know. And that's why, uh, you know, when, when Marty was here from head to head, I mean, we talked about it too. I just went to the muse show and muse is one of those rare exceptions that the show was amazing. And it made me want to go back and look at all their old catalog, but they're still an old band. I mean, really, they're my age. They're in their 40s, and that is an old band. Most bands, at least in the 80s, they were early 20s. I agree. It just doesn't happen anymore. So let's wrap this up. I guess we kind of fell away from pinball there for a second, but music's one of my passions, so I could talk about this for hours. Before we go, though, just one more quick shout out. I know we talked about three different people for our loser kid or honorable official loser kids.
    78:01
    I want to add two more to that list. We've talked about them before on this podcast. Actually, sorry, three.
    78:09
    The one, the pair is Martin Robbins and Ryan Kaz from the head to head. If it wasn't for them, we would have not taken the leap to keep this going or to even start this. We kind of talked about this on their episode 188. Or was it 88? 88. So go check that out if you want to do that. And then the other person, Zach Many from Straight Down the Middle, This Week in Pinball, Flippin' Out Pinball. The list goes on and on. He was one of the other ones that convinced us to keep going with it as well and to start it up. And so you both are official loser kids in our books.
    78:45
    And if you are at Rocky Mountain Pinball Showcase this weekend, come and hit me up. I'll be walking around. We don't have T-shirts or anything like that. but send a message to Josh and he'll get it to me. We'll figure out how to hook up. But Jeff and I will be doing, Jeff Rivera from the Pinball Podcast, he and I will be doing something. I don't know what it is. We haven't decided on it with Jeff yet, but come and say hi. I'd love to meet people. Agreed, man. Well, I've got to go feed some babies. I'm getting the cries. I can hear them from upstairs.
    79:21
    There you go. Well, have fun. Go get some sleep. rule of a newborn is you sleep when they sleep. So with twins, good luck. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Later, man.