What's that sound? It's For Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast. Welcome back to For Amusement Only. This is Nick Baldrige, and I have a special guest today, the EM Dungeon Master himself, James Willing from Spooky Pinball Podcast. How are you, James? Oh, not too bad. Thanks. Excellent. So I understand that you are recently back from the Midwest Gaming Classic. That's correct. Went up there, hung out for the weekend with Charlie and gang. Had a good time. Saw a lot of fun machines, both from the EM to the modern and all things in between. So it's a good way to spend a few days. Yeah. Always fun to go to a show. I hear there were some interesting happenings this time. The sell-through of America's Most Haunted, of course, which is very exciting news. And also the day one Pinball's Orgasm Master reveal was there. Is that correct? Yes. That's Terry's new venture from the guy that runs Pinball Life. and it's an interesting thing, it's kind of a throwback to almost the bagatelle sort of system but with a few modern twists to appeal to a more contemporary crowd although it does hold many of the original features of the early machines for instance, you still have to tally up your own score that's pretty interesting in a solid-state system like that. Yeah, the interaction of the electronic side really with the game is limited to a couple of effectively bonus holes, which if you manage to land balls in two select holes on the play field and then drop another ball down the gobble hole, it will punt the other two balls up to the next hole on the board, increasing the score. which is kind of a fun feature. But, yeah, you still have to do your own math. Well, math is good. Now, do you know if the original Contact Master had the kick-up feature? That I don't. Not a machine I'm particularly familiar with. Me either. But I find it interesting, this idea of a revival. one thing that also interests me is the fact that this game doesn't have a coin slot or coin slide rather do you have any idea why that might be? I think the intent was because it's also a relatively compact machine as compared to a really a full pin of any vintage so I believe the intent is it's really targeted for the home and collector market rather than the rather than route operators. The bar and other operator markets. I kind of had a thought that maybe it was to avoid gambling restrictions that might still be in effect in some localities. That's a distinct possibility. No credit counter on it. Yeah. You know, it might be a stretch to go too far afoul of the regulations. But, yeah, probably just as well to not tempt fate. Sounds good. So were there any good wood rails there? No, honestly, not that I noticed. And, you know, honestly, the EMs were a little maybe less represented than they were last year, but there were a number of, you know, decent later units. There were also a couple of actual smaller EM shooting games there that were actually fairly interesting. Because you say to a lot of people, like an EM gun game, they think of the rifle games that were fairly prevalent in the early 60s and early 60s, 70s. this one actually and I'll be honest I don't know the date on this one although I would guess either very early 60s or late 50s because it was a smaller form factor and it was a pistol based game so that was rather nice to see those are unusual to find nowadays was it Chicago Coin to be honest I'd have to go back and then grab the pictures I made it a point to shoot pictures of basically every machine in the exhibit hall because that's the only way I can remember things half the time I do the same thing yeah those are interesting games I've never played a pistol one so that would be a treat do you have lighted scoring or score reels I believe it was lighted scoring. I don't think it had reels. Interesting. And either a couple of the people that were playing it had extremely quick trigger fingers or this had some sort of rapid fire function because a few people I saw playing it were getting shots off in extremely rapid succession. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Well, I've kind of started to stay on the Midwest gaming path, but I haven't really asked you much about yourself here. My typical first question is, how old are you? That's a great question. Not a number I track all the time. Fifty-seven, if my math is correct. Making you do math again. Yeah. Okay. And do you remember what the first machine, either pinball or arcade, that you played was? Oh, that's asking a lot from the memory. Actually, in all likelihood, it would have been a bingo game. There was a – I used to live out on the West Coast, and my grandparents, who actually raised me, had a bunch of friends in the area down towards Tigard. And there was a little bar there that they used to go to with their friends a lot. And at the time, I don't know if I would say it wasn't exactly frowned upon, but at least the people around this particular bar tended to just kind of ignore it. if there were no other kids of my age around, they would toss me a handful of nickels and let me go off into the corner and play the machine. So that was probably the first that I was exposed to on a regular basis. Yeah, that's been so far back, I couldn't come up with its name on a bet to save me. All right, I'll leave that one for now. Well, in this location, were you aware if they were paying off winners? No. It wouldn't have surprised me just due to the style of location, but that was not something I ever had to deal with, being probably about six or seven at the time. I could have cared less. It's just if I could manage to get the numbers to roll up so I could keep punching the buttons and getting the lights to flash, I was happy for the evening. Well, good. Good. So that was your first exposure to bingos as well. Do you remember your first pin game? I want to say probably the first one that comes to mind It's probably one of the first ones I owned was a Gottlieb Scuba because I remember the theme appealed to me. And if my occasionally wayward memory is behaving somewhat at the moment, I believe I actually got the machine from the owner of a pool hall in Beaverton that I did a lot of work on his machines. And he, rather than dealing with any of the local operators, he bought a bunch of his own machines, only to find out that they occasionally went awry and needed repair. And if he called the local operators, they would do it for the appropriate price. But I tended to hang out there after school. A bunch of us would go over and play pool. And one day he was fighting with one. I said, well, heck, I have fiddled with some of these. Let me have a shot. And he somewhat skeptically tossed me the keys and go, yeah, fine, just don't break anything so I don't have to pay any more for this. Got it running and kind of became the de facto mechanic for his machines for, I think, pretty much as long as he kept the pool hall open. And I think I actually got the scooper from him. I think I talked him out of it, that and a little money. Very cool. So that was my next question, is your first repair situation. What attracted you to working on the machines? I had always had a fascination with machines and mechanisms, which eventually led into computers, which kind of became the predominant career with some occasional sojourns in different directions. but yeah the pinball machines just struck me they were obviously mechanical you could tell that just by watching them or listening to them and it was something that I could get a hold of or get access to and that especially once I got my own I could tinker with it to my heart's content and nobody there was only myself to get upset if I messed something up so it was a safe place to play Gotcha. And do you have a particular favorite feature on bingos? I think playing for the increasing odds is one of my favorite things about them although not necessarily for the reason people would think just for the point of driving up the numbers in the proper situation driving up your payout but I love the idea that a purely mechanical machine can pull off those sorts of calculations generating the random cycles coming up with these odds being able to calculate scores like that it was actually it's actually an interesting sort of retrospective thing because last year at Midwest Gaming during one of the panels one of the Stern programmers was speaking, and he said he had actually just recently gotten his initial introduction to EMs. And he was amazed the sorts of things that the machines were capable of doing without a computer or without any electronics at all. And, you know, that's part of the reason I've loved the EM genre, shall we say, for all this time. Yeah, they can be aggravating us all. get out sometimes when you have to work on them. But, you know, that's, you know, true even for, you know, more contemporary machines. Ask anybody with a Star Trek Next Generation. But, yeah, I still find the mechanisms, you know, you know, fascinating and something I always like to tinker with. And, you know, still to this day, that's why I'm, you know, that's why I have a bunch of EMs in the mix while I have, at the moment, two bingo machines sitting in the place driving me up the walls. I should. I actually have to go back and think to because I think I mentioned I need to sit down and of course if I can get my computer out of its meltdown state, go do my segment for the month here probably this weekend, I was going to mention, and since I have you here, I'll mention it now. I would like to thank you for some insights, because you're, and I don't remember the episode number. I was caught up, and then I got busy for a few days when I got back from Midwest Gaming, and I'm behind again. You were. You did. You did an episode where you kind of focused on the comeback key feature. And in the Bali London I'm working on, it has that feature. and I have largely been ignoring it because I looked at it and said, okay, it's an operator function. I'll just leave it. It should pretty much stay out of my way. Right, because you're not twisting it all the time. You're not running up the credits with it. Yeah, so I'll come back to it. And then I listened to your episode on it and your explanation of, you know, the feature and how it interacted with the other systems in the machine. and listening to the episode, I'm just kind of going off on my little mental checklist of, okay, this problem, that problem, this problem, that problem, and this all come back here. No pun intended. And I went in and looked at it and found out and discovered fairly quickly, either through just, you know, fatigue in the contact or wear in the lock cam, that even though the lock was turned all the way over to what should have been the operate position, it didn't close all the switches. Yeah. And I went and poked at that. I actually cheated because it was late that night, and I'm going, I wonder. I took a post-wrapper and shoved under it to get it to close rather than fight with the lock, kicked the machine back on, flicked the coin switch, and it immediately started going through a game start cycle, which I'd been fighting with for probably weeks, trying to get it to do that from the coin switch rather than having to reach into the bag and do it. So probably about better than half the problems I'd been fighting went away with that single adjustment that I'd been ignoring up until this point. So thank you. That probably saved me a number of indentations in the wall that I don't have to fix now. Well, you're very welcome. That certainly frustrated me to death when I first picked up the double up that I have because it just wouldn't behave. And nothing that I did seemed to make any difference. And, you know, looking at the schematics, I always came back to the comeback key. and said, you know, I'm not touching this thing, but surely it's got something to do with it here. So it's the only thing I haven't adjusted or cleaned. So I did, and boom, it worked. Yeah, it's incredible. And going back to your comment about the mechanical computers, that's the very thing that fascinates me as well, just how the various switch states, when there are so many switches that are some in constant rotation, allow for the machine to calculate exactly what you're doing and to know when to lock you out. It's all quite incredible the way it works together. There were some very talented people that worked at Bally. Oh, yes. And also United, I assume, although I've never had my head in one of those. Yeah, I should take some pictures of this Hawaii and probably send you a, you know, we've had a couple of passing discussions on it. You know, a lot of it is similar conceptually, you know, timer, mixer. As I think I mentioned, one of the kind of predominant features on the United games have tended to be, instead of having buttons, as the Bally machines do, for selecting features unlike the Magic Screen or the Mystic Lines or whatever, there's a large dial on the coin door on many of the United games that once you hit the proper feature, it unlocks that dial. And at that point, you can rotate it, and that's what gives you your control of the screen. Interesting. And shifting numbers and features. So that's one thing that is definitely unique to the Uniteds. That's quite cool. I've seen several of the United back glasses, and I have to say that I'm impressed with the artwork as well. What is the United machine that you're working on again? You said that just a second ago. Yeah, Hawaii. Okay. Yeah, I was just going to say, I've heard a lot about it, why? And I'm thinking it's probably from the podcast. Yeah, possibly. I've mentioned it a few times. I had also made the comment at one point, you know, kind of a joking reference to the age. This was one of those rare occasions that I actually get to work on a machine that is older than I am. That's some of the older machines are really incredibly fascinating to work on, like ones from the 30s and so forth. just how they do what they do with so little, and especially directly post-war as well, ones from like 1947, where there were wire shortages and all kinds of interesting things in the mix. That fascinates me as well. As you can tell, pretty much everything fascinates me. It's always good to have interests. It's what keeps life, you know, interesting. That's redundant. So did you ever play bingo on location for keeps? Not that I recall, because most of the places, I've never been much for the bar or tavern scene, aside from the early days when that was there with the grandparents and the distraction over in the corner. So most of the other places I tended to hang out where there were machines didn't have bingos. Even the pool hall generally didn't. And then we had a couple of fairly good-sized arcades in town over the years, and they were all what would be considered the family entertainment centers today. so they were all the lighter fare. A lot of this was even pre-Redemption days. Even though, well, that started to come in later. But yeah, I don't think I ever actually played bingos on location for coin. Very good. And what was your favorite game to play on location? just any time in your life. Boy, that again is stretching the memory back quite a ways. I think my favorite all-around game for just the thing I will go back to all the time, and this is probably going to maybe spoil the reputation a bit, but if you go back far enough, even those were EMs, are skee-ball lanes. tend to be... I own two of them. They are... I don't know if I would say sadly, but they are both the later electronic styles, even though one is the classic, you know, kind of classic design. Because when you do find the older mechanical skee-ball lanes still running around, they tend to still get a fairly decent price. But yeah, I'd say... And I think it testifies to the longevity of skee-ball just in general, that even if you go to the modern locations, something like a Dave & Buster's or, you know, a lot of, even a lot of the, you know, a lot of the bar cages and stuff, you'll still find, you know, some number of skee-ball lanes running around. So, yeah, I'd say that's probably, you know, if not the absolute favorite one, It's got to be one of the top three because it's something – if I go somewhere and I see a skee-ball lane, I'm going to throw a few rounds on it. It's basically guaranteed. I enjoy those as well. Did you play much of the ball bowlers or shuffle bowlers? Oh, yeah. I'm a bowling nut, as you may have gathered. You made a comment to the hat on my picture on Google. I'm a bowler. I have been forever, basically. Bowling was basically what got me through school because it was the thing that kept me in school, basically, to stay on the school bowling team. So, yeah, I've had some ball bowlers over the years. I've had a number of shuffle bowlers. I still have one. It's a United Skippy, which is a 1963 vintage shuffle bowler. And again one of these cases of where I am still fascinated and amazed by what can be done with just relays cams and motors Because unlike the first shuffle bowler I had which was a Keeney team player which was actually a 10 shuffle bowler the Skippy, well, the Keeney machine did not keep proper bowling score. It wasn't quite that smart. So you could rack up some really impressive games on that. No bearing on reality. And it was also, I think it was, I think the team bowler with a, I think, 58 vintage, did not have the flip-up retractable pins that most people would associate with a ball bowler or a shuffle bowler. The pins were actually fixed, and they were illuminated internally. Ooh, neat. So when you effectively hit the pin, the light went out. Yeah. which could be kind of interesting if you left like a back row pin, you might have to kind of wibble around to see what you're shooting at. Yeah. But it was fun. I had that for a long time. And like I said, I have the Skippy now, which does keep proper regulation bowling scores. It also does flash and a couple of other game variations. variations and again fully em steppers relays gears motors cams and you know but again just even just just even the idea of proper bowling scoring where it has to calculate you know strike you know current you know 10 plus your next two balls spare you know 10 plus your next ball or in this case puck and being able to manage those things and you know also things if you have like two or three strikes in a row yeah dealing dealing with those calculations and and managing to deal with that so yeah it just now that's all handled with a huge number of steppers yes yeah yes so even more than in a bingo machine um well probably probably close i'm yeah as far as Yeah, probably more because you – and this is a six-player, the Skippy. Wow. So, yeah, so aside from just being able to keep track of it, it's got to be able to keep track of it for each individual player. Right. So aside from just, you know, dealing with the normal things you have to deal with in a multiplayer, you know, EM, this one has to effectively have be able to store game state for each player because it has to be able to keep track of if a given player has made a strike or a spare and be able to deal with that when their next turn comes up plus it also understands 10th frame your second and third extra balls in the 10th depending again on if you throw a strike or a spare which may not seem like a calculation, but again, it's a condition and a state the machine has to deal with. And it has to deal with that for every player. So, yeah, there are some there are definitely some wild collections of switching going on in that critter. I believe it. So, is that real scoring? Yes. Yeah. So you have the same challenges, just many duplicates in cleaning and fixing one of those that you do in a pin game. Yes. And as far as repair or refurbishment, do you typically start with steppers, score reels or something else entirely? Generally, me personally, and I think as I've commented a number of times, I don't claim to be the all-encompassing expert. I'm not out there saying this is the gospel, this is how you shall do things. This is things that have worked for me over the years. I tend to start with score reels because they tend to be the most visible and the things that are running all the time. so they're the things most likely to get gummed up or to have a switch fatigue or something like that and once I've gotten past that then I can treat that as an indication of how well the machine is operating otherwise as I play and regardless of if it's a shuffle bowler or a pinball machine or whatever the methodology is the same you should get a predictable reaction in your scoring regardless of, you know, shuffle, bowler, pin, you hit a target, you should get a certain score. You make a shot in the bowling, you should get a certain score. And so I take that as my insight into the overall health of the machine and then go through, you know, basically go through an entire game and just kind of observe how things are behaving. Score reels are the most obvious, but even just your ball and play counter or your features counter or a multiplayer, if it's stepping properly between the players or if it feels sluggish. because most multiplayer games, be it bowler, pinball, or whatever, will tend to have some indication of which player is currently up, if it's an eliminated number next to the score reels or if it turns on the lights on the score reels. So even through observation, you can just get a feel for how well the steppers are advancing if you hit end of ball or end of turn and it just pretty much snaps over to the next player, that stepper is probably in pretty good shape. But if there's a drag or a pause, then there's something that needs to be looked at. And some people might call that a shortcut. They say, well, you ought to go in there and clean everything. Yes, that is a valid point. But in a lot of cases, if it's my own machine, yeah, I will probably at some point go through and tear through everything. But if I'm doing machine for somebody else, especially if they've asked me to come to their home to look at something, they in all likelihood would like to keep the costs fairly reasonable and get the thing playable. they may not be as bothered by a little bit of sluggishness as long as the game performs properly. So in those cases, yeah, I'm not necessarily going to go through every little thing unless they ask me to. And a lot of that just depends on the person. If they have it around purely for entertainment, they want it to play. they're not going to get horribly wound up over an extra quarter second, half second waiting for the thing to advance from one player to the other whereas if you've got somebody who's a fairly serious collector then yeah they're going to be they want to hit it do it, clean it as long as we all understand it's going to cost more so again that's just kind of whatever the particular situation is. Fair enough. You had mentioned that you're refurbishing these bingos for somebody else. These are not your own? The London is mine. I purchased it from a person in Arkansas, actually. That was a nice little drive. The United Hawaii am actually doing for a friend. He's a local operator and one of his sons has shown some interest in it. Okay. So I said I would take it on. Actually, that one, I started working on that one first and that kind of got the bug going again. I said, you know, I really don't want to arm wrestle his son over this thing. So I had to do a little trolling around and within a week or two, I had spotted this London and the theme appealed to me and it ended up being, even though it was a bit of a drive, it ended up being very reasonably priced and physically, cosmetically, it is in marvelous shape. There's a little wear on a couple places on the play field, but the back glass is beautiful. And the cabinet's overall pretty decent. So I'm like, yeah, I'm good with this. This one will likely stay around for quite a while, especially after all the beating my head against the wall it's put me through so far. It's going to take a few thousand games on it to even the score. But it is an interesting insight also that even in the bingos, you started to see some crossover into the early realm of the electronic because the London has a triple play feature in it, which is actually implemented in some electronics. I wouldn't say necessarily solid state as there's no integrated circuits in it, but there is a PC board with a nice collection of transistors and the other associated hardware that actually manages that particular feature of the game. So even at that point, we could start to see, you know, even though, you know, the other 95% of this machine is pure EM, but we could start to see where they were starting to develop the more advanced features and starting to see where there were advantages to moving into the realm of the electronic because, yes, this is probably a feature they could have implemented purely EM, but it would have been probably another major collection of steppers and relays and probably another couple of cams on the control unit. So, you know, sadly, it was an inevitable progression. Right. And, you know, that's okay. You know, that doesn't bother me. Again, it's a feature. It's not the core of the machine. It is one of the sub-games, effectively, or sub-features. And it's kind of interesting, you know, seeing how it interacts because, again, being part of the machine, you know, as was painfully, you know, became the painful reminder in dealing with the comeback key and how much all the parts of an EM are interrelated to each other, that you now add this electronic element to it that still has to interact with all of the electromechanical aspects of the machine and still do that seamlessly. in order to provide the enhanced gameplay of the feature. So, yeah, it's another case where, yeah, there were some amazingly skilled designers at Bali and likely the other manufacturers of the time that could start to see this progression and see where the advantages could be gained. for, you know, because at that point, you know, it was a fairly competitive market. A lot of what drove the enhancements and the new games and features in the bingos was the competition, something to, something you could tout over your competitor and something to keep the players coming back. So, yeah, anything they could leverage to be able to add new and unusual features. And, you know, to be quite honest, probably reduce their design time to at least an extent would have been an extremely logical progression. So, yeah, and you can tell when you look at the machine and look at the machine and the schematics and how it's integrated, that it followed the same sort of design ethic that they'd used on the bingos up to that point. Because if you look at them, and I think you've commented on it, that even the later machines are very, very similar to the earlier ones. They're not redesigns. They are adding on to earlier constructions where your control unit is essentially the same, your mixture unit is essentially the same, your timer unit, and then they added additional mechanisms to it to add the newer game features and newer functionalities. And the triple play feature followed very closely in that whole design mentality, that it was another extension of what had come before, just in a slightly different method of implementation. So, you know, it's interesting to look at. And if you appreciate that sort of design, you know, the design of the thought and the thought and philosophy that go into these designs, like I said, I've always been, you know, fascinated by mechanisms. Like we said, talking about bowlers and stuff, I've been a bowler forever. I work, depending on during league season, I work a night or two at the local bowling center in the back. I hide in the back with the machines because I think you would think a A bowling pin setter is a fairly straightforward proposition. You know, set pins on the lane, pick them up, clear off fallen pins, put them back, and then, you know, dump them all off, set up a new set. But they are fascinating machines to look at and work with and just watch. The machines we have are Brunswick. and they are really, the Brunswick machines, the A and the A2 series would be, if I had to categorize them in relation to pinball machines, the Brunswick A and A2 series are the EMs of the bowling world, basically, because there is almost no electronics. Well, there is no electronics in these machines. The closest thing you get is the big motor starter relay that kicks the thing on. You've got one motor that runs the entire machine, and everything else is controlled with gears, cams, levers, and shafts. Wow. There's no electronics in the first three series Brunswick machines. None. Clutch-driven, like a control unit? Yes. Interesting. Yeah, it's a friction clutch that's released, you know, engaged and disengaged mechanically. And all the other functions of the machine, the movement of the deck, the sweep, whether or not it tries to set pins, pick them up, are all controlled by a series of cams and levers. Even the mechanism that detects the difference between a strike and whether or not there are still pins standing. is a mechanism that can detect how far down the deck has lowered when it goes into its cycle. It basically determines whether or not it has hit an obstruction, which would be a standing pin. Interesting. Okay. And that is, it is a completely mechanical device that does that. And even beyond that, it also has to allow for a third condition, because you've got no pins, which would be a strike. Right. You have standing pins, which would be one or more pins left. And then you also have to consider what is referred to as an out-of-range, which is a pin that is still standing but has moved outside of the machine's capability to pick up. Yeah. So the machine has to also allow for this third condition and stop in order to prevent damage to itself. Huh. And it is that same single mechanism that Brunswick refers to as a detector that can recognize these states. And from that, it commands, it tells the machine what the appropriate cycle is to execute. And again, it is purely mechanical, and it is fascinating to watch. Sure sounds that way. and it's like a pinball machine kind of in macro because everything is much larger these units yes your average Brunswick machine all together is probably close to a ton and stands about 7.5 feet tall in the back so it's a you have to respect to the machine because you hear these horror stories occasionally about people getting mechanics and being injured in bowling centers. Even though, as I said, it's mechanical, it's driven by a single, basically two-and-a-half horsepower electric motor, but you have to keep in mind this machine was designed, and these machines were designed in the 50s, that they have to deal with 80 pounds of bowling pins and balls of up to 16 pounds being hurled at them with a respectable amount of force. Right. So these machines are built very heavy. And one of the aspects that I find really interesting is that they are a fascinating study in weight and counterbalance. because, as I said, it can be dealing with up to 80 pounds of pins at a time. You've got the 10 on the deck. If somebody throws a gutter ball, you've got to pick all 10 of them up. Well, it has 10 more sitting on the deck prepared for the next frame. So you've all of a sudden thrown 80 additional pounds into that machine's mechanism, and sitting there watching it or listening to the motor, it basically doesn't see the difference. and part of that is, again, in the design, something that is kind of hidden in a large telescoping tube that they refer to as the bazooka is this, like, four-and-a-half-foot-long, about four-inch-diameter compression spring, which operates as the counterbalance for the machine as it goes through its cycle. as various mechanisms shift around, it compresses this spring to help take some of the load off of the motor and compensate for the additional weight of additional pins in the deck and things like that. So if you were to sit there and listen to it as it's going through its cycle, you very rarely hear any change in the motor's sound as far as it's not loading down, It's not slowing. And all that is, again, because of this consideration in the design of, you know, all these huge swinging parts moving back and forth that are transferring the load and the weight from one part of the machine to the other as it operates. So, yeah, it's a fascinating study in design. Yeah, that's truly incredible. And just implementation. They're cool. I mean, the newer machines and some of the AMF machines, which are more electronic in nature, they always kind of have been. They've kind of been, the AMF machines have kind of been the electronic side of it in the early machines. They kind of moved through the basic electronics to solid state. And now, you know, now everything's computerized. I don't think they're nearly as interesting to watch operate as the older machines. and you know it would be an interesting thing to look look at in another 40 or 50 years I don't know if I'll make it but you know there are well as I said the machines we've got in our center here were built in the you know mid to late 50s and you know with a little care and maintenance they're running really pretty much as well today as they did probably fresh out of the factory. I would find it really interesting to see if the newer machines that they're building now hold up as well over time. It's similar to the EMs and stuff. Exactly. I've got this Hawaii from the mid-50s. I've got this London from the late 60s. They're still around. They're still running. So, you know. So you look at a system like Gottlieb System One, their first solid state effort, and there are already chips which are completely obsolete and completely unattainable. So in another 40, 50 years, how many of these solid state machines are going to be unmaintainable without some kind of community effort to reengineer those boards? That kind of stuff is interesting to me. and part of the attraction to EMs, I'll be honest, because with good maintenance, they will, as you say. I mean, they'll just keep running. Yeah. It's interesting you bring up the Gottlieb System 1 because I just restored a Gottlieb Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which is a System 1. Yep. And it had when it came to me I actually picked it up as part of a deal with some other machines Yeah here we go We totally blowing the Dungeon Master whole reputation now that yes I do work on electronics Shock and horror amongst the masses, but so be it. You know, I picked this thing up as part of a deal and worked on it with the intent of probably keeping it around for a while because I kind of liked the theme, and it was having CPU problems, and the infamous Rockwell unobtainium chipset in the thing caused me a good deal of head scratching until I came up with a deal on a couple of Neewump replacement CPUs that I swapped into it. And that, aside from adding actually functioning diagnostics, which was rather pleasant, you know, made the improved machine's temperament a great deal. That machine has since moved on because somebody contacted me and said, hey, I would really love to have a pinball machine. Do you have anything available or do you know where there is? and I had just like probably a week before had picked up the Bali London and was now kind of struggling with okay what am I going to have to move or remove or relocate in order to have a place to land this critter and I'm like well now I think I can help you so the closed encounters has moved on to a new home So those System 1 games are interesting because, of course, that was the transition era for Gottlieb. And most of the System 1 titles were also made in an EM version, which are both more rare and also have differences in the gameplay. So Close Encounters was the next to last game with a roto target, I believe, that they made. The last game is Gottlieb's Circus from 1980, and that's over my shoulder over here. I've always enjoyed rotor targets. What's your favorite toy from the EM era? Rotor targets are pretty high on the list. I'd say it would be a little bit of a toss-up between the rotor target and the very target, although I think actually I would give it to the very target slightly because I like the challenge in it the rotor target was basically it's another target it just rotates periodically to give you different scores or access to different specials but the very target required it was more of a skill shot because it was almost inevitably in an enclosed lane and there was a fairly narrow window or a fairly narrow angle that you could hit it and actually get any substantial play in it. Movement. Yeah, movement. So, yeah, I think the very target would probably get that one by a bit. Okay. And are you a two-inch flipper or a three-inch flipper kind of guy? Boy, as much as I hate to admit it, I think I've become addicted to the three-inch flipper just because it's the predominant model these days. I enjoy the older machines with the smaller flippers. It does bring a different approach to play because the shorter bat decreases the angle you can play on various shots, and it's also obviously going to influence the table design somewhat for the same reason. unless you're getting into some of the machines that have outlanes just to the outside of the flippers, you can still do your catches and your little tap passes and the like on a 2-inch, although it's a bit more challenging because you don't have as much room to miss and still get away with it. I'll tell you, on the two-inch flipper machines in particular, I was always fond of the ones with the zipper flippers. As far as like a ball save function as opposed to like the pop posts. Pop posts, yeah. You know, because that almost felt a little bit like a cheat. Because, you know, as long as the post is up, you've got to really not be paying attention to lose a ball past the post but with a zipper flipper it doesn't take much inattention to lose that either by popping a target that kicks the flippers back open at just the wrong time or trying to do some cute little catch and rolling it off the end and down the lowered flipper and straight down the drain. And then you're like, great, how did I do that? Or why did I do that? Might be more appropriate. So kind of going hand in hand with the previous two questions, what's your favorite era of flipper game to work on and favorite manufacturer? Boy, there's a good one. You know, it's almost hard to pick a particular era because I've worked on pretty much everything over the years. And there's been, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly in just about every era and every, you know, every approach from EM to solid state to, you know, the modern DMD. I think some of my favorites are the early through probably mid-70s Bollies. I have a wizard actually sitting in my office slash studio, which for those who are attuned to such things and the particular pattern of chimes and relays, is the machine that provides most of the background effects in the EM Dungeon segments. Because I think there was a lot of experimentation in that era for looking for things beyond what was the norm in pinball at the time. Everybody had the pop bumpers and your slings and things like the rotor target, the very target, your saucers. But things in that era, you ended up with – it actually came from – Wizard didn't do it. It wasn't unique to Wizard originally. It was done for the Bali flip-flop, the four flags, feature flags. on Flip Flop originally and then on Wizard where they started going with new ideas like that and you started seeing more things like the captive balls with some more variations instead of just a straight lane. You started seeing the inverted U-lanes. A little later in the year you started seeing things like the I don't remember if it was off the top of my head if it was the 70s or if it came later, where they started adding the Newton balls to the captive ball lanes and things like that. So they started looking for more and more things to be unique and something that hadn't been seen before. and things like the flags and the wizard or flip-flop or the inverted U captive balls on some of the other machines, aside from being another play element, they were also a visual element that was, again, unique. Like the flags have on... When you trip them, they've got a legend on it which shows you what the associated feature is. But even when they flip back, there is a pattern on it that plays to the theme of the machine. So it was another dynamic visual element added to the machine, similar to as they started getting more creative with the patterns on spinners, where you whack a spinner really good and you get a blended image from the two sides. Again, one of those dynamic visual elements that would kind of draw you a little further into the game. And I think a lot of that, you know, really started to come to the fore in that era where they started looking at, you know, adding more dynamic elements on the play field. You know, because the back glass art continued to be, you know, some lovely examples. You know, Wizard is a good one. Scuba, you know, I always like that because, you know, the deep sea diving sort of motif. and wasn't quite as violent as, say, Fathom. The first machine was actually showing somebody coming to harm. I was like, that's an interesting twist. But where they started to embrace the idea that you could add some more dynamicism on the play field to both expose new features and also add some eye candy. which is not a bad thing. Granted, on some modern machines, one could make the case that there might be a little too much eye candy on some of them. But that's a matter of personal taste, and I will leave that to the taste of the listener. I almost said viewer, but keeping in mind we're playing radio here effectively. That's right. So, yeah, that's an interesting perspective because in the 70s, I feel like when four-player games were the standard, there were a lot more samey designs in the beginning. but later on you're right as they started to inch toward the solid state era they had to come up with new tricks and visual effects to pull people in because the same countdown bonus on every single game is no longer going to be the draw that it once was interesting yeah absolutely and part of it is again since you know we we were still talking the em era you know flip-flop uh wizard and the like you know these elements uh you know unique as they were were still relatively easy to implement in a in a mechanical form uh so that was kind of you know best of both worlds it gave you something new something that would be you know a new feature a new play feature and also a new visual but not requiring a huge lot of supporting elements under the play field or in the backbox. So I think that got to the point where they started exploring new directions to go, and then as it moved into the solid state era and eventually into the DMD era, then they started to really find out how far they could stretch things like that. You know, where you get into later machines like Twilight Zone or The Addams Family or things like that, where they start doing more things with optical ball detection or in like Twilight Zone, the power ball, the ceramic ball in it that the game is able to detect through strategically placed coils in the play field to be able to tell what ball has just passed it. Those are things that would have been impossible to implement in a purely mechanical form without doing something that would have adversely impacted gameplay. I mean, if you look back to coin-op pool tables, they were able to return a cue ball on a scratch because either the cue ball was magnetic or slightly smaller than the rest of the balls. So there were obviously mechanical methods for detecting things like that. but what it would have taken to implement the sort of scoring features and the like that you see, for instance, in Twilight Zone with the Powerball, would have been borderline insane in the EM realm. And then some of the other features were magnets in the play field, where Twilight Zone you have the magna flippers on the mini play field on the left side of the machine. Right. Or you've got the two or three magnets, depending on how close you want to adhere to the original machine design, in the right-hand spiral shot where they're used to delay the ball or change the ball's direction. I don't recall the machine that did it first, but I remember when the first machine was introduced that had a magnet on the play field. At least in our area, and I was still in Oregon at the time, among the serious pinball players, that just about started a holy war. the idea of putting a magnet in a pinball machine was you know was right up there with being sacrilegious uh and you know people you know actively avoided the machines that were starting to do things like that and now it's you know kind of become a feature that's almost been taken for granted right in in a lot of machines and has been you know has been used very good effect in things like Twilight Zone, Adam's Family, things like that. And some of the newer machines are doing it as well. It's one of those things that sometimes new features are not always well received. But if they're done well and with good intentions, then they will gain a following. And again, in the case of some things like, you know, I keep dropping back to Twilight Zone, you know, two magnets in the right-hand spiral or three if you take it back to its original design. it's an interesting change of view from the people originally who were just so horrified by the idea of magnets on a playfield to the people now who really want to know what the experience was in the absolute original design of the machine that will go through the effort to put that back to the point of drilling the playfield that feature that had been cost reduced out you know and I am not immune to such things I have a Doctor Who machine that I am extremely fond of and the early Doctor Who machines had a well they always pretty much had a Dalek topper on them but the early machines the early prototypes and the first I'm trying to remember if it was like the first ten or dozen machines or it might have been the first run actually had a a motorized moving Dalek head on the topper. And that was very quickly cost reduced out of the machine because it was a fairly it was a fairly well, I won't say necessarily complicated, but an obviously fairly expensive mechanism which they the powers that be of the time decided that didn't add enough to the machine to justify the cost. Well, when I got mine, you know, that caught my eye immediately. And I was fortunate at the time that somebody was reproducing the mechanisms for that based on the original design. And I was I had actually missed the first production round of it. But I said, yeah, put me on the list. If you guys do it again, I am all over this. And fortunately for me, they did. so my machine has happily been restored to its original wobbly head Dalek design Screaming exterminate at you. Yes, which I'm extremely proud of Some people say that the screaming Dalek is the most grating thing they've ever heard in a pinball machine but I couldn't hardly see the machine without it. Yeah, it wouldn't be the same at all Well as far as magnets in the play field have you ever worked on a pitching bat? Yes. So the way that they do pitch control is via a magnet. Of course, that works differently than in, say, Twilight Zone, where you have an eddy sensor that figures out the position of the ball. It just magnetizes or not based on the particular state of the pitch motor or various other relays in the game. But that was fascinating to me the first time I cracked one of those open because the game would give you two or three different pitches, and it was based on the energizing of this magnet. And it's one of those things, because of the way it was implemented, it is unlikely anybody who did not have occasion to work on the machine would have ever realized it was there. Even known. That was just part of the magic of the game, is that the thing can throw a curveball. I have no idea how it does it, but yeah it'll throw a nasty one now and again I've worked on a number of those over the years of various vintages and I find those great fun also you know it's another one of those that I've had some over the years I've let them go occasionally find myself regretting that although to be honest my current kind of leaning if I were really to go on a serious quest for something would be one of the EM rifle shooter games because I always love those, the whole shooting gallery target sort of thing. So one of those is on my target of opportunity list for somewhere along the way. Any particular feature or manufacturer that you're looking for? No, not particularly. I tend to be, to be perfectly honest, I tend to be a bit more theme-driven than necessarily a manufacturer. You know, because I'll work on anything. You know, I mean, it basically comes down to. And, yeah, to me, themes are the thing to get my attention right off. And then, you know, everything beyond that is just, you know, if it's something I haven't worked on before, then it's just part of the adventure. I could not swear that I had ever touched a Gottlieb System 1 before I grabbed this Close Encounters. But the theme attracted me. And, you know, like I said, I'll take on anything. It doesn't mean that a machine doesn't beat the living daylights out of me on occasion. You know, this London is doing a real good job of it. It's probably about 65-70% functional. It's actually playing correctly. It will go through. It will start up. Its main issue right now is scoring. It just doesn't. But it's a good deal further along than when I started. So as long as I get a little progress every now and again, And like last night, I was fiddling with it and found yet another snapped-off resistor, which sent me back to the schematics for about 20 minutes trying to figure out, okay, exactly where does this thing need to reconnect? Is it the grimy wire or the other grimy wire? Yes. Or you look at the color codes and it said this should be gray with a red tracer. I'm like, okay, every wire within about six inches of this position looks some shade of gray. this is like a bad movie all of a sudden I've got 50 shades of grey in the back of my bingo machine so at that point I'm looking less at the wire colors and more at the switch designations, where am I on the schematic and let's narrow it down and see which of these should have a resistor going to it because eventually there are a finite number of resistors in this machine, I'll hit it eventually and that's one area that sometimes it helps to look at the manual in concert with the schematic especially when you have a machine where the wire colors are just completely gone so yeah bingos are always an adventure but they're quite fun when they get up and running Charlie says this has convinced him that I am totally psychotic uh you know which is also probably part of the reason we get along so well he says anybody who anybody who goes off and starts a pinball company has got to be a little bit crazy So yeah we a perfect match But yeah he says he got a couple of VMs in his collection He's got a ball bowler, which I envy him for. I love my shuffle bowler, but, you know, the ball bowlers are cool. Granted, I wouldn't have any place to put one. I mean, my skippy is close to 10 feet long, about like my skee-ball lane. And so trying to find a place for it is interesting enough. His 16-foot ball bowler, you know, I'd have to put up a new building, which my wife keeps telling me I need to do anyway. You know, it's like, give me the rest of my house back. Go put yourself up a building or something. My God, man, dude, come on. But he says, you know, and we've had some talks. he says that having to go in and work on his EM scares the living daylights out of him so when I sent him a picture of the inside of the backbox of this bingo I could hear the screaming clear from Wisconsin he's like get this away from me even the picture is just scaring the living daylights out of me So that's that's pretty funny. So we had a great deal of fun with those discussions. And that's that's one thing about your segment that I really enjoy is demystifying the machines. So in your last episode, you talked about not letting the complexity scare you. And that's incredibly important. just because there's moving parts doesn't mean that it's unfixable or any more frightening than a transistor array. Yeah, and my comments about comparing schematics, because a lot of people have said they are just severely intimidated by trying to look at the schematic for an EM. And as I attempted to point out, And really an EM schematic is a good deal easier in a lot of cases to make sense out of than a schematic for a solid state or a DMD. You just have to consider the different design philosophy. You know, in an EM schematic, you are looking at the machine as a whole. Every separate coil or stepper is a control unit of some sort, and it's going to be called out individually on the schematic because that's really the way you have to approach it. Where a solid-state machine, both in design and in their schematics, their functionality is much more compartmentalized. So it appears to be easier to deal with because a lot of the complexity is masked. Right. But by the same token, you look at the discussions on Pinside or, you know, any of the other forums that people get in these, you know, just severe quandaries over a, you know, an electronic or, you know, DMD machine that's misbehaving for what seems like a fairly simple problem. but it would be my contention that they are so in awe of the thing and the complexities that, to go back to an old analogy, they're not able to see the forest for the trees. That's right. Something simple like this flipper won't fire or this bumper or something appears weak. that is a fairly you know honestly a fairly straightforward problem and even in a solid state or DMD machine there's a very small number of things that are going to affect that you know it's going to be you could have a bad coil you could have a bad suppressor diode on the coil you could have you know a lot of times that's going to be mechanical did the thing overheat has your core deformed? Is it just dirty? A lot of basics that have been true since Humpty Dumpty, since they put the first flipper in a machine. But beyond that, then you've got your driver board, which is going to directly impact how well or how hard that flipper is going to hit, because that's where it's getting its power from. And upstream from that, it's got to be getting a command from the main board, from the central processor, to fire or not. So you're really only looking at a handful of things that will cause this problem. Right. But, you know, people are, you're constantly seeing this in discussions that they are just completely baffled by things like this. And, you know, as I said, you know, don't, you know, you can be impressed by these machines, be it EM, solid state, DMD, whatever. And, you know, impressed by the design and the technology, but don't be in awe of it because as soon as you convince yourself that it's beyond your capabilities to understand or fix, then you've pretty much defeated yourself right out of the box. Yeah. I would agree with that. so you know that that's been part of my you know philosophy kind of in the in the the dungeon kind of approach to begin with is not to go massively technical on it uh because in a lot of cases i don't think it's necessary but providing some guidance or a little bit of insight on how to get through a schematic or how to approach a problem. Because, again, in the EMs, for all their implied complexity, when you look at them, they are fairly simple, fairly straightforward machines. You've got a collection of switches that are routing power to a finite number of places. Right. And, you know, in that respect, I think troubleshooting EMs can be, you know, simpler in a lot of cases than dealing with, you know, a more modern machine. Because if you've got a coil in an EM that's not firing, you go to your schematic and, you know, you go to the index off on the side of your schematic and it will tell you where to find that coil on the schematic. you can go to that coil and you can trace up the schematic to everything that interacts with that coil, and you've got your set of stuff. These things are all that is going to affect whether or not that coil is going to fire or not. Yep. So you have your defined set of elements that you just walk through, and by the time you hit the end, you're either going to have resolved your problem or you're going to realize that, okay, the reason that it's still not firing is because, okay, you've traced and cleaned and adjusted, like, the five switches that, you know, have to, you know, interact and somehow to fire this coil. It's still not firing. Okay, well, then the thing that needs to trip that switch is your next element. And again, you have a finite thing that is defined, you know, basically, absolutely, it's going to be this collection of things where you're not dealing with the sort of issues you run into in an electronic machine of, you know, intermittent problems or you've got a multiplexer that's being a little schizophrenic or a CPU that misbehaves when it gets hot and starts being a little strange. I've got a Data East Star Wars that I'm working on for a friend, that route operator of mine I had just finished some work on it replacing a bunch of targets and some work on the driver board some features that just weren't operating and we thought, okay, it's good, it's ready to go put it out, and it comes back about a week later, he said they said it's not running what's the deal? And he said, well, he didn't know. They said it wasn't working right. I went, okay, fine. So I set it back up, played probably a half dozen games on it, and for the life of me could not find a thing wrong. So I just basically just walked away from the machine and just left it on. And it took about two days finally because I actually work in a data center, so it's a little on the cool side. it actually took about two days, but it turned out that something on the main board in the unit has gone heat sensitive. Once it warms up enough, it just locks up. No. Nope. And, you know, that is the sort of thing that, you know, from the one side, getting feedback from, you know, like a location operator, you can't expect them to necessarily understand that. All they know is the game isn't working. Right. and my operator friend who is fairly adept at repairing these things he took it into the shop he played a few games on it it looked fine so I'm baffled so he brought it to me and like I said at first glance I'm like I don't get it but there's got to be something going on so it's just like I said in this case it took two days for the problem to show up to manifest so So, you know, whereas, you know, it's going to be pretty rare you find an EM that is that temperamental that you have to, you know, leave on sitting in the corner for two days to get it to malfunction. Yeah, it's the only intermittent problems that you run into are issues with arcing. And once you resolve that, it's almost 100 percent of the time it's just dirt. And once everything is clean, then you're pretty good to go. So the biggest battle is just not letting them sit forever. So you get the switches with their self-cleaning action going. But yeah, it's interesting. The modern machines have their own collection of really odd problems, as you say. Yes. left um well uh do you have uh any any thoughts for someone looking to get into bingo or em collecting um yeah i would say uh you know pick some pick something you like don't necessarily grab you know i wouldn't necessarily say grab the first thing that crosses your path because regardless, bingo EM, you're going to have to work on it. So start with a game that appeals to you either in a theme or features or whatever because that gives you something to look forward to when you've had your head in it for four hours straight trying to figure out why something isn't working. You at least have something that you enjoy to look forward to when you go back. you know I'd say that would probably be the primary thing you know we've talked about I mean you've talked about a lot of things to look at I've talked about various things as far as things to you know things to look for things to look out for you know because there are admittedly and I am my own worst enemy in this regard I will take on machines that probably should honestly just be parted out because they are that far gone well that's the same for me but you know but you know that's my thing and I think I've said in some of the dungeon segments I said you know when you're looking for something like this don't underestimate your skill said, but don't overestimate it either. Don't take on something that is that big a basket case, especially if it's going to be your first machine. Some people I've heard say, if you're going to go into an EM and it's your first machine, don't get a multiplayer because the complexity will make you nuts. Well, I would probably argue that sentiment because I don't find the multiplayer is that much more difficult No. More clean. Yeah, than a single. Yeah. But, yeah, you know, use a little common sense. You know, yeah, especially if you're first one, don't, you know, don't get in over your head right at the start. Don't grab a London first thing. Probably not. Unless you're really masochistic, and that's fine. Yeah, but, well, I guess, you know, my own little example is a year or two ago, there was a couple of local radio stations that run these little trading post shows in the mornings, and I listened to those pretty much religiously. Sometimes my wife might say I should stop listening to those because I keep buying things. but there was one case where somebody had said there was a jukebox he'd got, it was a project and he's just never gotten to it he was pretty sure the amplifier was missing but he was just tired of looking at it and he put out a price and I went hmm and I called him I said okay I want to make sure I heard this correctly you said X for the price he said yes and I said, I'll take it. He said, don't you want to see it? And my response was, is it standing up by itself? And he said, yes. And I said, sold. So I'm guessing that was a good price then. Yes, yes it was. It was a very good price. And he was just completely baffled that somebody would just, you know, out of the blue without having seen it, you know, just say, no, I'm good. I take it. I don't care. Like I said, if it is standing up by itself, we're good. And, you know, I have done that on, you know, jukeboxes, pinball machines, a little bit of anything else. I might not recommend that particular path for somebody who is just starting in the hobby. That might be, you know, getting a little over your head. Yes. But, you know, as I've said, I do not hold myself up as the ultimate example of anything except possibly how to occasionally make bad life choices. But, you know, curiously enough, and as improbable as it is frequently, it has worked for me. So, you know, there you have it. Well, that's good. And, well, I wanted to thank you for a couple things and leave you with a couple tidbits here on your London project. first of all, thank you for talking about the solid state. You know, Double Up in Hawaii, the ballet versions, were the last, I believe, purely EM bingos. And after that, London was not far behind. They started adding those circuit boards. And it was always my contention that they just ran out of space because even the cabinet is full of units on Double Up. and I noticed that London has very similar scoring potential. Yes, I would not disagree. It is a very well-packed cabinet, both upper and lower. I always appreciate that when I have to move it. But I also wanted to thank you for your excellent segment on Spooky Pinball, and if any of my listeners haven't checked it out, which I doubt, I'm sure they're well-versed. but if not, I would really highly recommend that they go check it. Well, thank you. You mentioned that you have a segment coming up here soon, and it always comes out on the first of the month. Is that correct? Pretty much. I know Charlie tries very hard to get it out on the first once in a while. It will slip by a day or so due to various external forces. forces. I'd say his track record is over... I think he's just cleared... I know we've gone past episode 60 on the main show, so in five years, his record on getting out on time is pretty close to exemplary. Pretty darn good, yeah. Well, as far as your London project, I wanted to let you know that those scoring issues will drive you nuts. If you haven't tackled them before, especially on a Mystic Line or screen game, it can get a little crazy. But there's really one switch that you really need to focus on if you're getting the chatter when you push the R button. so the chatter is the search disk spinning and detecting how many in a line or in a colored section in London's case you have so if all the numbers are lighting up on the back glass and you hear the chatter the next thing to look for is the search index relay and there's a single switch that requires the finest adjustment of any switch I've ever seen And if that doesn't catch, then the scoring won't happen. And it has to do it in a fraction of a second. So the adjustment, as I say, is very fine. It's also possible that that search coil is burned out. On the Magic Screen games, there was actually a design flaw that in certain timing states, the machine could catch on fire because the search index coil would lock on. and the search index coil is right next to the transformer in that game. So you have the potential for a big problem. But in London, I believe the design flaw was fixed. They changed some things dealing with extra balls and so forth that I've blown past in some of my podcasts. But really, focus on that one switch. It's right under the search disk and to the left. and I imagine that I'll take care of it for you. Well, I hope. I was actually staring and honestly swearing at that relay last night. To be honest, I have not checked the coil yet because I was sitting there going, you know, I had kind of come to that point, I think, from some of your comments. And, you know, like I said, I don't purport to be an expert in everything. I went out and bought one of the video bingo machine maintenance courses, which I found quite helpful and a nice reference. I've dumped them all onto my iPad, so I have it sitting on the glass, sitting there running sections. So I'm either running that or frequently running various segments of your podcast where I'm sitting there trying to remember things to look at, you know, sitting there. So, you know, a place where technology is very useful. Yes. But yeah, I was I had kind of come around to that last night and we were having some fairly animated discussions. You know, so but then it was it was I was looking at that and I don't recall what it was, but kind of out of the corner of my eye, I spotted this dangling resistor on the far side of the control unit. and that kind of became my distraction for the next half hour or so going, well, okay, there's a circuit that's not operating properly. Let's go deal with that since that's something I should be able to define here fairly rapidly and see if that improves its sense of humor. Unfortunately, it didn't address any of the scoring issues, although it did change the behavior when I flipped the quarter coin switch a little bit. So that was interesting. But, yeah, probably in the next night or so, although tomorrow night's bowling night, so no bingo tomorrow night. Yeah, probably in the next night or two I'll come back around to that. Well, that comment about the resistor reminds me, there should be a resistor on the search index as well, and it's a sand resistor, and frequently due to vibration or heat, they can come desoldered or break apart. So that's something to check too. Yeah, I seem to recall seeing a large one right close to it. So, yes, I will definitely have to take a look at that also. But focus in that area, I would say, and probably you'll come a little closer. What will drive you nuts after that is getting consistent scoring in each of the sections. Oh, no doubt. One thing at a time. Yeah, and that's just one of those things is accept your small bits of progress gracefully because it is indeed a step towards pinball nirvana. Wider understanding. Yes. Yes. Peace and harmony. But, well, Jim, thank you very much for your time. I very much appreciate it. Well, thanks for having me. absolutely and anytime you know if you feel like coming on and venting about bingos you have a forum aside from your own if there's just that much bingo venting to go around let me know you better watch out I'll drag you into the dungeon one of these days I wouldn't mind I wouldn't mind well thanks again and I will talk to you soon hopefully hopefully with good news progress on London Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you very much. Okay.