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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 26: We Upgraded!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 14m·analyzed·Nov 18, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Triple Drain discusses tournament play, Godzilla depth, and mech vs theme importance with guest Carl D'Angelo.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast discusses recent gaming experiences and tournament developments. Joel and Tom record without regular co-host Travis, bringing in guest Carl D'Angelo (IE Pinball streamer) as a temporary replacement. The episode focuses on competitive play insights, detailed analysis of Godzilla Premium vs Pro and other recent Stern releases, and exploration of single-level vs multi-level game design trends.

Key Claims

  • Recovery skills are more important than rule knowledge in competitive pinball play

    medium confidence · Carl D'Angelo and Joel discussing what separates top tournament players; Carl emphasizes that knowing shots is less important than being able to adjust when you miss them

  • Godzilla Premium has three significant mechs that justify the upgrade over Pro: the bridge, building, and rotating Mechagodzilla

    high confidence · Joel directly states this after purchasing Godzilla Premium; Carl validates the bridge's animation quality surprised him positively

  • Theme sells initial game sales; mechs drive long-term sales success

    medium confidence · Carl D'Angelo explains the market dynamic; contrasts with previous episode discussion where Travis allegedly said mechs don't sell games

  • Single-level games can be as engaging as multi-level if they have strong shot layout and rule design

    medium confidence · Carl discussing future single-level games (Pulp Fiction rumor, Elwyn's Bond); emphasizes layout and rules matter more than verticality

  • Toy Story wizard mode is extremely difficult to achieve; most players struggle with the super loops requirement

    high confidence · Joel and Carl both report they could not hit three super loops in a row on their machines, despite multiple attempts; Joel finally achieved it at a bar location

Notable Quotes

  • “Recovery skills are almost more important than rule knowledge. Rule knowledge will get you the points faster. But if you don't have the flipper skills or the recovery skills, you could know the rules but you don't last as long.”

    Carl D'Angelo @ ~7:00-8:00 — Directly addresses competitive pinball fundamentals and what separates top players; validates previous episode discussion about tournament meta

  • “For initial sales theme is more important yes by far. But for the long-term sales it needs the mechs and those unique moments.”

    Carl D'Angelo @ ~22:00 — Clarifies market dynamics in pinball manufacturing; balances previous episode's criticism that mechs don't matter

  • “The way it's integrated and the way you destroy the bridge and it does a whole multi-second animation where it slowly collapses just makes that mech so worth it.”

    Carl D'Angelo @ ~24:00 — Specifically validates Godzilla's bridge mech implementation; indicates animation quality impacts mech perception value

  • “I don't know how Keith found a way with the bill of materials that he had to build in all these mechs and still produce an incredible game that doesn't seem over cluttered.”

    Joel (host) @ ~27:00 — Praises Keith Elwin's design efficiency on Godzilla; suggests manufacturing constraints vs mechanical depth tension

  • “It really comes down to layout shots and rules for single level games. You can still have toys in them.”

    Carl D'Angelo @ ~32:00 — Defends single-level game viability; important context for upcoming Pulp Fiction and Elwyn's Bond discussions

  • “The code is so early that you really have to judge that game right now on the shots alone. Nothing else. Stranger Things when it came out the code was just so bare bones it just wasn't fun to play.”

    Carl D'Angelo @ ~34:00 — References code update quality as determining factor in early-release game reception; historical example with Stranger Things

Entities

Carl D'AngelopersonJoelpersonTompersonTravispersonGodzilla (pinball machine)gameKeith Elwinperson

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Positive reception to Godzilla as #1 Pinside game justified by balance of casual accessibility and deep competitive strategy

    high · Consensus from Carl and Joel that game deserves #1 ranking; praise for city combos, imposter shot, secret combos, stacking mechanics

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Recovery skills and playfield adjustment capability increasingly valued over pure rule knowledge at top tournament level

    medium · Carl D'Angelo (high-ranked tournament player) prioritizes recovery and adjustment; references to flipper consistency and mech handling

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Elwyn's Bond early code state was bare-bones; layout assessment limited to shot mechanics without rule depth, making early assessment difficult

    medium · Carl references Stranger Things early code disappointment; notes Bond code ahead of that but still lagging; judges on shots alone at Expo

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin demonstrates ability to integrate multiple complex mechs without playfield clutter; efficiently manages bill of materials

    high · Joel explicitly praises Elwin's design constraint handling; contrast with other multi-mech games that feel cluttered

  • ?

    event_signal: Freeplay Florida positioned as high-competitive-level tournament with strong field including top players; early forecasting of competitive intensity

    medium · Joel characterizes it as 'bloodbath'; Tom mentions Eric Stone and Ray Day competing; Carl initially planned to attend before canceling due to Chicago Expo

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.223

0:00
the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right here we go again tom are you ready yep good travis travis you ready i gotta get my beer ready all right i'm ready all right thank god here we go we we're three guys who like to talk and ball so we came up with the club our name we're joel and travis and we're talking ball and we call ourselves triple drink triple drink we're triple triple triple drink wonderful wonderful tom you look great man You look better now. You look glowing. I know last time we recorded. I had a haircut. Oh, yeah. If only the listeners could see what I get to see, you know. And I know last time we recorded, you had just come off of Expo, and I know you were pretty drained from streaming that. Before that, you had Super Series. So I just feel like maybe you finally had some time to be a little more rejuvenated and just alive, and you look great. Thanks. I'm a little more alert. Yeah. Travis, he just seems kind of not. I'm surprised he hasn't interrupted us yet. I mean, Trav, what's going on, man? I wasn't listening. I was getting my beer ready. Oh, okay. Of course. Yeah, focusing on the beer consumption. I mean, do you want to participate sometime today? That's true. I was in the middle of drinking my beer. I was letting you talk. Okay. Well, you just focus on that then, and we'll just try to do what we do best, you know, Tom. So I don't know. There's not a ton of news. There's not a ton of stuff to get into, but I mean, let's start. Well, okay. So one thing I want to discuss actually is I actually had a chance to play a few games that I haven't played recently. There's a bar. There's Rec Bar. It's an arcade bar. And Travis, are you fine if we talk about this? Okay, yeah. Let's just settle. Let me get another beer, Joel. Go ahead. Another beer. Okay, we're two minutes into this podcast and you're already on your second beer. All right, we're letting the cat out of the bag. Travis isn't here. today but all the listeners for the last two minutes i think probably believed it i think i think it's very clear tom you let us know you do agree with me that travis is i mean he really he needs a little liquid courage to get through these podcasts recently he actually just passed out so okay we need to do the podcast without him well the weird thing is i we've tried to record triple dream before with just two people and there was one time tom that you had to sit out and it just didn't feel right and so triple drain needs three people so when we learned that travis couldn't record tonight the reason Travis couldn't record tonight is because one of his 18 kids is having a birthday and then and then he has Freeplay Florida coming up and Thanksgiving next week and we didn't want to put this off for like three four weeks we're like let's just go ahead and record a podcast so Tom and I put our heads together and we're like if we have a chance to I don't know if the word replace is the right word but I think upgrade if we have a chance to upgrade Travis definitely an upgrade definitely an upgrade so what does Travis bring to the table it's not much but what he does bring to the table he's i mean he's a solid content creator and he's a solid tournament player so the goal was let's find a better content creator and a better tournament player and i don't know about you but carl d'angelo was first guy i thought of so carl carl thank you very much for being on here tonight thanks thanks thanks for the intro that was great yep i will tell you your name has come up multiple times in the last few episodes because um you keep winning everything so or doing very well you've placed very well your tournament play in the last few weeks has been outstanding so well done thank you yeah i had a good october i at super series i didn't win any of the tournaments specifically but yeah getting the overall was fantastic overall was great and and over the course of october tom how many times have you retired from pinball like 10 10 okay so maybe if you call your you're sucking some of the mojo from you i know travis I don't know how pleased Travis was. He said he played well enough that Monaco, I think, was proud of him. I think. I don't know. But well done, Carl. I will say, as somebody – I mean, I'm not there with you. I'm not there watching you in person play these tournaments. But I will say I was checking in on – I like checking in on people that I know. And obviously, I know you, Carl. So seeing you over the course of Super Series, it's like, dang, Carl is – he's got this consistency thing figured out.
Toy Story (pinball machine)
game
Elwyn's Bondgame
Rec Barorganization
Iron Man Premiumgame
Rush (pinball machine)game
Big Lebowski (pinball machine)game
Abe Flipsperson
Freeplay Floridaevent
Super Seriesevent
Chicago Expoevent
Pinsideorganization
Ray Dayperson
Deadpool (pinball machine)game
Stern Pinballcompany
  • $

    market_signal: Theme drives initial game sales; mechs drive long-term retention and premium tier adoption

    medium · Carl explicitly states this market dynamic; Joel's wife drawn to Toy Story by theme but engaged by mechs; matches broader industry analysis

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Carl D'Angelo demonstrates breadth of competitive and streaming expertise; selection as Travis replacement validates credibility as top-tier pinball figure

    high · Won Super Series overall in October; consistently places well in tournaments; operates IE Pinball streaming platform; episode hosts note his recent tournament success

  • ?

    product_strategy: Pro vs Premium tier differentiation validated through playstyle: Premium versions feature mechs that enable different strategies (lock positions, diverter interactions) affecting tournament viability

    medium · Tom prefers Premium Jurassic Park for easier raptor pit lock in tournament; Iron Man Premium diverter changes ball routing; Rush ramp addition changes shot difficulty

  • ?

    product_strategy: Godzilla Premium features three significant mechs (bridge with animation, building, Mechagodzilla rotisserie) that noticeably improve experience over Pro version

    high · Joel states he purchased Premium after borrowing Pro; Carl validates bridge mech exceeds expectations; both note animation quality matters

  • ?

    product_concern: Toy Story super loops mechanic represents potential design flaw; geometry variance between machines creates inconsistent difficulty

    high · Both Joel and Carl unable to hit three loops in a row; Joel suspects shared shock ramp geometry at jump area; different machine allowed success

  • ?

    product_strategy: Godzilla has confirmed future code updates planned by designer Keith Elwin

    medium · Tom states 'Keith has alluded to unlocking or there's more coming to the game'; indicates post-release development commitment

  • ?

    technology_signal: Single-level game design emerging as viable category; design depth comes from shot layout and rules, not vertical playfield complexity

    medium · Carl argues single-level viability; multiple upcoming single-level games announced (Elwyn's Bond, Pulp Fiction rumor, TNA); counter to historical multi-level standard

    • 4:36
    Got to try and take the kids down. I don't know what else to say. Yeah, last episode we brought that up, that Travis is basically saying that, that how do you compete? Like what is your – I don't know. When you go into – Travis was basically saying something along the lines of like flipper skills are somewhat even at this point. Like I don't know. A lot of these top high-end players, they all have the same physical abilities or similar physical abilities, but it really comes down to like rule knowledge and knowledge of the game. I mean what do you feel? Do you agree with that statement or what are your thoughts on the current younger group of tournament players doing so well? Some of that, some of that. But at the same time, a lot of it does have the does come down to flipper skills and recovery skills, especially. I think recovery skills are almost more important than rule knowledge. Rule knowledge will get you the points faster.
    5:31
    But if you don't have the flipper skills or the recovery skills. You could, you know, you could know the rules. You know where to get the points, but you don't last as long as someone that can, that does have the skills. Yeah, that makes sense. So you're OK. So it may not be so important that you hit the shot the first time you take it. It's more important that you can recover if you miss the shot. I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a lot of that. This is a weird analogy, but I remember a coworker of mine is really good at bowling. And he said the key to bowling is not getting the strike. It's always picking up the spare. So if you don't hit it perfect on the first shot, being able to collect yourself and then hit it the second time or recover and then pick up the spare. So interesting. I mean, Tom, being that you've come out of retirement again for pinball, do you have anything? I've learned not to watch you, Joel. That is the key. Carl, I'm assuming you've seen the Abe Flip video. I saw the Abe Flip video. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I don't really know what to say other than thank you, Abraham, for doing that. He sent that to me privately and he just said, hey, I've been watching your streams. He's over, I think, in like Germany. And so he watches them after the fact. And he's like, hey, I saw you were draining in a very consistent manner last stream. And I just wanted to show you this. And here's some suggestions on things you could do differently. I thought it was funny. I thought it was a funny video. I sent it to Tom and Travis. Travis ate it up and so and I was like all right Tom Tom Tom does all of our social media and I was like go ahead and post it you know people get a kick out of that then our good friend Steve Bowden put you know repost it on fun with bonus which I think every ball enthusiast is a fan of and then Abe made it public on his thing and I think last time I checked like 600 something people have watched it and I don't know are enjoying the misery of me draining over and over again but it's not the misery though it's it's a learning experience right it was It absolutely was. And I will tell you, the question is, have you learned anything from it? I have. What I did learn is the very first game I played of Deadpool again, I drained in the exact same way. And it's like, wow, that is clearly a habit. Like, it is clearly a habit that if I'm not thinking, if I'm not if I'm not aware that, oh, I just hit the Wolverine shot. It's coming around the left. Like, I need to actually try to do something different. And that's where I was actually trying to do like a live catch or depending on the speed, try to let it dead bounce over to see what that does. Just trying different things, trying to find what works.
    8:01
    And things got better. Things got better once I once I started to adjust. But that's something I mean, as you guys are both tournament players, I feel like, Carl, you're kind of hinting at that. Like it's the adjustments and learning from your mistakes. I feel like that is what at least in the tiny bit of tournament play I have. I feel like that's really what sets some of you guys apart because it doesn't matter how good you are at the game at your house or at the bar you play. The game is going to play totally different at whatever tournament you're playing at. So learning that game, learning how to adjust to its uniqueness. I don't know. I mean, exactly. You'll you'll hear a lot of players say they play worse on a game that they own in a tournament because they, you know, they're used to their game. They're used to their shots and when they, they have a hard time adjusting. And that's where those recovery skills are, you know, being able to adjust quickly makes a huge difference. So how do you feel about, you know, our good friend Tom over here, who has a home field advantage at District 82, you know, that lives and breathes these machines, you know, he's got all this time to learn all the ins and outs. And then Mr. IE Pinball flies in from California and picks it up. No problem. I mean, those get shuffled around. Like I watched a video of Eric, you know, moving things around for the tournaments with the winter tournaments coming out. So the games change over time. Nothing's the same, you know, month after month. Okay. Well, very cool. Very cool. Well, tournament stuff, I know, well, Expo, you did well in Expo as well, Carl, so well done there. And then Freeplay Florida is coming up. I know Travis is going to that. Tom, are you going to that? Yes. Yep. And then, Carl, are you making that trek? I am not. I had it planned, but I canceled it after going to Chicago. Gotcha. So, Travis, you have a chance. You have a chance to do better this weekend is what it sounds like. So, thank you, Carl. Sounds like it's going to be a bloodbath at Freeplay Florida. There are a lot of good people going to be showing up there. I'm assuming Eric will play, Eric Stone? Yes. Yeah, that'll be good. Is Ray Day going? Yep. Yeah, nice. And I'm assuming Neil. You taking Neil with you, Tom? Yeah, Neil's getting a break from school. There we go. November may be your month, Tom. This may be, you know, you may come back stronger than ever. You never know. Well, okay, so go ahead. I was going to say, at least you get to focus just on the tournament this time and not have to stream. That's true. So that's another thing. I mean, we'll probably plug it a little later, but Carl, you do InDisc and you do it incredibly well. You typically don't play, though, in InDisc, right? I mean, you focus entirely on streaming. Right, typically. I'm going to try and play in one or two of the events this year just because the new WAP rules are just so insane. I can't remember what Indisc is going to be, but it's going to be in the stratosphere. And basically, if I don't play in that, I may not have a chance in States. That's how many points that's going to be worth. TGP. Yeah. I have no idea, to be honest. I sent it over to Josh, and he tells me what it's worth. Okay. Yeah. Well, I hope you can, because at least from afar watching it, it seems like one of the best, if not maybe one of the best tournament that I've seen. So I feel bad if you can't participate in it. That's one thing. I mean, props to Tom for always participating in the Super Series stuff. But I know it wears him out between the streaming and the TV and the playing. But, you know, I hope you get an opportunity to play as well, Carl. Crossing my fingers this time. Yeah. All right. Well, yes, stuff I did want to talk about. So thing number one, Godzilla. I finally got it. My Godzilla premium is here. And I will tell you, I know the two of you guys both have one. It is insane. It is so freaking good. So question number one, Carl, what is it like every time you reset Godzilla and hear the machine call your name?
    11:47
    I love it, but it's embarrassing at the same time, right? It is. Keith's making fun of me, Keith and all the team for every reset I do. Absolutely. But it's fantastic. It really is. The first time I heard that, that was awesome. That's a game designer using their power to the greater good. I just think it's hilarious to hear. But I know both of you, I mean, Carl, you've blown it up. I think there was a time that I was borrowing from Flippin' Out. I was borrowing a Pro. And at the same time, you had either an LE or Premium. I don't remember. And it's like there were people watching you stream it and blowing it up for whatever, $10 plus billion and then rolling over to mine. I'm cracking, you know, $500 million and feeling good about it. But any thoughts on it? Like overall thoughts on Godzilla. I mean, what comes to mind when the two of you guys play this game? Do you feel it's Keith's best? Do you feel, I don't know, do you feel it deserves the number one spot on pin side? I think it does deserve the number one spot. It strikes that perfect balance of being good for casual players, good for basically any skill level. There's nothing to do on the surface, but there's a massive amount just beneath that for the players like myself that really want to dive in to the deeper strategies. Yeah. You're talking city combos. You're talking about the imposter shot. You're talking about the secret combos, the stack. Like, I don't know. There's what I thought I knew Godzilla. And now that I have it, I'm realizing, like, holy crap, there is so much more here that I need to learn. Exactly. You can keep going in that list. It just keeps on rolling over and over. Tom, how are you feeling about it? You've had it a while now. It's awesome. Yeah. It's an incredible game for sure. I'm very excited to have it. I'm very excited to dive in. And I know there's more coming. That's what's crazy is Keith has alluded to unlocking or there's more coming to the game, which is absolutely insane. So overall, anybody that's listening to this, what I what I think is cool is this is the first game that I've borrowed the pro. And to be honest, I completely fell in love with it. I loved the pro and it had no max. It had no max, but the game still shot so well. The code just kept drawing me back. The audio package, visual, everything. And so I felt it was worth owning the game again. but not only that upgrading and the upgrade was for all the mechs. And I know last, last episode, we kind of talked about this and Carl, I'm curious about your opinion because Travis was really harping on the fact that he feels that mechs aren't what sell games. It's theme that sells games. And I actually had a few people reach out to me and email us kind of complaining about that, that they're like, they don't want to undervalue mechs. Like mechs are still really important. And I will say now that I have Godzilla and I feel like this premium just added three insane mechs between the building the bridge and the rotating mecha godzilla i'm really feeling that like the like i agree that i think the mechs are super important i don't know i mean carl you heard that discussion were you agreeing were you disagreeing i mean what are your thoughts on kind of the importance of mechs in modern pins i mean i think for initial sales theme is more important yes by far you know initial sales that first month a game can get by completely on theme but for the long-term sales it needs the mechs and you know it needs those unique moments and pinball i what caught me off guard on godzilla was the bridge i really didn't think you know when we saw the announcement i didn't think much of the bridge you know it's just this you know little thing you know drops the ball but the way it's integrated and the way it you know when you destroy the bridge and it's it does a whole um you know multi-second animation where it slowly collapses just it makes that mech so worth it yeah whereas i thought it was just going to be a throwaway mech to be honest which is hilarious that a game could have a throwaway mech i mean i think there are certain games some modern games these days only have one mech and to have the the magna grab shot which is such a unique shot and then the building is insane but then i it's like each i feel like the building that could have been it and people would have been happy i think the mecha Godzilla rotisserie thing could have been it. And that people could have been happy. So how Keith found a way with the bomb, the bill of materials that he had, that he could build in all these mechs and still produce an incredible game that doesn't seem over cluttered. I don't, I don't know. I mean, um, I don't know. I mean, Tom, do you like, you've played, you play the pro Godzilla a lot in tournament. And then you compare that to your Ellie at home. Like, Do you have a preference? Do you feel that one does it better, better than other? I mean, what's your, I, I actually think the LE is a little easier to play. Um, but, uh, just, just the size of the spinner on the right hand side, uh, for Mechagodzilla. But, um, I, I like both versions of the game. Like if I, if I just had a pro, I'd be extremely happy with just having a pro yeah yeah well we brought up this conversation or the idea of max because the rumored next pulp fiction is supposed to be a single level level game obviously elwyn's bond has been said that it's a single level game um tna just came out at almost a ten thousand dollar price point single level single level game do you feel like carl as a as a pinball buyer and player does that when you hear it's single level does that slow you down at all disappoint you at all or i mean i don't know what are you because you assume it's has less right it has less than a than another game well it has less vertical happening you know less less verticality or whatever you want to call that um it's just missing a couple ramps right i mean it's just plastic ramps or metal ramps two different shots it's it's not that big a deal to me It really comes down to layout shots and rules for, for single level games. Okay. And you can still have toys in them. Yeah. You know, like we heard, uh, Elwyn's is supposed to have a spinning disc in there, right? Uh, the odd job hat is what they announced, but, and a lot of drop targets everywhere. Yep. I don't know much else besides that. Right. Yep. I'm, I'm with you. I think it's just, um, I don't know. I, maybe it's bond. I don't, Carl, you, you had a chance to play bonded expo, I assume. Yeah. And we talked about it last episode. Travis's summary was basically the left side was the right side was pretty cool. I mean, he was I don't know. Tom, did I summarize that? Well, is that similar to how you felt? I don't. Yeah, pretty. Well, for me, yes. Yeah.
    18:23
    Yeah. Carl, what do you think of Bond's layout? Yeah I would agree mostly with the assessment You know that a game again that the code is so early that you really have to you have to judge that game right now on the shots alone you know nothing else um i look back to stranger things and when stranger things came out the code was just so bare bones it just wasn't fun to play yeah and i think bond is actually a little bit ahead of that but it you can still tell it's it's lagging stuff but i it has potential well i remember we talked about bond last episode and that kind of started the conversation of mechs or the importance of mechs because travis was basically saying after playing the premium bond in the pro bond he was all he thought the pro bond was better he's like the bond on a wand didn't really see the appeal to it the diverter that lock the rocket lock he's like yeah didn't really see and the underwater so it's like to him that was an instance where throwing in additional mechs didn't really necessarily make a better game that was his thought while something like godzilla seems totally different the additional mechs take a great game and make it even better and um i think there's a lot when you look at a bunch of the the reason even like rush you know i will say when i watch the rush reveal i thought pro those pros the way to go those that ramp and that that the dead end shot like i didn't see those as very important but now that i've played both um i definitely feel the added mechs really make that game better i don't i i know tom and tom's all tom like lays on his le almost every night yeah and wax i don't know carl do you have a preference on rush i would love i would love to hear you say you hate it just to see i just bought one it's sitting i haven't even turned it on yet it's sitting downstairs i need to it's on the list to play um so no i don't have a preference between the pro or the premium i haven't played enough of the game yet okay so to get a good sense of it um i think you will like it is my so it is my that's my guess based off of the the logic that ray and timmy built into that game i think you're going to eat it up especially carl if you need it there's a ray day did a uh baby's first i watched it i like that he did it it was good it was a good it was a good primer i got a primer on the game before going to Expo because I knew it was going to be in the Sternport Circuit and at Expo and I wanted to make sure that I knew at least a, you know, had a base level of knowledge. And you got to the Wizard Mode the first time. And I did get to the Wizard Mode. Yeah. The first game my host scanned in so she got all the achievements. She was happy. I was happy. It was a good time.
    21:07
    Speaking of getting to the Wizard Mode so we're going to hit on, well we'll just go into it. So I was serious. Actually, my wife and I, we kind of had a vacation away from the kids over the weekend. And we did a whole bunch of different activities. We went to Mammoth Cave, which is insane if anybody's in Kentucky. That cave is mammoth. It's huge. It's insane. It's so cool. We did a bunch of cool stuff. But Sunday night, we had nothing to do. And there's a bar. I think it's called Rec Bar.
    21:33
    And they had like 70 or 80 pins. It was awesome. And went in there and spent some time. My wife had a few drinks. So she was actually interested in playing pinball. And it was cool. We walk into the pinball room and the game she walked right up to, the very first game she walked up to was Toy Story. She saw Toy Story. She's like, oh, Toy Story. We go up, we put in two players, hit start. And she goes, did you ever have this one? I was like, yes, this was in our basement for over a month. You know, like that's how little she cares about pinball here at home. But I know when Zach and I streamed it, he literally got to the wizard mode the night we streamed it. Now, to be fair, he had already had it for like a week or two. It took me the whole time, probably three weeks I had it, to finally get to the wizard mode. Carl, I know it was a struggle, but I know you finally got to the wizard mode. It's the super loops. That's what, you know, it's just the super loops. So we talked about this, and this is what I will say. So super loops, it's one of the seven things you have to qualify to get to a wizard mode. You either hit three in a row or you have to hit it, what, it's like 14 times after you qualify super loops? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Something like that. it is a huge pain in the butt. And on the one I had, I could not do three in a row. Carl, the one you owned, could you do three in a row? I could not. No, sir. Everybody listening, right? That Ray day, Mr. Ray day that listening, Carl D'Angelo on his could not do three in a row. Cause that's what everybody in TPA is giving me a hard time. Just hit three in a row. He's gig. What I will say is I went right up to the one in rec bar. That was my only goal. I was like, I want to see if I can get three in a row. The very first ball, three in a row. Boom, boom, boom. So it's possible. I think it's possible, but I don't know. Carl, you're one to tinker with your games. I have no idea why the geometry on one would make it so much easier than another. If I had it longer, I would have torn apart the ramp in the back because the back shock is kind of shared. So the loop has a little jump on it. I assume it was just something there right around the jump area. I don't know, but boy, did it piss me off.
    23:32
    It really did. But we had a good time on that. I mean, my wife, it's a great theme. She was drawn to a good light show. Did she ask when you're buying it then? No, no. Sorry. Not like Travis and Monica, who still own one. But all I had to do was show her the Duke Caboom ramp, and that was what she was going for. That was the toy that drew her in. And we played one or two games until she finally hit it. But what was cool is when she went to, I forget, she went to buy another drink. Right next to it was an Iron Man Premium. And this is what kind of sparked my thought of this, this idea of a game with or without mechs. I've played Iron Maiden Pro many times and had a good time. Like, it's a good shooter, feels good. I'd never had a chance to play the premium. And now that I have, I really like the premium. Like, that sarcophagus lock, I don't know. Maybe I'm just a sucker for diverters. You know, when you shoot a ramp and you're expecting the ball to come back and it doesn't because it diverted somewhere else, that's pretty sick. the ramp lifting up it's just those those when the game changes when the geometry of the game changes for a particular shot i don't know it just it stood out to me where i was like okay well done keith like i i don't do you guys have a preference when it comes to iron maiden pro versus premium not really i i mean i own the pro so i'm completely fine with playing a pro yeah i have the pro for a while i'm trying to get a premium so there you go i'll take the premium uh I find the premium a little more difficult, right? Because the, like the tumor words, you know, are on the left ramp instead of the right orbit. Yeah. And it makes me wonder. So that's, that's a Keith game that the, I mean, I'm liking the premium of Godzilla. I think I'm preferring the premium on iron maiden.
    25:23
    I like the premium on Jurassic park just because I'm a sucker for that T-Rex, but I do know some people complain about that, that they feel like the mouth kind of rejects. And then the Raptor pits kind of take it or leave it. I don't know. Do you guys have a preference when it comes to that?
    25:40
    I'd rather play a premium in a tournament. Why? Just because you can lock the ball easier in the Raptor pit. In the Raptor pit? You can, like, backhand it into it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and then you get the additional 2X also. It's easier to see that you've got the 2X during that Raptor multi-ball when you lock the ball behind there. The Pro just, you can still get it, but it doesn't hold the ball. Right. Just like the Metallica Snake, you know, it holds it in there. And I know, but Avengers, Avengers is a game that I borrowed from flipping out and had a Pro, and I had a great time on it. But that's another one where I think the premium, because of the lock, the disc that raises up, instead of having to hit the, what is it, like the fat boy ramp in the back to start the mode, you just have to kind of drop it. So I like that because I could be a little more strategic on when I want to hit the ramp while I think the spinning disc, sometimes the ball just falls into it. I mean, it's a big gaping hole in the middle of the play field. So sometimes you might start a gym before you want to. Do you feel like that's a game, another L1 game, where the mechs help or hurt it with the Proverse Premium on Avengers? You still have yours, Tom, right? I can see it in the background. I have my L.E. Yep.
    26:50
    I don't know. I mean, Pin Clash, did you feel that there was an advantage with the Proverse Premium on that? Carl makes you turn off that stuff. Exactly, yeah. I had to make them as close as possible.
    27:03
    Okay. All right. Well, no, I don't know. I still don't know. I think the more that I've talked about the thought, I'm still team mech. Give me the mechs. I want the mechs. Everybody wants, if they're going to pay the money, they want to have mechs that ooh and aw them. But at the same time, yeah, we all do agree. It's not the mechs that sell the game. It's the theme. And then, yeah. But what sold me on Godzilla was not the theme. It was the mechs and the code and the shots and all the other stuff. So, well, cool. Other games that I played, my wife was really drawn to Big Lebowski. She's not a Big Lebowski fan. I think she's seen it one time in her life. But the world under glass that Big Lebowski has to offer is insane. I mean, there's so many mechs in that game. It took me multiple games to show her all the mechs in the game. Between the bowling alley down below, watching the rug move back, getting the car to swing out on the upper play field to bash that. There's a lot in that game. Have either of you spent any considerable time on Big Lebowski? Like two or three games. Yeah. That shows. I would love to see more because apparently they just released a bigger code update. Unfortunately, though, my Big Lebowski experience, my wife was like, this game's awesome. She's like, look at these things and look at this. She was just blown away with the mechs. She was blown away in the theme integration of the game. unfortunately we played probably three games on it and two of those it crashed like straight up two player games put two dollars in two player games middle of the ball game like there was one point where i drained it didn't know i drained i i'm like i'm seeing it in the trough i shook it to see if it wasn't settled correctly tilted out and then it was stuck and just tilt and a tilt animation we got the tech and the guy comes over and i was like yeah i explained he goes nah this is just some stupid dutch people that don't know how to make a good game that was the text response literally turned off the game turned it back on opened the coin door and gave us two credits and walked away i was like wow okay tell me how you really feel kind of thing and then we start our next game and it was a similar thing where we're up top and my flippers just died like just flippers just died you sure you weren't playing halloween okay carl said it not me all But there was no Halloween there. I watch the Stone videos, okay? Yeah. Oh, I know. Eric's response to Halloween. I wish there would have been a Halloween there. I still get people telling me how great Halloween is. I know Tim Lee with Poor Man reached out to me, and he said Halloween is probably his most played game at his house right now. Obviously, he threw a big Halloween party, but he's like, to novice players, it's an incredible theme. The atmosphere is really cool. There's great mechs in it. Like, they were just drawn to it. But Tim also told me, like, GNR gets a ton of plays at his house and Stranger Things. So those are the games that really draw him in. It goes back to theme, doesn't it? It's all theme. But he said Halloween, he's like the butt pretzel. If you can get up there, like, he feels the butt pretzel is incredible. Carl, you disagree. I'm shaking my head. Yeah, I know. I completely disagree with that. The geometry on the shot is just not right to me, in my opinion. I think Tim said something that he said some of the poor men are giving him a hard time because he thinks it's one of the best shots in pinball is the butt pretzel. He freaking loves it.
    30:20
    Weird Al has a very similar shot, and Weird Al does it a lot better, in my opinion. Now, Carl, do you have Weird Al at Oxbow? I really like that game. Yeah, it's a fun game. It really is. Now, do you still have the P3? No. No, I had it because I was fixing it for Shane over at Ace Kogi. Okay. Got it working and sent it back over to him. So it's out of the house. But I had it for a good two months, I think. played a good deal weirdo what were your thoughts in like overall of i don't know like mechanically are you enjoying the p3 or i mean there's all the shots are in the back third does that wear on you after a while or i don't know uh the shots in the back there didn't wear on me that much and that surprised me it's something i didn't really think of um the game is fun i do enjoy the game i like the rules the animations i and a little too easy it's it's a little on the easy side but at the same time it's not so much like i i'd put it definitely more difficult than toy story well yeah well i mean i was playing them around the same time so that's why i guess i i have that comparison in my head um i i'm i'm still i i hate saying it but i'm still not a fan of the flipper mechs on the P3. And I don't like the button arrangement. I want to be able to stage. I understand why they put the flippers on separate buttons, to make it easier for new people to control them individually. When I was at Expo, the gentleman who was there, actually, this was in the morning before it opened, he was there and I was talking to him. and he asked me he goes do you want it the standard way or do you want it where just one button controls your your flippers and i said i'll take the one button you know so he went in there and changed it um so i don't know that might make it more enjoyable to you that feel more natural right and you can do that but you can't still can't stage them then okay because there's not a double leaf switch in there and so i i actually when i had the game here i took off the button boxes and i tried to add a double leaf switch into it but there's not enough physical space in there so you'd have to print up you know the 3d print a larger button box which puts it even further outside of the cabinet i don't know how natural that would feel okay and i do remember that because i think it's five flippers like one of the flippers you had to flip but i that Yeah, the upper playfield.
    32:59
    What I found interesting is when I played one recently at, what is it, North End Pub up in Lafayette, the upper flippers, I mean, it amazes me with novice how upper flippers are invisible. They have no concept that there's an upper flipper on a game. Right. But the P3 ones are even more hidden. And if it's on a separate button, there's no way, like, I don't know. I just, I don't know if that has to be a common problem for a novice to step up and literally have no idea that there's upper flippers. Um, unless it screams it at you somehow. I don't, I don't know. Um, did you, was that ever something? Cause visually people have complained about that. Like Carl, you know, the plastic kind of hides the upper flippers. That's just a feel thing that you learn after a while. Cause there's no visual cue of where that flipper is. Uh, look at the flipper rubber. That's your visual cue. You can kind of see that under the plastic. But yeah, totally. They are hidden by the plastic. So what was your thought then of the germs mode? Because that's something that I do think is really cool. It's very unique, obviously, to the P3 to have the wall come up and then you're hitting moving graphics. You're not they're not physical things you're interacting with. I mean, is that was that a mode that you thought like this is cool, like this is really neat or just kind of like I want to go back to physical.
    34:18
    I enjoyed it. It's a fun mode. It's it's it's nice being able to hit things just in the middle of the play. Yes, absolutely. At the same time, blocking off the rest of the play field makes it. I always wanted to just hurry up and get out of that mode. Oh, OK. It is definitely more deadly because it's yeah. The ball's hitting a wall and coming right back at you. Yeah. And after I figured out, you know, OK, shoot from the right, shoot to the left and just don't use the upper flip or let it come back down. It's generally pretty safe at that point. So once I figured out that trick, it wasn't that big a deal to get through it. So would you put a P3 game in disc?
    34:58
    Put me on the spot here. I'm just curious. Do you feel that it's tournament ready? One of the main reasons I'm going to say no is because you can trap a ball beneath the upper flipper.
    35:12
    Okay. And just hold it there and never let it go. So during multi-ball, you can skillfully get a ball behind either of those two uppers and never let them out.
    35:23
    So you would have to, if you put that in a tournament, you would probably print some part or something to put behind the flipper to keep you from being able to do that. You'd have to do something. Yeah. But I know the game can also detect that the ball is there, so I don't know why they haven't programmed it to raise the flipper if a ball is trapped behind there. The real question is, would he put a Halloween at it? well that's you know don't ask me that jim loves halloween okay okay so he's got one in his house i played at his halloween party because i want to see because he was he's talking all about it and i want to see okay maybe his place better than mine sure same thing um but he loves it so i i so could maybe could at some point jim loves his spooky games i mean you know like halloween style spooky games not that i do remember uh alice cooper being at it right so yeah and that held up the whole time yeah pretty much yeah i played well well pin clash is your is your child uh carl so you have control over the game so i'm assuming toy story is gonna be yep yep toy story got it yep heads up toy story it's either toy story halloween you gotta pick one yeah so yeah well cool um other games that we played one thing i thought was funny um was well alien she saw alien she's like that looks awesome let's play that alien she was bored of it almost immediately and it's just because you can tell that that game is super atmospheric like the lighting is really good but when you're in a bar you can't hear it and that's a game that I mean I walked away from that going I would love to spend more time in this game but not in a bar like I feel like you gotta have that at home have either of you played Halloween at all to any extent I played it when it first came out um there was one in madison and of course you know stuff wasn working on it that was the highway version and then uh the last time i played i played a couple games at expo just kind of feeling it out i thought it was okay you know i i'm it's not something i'd add to my collection yeah um i don't particularly like many wide body games i like a few of them but i think that's one thing that like hurts that game it's just oh yeah carl have you spent time with alien at all i've spent a little bit of time on it uh more the highway version than the pinball brothers version um i did stream the bit of the pinball brothers but uh we kept having issues with the game it was right when that was released like one of the first ones to come out um but the game yeah like you said it's very atmospheric and you need to you know have the sound cranked up lights turned down even if it makes it a little hard to see things yeah um but the rules are great i think uh joe schober did a great job on the rules the layout has a couple issues to me like the upper right flipper i could never get the ball to feed to that flipper reliably you know because it comes off of the pop bumpers and it can go either to the right or the left yep all the copies i've played always go to the left they never feed to the right and that shot is so tight that i could never shoot the ramp to get the hyperspace multiple i think it's hyperspace right yeah i think so or hypersleep i don't know one of those two i think it's hypersleep i yeah i i know what you're saying i don't think i i think i hit that shot maybe one time and um one thing that did feel weird the flippers felt odd my wife even she's like these flippers are super sensitive do that is it i mean the flipper mechs themselves is it different is it like opto versus leaf switcher like something felt like you barely had to touch those flipper buttons and things were flipping was do you know carl you probably know um i don't know what they use on the cabinet but inside the game they use micro switches for all the targets instead of using leaf switches so they may have micro switches on the cabinet buttons as well i'm not certain of that though yeah it felt weird but i don't know but overall i mean those were all games that i i mean i came away it was a great night but all all you know somewhat newer games that i had a chance to put more time on and um i definitely enjoyed it the last thing was batman she saw batman the dark knight she was like well this looks pretty cool i was like well here just a second i walked her over one more row and then showed her batman 66 i was like this is the upgrade and she goes really like she almost she preferred the look of the regular dark knight and i was like why she goes well it had like the joker on it i was like so a joker action figure that's all you need and she's like well when i think about it i think of the joker and this one there isn't enough joker i was like okay i mean that's just that was her opinion um which i thought was funny and then i also experienced um there was another place we're at earlier in the day and there was there was three pinball machines there was this kind of flea market and one of them was a Deadpool LE. They had a Deadpool LE sitting there. Deadpool LE, Big Buck Hunter. I thought of you, Carl. I always do. When I see Big Buck Hunter, I think of you and Nick Lane because I know Nick Lane with Buffalo loves that. A Star Trek and that was it. Those are the three that were there. And what was funny to me was Deadpool. Somebody was playing it the entire time and it was normally like, I don't know, somebody like kids, like Deadpool. I get it. I think Deadpool on location must crush. but um i went to i went to play and a dad walks up with his daughter and he's trying to explain to her pinball you know he doesn't know the turn you know the flappers and this and this he puts money in and he starts pounding this was a star trek starts slapping the action button he's like what's going on and i was like the start button's down here and i reached down to hit the start button for him and they drain one ball and he's like well that was fun i was like you have two more balls he's like oh okay and comes back up and and then one ball drained quick and he's like oh that was a fast one he starts to walk away i was like no ball save was on you know it's like the simple things that, that we all take for granted. Like, I don't know. I almost feel bad for Stern or JGP or any of these. Like, how do you teach somebody where the start button is? But I mean, they already make it blink brightly, you know, but it's still, I don't know. I don't know how they do that. So those were my overall pinball experiences over the weekend. I do. Did you guys play, happen to play anything recently that really stood out? Obviously these are all games that I've suggested. No, nothing, nothing new. All right. Well, we weren't going to – the goal was – like I said, there wasn't a ton of news. So we decided I think it's time to do what some people feel is our best segment. We rarely do it. I think it's Travis's favorite segment, so you'll probably be a little annoyed that we're doing it. But hey, Travis, do you want to do this with us? Okay, yeah. Let's just settle. Let me get another beer, Joel. Go ahead. Okay, okay. We'll wait for you to get your beer. We're going to do a triple combo. So here we go.
    42:07
    Welcome to Triple Burger. How can I help you? Yeah, can I get the combo, please? Did you want the single, the double, or the triple? I think I'll have the triple combo.
    42:20
    Yeah. Are you done? Yep. Pull ahead, please. All right. Well, shout out to Jason and his wife, once again, for recording that for us. But, yeah, so triple combo, it's where we break down a game three ways. So essentially a novice perspective or a novice way to play the game, how to, like, complete the game, kind of like a wizard mode, and then how to address the game in a tournament. And I know, Tom, you still own GNR. I think it's the red game behind you, right? Is that what I'm seeing all the way in the back? No, it's in the other room, Joe. Oh, what's the red game? Way in the back, that's X-Men. It's red? Oh, you have the Magneto one? Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. Carl, I'm not lying to you. I trust you. Carl's background is like a forest scene. So, I mean, that's really it's really nice, Carl. Yeah, we are. We break down the game three ways. So I know Tom still owns the game. And then, Carl, I know you stream the heck out of GNR. I know you were testing. Pin Monk had a bunch of Flipper fans. You were testing different stuff, Diverter fans, all that thing. So I know you've spent a ton of time on GNR. So so I actually thought GNR would be a fun game to talk through.
    43:24
    We've done a bunch of Stern. So time to give JJP's a love. Should be a good time. So we're going to kind of tag team this. I'll go ahead and do the novice part. So novice part would be just your average Joe stepping up to GNR. What is it that they need to do to experience something fun in the game? And in my opinion, the goal is to get them into a song as quickly as possible. I will say, though, there are seven things they have to do to get into a song. um jjp was smart though because if you every time you drain a ball they give you it's like two or three of those things automatically if you haven't gotten to a song yet so the seven things are you have to collect the seven band members the two keyboard shots are just right there kind of in the front in front of the scoop duff which is the base is up you got to go up the upper left and then kick a ball up up onto the base ramp um axle deals with the um the rollover lanes in the back Slash is the spinner with the top hat You have to do that a certain number of spins Frank Frankie I think is the drummer That's all about pop bumper hits or you can Hit the right ramp which is the drumstick ramp And then I forget the Rhythm guitarist's name but that's The kind of the middle spinner shot which to be Honest was like one of my favorite shots I really enjoyed How that shot kind of squiggled back But if you hit those Seven shots and I will say they do A really good job communicating if you're in a track mode, it actually flashes kind of the seven different zones. So if you walk somebody up to it, you can kind of let a track mode kind of tell you how to do that.
    44:58
    But that's how you collect all seven band members. If you want to just show them because it's a fun shot and feels good, you can show them how to hit the left ramp and then lock a ball into the guitar neck. I mean, that is kind of a satisfying, cool shot. But once you do that, if you can help somebody through to get all seven band members, then all they have to do is hit the center scoop Once they're in the center scoop, they can pick whatever song they want and just be ready to enjoy the light show because the song, I mean, they really do an exceptional job of the experience, the concert experience. So if you can help somebody get into a song mode or coach them through, that's how a novice player in my mind is going to enjoy that game. Now, once they come out of the song and it'll be a multi ball when they get into the song. So it's that should be fun for them. But it is it's not super approachable in my mind. You know, there are plenty of other games that have very accessible, cool features that are not far from the start button for novice to experience. GNR, there's a little bit of depth that you have to do to get to that song. But I don't know. Do you guys agree with that? Do you do you agree with from a novice? Am I missing something that a novice could could enjoy? no no you're right about there i'd say there are a few multi balls so i've explained this before that gnr there it's kind of a two-stage thing you're either preparing for the song or you're in a song that's it preparing for a song or in a song so when you're preparing for a song there are four multi balls that you can do that will help you build the value of your song so there's a chance that a novice may step up and just kind of mistakenly fall into a multi ball that's very easy to do depending on what you hit in the game. Um, but otherwise, yeah, that's the main goal. Just how do we collect all seven guys as quickly or members as quickly as possible, get them into a song and then just have a great time. Um, so I think that's kind of it for the novice standpoint. So let's dive into, let's, let's approach the actual game. Like if you want to see as much of the game as possible, um, I don't know, maybe Tom, do you want to start us with that? Like if If your idea is like, I want to see all the stuff that JJP's put in this game, how do you approach seeing the breadth of the game, if that makes sense?
    47:25
    Well, I mean, you pretty much explained everything I was going to explain, Joel. Okay, so collect seven band members. Got it. Right. And I think really important from like a tournament standpoint would be going for those four multi-balls before you go into a song and really building those up. not only that but collecting the uh the patches by spelling uh gnr um so the patches are on the back of the back um the uh the backboard uh on the lcd display and those patches can do a lot to give you certain awards or uh like bonuses to yeah to build up so you know i i think that is a good strategy to do and then to um carl can probably explain a lot better than i can yeah so carl when you were like trying to see because there's what there's there's what is it four different albums so each album depending on what you do there's a mini wizard mode and then if you do all of them isn't there and there is there is an end wizard mode right it wasn't that was a goal yeah it was right yeah not in this lifetime that's right so when you were trying to do that what was your thought process because patches there are people that say ignore patches because grinding for patches is something that really started to wear me out on the game yeah because to collect the patches you have to spell gnr which is on the in lanes so the easiest way to do that is backhand the left ramp and then basically let it drain from the upper play field and just keeps moving around the letters and just keep doing that. I don't know. How did you attack patches, or what patches were you focusing in on? I mean, it depends on, again, tournament or wizard play. So if we're talking tournament still, it's going to be, I want to know if I can backhand that ramp to get those patches all day. And if I can, I'm going to go for the ones that give me the unlimited boosters, you know, the horn, the amp, the lights, and the firecracker. Those four. let you play the booster multiballs as much as you want between songs. So normally you can only play them once. Once you drain out, you can't play it until you play a song and go on. Those four, unlimited. So at that point, if I'm in a tournament, I want those four patches, and then I'll just be shooting the get two lanes lit, GNR or AM, and then get the last letter for AMP, and I'm in the multiball again. Most of the time it's just an alley pass over to AMP and then a two ball. You're saying tournament strat is don't even go into a song? Because the songs aren't guaranteed points. Oh, yeah, because if you drain out, it's all gone. Exactly, exactly. If you don't cash out or you miss the applause jackpot, those precious 15 seconds or so to hit the scoop at the end, you miss that. You've lost your entire jackpot and you've gotten a couple hundred thousand probably. So to explain people that don't know GNR, so yes, if you collect all seven band members, you hit the center scoop, boom, you're in a song. The whole point of once you're in a song is different albums display have different colors on what shots you're supposed to hit. And once again, the little monitor in the back of the play field does a really good job telling you what to hit. But once you're in the song, you just have to hit those shots. And it's not a number of shots thing. It's a timed mode. You're trying to get through the song. and once you get towards the end of the song if you hit enough shots you'll get an encore otherwise you have an applause jackpot which is like one last shot and boom you hit that and then you have an option you either keep playing or you cash well throughout the song there are times where you have to hit the scoop and you get the option you keep playing or you cash out i typically cash out carl i don't know how i don't think carl knows how to cash out on a game he will always push it but that's the whole point of the game is that risk reward constantly. Do you want to build or go away? And I would, I just assumed in a tournament strategy that is even more worrisome because you're not getting anything. You get no points if you drain before you cash out, but you're saying the strat is almost don't even go into a song. Just focus on the, the build stage. Exactly. I would focus on the boosters and stay in there. I mean, you'll get more points out of the songs, but you won't have the guaranteed points that the boosters give you you can't go into the song and not necessarily finish it and just like you were saying joel just cash out you know i'm at 10 million i could possibly get 40 million but you know depending on where all the other players are you might want to say i'm gonna cash out go back into doing those booster multi balls yeah yeah And the key is AMP never gets harder. It's only three letters every time. The other boosters take more shots to start, but AMP is always just the three letters. So AMP, those are the in-lane letters, and you can move those with the flipper. So that's where you're saying you back in the left ramp, you literally let the ball drain off the left ramp, and that will give you a letter. So you just do that or drain? Or there's a safer way, right, to get the ball back to your flipper? well there's there's the you know the left and right ramp feed the the left and right in lanes but the amp is the far left in lane you have to go up so you can go up to the base ramp you can do that or you can alley pass it oh wow i hadn't even thought about that so that's is that a so that strategy is that well first off have either of you guys played gnr in a tournament i actually have yeah and did you see that strategy being utilized focusing in on the the little mini multi balls or actually they were going into songs no well i mean there was some focus on it but you know by the time ball three came around uh it was it was time to go into a song but i will say on that particular copy um the flippers were really weak so it was hard making shots on the rams so that played a key factor and the the strategy of the game as well interesting okay so if that's the if that's the tournament strat which that's really interesting i that i guarantee some listener that i never even thought about that but so just figure out which patch it is to specifically amp amp is the main multi-ball because you just say you play it over and over again once you have the patch yeah four patches you gotta get all four yeah you have to get all four to get the unlimited yeah so you can't just get one patch four amp multi-ball and play that one unlimited right you need all you need that entire set oh well so it is a grind it is a grind to get all four yeah and if you can't backhand that left ram to you know just do the i call it patch factory okay if you can't do that then yeah you're going to be playing for songs you're going to be you want to lock the balls and get your biggest ball saver for for your song so that you can play as much as you can while in safety a ball saver and then cash out at the earliest possible interesting because i found myself um definitely trying to get there was one i think it was drum sticks or something that basically it doubled the value of the pops and then so there's certain there were certain songs that were switch hits so the goal is to just get it back in the pops anyways so i was trying to stack some of those patches and then i know if you got all four of the different sponsors that's a mold that's an extra ball so that was something i was always aware of and then i know pin monk was big on getting i think it was i tried to remember it was like t-shirt and poster which help you with the the song length or something or the length of your ball say i mean there's a lot of strategy there if you really want to pursue it well that's maybe okay so tournament strat you focus on the multi balls before the song but carl if you're trying to go for longevity and playing the game as as much as you can what how would you attack that right so if i going if i point pushing i going to do all the similar things i going to go for those four sponsors to get the extra ball i especially want fender as my first one okay because fender is the one that whenever you spot a band member it gives you another band member that's and that's what pin monk was probably telling you about yeah it's my guess because i'll get you to band frenzy quicker in the songs and frenzy increases the scoring yep now there's a lot of magic mojo whatever you want to call it with the scoring i still don't understand exactly what increases the song values or you know when you go into a song you have a value of it's between 10 and 200 200 it says max um and that determines the value of the points in a song you increase that value by doing well the booster multi-balls, getting certain patches, and so on. So as the game gets deeper and deeper, the songs become more valuable. If you get to an encore, it makes the next song even more valuable. So the value, it just keeps compounding on it. But again, all the math is in the background, so you don't see exactly what the scoring will be.
    56:47
    Wow. Okay. And at the same time, if you drain, it's all gone. that's the thing that I found when I streamed it is I would get, you know, two or three patches, the patches that I wanted to get. I get it. You know, I think I got everything built up. I'm like, this is the song I want to pick. It's a switch hit mode. I'm going to focus on this. I'm going in with four multi four balls. I had locked three. Here we go. Let's go. And then boom, like triple drain down to one ball, flub that and it's all gone. And it's like, well, ball two. So I get to start all that over again, you know, and it just, I will say there are some of the lowest lows I've ever had in pinball were on that game but then there was a time that I cashed out for me it was a big I don't even remember what it was but it was big it was a big jackpot for me and like actually hitting the shot and getting that was quite a feeling so I don't know I mean Carl you don't own you were just borrowing it or you own it so I owned it I still have it right now I'm putting it up on the on the block pretty soon though and so why is it leaving the collection it's time it's uh it's become a grind to me i actually haven't enjoyed playing it as much lately i mean it's a great game for any prospective buyer please buy my game yeah um no no i really with that that first year of own ownership i thoroughly enjoyed the game just because of the because it's the risk reward i just love tacking on as much risk as I could, you know, and I'd have those moments where I missed the applause jackpot in the end with the hundred million point jackpot list and it's gone. There's nothing. It's just gone. I move on to the next song. It's like you're dejected at that point. It's you'll know if you even want to play that next song. Yeah. Because that's where all the points were. It was in, you know, if you could get to the third song in a set, you know, two encores in a row, that third song would just it could just blow up the game. yeah you know two or three hundred million if especially if you got to estranged that was always why i was hoping it would push me into because estranged i always found was easy to keep going because the shots are on the targets a lot of them so you can constantly get out of balls and even though it's a really long song you keep getting out of balls over and over and by the end the jackpots are just insane yeah i'm gonna act like i know that feeling but i I don't know. I think I had a Jack. I think I, I got on core a handful of times, you know, to get even do a second song. So I don't have to do the grind of collecting the players again. I was like, yes, here we go. Let's get another song going. And, and just when I felt like I had the, the, when I, when you have that feeling of like, this is huge, this is huge. Just I have like three more shots I have to hit before I have a chance to cash out. Like, come on, do it, hit the shot. You know, it just, I don't know. It makes you it's, it's exhilarating. And that's, I know people that watch me streaming, they saw that. They saw that roller coaster of a ride. And I still feel like GNR for a bigger collection makes sense. It's such a unique experience.
    59:43
    I mean, Tom, it's still in yours. What's drawing you in? I mean, why is it still yours? He asks me this every episode. I know. I haven't turned it on in a while. But you still have it. You haven't sold it. Yeah. Neil wants to keep it. Oh, okay. So Neil likes it. No, I like it. I like Guns N' Roses music. I think the theme is definitely well integrated in the game. They did an amazing job with it.
    60:11
    I still like it. I wish it was a little less multi-ball intensive, but it is what it is. Yeah, I get it. And before I had GNR, I felt like Metallica had done the risk-reward thing extremely well. Like, I really thought that they had kind of set the bar. And then I got GNR and I was like, okay, this game is nothing but risk reward. I really enjoy that. And then that's actually something that I'm finding myself really enjoying in Godzilla. And I know that's something that Keith has built into that, the risk reward. Same thing. It's like, what do you want to do? Do you want to experience more cities and try to get deeper into different modes? Or do you just want to push your luck and just stay here in this city and try to build and build and build so that you can cash out? And, yeah, I definitely think. Carl knows nothing about that. But, yeah, Carl is the king of that, and that's something, Carl, I think with Rush, I think you're going to get in trouble. Yeah, yeah. I've seen the potential in certain spots. But going back to Godzilla, the reason that doesn't get tiring to me or grindy is because, like, the carnage bonuses. You're always trying to build that, but it's that same ball. Once you drain, it's gone. You move on to the next city. You're advancing through the rest of the game, right? Yeah. On Guns N' Roses, it's basically you're playing one way or the other. You're either playing for the wizard modes or you're playing for points. You're not going to do both. And unfortunately the points in the wizard modes are determined by how many points you earn in the songs. So, but they never work together. So like you need to play a good 10 to 12 minutes in each album, you know, songs from each album to have a decent value in your wizard modes. Yeah. So you have to have at least an hour long game to be able to have any sort of value in the final wizard mode. and sympathy for the devil otherwise you're not going to get anything so i mean the way you get to that wizard mode is you play the you play three minutes minimum in each album okay so appetite illusion one two and chinese democracy okay you play slash solo which is just spin the disc a bunch right yep and everyone times out slash solo because it's not worth much although i i do hear they're working on code and they're going to be updating that okay and then you also play tour multiball, which is shooting orbits, until you finally light that. So however many orbits.
    62:30
    After all that, you get to and you play the four wizard modes for the albums, and then finally not in this lifetime, or the modes called Sympathy for the Devil will be lit. Now I went through this, I've been to it I think three times I did the grind to get there. And the first time it's a weird, it's actually a different style, but kind of like Rush I mean, this was before Rush, but you know the... What's the planet on Rush? Anyways, it's the one with the wacky flipper stuff. So it's very similar where you've got the reverse flippers. You've got the center button to activate pop bumpers or activate flippers. Stuff like that.
    63:07
    Spoilers, by the way. Sorry. Yeah, that's how that works. The spoiler tag. You throw it in the middle of the spoiler.
    63:16
    But anyways, the scoring for that mode is based on the previous Wizard modes. And so if you don't have any points in that, you have, I walked out of that wizard mode, finishing it one time, and it was 300,000, I think. Oh, wow. Which is nothing on that game. I mean, I would hope that there would at least be a base value of some sort to make it feel like it was worthwhile.
    63:40
    After, you know, working on the game for, you know, playing the game for a half hour to get there. Yeah. Just do something. Yeah. Like, for instance, Rush, the mode you were talking about, which is the Cygnus X1 Book 2 Hemispheres, it's all about your super jackpots and your multiballs. So, you know. Yeah, so it does build, but at the same time, I mean, I think when I played that, it came out around 500 million. I mean, I feel like that game, you know, the goals to score in that wizard mode, you're going to naturally get. Right. And you're not having to extend specifically, you know, I don't have to make sure that I play this album, songs in this album for 15 minutes. Right. To make sure that I have some sort of value there. Correct. Yeah, and that's what I ran into. Well, not anywhere near that, like wizard mode. But just even when I was playing, if it was the idea was was like I just wanted to see as much song as I could. My goal was always encore. My goal. Like that was my goal, because I could usually get far enough in a song to qualify the wizard mode. But then like what boned me out was I don't know of any other game that I've borrowed or owned that I avoided a wizard mode. I mean, that was there. They'd be like, no, hold the button in. You don't want to do the wizard mode. Like there's no points because I didn't I had no points in my song, so there's no point in the wizard mode. Or I like qualified slash solo and they're like cradle up, just wait it out. I'm like, these are modes that somebody spent time coding a unique experience. And I'm being told the smart thing here is don't do it. Like don't even, don't do it. There's no reason to do it. The tour multi-ball, I actually did do. That was just one of those, like, I want to see if I can do it. And I grinded away and hit all the shots I needed to do it to achieve it. And that was kind of fun. But I don't know how that, unless you have this marathon of a game, like you're talking about, or I don't know how you get to that mode unless it's just a long game. So that's an interesting thing. I mean, I know you do have to have a similar mentality, though, when you play Godzilla, though, because I know when Keith put in, what is it, there's Planet X, and then there's the stage after Planet X. Like, I know when you are trying to get to that, which is what, King of the Monsters? Yeah. When you're trying to get that, you're dropping all thought of, like, building in each city. You're just trying to get – it's kind of a race for you to get to there. Right. I mean, for the streams. Yes. For the streams. I will, if I'm, if I have a goal of King of the monsters, I'll skip some multi balls. I won't play tank in every city, you know? Yeah. Um, when I play by myself, I, I try to complete everything. You can't, you can't, I can't stop it. It's that risk reward. I, I have to, you know, I want that five X carnage bonus. Once I do drain out of a city. Yeah. Then I go, okay, okay. It's time to change. Okay. Carl. Yeah. It pains you. But, well, cool. Well, is there anything? I mean, GNR, I still enjoy the game. I would love to play it. It's definitely a game. If you've only played it at a bar, you're missing out. It's a game you really have to play in a home environment. The music and light show is just insane. And if you like that type of game where you're just, it's risk-reward, like if that's really what draws you back in, that's awesome. And, Carl, I mean, people look to you guys, you high-end players, And they're like, if the high end players own these games, there's got to be something here. There's got to be something in that game to draw them back in over and over and over again. So the fact that still in Tom's collection, Carl, the fact that lasted in your collection for over a year. I mean, you're that that says something about the game for sure. I don't know. Well, good luck selling it. It's a great you're going to miss it dearly. That's what I'm hearing. You can barely. What is all the things you read inside? Like, I don't want to sell it, but I have to. At the same time, they made so many of them that it won't be hard to pick up again. And if I do miss it, and that's one of the factors to selling it. Yeah, it is unique. It is definitely one of the games that I was able to borrow from Zach that I do miss. And I miss that feeling, that roller coaster. I don't miss the punch in the gut that I got every time. But the high, the high, the cashing out is something that I do miss. Ultra high and ultra low. That's what that game does, yeah. Ultra low. All right. Anything else? Or do we miss anything else with triple combo on GNR? Just do all the I mean yeah Tournament strat don't play a song Just focus on the mini modes Or the mini multi balls And the wizard mode Just try to get the bare minimum The bare minimum that you need to To get to the album wizard mode You do that for all four albums You gotta crush a bunch of loops to get tour You have to hit the spinner a whole bunch of times To get slash And then is it just qualified Or is there something And then you're there and hit the scoop and you start it and then you have fun with the crazy flipper action and love all the points you didn't earn because you you did it too fast and hope you finish it too because it's not the easiest thing to finish all right well let's wrap that up then there we go ah well that feels good feels good i think uh you know when travis is here i feel like triple combo is typically what like three times longer than that that's why dennis crease little shout out to this he hates it he hates triple combo he's like you guys talk about the same game for way too long like we're trying this was the baby's first edition baby's first baby's first yeah thanks ray well cool um yeah is there anything else anything carl is there anything you want to talk about here you know it's travis usually at this point is you know heckled me and hurt my feelings. Was I supposed to take that place? You don't have to.
    69:32
    He's made enemies. We got the Deadpool video. That was all the heckling that was needed. Thank you. Well, cool.
    69:41
    End is coming up. January. Shoot, I should know the dates off the top of my head, and I don't. He's going to research it. I know you had that all-in package, right? I got my tickets bought, my plane ticket, bed and break or airbnb i'm ready awesome awesome no i'm excited to watch it i will i would love to as a i don't know i did i would love to do at least one of these bigger tournaments just to even be there i mean just to to watch it from afar is great but to see it in person i even this the little bit that i saw at cleap and i really enjoyed um i should probably participate but like super series or something i want to make my way up to one of those sometime and yeah should be good time but well Carl is that it is there anything else you can play I mean IE pinball obviously if you want to see some high quality streaming Carl does it really well not only technically but also skill wise so IE pinball check him out yeah starting a new wizard mode challenge on Stern's Indiana Jones where I'm going to kill myself I think because I've seen what it involves now after saying I'm going to do it I now need to actually do it which is going to be the grindiest thing ever Is this worse than 24? I think so. So this is the bad Indiana Jones. This is the bad Indiana Jones, yes, exactly. And I know when you were streaming Big Buck Hunter, you had a hunting hat that you wore a lot. Did somebody get you an Indiana Jones fedora? I mean, are you dressing up for this? No fedora yet, and that hat was given to me like a week into that, you know, when I started going crazy, yeah. So it's just a matter of time is what I'm hearing. Yeah, yeah. Won't be daily like Big Buck Hunter. That's what was nice with Big Buck Hunter was, you know, it was what, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was getting off work at 3 so I could jump right on and stream for two hours. I loved it, man. I loved watching you slowly head into insanity. The dive. It was great. And then to actually see you, though, complete, it was great. So I'm excited to see that come back. IE Pinball on Twitch, IE Pinball on YouTube. You can see all of your Wizard Mode challenges. They are fantastic, extremely entertaining. So, Carl, thank you not only for being on the show, but thanks for just all that content. I mean, it's very entertaining. Thank you for all your content. Oh, well, I do what I can, but I find we stream, Carl and I stream at very similar times. And I think it's a great yin and yang of we both do our best to stay engaged with chat. And, you know, Carl's over there like a great Formula One driver, you know, just nailing every turn. And I'm like a demolition derby. So I'm just crashing and burning, but Hey, we're having a good time. Um, yeah, real good time. Um, and yeah, Tom, like always, thanks for being here. Plug away, man. Thanks for, thanks for coming out of retirement and, you know, still giving your gift to I'll retire again after free play Florida.
    72:32
    But, uh, um, I have, uh, or district 82 has, uh, black Friday, uh, tournament coming up. So I'm going to be streaming that. nice so after you have turkey and you're all full and you do all your shopping and you're really tired just sit down and watch some pinball action it'll wake you right up yeah competitive pinball swear yes and i'd say travis can plug something but he literally has nothing to plug he plugs this he plugs triple drain so oh thanks to all of our patreon members thank you for everybody that supports us there and then triple drain merch silver ball swag thank you once again for Jackson for making an amazing Jackson. Oh, it's hoodie. Yeah. What do you think? Feels good. It's nice. Yeah. Carl, we need to get you. Yeah. I bought a shirt and a hoodie. They're just there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I was going to say, we need to get you one. Thanks for being on here. I, I, uh, what's funny to me is you, as a listener, I've already contributed more money to this podcast than Travis has because he is, he is, he is not paid. He has not bought any of our merch. He literally got a hoodie finally after a little bit of earned, That's not even a joke, Tom. That's just Travis being terrible. Well, thank you for the support, Carl. Travis is saving money for that camera, okay? I don't know what he's doing. I don't know.
    73:53
    Well, yeah. Thank you, Carl. Thank you, Tom. Check me out every Wednesday on the Pinball Network and then every other Thursday on Flippin' Out. And like always, Tom, you get the last words. Later, everybody.