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Episode 181: Justin Roberts, musician

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·25m 27s·analyzed·Mar 3, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Grammy-nominated children's musician Justin Roberts discusses his rediscovery of pinball and philosophy of meaningful kids' music.

Summary

Jeff Teolis interviews Justin Roberts, a three-time Grammy-nominated children's musician who rediscovered pinball in recent years after growing up with the game. Roberts discusses his career writing music for kids, his philosophy on addressing serious topics through children's media, and his renewed passion for pinball—particularly his appreciation for games like Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and Whitewater. The conversation touches on his meeting with pro player Andre Massinkoff in San Francisco, his vinyl collection philosophy, and his deliberation over purchasing his first home pinball machine.

Key Claims

  • Justin Roberts has released 12 or 13 records for children and written picture books for Putnam

    high confidence · Roberts directly states this achievement in his career overview

  • Roberts' latest album 'Lemonade' is Grammy-nominated

    high confidence · Teolis congratulates Roberts on the nomination; Roberts confirms it

  • Roberts rediscovered pinball a couple of years ago after falling out with the game

    high confidence · Roberts states: 'I definitely had fallen out with it until the last couple of years when I rediscovered it'

  • Roberts met world-class pinball player Andre Massinkoff in San Francisco in 2017 at a house concert

    high confidence · Roberts describes the encounter: 'I was playing a house concert in San Francisco... the owner of the house, his name is Jeremy, introduced me to Andre'

  • Roberts attended Kenyon College in Ohio, where he later discovered Andre Massinkoff had also gone

    high confidence · Roberts states: 'Andre and Jeremy and I all went to the same college, Kenyon College in Ohio'

  • Iron Maiden is Roberts' favorite music-themed pinball machine despite not being a personal fan of the band

    high confidence · Roberts: 'the one I most is a band that I don't personally care for that much, but Iron Maiden is amazing to play'

  • Teolis owns nine pinball machines and is at maximum capacity for his basement space

    high confidence · Teolis states: 'Right now, nine. And I'm tapped out at nine just for spacing'

  • Teolis is a drummer who was inspired by Led Zeppelin's John Bonham

    high confidence · Teolis: 'You ever heard of Led Zeppelin? Because I love them. Yeah. Because I love them. That's what got me into drumming'

Notable Quotes

  • “Kids have an emotional depth that we sometimes don't allow them to express. And, you know, I think they're just little human beings like us and they feel the same things and they go through the same experiences.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~14:30 — Core philosophy on Roberts' approach to children's music and addressing serious topics

  • “When you were born, we had the same experience. We were totally freaked out and nervous about what was going to happen.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~15:45 — Example of how Roberts draws parallels between children's and adult experiences in his songwriting

  • “I'm not necessarily a fan of Iron Maiden, but it doesn't matter because the game is so good and the theme fits the machine and you sort of get sucked in either way.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~38:00 — Reveals that game quality can transcend personal music preferences for Roberts

  • “Playing for kids, you soon realize you're going to lose them if you don't keep them involved. And so almost all of my songs that we regularly perform live have some kind of interactive quality.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~22:30 — Demonstrates Roberts' understanding of audience engagement with children

  • “There's something about [hitting ramps] where it's just energizing when you start doing it well and find the shots. Especially the combos. That's the best part.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~41:00 — Articulates the visceral appeal of pinball mechanics to newer players

  • “If I purchase an LP, I sit down and listen to it side by side, and my attention is more there. I don't know what it is, but for me, it brings a deeper experience.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~49:30 — Explains Roberts' philosophy on intentional music consumption versus streaming

  • “Drumming has helped me with pinball because of the hand eye coordination. The three biggest factors for me for pinball... are experience playing drums for years, baseball... and then my nerd background from when I went to university for math.”

    Jeff Teolis — Identifies transferable skills from drumming and math background to competitive pinball play

Entities

Justin RobertspersonJeff TeolispersonAndre MassinkoffpersonPinball ProfileorganizationLogan ArcadeorganizationCrystal GemnickpersonNot Ready for Nap Timeorganization

Signals

  • ?

    content_signal: Andre Massinkoff's gentle teaching approach and childlike wonder about pinball was pivotal in converting Roberts from casual player to enthusiast

    high · Roberts: 'watching somebody who still had sort of a childlike wonder about pinball... then just watching how gentle he was with explaining it to somebody who'd never seen it before... That was the beginning of it'

  • ?

    community_signal: Justin Roberts actively integrating pinball into touring schedule with Not Ready for Nap Time band members joining him to play at different locations across country

    high · Roberts: 'traveling as a traveling musician having something like Pinball Nap... I've managed to talk a couple of the Not Ready for Nap Time players into joining me to play pinball'

  • $

    market_signal: Crossover between children's music/education community and adult pinball enthusiast community, with both fields valuing interactive engagement and meaningful content

    medium · Parallel discussion of audience participation strategies in Roberts' music performances and engagement mechanisms in pinball game design; shared values around meaningful content

  • ?

    product_concern: Quality and layout of a pinball machine can overcome personal preference barriers (Roberts not fan of Iron Maiden but loves playing the machine)

    high · Roberts: 'I'm not necessarily a fan of Iron Maiden, but it doesn't matter because the game is so good and the theme fits the machine'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.076

0:00
It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teolis. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us, pinballprofile, at gmail.com. And please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I'm going to get personal to the people that really don't know me very well. You might hear me weekly. You know that I like pinball and jokes and things like that, but let me tell you that nothing in the world is more important to me than children and their well-being. Making sure kids are healthy, safe, cared for, educated, and loved. That is my existence. A child absorbs so much and learns from their surroundings, so it's important for their future and generations later on that we all do everything we can to give children the best we can give. That said, and we come back to pinball now, our next guest is a pinball fanatic, but also a three-time Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter of children's music. He's Justin Roberts, and he joins us today on Pinball Profile. Hello, Justin. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Exciting for me. Thank you for reaching out on Twitter. When I learned a little bit more about you and what you do, I was fascinated because, as I just mentioned, it's something that's very, very important to me, and obviously something that's very important to you because you later in life, not that you're old by any ways, in fact, we're the same age, so we're very young, you decided to go this direction. How did that all come about? Well, I was post-college playing in a band in Minneapolis, and I took a day job as a preschool teacher, and this was years ago in the early 90s. And I started writing songs for kids, and I find listening to what kids say and just being with them can be the most hilarious and transforming experience. And so after working with kids for a while, I'd written a bunch of songs, and I made a record of kids' songs, not intending to be a children's musician. And I moved to Chicago to pursue graduate school, and the record that I made kind of took off. And next thing I knew, I was traveling around the country playing concerts for kids. And now I've made 12 or 13 records for kids and written a couple picture books for Putnam and been kind of my career ever since. Your latest album, Lemonade, another Grammy-nominated album, so congratulations on that. Thank you. And it's got to be very rewarding for you to do these things that are so important to you and I, and seeing that instant gratification, the smiles on the kids' faces, the kids singing the songs in the crowds. That's a great gift that you've got there, Justin. It's really amazing. Yeah, I think, I mean, one of the things that happened early on when I was in my 20s working at this preschool was I started playing songs that weren't normally kids' songs for the kids there, whether it was the Ramones or Sam Cooke song or just something I thought was not lyrically inappropriate. But then I started singing them other songs that I'd written, and I just noticed that you didn't have to keep it really simple, and you could actually have a lot of lyrics, and kids would listen and memorize things. And they responded to certain depths in songwriting that is usually not what people expect kids to be able to handle. And so that sort of set me on a path to writing music that I enjoyed, and I also found out that kids enjoyed it as well. But some of your lyrics, too, are very important in the sense that it's not all rainbows and puppies. It's talking about the environment that the kids see, and it could be something like bullying or divorce or some of these other things that are very, very difficult. And that is a tough subject to do, especially when speaking to children. but they can relate. Yeah, I know. Sometimes it surprises me even. I write a song and I think, well, a mother listening to this in the minivan is going to get weepy at the song or this is going to probably affect an adult listening to it. But then I meet a kid who's four years old and their favorite song is a song about getting lost in the mall. I talked to the parent. I said, oh, did your son get lost at one point? And the mother's like, no, he cares about people that get lost and he's worried about them and wants to help. And I'm just like, what? It's like amazing, like the things kids tap into. And I think that part of it has been the mysterious and wonderful part about making music for kids. Whether it's music or other forms of media that kids absorb, like we did when we were kids with Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street, those are the kind of shows and your music that really can touch on today's issues and not just, again, all things that are cute and cuddly. It's, you know, kids go through some serious issues and struggles that, again, it pains me that somebody so innocent, so young has to go through these things. But it's nice to know that there's a comforting voice in your music, Justin, that can certainly make them feel that they're not alone. Definitely. And, yeah, I think kids have an emotional depth that we sometimes don't allow them to express. And, you know, I think they're just little human beings like us and they feel the same things and they go through the same experiences. I mean, one of the things I try to do a lot in my songs is to draw parallels between what kids experience and what adults experience. And there's a song called Giant Size Butterflies. It's about a first day of school. And in the course of the song, the mother explains to the kid, you know, when you were born, we had the same experience. We were totally freaked out and nervous about what was going to happen and you know trying to draw those kinds of parallels so kids don't feel alone kids are amazing they learn so quickly they absorb so much it's hard for you and i i'll say for me anyway to really tackle new things something seems to have to go out to bring something new in but kids they just absorb it all and when it comes to pinball you've probably seen as you listen to pinball podcasts and watch the streams we have so many great kids playing pinball that you know even with the deep rules, they're absorbing it all. They're having fun. And at such a young age, you know, oh boy, these kids are only going to get better and better and better. Yeah, it's amazing. And having, you know, I grew up playing pinball. You know, we had a pinball machine in my house, but I definitely had fallen out with it until the last couple of years when I rediscovered it. But, you know, thinking about how kids' minds work and how quickly they can learn foreign languages and things like that I just like oh my gosh there no way I never be that great because the synapses are just not firing like they used to but it still a lot of fun When you got back into pinball it was definitely in Chicago which is a great place to fall in love with pinball, and one of your favorite places, the great Logan Arcade. Yeah, you know, I've gone to basically any place in Chicago that has pinball machines and played at various places, but I find Logan just has a selection of machines, and they keep them in really good shape, which is something you start to notice when you're playing a lot of machines on location. Sometimes the places just put them out there and neglect them, but at Logan, they set them up pretty hard, I think, but that also makes it fun. It's a great environment and very welcoming to people that don't even know what they're doing, I think. Meet people and learn strategies and things like that, which I found to be helpful. Crystal Gemnick and the staff there at Logan do a fantastic job, and that is a definite destination whenever you're in the Chicago area for sure. But you travel the country and do a lot of different shows, singing with the Not Ready for Nap Time players. Yes.
@ ~56:00

  • “I'm a little worried [about getting into pinball buying]. I think that's why I've been delaying the decision... Looking at my vinyl collection of music, I'm like, I better not get into pinball buying. It could be bad.”

    Justin Roberts @ ~44:00 — Shows Roberts' self-awareness about his collecting tendencies and hesitation to acquire his first machine

    • Attack from Mars
    game
    Monster Bashgame
    Iron Maidengame
    AC/DCgame
    Metallicagame
    Whitewatergame
    Trongame
    Kenyon Collegeorganization
    Bottom Loungeorganization
    Stern Pro Circuitevent
    Freeplay Floridaorganization
    Jason Bonhamperson
    John Bonhamperson
    7:23
    One of the places you came across was in San Francisco back in 2017, and you randomly met, oh, just one of the world's greatest players, Andre Massinkoff. Tell us about that time. Well, that was sort of a total surprise, but I was playing a house concert in San Francisco, and they were having a little get-together before my performance, and the owner of the house, his name is Jeremy, introduced me to Andre, and he said, this is one of the best pinball players in the world. And at the time I was thinking, I didn't even know there was a best pinball player in the world. I didn't know there was competitive pinball or anything like that. And he introduced me to Andre, and it turned out that Andre and Jeremy and I all went to the same college, Kenyon College in Ohio, but I didn't really know Andre there. And anyway, I was like, well, if I'm next to one of the best pinball players in the world, I want to see him play pinball. We're in San Francisco. Is there somewhere nearby we can go play a game? And Jeremy was like, actually, I have four games in my basement. And I was like, what? So we went down, and because after I performed my show, we went down in the basement and played some pinball. Because there were kids at the show, there were a couple stragglers. And so I got to watch Andre teach, I think it was probably like a five-year-old and an eight-year-old how to play pinball for the first time. and it was so amazing to watch how like how gentle he was with explaining it but also just the wonder that he felt about the game and watching him kind of try to explain that to a younger kid and you know encourage them as they were playing and talk about how random the game is and how hard it is and what you do strategy wise and that was super fun and then i was spending the night in that house and so jeremy was like well if you want to play pinball you can so i was just left alone with these games and I just started playing for a couple hours straight and just had a blast and I think that was the beginning of it. It doesn't take much really to fall down that rabbit hole now does it? No it doesn't and you know once that had happened then I sort of discovered this whole world of people that talk about strategy of pinball and things like that and that to me just hits something that fascinates me as anything that there's a game involved and learning the different games has been fun and then also I would say like traveling as a traveling musician having something like Pinball Nap, which is something I discovered. And we'll be in some city, and we'll have a couple extra hours. And I've managed to talk a couple of the Not Ready for Nap Time players into joining me to play pinball. So we'll just find a location, and that's been also a blast because you can find really great places across the country to play. Yeah, you're into it. You're into pinball, I can tell.
    9:56
    The best thing is addicting other people to it as well. But what a great introduction there, really, to get you back into pinball from your youth with a great ambassador and one of my favorites in pinball in Andrei Masenkov, another guy who certainly does a lot of help and a lot with children. I mean, that guy has a big, big heart, and I can only imagine how great he was that night. Yeah, I think that was the best memory of the whole evening was not just the playing pinball, but just watching somebody who still had sort of a childlike wonder about pinball, which that was part of it, and then just watching how gentle he was with explaining it to somebody who'd never seen it before. Yeah, it was fascinating to see how he went about doing that. It has to be nice for you with your music to be compared to such greats as Elvis Costello, Paul Simon, ELO. I mean, those are some pretty incredible Hall of Famers. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the fun things about making music for kids is that I feel like there are no rules on how to do it. And so over the course of my career, I've done some records that are very folky, and I've done things that are very melodic power pop, you know, and sort of explored different areas of music that I love and just made songs that are about a kid's experience, but kind of using that language to do it. And it's been fun to see people go on the ride with me because sometimes I make something and I think, are kids really going to like this or is this going too far? And then generally it works. Well, with the comparison of Elvis Costello, I'd like you to turn watching the detectives into a children's song. I'd like to see where that would go. I'd have to change some of the subject matter, I guess. Perhaps, yeah. I could definitely use that reggae beat that he has going on that.
    11:37
    Mix it up. You must like some of the music-themed pinball machines, and there are a lot out there. I do. I was thinking about this. Some of my favorite music in pinball, I think, tends to not be the music-themed pins. One of the machines that was in the basement when I first came back to it was Whitewater, and the music on that's pretty incredible just as of making music for a game. And I've also found Tron. I like the music in that. But in terms of the music themed pins, I think the one I most is a band that I don't personally care for that much, but Iron Maiden is amazing to play. And like that game, I find myself playing more than any recently. And it's funny because I'm not necessarily a fan of Iron Maiden, but it doesn't matter because the game is so good and the theme fits the machine and you sort of get sucked in either way. It's funny, that game is fantastic, no question about it. And you wonder how many people don't put it in their homes because of the theme, yet that game still sells incredibly well. Exactly Yeah no I think it such an exciting layout and there so much to do And the strategy of what I understand so far having played it yeah it super fun I just like the shots It very satisfying to play I think ACDC was the game for me that really took those music pins to a whole new level Yeah. And the great code from Lyman, the great layout from Steve Ritchie. I enjoy the music as well, too. And then Metallica. I mean, my goodness, that's just, again, wow, we just keep getting better and better to where we're at now with Iron Maiden. and it's... Yeah, ACDC is definitely a band that I can probably relate to more than Iron Maiden just from, you know, owning Back in Black as a kid on vinyl.
    13:17
    And the ramps on that are really fun to hit. That's one of the things you find when you start playing different machines is what you like about them. Early on it was just like a couple ramps to hit. It's a very satisfying thing that you can't really explain. It sounds silly but there's something about it where it's just energizing when you start doing it well and find the shots. Especially the combos. That's the best part. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely. Well, ACDC, one of those bands that, you know, certainly the audience participates whenever you hear Thunderstruck. The audience is going, ah, thunder. And, you know, you have that, too, with your music. And I don't know if that's something intentionally you write, but ACDC did. Queen, if you saw the movie Bohemian Rhapsody, they talked about, you know, let's get some audience participation with We Will Rock You to Stomp, Stomp, Clap. and you do that with a song like Willie was a whale. Yeah, exactly. I mean, sometimes I do it when I'm writing the song and other times I do it after the song is written and then try to figure out how to bring the audience in because the big difference, I played in a band for grown-ups prior to making kids' music and you didn't really have to worry too much about audience participation in the early 90s. It was a lot of shoegazing Nirvana fans. People would just come to shows and watch. But playing for kids, you soon realize you're going to lose them if you don't keep them involved. And so almost all of my songs that we regularly perform live have some kind of interactive quality, whether it's a rhythmic clap or call-and-response singing or some kind of choreographed dance that the audience does. It also just makes it more of a party for us and less of us performing to an audience and more just a communal experience, which is kind of what we're going for. Well, think of us as adults when we go to a concert for an artist or a band that we love and that experience and you remember it. And, oh, they played this song and, oh, the stage is like this. Well, as a parent, when I take my kids or when I took my kids, they're much older now, I remember that experience as well. And I'll give you an example. When I took one of my sons, and I'm not allowed to say his name because he's so embarrassed from the story, although I think it is the cutest story ever. So I won't say his name, but one of the boys, I took him to go see The Wiggles in concert, which is crack for kids. It's just like, it's insane how the kids lose their minds. It's not crack for kids. It's just a great party atmosphere.
    15:40
    So I've got my son who is two, not three. I know he's like two-ish. So he knew what The Wiggles were, knew all the songs. And he's sitting on my lap and the lights are going on. He's blah, blah, blah, blah. The lights go out. Toot, toot, chug, a chug, a big red car. The thing came out. He lost it. All of a sudden, I feel his pull-up diaper fill up immediately. Like, boor! Instant explosion. I'm like, oh, man. Like, he just, like, he lost it. It was the best. That's the ultimate expression of, like, a rock concert, I think. Exactly!
    16:15
    What could be more rock than that? If you had a bowel movement at a concert, you had a good time. Exactly. I'd be curious to hear what the head-to-head guys think of The Wiggles, if that's on their radar.
    16:29
    I've abused Marty and Ryan about The Wiggles a few times. In fact, when Ryan came to Toronto and he stayed at my place for a bit, we hopped in the car. First song on was, I think, something about Wags the Dog or something like that. Anyway, and then Olivia Newton-John and Excess and everything Australian I could think of. He was an Australian artist all the time. Kylie Minogue, we had a little Midnight Oil. Anyway, so I know you're looking to acquire a pinball machine now that you have a basement, which is very, very important. You realize you won't just get one. You think you will. Well, that's the problem. As somebody who has sort of an obsession, obsessive personality, I'm a little worried. I think that's why I've been delaying the decision. Also, deciding which one to get is something that I can't make a decision about. So looking at my vinyl collection of music, I'm like, I better not get into pinball buying. It could be bad. Big vinyl collection? I do, yeah. Big vinyl collection, big CD collection. I mean, I guess it's when we both grew up, but I still have that sort of feeling of wanting to own things and having especially good sound quality. I like the sound of vinyl. Yeah, it's fun to have music around in that manner. I listen to it differently than I do when I listen on Apple Music or Spotify. Not that there's anything wrong with the streaming way of listening, but for me, if I purchase an LP, I sit down and listen to it side by side, and my attention is more there. I don't know what it is, but for me, it brings a deeper experience than something that I just have on a playlist or something. Justin, I'm the same. I have Spotify to basically find those songs that I can't find anymore. Where do I buy a CD or a record? I don't know if your record collection stems from when you were young or you've just rebuilt it, but I think of all the records I had, I'm like, oh, darn it. And now my wife and I are kind of rebuilding that. And I still have my, down in my basement, I have these shelves that were built for me. I think there's 3,000 CDs. You know, obviously music's a big part of probably why I got into radio. And I guess the generations now don't know what that's like for the album art and to read the liner notes and to listen to the album cuts. It's just they give you the single, but that might not be your favorite song on the album, right? There might just be something else that touches you, and you don't get that, unfortunately, nowadays. No, and as someone who still likes making full-length records, even though singles are probably the way to go, I like the experience of writing an album and thinking about how I going to put a softer song on there that isn necessarily a hit song you know as track five or something or the last song on the record or whatever it is even programming it So it an experience for someone that does actually sit down and listen to it. I think about those things. And I know maybe only 1% of the population cares, but for me, it's important the way something flows, it tells a story in some manner. I think in that format, you're more apt to listen to it that way. I kept most of my collection from when I was a kid, but I definitely got rid of things that I was sad about. But I remember when Tom Petty passed away, the very first record I ever bought was Damn the Torpedoes. And I went and found it, and I still had it. And then unfortunately, when I went to play it, I realized that I'd owned it as a nine-year-old or whatever it was. It was in pretty bad shape. And I was like, well, I'll have to rebuy that one because that has been abused by someone that wasn't taking care of their collection. So money won't be an object. You get to pick any pin for your first pin. What's it going to be, Justin? It's really hard. I would say I'm kind of veering between one of the remakes, like Attack from Mars or Monster Bash, maybe deciding between one of those, I think, just because I think when I first got into pinball again, those kinds of machines tended to be the most satisfying for me, and they'd be fun to master and get to the end of. Yeah, and I think like Iron Maiden, if it was a different theme, I would consider that, but I think that is maybe holding me back, especially if it was one machine. But in terms of one that I love to play, that would be another. Do you have any recommendations? No, I think your suggestions are great. I mean, you cannot go wrong with AFM or Monster Bash. I think the two I would pick, I'm really a big fan of the Monster Bash layout. but it's as close to the original as possible. AFM is spectacular, too. Don't get me wrong. It's a little different, just a little bit different than the original. I felt that, too, because since I have played on location in different places, I've occasionally played in the original, and I find that it does feel different. But I've heard maybe the Monster Bash is less so. And you've played a newer Monster Bash? Yeah, I think it's great. I've played all three models. They were all at Freeplay Florida, and I was amazed at, wow, these are great. And the enhancements, I mean, yeah, they're doing a great job there. Yeah, and those ramps, there's something about those that also has that satisfying feeling when you hit them. I bet the next time we talk, and now that you've put it out there on Pinball Profile and on a podcast, you're going to be like, yeah, I've got to get one. Exactly. I'm not going to talk about it because people are going to bug me. So now you'll have one, which will soon turn to two, three, four, five. I don't know how many in your basement hold. It's going to happen. How many do you have? Right now, nine. And I'm tapped out at nine just for spacing. Yeah. I already had to get rid of where I had my drums and stuff, which sucks because I miss playing. But, yeah, nine's good. That's amazing. So you were a drummer? Yes. Awesome. Did you play in bands and things like that? You ever heard of Led Zeppelin? Yeah.
    22:09
    Because I love them. Yeah, because I love them. That's what got me into drumming. What did you think? I'm not Bonzo. Yeah, no, I... Did you have the double bass drum?
    22:22
    No, I never had a double. I didn't even have a double kick either, too, which is too bad because it would have been nice to have. But no, I'm a spaz with my feet. I'm so much better with my hands than my feet, you know? So, you know, I think of some of Bonham's triplets and stuff, and I'm like, wow, this guy's great, especially when he's using his bass. Oh, my gosh. Do you know how long it took me to play When the Levee Breaks and just that kind of off beat? Oh, God. I talked to Jason Bonham about it. He's been on my radio show a few times, and I'm just like, your dad's like a beast. He said, yeah, it's not easy. It just is great. I don't know if it's sense or lack of timing. Whatever it is, it's rock and roll, and I love it. No, they were tapping into something new with what they were doing, even though it was using a lot of old blues stuff. I think it was the drums that really propel a lot of that music. You know what, Justin? I think. What? Drumming has helped me with pinball because of the hand eye. I believe it. Actually, I notice that I'm playing with my band often, and I think about that when I'm playing with my drummer because I'm thinking his timing has got to be just amazingly perfect in that sense. Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, the three biggest factors for me for pinball that I think my real life apply to pinball are experience playing drums for years, baseball, because baseball, I think of the pinball flippers as bats, And do I want to pull the ball or do I want to go the other way? So that's also timing and hand-eye as well. And then my nerd background from when I went to university for math, so that kind of problem-solving. And do you think of all the great pinball players like the Bowen Karens and Stephen Bowden and all these wizards that are experts in math? And I think, okay, I've got a little bit of that in me too. Yeah, I think that's like the strategy side of pinball that I don't think I even realized there was strategy until someone said, No, it's like kind of a complicated board game. You have to know the rules in order to score well. Yeah, so I think all three of those things make perfect sense. If I could ever apply them, though, for God's sakes, if I could ever apply them and just get lucky once in a while.
    24:28
    That's the fun part is that there is a lot of luck involved as well because it's random. Without the randomness, it wouldn't be as fun. It's fun, and it's the people that play, too, and it's people like yourself. I hope you get to some of these competitions. I'm going to be in your neck of the woods. I think you're touring, though, and I'm there in Chicago, 8, 9, 10 for the Stern Pro Circuit. That'll be a lot of fun. Oh, cool. At Bottom Lounge, so looking forward to that. And it's been great talking to you, Justin. Yeah, hopefully we'll meet in person at some point. I foresee that happening. Thank you very much, and all the best, and keep up the great work. Thanks, great talking to you, too. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us, pinballprofile, at gmail.com. and please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I'm Jeff Teoles.