Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Episode 153 - Pinball Expo 2021

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 10m·analyzed·Nov 1, 2021
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Eclectic Gamers discuss Expo 2021 reveals, gameplay experiences, and concerns about game pricing and reliability.

Summary

Tony and Dennis from Eclectic Gamers Podcast discuss their Pinball Expo 2021 experiences. They cover Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon remake reveal and pricing ($8,000 Standard / $9,250 LE), concerns about unreleased expansion code pricing and potential hardware requirements, their gameplay impressions of Godzilla Premium/LE, American Pinball's Legends of Valhalla (noting art controversy and reliability issues at the show), and their experiences with Multimorphic P3 games including Sorcerer's Apprentice.

Key Claims

  • Cactus Canyon remake will only have two models (Standard and LE), no classic edition

    high confidence · Spoken directly by hosts as confirmed information from the show

  • Cactus Canyon Standard priced at $8,000, LE at approximately $9,250

    high confidence · Hosts confirmed pricing at the booth; noted prices were surprisingly close together

  • Cactus Canyon base code is vanilla (original), not the new Lyman Sheets/Josh Sharp code that will be released later

    medium confidence · Tony spoke with Chris Garazno who indicated someone finished on ball two, suggesting vanilla code

  • Additional expanded code for Cactus Canyon will cost extra but price not yet announced

    high confidence · Hosts confirmed CGC stated expansion code costs extra; noted they had no excuse not to announce price since shipping isn't a factor

  • Rumor: Cactus Canyon expansion code may require additional hardware, not just USB delivery

    low confidence · Dennis noted as 'a rumor already' circulating on Pinside

  • Rumor: expanded Cactus Canyon code will cost around $1,000

    low confidence · Tony notes this is circulating at Expo but could be self-perpetuating speculation

  • Godzilla Premium Edition is significantly more fun than Pro due to building mech with diverters changing shot feeds

    high confidence · Both hosts independently confirmed this as their gameplay experience

  • American Pinball Legends of Valhalla had 5-6 units on the floor at Expo and multiple became non-functional

    high confidence · Dennis witnessed this directly, noting machines disappearing from the floor as they broke down

  • Valhalla playfield launcher failed 36-42+ times attempting to get ball into shooter lane on single play attempt

    medium confidence · Tony counted ~36 attempts, Dennis estimated low 40s; described as worst reliability experience

Notable Quotes

  • “this is the first game that CGC has put out that I have zero interest in picking up. I mean, even if it was like, oh, yeah, money's no object, I just don't care.”

    Dennis @ early discussion of Cactus Canyon — Strong negative sentiment on Cactus Canyon despite it being a remake; reflects skepticism about game appeal

  • “It's a 90s game. It better be under $10.”

    Tony @ pricing discussion — Commentary on expectations for legacy game remake pricing; suggests Pinside enthusiasm for sub-$10k pricing is baseline expectation

  • “I mean, doing things with lots of blood on the back glass on the sides of the cabinet, that stuff only costs you sales.”

    Tony @ Valhalla art controversy discussion — Business analysis of how violent art package impacts sales despite theme appropriateness

  • “It feels like Invasion of the Body Snatchers because I'll walk away. I'll come back a few hours later, and it looks like a Valhalla body has become a Hot Wheels body.”

    Dennis @ Valhalla reliability discussion — Vivid description of machines breaking down and being pulled from the floor at Expo

  • “It took longer to get it in the shooting trough than I think any of my ball times on the game probably were.”

    Tony @ Valhalla launcher issue discussion — Emphasizes severity of reliability issue on show demo unit

  • “you have diluted the specialness by making more units. This is how it works.”

    Dennis @ Valhalla LE run expansion discussion — Commentary on collector market dynamics and how LE expansion affects secondary market and collectibility

  • “The issue, of course, is most likely, you know, if you're going to a company like American Pinball, I imagine they're like, we're not designing a menu system for these other screens, so you're going to use an LCD”

    Tony @ Display technology discussion — Analysis of practical business/technical constraints on screen choice decisions

Entities

TonypersonDennispersonChicago Gaming CompanycompanyAmerican PinballcompanyCactus CanyongameLegends of ValhallagameGodzillagameChris Garaznoperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Chicago Gaming Company seminar at Expo poorly executed; presenter late by 15 minutes, unprepared delivery; attendees frustrated; hosts recommend alternative produced video instead

    medium · Hosts note 'seminar was a cluster' and 'unprofessional style'; recommend viewers skip seminar and watch Zach's produced video instead

  • ?

    community_signal: Legends of Valhalla art package controversy over violent imagery; combined criticism of: specific dead woman imagery on side art, overall blood level on cabinet art, cartoony style mixed with graphic content

    high · Hosts discuss art controversy in detail; Tony notes 'doing things with lots of blood on the back glass on the sides of the cabinet, that stuff only costs you sales'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Multimorphic P3 Sorcerer's Apprentice gameplay lacks engagement; highly targeted shot design with minimal reward for misses reduces appeal despite interesting RPG mechanics

    medium · Dennis: 'It was boring'; Tony: 'you don't get the little blue go, woohoo' for missed shots; overall impression of 'shareware feel'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Cactus Canyon remake licensing approval delayed until day before reveal; no clear indication why approval took so long if game is vanilla code with only topper as new element

    medium · Hosts note spies reported approvals came 'two days ago, the day before the reveal' and question why this was needed given minimal changes

  • $

    market_signal: Limited Edition run expansion on Legends of Valhalla from 300 to 500 units (66% increase) negatively impacting collector FOMO and potential secondary market appeal

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.211

0:00
Welcome to the Collected Gamers Podcast. Today is Saturday, October 30th. This is episode 153. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis. and we'll put this up if everything goes according to plan on Sunday, probably late, because I don't plan to do it until I get back from Expo. We're still at Expo. We still have one full day of Expo 2021 in Chicago, but we have to record this at some point, and I think most of our expectations in terms of reveals and going around and seeing what's at the show and stuff, There's still some seminars that are going on, but we're not actually attending the seminars because we saved money. Yes, we're cheap. Yes. So, but everything just like floods out of those rooms. And really, other than Chicago Gaming, there's nothing to flood out. Right. There's nothing expected. So, this is going to be kind of, I think maybe the best way to approach this for the listeners is, let's talk about the reveal that we know about. let's talk about our new game experiences and then we can just kind of talk about X-Bow in general because those that don't care can just skip, turn off the rest of it. They just turn it off and go away. Yeah, because a lot of them don't. A lot of them don't really care how we feel. They don't know about our feelings. So, as we noted, Chicago Gaming, they finally have, well, again, we already knew about Cactus Canyon remake, but it's here. Yes. Now, we have not played it yet. And we haven't played a remake. Yeah, we haven't played a remake yet.
1:56
I mean, we've played Cactus Candy on multiple occasions. And my understanding is, this does not have enhanced code. I know it doesn't have the new Lyman Sheets, Josh Sharp code that's going to come out, but what I'm not yet clear on is whether they, quote-unquote, finished the original code, or if it's really just vanilla. The way it sounded to the one person, we spoke with someone, we spoke with Chris Garazno, actually. And I think he noted that on ball two. He finished the game. So my guess is it's still vanilla. It's just the straight vanilla. But we didn't dive in to find out if there was some Rocky Road in there or not. Right. Because it's Cactus Canyon. So anyway, Cactus Canyon is going to have only two models. No classic edition.

  • Legends of Valhalla LE run expanded from 300 to 500 units during production

    high confidence · Hosts discussed this as confirmed information from Expo

    • Lyman Sheets
    person
    Josh Sharpperson
    Multimorphiccompany
    Sorcerer's Apprenticegame
    Steve Bowenperson
    Pinsideorganization
    George Gomezperson
    Zachperson
    Medieval Madnessgame
    Attack from Marsgame
    Hot Wheelsgame
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    Riot Pinballcompany
    Pinball Expoevent

    high · Hosts discuss impact on LE buyers seeking collectibility; Dennis notes this dilutes specialness: 'you have diluted the specialness by making more units'

  • $

    market_signal: Chicago Gaming Company promoting Cactus Canyon primarily on topper feature despite it being non-essential addition; limited buzz about core gameplay or mechanical improvements

    high · Hosts note 'most of the buzz that I saw at the event was about the topper' and 'it's the only thing that's new'

  • $

    market_signal: Speculation that Cactus Canyon expansion code will cost ~$1,000; rumor of potential hardware requirement in addition to software, raising DRM concerns

    low · Dennis notes rumor on Pinside; Tony observes 'everyone around Expo is all talking $1,000' but acknowledges this could be self-perpetuating speculation

  • ?

    product_strategy: Cactus Canyon expansion code (Lyman Sheets/Josh Sharp redesign) will be released separately from base game at additional cost; no pricing announced despite no supply chain justification

    high · Hosts confirmed this at Expo and criticized lack of price transparency: 'I think it's a miss to, at this point, for CGC, not to be able to say how much the software expansion will be'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Godzilla Premium Edition significantly more appealing than Pro due to building mech with diverters creating varied shot feeds; building alone justifies premium tier purchase for players

    high · Dennis: 'it was so much better than the Pro' and 'the building alone' would justify purchase; Tony confirms building 'gives it more depth'

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball targeting 1,000 total unit sales across both Legends of Valhalla models (Standard and LE) as company goal for game sales

    low · Tony: 'I heard a rumor... American Pinball was, ideally, they'd like to, across both trim models, sell 1,000'

  • ?

    product_concern: American Pinball Legends of Valhalla experiencing significant reliability failures at Expo; multiple units breaking down during show; launcher mechanism particularly problematic

    high · Dennis witnessed 5-6 units becoming non-functional; Tony counted 36-42 failed launcher attempts on single play; 'going down left and right' during show

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Negative sentiment toward American Pinball build quality despite historical reputation for quality manufacturing

    high · Dennis: 'I've always heard about American Pinball is they have this great build quality but I'm telling you it's funny and it's probably unfair but being at a show and just watching more and more Valhalla's disappear off the floor is like this comes across... this thing doesn't hold up'

    • 2:41
    Standard, I believe, was $8,000. Yes. The number. And then the LE limited to what? $1,200. $1,250. Okay. and that was priced more at like $92.50 I think in that neighborhood under $10 they were surprisingly closely placed together yes and we're recording really early in the morning right now so we're only looking up so much because we're in a hotel room so anyway most of the buzz that I saw at the event was about the topper yeah pretty much that was the only thing Well, it's the only thing that's new. Right. It's like, what else can you get excited about? Now, I have not gone up and gotten a really good look at the topper. I've looked at some close-up photos of it, though. Yeah. I saw those. They rolled it past us while we were standing there when they were rolling it into the game room after the talk. And it's a pretty good-sized topper. It looks like it makes that machine pretty darn tall. Well, and, you know, I'm not huge into, like, I don't dislike toppers. I dislike how much people seem to think they go for now, but Chicago Gaming has always had a pretty good topper game. Yeah. I mean, the Attack from Mars topper was a pretty big hit when it, and I remember when we saw it at Texas Pinball Festival, I was like, that's one worth having. Right. Just because it's so interactive with a little Mars topper. They're not dropping a $1,000 topper that is a sheet of plastic with some lights behind it and something laser etched into it. Right. But what I think was for people where they're not sure is, is this a topper that they'll be able to buy and put on the standard, or is it only with the LE? I wasn't clear if it's known yet or not, but I think some people were jumping on LEs because they want topper. Yeah. Well, and the thing is, is with the sheer number of LEs that are actually available, there's no reason not to. Mm-hmm. Though, and again, is it sold out yet? I'm not clear. I know people weren't sure if they were in on an LE or could get one yet or not, but this is, I mean, I guess, you know, I've often wondered, I think like a lot of people go, why do they not, why do all these pinball companies not do reveals at Expo? It's like, well, I can tell you now, it definitely wasn't convenient for any of these distributors at Expo because they're trying to run booths and stuff, and all of a sudden they're busy dealing with emails and phone calls for this mad rush for this game when they should be working the floor. And at the same time, it's also, I think, we're learning that a more controlled environment for release, where you don't have to worry about the hiccups and the issues that could pop up, is probably a better overall. Now, this was when we weren't in the seminar. But now, our spies tell us that the approvals for this license were, I guess now two days ago, the day before the reveal. Yeah. finally got permission to show the game.
    5:42
    I don't know what the seminar from CGC was going to be if they were not allowed to show these games.
    5:49
    They've wheeled them out to where people can play them now on the vendor side. That was interesting. Again, I can only assume it was the topper because what else is different? I don't know. I don't think anything. If there's no code difference? I don't know why it took so long. Now, rumor has it the actual seminar was a cluster.
    6:16
    Like, came across super unprepared. Presenter was late by a quarter hour. I mean, just sort of unprofessional style. That's my read from how people described it.
    6:30
    Attendees in the seminar were pretty steamed about how it was sort of slapdashed together. I guess Zach, who I co-host with over on the Pinball Show, put together a – I haven't seen it yet. I've seen a link to it, a video kind of teasing it, which did a cleaner job, as produced videos often do. Well, you would hope produced videos do. So I'm sure – rather than – I don't know if they record the seminars here or not, but I would say don't bother with that. If you want to see video, go ahead and check the straight down the middle video out and go with that. And then I'm sure Penside's getting way more photos. I saw some on there last time. Yeah, there were a fair number. So anyway, so what are your thoughts on, I think we've touched on it before, but Cactus, like I've never been in the market for a Cactus game because it's okay. We know someone who has one. We've played it a lot. And it's always been one of those games that I'm more than happy to play it, but I've never had an inkling of a desire to own one. No, not at all. It's one of those games that it's like, okay, yeah, that was fun. That was enjoyable.
    7:37
    But no, this is the first game that CGC has put out that I have zero interest in picking up. I mean, even if it was like, oh, yeah, money's no object, I just don't care. Maybe after the new Super Secret Special Code is out and if it's really good, maybe. but it's not out. And from the sounds of it, it's going to cost extra to get it. So you've got to factor that into whatever it comes when you're purchasing the machine, that if you want the new super Lyman code, that's going to cost you more. We have no idea how much more. Yeah, and that's an excellent point because that's the other thing is, well, they did say, even if you get the LE, this additional code is extra money. They haven't said how much extra money. So everyone's... This feels like how it was up until recently with the Stern Insider Connected kits to convert the Spike 2 games over that didn't come with Insider Connected. It's like, how much is it going to be? We don't know. Now, Stern sent a lot of messages through George Gomez that they were going to really try and keep that price down. And at least currently, those kit prices have been announced at $200. And a lot of people thought they'd be $300. So, you know. And so I don't know on this. I think it's a, I think it's a bit of a, actually, I wouldn't say that. I think it's a miss to, at this point, for CGC, not to be able to say how much the software expansion will be, because there ain't going to be, like, shipping container issues that affect the price. So there's, in my view, there's honestly no excuse not to have the price set at this point. You either have a skeleton outline of what Lyman and Josh are planning to do, and you know how much, like, if it's like 50 modes and you think you need $1,000 for it, that's one thing. And if you think it's going to, okay, no, they're going to do an expanded set, but it's still going to be kind of like 90s level deep, and we're going to ask for $250, you know, what's going on? Well, and then this might just be the whole logistical side of everything in my mind is when you're running it, when they drop it, will it be complete code? No, there's no way it's going to be complete. never have to be updated, changed code. So that means that they have to track who has paid for it, who's allowed to have it. That means you're going to have full-up logins, probably, to get code updates from their system or that specialist code so that they know you paid for it.
    10:12
    Yeah. There's a rumor already. I'm going to class it as a rumor going on on Pinsight that this may require additional hardware for the expanded set. They're not going to even have it as like a USB thing. Oh. You're going to get it. Wouldn't it be interesting if they like sent it on a ROM chip that had to have a special board or something? I mean, I don't know. Maybe you're charging like a grand. A lot of people are all, I mean, everyone around Expo is all talking $1,000. That's where the mind is at. $1,000. That's where the mind is at.
    10:45
    And again, that could just be self-perpetuating. You hear Martha say $1,000 and you hear Bob say $1,000, and so now you say $1,000. I mean, it could be. It could be. If it's $1,000, it better be more than just code. But why, if you're rebuilding a machine, if you're putting it together, would you put it together in such a way that you'd need to add hardware to add code that you've talked about since the beginning was going to be part of the project that you're doing. The only reason I can think of adding hardware is like a DRM style like this. We're doing physical DRM sort of. This is how we're going to make sure people don't share it and undermine our business model. We're going to... And remember, I think, didn't they have something sort of similar where they talked about how you couldn't use, you couldn't throw in a larger screen on the medieval madness classics and then ultimately it turned out there was a way but because they eventually started selling expanded screens I think if I'm remembering right they had to pay extra for the special color medieval oh yeah the color thing thank you because it wouldn't take the color DMD color DMDs and you had to get the Chicago Gaming specialized ones to make it work or something along those lines, if I'm recalling correctly. Now, the Pinside thread seemed pretty excited that this was a good deal, Ellie. I'm assuming that's because it was under $10,000. I can't think of any other reason to say that. It's Pinside. They're excited at a dumpster fire. It's significantly more than what was medieval men as LE8. I think it was around there. That's the standard price now. So, granted, there have been price increases, but I don't know that I would necessarily call it a good deal. Right, and that's the thing. As you're looking at it, it's like, oh, it works. Oh, it's under $10. Ooh, special. It's like, it's a 90s game. It better be under $10.
    12:53
    So, anyway, so that's Cactus Canyon Remake. So, let's go ahead on some of the games we hadn't played before that we've gotten to, thanks to Expo. Let's do one where we've played the pro model of, and that would be Godzilla. We finally got to play the Premium Edition and also get to look at the LE model. So what were your thoughts of the Premium? It was so much better than the Pro, which is an unusual thing to me because 90% of the time when it comes to the Sterns, I think the Pros are more fun and they shoot better while the premiums have lots of fancy fun doodads. But in this specific case, the premium with that building and everything was so much more fun than a game that I already thought was a ton of fun. So I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I wouldn't rate it as a lot more fun than the Pro, but it is more fun than the Pro for me. And I didn't get the bridge to drop. But the building mech, specifically, just because of the diverters and the levels, basically because it changes the feed. It just feels like the, well, it feels like, it's not that there are more shots. It almost feels like it, though, because there are more different, there's different returns. So it just, it feels like there's more going on because thanks to those diverters in the building. So that really stood out, though, because it just makes it feel a lot more, just, it's not so samey. Right. It gives it more depth. Yeah. And so, yeah, that was good. So, yeah, definitely. Oh, it's too bad the price is high. Oh, I know. But anyway, we should have a premium coming to 403 Club eventually. And I think we now have two pros in the Kansas City area on location. So, pro's a great game, but yeah, I know that. Yeah, after playing the premium, I'm like, yeah, I can see why people are jumping for that one rather than the pro, the building alone.
    14:58
    Not to mention, I mean, like, the Mechagodzilla is cool. I like the little ramp shot into his tummy and stuff better than what the Pro 1 does. That wouldn't be enough to make me want to buy it. The building would be enough. Yes. The building would be. And the bridge, at least currently, it's not used enough. As I noted, I couldn't break it down to be like, well, this is sometimes food. It's like a cookie. It's a sometimes food. It's a cookie. It's sometimes food. But anyway, so that was fun. So, I mean, that's definitely a hit for Stern, for people that care about how good, you know, about good games. So, now, we also played, actually, the very first day of Expo, Legends of Valhalla. Yes, we did. Which is the American Pinball game that was actually originally done by Riot Pinball. And I think all American Pinball has done is essentially produced it at this point, like, with their cabinet and stuff. But I believe everything else is straight from Riot Pinball. Now, what were your thoughts? We only put in a game on it to get a feel for it. It shot better than I was afraid of, but it didn't...
    16:09
    You know how some games catch you just like the first time you play it? It's like, oh yeah, this one didn't do that. There was nothing that really jumped out at me and grabbed me and was all, hey, this is something special.
    16:23
    Yeah, I thought the layout's unique, and it's pretty slow based. I thought it shoots well. Obviously, a single game, I don't have enough time on the code to be able to say whether the rules are good or not. It looks like there's a lot there to do. So I think it's pretty well thought out. A few things stood out. Now, obviously you're probably aware there's controversy regarding the art package and the multi-layers to the controversy. so there's controversy regarding one piece of the side art in particular which has a dead woman on it and a lot of people find that objectionable and then there are others who find just the overall blood level in the art package objectionable which we have heard on other days as well so not going into whether and again I think this is just the art package that Riot put together so I think in my view American Pinball has been under an art microscope ever since the issue with the monkey on Oktoberfest, which I think was by, at least by my account, was an inappropriate image to do Monkey committing assault was a bit extreme This is a violent theme so I see where the artist was going with and you can have all sorts of debates about should you convey this? How much of it was authentic? How much of it is still too stylized?
    17:50
    Business-wise, just my judgment is, doing things with lots of blood on the back glass on the sides of the cabinet, that stuff only costs you sales. so even if I like The Walking Dead that's a violent it's not as violent as this but it's still sort of a gross art package they have done better if it was less gross so that's not a rule for anything that's a good general rule I think it's one of those things you have to you kind of need to pick a lane you either need to go safe with it or you need to lean in hard to it and go for the extreme violence. This is one of those things where if you go right in the middle of the road, it's going to hurt you more. Right, and I think it's the thing, for those who haven't seen it, it's weird because there's a lot of blood on the sides in particular, but it's also really cartoony. So that's probably what you're getting at in terms of like, pick a lane. Are you trying to make this look like real Vikings or is this like Nickelodeon Vikings that then you see through blood? Through a bunch of blood everywhere. Through a bunch of Venture Brother blood splatter everywhere. It's like, I think I get it, but maybe from American pinball, this is like a niche run. See, that's weird, too, because there's been controversy on that. There's always controversy on pinball. Now, another controversy on this is that they started the run at 300 of the LE units, and then they upped it to 500. That's a huge upping. I remember when Stern upped the Munsters LE run, and there were people like grip. Yeah. Come on, guys. You just now... Because LE buyers, if they're wanting something collectible and special, you have diluted the specialness by making more units. This is how it works. Right. Those wanting to profit slash flip have an issue there as well, obviously, and maybe you don't want to coddle those people, but... Right. But those people have an issue anyway. But they might pull out of the buy. They might pull out of the buy when it's like, well, you almost doubled the run. Yeah. When you're looking at... What we end up seeing is a 60-some-odd percent increase of the run. Yeah, it's like 66%. That's... So, yeah. And now this game, I believe, the elite run of it is over 8,000.
    20:09
    I don't know yet what's going to go on with their... Because, like, I thought, well, maybe they're only planning to make 500 total. But they're planning, like, a standard edition Model 2. Right. Which I don't... So I don't know how much American Pinball is hoping to sell. I heard a rumor... Rumor's everywhere. Her next faux rumor that American Pinball was, ideally, they'd like to, across both trim models, sell 1,000.
    20:35
    Like, that's their goal for their games is 1,000. Which, from what I have heard, would be pretty robust for an American Pinball sale. Like, maybe Hot Wheels exceeded 1,000. I don't know if the other two did. I don't think Autopress did. I can't imagine it, really. but kind of in the context of what's going on with Cactus Canyon like and the prize scene just sort of knowing that how do you think Valhalla if people were I mean some people just consider everything do you think like Cactus Canyon remake costs American Pinball Valhalla sales or anything I mean it's the only new thing here that's newer than Valhalla I don't know if it will because they might be I think they're probably targeted a little differently. Because I've heard some people, I would agree, I do think that the targets are different, but again, I've heard at least one person here talking and saying, well, it seems like you're getting a lot more bang for your buck with what you get in an L.E. Cactus Canyon than you get in an L.E. Valhalla. Right.
    21:40
    I mean, I don't know. It seems like different markets can eat it. Yeah, well, and CGC I think overall has a better reputation when it comes to the games because of what they're making are proven games. So you know what you're getting into. When you pick up a Medieval Madness or an Attack from Mars, you know you're just taking a game that's already top tier S-class and it's being slapped into a new sexier bottom. Well, you tell Cactus.
    22:20
    Most people don't know it. But having played it, I'm like, if Cactus is not an A-tier game, I can't class it. If they hadn't cut the... I mean, whatever. I know that it was a transition game for Pinball 2000, but had that been given a full run and wasn't under any pressure, that game would not. That's no Medieval Madness. There's no Attack from Mars. Definitely not.
    22:41
    One other thing before I want to continue with that sort of comparison that you brought up, though, was the animations.
    22:49
    So Valhalla has gone with a... Let's throw a lot of static imagery up on the... My take was, we have a screen, but we don't want to animate for it, so we're going to do a lot of static images and throw them up on the screen. I was talking to someone at the show, and they were like, they really liked that, because in their view, it's better to do high-quality still images and put them on the screen than to do a crappy animation job. But, to me it also stands out that you've got this whole big screen and you're not really doing anything with it.
    23:27
    So I wonder what your thoughts were on that. I think that there's still enough nostalgia, there's still enough interest.
    23:37
    I think that if you're just going to do stills and not do anything fancy with an LCD, go back to the DMV display and lean into it. Drop the DMVs, lean hard into the DMVs. Because there's still a lot of people, I still hear people all the time say that they would rather have a DMV than a lot of the LCDs that are out there. Yeah, you know, I don't know if people would put their money where their mouth is on that or not, because no one tries it anymore. Right. You know, the closest was kind of like, I thought was, was it Thunderbirds was the last one? Thunderbirds had a lot of things going on with it that were worse than anything with the display.
    24:21
    My thinking, though, in this instance is, now, personally, I would agree. I would rather see, like, if you don't want to do animations, I'd rather see you go with an alphanumeric. If you want to do animations, if you want to do animations, but you don't want to go to the, you know, because you still need a dot to animate it. So to me, it was like, are you not wanting to do any animation at all? If you're more comfortable with dot-level animation, which was less work, less people, then, okay, do that route. The issue, of course, is most likely, you know, if you're going to a company like American Pinball, I imagine they're like, we're not designing a menu system for these other screens, so you're going to use an LCD, because why would they go out of their way to accommodate? That's the thing. Because normally, if you're ever doing audits and maintenance stuff on a numeric and alphanumeric and a D&D, They're all different systems because of what they can offer you. So I could see, you know, I got that feeling with TNA when I bought it. Because there's not much. There's a cool kind of like animated like reactor thing, but it's basic. It's real basic. It's all loop. And the screen doesn't do much other than pop-up messages other than that. Animation-wise, it's not impressive. But I imagine Spooky was like, that's the menu. You need it for the menuing. We're not going to go and just use the numerics for the menuing on minions and always set up for that. Right.
    25:43
    That's a really interesting way to look into it because I am a big fan of alphanumerics. I really kind of like the general look you get when you've got just the back glass and just the scores up there with just the alphanumerics with none of the other fancy stuff. I would be all into a game that just dropped. that had a bunch of Alphanumeric. I think if it was a niche run, I could see it. Right. I could see it. I can't see it on a major run, but I think I like the look. It's a clean look that I enjoy. Now, you mentioned the thing about CGC and the quality and really focused on the titles. One of the things that, for a while now, both CGC and American Pinball have had pretty supportive fan bases for their build quality.
    26:37
    These Valhalla's are going down like left and right at the show. Oh, my gosh. It feels like Invasion of the Body Snatchers because I'll walk away. I'll come back a few hours later, and it looks like a Valhalla body has become a Hot Wheels body. And it's like they started with like eight or something. I don't know. I don't remember how many. It wasn't much of a line. I think, yeah. They had five. They had five or six, I think. And we got on it pretty quick. And then I saw a couple were turned off later. and then I think I don't remember how many there were still left yesterday but I was like I think there were four left yesterday I was like I don't know what's going on but so it's in a way it's funny because the one big thing I've always heard about American Pinball is they have this great build quality but I'm telling you it's funny and it's probably unfair but being at a show and just walking around and watching more and more Valhalla's disappear off the floor is like this comes across Like, this thing doesn't hold up. Right, and now it could be because these are early production. Oh, there could be a lot of legit reasons, but it doesn't give me confidence. Correct. And just on the game we played, on my ball three,
    27:52
    it tried and failed to launch the ball into the shooter lane 42 times before it successfully put the ball in the shooter lane. Because we were playing the same one, I did not have it to that extent, but it did on one of my balls. It kept just like it could. It was weird because it was like I wasn't even sure it was trying at first. Right. See, that's why when I looked to the side and I saw it, and I started counting, and I know based upon how – and I say 42. That's an estimate. Right. I counted 36 attempts before it successfully got up into it. so I'm taking how often it was attempting combined I mapped it out my estimate is a low 40s to get it up you're a professional podcaster it was a pretty accurate estimate you were there for a while yeah no it was like it took longer to get it in the shooting trough than I think any of my ball times on the game probably were so and again I mean it's just one of those things it's one of those it's like you know every time we've been at Texas Pinball Festival and I've gone to try, I've still never played Big Lebowski. Every time I've gone over there to play it, it's broken. And that's the impression I have of it, is Dutch makes a broken product. Yeah. And that's probably totally not fair, but that's the reality that you get at a show like this, is you look at something and it's like, why is it down all the time? Well, these, I was so impressed with how many they brought, and then it's just like, they're just going down. Going down left and right, and it's like, oh, that's so unfortunate.
    29:28
    But yeah, again, it's early for I'm hoping whatever it is they can suss out or maybe something that's a show specific stuff I mean I know you're throwing a lot of people on them but again if someone wanted to route it in an arcade in an ideal world they're going to throw a lot of people on it needs to be able to hold up all day ideally without someone you know mother henning and hovering over it sort of thing so there was that we did go over to the P3 we have not played Heist yet we tried to yesterday but then I saw Steve Batten was there and just started a game of Heist and I'm like I ain't standing in line waiting for him to finish ice, because this could be a while. But we did get to play Sorcerer's Apprentice. Yes, we did. And that uses the Cosmic Kart Racing playfield. Yes, it does. So, we only did a game on it. What were your thoughts? It was boring. I mean, I played it. It didn't, like, really excite me. I thought it was kind of interesting and the targeted shot that it goes for. That's a thing that I've seen in other P3 games. It's very targeted and you go for it, but in most pinball games you've got your very targeted shots that are your big points, but you still feel like you get something if you miss your targeted shots. In this, no. No, you just it doesn't matter. If you miss your shot, nah. It's not you don't get the little blue go, woohoo, there's a hundred points. it's just like nah you suck yeah it was okay like I get the RPG mechanic has potential I don't know how broadly appealing it would be to pinball people to do how they were approaching it was like so I mean again it was only a game so I don't want to overstate I it has because the Cosmic Heart Racing playfield is very fan. The shots are all spread towards the back and you've got all these entry toys. And again, they're using the screen to tell you shoot here. So it'd be like, okay, I've gone to the Bazaar or the Dunes or whatever. I mean, I was making some shots. And then it's like, here, hit one of these three shots to start to learn the spell. So I make the shot. And then it's like, now make these shots to learn the spell. And I didn't do so well there, but it finished the timer, so I got the spell anyway, I guess. I did not successfully go into a dungeon to use the spell, and then I saw on the, you know, I had a good instruction screen, but it talked about like a shield. I don't know if I have to earn the shield or what, or if that was this anti-balder. Because I like, those are, because P3s have three buttons on both sides, so I started trying to use the other buttons to see if I could get them to do anything, and I don't think I had what I needed. I was sure I wasn't ready to fire my magic, I don't know if magic was a good calling. Yeah.
    32:20
    The, uh, it is that game has a very shareware feel to it. I think that's a good way to put it. That's how I would describe it. It feels like shareware. It looks like a phone game. Very much. That you play pinball on. Now, I love the Cosmic Kart Racing module. I like the mechanics of it. That's right. The mechanics of the module. I like it. And I like... Of all of the various modules I've played, which again, haven't played Hive. I like the feel of that module best though I didn't really enjoy Cosmic Heart Racing and I didn't really enjoy this it's weird because it's a module I think this module has a lot of potential with its mechanics I just haven't played anything on it yet that really gets me going it looked clean, it was pretty easy to identify what you needed to do I thought they spelled out the instructions really well. Didn't care for the sound package on it. And I just, I don't know, like, if I had it and I had a Cosmic Heart, I don't remember the price on it. It's a few hundred. You have all the other stuff. I mean, if you're a P3 owner, I imagine you probably just end up buying anything for your module anyway just to get more stuff at this point. Because it's not like there's a really deep library. Yeah. And I think in a home environment where you can play around with this more, because it seemed like it would take you quite a while. I mean, you have to go to a location, go get your spell, and I assume go and use your spell. That's quite a number of steps to try and do in a game for the average person. So there's probably a lot on that to it, but I don't see that game moving units. No, I don't think anybody would buy a P3 to play Sorcerer's Apprentice. No, I get where they're going with it, but it's just... I mean, broadly speaking, one of the things I really noticed with it is, especially when you're trying to go to the dunes or whatever, it just feels really barren. Because you just have this open screen where you've got, I mean, there's no art. Targeted things pop up. Yeah, no, it wasn't, it was okay, but I would never be in the market for something like that, I don't think. Unless the price was really low and with me already having all the other stuff for it. Right. I mean, it's just one of those things It's kind of I mean, this is one of the things for me I've just really struggled to have The particular games that P3 does Clip with me A lot of them are okay I haven't hated any of them But I don't love any of them either Right And it It the point Godzilla you going to have P3 I still going to take Godzilla I did like how they integrated the light show on Sorcerer Place though I thought they did a really good job with the light. The light was going to stand out to me.
    35:27
    I'm still not a huge fan of the triple button placement. My fingers touch it weird. Oh, yeah. I actually, on my first ball, I didn't even remember there were three buttons. I kind of didn't read the instructions. And I just happened to have my hands played. Like, for me, the flipper buttons are in the natural position, so I don't notice that. But when I started having to think about, oh, I need to do other stuff. I have that issue with, like, any game that has no more than the two flipper buttons. Yeah. So that's a me thing on all sorts of stuff. Yeah, because I've had that issue with multiple games, too. It's like, oh, yeah, there's a third button. I just don't ever remember. we've had a couple weird games because we played that Mach 2.02 that had the weird flippers with the deep indents that your fingers yeah I don't even remember who made that you did well at that though it was spinmatic or something like that it was weird but the buttons felt weird because they had like really deep indentations yeah so let's talk about the games So that's a good transition. So let's talk about just kind of the expo, what's going on at expo in general, because we've covered all the new stuff that was new to us other than, ideally, hopefully we'll get time on heist today, and my plan would be we can just talk about it on our next episode. Right. Since we might, if we need to, we may record a supplement to this one if necessary, but I don't think there are any more reveals to happen. I mean, I think if there's like something huge. Tony and I are on vacation. We're only going to go to so much effort here. So, yeah.
    37:04
    Now, this is a show that's organized by Rob Burke. There are a lot of really weird and unusual games that are on the show floor. You mentioned that mock game. He's got some of the, I mean, there are people. Mark, 2.02, Spinball, 1994. Okay.
    37:20
    We saw, like, some conversion kit games. Just a lot of really rare stuff. a lot of broken games. Yeah. You know, that's something that happens at every show. There's always broken games.
    37:40
    But, we'll do a TPM comparison, but I'll hold on that first. Where are any other games that kind of stood out to you?
    37:50
    See, that game, the Joust. Oh, the The EM joust. The Valley joust. That game stood out to me. That's because it looks a little bit like something you own. That's true. Only the loosest sense of very loose. Shoot this number, go around the play field and shoot these shots. But it ain't the same play field. Nowhere near at all. That was interesting.
    38:18
    There's been several things. I liked that Starfire. The William Starfire. Yes, that game was fun. I like that, I mean, they've all been off, except for the one, but those kind of transition games that have the... Oh, the 1960 moving from the wood rail where they got the big weird front where they like to hold 12 packs of cigarettes. Yeah, and everything. I like the look. They've got like this like 50s boating feel, and they've got like the legs are the big old huge 50s and 60s chair legs, the table legs. I'm sure there's a term for it I don't know what it is I like the look To me it's a super retro look And I kind of like it It feels like it would go really good You know In the room Where you've got your Cadillac trunk couch And all your Maybe one of those chairs that's an egg Yeah They feel like they'd go real well in there I just like the aesthetic on it.
    39:30
    We've been to Texas a number of times. We're planning to go here again. It was supposed to be our 2020 trip. It's 2022.
    39:39
    In terms of show to show, this show feels so much less to me. It does. It feels like there are less vendors. it feels like there are it doesn't feel like there are way less games, way less games and it seems like the percentage of broken down games is way higher right, I mean and it's important to stress that it's the percentage because you couldn't be looking at the same number of broken down games there's just so many left but at Texas, I see techs all over the place going around, and I saw people working on games at Expo, but I mean, the way it looks, in the free play area, I can't comment on the tournament area, but in the free play area, it feels like, and I'm making these numbers up, it feels like Rob Berkus has like 80% of the games, and 20% of his supplied games are not on, or they're not working right.
    40:38
    And I'm just like, this is not a great impression coming off of a show that is... Now, there are things, because of how Texas is, that I like about this. It's way easier to walk around here. Yes. It's way easier to get on games here. And it's way easier to find people when you separate. Yes. Texas is like a rat's nest, where you're just feeling like you're walking in a serpentine pattern. You're without rhythm, so Shia LaBeouf won't eat the pinballs or something. And I'm just like, at Texas, I can go through, and then the next day I find new vendors, because apparently there was one little turnoff that I missed. Right. And I couldn't tell, because it's so tight. Well, and the big thing is, like, there's been multiple occasions where, because at Texas, our hotel is so much closer, that, you know, one of us will go back to the hotel room for something or to drop off some stuff we bought. Oh, yeah, we're driving all the time. Yeah, and here we're driving all the time. But also at Texas, you'll walk back to your hotel room, do whatever, you'll walk back, and it'll take 45 minutes or an hour to try and find the rest of the group. without sending messages and arranging a meet-up. Where here, you walk back in, and it takes like five minutes. F that. It's like, there they are. Yeah. Yeah, and this has plenty of places to sit, which has been nice. Yes.
    42:03
    And this, I know, is the first time in this facility. There are a few things that I'm going to assume they're going to change for the next time around, or I hope they will. One of the early things we ran into is when we showed up to register and get our bracelets to get in, it was not clear that there was a separate place to go for everything but the tournament. And there was this line we were in. Thankfully, someone told us. It was just the tournament. It was just the tournament that was pouring out down the hallway. But there was no signage. Right. I saw someone put up a sign later. it wasn't, I think that just sort of said it was the tournament area.
    42:45
    But again, it was handwritten. You couldn't read it from any distance. Right. And the line was gone by then. It wasn't a big deal. I think that might be a lesson learned for them later on. Now, I have been hearing there have been some issues with the tournament, but I've always heard X-Bust Tournament isn't particularly great. Yeah. I mean... I do like how the delineation they've done between the vendor area and the game area. But I do also at the same time think it hurts them because the vendor area tends to open hours and hours after the free play area. And in all honesty, I would say the game count in the vendor area equals the game count in the free play area. Yeah, my guess is there are probably more games in the free play area, but pretty much all of the new stuff is over. Yeah. I think there are less than six LCD screen games in the free play area.
    43:52
    There's like a Woz. Yeah, there's like one section where somebody has all of the JGPs. basically. There's a thing over by the restroom area that I think has maybe one or two LCD screen games. The vendor area has got what we're used to I call them the flower design layouts, like how Marco likes to do with all the new Sterns.
    44:19
    The JJP section has got the JJP stuff. American Pinball has got a really strong showing of games. Valhalla's and Hot Wheels and Houdini's And I'm guessing Oktoberfest. I don't know. I didn't see one. I didn't see an Oktoberfest, but I saw the other ones. They've got a lot of games there.
    44:37
    You know, it's like, so, and not only does the vendor section tend to open hours later, it also closes hours earlier. Yes. So, like, the first day, I got thrown out of the vendor area, because I was there by the once-in-a-time hit. Right. So they were going around telling me, you know, you need to go over to the free play site. it's like okay but like there's nothing new on the free play side now I'm more than happy to go around and play EM games if they're working but once I've played them I want to usually at shows I go and play something else after that I don't want to just stay on the same game so it's like it would be nice to have some of the other because most of the people that usually if I need to find someone I go over to the vendor area because most of the people are hanging out around the new games right there are only so many times you need to play a ballet about blackjack where you're like, okay, there's probably no blackjack for today. It's two.
    45:39
    It's, okay, maybe I'll go home and look to see if I can find one for $600. That's one of those. Yeah. Back in the day, that would have been the price. I'm sure now it's over at that.
    45:49
    Now, just some other show comparisons are just in general. There are a lot of other pluses. just for us, for those that don't know, because we're in the Kansas City area, it's actually, essentially, identical time for us to go to TPM in Dallas or here in Chicago. It's an eight-hour trip, by the way. Yeah, the difference in drive time is literally like minutes. However, it has been so much easier driving in the Chicago traffic than it is in Dallas. I was shocked. I thought it would be worse. I know we're not in downtown Chicago, but we weren't in downtown Dallas either. We're in Frisco. It's another suburb just like we're in Schwamberg or whatever And we hit Chicago We hit up here Just at the starting Opening seconds of Rush hour because we got up here Right around 4 But traffic wasn't nearly As want to smash your head Through the steering wheel as Dallas And in Dallas Other than coming and going And Most of the time because of facilities The hotels are also close together.
    46:59
    We walk, and they have food trucks. Expo doesn't have any... All right, it's got a concession area. So does Dallas. Right. But it's like, everything's... Well, stuff's not far. It's not really walkable at all. Especially not because right this second, looking out the window, this is the first day it hasn't been overcast and raining all day. Yeah. So, I mean, there's stuff within a mile or so, but it's on the other side of the highway. I'm sure there's probably crosswalks and stuff, but it's just like, we're driving to everything here, but it's not that bad. There are parking lots and stuff, and the Dallas area, I'm just like, and that's not the show's fault. It's just like, Dallas didn't lay off their road system as well. I guess this might take it away. So it's been more enjoyable, you know, actually both traversing in the car and actually traversing around the, I mean, there is plenty of space in the, I don't feel, Texas I have to step out because I feel almost claustrophobic after a while. The sound in particular kind of overwhelms me. I have never been like, I need to step out of here. Like I would if I needed to take a phone call, but it's not like, I need to step out of here because my ears hurt. It's not like that. Because they've got enough space in this facility to, that it's not like, this is not like how, Texas is a cacophony of chaotic sound. so that's been that's been better um food's good in both places i would go ahead and get the edge here to chicago i think so uh it just feels like more diverse fair maybe some of that's the start the choices we're making and versus you know the same old food trucks that you see it right and you know outside of when the show's not right we we do hit other places in texas but we have kind of settled into our we have a routine a routine that we hit in texas and we might end up with the same thing if we came back here multiple times.
    48:56
    Yeah. Now, I mean, this is, and I get it, because it's Expo, and we're in the heartland of the capital of pinball,
    49:06
    there are a lot of, I mean, obviously the people who work for most of these companies are here. So, I mean, if you're interested in the programmers, the rules designers, the playfield designers, the engineers, There's like, you get way more of that here than you do in Texas. In Texas, like the hardcore, dedicated, like the Steve Richies come out there. But you might not get the lead engineer from every single company. If you can identify them and pick their breath. So there have been a few that I've run into. Like there's a guy who has helped fix a game who does the prototyping for JJP. He had some interesting stories about the past games that have already come out. they worked on and stuff. So that's been neat when you have that happen. And then, of course, we know a lot of people around here from doing podcasts or the other shows we've done. A lot of Kansas City folks came up, for example, to play in the tournament and do a show. I think a lot of people have just gotten out of that cabin either. Like, we just need to do something. And that was our thing. And like you and I had talked at one point, even if they canceled Expo, we were still coming. Yeah, it had just become a Chicago vacation. It's just become a thing. It's just like, I just need to decompress. Yeah.
    50:23
    But overall, it's been pretty good. I like our hotel at the Drury a lot better than this one. I agree. There's enough space in here. I would rate this room as better than our Holiday Inn room, or whatever. Our Hilton Garden Inn. Excuse me, we've never been at the Holiday Inn in Texas. The Hilton Garden Inn.
    50:43
    In this one, if you had two more people, this more clearly defined floor space without tripping over people that you could put sleeping bags out or whatever.
    50:53
    this is a strange room with no real furnishings. It's odd. I don't know. Not a big deal. Right. But those are all the main things that stuck out to me about the show. Any additional thoughts?
    51:13
    I like I very much like actually the large collection of classic arcades that are here in addition to pinball machines I know that even at TPF there's always arcades but there's a lot more here and the diversity of the ones that are here includes a lot of games that I've never even heard of before so it was interesting just to have that little change up and just kind of going around and trying different things. I like that. I like the, and like I said earlier, I kind of like the layout, the way the layout works. I like having the vendors all pushed together. On the other hand, it is kind of nice at TPF when you're wandering, like you said, and you'll just, you'll be like, oh, here's a bunch of games, and here's like one or two vendors. And here's a bunch of games, and then there's, oh, here's another vendor. But at the same time, the fact that there's just a vendor area, where I just, it's like, I want to look at stuff. Texas' thing is a bit of an anomaly. I think most events, most shows that I am familiar with, the vendors have their own space, a vendor hall.
    52:24
    And overall, I would say I do prefer the expo approach for that in the sense that if you want to go looking for product, if you want to go buying stuff, it's nice to know it's all here. I get where, and maybe I'm wrong on this, I get what Texas... I assuming what Texas is trying to do is say hey people are going to be going around You going to get so much more foot traffic and exposure because we surrounding you with all these games And in the vendor area here it like you better have brought your own games and stuck them in your booth or else people are not going to have a reason to come and hang out around the booth.
    52:58
    Well, at the same time, and now again, in 2022, this might not be an issue, but I remember thinking in 19, and even in 18 when we were at TPF, that it almost feels like TPF has outgrown its strengths. Yeah, no. TPF, I can't praise TPF's layout, because in an ideal world, you'd be able to map that stuff in. Yeah. It's too confusing. It's confusing because here everything is like a grid. Like, okay, they could put way more games in this facility than they have. Right. Ideally, and maybe that's the ultimate plan. They need to figure out a better way to incentivize people to bring games up here. But that's not my problem to solve.
    53:50
    If they keep the layout, though, with the big rows and things that are really structured and logical, that's good. In Texas, and I don't know if it's because of the vendors or because there's so much demand or what, it's not like here's a row of pins and then you go two feet and then there's another row of pins. It's not like that. It's serpentine. It's looping. It has dead ends. it's weird. It's weirdly laid out. And one of the big problems is because they're squeezing as much TPF in as they can in a space that is far too small, that there's not nearly as much room between the rows of games for foot traffic to pass while people are playing, waiting to play. I mean, if you've got a group of four on a machine, and a group of four on a machine behind them, there's only enough space for a single file line to pass between them and TPS. They're maximizing the space as best they can. Right. They just need a bigger space. Yeah. I would assume there is something there in the Dallas area. It's a price thing. I imagine so. Also, who knows how many years worth of an agreement perhaps they have entered in. I don't know.
    55:03
    Organizationally, where I am at and where I used to work, we always entered in multi-year conference arrangements.
    55:10
    in part so that you could be sure you had the business. Right. So that you need it. Yeah, I don't know if they like that or not. So anyway, and again, maybe Expo had that problem before because we never went when they were at the old space. This is the first time at this space. This space is pretty good. I like this space. And this space has a lot of room for growth, you can tell. They're using just a small portion of this space. Correct. But in the war of shows, It depends on what you want, but I guess my statement would be, unfortunately for Expo, unless you are just, as a pinball enthusiast listening to this podcast, unless you are just playing, your big desire is to go out there and meet as many people who work for the pinball industry.
    55:59
    Texas is a better choice. Yes. Unless it's that. If that's what you want, then Expo is where you need to go. If you're wanting to play the most games, easily Texas. vendor selection. Easily Texas. I was shocked at how few mod companies there were. Yeah. And Expo has this huge, continuous run of seminars. You've got to pay a ton extra for the seminars separate from everything else.
    56:29
    And most of them are very niche and targeted. Which is great if you are in that niche and targeted thing. but I didn't want to spend an extra... What was it, $60? Like $60. Yeah, not to totally cheapskate it, but that was my same logic. It's like, I don't want to pay $60 just to do the CGC review. Yeah. Because, I don't know, it's been a while since I looked at it, but did it seem like half of the presentations were all just tips on restoration? Yeah, it was all restoration or... How many people were a store? Yeah. I don't know very many people who do. Maybe that's why. So, yeah, if you're into restoration, we've exposed the show for you, and sign up for the seminars, and learn all about all the different ways to do it. We'll plug it like that, because I'm just like, I looked at the list, and I'm like, this is not... It's... Coming at it from a work perspective, again, so, and most of the listeners know, currently, I do work in public health. When I was planning our 2021 conference, one of the things is when I'm picking out the schedule of presentations is I try to avoid them being samey.
    57:48
    Like, I don't want two presentations on the Women, Infants, and Children program. One's enough. We don't need two presentations on how to apply for grants. One is enough. So, again, it's like, because otherwise people are like, why are we kind of touching on, like, different perspectives of all the same topic? Right. and if this were a thing where it was like, here are these workshops and they're running concurrently, which of the three do you want? I could see doing it like that, but maybe having the same people do the presentation two or three times over two or three blocks. Well, and see, like, when I go to work conferences, it's the same way where they just delineate the blocks. Like, it'll be, okay, here is a three-hour window. the seminar inside this three hour window everything here is going to be about biosolids so there might be eight presenters in that three hour window with their papers and their stuff but this block this is the biosolids block this is the biological nutrient removal block this is the disinfection block so if you want to go and learn more about disinfection and certain types of disinfection, you go to the disinfection block and you listen to, you know, eight, ten people over the course of that run.
    59:12
    But then it's not like you're sitting there and it's like, okay, this next disinfection guy is like in four hours. We'll come back. No, you don't do that. It's here's my block. Okay, I'm done with this block. I can go do other stuff.
    59:26
    And I think that's a better set. Like if they wanted to set up, here's a restoration block, like Friday morning. The first four hours of Friday morning is just people talking about restoration.
    59:38
    And then, oh, we want to talk about homebrew rules development. Okay, that's Friday afternoon. Homebrew rules development talk block. Sure. Stuff like that. Yeah, that would be a good way that they could approach it. Another item I participate on, not to bore everyone with non-pinball conferences, but I do help plan in Kansas the Governor's Public Health Conference. they added me to that team last year. The way they do it is they, behind the scenes, have established blocks. So the way they do it actually is more like tracks. So it's like, okay, we're always going to have something that targets leadership and local health. We're going to have something that always targets maternal child health. We're going to always have something that targets substance abuse or mental health issues. And then every single hour or whenever you run your workshops, there's always one in each of those topics. Now, you're not locked into a particular track, but then when we make sure that there's, so if someone's always like, I only want to learn about maternal child health stuff, there's actually always a workshop, ideally tailored to the person that wants to learn about that. Yeah. And that's how they do it. And so it's like, there are going to be five different blocks of time during the whole event. So we need, and we've got five tracks. So there's always going to be five of each and do it like that. So this just seemed like, and perhaps it's unfair, but it just kind of felt like, so who's around and what do they know about? And people know the restorers and that's who gets invited to do this stuff. And I'm not saying that, again, we weren't in the things. I'm not saying that the presentations are bad or anything, but it did seem really samey when I read through the lessons. Like, this is all really very, like, I don't think most people are going to be expert in this, but maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I mean. Like, I've worked on games for a long time. I'm not interested in restoration. I would pay someone to do it. I would not. My idea of restoration is putting in a new door. And that's about as far as it goes. I peeked through the open doorway and some of them were there were a lot of people in some of them. I don't know which ones they were because I didn't pay that much attention. But if you paid $60, would you feel compelled to go and be like, I need to sit. I can't walk on this concrete. I need to go sit. I'll listen to someone. I'll learn something. Because, I mean, if I had bought a seminar ticket, I probably would have signed one. Yeah, because, okay, let's see. Just going off today, Saturday, it's currently 9.30. At 9 a.m., the thing was collecting advertising memorabilia. That could be interesting if that was the type of thing you were really into. And then it's followed up by a homebrew Black Knight pinball machine Built completely from scratch Followed by custom pinball cabinets Followed by Shipping pinball Followed by Q&A about banning So I mean there's stuff in there It's just some of the stuff None of it's anything that jumps out at you Intro to reading EM schematics that was yesterday Just it's One of those things Yeah it's I mean, it's a fair point, but it's just, yeah, some of the stuff seemed very... Well, I mean, even the ones you said, so much of it was on working on. So there's a lot of working on stuff, which, it's pinball stuff breaks, I get that. It's just, I don't know how many... I mean, maybe there was demand, maybe we're wrong on that. Maybe this is... I mean, to be fair, they do, it seems like they do way more presentations here than they do at TPS. Yeah, it feels that way. but at TPF we don't have to pay extra to go sit in on one and there was no a la carte option because there were a couple of things here that were interesting to me that I was like I just cannot again I'm too much of a cheapskate I just could not justify buying a full package three day thing when I wanted to go to one thing and it's like I just can't do it you're not offering an a la carte so like it was like here 60 bucks for all of it or $10 per. I could have seen myself dropping $20 to go to a couple, but not. Right. People gotta understand I gotta eat. I gotta save this money.
    63:55
    I gotta buy my Walking Dead mods that aren't here. All that stuff ruined. No Walking Dead mods. So sad. Well, this will probably be the end of this then. And hopefully we've made it back okay and I put it up sometime on Halloween like I planned to. Because I've got to do a little bit of editing and get the intro in and stuff. But those I want to reach out to. Oh, we did get an email. I want to talk about the email. We got an email. Yeah, so let's just drop it in here at the end because everyone's already hung up on us. We got a P-mail. Everyone's hung up on us. Yeah, we got one, so I wanted to go ahead and mention it. I usually do that kind of early in the show, but, you know, we're kind of flying blind here. Yeah, we got an email about the Twitch chat. Oh. So it's kind of video gaming. Yes. So this is from Ian. So Ian writes to us and says, Love your podcast. Thanks for keeping me entertained for a little bit every couple weeks. Wanted to comment on the Twitch leak. I think there are two points that you might have overlooked. The first is that anytime your competitors can analyze your pricing model, they have a big advantage over you. They could use this information to target certain segments of your creator base. Trust me, they are freaking out about this. The other thing is that the source code releases is huge. They have probably spent $100 million developing all the systems, and now it is available to hackers and competitors alike. Thanks. Ian, so in regards to, I think he's got a great point about the source book. I think so. And we didn't really touch on that at all. Because we mainly concentrated on the stuff that was more, the more headline-gravity type things that would have jumped out at most people. Right. The pricing model one, I'm not as sure about. And the reason is because all of these partners and affiliates have, and maybe I'm misinterpreting what he meant by pricing model, but because they had agreements. I mean, we already knew what share of bits, we know the percentage, we know how much Steam takes as a percentage of all the sales. We already know that in terms of pricing. So we already knew how much the Twitch deal was in terms of, because there have been plenty of people who are maybe not the biggest ones but will go on and say oh yeah well I get half of all the bits that are donated I get half of all the sub money that goes in is how the model works because that part is pretty transparent anyway because the clients the partners and affiliates the contractors there's so many of them that information has been out for a long time not to mention most of that stuff has been published publicly whereas our focus was on we didn't know the specific dollar amounts that were going to particular individuals and I'm not sure knowing that changes the landscape much for Twitch other than if people are really uncomfortable having that known maybe they're like I'm going to YouTube I think it is but at the same time I think it hurts them because it will make it easier for YouTube gaming, Facebook gaming, all these other people to make offers to snipe out higher-placed streamers. Now, that's a good point, and maybe that's where he was going at it. Because a lot of the really high-end ones do have special arrangements. Yeah. But now that you see the dollar ones, maybe they could go in and say... Because they walk... And Microsoft used to do that when they had Mixer. Yeah. They would try and poach some of the biggest names, and they did. Yeah, and YouTube gaming's poached people. Facebook gaming has poached people. And it's one of those things where they can just walk in and go, okay, it's like, we know. Over the last three years, you made $6 million. Okay, that's cool. We'll give you $10 million for three years.
    67:39
    I mean, it gives them a solid footing to start the negotiation. But I do agree with Ian. It is a good point that we didn't really mention that. Just any time a competitor, he mentions the price and models, but if a competitor knows things about you and you don't know things about your competitor, they do have an advantage over you. and it could be a signal. And like you said with the source code, this could end up being a more major issue. Like if you start seeing things appearing, competitors adding things that are very popular with Twitch, that's always going to be a concern now. Did they learn it from that, or is it just parallel creation? I guess Twitch could, I mean, in theory, Twitch could litigate and say, you know, you're using stolen source code. but they'd have to prove it. Right. And it's going to cost them money to do so. So, yeah, it's more trouble than not having to worry about it at all because your social worker wasn't out there. So, yeah, that would definitely just blossom and do a big pain in the butt for them. Yeah. At least, even if they could stop them all legally and the costs associated and the time spent smacking down people that are cloning your stuff because it's so readily available now. Right. Even though it's still technically protected IP. Because it didn't become open source just because it got released. So anyway, interesting email. So thanks, Ian.
    69:03
    And now I will close this out. So you can email us at CollecticGamersPodcast.gmail.com or go to Facebook.com slash CollecticGamersPodcast. We're available on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram as Eclectic underscore Gamer. And we should be back in a couple weeks. A couple weeks. A couple beaks. No, beaks.
    69:21
    Bird beak. Anyway, regardless if we drop the beak or smack the beak, punch that bird in the mouth. Punch right in the mouth. That was a bird being punched in the sack. Don't hit birds. It's not nice.
    69:37
    We should be back in Kansas. Will there be yet another reveal? Hopefully not. We've got to be done. Actually, no. No, we're not. I bet you there's one more. Rumor mill is Rush. Rush is announced in December. Oh, yeah. I forgot to do rumor corner. That's your new rumor corner. Today's rumor corner is Rush is coming out in December. Bird design.
    69:56
    I haven't heard who's on code. What do you think? Could be Lonnie. I haven't seen Lonnie in a while. I am not on code. I don't do rules. I just judge your rules. That's what we do. That's what podcasts do. We just judge you. I just slam my face in the keyboard and let's see what the code is. We don't judge you. We judge your product. We try and keep that distinct. It's coming out with the DaVinci Code. But that'll be it for now. So I'll just say goodbye, everybody. See ya.