you'll be speaking to the head-to-head people on the house find us on facebook email us at head-to-head people at gmail.com Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pitbull Podcast. This is episode 94 and my name's Martin and with me again... I'm Joe Lemire. Joe Lemire. This is third time on and second week in a row. What does this mean? I'm kind of a big deal. I don't know. I don't know about that. I think what it means is we're going to have you on all the time now. How about that? Why not just come on every week? I don't know if I can do that. Now, for you, I guess. Yeah, sure. Well, okay. So the story is we had you on the first time, just got so much great feedback about it. Had you on a second time because after the first time I was like, Huh, I wonder. Second time, yeah, for sure. Let's get you back on and let's have you as the regular co-host. So congratulations. Insert applause sound here if I could be fucked in the edit. I won't. I expect it to be there now. You set expectations. I kind of did. So it's awesome. It's awesome to have you on board and it's awesome for me now not have to do everything. So No what's awesome is that you want me to be on board This is amazing I couldn't have ever thought That when I started listening to you Years ago Seemingly My concept of time is quite skewed And not accurate at this point in my life But like to think that Someday I would either be A guest let alone a co-host Like this is a dream come true This is amazing You know what, for me, historically, you fall under the category of weird, strange person that comes and says hello to me at an event that I don't know who you are, but you know me. That's what happened at Pimberg last year. I was like, yeah, Joe, great, dude, I don't know who you are. I know. But it's only happened once. It's only happened once. I've only had one opportunity, or else it would have happened more. So, Joe, in a way then, I know we sort of talked when you came and we sort of talked your history, but something has also happened since the last time we spoke. And we were sort of saying, you know, almost top 50. What are you now? I am 42nd now. So you're almost top 40. Yeah, almost. And if I wasn't such a noob at my first attempt at that kind of a tournament, I would be top 40 because I would have qualified, but mistakes were made. But someday it'll happen. I'm playing. I've figured out consistently, consistency. Don't know how I pulled it off, but I'm playing much better now, and I'm trying to play in bigger tournaments. So I think I can at least hold it at where it is, but we'll see. That's awesome. So, you know, we talked during the week as well and thought, well, you know, if you are one of the world's top players, which you are, I'm not, you are, then we should sort of be tapping into some of your strategies on certain machines and to be able to give people some sort of tips to get better at tournaments. And we will get game specific. But the first thing, we asked this before, But just now, knowing that this is going to be your regular weekly segment, which we're calling Joe's Tip, because I'm tondrous. Because that's as tall as I am. If you were to say right now to somebody that really wants to improve their overall tournament ranking, what's the advice you'd give them? A single tip? or like a little broad concept. The high level, a couple of tips on what it takes to actually take your gameplay to the next level in a tournament format. I guess the two big ones I would mention is that it worked for me and that I ran into a wall doing is, well, not just the literal, you know what I mean, of just being, I think that A, make sure you play with people better than you as much as you can and in those moments I know a lot of people I know it happens to me a lot now is that people just tend to check out when they're playing with me because I'm playing for longer periods of time so they'll either walk off or just not play with me at all which can get kind of frustrating but is it just play with people who are how to take that personal joke yeah I've started learning to try and deal with that because also people say say some mean stuff too that they don't really understand that it is mean but I've just been like if you play with you should play with people who are better than you watch them, if they're the type of person that you know, talk to them ask them questions when I started playing I was constantly shadowing Bowen and asking and absorbing as much as I could and that made me a much better player and then the second half which obviously that can only be accomplished if you're in said environment with said people but on the opposite end of that that you can just do on your own not even with a pinball machine is watch tutorials watch videos watch competitive pinball and absorb and see what people are doing that's the other big thing because when I first got into it, my lunch hours at work were eating lunch and watching all of Papa's videos until they weren't anymore. And then I found that there's streams of competitions and, yeah. So when you're watching these videos, are you looking for rules knowledge or are you trying to look at flip skills? Kind of both. I mean, the flipper skills things at this point I don't tend to see unless it's something that I go, whoa, what was that? you know, like weird techniques I've never seen before. I've never seen a role really, haven't we? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of seeing that, I mean, it's not as useful on a video that you're saying like, oh, you do a live catch in that situation. Odds are you're probably not going to remember that when that comes up because a lot of those skills, once you learn them, they get you to the next level is whether or not you do it without thinking, which just comes from experience and repetition. But as far as like the rules things, When I'm watching in a competitive environment for myself, at least where I am now, I'm constantly trying to figure out what the decision-making is and why they're choosing to do this versus that because I've cost myself in tournaments because of poor decision-making. and I've lost and, you know, got in my own way because of making mistakes that afterwards I couldn't really come to terms of why I got to that state. So when I'm watching other people who are, you know, succeeding and stuff like that, I try to pay attention about, like, why they chose to time that mode out, why they chose in that situation to go away from that, because they missed it a couple times and they chose to go somewhere else where they were more confident in their ability to do the thing and all that stuff. And obviously rules knowledge, as new code comes out, I always read the readmes and stuff like that to see what changed. And watching people do that in tournaments, because ultimately most of the strategies I know in tournaments, I learn from watching other people in tournaments or on streams. Okay. One of the things that I've heard, I've asked people before, is that they will actually focus on one particular skill and just try that over and over, whether it's a live catch or a drop catch, a shats or whatever. And some people will actually take the glass off and all they will do is focus on that. Or some people have said that they'll actually put one arm behind the back so you're actually playing with only one hand because that really focuses you on the dead bounce and recovery skills. Is that something that you've done? I'll grab those in two segments. So the first one, as far as repeating things, I find that it's more useful to me, at least as far as back on the rules side of repeating strategies in practice as if you were in competition. and by like what I mean is that like if you would play a game for fun in a different way than you would play competitively that to me it's important for me to make sure that I get the repetition and the strategy in my head to play in a competitive environment first before I play it in a for fun environment because those two tend to butt heads with each other so I want to make sure that I don't revert in the middle of a time when I should be doing the opposite so I try to do that when playing as far as how you're playing the game and then as far as the physical skills honestly I tried that when I had games and I find that it's far more you get far more aggravated trying to set up said situations that you end up losing sight of what you're actually trying to accomplish I think I remember on my Metallica I would try and throw it around the orbit with my hand and then get back into position so that I could catch it, or I would throw it down so that I could drop catch. And then ultimately, for me at least, it came down that the skills that I needed to learn, I needed to just learn from playing pinball. And while playing pinball, in my head, make sure I'm saying to myself, or even out loud if that's some people that it works, and sometimes that works for me, of just being like, you know, okay, if it comes over here, drop catch, live catch. Or if I mess up and do the wrong thing, sometimes I'll verbally yell at myself, or at least internally go, you shouldn't have done that. Unless you get on a game where, like, for Shatting specific, I mean, there's certain games that that's all you should be doing. So, like, when I'm over Chuck's house and I'm playing, like, Amazing Spider-Man, I only Shat on that game because that's what the game wants you to do. so in those situations I shat or like wizard or stuff like that yeah and look this is probably the disadvantage that we have not having access to a lot of old EMs and solid states shatting I mean even though yes you can do shatting on Bally Williams and Stern machines you can't really hone that art because you just need the machines and you need the machines on free play to be able to do it over and over otherwise you're just burning money and the other one is obviously tap passing right Again, you can tap pass on Sturm Machines It obviously can be done But not as easily as Old games And probably the best example I can give is Paragon Which requires Really, for a good strat A tap pass from the left to the right So you can get those inline Stand up targets Drop targets, sorry I can't do that In a tournament setting because I think there's a further thing which is you can practice as much as you want at home but until you have the courage to be able to do that in a tournament setting, it doesn't matter what you know at home correct I would never do a tap pass because I would be so fearful that I would get it wrong and then if you're doing it and there's live streaming and people are watching it's like, I am not going to attempt that and yeah it's kind of like this journey that everybody goes on is you've actually got to improve your flipper skills at a base at home but then you've got to be able to actually have enough confidence to be able to do them in the real world and i think for me that first moment where my um my tournament ranking started going up was when i had the courage this sounds so basic to you and i know it does joe but having the courage to dead bounce in a tournament. That was, I was scared for so long to do that. And then just after a while, it just becomes normal. You just get used to it. Yeah, and I can parlay that back into the original last question I never answered about the behind the back thing as playing one-handed. And, you know, that's something that I did try and do for a little bit and then realized I was really bad at it and it wasn't overly fun to do by myself. But I think that since you've mentioned it, I really should try to start starting that up again because it is a great way to practice patience and understanding how the ball moves. But yeah, just to mirror what you're talking about, you were 100% right about the whole, you know, you are a mirror of the environment that you grow up in. So just like you, I can't tap pass. Well, I mean, I can, but it's not a skill that I've been able to practice because, like you, I don't have old games readily available to me. Certainly not on free play and certainly not all the time. You know, there's a few collections that have them, but oddly enough, when I'm there, I tend to be playing the moderns because I enjoy them more, and I'm not going to spend the night over other people's houses, you know, just practicing the tap because I'm there to be social. So I'm going to play the games that I can play with other people and other people want to play with me and I'm not really there to practice in that way. But just like you, that's a skill I never really have been able to hone and develop due to lack of, I guess, the error that I grew up in and started playing in. And that's the same thing when it comes to the EMs and, you know, getting myself to stop doing modern flipper skills on older games, which has just constantly just bit me in the butt. happen at Classics in New York City. It's just like that, of just those mental problems where you try and do things that you shouldn't be doing due to lack of experience in those situations. Definitely becomes a problem, and you know, it's one of those things that it's just you can't really fix it, it's just going to happen over time. And just like you say, there's no way I would attempt tap pass in competition because it's just... I think I might have done it once or twice, and then, like, once it worked, and then the very next ball, I did it, and I lost the ball down the flipper because it didn't work. And then I think I turned around and, like, screamed in my head, that's why you don't fucking do that, you know? It's exactly right. It's awful. And it's like, I would rather shoot something and miss and die that way than and have it be completely on myself in that manner, because there's no worse feeling than doing something like that. I get what you mean, because you can actually then blame the machine for it having a bad bounce, as opposed to you just being a complete idiot and not actually flipping the button at the right time. Yeah, and I think that another big thing when it comes to improving your play is to learn to blame the right person. remember that within that statement the machine is not a person so it's almost never the machine's fault so the people who own their drains and are accountable for their own actions and their non actions improve a lot better because they're identifying a problem and trying to fix it themselves so that's another huge thing a mental thing you gotta get over well there you go guys take that advice It's like number 42 in the world, and hopefully, you know, that will go up. You've got another event this weekend. You've got a Pintastic this weekend. Sorry, a Pinmania. What is it? Pinmasters of Rhode Island. Which, yeah, which, you know, ultimately, I mean, it's weird. I mean, Bowen's playing, so the odds are I'm not going to win. Oh, don't be like that. You're nearly top 40. I know, but he's like an all-timer. And remember, I didn't say I couldn't beat him. I said, the odds are I won't. So, you know, he's at 51%. I'm at 49. Theoretically. But, like, also the bad part about being ranked where I am is that almost no normal tournaments are worth it or even make my board. So even if I win this weekend, I don't think it's big enough to make my board. but so now it's just I have to do good in the big tournaments which for me is going to be fantastic like you mentioned and like 24 Hour and Pinberg really are the ones left in the year and those are all circuit events which mainly my big thing is that I'm super excited about is that I'm like 7th in the circuit right now and I still have 3 left to play so that are all local that I'm definitely going to play in. So I'm like, kind of hoping that maybe I could possibly pull that off because that would be awesome. But look, I'm sort of at that stage at the moment as well. The local comps I've got here in Melbourne, I actually have to win for me to have a net improvement of maybe one or two points from my 20 scores. So therefore, really for me to make a significant improvement I've got to do really well in some of the major tournaments that we have here where there are upwards of 70, 80 players and you would know geographically here we are actually quite a large country as far as the size, physical size of our country goes so that's kind of why even though you know I'm not going to Pembroke I am going to the Southern Hemisphere Pimple Championships and I'm going to Brisbane Masters So those two events, even if I do mid, will be worth a lot more than me being mid at Pinberg. So, you know, and, you know, it's money. We talked about our dollar being pretty bad, but, you know, it's still, you know, money and accommodation to be able to travel to these places as well. So, you know, if you really are serious about, you know, wanting to hunt down the whoppers, for us, it actually really is quite a costly bit of business. Oh, yeah. It's, you know, and that's, and ultimately it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't even matter if you're serious or not. It's your life. It's your job decides whether or not you can be or not. So it's really not even your decision. and most of the times or at least you know and where it's like you just get so many so much vacation and if it's past that you know if you see that you're going to use that for pinball you're going to use that for other fun activities and you don't get to do both most of the time but also being in you know with your dollar being the thing you know and i've had that happen before when i went to try and purchase a big ticket item from europe and went wow like that like And our dollar is super crappy compared to the euro or the pound. So it's not quite as bad as your transfer rate, but it was still to the point where I said I can't do it now just because of that. So I can't imagine with it because, I mean, it's not like, oh, yeah, well, yours is now you have to spend less because it's in the opposite direction. Having to just spend that much more, it's crazy. Especially for flying because that industry has gone way out of hand Yeah, correct Anyway, so let's get some pinball news under our belt And the first one, and I will say congratulations to you, Joe Lemire Because you were the first person that brought this to my attention Subsequently, I probably had about 20 or 30 people bring this to my attention But this week we had an announcement, an update if you will from Deep Root. And I would like you to either read out the... You can actually probably read out the entire announcement or give us a summary. What would you like? All right. I'm going to go look at the announcement right now. Awesome. So to make sure that I don't mess it up. It's in the show notes. I know. And I just picked on it. Very professional notes, I might add, for the people who don't see the magic behind the mirror. Do you want me to read it out loud? Yeah, I do. Okay. All right. We know there is a lot of excitement around Deep Root and its mysterious pinball project. We also know there is frustration in how long it has taken to see something, let alone experience the Deep Root pinball difference. Space. If I... New paragraph. You are doing this so well. I know. I'm trying to fit the bill. If all we wanted to do is compete with existing pinball manufacturers and churn out the outdated and uninspired pinball package as it exists in the market today, it would have been a much easier path and accomplished years ago. But we're better than that. That's not in there. But I'm not going to point out the things that I'm going to add. You guys can figure it out on your own. All right. We chose a different path. The simultaneous development of hundreds of unique pinball innovations and tens of titles have taken much longer than anyone has, in parentheses, wanted. New paragraph. The fringe benefit to developing innovative pinball machines is the forced creation of multiple divisions and groups across a wide variety of industries and fields and different parts of a building. These would not normally be found in a singular, relatively small company. But we're much better than that. which is why Deep Root is unique and uniquely positioned to not only provide a different type of pinball experience, but also cross-branded and diverse exploration of new concepts, ideas, stories, and experiences. This will keep Deep Root Pinball tied to more popular entertainment choices and trends and our pinball creators' creations relevant for decades to come, or at least next year. There has been endless amounts of speculation in forums or disseminated in the pinball media. Oh, shots fired. Regarding our pinball project, our finances, and even our separate and independent investment funds that have very little to do with pinball. That was directed at us. We're pinball media. Not really. No, you know, let's just time out now and then we'll get to the second half of it. Because we've actually been, I think, relatively fair towards Deep Root. I mean, obviously, we've joked about the name and the logo. But me in particular, I guess everybody has had the whole, we'll believe it when we see it. and you know the sentiment I get from the first couple of paragraphs and let's face it the internet has reacted accordingly is I guess it continues what we see as a level of arrogance now this is what I've always said about arrogance arrogance is confidence that's not backed up with ability right so okay right so there you go yet is probably the key word here because in and we're going to talk about the the timeline that they put forward in six months time or whatever it is we will look at and go oh shit you weren't arrogant you were actually just confident because you knew you could back up everything that you're saying we've as a media as spectators as forum goers as you know douchebags with a voice, which we all are. Speak for yourself, Ryan. No, no, no, no. Now that you're regular, it's all encompassing now. So if I say something that's really shitty, you'll get blamed for it as well. That's something I didn't really highlight in the terms and conditions of your contract. So I'm sorry. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm already coming into a down-ticking of pinball media here. So I'm already, the expectations are already too high for me to write this ship. That's why I mentioned us when the word pinball media was, we'll get into that later. So that's what it is, right? We hear these words and look, the first one that people have come out and really, you know, highlighted or bolded, put their highlighter marker on is, you know, the sentence that says, if all we wanted to do was compete with existing pinball manufacturers and churn out the outdated and uninspired pinball packages that exist in the market today, it would have been a much easier path and accomplished years ago. So... Which, I mean, well... He makes a valid point. Yes, he does. But also because I mentioned it, like, oh, you know, a lot of people are like, yeah, show me attitude, where I think I have a completely different attitude. I'm just excited and waiting. Yeah. Completely content to wait. I don't see, I think it's kind of silly, the reaction that people are having. It's like no one is taking your money. There's nothing. You could just be content and just sit and wait. It's like, you know, seeing a trailer or something for a movie that's coming out next year. You don't sit here and flip out about it until it comes out. You just be excited and wait for it to come. I don't know why we can't look at it that way. I mean, that statement, yeah, people are flipping out about that, but it's factually accurate. It's true. outside of the LCD system there has been no innovation to Bimble this is exactly right and so look further to that I'll get you to do the second half of the announcement but just as a response I guess to the shots fired from Robert Mueller about you know these uninspired machines you know somebody on Pinside wrote thank God we have all this outdated and uninspired crap to play until your games come out to which Robert replied you mean like a Ghostbusters that won't turn on half the time. The two brand new premium Batman 66 I bought that are already more dimpled than the moon and with broken mechs already. A Hobbit that's been dead for months. A dialed in with constant sound and rebooting problems and a total nuclear annihilation with so many problems that it has kept my engineers from engineering on Deep Root stuff. Playing and maintaining a Deep Root game is pretty refreshing for me thus far. That is professional-level trolling right there. That is brilliant. And there's really only one part of that where I think is not probably true, and that is the dimpling thing. I mean, unless their playfields are plastic, that's not going to change because steel beats wood all the time. And unless you've actually been to the moon, you don't actually really know whether it is more dimpled than the moon. So, you know, facts. Also facts. See, you always find just that little bit of truth. Well, you're still good at your job, Martin. Marty. Exactly right. Oh, nice. But, you know, again, just back to that point, the pinball community as a whole gets it back up because who are you? Who are you? You are saying all these things, yet you haven't delivered. So if they don deliver we can look back and go yeah you know you were full of shit the whole time But I in a way I like you and this is what I have been saying is I hope they deliver Oh, my God. And I hope they're just like, how's my ass taste now, guys? It's just weird. I mean, it's just, I completely get where he's coming from, because the pinball community as a whole just cannot stand being called out on their bullshit for anything. and it's like dealing with a very demanding angry child so like pointing out this stuff and it's like what does this mean to anybody none of it matters like I don't understand how people wake up every day and decide that this is the shit that's going to rule their life I don't know how they can live you know and it's just like I mean as far as I'm concerned as being a friend with Steven Bowden and I think it's real. I don't think... He wouldn't have done what he did, and every time I've talked to him, I trust Steve, and I trust... Yeah, this guy might be boisterous and whatever like that, but like you mentioned, yeah, he can talk the game, but he might be able to back it up, too, and people aren't really considering that. Yeah. How stupid they're going to look if they happen to deliver on it. Of course, it's not going to matter at that point. Okay, but so here's Robert, if you're listening to this and Steve, if you're listening to this, give Robert a message for me. This is all I would say. It's okay if you want to trash talk the competitors. Do you know what? Go for your life. What you've got to understand is that if you are trash talking their products that are in people's homes that they've spent a lot of money on and you're telling them that the machines they've bought are uninspired and shit, you are not going to make people feel good about pinball. You know what I mean? Like, you've got to understand that there's actually collateral damage when you're bad-mouthing all those other companies and their machines because people have actually got those machines in their home. And I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to say, guys, when we deliver our machines, you are going to love what we do. we are so proud of what we're doing, it's so, you know, oh my God, the innovation, all that kind of stuff. In the meantime, you're making people feel really shit about their purchasing decisions. And don't forget, these machines cost a lot of money and therefore, for most people, it's a very emotional decision to make when that amount of money, which is the effort they put into their jobs to earn money to be able to pay for these things. So just call your jets on that kind of stuff is what I would say because you're getting people reacting, not because you're attacking Stern, most people attack Stern or Spooky or all the other companies that you've sort of referenced by their machines. You're kind of angling that to the actual person that buys these machines as well and that will not make people feel good. no and it's one of those things that even if you know if he's being factually accurate and all of those things are true with the machines that he specifically happens to have there and you know maybe some of the points actually be true but people take things and think emotionally and it doesn't really matter which is kind of you know a sad state of affairs of the way that things get internalized like that where but i mean that's yeah that people are going to think of it that way and they're going to hold it against them regardless because then they're going to feel like you mentioned. And it's weird because it's like, it's getting him a ton of attention and bandwidth and no bad presses, good press and all that stuff, which is true. And it's hard to know how aggressively pinball holds a grudge because every time that people complain about stuff, they then, the opposite, the exact thing comes out and they buy it anyway. So, I mean, I don't know how much of a long-term effect this will have. Well, let's, I don't know either, but let me just do a bit of a parallel, if you will allow me. Just humor me with it. I have a parallel too. You're about to go through something. We've just been through it, and that is an election. So we just went through And I'll talk about that Well okay Okay right So How frustrating is it When the politicians come up Let's say the two that are You know right at the end So You know who was it last year It was Trump versus Hillary wasn't it right So How How Disappointing Or how does it make you feel when Those people get up and all they do is trash talk each other. Does that actually give you confidence in that person? Does it give you confidence in their Ryan Policky? Does it give you confidence in their ability to govern your country and be a good citizen? Or does it make you think, oh, fuck, just stop rubbishing each other and picking each other apart. Just tell us about your policies and tell us how you're going to make the world a better place. That's what happened in Australia as well, right? One side of politics was trying to say, here are all the good things. The other side of politics were going, you guys are dickheads. And that's, it just, everybody now has such a sour taste when it comes to politicians. And I'm not saying that this is that extreme, but I'm just saying that it has that same effect where you just kind of go, can't you just be really positive and cheer your own product without having to rubbish other people? Well, see, now, it's a great point. But the problem, which you also just found this out yourself, is that as much as we would like for that to be the way the world operates and decisions get made and all that stuff, as both of our countries can now kind of speak against, that's not how things work. because in both cases, the person who just was the attack and be an asshole won in both cases. So it's just kind of people as much. That was always the talking point where it's like, yeah, tell me the facts and tell me the policies and tell me how you're going to change my life. It doesn't mean anything because in the end, people, they vote with emotion. and I mean in the election here so much of the country voted completely against their own interests just because they just didn't like Hillary or they just thought that Donald Trump was going to do something for them which was a complete bullshit and it you know it's the same thing you have a very Trump-ish person there too who pulled the same act so it's just there was actually somebody here that they all campaign and who they are was almost Trump I wouldn't say 2.0 because that indicates an improvement but somebody that was even to the same you know yellow colour and the make Australia great again and all that kind of stuff he actually got no seats it was a joke but he supported the government though and I get all my news from your politics from last week tonight which was a good point is that the person who won, or what they were talking about as their slogan was, Make Australia Great, which implied that you were never great in the first place, so they couldn't say, Make Australia Great Again. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that was the words. It's like, yeah, we've never been great, so we're going to experience it for the first time. Yeah, let's try and get great for the first time. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I thought that was funny. I know. It is. Anyway, so let's go on to the next section where we talk about the time frames of what's going to happen. over to you, Joe. Well, we didn't finish the last section. There's still this nice little thing at the end. Go for it. We've definitely had some good laughs along the way at the seemingly endless queue of quote-unquote experts. We will keep on doing what we do best along the following schedule. Which, you know, people get pissed off at that last sentence, but, like, I find that hilarious because everyone actually thinks they're experts. This is the whole thing. Again, it's one of those things you go, how dare you point out the truth. That I think that. It's funny. I love it. All right. Now we get to the schedule. Yep. Which is really good. FYI, really good. If you keep to the schedule, great. At least we now know. Go, Joe. Which I also find funny that this schedule, I believe, was mentioned on somewhere that they denied exist and then they posted that it existed. So even that's a little... All right. June 26th, 2019. By June 28th. Yeah. See, look at... Why are you making me read? I can't read, Bo. I'm American. I'm American. By June 28th, we will provide Zidware claimants who I, or I guess it's a one. I'm going to say one. One, filed and perfected a claim. Perfected, what does that even mean? Two. I think it was filled out correctly, probably. Yeah, yeah, which, I mean, people can't spell their names, so that's, what are the odds of anyone going to be able to pull that off? Two, within the prescribed time. And three, signed and returned the goodwill agreement, a choice between extending the delivery date or receiving monetary benefits, as outlined in each is agreement, which is what got leaked online. And then he's like, nah, uh-huh. All other claimants' claims or vendors' claims will thereafter be rejected. Yeah, you're done. You're out. You're done. You're done wrong. You're done. You're fucked up. All right, that is the final and the finale? Is that finale? You don't say finale, does it? Finale. Finale. No. Finale and the extent of our self-imposed voluntary goodwill to deal with the vidware situation. Okay. I mean, it's pretty salty, but also kind of, it's really funny. Again, it is salty, but this is, again, the interesting situation. They actually had no obligation, and I say that, obligation. They had no obligation to do anything for Zidware. However, they probably needed to because if you bring J-Pop into the fold, you've got to somehow negate some of that angst or ill will that people are going to have to your brand by having that brand so that's they weren't obligated but it was good that they did but it's right it is a self imposed voluntary goodwill yeah but and people can't lose sight of the fact it is kind of cool that they're doing this yeah it is kind of nice like you said they didn't have to do this and they are which is, this is a first time in pinball. No one has ever done this before. Well, no one's probably. So. Well, I don't know. Yeah. Or whoever's taking over the highway, are they going to do this? Right. Of course they're not. Yeah. So, pinball brothers, whoever they are, they aren't going to do this. But this is why, you know, Robert Mueller, if I had, you know, 1% of his cash, I'd be a very wealthy person. So. So, yeah. You know. Just how famous you'd be then. Then you'd be paying someone else to do your podcast for you. Correct. I'd have someone doing my voice. So anyway, this is a good thing, but also he's saying, you know, this is the hard line, this is what's happening. And also, you know, not everybody agreed with the terms and conditions of this, let's call it a bailout. I don't know whether we could, but... Kind of-ish. It's kind of, it is a make-will gesture of sorts. So people didn't even agree with the way it was structured. But basically what they're saying is, take it or leave it. Yeah, I mean, that's like a person drowning and getting pissed that you gave him a circular life preserver instead of a square one. It's like, really? You're going to have this conversation with me right now? All right, fine. I'm taking it back. Fuck you. That kind of happens. Yeah. Keep going. What's the next date we've got? The next date comes in November. Specifically between November 15th and 16th. Why? I don't know. 2019. You ready for this? I am. At a minimum, minimum, very small, several Raza prototypes will be available to play at the Houston Arcade Expo. That's why there is a range. Like that reveal? I love that. I love that. It's like, I don't get this, but I do after I finish this sentence. That's right. It was only one sentence, so you really had to, you know, you know. So, okay. So that, okay. What I like about that is, even though it is many, many months away, at least it's a moment. It's like, okay, I now know for the next six months, I can just wait. I don't have to now Badger them every day going Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? They're saying We're going to be there At November 15th, 16th At the Houston Arcade Expo That's right That's when the trailer drops guys Be ready When the trailer drops That's the five-ish days Is it? Yeah At a minimum there's going to be seven So at the very least there'll be several Seven There might be eight Who knows Maybe they'll spoil you. Maybe you'll get nine. All right. So, are you ready? Like I said, that's when the trailer drops, right? But do you know when the movie comes out? No. So, when you say this next bit, as in the time frame, I want to stop there and I want to call out something that drives me nuts. So, just go. Next section. Okay. All right. Coming soon. Fall 2019. Summer 2020. Very unspecific. Okay. All right. And you know. I know. Okay. We just had summer. So does that mean between December and February, December 2019 and February 2020? Is that what it means? And fall, we are just about, you know, I think we're just about out of, well, it's for us, We're in the future, so it's 1st of June. So, always bragging about that. I'm in the future. Well, that's the fact. So, and also, fall. No one else says fall. Do you know that? Do you say fall? Yeah, we don't. We say autumn. Oh. Because that's actually its name. we make up our own shit here do we do anything the way we're supposed to no we don't use metric which is what any sane person would use no we use english yeah it's great so but i say i say it's frustrating because when you say regardless whether you say fall or autumn that doesn't bother me but when you say fall or when you say summer i'm like when's that again because that's not my summer and I know yes it's America and you're the center of the world and you know you've got the great call your summer we we call it I guess but we call it summer but we call it also December to February oh yeah well good for you okay so what I want to know is when is fall 2019 to summer 2020. You're burying the lead, man. The real question here, and the real problem here, is the fact that they mention November above it and then jump to fall, which happens before November. Yep. That's my issue. Okay, but I don't know that fall is before November. Here it is. Well, November's like winter, practically. Right. So, I mean, for me, fall 2019, is, you know, March, April, May 2019 to summer 2020 is February 2020. Really? That's when last marked? Yeah, I guess that's it, yeah. So that's a big distance of time. So what are those actual months in American terms? I guess fall here is like August, September, October, probably. Yep. And then summer probably would be defined as, like, May, June, July. Okay. Probably. April is kind of like spring. Cool. So I think that's roughly what it is. But then again, I'm up in, you know, the boondocks of the country where, like, the Carl Weathers is always shit here. So we tend to not get fall and spring. just get bad summers, bad winters, which is super bad. That's it. Yeah. So what did he say about fall 2019 and summer 2020? He wrote exactly what months those apply to for Australia. Interesting. Why didn't you read the next sentence? What are you doing? Alright, so where were we? Yes. Fall. Summer. Two different two different years in a world where pinball could come out in a very non-specific amount of time knowing exactly when we launch is a valuable trade secret that allows competitors an undesirable competitive advantage. That's kind of true. It is. But no. No. They've already come out saying these other companies are fucking inferior, right? There's no way they are going to touch our quad assembly or whatever it is. And then you're saying that a launch will give them a competitive advantage? What competitive advantage? If you think that you're all so much better than them, it doesn't fucking matter. Yeah, but in a trolly way, but I mean, like, they come out and they're like, look at our five machines, and then Stern's like, yeah, but we finally gave code to Ghostbusters. What are people going to care about? Really? I mean, that's a mic drop right there. And let's go, oh shit, or, or, guess what, so they announce one game, right? And they're, boom, Ghostbusters code. Then they're like, well, well they got screwed us over with that, boom, here's another game, boom, Star Wars topper. Like, what are you going to do against that? Like, you can't compete with that shit. And then, and then Jersey Jack's going to be like, boom, maybe we'll have another machine next year. I don't know. Like, Spooky's going to be like We're going to make another machine in three years Anything could happen What if American Pinball comes out and says Hey, guess what, we have a theme A licensed theme Stop it I really like the people Like all those other companies You know, whatever But my buddies who are at American Pinball I don't know them really all that well But they're good people It's only because you bet on the wrong horses Hello, why are you not all in on Thunderbirds Pinball? Yeah, I think we all know, don't we? We all know Well, no, I don't know because I purposely chose never to play the game Have you not played it? Because it was there last year I know It was surrounded by other games? Fair enough Yeah, okay, gotcha Okay, so, yep, so, a valuable trade secret that allows competitive and undesirable competitive advantage. Keep going. Mm-hmm. Yeah, keep going. At a minimum, the five days of Deep Root will be scheduled, and Raza will be available for sale during this time period. Boom. Yeah, there you go. Okay. And then we fully intend to make good on our 2018 Pinball Expo promises we regrettably did not accomplish in 2019. Robert Mueller. It's like the Mueller Report. Yeah, it is. It is. So maybe just as useless. So what does that mean? So we fully intend to make good on our 2018 Pinball Expo promises we regrettably did not accomplish in 2019. Yeah, that's a good bet. So what they're saying is that they made a promise at the 2018 Pinball Expo that they didn't accomplish in 2019. I'm not... I'm genuinely not getting that. That is a little confusing. Unless you specifically remember the promises that were made to you. I remember there was going to be some deep rooting and there was going to be five days of it. That's what I remember. I don't remember any more specifics to that. I do know that... Unless it's like... It's not... When they say 2018 Pinball Expo, I think what they're talking about, you know, they'll mention a bit of TPF. Yeah, that was TPF. Yeah, I think that's probably what it was. But anyway, I... Details. This is going to be a mixed message. Like, I was so disappointed that the Black Knight launch and Willy Wonka happened straight after TPF because I was all the way out there. Now I couldn't give a shit. Like, I don't care whether you launch at an expo or not. Just launch. you know, I just want to see the flyer and see a buy now button. That's all I want. See, it's easy. See? He just said they can screw over their entire launch if someone just would have put out a flyer. That's right. See? You're making their argument. Selling pinballs is easy. It's as easy as making them. So it then comes back to... Well, it comes back to that statement, right? Where originally Robert said making pinball is easy and then he came back and said, Well, actually making pinball is easy. Everything else is hard. Meaning, assembling a pinball machine is really easy. And you know what? For me, it's not. I wouldn't know how to do it. But I've seen the production lines for Jersey Jack and for Stern, and each individual person has got a pretty simple job. Yep, it's easy. Get it done. Designing it, engineering it, coding it, does, you know, arting it, is a proper way of saying that, is the hard part, which is what he's saying. So he did come back saying, like, building, assembling a pinball machine is easy. That's fine. But when you use the word making, people sort of refer to everything that goes into getting your final product, not just assembling. Well, yeah, they'll take that in the broadest sense that they can to make sure that they can criticise you for it. Correct. I mean, honestly, yes, making pinball in its current state is really hard because have you looked underneath a pinball machine? Because why would anyone make anything like that anymore? Has anyone looked in a computer in the last 20 years? None of it looks like what those pinball machines look like, you know? Yeah, exactly. We haven't really hit the next level of why these things are designed this way and moving past the nostalgia part of it that's keeping it in the box that it currently lives in. You know, which hopefully they're going to change. And it's sad because the other company that did kind of kick that in the nuts got kicked back in the nuts and people won't buy their stuff. AKA Morphic. There we go. That's the word I was looking for. Do tell. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, I think that some of the stuff that they have in their platform is very new and forward-thinking and different. And it has, like, a lot of things that hasn't been adopted because people are scared of the technology, and it's not what they expect or have next to them. Like, you mentioned about the whole thing, like, well, I put this pinball machine, and the head looks different next to the one next to it, so I don't like it. Well, like, okay, is that fair? No. No, that's what we've said. You know, we want innovation, but we don't know really what we want, but we just want it. But it's very hard to get that right. And the other thing, I guess, with that whole making pinball is easy, the other parallel, because I think that was also the mantra that Home Pin had was, you know what? We know how to make a pinball. It's easy. We've got all... And then... And it probably is, but you've also got to design a good pinball. You've got to get a good layout. You've got to get a good coder. You've also then got to... Probably the hard thing as well, and this is what we've got to work at over time, is you've also got to make a machine with so many moving parts that doesn't break down all the time. And that's what he's come about. You know, that statement I read before where he was talking about all those other machines are broken, he's basically saying our machines will not break. Yeah, it's, you know, because there is, you know, part of the bad part of relying on old technology is that, and ultimately that is the main reason why pinball is not everywhere because it's too hard to maintain and people are extra lazy now. So you're not going to get an operator to check in on that game once a week when normally they go in there every couple months. It's not something that's going to happen. So hopefully they can figure that out. I'm rooting for them. I know a lot of people are hoping that they crash and burn. I'm rooting for them. And I hope that their talk is not just talk Because if I remember correctly, there was a lot of similar talk by another pinball company that made their whole package was just shitting on Stern and how they weren't going to be like Stern. And I don't feel that they necessarily delivered on any of that either. So, I don't know. We're all wanting this. We are all wanting the alternative that does advance pinball. We all want it. So we are looking forward to seeing what that actually looks like. Do you think that that's true? That most people are looking for the next level of pinball? Yeah, I am. Okay, so for me, I thought the next level of pinball was Jersey Jack when Wizard of Oz came out. And even Hobbit to an extent. I know we've talked about its flaws, but when you look at Hobbit... Well, Hobbit flaws. Okay, no flaws there. I'm going to go to conference. but it still was next level. You know what I mean? The way it looked, the way it played was next level. They just got some of it wrong. I think, you know, Pirates of the Caribbean by Jersey Jack is next level. But what's the next level above that? I mean, to a certain extent, maybe. But I mean, if you look at those games, like, are they really next level? The only thing they took to the next level was the LCD. like that definitively was definitely next level but the rest of the stuff in the game it was all pulled from different places and then there was just a crap load of it that's what I mean there's nothing it was a crap load of it but that's not really that's not like next level as much as that is I'm not saying it's like a massive leap up I'm just saying that it is up it's the same level just more of it I think it's more it's you know maybe it's a 5-10% up but this is what I guess you're saying we all want that moment where you look at something and you scratch your head and you think how have they made this possible? How can pinball be that amazing? And I'm just going to say this that I think J-pop was probably well the only one that I know of that really has that crazy level of thinking to be able to make something that is so radically different and new and that's what made his business suffer because he was reaching for the stars and just couldn't make it happen. Well and that the You know and I sure Like what you saying is true but I don necessarily don think that say the guys at Stern or elsewhere aren thinking the same way but I think that I don't know what the margins are like at Stern or how much these companies can sustain a dud. I know that, like, you know, Drizzy Jack has, there's been tons of rumors about how that's going, but whatever for there. But, I mean, like, I don't know if, because I'm sure there's tons of ideas that then they just look at and go, either A, people won't pay for this, or B, you know, they're not confident that, you know, that it's going to work out that way. Because, I mean, if you look at, like, the discs on Pirates of the Caribbean, like, I guess, sure, that was innovative, and it was a cool concept that's never been done before in that way, and there was tons of hype around it. and then in the end it got pulled out from everybody underneath everyone who was excited about that. So then if you look at that, and then as from an outsider looking in, or even from within that company, was that a net gain or a net loss for what that did to that title, probably in the long run? I mean, yeah, they aimed high. I mean, it looks like the ship worked out, but that disc and the shitstorm that happened about those discs, I can't say definitively that that probably sunk the game, but it certainly did not help at all. And also, running around at shows, showing the triple disc version and being like, buy this, but you can't have this, and this is going to be different, and that one's going to be different. I know. I mean, I think if they could have their time again, they would have done it so differently, obviously. They didn't want that headache, But again, I think they made the right decision in saying, you know what, we're going to take the hit to our brand and the financial hit, which it would have been massively. Like, just to their cash flow, not being able to sell that for an additional 12 months would have just depleted their reserves, I'm sure. but it would have been so much worse if they had released that machine and the chest didn't work all the time and the discs didn't work all the time. Imagine the brand damage that would have. That would have been worse than having that delay. So I think they made the right decision. I believe I know that they made the right decision but either way it was going to have some brand damage yeah and I think that that's the risk right you dream big, you aim big if you don't hit that mark and if you happen to do it in public which I think is the biggest problem with Jersey Jack is the fact that they show way too much way too early and the games that they have out at shows do not do their brand justice at all and whereas Stern just says they show it only when it's ready and only when it's done and it's been tested I don't think that there's really been any stern release that a feature was shown in a previous in a prototype game that never made it to the production game like that because obviously they're playing it safe I don't know you can't really quantify what damage that did to Jersey Jack or that game and what a similar misstep would do to Stern let alone a startup like what happened with J-Pop so this is what I think again about that decision is if they had released that machine knowing that they couldn't get the three disks spinning reliably that would be a blemish on the name of Jersey Jack as a company but by delaying it and changing the disk, it becomes just centered on that machine itself, as opposed to it having overall damage on J.J.P. as a company and Jack as a person. So I think, again, they did wise to say, it's just isolated to this machine, have your anger towards this machine, but not to J.J.P., we did the right thing, and we are good people. And I think that's a better way out of it. Yeah, and it's a shame because I think ultimately probably that is the best game they've made, and more or less they got buried because of that or whatever else happened. So it's like it's it's thanks because it's like and you've seen that the people who really have gone and and this is where I worry a little bit about the forward mobility of the hobby because of the attitudes and obviously the way that people look at that. Because if you look at the people or the companies that have just walked up and said, you know, pointed to the stands and said, I'm going to hit a home run. And even if they've delivered on those, say, you know, what the heck was the Lebowski team? They made an amazing machine that by all accounts shot amazing, was awesome. Online system, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, was amazing. Crashed and burned. and then you have other ones where other companies have had similar things where they come out with this new system even if it's good it still doesn't work out whereas I don't know if Stern and if you see Stern's way of handling it is that they're just going to nip at it and just nibble and nibble and nibble and they're slowly going to slowly start innovating but as a very slow methodical very controlled way like they're doing with of, you know, Spike 1 and then Spike 2 and then add a little bit to Spike 2 and then we're going to go to Spike 3 and we're going to get a little online and all this other stuff. So it's like one of those things that they're moving at such a slow pace that it's hard to be noticeable. I know. Because it's sort of slow and progressive. I've defended them many times saying it's much harder for them because they are at a much higher scale. So, you know. Yeah. So they've got these things in place, but they've also got longer development cycles. So, you know, that was the whole thing. When everyone was sort of saying, you know, Stern needs to bring out an LCD screen, they were like, yeah, we are, but it takes us two, three years to perfect this and we have to update our operating system to support it. So it just takes them a bit longer, but it gets noticed. Yeah, and that's the thing is that it's... And as a community, we're very scared of change, like super scared of change. So when innovations like that come up, as a community, we tend to not be very mobile and versatile with dealing with that change. We tend to just go, whoa, that's not what I'm used to. And then that tends to translate into whatever that is failing instead of embracing and pushing that forward. So I worry about it. I hope that this is the thing and that he can back up what he does. And it's just like this one, you know, jumping into the pool and it's cold. and if you could get it over with and boom, it's there and you can't sit there and worry about is it coming, is it not going, should I, should I not and it's just like boom, it's here, so deal with it. So there's less processing with it so maybe it'll get adopted quicker than some of these other changes but I hope that it works out because I do think that if anyone's being honest with themselves that pinball really has not changed outside of the LCD and the things that it has changed have then been sunk and just didn't happen like the online stuff with, you know, Babowski and the stats and all that stuff, and then with Morphic. Yep. Do you guys even have any of those over in Australia? I've streamed it a couple times. So I've... If you don't mind, Mick, he's got one, and he's got all of it, effectively. So we went over, the last stream we did was the Cosmic Kart Racing, which is super fun. It really is. So I like it. I don't want it, I guess, is what I'm saying. Well, I mean, also, if you have someone very close to you who has it, like, do you need it? Well, you know, I've only met him a couple of times. He's a really great guy. But, you know, I've played it and I've had a great time. But, I don't know. It's just one of those things where I just don't feel I want it in my home. Not yet. I think that there's still some ways to go. And they just announced the new title coming early next year. Yeah, so hopefully, you know, it's one of those things, particularly this platform is engineered within an inch of its life. If they say, right, we've now learnt everything, we've had all the feedback, we now need to implement it, it's a two to a year development cycle. So I think they know. Hopefully, I hope, Jerry, I hope you sold enough, and I hope the P3 platform is propping up your business as well, because I want to see what else you're going to bring, because what I've played has been fun. Yeah, I hope that it's good enough, it's sustainable, because I think that this is just going to build and build and grow. Because honestly, I don't think that there's a P3 in New Robert Englunds that I've ever seen or even mentioned anyone talk about having. So it really sucks for me because I just can't play the thing. I know I'm super interested in... I haven't played anything besides Lexi, except for, I think, the ship one, which I think was unveiled the last time I played. Yeah, which I played that one, but I haven't played anything after that, or the newer versions of Lexi, which really stink because I really would love to give it a whirl. New version of Lexi is a lot of fun than the previous ones. Cannon Lagoon, it's fun. The baseball one is actually probably more fun than that. And, yeah, Cosmic Heart Racing is super fun because it's... I didn't even know there was a baseball one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Damn it. Somebody has to buy one. I know. It uses the Cannon Lagoon playfield swap that goes in. Ah, that's cool. So let's talk... Well, let's talk music pins, but let's talk about Madonna. I mean, ever since I've been doing this podcast, I've been wanting to say, oh, let's talk about Madonna. Never have I ever wanted to say that. I'm glad that I've gotten you comfortable enough that you were able to trust that with me. I could never say that with Ryan, but with Joe, I feel that he won't shoot me down. No, so what's actually come out this week is that there's some concept art. It looks like the Backbox concept art for a Madonna pinball machine, and it has Python Anghelo's signature on it. What is this picture? Oh, that is? Mm-hmm. Oh, I didn't know that. That, I mean, I... Do we need to talk about where her microphone is? In the middle? Do we need to remind people of who Python is? Not one person in this picture. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting placement, along with the face of the one behind the microphone. But, I mean, it's Madonna, so it's like everything goes with Madonna. So it's like you can't really criticize or there's nowhere you can't go with Madonna because she's gone there herself. She's gone through that first, yeah. Yeah, so it's like, she's like, it really is the perfect subject. Like, there's nothing, she's gotten involved with absolutely everything in her life. I mean, I would love to play a Madonna machine. I think there's tons you can do there, and there's not many people left from the old guard that can pull it off. And it's about time that we get maybe some female artists for music and see if people will buy it. Okay, so this is the whole thing. I guess we're continuing our discussion about music and pinball themes, right? And what would make a great theme. And just as a side note, Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, please listen to it. Aquabats or Aquabats, which is what Josh pronounces it, would make a fantastic pinball machine. It just would, but no one would ever make it because no one knows who Aquabats are. There you go. I've said it. So, now this is the point where you explain to me what that means and who that is. I don't know either. Okay, look up Aquabats. They are a music group that have got a very strong visual sort of themed image. Because here's the point I want to make about music pins. It is not about somebody that has good music saying, oh my God, they've got good music, give them a pin. So Muse is a good example because, you know, Muse are, for me, fantastic. Their music is amazing But visually What is it? How could you make a theme out of Muse? So when people go Oh you know Led Zeppelin Okay well What assets do you have for Led Zeppelin To build a theme around it? Iron Maiden Had such iconic albums That you could tell a story Just through the album covers and the themes That's why it worked Yeah because it definitely wasn't the music So way up Easy It really was, wasn't it? So that's why you've got to think about it. So Madonna. Would Madonna have made a good pimple machine? Because we don't know when this art was done. And it's a very, very early sketch. It literally is like a pencil drawing. Yeah. I mean, it does look ladies based on the outfit she's wearing versus what she was wearing at that time. Yeah, because she's got the pointy bra, which was the In Bed With Madonna movie. It was that tour. Yeah, and then she's dressed up as Marilyn Monroe on the left. Which was the material girl. Sure, you knew that. Yeah. So I think that that's... So it's got to be around that era. Why were you there early 90s? Yeah, I guess so. Which, you know, oddly enough, thinking back, if you put out a Madonna pin then, say it happened. Like, she herself would outdate it so quickly because of, I mean, every album with her, she's a completely different person, a completely different style, a completely different look. So it's like, from this point, and it's like a picture in time compared to what she is now or what she would be over those, over that, like, span. Like, it's like you would look at it and go like, well, this is not even Madonna, the Madonna I know. And that could be said, like, in every five-year increment. I know, I know. I think it would have been great, but... Yeah, but today, I... I mean, Dolly Parton got a pin, so... Ted Nugent got a pin, so... Yeah, there you go. Dennis Lilley got a pin. You don't... Dennis Lilley, that means... No. I'll just assume that was before my time. No, not only that, it's an Australian thing. So, you would know that there was an Australian pinball manufacturer called Hankin, and they released a pinball machine called Dennis Lilly's Howzat. Now, apparently everyone said bad. It wasn't actually too bad, that one. But, you know, Dennis Lilly was a very famous bowler, an Australian bowler back in the, I'm going to say, probably 70s or 80s, something like that. It's that old. anyway so anyone can get a pin the difference today is theme integration is so much more important when you've got video assets so you can't just have good music yeah I mean having a visual style I think Madonna has a pretty distinct visual style that you could use from any of the songs you happen to put in it you know, I mean, from burning crosses to, like, gothic themes to everything. Yeah. So I think that there's certainly enough there. It'd be up to, you know, the people behind it to decide of that massive catalog and visualizations what you go with. Who the hell knows? Like, that's such a dangerous thing to mess with, with it being such a huge thing like that. but I mean I could picture that I know it's probably not going to happen because it doesn't seem like the industry is ready for that but I could definitely see it happen and I would enjoy playing a Madonna pin like a lot of pins that I would wish would get made well because let's talk about her contemporaries because I think the problem for Madonna for me is that she's now I think Confessions of a Dance Girl was probably her last good album and I can't even tell you how long ago that was So she's a bit old right now She's a bit tired Really? Yeah She had a lot of Her last few albums Have still been big hits No, not here No, she's all but forgotten here Yeah, but you're on the You're in this little tiny corner of the world We are also in the future So Ah That's not fair You have the answer to all my questions It's true Before I do That's not fair You're cheating So the other thing That a lot of people talk about is You know, the likes of Lady Gaga Now, again, her brand was just on the up, up, up, and then she just sort of had a massive fall, and I think she's still quite relevant to reinvent herself. Massive uptake again, yeah. Yeah, but again, you would look at her and you'd say, well, would you do a Lady Gaga pinball? Would you? Yes. Yes, I would. I mean, I've always been a big Lady Gaga fan, so, I mean, I've seen her live, and, you know, I mean, she's massive again now. Like, I don't, it's hard to compare big then, big now, like, and what they compare. But, like, with the movie there that she was just in, she's huge. She has a massive, huge, big residency in Vegas. That is, like, it's a whole, it's a massive thing there. So, I mean, she's about to come out with another album. So, it's, like, now she's getting into acting. So it's like she's all, she's in every arena that, I guess if you look at, if you can look at Lady Gaga now and what, like, that brand and pass on it, then you can't, there's, you're never going to do a modern pin of any modern music. It's because I don't think it gets better than her necessarily. But it's the whole notion of a Madonna, Lady Gaga interchangeable. interchangeable, you know, people have sort of said, you know, Rihanna or any of the really top, you know, Miley Cyrus, maybe not so, but let's say a really strong female musician, would there be a market for those machines? Okay, I'll say it less subtly. Will, you know, blokes, I don't know if you guys say blokes. Do you say bloke? No. Okay. But you're welcome to say it as much as you want, because I'll laugh internally. What do you say, blokes? Blokes. You know, blokes and sheilas, right? Dudes. Yeah. Bros. Right. Bros, right? Would bros go, oh my god, yes, I would totally love to buy a Lady Gaga machine, or would they say, oh, fuck that bullshit, where's my Led Zeppelin machine? No. Do you talk about here specifically? I'm talking about overall. general no it's it's a very very super insecure like culture and i don't think that they would whether or not whether or not they want it or not i don't think they would although the fact that it hides in their basement maybe they do it because they think they could get away with it yeah but i mean it's as you know i yeah i think that that's another criticism of the pinball community is that you know they talk about what they want but they they're not actually they won't put their money where their mouth is and about this stuff as much as i wish they did because i think that But, you know, it's weird because it's almost kind of like isolationism, where it's just like the old guard, which is not a guard that either you or me are a part of, have kind of had a monopoly on what is made in pinball for a lot of ways. They have a monopoly on what gets decided as who is allowed to have stuff, and what music is allowed. Whereas being in a younger generation, it kind of is annoying that none of the music that I grew up with or either other genres, if you happen to not be into anything else besides hard rock or whatever you term Harold Smith as, I guess you'd call that rock. It's rock-ish. Yeah, it's old woman rock, if you look at the way he looks now. Yeah, I went there. But you're actually right with the Aerosmith. Really, it is a music pin that they've created their own animations to, and it's all around the band. Like, the actual songs themselves don't necessarily integrate with the machine, and they've done that well, but how many of those could you do? Yeah, I mean, honestly, if you put in the effort, You could probably do that with most people, with most, you know, artists, at least the big ones. I mean, you know, small flash-in-the-pan things where you have a very, I mean, like, a Madonna, you could do whatever. I mean, if someone likes Madonna enough, like if Zombie Yeti loves Madonna, I guarantee you that he could put together an amazing-looking Madonna machine or Franchi or anyone else. It just comes down to if a person cares about whatever it is, they're going to make it great because they know what they love about it, and they'll be able to put pen to paper, you know, and figure it out. And the music speaks for itself, and then you get to the coding part, and then it just comes to, which all of that can just be hit and miss, and who knows at that point. But, I mean, it's certainly proven that you can take copy-paste rules and still pull something off where it's still similar but different but still great. So, I mean, I hope, I really wish that we could get out of this pothole we're sitting in when it comes to the forward thinking or outside-the-box thinking when it comes to music, that we could maybe move on from all these bands that don't even tour anymore that I can't go see? Can we just bring it into at least the 90s, maybe? Maybe tickle the 2000s, something? Because at some point, they always talk about how they need to get the young kids motivated and into pinball so that we can grow pinball. And it's like, well, you're not going to do it doing this stuff. And I think that ultimately, like you mentioned about maybe the old fogies won't buy these machines because whether they like the music or not, they won't be able to deal with whatever pressures would make them not do that. I think these themes would crush on location. Yeah, I think they're doing really well on location. But when they're now saying that 50% of their market is home, they need to rely on people actually buying these machines too. Yeah, and that sucks because I wish that there was at least some segment that cared or mostly cared about location because that is a segment that some of us live in. That's where I live now. I'm probably not going to buy another machine for a while, and most of mine is either enjoying other people's collections or on location. And the majority of the people who play pinball are people who will never own games. And only you're exposed to them in bars and the growing barcades. And everything that's growing pinball is coming from the location people. So at some point, you have to pay attention to that audience. Or else they're just going to say, okay, you're not looking for me. And, you know, this isn't for me. You're looking for people who aren't even out here. So I hope they do because it's like I can only get – there's only so many kisses that I can stand. Fair enough. Well, I'm hoping to have an interview in a couple of weeks with somebody very well known in the industry. And I'm going to put that kind of question to them because I really want to focus on how you get pinball machines to the market and what sort of decisions come into deciding what sort of thing that you would go with from a commercial point of view. So hopefully we'll get some further information from that. Ooh, big market tease. There it is. Before we go into the next piece of news I just wanted to also just send out some thoughts and well wishes to Todd Taki I don't know whether you're aware but apparently Todd Taki He from TNT Amusements had a heart attack I think in the last 24 hours or last couple of days Yes, I did see that post So I just wanted to say, you know, get yourself better Look after yourself and get back to making some of those awesome videos that make us laugh. So, yep, there you go, Todd. Some thoughts and prayers are coming your way. Absolutely. I remember first discovering his videos. Yeah. That man is hilarious. He's awesome. So probably also then on the media side of things then is that, you know, we've got the IFPA World Championships coming up. Have you ever been? I don't even know if you realise how much that question sucks. I do. You do? I forget if I told you. Yeah. So, well, I did qualify two years ago. No, last year. The year it was in Toronto. I qualified. But I didn't think, me being a dumbass American, I didn't realize how close Toronto was to where I was, and apparently I didn't look at the time. I don't know what was on me there. So, like, nah, I can't afford to travel that far. I'm not going to do it. So I didn't answer. So then eventually I go, wait, Toronto's right over, we could drive there? And I'm like, oh, I'll go. And nope, too late, you didn't do it. So I ended up meeting, like, Carl D'Python Anghelo and Johnny there and checking out Adam Becker's house the day after the tournament. It was really awesome. And then we went to Canada's Wonderland the day after. So I was technically at the World Championships. I wasn't playing. but you know you can you're welcome Jeff Teolis because if I had gone he would not have played well there you go so thank you Jeff I hope he represented well I don't remember I would doubt it but no it's in Italy now and that's weirdly expensive so so we've got two players going over there which we do I guess every year that's probably not the news so but we've actually got Jason Lambert and Paul Jones, the one and two respective players in Australia. And the reason I'm bringing this up, because, you know, we talk about Australian pinball all the time, and in fact, we did a couple of weeks ago, we had a show that was all about Australian pinball. Turned out people didn't like it. I loved it. Got some great feedback as well. Anyway. Well, one person didn't like it. One person didn't like it. Yeah. Said it was down for some reason. Yeah, trending down. I don't know why you didn't want to know. I mean, who's even been to that website? I mean, did anyone hear that? I don't think so. Anyway, the reason why I'm bringing that up is that this week, the amount of media attention that it's been getting has been phenomenal. And it's really funny because you know it's made it mainstream when work people are sending you links to these articles. They know I'm into pinball. They don't know. They're going, have you heard this? It's like, yeah, how did you know? And it just means it's mainstream media. So I'm going to then put some links in the show notes. But effectively, Jason Lambert, who is the Australian number one player, has been on a lot of very, very high profile TV shows. One of them is called Sunrise. I would say your equivalent would be like a Good Morning America type thing. You know, a morning breakfast show that goes from like six in the morning till nine in the morning. I don't know. Do you have those shows? So splendid. Oh, we do. Yeah, absolutely. I'd imagine there are a hundred of them. Oh, they're the best. Yeah, we have heaps of them as well. But Sunrise was one of them, and they did like a live cross to Jason, and he interviewed really well. He's actually a good ambassador for pinball. What I mean, obviously, because you want me to elaborate, is, you know, you know when sometimes you go, oh, okay, probably not the best person, doesn necessarily put us in a positive light That can happen Jason does put us in a positive light which is great Like that stupid song Oh well this is the whole thing Every single fucking news piece on it that's been of a video format... I wonder what they played. Yeah, fucking Pinball Wizard. Yeah, great. And also, again, the format is the hosts that are completely bewildered that pinball is still a thing. Yeah, that's right. It was so adorable that you mentioned about your work interactions where people knew you played pinball and somehow it was enjoyable for you that they'd mention that. Every time anyone talks to me about pinball, it's like, oh, wow, really? What's that? You a pinball wizard? It's like, oh, fuck you, dude. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't kill Hitler. What I'd do is I would somehow remove that idea from The Who so that never get made. Oh, I hate that song so much. Just change one chord so it's off key and so it doesn't really hit. Yeah, so it doesn't... Oh, I hate it. Although Jeff did an episode on it and I'm like, yeah, fine. That's cool. But I hate the fact that it's like... It's like this normal thing that it's completely, like, fine to use that as, like, a derogatory way of making fun of us. But yet, somehow, we're fine with it. I'm not fine with it. No, it's exactly that. And it's the way you said it before. It's like people are like, you're a pinball wizard? You're deaf, dumb and blind? That's how easy pinball is? Oh, dude, I want to make you deaf, dumb and blind right now. That's what I want to do. So, yeah. I actually don't... I don't find the stigma of that song as bad as everybody else, but I get why people do it. We are going to link some articles for that, so, you know, good luck to the boys as well that are heading over to Italy for that. Yeah, pinball wizard. Speaking of media and TV things, so we did mention when Ryan was on the show that he had been filmed for a TV show called The Great Weekend. Who's Ryan? My son. Name's Merid. He's not dead to us just yet. Give it some time. But he's a bit of a rivalry, new versus old. Is he here? Shit. I didn't know when he heard that. He has actually been messaging me whilst we've been recording. Anyway. So, I know he's been messaging, and the other thing, it's distracting. I like it. Shut up, though. So, yeah, so just letting you know, everybody, the show will be aired on June the 9th in Australia. So, I don't need to mention again that. There goes half your audience. Like, so you're saying I can't see it? I don't know whether you were. Sometimes, because a lot of things that get posted in America, particularly the UK. The UK is the worst. They region lock a lot of their content. So I personally blame Neil McCrae. So here's the conundrum. See, I'm sure you've heard this saying before, but here it goes. If something happens in Australia but not in America, did it happen? Yeah, that's right. That is exactly true. I don't know. But I will, when it happens... Tape it. Send it to me. I'll try and tape it, or I will at least link it to the show. Oh, the other works. YouTube. Yeah, it'd be really fun to see, because what we don't know is how much is actually going to be left in, as opposed to how much he was interviewed. This is going to be really fun. What's your name, Ryan? All right. Thank you, John. Exactly. What else have we got? So, you know, there's new Black Knight code. I don't care. You didn't read it? Do you know what? I actually did read it. I've actually got it up here, right? I think it's great. Fixed the dill shot lights being hidden in the top lanes. Dude, that is a funny story. So we thought that the people at Pinvest were just being dicks and they turned it off, which I mean they were, but not for that specific thing. But apparently it was just, oops, we took it out of the code. way to go Tim the top skill shot didn't exist in the game anymore right okay so it was just like so we'd play and be like it was there but it wasn't visually there so I guess if you were just happy to flip around and you happened to get it like hey it's still there well so they've obviously done some fixes and some tweaking and the new thing I can see is they've modified the behavior of the five main modes yeah which I think is a really nice change I like it the things that they The new, everything under the news section, I think, are all really good changes. We don't even have one. Like, so, you know, it's all well and good for you. I don't know. They're great changes because when I read it, the skill shot wasn't on and mother-in-law was a moot. We haven't pulled you to Aussies. Seriously. Fucking hell. It's all right. It's all right. I mean, you could just, you know, move. I mean, you could just... Over here. Could. I hear we have a pretty decent dollar, at least compared to some real back-hole countries. I don't know. I mean, I've heard a lot of people. They're saying. Yeah, apparently. Anyway, so that's new code. Everybody going up your data machines to 0.94. I'll link something close. I'm looking forward to it. What else? So, colored DMD. Okay, right. We're talking about colored DMD. Their next release Is Austin Powers Yeah baby You made a joke before And you were like What Do people actually play that machine Or something like that So I've never seen I've seen my toy too So Okay It's got a toilet It does have a toilet It has one of the best Spinners In pinball Is it Yeah I mean yeah I guess But it doesn't spin It does And it's It's a It's a little person It is Yeah it's Do you know that's one of three toilets I believe in pinball around that game? Well, yeah, because Junkyard's the other one, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Well, that's one. What's the other one? You're still missing one. We've had this before. I think this might have even been a bit of trivia that we had on our show. I can't remember. Did you fail it? I always fail them. It's a cartoon. Is it? That should narrow it down. There's not many cartoons. That was from the movie. No That kind of would have been The kind of thing to have a toilet Is all I'm saying Yeah It's made out of bones The eggs, I suppose Come on Come on Martin Come on Cartoon It's a cartoon What? Name one other Pinball machine That's based on a cartoon Oh Come on This is the only one And they should definitely Make a new one Because the original Was terrible? No Because it was good but it was very limited. Oh, okay. The Jetsons. Oh, fuck's sake. That's figures. Okay, fine. There's two. Okay. The one based on a good cartoon that's still on the air, airing new episodes. Oh, Simpsons. But the... All right. Does that work for me? Shit! There's another one? All right, fine. Touche. Now you've made me the idiot. You just exposed the already known fact. but you didn't have to point it out. No, South Park. Right, yes, of course it did. Mr. Hankey. Yes. Hey, girl. That was actually really good. Well done. They need to make a new one. Yeah. So, the point I want to make about Austin Powers is, looking back now, I look at it now, the thing that stands out probably the most is, and this is just by looking at it, because I know everyone says that I like the rules, it's very basic and it's practically Monster Bash, right? But, did you just call Monster Bash basic? No. Oh, you did. All right, what's your email address? This is the part where I'm supposed to say, like, send your emails to Mark. Where you can say we're trending down. No, what I'm saying is that looking now, when it first came out, I was just like, oh my God, this is awesome powers. People like freaking love awesome powers. I didn't until the third movie. like everybody and then obviously Mike Myers did a whole, soured his whole image with that guru thing right so the art's really bad is what I'm saying with Austin Powers it's basic and blurry and oh it's awful but I honestly, if I had a good collection I would have to have an Austin Powers just for the theme alone. It just, thematically, it's great. I love the toys in it as well. You know. Yeah, it has some neat, neat toys. I mean, I haven't really spent any time with it, so I can't even really mention about how much theme is actually in there. I have no idea. I'm sure if it was made today, I'm sure it would be awesome. Yeah. But, you know, again, it comes back to, you know, themes and, I don't know, whether you should take that theme and do something really great with it or whether you've got something like Aerosmith, which we said before, which is really not a great theme, but they made it a good game. I mean, you know, there's been some other music pins like, you know, Rolling Stone. There's an Inside the Podcast coming out right now of me listening to that and trying to... I knew where it was going. I knew where it was going. But the journey there was fucking hilarious. I turned off my mic at one point because I was laughing. So that was good. I don't care if anybody else liked that. I loved it. It was just for you, Joe. It was just for you. So all I'm saying is, we forgot to mention something about Rolling Stones and that was my segue to bring it back in. Yeah, that segway went off a bridge It was good It was everywhere Syllables were very Distinct Everyone knows Rolling Stones for me Is I think just the worst game that Stern's ever made But visually Actually not bad You need to play more Stern games What was worse than Rolling Stones? CSI No, it's not That game is terrible No, it's conch. Oh, yes, of course it is. But what I'm saying is it's not worse than Rolling Stones. I don't know. I just got the play of Rolling Stones at NYPC. Yeah, I think I did get that right. I thought it was minus a couple things and some scoring things. I think it's actually a really good machine, minus the fact that it's Rolling Stones, which I don't like Rolling Stones. It's Mick on a Stick. Mick on a Stick is the problem where you've got what could be a great layout, but you can't get to the right layout because every time you go to flip, he just comes across and blocks the ball. It's so frustrating. It's just... But, I mean, to be fair, can you name a pin that has better theme integration than that? I mean, just Mick being annoying. No. Every time you go to do something, he's like, I'm here. God, get away, Mick. Stop it. It's like the best accent. Just prancing around. and be like, Mick, I'm trying to, what are you doing? Just move, I'm trying, come on. I'm trying to have fun here. No, he is stopping everybody's fun. See, that's what, every time they think that maybe they'll stop touring, he's like, no, coming back. God damn it. Like, apparently they've got, like, a new album coming out. Now, it has to be a new album of greatest hits. But, you know, how can you have, like, the best of the greatest hits, the Ultimate Collection, probably then the Platinum Collection, then the Ultimate Platinum Collection. How do you keep reissuing all your greatest hits? Can you believe it? We're still not dead. Edition. Yeah. I don't know. Anyway. But, no, I think that that game has a ton of potential. And I was thinking, because of what you mentioned, like, Mick is the problem, right? so you fix up some scoring in that game maybe you make it more into what a modern music pin looks like because people forget that that was their first music pin I believe so I mean they clearly didn't really know how to do it properly at that time and that was also in the downturned dark ages of Stern where they were putting out stuff like that so say you jump that forward and you go boom Metallica-level reader to game that much effort in, blah, blah, blah. I think that most of it is fine, like, is fix some rules, maybe add some rules. And I was trying to think of, like, how do you fix, like, the mic problem? Because I think you do gotta take that out. So then I'm like, well, you could do, like, a crane thing, but I'm like, nah, you won't be able to do that across the whole playfield. So then I was thinking, like, of all the mechs that have been used in pinball that could possibly, reproduce that. Take a guess at what I came up with. Cactus Canyon. Something like that, where you have pop-up drop targets. Say you hit a combo and then one of them pick up, like pop-up, and that's Mick. And then you can hit it and it goes back down. It's there, same purpose, but it's not omnipresent all the time and annoying. so you can even have like the same array like the circular array with all the notes but instead of each note being on this track and this moving thing of annoyance, just make like pop-up targets stand-ups that could come up, hit it goes back down I get that, but I think you were the one that said, I think about the Batman you know, Dark Knight in 66 the wrecking ball or whatever it is, right? It is effectively similar to Mick on a Stick in that it gets in the way. But why doesn't that annoy you? And I'll tell you, the reason is because it's not as frenetic as Mick on a Stick. And it just... Just like the real Mick? Yeah. It can't sound a little. It's not just like running around like, Whee! Look at me! No, it is exactly that. It's just because it's scooting around all over the place. It's like, I can't stop and aim my shot because I know as soon as I do, it's just going to get in the way. Yeah, it moves way too much. It doesn't chill in an area like the crane does. But also, it's very, it's like, it's this target, and it's just a target. You hit it, it's going to do bad things, like 100% of the time. There's no, like, I'm going to hit it from the side like the crane, or I could hit it on the way down, or any of, like, the more skillful, fun interactions that are on the crane, or like, oh, the crane's going to push it, and it's going to go over here, or it's going to mess with it. Like, everything that that toy does is annoying and aggravating. And it has this giant track that the ball gets stuck in. It's like, cool. and then it comes over and it's like he's running over to kick a ball out the outline. You're like, boom, nailed it. Oh, good thing this track guided it right to where it was going to go. Or it has some cool concepts like the fact that he moves over and he blocks the add-a-ball shot when you're in rock star multiball, I think. So it's like, oh, that's kind of cool that he blocks that. But it's like the same thing. You could accomplish that with a drop target or something else that's not as invasive. So I think if they could just remove that mech and put in something that functions the same, but is different than that, I think that that game could be good, outside of the fact that I just don't like the Rolling Stones, but I don't like KISS either, but I still like that game. So I think if they re-vaulted that, I think that that could actually be a really good game. Yeah, I hope they don't. But let me just... I'm just going to say some album titles. You ready? Sure. Okay, ready. Big hits, Flowers, Through the Past Darkly, Stone Age, Gimme Shelter, Hot Rocks 1964-1971, Milestones, Rock and Rolling Stones, More Hot Rocks, No Stone Unturned, Metamorphosis, Made in the Shade, Rolling Gold, The Very Best of the Rolling Stones, Get Stoned, 30 Greatest Hits, Time Waits for No One, Solid Rock, Slow Rollers, Sucking in the 70s, Story of the Stones rewind 1971 to 1984 singles collection The London Years Jump Back The Best of the Rolling Stones 40 Licks Rarities 1971 to 2003 Grrr and Wait what? Grrr That's a name? Yeah of an album Wow and then Honk Oh is the latest compilation album so I don't know I mean this is taken from Wikipedia, maybe some were different markers, but 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, wait, do it again, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 compilation albums that Roley's done. Martin, counting, drive! For your entertainment. So, they suck bad. I mean, I don't like them, But, I mean, I don't know. I'm still fine with it being a good game. Or fine, just take that theme and make it something else. I'm fine. There you go. Lady Gaga. Boom. Go. Do. Or Madame. Or whatever. I don't care. I like the layout, I guess. Yeah. I don't like the band, but I like that pin. So, re-theme it. Vault it. Make it something else. I'm fine with that. Because I think, I don't think, that's the thing. It's hard to know. did that game fail because it was Rolling Stones and Rolling Stones sucked? Wait for the email. Or did it fail because the pin wasn't that good? I think... Combination of both? I don't know. Yeah, it could have been. I also think it was actually being released when they weren't selling a lot of units anyway. So it was probably just a perfect storm of bad events. And I don't think there's that many of them at all either. I think it's a rather rare game too because of that. So, yeah, there you go. That segue was worth it. Yeah, thank you. Good stuff. I couldn't even bother trying to do a segue into Wonka. I got to play Wonka this week. Have you played Wonka yet? I did at New York City. Yeah. And it was fun. I had no idea what was going on. Yes, right. I really, really hated the upper right area. Yes. It really pissed me off. I hate the fact that... So far, we're having the same experience. Yeah, you can't see the ball. You can't see the ball. Before it gets to the flipper. Yes. At which point, when it gets there, you can't hit it anymore because it's already passed. You have to lean around the side to just look up there to see where the ball is. Wait a minute. So, do you have a production machine or a prototype? It's a prototype. Okay, that's why. I was told by Joe Katz. Is that right? Yep, probably. That, I guess, the production machine is going to have a clear ramp. I don't know if it being clear will be enough to see that area. I would prefer like a wire frame, a wire form, because then I will 100% be able to see. So I'm not sure about that part. But also, when you played, was yours a standard or a premium? So it was a, well, yeah, the limited edition. So it had the Wonka Vader, but did you ever get it there? No, I didn't for a number of reasons. There was actually a problem with the machine that we had. I couldn't either. the actual right flipper was extraordinarily weak and I know people say oh but you can go in and turn up the strength right I know you can no it actually turned out that this one actually had the wrong spring on it the machine had been sort of lent out and somebody put the wrong spring so it was too strong so it just wasn't getting enough power so that made it harder to play so throughout this night I will actually link in the show notes the stream that I did of it people were just finding it very difficult. And if you had flippers that were stronger, it probably would have been more enjoyable. It just sort of reminded me, this is what I've said, it's the love child of Wizard of Oz and Dialed In. There you go. And Rollercoaster Taken. Yeah, now, and I play Rollercoaster Taken a lot. I'm sorry. I know. I appreciate your congratulations. it actually doesn't feel at all. It doesn't feel like it, but there is a lot of similarities. There is a lot of similarities, and I called that out ages ago when we were doing the reveal review when the Loser Kid Boys were on. But it certainly visually has a sort of layout in a way similar to Wild Crescent Tycoon. Do you know why it doesn't shoot like it? because it's not really like it. Well, yeah, but also because the flippers are not even close to as strong as they are on Roller Coaster Tycoon. Probably. When I was playing it, I was never reminded of the fact that I had said that it looked like Roller Coaster Tycoon. It's not like it. Yeah. My big takeaway when I play almost all their games at all shows is there's always something wrong with the games, and the flippers are always super, super weak. It's like we played it at Pinfest, and it's like you couldn't hit half the shots. The flippers were super weak on both of them, and it's just like, ugh. And I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just if it's a power issue, then they don't compensate and turn up the flipper power to make it actually flip well, but it's just every single time I play their games, it's just they're always so weak. Even, you know, I got to play Pirates for the first time, which was good, It was good, but I also kind of had weak flippers, and the upper, the flippers, weirdly enough, which I think, I showed this to Joey, he had no idea what was on, because I asked him, I'm like, is this normal? Because, again, not being exposed to the game. In the ship, on this copy, the little flippers up there, they literally went up a fourth of an inch each. Right. Like, just enough to be able to tell that they went up. Right. But they didn't, like, yeah, the end of a stroke was, like, a half an inch. Max. I was like, that's normal. That seems really weird. Like, they're not... They're barely flipping. It's like cat passing on little flippers. Like, what is this? I mean, I guess it kind of functioned, but, like, you couldn't trap or do anything. It was just kind of like, eh, none. I know. And so this is the reason why I gave very unfavorable... I mean, you could also categorize it as scathing reviews of Dialed In when it first came out. I hated it. absolutely hated it and told everybody like strangers in the street I would stop them and tell them how much I hate it, darling. I hate this phone game. And they're like, what's a phone game? It's about a phone. And they're like, go away, stop bothering me. I actually quite like the thing. But it was because all the machines that came out of Australia, by default, had really sort of spongy, limp flippers. But once you actually turn the power right up, that's when that game transforms because it doesn't matter if you've got the best layout if you've got the best art if you've got the best rules if your flippers can't flip the ball to get to the layout it doesn't matter, all of that stuff does not matter yeah, and that's not an Australian problem, that's a problem with all the dialed in 0-2 because I find that they all are super squishy and like I watched, they did I think their final stream they did showing off the new dialed-in code when they revealed the theater multiball thing. The way that that game played, I would kill to have a dialed-in that played that way. Oh, I hit the left orbit and it went to the upper flipper. What? And on the fly, I can shoot the theater from both flippers. That's a thing? Really? I've never played a dialed-in where that's possible on any three of those things. That's exactly right. It's so aggravating. So this is the problem. You're absolutely highlighting. When you actually have weak flippers, it means you cannot... Because you've got to hit the ball really early on the flipper to be able to get it up to the middle of the ball. Unnaturally early. But you don't have enough power when you've got weak flippers to flip early. So it always just goes left and right angles when you've got weak flippers. That's just the nature of it. And you're exactly right. It's like playing Wizard of Oz with weak flippers on. Yeah. Yeah, because pinball's still fun. So this is what was happening with Wonka, is, you know, there's a ramp just to the right of the... whatever that machine is, which has the multiball lock in it, and it was just very difficult to get up there because... Oh, that was the hard one? Yeah. Well, it was actually even... The right ramp. The right ramp was actually fine because you could at least get to that on the end of the flipper. you know what I mean but those we'll call them the roller coaster tycoon shots up on the top right of the play field they're going to love that yeah you couldn't get to those because you needed they're right at the back of the machine and you needed to flip early and there just wasn't enough power but you could still hit them you just it was just you've got to fix those with those guys well yeah it was like the because of playing the game I mean I played it a lot at New York City because the queues were long so I was like six deep so I was like I'm going to go play that. Like, I couldn't, I didn't see a single person ever get into that Wonka, that Wonka elevator lock. It's like for what, I guess it was $1,000 to keep off of the pro. It doesn't get used that often. No, that's right. I don't know if it's just because I, is it the, is it the shot above the right upper flipper that feeds that? Yeah, it is the upper right mini loop from the left flipper. Okay, from the upper left. Okay, yeah, because that's also that upper left flipper on that one was just such garbage. Yeah. Like, you couldn't even do anything up there. Even from, which is a cool thing, the fact that it grabs the ball and then drops it. But it's like, it was like, to even get it into that area, you had to hit it as if you were, like, backhanding a ramp on ACDC. Right. Like, that part of the flipper. Yeah. What? I know what you mean. And when you've got Pirates of the Caribbean, which has got the upper, you know, loop from heaven, right, where multiple shots just happen to feel good, this one just feels a little bit clunky. Yeah, which I'm going to have to die to ever get to see. No pirates anywhere. Okay, and the other thing I'll say about Wonka is it looks so much better in person than it does from any of the pictures or videos that you will see. It is actually quite a very pretty machine in person. Yeah, it's colourful. It's cool looking. I mean, seeing it for the first time and playing it for the first time, I was more focused on trying to figure out what it was and, like, what to do than actually just sitting there and looking at it and admiring and appreciating that part of it. The one thing I definitely, I mean, I have no idea what code that was, but I just, like, the times where I looked up at the screen, there's, like, nothing from the movie in that game, practically. Oh, I know. It's just this blank thing where just, oh, look, an Oompa Loompa walked by. I don't know I actually didn't bother me but I also found that I wasn't getting really a lot of information from the back screen that was telling me what I was doing but it's still early code and also I wasn't getting enough feedback from the game whether it's callouts or lashes to know what I was doing and that's kind of what I was saying why I think it's kind of like a love child of Wizard of Oz and Dialed In it looks and plays a bit more like Dialed In but has the same rule accessibility of Wizard of Oz in that everything's flashing doesn't really tell you what you need to do. Yeah, it's just kind of... Yeah, there's no... It's not like... Well, at least dialed in, like, it's pretty... It's very obvious what you should be doing at most points. Yep. Whereas, yeah, there's a lot of crap going. You're like, what am I supposed to be shooting? Where should I be shooting? It's kind of like, you know, it's Hobbity in that way that it's just kind of like... It's just... I feel like there's no other games that I play that I have no idea what's going on more than Jersey Jack games. it's just like but that's so fun it's kind of fun to then discover but what I want to say is it's just got this really steep learning curve up front and I like to we used to talk about this with Ryan all the time I don't like people telling I don't like spoilers right so with a machine don't tell me how to play a game I just want to turn the machine on and flip and play and play and play and slowly work this stuff out because for me that's part of the discovery fun yeah And I'm like that too, but it really, really pissed me off with being a Hobbit owner and the fact that people just was like, no, guess what? I don't want to learn how to use this place. I've judged your game and I don't care. And it's too hard and I don't know what to do and I don't give a shit.