You're listening to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. Find us on Facebook. Email us at headtoheadpinball at gmail.com or go to our website, headtoheadpinball.com. Cheers! Cheers! Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 89 and my name is Martin and with me... Joe Lemire. Joe Lemire, how are you? I am excellent, how are you? I am very good. It's pretty late for you there, I'd imagine. You're in Massachusetts, I'm in Melbourne and it's quite a time distance. So it's been good to be able to finally do this podcast together because we met last year, I believe. Yes, at Pemberg. It was an awesome experience. And yes, when it comes to the time, I think we're literally on opposite sides of the world because it's like 9.20 here, and I think it's pretty close to that where you are. Yeah, 11.20 in the morning. So, you know, it's a couple of hours. And obviously, you know, meeting you last year at Pemberg was great. I mean, obviously, we'd spoken before via social media and got to meet you. But there was one thing that we obviously have to mention About last year's Pimberg that happened And that was I got to play my very first dollar game What happened? You lost I lost badly What were we playing? I kept thinking was it Shitty's Liquor or something? I think so Because I think we played again in the group that we had just played And both of us were having issues with that game So we said, why not? Yeah, a bit of shits and giggles, really. Yeah. So that was my first and last dollar game. Yeah, you wanted to do more. You said you were going to do more, but you're a hard man to get down. Well, and that was obviously your other gripe, was that I bailed on you instead of going out drinking. So, you know, I say no regrets because I got a good night's sleep, and the next day I qualified well to get in A Division. and it was that night before finals for A Division that I did go out drinking and then bombed the next morning. So this is, you know, the balance that you've got to take into account when you go over there is, are you there for a party or are you there to compete? Those people that can do both, gee, my hat goes off to you. Oh, and I am not one of those people. I don't think, because I think that the night in question, I believe, was the night between going into the Intergalactic because when we went out with the pins. Yeah. And I think that that one, so I don't think it was, it was after the main tournament was over. Right. I believe, which is why it was even on the table because I'm the same way as you where I can't go all that way to play in that kind of a tournament and mess it up by drinking. Well. And not sleeping. And there were people that could do both, so they are better men than you and I. They are. But let's talk about you as a competitive player? Because, you know, let's say top 100, but almost top 50, right? Yeah, I think I'm 52 the last time I looked. I jumped up a big amount because of how well I did in Vegas. Right, so then tell me about your competitive journey. How did you get to, let's call it top 50. We'll round up. How did you get to be top 50? I mean, it's been a very quick journey, I guess, certainly compared to a lot of the people I play against and play with here locally. I don't know how long have you been playing? About five years. Wow. See? All right. So you were even younger than I, but I've been playing for, I think, roughly at this point eight years, I believe, is when I started, and it was just kind of random the way it happened. And me and my girlfriend at the time, we were both unemployed, and we were trying to figure out what to do that wasn't too expensive. And Pinball Wizard had just opened up in New Hampshire, which was the biggest collection of pinball machines I had ever seen in my life. So we went up there, and then while we were there, someone mentioned that there was this pinball show in Pennsylvania, Pinfest. and that was my first show and then I found out about Pin Mania which happens in Maine and that was my first tournament. So it all kind of just blew up from there and then the whole pinball scene just blossomed. I seem to have gotten in right when the pinball scene in New Robert Englunds was just getting started or about to explode. And would you say that you're somebody that plays a lot of tournaments or are you one that plays selected tournaments but just happens to do really well in them? No, I play a lot. Pretty much I tend to play in all medium to high importance tournaments in New Robert Englunds, if I can. It's pretty much every weekend or every other weekend, it seems. And then obviously the majors like Pinberg. Now, so last year in Pinberg, you came, I believe, 87th? I believe so. And it sounds to me, I believe we tied. Oh, that was my point I was just going to make. I was just going to say, do you know what I came? And, yeah, it was also 87th. So, you know, I can say I tied with a top 50 player. So, I'm kind of... You played amazing, dude. When I played with you, I'm like, I couldn't believe who you were. And then we were playing, and I'm like, no, he's really good. He's not just a podcaster. You might be one of the best podcasters. Well, you proved that at the Trash Talker, didn't you? Yeah, I did. Yeah, look, it was actually really funny because I remember as part of the finals, you know, Jeff Teolis tapped a couple of interviews, and he got me on stage for the interview and I was like, you know, genuinely surprised with my performance. I was like, yeah, I'm really stoked and, you know, of course I'd be happy. And I had these comments saying, honestly, this guy's a bit arrogant. It's like, no, I was just genuinely surprised, first of all, that I managed to get an A division and then did relatively well on day two. So hopefully I get to do it again. You know, I'm assuming that there's pressure coming back. you always want to do better than what you did last. Is that right? Oh, yeah. I mean, and you always tend to... I mean, Pinberg is probably the hardest tournament that there is. At least it certainly has been a really difficult tournament for me. I don't know. I know that you guys don't have a lot of the older games out in Australia as much as moderns. Definitely not on location. Some of these events we do. So the flip out that we did last year with the Melbourne Silver Wall tournament that I put on had quite a few old games. And by old, I mean really solid state, not too many EMs. So we don't really get to practice that much on the older machines. Yeah, and it's not dissimilar here. And also the fact that, I mean, like you had mentioned, I mean, you've been in it for five years. I've been in it for eight years. We've only really been playing modern pinball. So in a tournament that is almost 50-50 in, you know, being good at the EMs and the early Sterlitz solid states, it's hard to be consistent when you're in, you know, going through a bank like that and still be, you know, that consistent and be able to score that high. My best year I think I've ever had was probably last year. and I think after two years, not yet two years, after two rounds, I believe I was first in A, going into like the second or third round and I was first, and then I was like top ten or so going into the final group of the night, and the final group of the night was me, Josh Sharpe, Raymond Davidson and I want to say Adam Becker or something like that. You fucked either way, really. Oh yeah, it was brutal. And it couldn't have been any worse. I didn't do well. It was super late. Our first game was Twilight Zone, which had this intermittent registering problem that they tried to fix multiple times. And then eventually they gave up on it and they threw us on NBA Stern NBA so we played that but our group we didn't finish until like one in the morning or something like that and then there were tie breakers for stuff and it was just like oh god so yeah I didn't sleep all that night and then it was just all downhill the next night lots of stories similar stories going around I'm sure oh yeah but it's by far the best tournament there is. So let me ask you a question that I ask a lot of the top players because the audience that we have we sort of try to be all things to everybody so we do have collectors, we have people that are just casually interested some people that just like the news and also obviously tournament players and so the question I like to ask is because it's almost like I want to know what advice you would give people that are wanting to get better at their game but what have you done over the years to become a top player? There's been multiple things, but I mean, I just, I'm a really super competitive person. So when I get into something like this, I really get into it. So like when the scene started and I met, I still distinctly remember the first time I ever met Bowen and he was at a tournament because he lives, you know, a couple hours from here. And he was at a tournament and I'm like, I was like, whoa, are you, he was playing Spider-Man. And I was like, you're the guy from the tutorials. Like, that's so amazing. And I was like, well, I was like, they don't have a tutorial for Spider-Man. Are you going to make one for Spider-Man? And he was like, well, let's do one right now. I was like, what? So he, and it was hilarious because, and then he just blew the game up. He put up like 1.5 billion or something like that. He got the superhero. He beat superhero. and everything was fully multiplied and then he lost the ball and then he just was like, and now we don't play anymore because it's not worth it. Right. Because there was no multipliers and I'm just like, huh, huh. So every time that he was around, I always made sure I played with him and I absorbed everything I could. I asked as many questions as he could stand and I watched what he did. I observed to make sure that I tried to absorb everything I could. and so I made sure that the best players at the time when I was coming up, I made sure I played with them and I made sure I could try and get everything I could out of those experiences and the other big thing is I'm a big rules person, so I study rules that I make sure because as far as, you know, no matter how good you are to a certain extent, you can't really control the game completely, but my knowledge of the game, I'd always looked at that as completely under my control, and that's something that I can do and hone not being around a pinball machine. Do you learn rules by doing, or do you do it by reading? Every, really all of it. I mean, at the time, I remember all my lunch breaks at work, I'd watch tutorials. Pretty much every single video that Papa ever made, I watched, and learn how to play each of the games whenever new code came out for Stern. And still to this day, I read all the code notes. I make sure that if there's anything that has changed majorly that I'm aware of it so I don't get caught blind by something that has completely changed. Or when new games come out that are really super evolving, I make sure that I have an idea of what I should do on the game even before I've actually had a chance to play it. And now they have the reveals and everything. I make sure I try and watch those so that I'm ready the first time I get the... Like, I've played monsters maybe five times at this point, but I know the rules in and out for the most part. I know what I need to do. I know what does what and what the general strategy is. And that's just been pretty much I put the time in to make sure that I'm not... that I have an idea of what I'm doing so that it's not... the part of it where you also have to think while you're playing, which can obviously have its own downsides. sides. I've tried to get rid of that as much as possible so at least I can prepare for the parts that are preparable for, I guess. Can we just do a bit of a time out there now on Munsters? I wanted to talk about it later, but now's probably a good time. Because we're trying to understand who appeals to the Munsters appeals to. So, you know, a lot of people have sort of said, you know, they're trying to go for the casual player, but yet it's that brutal. People have also said, really, it's all about getting points, and, you know, obviously the jackpot's with your multipliers, so therefore it's a tournament player's game. Where do you think it lies? I mean, of all the whining that goes down in pinball, I think that the monsters have gotten the brunt of it recently. I don't know. I'm starting to learn that literally nothing is good for anyone because it's just things that, regardless of the quality of the game or what people put into it, people are just never happy, and there's always a vocal minority or majority that they're just not happy with the game. And it's just kind of like I've talked to some of the people at Sturgeon, and I'm just like, good for you guys. I'm so glad that you guys control them and not stuff and just be able to just sit and do your job and enjoy your job without having to hear this crap that goes on online. Like, good for you. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it seems, I mean, like I mentioned, I haven't had a ton of time on it, but understanding how the game works, it seems like it has something for everybody. I mean, as far as the ball save goes, I'm in the camp that, yeah, sure, if you lose the ball and you pay to play that game and you lose the ball right away, okay, well, I think that the concept of ball save, I think pinball would be better off without it. Honestly, because of I've heard other people say it and I kind of agree, is that the concept of ball save to people, people who aren't us, is a confusing thing. And from watching people play, most of them have no idea what is happening. So when you see people walk away and it's like, no, no, no, Oh, they have no idea. They're like, oh, another ball? How come? Why? Don't get it. Or they think that that's like if they plunge the ball, and even if they understand that there's three balls, they get three balls, and they plunge the ball, they lose the ball, they get a ball save, and then they plunge the next ball that's been three balls, so they'll just leave. But let me just simplify this if I can, Joe. There really is only one difference. Ready? You ready for it? So the difference is, by default, the ball save is set to off. That's all it is. I know. Just by default. So you go in. So on mine, as you know, I've got the LE. And the first night I was streaming it, I was just getting really frustrated with the amount of health balls I was getting. And it actually started making me feel like I didn't like the game. So turn the ball save on. And I literally put a three-second ball save on. Three-second, which is, as you know, fuck all. But it just stopped house balls. Now, I've got a choice to do that. And, you know, problem solved. So this whole, you don't have a ball save, that's not true. By default, it is not turned on. Yeah, but you can do whatever you want to. You can. You can. And I've seen that operators are putting it on. And there you go. I don't know it's just it's just really interesting that something so simple as a a setting on your machine that says yes or no has caused such grief amongst the community yeah and it's weird because it's it's mainly the hardcore competitive pinball people who it bugs the most right and it's like but the the general public they don't even I don't think that they notice or care it makes you know So it's just, it's weird too, because it's like, like you mentioned about like, oh, well, I'm getting house balls. Like, I, I don't know, I, sometimes, I'm, I mean, I'm sure I'm definitely in the minority when it comes to, but like a lot of, like that term of house ball, like, there's really, in modern pinball, there's really almost not a thing anymore. like almost everything or any way you use the ball nowadays in modern pinball it tends to be our fault yeah that's true but it all becomes in comparison as obviously you know ball save did start and so you would expect that you'd get a flip and you know we sort of talked about the majority of machines that we've been playing for the last you know 5, 6 years 8 for you have been the modern era games that by default have a ball save but you know when you do go to the very biggest of biggest tournaments they turn that stuff off so you you know there is no ball safe but it just becomes in comparison to what we're used to and we kind of just look and go huh why is that different why would they do that what's the purpose of it being turned off by default and you know the the community explodes as a result yeah and it's pretty much it's just because i mean like you said it's what we're used to versus everyone who grew up in the Solid State era and before, they probably look at it in a completely different way of being like, now, what's this spoiled thing that we have? What's this ball save? We've never had ball save before. And I think that the main... It's interesting, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the things that Dwight does, and the way he looks at rule sets and various other things, most of them having to do with Ghostbusters. But, like, I can see his concept with this game and why there's no ball save is because it probably... I mean, the game has probably the easiest multiball ever. So, like, he's saying that, yeah, you don't have this ball save, but your multiball is only, like, two or three shots away. So it's like, well, you don't have the safety of that, But, you know, as he says, it's like, you know, the game is closer to the start button, I think was the phrase he used that because it's like the game is easier purposely seemingly to offset that ball save, or at least that's the way it was designed. So you get into a little bit of an issue where if you add a ball save on, all of a sudden I would assume that the audits for that game skyrocket for time played. Because if the game was designed and the fact that this multiball was only three shots away without a ball save, now you give someone a ball save and they can probably start that multiball within the safety of a ball save, then the times for that game, I imagine, have a pretty big spike compared to what the intent was. Because, I mean, even I remember on the stream, even him and the other Stern people were like, do not turn the ball safe on. It's not supposed to be on. And that's probably why, specifically because of Herman, because of the way that they designed that multiball being so easy to start. Fair enough. That those two combo together probably leads to games lasting way too long and angry, you know, operators. But again, you've got a choice. I think you've got a choice to make Herman harder from the outset. So you could do that. You could make it harder and put Ball Save on. But I guess the point is you've got choice. You've got options. Oh, yeah. Everything is completely, there's nothing in there or in a lot of these things that it's not completely up to, you know, the operator, which is just things sometimes where, in a situation like this where you just really don't know what to expect if you walk into a barcade or any other place where you just see a monster sitting there. You have no idea what it might be set to because of that, because you don't know. Does it have a ball safe? I don't know. I guess we'll find out in a second. Exactly. You know, that kind of thing where now it's left to... And I know that one of the local operators here got, like, an earful for not having that on and eventually put it on because so many people were super pissed off about it. So I can definitely see that that can... I bet you that's how it has turned out that most of them are on now. Yeah. And I'll be curious to see if they ever do this again. Yeah, I'd be very keen to see. So back to our regular program and your pimple journey. So you have owned machines over the years, I believe. Yes. I owned a Metallica that I sold to get a Hobbit and then I've also owned a Grand Prix, and they're all gone now. So are you okay not having machines at home? I prefer to not have machines at home. I've noticed and come to realize that I play so much when I'm out. When I'm home, I want to do things that are not pinball related. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, I get that. I started streaming because I just had machines at home and never played them, so that was forcing me. They're really expensive paperweights They can be Yeah Dust collectors So you had a Hobbit Well I had a Hobbit What did you think of it? Owning a Hobbit Was probably One of the most like I don't know what the word is but just Tragic things I've done in pinball Like I Wanted that game to be so amazing I grew up, you know, of the few times I played pinball before I actually really got into playing pinball. I loved Lord of the Rings. I've always loved the movies. And it's my favorite pinball machine. And I've always been like, well, I would love to own one, but they're really expensive and they're used. And so I'm like, I can't spend that kind of money on a used game. And then The Hobbit gets announced and I'm just like, oh my God, there it is. that's going to be my first new in-box machine. I have to have that. That's always been my dream of a Tolkien-based game, and the Hobbit movies were not as good as Lord of the Rings, obviously. But it was the closest, next best thing, and what I had seen, it seemed really fun. I played it a couple times, and it seemed exactly what I wanted, and it didn't stay that way. yeah it um it wasn't everything that i had hoped it would be it didn't have the kind of rule set that really lended itself for being a home game and um just some of the rules in that game just really bothered me and it and unfortunately i sold it before the last the final code update came out, which I think would have helped. I probably would have kept it a little bit longer, but it didn't fix the undergrained problems. I think you would have kept it a little bit longer, and I sort of said that a number of times, that I kind of like machines where you don't get the... Oh, God, it's such a thing to say that people are going to jump down my neck for, but I kind of like getting unfinished code because when you get the code updates, it sort of breathes some freshness into the machine. Oh, definitely. I think that it's a huge, that's like, people whine about that and complain about that a lot, but if I owned a game and like every couple months the game was practically new, and I had all these new things, it's like Christmas every month. It's like, that sounds amazing to me. Exactly, and I remember, you know, I love my Star Trek, but I remember the Toad update that happened, and it was a massive update. It was when they introduced the Carl Urban custom call-outs, and then they added the medals. It just... That was such a massive update and it was just so exciting to have that that, again, I just played it over and over and over because it did transform the game. I would love to be in that kind of situation again where I've got a machine, I'm enjoying it and Hobbit was like that. I enjoyed it. Just after a while, I just felt like I was doing the same thing and wanted it to work. Because I was doing the same thing, right? Yeah. I have played the latest code, and it's still pretty much the same thing. Yeah, I mean, it adds a lot of polish that was needed. It added instant info, which I can't believe the game didn't have that until the very last code update. Like, of all of the games, I think that... And granted, I mean, I still really like the game. I like the game more than most people. I mean, it seems universally hated by everyone here that I know. and it's not that bad but I don't think that there's a game that people just write off more than The Hobbit and just be like I have no idea what this does I have no idea how to play this game this game makes no sense and I don't feel like putting in the effort to learn it. And it's everyone who came over to my house to play it after we went through it and walked through how to do it this is what this does this is how you get this this is why this is like this those people learned to like the game but you know it's just there was seemingly so little effort put into wanting to bring you in to give you the information you needed to understand what you were doing you know that it just the Wizard of Oz was like that Wizard of Oz was probably even worse because at least Hobbit had inserts with words on it that you knew what their purpose was. Wizard of Oz was even harder, a much bigger barrier to entry because, you know, the catchphrase everyone's always said, you know, what do you go for in Wizard of Oz? The flash and light. Well, they were all flash and light. Yeah. If you're lucky. Correct. I think Hobbit did a better job of it. Yeah, I think probably the big miss I found was the modes. Too many of them and not distinct enough. Even though they had different objectives, it's like, well, with the layout that you've got, with fairly limited shots, they made the most of it, but still there was just something missing. But I actually really enjoy playing it now when I come up against it. I just didn't need it in my collection anymore. Yeah, and I think that it falls in the same place. Thankfully, someone locally bought it that operates so I can go play my smog there whenever I feel like it. And I do really enjoy playing it when it's not my game. I kind of agree with the modes. It's weird to have so many modes, and some of them are similar. Some of them seem like throwaway modes. I mean, one of them is literally a one-shot mode. A polyp that ramps up my game. Yeah, the right ramp for the ring. Yep. you know and so it if you have no I can definitely see if you have no attachment to the mode or you don't know the movies or none of that matters to you I can see definitely see why all of it just seems like it's there and it's not you have no attachment to what you're doing so that it's just like okay I'm shooting this drop okay now I'm shooting this troll and then I'm going back and shooting the troll and if it's in an arcade setting where you can't hear it which honestly the sound in that game is one of the best things in that game. The sound I find in that game is very, very good. So if you don't have an emotional attachment to it and you can't really hear it, I can see why most people just go, eh. I mean, I had the right idea when it came to the trolls of how that is the thing for the casual player that even if you have no idea what you're doing, you're probably going to just flail your way into playing that, and then they'll love it, and I'm sure, and I know, from what I've heard, the game crushes on location. That people just, you know, love doing that, but, yeah, it was, it, and, of course, it lost its value to such a ridiculous degree. Which just made it so much worse and heartbreaking, because it's like, it wasn't, like, if I had bought Stern, I would've, and I didn't like it, I could've just sold it and gotten pretty much what I paid for it or just a little bit under. But I lost like two grand on that hobby. And that just makes it, now it's gone from just thinking of it as a mistake to that was like a really big mistake. And it was just, so then that's even more salty in my memory than it really needs to be. Yeah, same for me. I think, yeah, three, in Australian dollars, I think three grand I was down. But, you know, I kind of just went, you know, it is what it is and sort of just moved it forward. Yeah, and of all of their games, that's probably the only one that I wouldn't have enjoyed owning, honestly. I mean, all the other games probably have a lot more, like, longevity there. Yeah, well, you know, Wizard of Oz actually just got a big code update. Well, I say big, but it's a full IFO install. So 7.01 is released mainly for the Yellow Brick Road edition. And, you know, a couple of notes that I've made from it really is it's two things really. One is that now you can not have the monkey at all. So that's really supporting Yellow Brick Road. And also up on the top left where you've got the castle doors, previously if you hit both castle doors at the same time, it would count it twice. Now it only counts it once. so sure, whatever and the only other thing I've noticed is some improved lighting effects which look great but you know, that's I would have loved a much bigger update but the point about Wizard of Oz for me is I just don't think it'll ever go from my collection, there's just so much to do in it and I think the way the rules and the layout integrate is actually really good I mean I haven't played Pirates yet. I've heard that Pirates is amazing. Yeah, I think it is. I haven't had a chance to play a production game, but outside of that, I mean, Wizard of Oz I think is gonna, is an amazing game, and it's funny because it goes back to The Hobbit, is that, like, in reality, you know, I was looking at The Hobbit as hopefully being like, Lord of the Rings 2.0, but in reality, Wizard of Oz is Lord of the Rings 2.0. And that's right, so when we had Keith P. Johnson on, he said that effectively the rules for Lord of the Rings for Wizard of Oz was effectively Lord of the Rings 2.0 Yeah, and it's I've you know, I started off not really liking the game because it was the one that was on location was a prototype and it had old code and it just had so many issues with it the light boards didn't work and it was just and I don't know, how long have you had your Wizard of Oz? Did you have it rather early in the process? No, quite late on. However, it is an early model. So, you know, the story is that, I don't know if you know the whole bumper action thing, but effectively a company who took a lot of people's money, had ownership change and never delivered anyone's machines, but they took the money and there was all these legal battles and stuff. So, as a gesture of goodwill, Jack decided to make these Australian Land Down Under editions, but they were effectively they were like a 2013 build even though I think I got mine in 2015-16 yeah because there were a couple on location early on and my favorite bug and just like this weird thing that they just didn't think of is that early on in the code that if you got up to the you know the castle area, and if you hit the doors and the ball got through the doors, what would happen is the ball would sit in there, it'd go through ball search, it'd open the doors while ball searching, close the doors, then kick the ball, and then it would open the doors again, pushing the ball back, and it was in this cycle, it would never come out. I remember that. It was just like, so when that would happen, you're like, cool, well, I remember, I think I'm playing at a local amusement park, and it would go in there, and they'd just be like, well, there's that for the day. I was like, you could update it to fix that. And then, there's updates for these? Yeah, I'm like, okay, sorry. I think that it's a great game. There's really none on location around here to play it. There's some in some personal collections that I always love playing when I get the chance. I still think that that's probably their best packaged game that I've played is that it's just... I mean, I don't, like, could care less about fucking Wizard of Oz, but, I mean, it's just the package. It's a perfect package, really. I think they've done very well. Hey, so back to, I just realised, back to, you know, tournaments. So we just started today. I think it's probably maybe two or three hours ago. 20, what's it called? Death by Pinball has started in Australia. So that's at Netherworld in Brisbane. And it is a 24-hour tournament, similar to 24 Hours at the Sanctum, which I believe you've been to. I have. That is, for the longest time, that was kind of our big local tournament in Connecticut. They're like an hour and a half from where we live. And, yes, me and my girlfriend have competed in every year of that. So how many years is that? Oh, jeez, I can just look behind me to see if I can find the medals. I want to say it's four years or five years. Okay. So if you're right now, you're in Death by Pinball, and you're three hours into the tournament, what are you thinking? Three hours? Yep. Nothing. Just playing pinball. But what do you do to prepare yourself, knowing that you're going to go for 24 hours? I mean, it freaks a lot of people out. I know people who talk about it and they're like, wow, how could you possibly do that? It's like, when you play and you're there, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, as long as, you know, you're not eating crap and you're staying hydrated, it's really not that bad. Your body tends to just go with it if you're constantly playing. As long as you're constantly doing something, you can stay awake for the most part. I mean, I forget how many people were playing. I won the first year, which was cool. I got a banner, which I may never get a Papa banner, but I do have a banner. And then came in second the second year to Steven Bowden. And then after that, the floodgates opened and Bowen started coming and the big boys are coming. And I know Zach came one year, and he swore he'd never do it again. But other people who enjoy it, and it's different, but I think it's more of a mental thing. I mean, as a lot of people are like, well, how can you possibly stay focused and still be playing well when you're that tired? It's like, well, you can't. But everyone is doing the same thing. So it's all relative. They're all withering as well. Yeah, and still, even by that time, there's still people who are doing amazing things. and like, how are you still playing that well at this time? But it's just, your body just... Is there some stage, like, I think it was Bowen that was saying, you know, really, it's water, don't fill yourself up on sugar, but surely there's got to be some stage where you go, right, I need a coffee to keep going or an energy drink or something beyond water, and then there's the food intake as well. Like, do you actually put that much thought into what you're going to eat and drink for 24 hours? Um, and, well, I mean, how much, like, do I, do we plan out, I mean, yeah, we bring food, do we put a much, like, oh, is this the type of food we should be eating? No, we don't necessarily do that. Uh, we just kind of bring stuff, like, we'll bring jerky, or, like, nuts, or, you know, we have, we drink G-fuel, so that's what we use for energy, because it's, doesn't, it's sugar-free. so that helps because we've had we've had years where we had too much caffeine and that was obviously bad and then last year we almost were never going to play again because both of us got extremely sick by the end of it so we were like wishing for death at that point and both of us going we are never playing this again why would we ever do this this was terrible but this year went perfectly fine so that clearly was a one off thing but I mean there's some people who take it super serious of, like, I'm going to eat this, and, you know, every X hours I'm going to eat this, and that's how I'm going to sustain myself. I mean, it's also the difference between, like, you know, where Bowen lives in his skill level, that, you know, he can drop a decent amount before he's in any threat of the rest of us. So he has a lot further to fall, you know, but he was, like, power-napping between rounds, which, good for him, I can't my body just refuses to let me sleep like that, so I didn't have that option, so like me and Teolis were just playing dollar games the entire time just to keep our souls awake but yeah, some people can do it and it's no big deal other people just can't hang, but I mean, I think you would enjoy it, I really do I think that it would be a really fun experience for you if you ever decided to do it yeah i i'm not opposed to it i um i a good friend of mine stew um thornton is in it the moment and he was there the last year and probably the year before as well and i know the recovery he goes through is pretty grueling so that's that's the bit i worry about is the after getting through it i think it'll be fine the key we found is that you just make sure you stay up so it starts on what Saturday morning and goes to Sunday morning I think that the biggest thing or the best thing you can do for yourself is make sure you stay up until Sunday night Yeah, okay. Because if you go, if you, like, you're done the tournament and you go to sleep, you're not sleeping that night. Yeah. Because you're, you know, then all of a sudden the rest of your week is screwed. So we just try and, like, try and stay up. If we have to, we'll only nap for, like, an hour and set an alarm to make sure because the key is just making sure that you're still within your sleep cycle. And if you sleep during the day, you're not going to wake up for three hours and then go sleep for another eight hours. That's not how it works. Well, there you go. There's some words of advice too if you're listening. And obviously, you know, being, you know, tournament, you get around and there's people that, you know, you grab their attention. And there's someone that's actually got a bit of a message for you and a question for you. Let me introduce this. I have a question. You morons know it's Easter, right? Then why do you have a leprechaun like Joe LeMare on? Pfft! What's it matter? You've got Halloween Masked Marty on each week anyway. Here's my question. Joe, at Pinmasters in Vegas, I saw you beat up losers like Keolis and Thingalo on Star Wars using Leia. Tell us your Leia secret, old Padawan. and may the fuck off be with you! Oh, it's amazing. So good. So what's your strategy for Star Wars with the Leia strategy? It's funny because he was... I forget what tournament he was in, but after Vegas... Did you think I paid you, by the way? Oh, of course. I mean, it's definitely not Teolos. but his friend Tealus was in a tournament and he was asking in our group text of what do you do on Star Wars and I told him how to do the Leia strategy but ironically in Vegas I did not do the Leia strategy because honestly I didn't know it at that point the Leia strategy is kind of like a super ridiculous version of the strategy that I was doing I didn't realize that the way the Leia her power when she's her power says that she's strong in missions which is obviously super vague so I assumed that oh cool so she gets more points in missions maybe they're twice as much I don't know which might still be true. I don't know how the points that they normally are, but apparently she gets a lot more points when just lighting modes or even just shooting mode shots. So this is ironic because I did an episode with Jeff Parsons the week before Vegas, which was telling him the strategy that I knew about lighting modes and not actually taking them and using them to get points. And then I found out about this Leia thing, which kind of is the same thing, just way more points. But yeah, pretty much what it does is that you play Leia, and on your plunge, you want to pick Light Tatooine, because you never want to shoot that thing, so get that out of the way. And then after that, once you play, you pretty much want to do... You start your three on the big three shots, which is Death Star, Endor, and Hoth. You set your multipliers over there, and you just want to hit each of those shots three times to light your mode. And the more they're multiplied, the bigger the points. But if you get them multiplied at all, or even just base, if you light all three of those modes, you're talking like 400, 500 million. Oh, okay. It's pretty ridiculous. I tried it for the first time two weekends ago in a tournament, and every time I did it, I was getting like 500 million base without playing any modes. So that's actually just getting to like the modes. That's not actually even starting the modes. No, like it's literally just so... I'm not sure what the actual base numbers are, but it's literally if you hit Endor, and then you hit Endor again, and then you hit Endor again. Each of those times you hit it, it is multiplying it, and it's going up in points, plus the multiplier, and then it gives you a big payoff for actually lighting the mode. So say it's 20 million, I think it's like maybe 20 million normally, so maybe with her it might be 40, but that times 2, or whatever the multiplier is, is really big. And then each subsequent mode that you light is worth more, you know, progressively. So, say, if the first mode was 20, the second one is 30, and the next one's 40. Or something along those lines. At least that's my understanding of it. But with Leia, it's even more. And all of the shots leading up to those final shots are even more. So, you're getting paid out for hitting those shots to a value that is far superior to almost anything else you'd be doing in the game at that point. I mean, nine shots. So it's good for a get some points quickly up front in the game, really. Yeah, and what really it's good for is it gives you a great foundation. And honestly, in a lot of games, 500 million, which is probably the basement of where these points can possibly be, is going to beat most people on Star Wars. Well, because it's such a brutal game and, you know, it can be over within seconds, that time you have is precious. So if you can get as much points in as little time as possible, that's a good place. Exactly, like nine shots. But, you know, there are downsides. So, like, I was doing a similar strategy with Han, but that was only giving you, like, say, 250, 300, right? But the big difference there is that I've noticed when now I've done both strategies is that Han has way better options on each subsequent plunge available. He can get Ball Save. He can get, like, TIE Fighters and a few other things. Her choices are pretty bad. They're, like, Advanced Force, whatever that, Force Training or something like that. She gets 3x multipliers, bonus multipliers. she can light other modes which you don't want to do because then you're going to lose those points and then I want to say the other one is like it's another bad choice none of them are really good choices so you're just kind of like eh so that kind of sucks and then also the modes available for her comparatively to Han are pretty garbage because on Han you have for Hoth Endor and Tatooine all three of those two missions are done on each of those trees so you're only one mode away from a wizard mode. So technically three modes away from three wizard modes, which is huge. Right. But for her, I believe that she only starts with two missions in Tatooine, and the rest is wide open. So you're very far from the wizard modes outside of the Tatooine wizard mode, but I assume all of her modes are worth way more, or a lot more comparatively, too. so I don't know if that part of it after you're done doing that specific thing I don't know how much what the risk reward is there comparatively to how bad your you know late game suffers for taking those upfront points I'm not sure because I've only really done it in one tournament so but yeah when I did it I was told they mentioned it in Vegas and Escher was talking about it but he's like no I don't think that's a good idea. And then Colin ended up doing it later on in the rounds, but he mentioned it, and he told me how to do it, and he's like, I probably wouldn't do it. I'm like, okay, well, I never ended up using it there, but then I went home, and I'm like, oh, I heard about this thing, so I tried it, and I looked up and saw the points, and I was like, holy shit! That is crazy! And it was funny, because I was in the knockout that I was in, it was in a final group, it was a one-game playoff, I had one strike, he had eight strikes, and we had one game on Star Wars, he played for a very long time and he had like I want to say like maybe 100 million points or something like that and then I went up there and literally took like 3 shots beat him on that ball and then died and then he was like what the fuck he doesn't really know the game that much but just seeing it and he's like and then my second ball I jumped up to like 500 million and he's like what the heck I'm like yeah I just, you know, this game, you've got to know this stuff. And it's just like, it was crazy. Awesome. Well, well done. And thank you, Petey, for, you know, giving that question to Joe. We really appreciate all your contributions. There's never enough time for Petey. Exactly. Shall we get into some pinball news? Sure. Let's do this. Deeproot, have you been following the progress of Deeproot? which probably really isn't a lot. I mean, I've been following it from the beginning and I've been one of the people who have been super excited to see if they can back up 90% of what they're talking about and what that'll do to the industry. So I've been on the side of rooting for them to see it. And with one of my friends, Steve, going to work there and talking to him at Pentastic, it was just kind of like, all right, well, now there's no wondering if it's true or if it's going to happen because, well, he's working there. He took that job after what he saw. So I completely trust that what they're doing is that big of a deal, and it's just that they want to make sure that they get it right before it comes out. And good for them. They're not taking people's money. They're not screwing people out of money, which a lot of companies nowadays are doing or did. So I think there's... I'm excited to see the launch eventually. And also we've seen some video footage of the Raza, I guess almost intro, could also be, you know, maybe the DMD. Did you get to see that at all? I did. It was good. I like the art style. I like how they set up the story about these atomic aliens somehow landing on an adventure land and taking it over. So that's how they made the story work, I guess. Yeah, it's very campy, I guess. It's very, like, super... More in, like, kind of in the vein of, like, what was that, Mars Attacks? Where the... Nap, nap, nap, nap! Yeah! That one. Yeah! It kind of reminded me of the video game world of... I think it might have been either Ratchet & Clank or... Yeah, I think Ratchet & Clank. That kind of... That sounds about right. You know, B-movie 50s sort of caricature type thing. But anyway, it's kind of cool. Yeah, it's interesting how they've got... Because of knowing of what I thought I knew about the game and the way that the video plays through and then it gets to the end and it's like... It started off, I'm like, this seems really dumb. and then like, oh, but then that doesn't really matter. Now we're just zombie infested amusement park. You're okay. Cool. I think. I don't know. Maybe. It was just a video that just puts these three concepts together and you go, okay, resolve that. Now let's play some pinball. Yeah, and I hope that it's, because it's a very, very tight line that you have to walk with something like that because if it's that bad in a good way, really campy, stuff like that, but yet it's not funny, then you could really get in trouble with that. I hope that it is funny with the jokes that they try and pull and the humor in the game, which clearly they're going for because it's really hammering through that B-movie theme thing. It kind of looks alright. I kind of, I looked at it and I thought to myself, you know what, maybe Deep Root are onto something here. I don't know, maybe. Yeah, and I wonder if, I mean, I don't know when this video was originally put out into the world, hiddenly, but it must meet, and if the rumors are true that this is going to be their first title, then maybe this is a hint that it's soon-ish? Yeah. I don't know. Because that certainly seems like something you get together when you're close to launch. Correct. Now I want to see the play field. Yeah, of course. We all want to see the play field, because if we'd seen the play field of Magic Girl, and this was part of the trilogy with Raza and Alice from Wonderland, my expectations are it is going to be as feature-rich as Magic Girl. Which is half good. I mean at this point I think that like we mentioned that I'm hoping to see what an actual real full Voltron like magic girl looks like and this one I remember I don't remember seeing really anything on this title but I might have but I've just forgotten it but I remember seeing like the back glass for Alice in Wonderland and it was really cool like the the direction they went with that is completely different than any other version I've ever seen. It was really cool. I was like, yep, I can get behind that version of Someone's Got the Land. That's really neat. Okay. Well, we all sort of just waited with bated breath because I think when they first announced it, there was a lot of information. They were talking about the five days of Deep Root and Robert Mueller was on lots of podcasts and they're speaking pinball and someone's done a tour and all that kind of stuff. So a lot of information early up. And then there was almost like this, which I think they said at the start anyway, was they wanted to just go to ground somewhat and then sort of reveal at a later stage. And that's obviously been delayed. They were meant to be at TPS. So we're desperate for any sort of information. And on Pinside, somebody called Zavadoza. Zavadoza? Zavadoza. Doesn't matter. No, he said, I was at Barry Alice's house two nights ago, and there's no denying this Wonka hype train. Here's a couple of clues, though. J-Pop's, what is it, Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland is the first release, then Barry's game, then Dennis Dordman's. Not a simultaneous release. They're still working out software on Rasa and getting parts for manufacturing. Probably a couple of months away. Then, later on in that thread, he also said, Deep Root Clue of the day, they have 12 whitewoods right now, 12 as all supposed to be done in the next year, and then Robert Mueller popped in and said, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but maybe not share stuff that's inaccurate. That number is too low. Yeah, I remember that second part. I remember seeing that on Twip. The first part is news to me. I didn't know that. That's cool. I think we've all been waiting to know what's happening next, And I think also we're trying to know what is happening with the make-good of the J-pop era as well. Yeah, and I'm surprised that in nowhere... I expected there to be a mention of Magic Girl in there. Yeah. But I guess maybe that that's going to be on the side, or that they're just talking specifically about the new games. Have you seen or played Magic Girl? I've seen it. I have not played it because, well, it doesn't play. And there's no one around here that was silly enough to do that, thankfully. But although we do have one person locally who got screwed out of Predator and Aliens. Okay. Yeah. But the, no, I mean, when that came out, and I mean, it is probably top five most gorgeous machines I've ever seen. I would agree. It is. Absolutely. beautiful and you know and to see what it was supposed to do and see what it actually does is kind of tragic and I feel really bad for those people but at the same time I'm on the as far as the whole J-pop thing I know it sucks and a lot of people don't want him to ever work again but I mean he his heart was in the wrong place he just had no idea how to make pinball I don't think it was spiteful or anything mean-hearted by him. So it's like, I think a little onus needs to be put on the people who gave him money for not having, I hope that the industry and the people have learned that they should not give money for games until they have a game. That's right. I think what you have now is a lot of companies, well, not a lot, but some companies will have a deposit model, not necessarily a pre-order, pay-in-full type model, which is, I guess, the difference is the deposit at least secures the demand. A pre-order funds the whole thing. Yeah, and yeah, more or less, you're funding, you're kick-starting a company. I mean, it's Kickstarter without being a Kickstarter. And, you know, it's... No, and yeah, that's what Jersey Jack does with deposits, and I think that American does the same thing. That's what he does too, man. $500, you know, no one's going to lose their house over that or well, you know, but it's a little different to ask to fund and keep a company open. But I'm looking forward, I would love to see what that game in its full grandeur and what its intent and what it was supposed to be designed to do, if they can get that to do it, that I think would be amazing. I like most of his games, I think that the only downfall on some of his games is code-wise, which is not on him. I think the playfields are great that I've seen outside of that one turd he made with the screen. Wow, yeah. I keep on getting, I keep on, every couple of years I rediscover that he made that game. I'm like, ugh, because I hate that game. There are some telltale signs when you look at it. I think it's the curvature of the ramp. I didn't know that until years later. We're talking about Star Wars Episode I, I'm assuming. And, you know, we know that that story has been well documented in that movie Tilt, the Battle of Slave Pinball. I think the layout's kind of okay. That middle section, obviously, there's not much to do except hit up the middle, but really it's code that's suffering. So it kind of fits into what you're saying anyway. It's like the worst possible... Like, it's like a really just, like, campy version or, like, a bad joke on, like, uh... How was it gone? Stargate? Up the Middle, Up the Middle. So it's literally that game all you're doing is just hitting that middle as much as you can and hope you stay alive. I think what it actually reminds me of nowadays is actually one of the minigames that you put into the multi-morphic PvP system. So I think it's called Cannon Lagoon, where you actually just put this very simple playthrough up the back and the idea is you're shooting ships on the back screen as they go left and right. That's the whole Star Wars game, just like that. Yeah, I haven't had a chance to play those mini-games. I played the original one. I talked a lot with Jerry about all the system. Out of all the things in Pinball that's kind of really made me sad is how that has not just blown up, because I think that it deserves to blow up, because that system is so, like, innovative, and the concept it's trying to get out there, I'm really shocked and disappointed, like, in the pinball community that that hasn't been embraced, because it shoots good. The concept that you can have, it's more or less what it is. it's a pinball console it's a PS4 for pinball more or less you pay a lot of people are like that's way too much to spend on a game well yeah but you're spending that kind of money on a middle version of a Jersey Jack game you know but at the same time you can't then go buy a second game for two grand to change it up and get a different version within that and you don't have A lot of people don't have a lot of room to put a lot of pinball machines, so for them, to be able to put another game under your game is a cool concept. When I got to play it, I thought it was really cool to play. It was really neat, the idea that you can swap out the tops and bottoms to make completely different layouts, and you can design your own game, and you can put it in, and other people are doing that. And it's really cool, and it stinks when there is actual, real, like, really forward-looking innovation that just doesn't get hold. And it's one of those things that a lot of people complain about in pinball. They're like, oh, we want something different. We want different layouts. We want uniqueness. They always say that, but when they get it, they don't want it. Yeah, I had said that before, though. People are like, I want, you know, I want innovation. I want something fresh. I want something new. I want, you know, screens. I want this. But not that. It was like, okay, I get it. Yeah, it's always what it is. Everyone wants a unique layout, and then when they come out, they don't like it, and then it doesn't succeed. So then everyone goes, well, then why are we... I mean, look at all of the unique layouts in the history of pinball. They're all garbage games that nobody wants. Like, look at... Not talking about Orbital One like that. Well, okay, that's like on the so, so, so, so far fringe. But I mean, like, games like, like, and I'm not necessarily saying that they are actually garbage, but that's, like, how they're looked at. Like, Transporter, the rescue. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, that is, there's no other game that's like that. Yeah. That's, like, it's a very, I love that game. Well, I played that at Pimberg last week for the first time. It's the first time I saw it. Yeah, it's a great game. It's good, isn't it? And there's a lot of really weird games that can be great. and it's just people, you know, it's like the hypocrisy in general of the pinball person, that they always say that they don't want this and they want this, but then when they're giving it to them, they just go, not like that, or I wanted something else. And it's like, well, what do you, they can't tell you. And it's like, well, then what, like, this just proves that people shouldn't listen to them. It's like, because they're never happy. Well, I think the problem is that so many people have got so many varied opinions, it's really hard to know what the general consensus is that people want. You know, right now, oh, God. You know, people are saying, like, you know, up until Iron Maiden, everyone was like, Iron Maiden, Iron Maiden, Iron Maiden. The next one people want is Rush, right? I don't even know this group. You don't want to. I'm missing but I okay I wanted to so I actually looked up their Wikipedia page and so they've actually I don't know they've sold millions and millions of records and I'm actually really keen to explore them and I'm saying this and again people are going to sort of be yelling at their phones or whatever they are listening to this on but there was this phase they went through in the 80s where they turned to synthesizers which and I'm all about electronic music so I'm really keen to explore that part, right? But the reason I'm bringing that up is it's like, yeah, okay, bring on a Rush machine. Yeah, you're not going to get that part. But my game is great, right? So give me it, and then it arrives. It's like, but not that. The inverse would be, what happens if they did release this Rush machine and they only played all their synth music? What would the fans say? You know? So because you've got so many different varying opinions, it's really hard to know exactly what the sweet spot is. and the more narrower that sweet spot is, the less reach you have and therefore the less numbers or units you're going to sell. Yeah, exactly. And it just comes out like... And don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who gives a crap about what anyone likes. I don't care. You like what you like. Cool. That's awesome for you. But it's the people who seem to think that everyone needs to think the way they think and like what they like. and it's just like, dude, it's like, cool, you like that, congrats. Now, keep that to yourself and be happy. Like, that's not, like, it's okay to just like something. You don't have to go out into the world and force other people to, like, join your cult. No, I know, but people are so passionately want what they want, they will just yell it and yell it and yell it until they get their way, or if they don't, they will then blame whoever's making these things for not having the foresight to know that this is going to be an absolute hit. Yeah, and enter the Beetlejuice thing, which, I mean, I don't know if you did this on purpose, but it's the perfect segue. But, I mean, the movie was fine. I haven't seen it in 20 years or something like that. and, like, the just flip out that the internet had when, you know, Frenchies shared those, and it was just like, oh my god, you have no idea, this would have been a huge hit, Stern has no idea what they're doing, and, like, it's like, what, uh, okay, like, it's okay, just because you like Beetlejuice, you need to understand that most people don't, and most people don't care about Beetlejuice anymore, like, it's not a thing. So, okay. So when we first heard about the rumour of Betelgeuse a very long time ago, and I had an opinion back then on it, and that was, well, I actually really enjoyed the movie, but I don't know whether it's a movie that really has, you know, stood the test of time, right? But when I saw that concept art for The Backglass, I looked at it and it went beautiful. I know, and maybe it's because I'm a fancy fanboy, Trey Mark. but I kind of looked at it and went okay, I can see visually you could make this into an interesting pin and it kind of did remind me a bit of Monsters where you look at some of the characters and their striking imagery and you think, okay I now know where you could place this on the play field to make this an interesting game so yes, visually I think the movie has probably got some really good assets but again I do look at it and think was it a a movie that had its day but hasn't really had that much of a resurgence over time maybe if they did a remake of it sure yeah which you know there was supposed to be these rumors that they were supposed to they were going to make a sequel which turned out to be completely fan made up right and that was never a thing but the fans made it into this thing where it's making it again right yeah well I mean it's like those things it's like it's like I mean I liked the movie, but I mean, the only thing that matters, though, in that conversation is that people just, they just I don't know why they just can't see the other side and just get past their own fanboyism, but like when George jumps in there and he explains exactly why it didn't happen, like, I don't know, I just can't rationalize how you can see his response and then not go, Nope. Yep. He just pretty much said, he's like, you know, we have, you know, four teams here or whatever. And, you know, this was on the table and we put it up to the group and see if anyone wanted it. Nobody wanted it. No one had a passion to do it. And if your team doesn't have a passion to do it, then it can't be done. And you have to let it go. And it's like, yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, eight years ago or whatever the time was, I remember completely everyone whining and complaining and talking about how, like, oh, you know, everyone, Stern was making people or other companies were making people make games that they didn't want to do and they didn't really care about. No one really cared about, you know, Wizard of, not Wizard of Oz, Wheel of Fortune or CSI or any of those ones. And they had no passion for it. And it's like everyone always said that. And now Stern has gone to the opposite spectrum where their designers are only going to be able to, only want to make and make the games that they love and they care about. and we'll put in that, because, you know, a person who loves something will put, that will become something greater than a person who doesn't care. That should be applauded, and that, like, someone reading that should go, wow, Stern really cares about their games and the themes of their designers, and they really care about their designers and making sure that they enjoy what they're doing, and they make the best products. But that message was completely lost. No, I know. It blew my mind. well that's the whole thing like these people are going to work on these machines for let's say a year 18 months if you're and you know you you would know it in your job and my job if i was a year and a half doing something that i just didn't care about that would sort of make me not want to enjoy coming to work you know what i mean you'd be miserable and what you'd make was would be garbage yep is what that end up would end up being so i just think it's timing i just think it's timing that you've got the group of people in all their teams that are saying, we don't think about Beetlejuice, but you know, they may get new people and all of a sudden you've got this group, three or four people in the collective, 20 to 30 people in the design team that go, actually, we guys up the back, we're here, we actually really like Beetlejuice and would love to do that. You've just got to, it's just got to be timing, you've just got to have the people that want to do it at the time the license comes up. And I'm in a way, I'm looking at it thinking I wonder what could have been because I love the visuals of it now that I've seen it. But I don't know. I think there's a bigger thing here at play than the theme. I think I'm still waiting for the next evolution of Seren Machines. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure because franchise put it out there, and I'm sure someone's probably going to grab it up. but I mean if their current designers they have now don't want to do it and the only way that's going to change is if they hire a new designer and he happens to be a Beelgeuse fan and maybe they'll revisit it. Or it goes to another company like, people are sort of saying it's more in Spooky's wheelhouse, which I would agree it would be. Yeah, definitely but you know Nick, but then you're definitely not going to see that game for another five years or so if that's But you may actually see it because they only need to really sell 500 of them. That's how much their runs are these days. And, you know, I think Stern probably says, you know, we have to sell thousands of them. You know what? It's the state of play of a lot of things. If you think about, you know, movies and the music industry and all that kind of stuff, people are really scared to experiment and to take risks. because there's a lot of capital that goes into development to do this and no one wants a bomb. Yeah, but I honestly don't think that they looked at that theme and said that people won't buy this. I think it really was just nobody wanted to make it. Yeah, okay, fair enough. Because, I mean, I don't love that theme, but I like it, And I have no doubt that there's tons of people that do. So I think it would have sold. I just don't think that any of the designers, when given their choice of who wants to make what, I just don't think that they wanted to. And it's really weird that the people probably who would want the exact same choice themselves are criticizing them for letting their workers have that choice. it's like you would want no less for yourself and I'm sure that I hope the franchise I hope we get to see maybe what the rest of the side art and all the other various things look like and I have no doubt that someone will make it because I do think that it will sell and you just need the person who really wants to do it so not now maybe later is what we're hearing I think it just seems like one of those themes Like you said, it does seem perfect for Spooky. It seems like a theme that they would be all over. So that's probably where it's going to end up being. Maybe they're swapping. The Stern goes, Godzilla, they get Beetlejuice. Yeah. Well, because we don't know. I mean, obviously we know that the art was pitched. We don't know whether they actually did secure the Beetlejuice license. So anyway. Yeah, it's true. We don't know that. If we find out more, we'll... Where's George? You're going to get George back on again, right? I mean, just ask them next week. At some stage, I hope. But, yeah, we'll see. It was interesting. But as you said, it was just kind of interesting to have that exchange happen publicly. And it was kind of refreshing. Refreshing, yeah, exactly. It's just like the third wall or the fourth wall being broken. It's just super cool. And it was funny because, like, I think I friended, I became friends with him, like, a couple days before he did that. And it was just so cool. I was like, wow. You know, and he's coming to Pintastic. So, you know, I get to probably meet him and talk to him about it when he comes up this way. But it's, yeah, it's super cool that they're comfortable enough. And that just tells you how comfortable they are with their decision and what they did. that he was given the okay or whatever to share that art, and then the George just pops in and just tells it like it is. Like it is. Sorry, guys, but this is the reality. It's like, sorry, not sorry, but, you know, it's super cool they're that comfortable. Yeah, again, that's why I said refreshing, because that was very un-Stern-like as far as PR goes. They more sort of will stand behind an official line, but to just come out there and say, here's the reality of it, shutting it down, move it on. That was kind of like, cool, okay, we get a bit of insight. Yeah, a lot of the stuff they do, and I mean, I 100% believe that the leaks and the rumors and all this other thing is done on purpose by them. Do you? They are such master internet manipulators. It's great. The way that they just throw stuff out there and just like, they just throw stuff in the fire and just sit back and go, let's see how this burns. It's masterful. Like, the ones that, like, some of the, I'm trying to think, it was a specific one that they, like, they put something in a very specific place during one of the pictures for their, for, like, in their stern, when they're taking pictures in the factory, they just have, like, a figurine or something that was just left there. It's like, and people are like, oh my god! Well, they had a monster's cabinet, but I think they put, like, maybe, like, a, some, like, there was a Jaws figurine or something. And it was just kind of like, and everyone's like, oh my god, did they let it sneak? It's like, please, they put that there. To F with you. You see one of them on holiday somewhere and they're wearing a Led Zeppelin t-shirt. It's like, oh yeah. Like, he's playing with it. He's walking Jaws hat and like, or like, various other things. It's like, they're so good at trolling. And it's like, the people who are being trolled just don't know it. They just think that they're just like, oh my god, I think we got him. And it's like, nope, nope, they got you, buddy. They got you so good. Yeah, you know exactly what we're doing. It's brilliant. And just think all of that free marketing. They just use us and then use Pinside to just send out their propaganda for free. Well done. Well, so speaking of companies, now I knew of this company. There's a German pinball company. And I think their website is flipper.de, which is German, Deutschland. and I had, a couple of years ago, somebody had sent me a message and linked me to this particular website and back then, they were going to be doing a Playboy machine. This is the same company that had posted somewhere that they were going to do a Playboy machine but nothing's been heard of them since. But now they've actually just, you know, put a post out there showing this very large empty factory saying, made in Germany, here it will start, the production of pinball machines and pinball parts made in Germany. Have you, like, this is kind of weird, because, as I said, I'd heard of this ages ago, and now all of a sudden there's a public announcement about another company making pinball machines? What are they going to do? So, when you mention Playboy, the first thing that comes to my mind is that, which I thought was Highway, that there was a Playboy machine and that someone found the video that had literally been on the internet for years that no one even knew was there. That's right. Is that the same thing, or is that something else? Because I thought that was Highway. Well, I don't know, but I also... I mean, what we know about... Yeah, it was Highway, and somebody had found, like, a digital... like a visual pimple... Digital wayward. Yeah, wayward, that thing. but what we remember is we saw the Angry Birds flyer which was a pitch document so what we don't know is whether they actually did have a Playboy license or whether they got into a verbal agreement but there's a point in time when it becomes an official agreement. All I remember was going to this German site a couple of years ago and there was some mention of them making a Playboy machine so I'm just wondering whether this is the company and that's what they're going to do. It's a very big space. Very early news, almost non-news, but thought I'd mention it because, is there room for another one? We don't even have Deep Root we were talking about before. Do we have room for another company? Well, I mean, first I'm going to throw it out. I thought that, who knows, it probably wouldn't have been executed correctly or any of that stuff, but I thought that that Angry Birds thing looks cool. I saw that when that came out. I'm like, that'd be really neat if that ever got made, because that seems like a really fun, like, kids' ticket machine. But anyway, no, who can know at this point? It seems that the amount of money that people will throw away to buy pinball machines seems to have no bound and no limit. So who knows? I mean, I look at the prices of Jersey Jack games now and just go, wow. Oh, wow. Wait, wait, wait. $12,000 for a collector's edition. Like, Jesus, man. Okay, who's buying these? Are you ready? You ready? You, right? No, I'm not. That collector's edition in Australia is $20,000 Australian dollars. Yeah. See that the way I felt when I was looking into trying to buy a board gaming table from Robert Englunds and trying to go against the power of the pound No not the pound the euro And going, wow, that's an extra thousand dollars just because I'm American. So, yeah, that's brutal. That's what it is. So, I tell you what's going to be interesting. We've already mentioned, I'm just going to say it again. I'm curious, so curious, to just know what is Deep Root. You know, what is it they're going to be? Are they going to be doing these five machines? Are they going to be doing bulk? Is it going to be, you know, palatable to the consumer that they're just going to throw their money and all of a sudden you are taking funds from other companies or you're setting up a brand new stream of money? Yeah, I think, you know, it's going to be interesting because of what we talked about earlier with people's appetite for the new, but their disdain for the new. Yeah. So, because I feel, like, I heard your talk with, um, with, uh, Greg and, uh, Levy last week about the cabinet. So, like, both of them were just kind of like, oh, this is needed, this is kind of stupid. And, you know, when I read that, looked at that document before that, I thought this was really cool. And I was like, wow, like, no one has, you know, in the engineering field myself, I'm like, oh, this is a really neat way to attack this problem. And good for them for attempting this. They said that this is old and they have different... But I mean, when I look at what that cabinet does, I see a lot of cool innovation there and fixes to problems that exist. But you get that kind of reaction where it's like, oh, well, I don't care about that. I just want to, you know... And it's like, well, it's like, yeah, But at the same time, because that's the attitude, you're either going to have... They're going to do something so new and different that it's either going to change the price point, or it's going to be so good in a maintenance way that it's going to change the game, or it could be that, but also too different, where people are just going to reject it for the fact that it's different. Which, that's what I worry about a little, because I think it's going to be very different, and I think that they're going to innovate. Because if you're starting a company from brand new and you just look at pinball and say, and you leave out the fact that this cabinet needs to be this way and this backs box needs to be this way and this is the way that the playfield has to attach to the cabinet. Like, that's where you get ideas like that. Yeah, well, think about Highway, right? So there were two things, two features of it, just by looking at it, that really meant that people couldn't resolve. One was the thick sort of rails on the glass, and the other was the really thin backbox. Now, arguably, they said, well, you need that on the front because you can then lift up the glass. It makes it easier to service. And the backbox, well, you don't need all that space. It's actually just air. We pinball people say, uh-uh-uh-uh-uh. That's tradition, right? Don't mess with tradition. that's what we like and it's going to look so completely different in our collection and I think based on what we saw with the patent for Deep Root they were doing something a little bit different with the cabinet design as well and I just don't want people to you know I don't want it to become a motor dome is that motor dome? oh um like you're thinking like Mad Max type thing well no was it motor dome? no I think it was oh motor was that the one where you picked the different difficulties at the start of the game like that old ballet game No, it was Zachariah became that company. It was like Mr. Flip or something. It was at Puppet. It's the cabinet that has got these really weird flippers that go into the actual machine. Oh, no, that... I know what you're thinking. Yes, it is. Oh, man. The Motor Dome is not that game. But yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. with the actual physical flippers where there's no power to them. It's only flaps that you push yourself. Something like that. Yeah, you're right. It's not motor dome, but it's something like that, isn't it? I'm going to look it up. That's motor dome, which has the thing where at the start of the game you have difficulty settings, but more or less what you're doing is picking how much points you want to score. So there's a definitive correct answer, and if you don't pick that, you're screwed. I remember learning that for the first time you have to pick three or else you're going to lose because if you do exactly the same amount as someone else but they pick three they will crush you like okay that sounds like a great game I wish I could remember this game I remember playing it at Papa the year before and then they bought it as one of the machines it is a motor type game the cabinet design is radically different it's got a little video screen in the back as well. Yeah, anyway. I know exactly what you hit. You hit each light and each light gives you a video mode and the video mode is worth a lot of points. I had to play it at Hedberg the last time I was there. Mr. Game is the company and the game is called Motor Show. Motor Show. Motor Dome. So close. but look at that guys look up Motor Show and the cabinet design and that's oh god I'm looking at it now it's so ugly and that also has one of those weird rule things that if you don't know if you don't know the rule you start out at a huge disadvantage yeah with the skill shot if you don't hit if you don't do the skill shot you're a deep doo doo and it's funny because I talked I remember playing it and I talked to Steve about it because like it's a timed skill shot. So once someone's done, it's like lights. So it's like, you know, you know, green, yellow, red. And if you plunge on green, you get the skill shot. Well, once the person's done, it waits five, 10 seconds and then it does those lights. Right. And then it never does them again. So unless you're ready to go up in the machine, you're going to miss that. But if you know, if you're, you can just take your time to go up there. If you just like, You probably know what this is like. Lord of the Rings. Pump the plunger to just pop the ball up a little. Yeah. To like, in Lord of the Rings, you lock in your skill shot choice. If you just do that, it resets the skill shot. So then you have a chance to hit your green, which is worth, by itself, hitting those three skill shots, can probably win you the game almost. Right, okay. But not knowing that, she was just an inch on that team. It's so ugly to look at. Yeah, but I mean, I don't think they're going to look that different. But it's, yeah, but like you mentioned about the whole... It's the aesthetic that we're used to. As I said, it's this tradition where we're like, we know what a cabinet looks like. You can make it bigger or smaller, but you don't change the dimensions of a backbox and a playfield and a cabinet. Yeah, but I mean, I think that the difference is that those two specific, cases you mentioned are objectively wrong. The playfield as far as the glass, that just feels wrong. It gets uncomfortable. And with the proper materials, you could have that glass be secure and do the same thing without it being so terribly designed like that. And the headbox, I'm no expert, but from what everyone I've heard and most people say is that the head box is where all of the electronics should be because of the vibration from the playfield. So, like, those two specific things, yeah, they were different, but they were also objectively wrong when it came to proper design. So it's like, at the same time, it's like, yeah, they were different, but they weren't different for the sake of being different and still functional. So it wasn't just like, oh, it's different, and it's good, but it's different so I don't like it, because it was different and bad. So it was like a double whammy. but if they had made those changes in the correct way, like if Deep Roop comes up and has the same design for lifting the playfield glass, but it's in a normal form factor, then there's nothing wrong with that at all. Yeah, or if they're headbacks, if everything's like that. But say, I think from the patent when I looked at it, it's just kind of like instead of having a full side paneling around the LCD, it's open to a certain extent. So it's still the same, seemingly still the same size head box, but it's just a little more open air. If it's still functional, is it really going to, if that takes off $1,000 from the game price, are people really going to kick and scream like children that say that, well, it doesn't look the same? It's like, okay, would you like, here, I'll charge you an extra $1,000 to put that back. No. Okay. Well, then. You know what? That's exactly what Highway did, because they said, we're putting the screen in the play field. And people are like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I need the play field at the back. And they're like, okay, we will put a screen in the back there. You just have to pay for it. Yeah. And people, which is complete bull... When you're playing pinball, how often do you lift your head up? No, I know. But we just... In all honesty... Yeah, it was just so useful. But once you realize, oh, I can just keep my head down and still know what's going on? What? So it was actually a really good idea. and, you know, again, like, it's just a matter of getting people to do it and try it and then go, oh, well, okay, fine, I guess this is kind of good. You know, but until you get them kicking and screaming there, it's just kind of like, eh. Yeah, I know. But that was probably one of the few things they did that was, I thought, was a clever idea. Cool. Well, speaking of people kicking and screaming, let's talk about Gulligate. That could mean anything. It does. So it's pinball related. Pinball related. Let's narrow it down somewhat. We've still got a million topics to go through. So I want to talk about the IFPA dollar. Not that I necessarily want to go too much into it, but Dennis Creasel here at the Eclectic Gamers Podcast has put out one of his awesome articles, sort of deep diving into the effect of the dollar. So I think in 2017, I think it was announced, was in 18. So he sort of said, well, you know, a year's gone by. We've got a full year of data. Let's do some analysis to see what the impact is. So I just wanted to mention, if you go to This Week in Pinball, you will see his article. I strongly recommend going there and having a read. But for you that was affected by it, because I don't think we are yet. I don't even think we've got it. I think we were meant to have it this year. It hasn't started. Has it affected your life in any way? That's how long it takes for things to get there, Martin. It's just on a boat. Correct. I mean, from the get-go and when hearing the concept, I completely agreed with what Josh was trying to do, and I thought that it was the right thing to do, and at the very least, it was worth trying. And I don't think that it deserves the just toxicity and the outcry over that, I mean, from the data and from seemingly, you know, the coverage and everything and the way that things have changed when it comes to states, I think that it worked. And I think it's going to continue to work. The fact that you know, it was always having, I mean, the year I went for states it, like, I didn't, I mean, I came in second and the first place person didn't want to go. But I was like, I've never been to Vegas and I would love to do that. But it was really expensive. And that's a lot of money to spend to go and possibly lose in four games. So, you know, and at that point, I mean, you were winning maybe, I don't even remember, $40 or something like that. So it's like, well, and a lot of people weren't showing up because it was a really expensive thing to commit to. and also when that happened you then had to then fly out a month later which of course the way that you know flights have turned into monopolies around here that just means oh you're going to play three times as much as you would if you booked congratulations you know so I understand that they wanted it to become a bigger thing and they wanted to support the players and making it you know financially better for them to make it possible so that people would feel comfortable and feel that they could go represent the state that they want. And getting, no matter the state you're in, I mean, it can be a pretty big, I know looking at the payoffs for like, you know, Washington and stuff like that, it was ridiculous, some of the really big states but like, you know, I mean, Massachusetts I think first place got like 300 something dollars, you know, and hey, that almost pays for your that mostly pays for your plane almost all of a sudden that now now it's an option when before previously you probably would just go there's no chance like we can't afford to do that so it's just like okay well and they can only take the top two so if both of those people have that thought and number three was willing and wanted to go well then it turns into like well now it feels kind of crappy that you know they really wanted to go because they're the third person that are allowed to. And it's like, well, then it feels weird trying to compete in a tournament where if you win, you get X, but then you don't want it. So now you're keeping that from people who might have been willing. So I think that it helped a lot in that sense, that now States is more of a bigger field with more people representing, which is more of what Nationals is supposed to be. and I think it's only going to get better in that and I think that for what his goal was I think that he accomplished what he was trying to do which was trying to make it and give some money back to the people who spend all year playing for this one opportunity. How did you go at Vegas? Well, like the time that you mentioned I just mentioned, I was second again which I seem to be really good at coming in second in states including I lost New Hampshire to my girlfriend like four years ago there's even a commemorative shirt for that which we both have which is great and the trophy's right behind me so I came in second I was planning on going anyways because I love pin masters and the first time I went, like I mentioned, maybe four years ago at this point, going and playing in Pym Masters and seeing that format to me was really game-changing for me because I really wasn't a big fan of golf in the first place, but once I went and played that format, it completely changed the idea of golf to me, and because of that, I created the Pym Masters of New Robert Englunds series, in New Robert Englunds. But with that, because we had their satellite tournaments, so if you win one of the satellite tournaments within the series in New Robert Englunds, you get 50% off your entry into the Big Boy Pym Masters in Vegas or wherever it happens to be held that year. So I won last year one of the satellites, which I got the 50% off, and I ended up winning the entire series. So I'm like, well, I got the 50%. I got to use that. I got to go back to Pinmasters and go back to Vegas. It was Vegas. My girlfriend has never been to Vegas before. So I'm like, well, we should go do that. So we both went and played in the Pinmasters. And the last time I played in Pinmasters, I think I came in sixth. I lost in seven games to Lyman Sheets, which was one of the best pinball experiences ever. Because at that point, I was just like, I did what? I almost beat Lyman Sheets. like that was amazing and the dude is just incredible and he's he's a great guy and just being there and that was really one of my first experiences to just being around all those people and there's so many good people in pinball skill-wise and even better like people so like we went out so we did that and um ironically i had my probably my best performance um in any pinball tournament. I mean, I won B division at Papa, which was really good, but I mean, it wasn't in the same skill threshold as this was. But I came in third in the pin masters event, and on the way there, I beat four world champions. Wow. Which was really, I beat Adam Becker, who was in my first group to qualify, I mean, to advance to the next round, and then I beat Escher, Lefkoff, and Raymond Davidson. And then in the finals, I ended up beating Jim Balsito, which, I mean, it was so fun, and just being able to hang out and play with those guys, it's just, you can't reproduce it. It's thanks because I'm not really in a position to be able to travel like a lot of people do, and I feel like if I could, I'd be even higher than I am now. But the experience of just hanging with those guys, playing with those guys, talking with them, seeing them play, it's just so good. And then after event, we went out to eat with Jim, Carl, and Colin. It was Zach won first and then it was Colin. They were both tied. So I missed the tiebreaker by a stroke, but then it was me and then Jim. and then after the fact we went out and got dinner and it's just, like the pinball community and some of the people are just so amazing and like Jim Belcedo is probably one of the nicest people on the planet he really is isn't he, I've met him a number of times, he's so nice it's just disgusting how awesome he is, he's just so nice he's so cool and so cool to be around and Carl's just as nice and they're all just amazing and that's the first Raymond, they're also down to earth and they're just they're happy to help, they're happy to talk to you about strategies to listen to you talk about, ask them what they did, ask any questions. It's just, it's a great community, and I'm so thankful that I'm part of it, and it's just, I mean, I've met so many good people, and it's like Pinball has become like my second family, and there's so little bad eggs in Pinball, it's just so many good people. There are, but because there's so many good people, you can just spend time with the good people. Exactly, you can just pretend those other ones don't exist, and you can just talk about with all the good people. Yeah, so, yeah, you should come by for, well, I mean, actually, if you're never actually going to be there, but, yeah, for Pinmasters of New Robert Englunds, it's like our third year running it, so it keeps getting bigger. We have three, it's like having a small Pinmasters, like what they have in Vegas, but we do 18 holes in one day and 18 different games. And we have right now we have five states participating this year, so each one has their own, and then at the end of the year, just like the circuit finals, there's standings, and then there'll be a final at the end of the year to crown who the pin master of New Robert Englunds is. Super cool, because the pin master's format, it just killed regular golf for me. Regular golf is just so boring and non-thought-provoking, when it comes to strategy. It's just on golf, I mean, you must have, I don't know how much golf you guys do there, normal golf, but it's just you see a score, you do whatever you were going to do on that game anyway, and you do it until you get the score. Yes. And that's all the amount of thought you put into it, and either you did it or you didn't do it. Whereas, at least in pin masters, you might start off doing that, but then you quickly realize that, oh, maybe this isn't going well, and you look up and you see different thresholds, and you're like, oh, well, I could keep on hitting Sparky, but that's not getting me any points, and if I don't get to Sparky, I get a 10. So, oh, I'm one million away from a 9. Ooh, maybe I'll hit the right ramp and piston. Boom, now I have an 8. So it's like it has more... Yeah, okay, the progression. Yeah, and it's more... It keeps you more involved with the game and gives you more decisions of what... Well, you maybe look at other parts of the game you wouldn't necessarily think of. Yeah, the last golf, ping golf I did play, did have those rules in effect. So I think... And we don't really have that many of the golf or Masters-type formats. I know that Brisbane's still got one. But, yeah, I don't know. It just... I don't know, probably because you need that many machines to be able to do it, like 18 minimum. This is not often that you have... Well, not necessarily. I know, you can do sort of nines and doubles. or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it just, yeah, one of those things. Hmm. All right. So, speaking of lots of machines, what a great segue that one is. Just nailing it at the moment. You've just been, yeah, you're in another level right now. I know. So, there was a video that came out of the Pacific Pinball Museum, which is, I mean, I don't even know where this place is, but I know that this one's near Oakland. and when I was in San Francisco last year, was it? Or this year? I can't remember. It was last year. Yeah, it was last year. That's great. I think it was last year after Pinbird. Yeah, I was very jealous. Yeah, I was in San Francisco and I was like, oh, do I go? Then I went, oh, I don't know much about this Pacific Pinball Museum. It was a bit of a hike to get there. I just thought, you know what, I won't. But there's now a video that's come out of this Pacific Pinball Museum and there are over 1,700 machines in this collection, which is bananas, I'm telling you, Joe. Well, OK, so I was talking to Ryan about it and Ryan said, you should ask Joe this question. How many games in your collection before it becomes too much? And he reckons it's eight. So I'm just going to put it out there that eight and 1,700 are quite different numbers. Yeah, I think that one speaks to sickness and one speaks to, like, I mean, I don't know. Is this a specific person who owns every single one of these games, or is this more of like a... I believe it is just the one guy, and I can't remember his name. I think it's Michael or something. I can't remember what his name is. And how rich do you have to be? Well, it is Michael, Michael Shrice. I just think it's one of those things and it talks about how long ago he started getting into it what I actually really like about it it is true to the word museum in that he has got so many of the oldest of all machines, he's got the modern machines as well, but if you think about 1700 machines and give or take 20% of those being duplicates let's say that you've got 1200 machines, you're going to have nearly one of everything that's ever existed. Well, just on the video that you have in the show notes that I click on, before playing the video, it has a still of looking into the area, and I don't see a single modern game. There are. I know what you mean. It must be in the back where those little lights are, or something. But I can't see it. I'm sure they're there. Right. Well, if you think about, let's say, well, Pimberg or, I don't know, when you've been to Papa, but, you know, Papa, the size of that facility has, you know, 300 machines. This is more than five times that amount. So you may actually have five different halls and they've only just shown one of them. There may actually be, you know, a hall just for DMDs or a hall for some... Well, like this view, like this seems like there's just one, two, three rows of just wood rails. Yeah. And that's double-sided. Yep. So, I mean... It must be just everything. Wow. How do you find these? I mean, I suppose if you have the money to just find it. I imagine even the rarest game, you can just find it if you're willing to pay for it. Well, that's right. He did say that a lot of them have been donated as well. But guys, this video has been doing the rounds on social media. If you go to Fun With Bonus, I believe it's there as well, check it out. He seems like a really super nice guy and not super weird, which is... Weird? Weird. He seems like a normal guy, which is kind of strange to have that many people on the show. But look it up, guys. And if you're in the Bay Area, you know, go and check it out. I wish I had now, but, you know, I'm going back to the US all the time, so hopefully I'll get to be able to do it again. Yeah, it's just I'm skipping through a lot of it, and there's various different shots of... Some of the games look like they literally haven't been touched. Yeah. Like there's so much dust on them, you can't see what games they are. Correct. But it's super cool. I mean, good for him, and it's amazing for pinball. It just means that these games still exist, which is an ongoing battle. There's preservation you've got to think about as well. And he does talk about that in the video, saying, you know, it's kind of weird that every time you're playing these things, you're effectively damaging the machine, but that's part of it. You repair these things and you get them playing as new again, that's all part of it. So, at least he's got all these machines in storage and at some stage they will be either repaired or preserved, you know? Let's rank. He has a hobbit. So there you go. Yeah, I mean, some people might look at him like, oh, you know, this is so selfish and he's keeping all these, I don't care who has these games. I just want the games to exist. As long as someone is keeping care of them, it just means that someday I might be able to play one of these weird rare games that... That's exactly right. And otherwise, you know, all these got leaves that everyone tried to throw away. Well, that's right. But also, and I think it talks about the fact that the pinball was illegal in the US, in particular New York. And at the time, that President LaGuardia, he actually was destroying machines, like throwing them into the river and putting a sledgehammer to them. So, you know what I mean? It's like somebody's gone, no, we've actually put them in this secure vault and don't worry, we've got them. Even though some were destroyed, we've still managed to get a version of one. so yeah and I think I mean I hold it as a badge of pride that I've never seen Tommy because I hate everything about that and what it like symbolizes within pinball and how it's used as like a derogatory thing against us in media coverage but like I think I've seen or I thought I heard that like there's scenes in that movie or that they're just destroying pinball machines or something which is just like no like that's like I remember seeing videos of just destroying wedge heads and throwing pinball machines off buildings and just it's like oh my god like it's so terrible that this happened and it's funny because it's like a lot of the really rare the games that are really expensive like or you just think of like like TX Factor like that's a super expensive game now but there's none of them because it was considered trash for so long and they all get destroyed. And now the people who have them will never, ever, ever let go of them. So those games are essentially gone. And there's a lot of games like that. Gottlieb seemed to have been the biggest victim of games like that that just no one appreciated. And then by the time they did, they had already been disposed of. Like, oops. Well, I don't mind the premier Gottlieb ones. You can trash those all you want, but anything before that, please. Is Hoops premier? Yeah, but I say it because it was when they had the very pointy flippers that were very almost digital, you know, and Hoops was one of their street level games. But for some reason, Hoops is great. But I'm talking about things like, you know, what was it, Cuba Wizard and Nightmare on Elm Street. Oh. but Stargate's in there. Stargate is another one. It's not. It's okay. No, but if that had good flippers on it, like proper flippers, it would be an even better game. You know, barbed wire. And just put them on there. Well, I mean, to be fair, almost all of the games, I think, are garbage or really bad at the most. But minus Stargate. I think Stargate is a really good game. Yeah, you know, everyone says that Stargate is the best, But it still just shoots if you're in me. It works. Well, no, not really. I mean, you shoot the pyramid once, and then after that you shoot the rest of the game. I mean, it's a mode start. Yeah. I mean, so is that really... That's another one of those things that's just kind of like, everyone here shoots the pyramid. It's like, yeah, but if you really think about how often you shoot the pyramid, you shoot the pyramid to start a mode, and then you spend the next couple minutes shooting the mode, and then you have to hit the pyramid one more time. Like, it's not... I have not played that since it came out. I just, I do not see Stargate anywhere here. And I know someone that actually owned one, but I've just, I've never played it since it came out. They're hard to find and, you know, for the same problem, and also they're even harder to find ones that play properly because most of the time those flippers are weak, so you can't hit the side ramp. And there's even a couple which there's been two copies locally which if you shot the left, no, the right chorus, Scoop, which is super important to the game, is that it would pick it up, and then it would come down the right ramp, straight down the middle. It was super awesome. Which we love. Yeah. Surfing Safari. There's another one. Oh, yes. I really like surfing. Yay. I used to play that in Pinmasters of Vermont, and every time, again, there's not many of those, but I enjoy that game. Yeah, I actually quite like it. I love the sound. Yeah. I like the visuals as well Welcome to World of War Yeah What is it? Oh there's one There's one that we have I don't know if it's still here But at a place here Which was Oh you know The Cactus Jacks Oh god Oh my god Fuck that game Oh just that Just It's a polka time Yeah Oh my god Oh my lord And that's all you do You put it in a hole You get multiball And what do you do after that? You put it in a hole And you get multiball And you just get All you hear is It's a Vulcan time! Shut up! Shut up! Oh my god. So bad. I hate that game. It really is. So do I. But, I love, I don't know, maybe this is part of me that loves it because it annoys people. I kind of get a bit of joy out of that. I mean, I like to, whenever someone is near playing that, whenever they get, I yell that out. It's a Vulcan time! And they just start dancing and it's like, I mean, where else do you think of dancing vegetables in, in, like, uh, Western getup. What? And you throw fruit. That's what you do. That's what you do. That's brilliant. I mean, why has that not been reused? I know. Someone needs to do a remake of it for sure. Yeah, I mean, if they can do Black Knight, this one definitely deserves the next one. Whoa. There you go. Cactus, Cactus, uh, Jack's return. Fruit of rage. Fruit of souring. The salary So Next news item Quickly move on From practice checks What a Do we have to? I just want to talk About practice checks I know What is it? I know He knows what time it is I know Hi Hi Stu My friend who's up And playing This game When it does That poker thing That's what he does And he quotes it all the time It's very funny Anyway So Deadpool challenge There's a Deadpool Boom championship Do you know about this? I heard. Yeah. It's the Iron Maiden Challenge, but boom. But boom. So it's an interesting one where effectively it's open to stern army locations and effectively in these events you are trying to set up the machine as similar to others, meaning, first of all, everybody, glass stays on. All right. and the settings three ball play on factory settings or harder. Yeah, it's a clever, it's again Stern is crushing it with everything they do. It's a really clever, the fact that they have the Stern Army program, this is a way to push those programs and get people into those programs even more. It's a brilliant idea and all it costs them is like a play field and some translates. Like, hello. It's like pure profit. you know and the the catchy rolling in from this always catching but it's just it my only concern with it is that if this hopefully it doesn't negatively affect any of the tournaments that these happen to be coinciding with yeah which can definitely happen that happened in one of the local tournaments here where the person decided with the other person they were playing with to play extra balls so they could go for the high score. Right, yeah. So it's just kind of like, ah, so then the rest of us are just sitting around for, you know, so they put up two billion on, it's like, cool, can we play now? Yeah. Like, this round has taken an hour and it's getting late. Well, I've seen some of the scores that people are getting on the last Deadpool Toad Division. You're going to have to get a massively high score on this as well. Oh, did you see that one? I mean, yeah, you're in the same group chat, but the one that Grant put up, come on. Yep. And I think Colin posted one. I'm just like, Jesus, guys. Like, what? Yeah. I see shit like that, and I'm like, I'm not good at pinball. I know. I'm like, I'm never going to get this goal, so I'm not going to try. Thank you. No, it's, yeah. But, I mean, I don't know how long you can stick on a game, especially Deadpool. I mean, Deadpool is, it's not exactly like Star Trek, where it's just like once you're dialed in, the game's over. as long as you never miss then you'll never lose but there's enough in Deadpool where it's impressive to live that long without all the various randomness that's in that game that I love I don't get why people I hit that cross ramp from the walk and it didn't go up it's like okay do it again do it better yeah it did need to be the randomness and that's kind of what I worked out after playing that for a while, is it's not the direct shots that you nail, it's the indirect shots, the rebounds and the bounces that you get that make that a fun game. And George Gomez to be able to come up with a layout that supports that is freaking cool. A unique layout? That's why they made it. We don't need that. No. We want a unique layout, but not that. That I designed, that you get approval from me first. Correct. Because, I mean, I don't know about you, but like when, I mean, most of the ones I've played, 75% of the time it goes up there. But like the times, what I love about the design of that ramp is no matter how hard you hit it, the way it turns, it always seems like it barely made it. Yeah. Like as it turns that corner. Yeah. So every time you're just like, oh, yeah, like, oh, it's just like the satisfaction from hitting that shot because it always feels like you just barely got it. So when you do get it, it's just like, oh, you just feel so good. And that's what you need. If every shot you could nail, well, it'd be The Hobbit. You need to be able to have those moments where, you know, you've got those things that are a little bit difficult. So when you actually shoot them, you're drip-fed a bit of adrenaline that says, oh, I feel good about that because that was a difficult shot. Yeah, that's where, I mean, like some of the most, I mean, look at some of the most satisfying, beloved shots in pinball that are like a ridiculous final draw. Like, other games where it has something that's so ridiculously hard to hit, but yet people have decided that that's okay. Yes, correct. But yet other games, Houdini, that are hard. Oh, I like that. Best co-labs in Gimbal. I haven't heard it yet. Unfortunately, I've had access to one to hear since you've been added to the game. But, you know, that game has tight shots. People just, well, I don't like it because it's too hard. okay, well, it's, I don't know, play better. When you do get the shots in Houdini, you get that sense of satisfaction. And you feel like a god. Like, that alone is worth it. That's worth the price of admission. When something is hard, and then you get it, that accomplishment by itself is super rewarding. Versus, you know, there's nothing against the game, and it's fun, but like, Star Trek, like, I play that game and I feel like I'm the best player in the world. Because I, like, look at all these shots I can hit. It's like, oh, they're super wide and huge and I hope so. I hope you can hit those. So it's like, but like, you know, you go play in, you know, of much harder games like that and I appreciate, I like the contrast. Yeah, I agree. I feel people, you know, it's, again, back to the temple, like, how they'd be like, oh, this play field looks like that play field and that play field looks like that play field. It's like, well, yeah but yet they don't play the same that's exactly right and when they actually are different like Houdini then people oh my god it's so bad it's like well I wish if there was one thing I could delete from the pinball community of why that they care oh so much about complaining about is comparing playfields guys they're all the same fucking stop it everything is the same It can be compared to everything else. Who cares? You can only do so much. So why are we wasting our time comparing them when it doesn't matter? Just play the game. They play completely different. A prime example, and we made the comparison when it came out, was when Guardians of the Galaxy came out. Because everyone was like, oh, well, it's with Metallica. And I said it was with Metallica and Iron Man. But that game now is its own game. regardless of similarities it just feels plays completely differently yeah and I'm sorry that does not shoot anything like a Metallica I owned a Metallica they don't shoot and I still get people who don't want to play it who insist that they hate the game because it's just Metallica and it's like it is not like just having that mindset and going into it like that with that mindset it going to be a terrible experience for you because you already you already decided that going to suck So that exactly what going to happen But it just like these games yeah there not a single play field that you can look at and go that is unique Even Iron Maiden, you can still look at and go, eh, there's a lot of Demoman in that area, and then down this area, it looks like blah blah blah. Like you mentioned with Willy Wonka last week, yeah, there's a lot of Roller Coaster Tycoon in there, and dialed in as a combination of three different smaller games, where he took the toys from all of them and put them in there, and, you know, Tron is the same exact play field as Funhaus, practically. And X-Men is Tron mirrored with an extra shot. It's like, but they're nothing like each other, and they all shoot completely different, and it's like, and we all get pinball to play, guys. Let's just enjoy playing pinball. Like, it's not that big of a deal. Exactly. If I could get people to just stop doing that. Yeah, you're not trying to. Just to put it out there, I appreciate all the words, and, you know, people have listened to it. Everyone's sitting there going, oh, we're not going to change. No, we'll obviously have that now. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Next segue into, well, maybe there's another company that can, you know, maybe innovate when it comes to layout. No? Terrible segue. Let's talk about it. Wow. Doing it so well. What a fall from grace. I know. See, look at what we were talking about, Marty. Contrast. Correct. Contrast. Right? Now people know the difference. Now you appreciate how great those ones were previously. See? Yes. If you're so awesome, then nobody's going to know. It's just going to be the benchmark. Exactly. So what I don't know is whether they're called Pinball Buzz or whether they're called Pinball Adventures. I can't wait to see that. But this is the... I remember seeing this. Yeah, this is the company that... Where were they? I can't even remember where they came out of. Was it like from the pinball company or something? I don't know who it is. Anyway, so we talked about it before. So what they've actually said is that they've given us almost like a release schedule of the pinball machines that they're going to release. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the first one, which apparently is coming out this year, 2019, is called Punny Factory. These names are brilliant. In 2020, we're talking mania, yeah? Because we're going to start with Sushi Mania, follow it up with Ninja Mania. See, the first one is Family Guy, and the second one is Shrek. But one's Sushi, and the other one's Ninja. But both are completely different. Yes. The one has a katana, and the other one has wasabi. Yeah. But maybe you're using the katana to slice up your sushi. Oh, there's some crossover potential here. Dude, you said that on the internet. You're going to get sued. But then in 2021, it's not the first one, it's the second one, but one of my favourite pinball titles ever, just alone in the title, but the first one's called First Class, whatever, I don't care. The second one, coming out in 2021, is called... Is it Jetsiolus again? Canada, eh? If that's not Super Troopers, then I want it to be the second Super Troopers movie. There was a second Super Troopers movie, wasn't there? Yes. Apparently it was Deadpool. fucking amazing. It was a good one. Oh my God. Dude, I, one, A, they taped it in my town. Like, a restaurant down the street. They were there. I noticed it in the movie, but we went to go see it and I remember that was a movie that I watched, I mean, that was so long ago. I think it was in high school at that point, but I remember and then thinking, oh, there's another one? Like, there's no way. Like, there's no way that this could still be good. Like, if I watched that again, I probably wouldn't think it was, but it was amazing. It was better than the first one. all the Canada jokes in that movie. Oh my god. It's just... I want to watch that movie with Jeff Diels. Like, that would be like a bucket list. He could well be the only person that's ever liked it. Starship Troopers, right? No, no, no, no. Super... Oh, did I say Starship? Super Troopers. What's Super Troopers? Oh my lord. Wait a minute. I'm going to send you Super Troopers. I kept thinking Starship Troopers. No, no, no. That one that had a terrible... Yeah, the one with the terrible weird back in and out things that they had. Yeah. Had a cool concept. Terribly executed. And like four extra straight to videos. That. Have you seen that? I've not seen Super Troopers. No. It is a... It's homework. A scout-based movie? No. Or Mounties? State Troopers. State Troopers. Okay. In the second movie, they're Mounties. Right, okay. Trust me. Yeah. If you'd been listening to this podcast, you would know how difficult it's been for Ryan to get me to watch any movie. I know. I'm not sure this one's going to be easier. So the sequel actually came out in 2018? Yeah, it just came out last year. And it was crowdfunded. Oh, no way. Okay. Yeah. They did an Indiegogo campaign to fund it. Okay. All right. It was really, really funny. For all the people out there who've seen Super Troopers, Super Troopers 2 is better than the original. I know that sounds hard to believe, but it is true. I would say it's very easy to believe. Hey, the first one was a very big cult hit. yeah okay but yeah so anyway well done people Buzz that was that was news of the week couple of things social media wise you know social media I watch whatever Steve Ritchie I just Steve Ritchie on social media I mean that should be all I need to say he's like my spirit animal he is isn't he so he's he's crazy so he's just this post that says the beige knight loves everyone, hurts no one. He's compassionate, kind, considerate, sensitive and remembers birthdays and anniversaries. He gives money to those who need it. He has never uttered a crossword. He's a quilter as well as a master of crochet. He enjoys the company of women much more than men. Smiley face. Oh my lord. He needs to actually say that. I need that in a verbal version. I want to hear him say that. Steve who doesn't listen to this podcast but those people that work with him that do please get him to record that that will be our I want that as a voice I want that as a voicemail voicemail opening it's confusing I know but here's the best social media article of the week and that is that Kourtney Kardashian got a Yellow Brick Road Wizard of Oz for her birthday Ah, so that's who can afford that Yep I don't care Just in the show notes I've written It's just good for pinball But see Someone who can appreciate those sparkles Yeah Maybe she doesn't like monkeys Maybe this is the perfect version for her Yeah, she's like I've always wanted this But oh, the monkeys They creep me out So Maybe she's the one that wrote to Jack and said Look Can you change your cabinet design So the monkey doesn't work so I can get one without a monkey. Thank you. Saul. Funny. There's social media. We're right towards the end, guys. One thing is, this week in pinball, what did you do this week in particular in pinball? Actually, I got to play in Pinmasters of Vermont, which was previous Saturday, which was the second tournament in our Pinmasters of New Robert Englunds series that I helped run and came up with here and it was the second tournament in the series and I won I got to the finals and we were tied and we had to play a tiebreaker and we got to play it on Batman because I got to pick it because I was the higher seed at that point and I was able to win on that, so that was super exciting. It's such a good location, great games, and it's a really fun time. So this is Batman 66. Yeah. Is there other Batmans? Are there? Well, I actually played Batman The Dark Knight. I was streaming, and after the stream was over, and I'd seen this Batman The Dark Knight before, and it is a pristine Dark Knight. Absolutely pristine. And I quite like it because I don't mind the layout. The changes they've made, I think, have enhanced it, but I still think it's got a good layout. And I was killing myself because I was two shots away from the wizard mode and I just rumbled it. Oh, man. What is it? There's something, Lucius Fox or something is the big long one you've got to get? Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I'm like, you sat there for that long to get all those gadgets? Yes, correct. I was two shots away from getting the eighth gadget, which would have been Wizard Mode, and I just couldn't convert. I like the layout, but I actually like the rules of the original, but they haven't aged well, so that's why you've got to refresh the layout and have a modern contemporary rule set, I guess. No, and I really loved the first one too. I mean, like you said, it definitely has its problems. I mean, all the modes are the same exact modes. It has some of the worst sound you could ever hear. But I loved the penguin toy. Well, actually, it was Scarecrow in that one. But I love the crane. I think that that is probably my favorite toy in pinball. It drives people crazy, but I love it. I love the risk-reward and how it changes the game. what the other things you have to think about, I think it's one of the funnest toys that they've had, and I'm just really glad that they brought it back for the new one. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad. And the new one is a massive improvement. I think the new one is, I think Batman 66 is probably an all-time, is gonna end up being, like, an all-time top five game. But since you just played Dark Knight a lot, so Dark Knight probably has, I mean, outside of the just terrible voice acting, like, copycats that are in there. I think that it has probably the worst call-out I've ever heard in pinball. Let me know if you've heard this. Because it was the first machine that we had in our house, because we rented it from a friend. So we had it in our house for a while. And during the match sequences, right? So the match sequences, the Batmobile pulls up and then the numbers come out of it. And the terrible Alfred is talking over it. So, I believe that the quote is, he goes, Mr. Wayne, the Batmobile is acting kind of funny, showing numbers on its screen, and it is, like, the worst, like, impression ever, and I remember the first time I heard it, I literally just, like, laughed out loud. I just, like, I was like, what? Oh, jeez. You need to play it some more. it's so bad oh my god it's so cringy and it because the I mean it just doesn't sound anything like Alfred and then just the fact that that's the quote is just awful like yeah it's showing weird numbers on his screen it's cause it's a match sequence in the Batmobile I don't understand why I don't know well congratulations on winning pinmasters that was pretty cool yeah and now I get 50% off of pinmasters next year like I did this year so that's $100 savings because the Pinmasters I believe is going up to $200 entry this year wow okay oh yes that's quite a bit isn't it yeah it's a lot of incentive for the people who are around here who's gonna want to play in these events get to save $100 yeah win one awesome what have I streamed I've streamed Wizard of Oz I finally got my Wizard of Oz so I streamed that and then streamed Lord of the Rings which I've got and it's such a great game It's a great game. It is the best game ever made. It's really good. And I hated it. I hated it for so long until... No, honestly, I just didn't get it. And it wasn't until... I think it probably would have been another year, 18 months ago, I streamed it at Ryan's house and he explained it really well. Ran it to a wall and everything made sense. It just... I kind of just got it and now I freaking love it. But... It has one of the best rules in pinball. it has the best theme integration that's ever been done it has one of the best playfields it's the perfect package they need to vault it they know they do they know they do, everyone would go bananas over a vault and there just must be something that's stopping them from doing it can you just, well I think A, I think it's the fact that it's on Whitestar, which they can't vault it in its current iteration so that means probably it has to be upgraded into an I would assume an LCD system or spike, at which point I'd already talked to a certain programmer about this, and they had said that it would probably be a very easy thing to do of just a straight copy. But, can you just imagine that game with an LCD screen? With similar dots from the movie? Like, I would sell my left foot to my money. Yeah, yeah. It'd be The Hobbit all over again, but this time I know it'd be really good. At least you know the rules and the layout are already there. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'd be making a better adult decision. So last week, so when we recorded the podcast with Josh and Scott, we were sort of an hour and a half into the Buffalo Pimple string. Like, the reveal was still going live when we recorded that episode. and remember there was two machines that were revealed that week, effectively Black Knight and Willy Wonka, and I had money. Money was sitting there going, right, it's going to go on one of these machines. It must be nice. Well, it's actually really quite nice. I've seen your fireplace. Sure. Bloody. So what happened was I watched the Black Knight stream, I watched the Willy Wonka stream, and I didn't buy either. So after I recorded with Scott and Josh, I went out and bought a new car instead. What'd you buy? Oh, mate, that's not important right now. It is. I'm curious. I mean, it's better, but... What I'll tell you, it's another BMW, but this time it's got better ground clearance, so I won't get it stuck in a ditch. That's an upgrade? I didn't realize that that was a side-action feature that maybe BMWs didn't come stock with. Well, considering the history I've had with my car, I think it was better to get a much higher-riding car. But I do thought about it, because it's just funny. It's like, sorry, I'm not going to buy a pinball machine, but I'm going to buy a new car instead. Surprisingly, that's like one of the few things that you could compare to Willy Wonka that would actually be more offensive. The car was changing. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That's the... Anyway. Yeah, I... Yeah, so what do you think about those two games? Well, we're going to come to that. We're going to come to that. In fact, let's do it now. We're going to go to the mailbag and we'll start with this, right? So, look at how about you with your awesome segues now. That's really cool. Oh, shit! Look at you! I'm Marky. So good right there. I know. So this is... So we got an email from Robbie. He writes in quite often. We have really good conversations with him, so thank you again. So he's just said that he's come back from eight hours of the Midwest Gaming Classic. So this email came to us like on the Sunday. We'd record it on the Saturday, so the timing's there. He said, I placed 29th out of 171 in the tournament for qualifying, but too tired to drive back for the hour and a half. Anyway, well done. So anyway, I got in about ten games of Wonka and six of Black Knight. And so here we go. So Wonka. Cheers. I know, right? So, the first impression of the machine riles you with colour and delight. I'm so glad they went with Gene Wilder edition and not Johnny Depp. Too much of his likeness is all over the place. Johnny Depp's the better version. Anyway. What? Shut up. You know that I've said that before. I generally feel like Mr Lawler bought some of his best hits of the game. Skill shot reminds me of Adam's Family. Some other shots remind me of... Rollercoaster Tycoon. Oh, look at you. So... It's over here. Right? and of course you read this email no I can forward it to you just for proof but no it's true anyway I could never say anything as eloquently as this and he said and of course the five inlaying signature at the bottom layout the moments I felt were getting the super lock which is pretty difficult for me it's very satisfying seeing your ball perched way up in the back I got several multi balls and had the playfield bursting with colour slash lights much like a gobstopper I would say it has flow but reminds me most of Red and Ted's roadshow, if it were a standard body. There are moments of pause, but only to orient the player of where the ball is coming out next. Really loved the theme to begin with, and the integration of this feels spot on. I couldn't hear the audio as well, but I heard several great sound effects and the soundtrack music. Lines were always two or three deep, and they had six Wonka machines. Would definitely buy this machine if I could choose only one. A man from Boston came with his daughter, and he had 12 machines, and he's pre-ordered this. So that was impressive. if I knew that man from Boston. What are your thoughts on Wonka? And then we'll talk about what he said about Black Knight. Well, I mean, after being completely honest, I have not seen the stream. I have read the article going over everything on This Week in Pinball. And I've listened to... I kind of agree with a lot of the things you were saying last week. There is a lot of rollercoaster tycoon in this. How dare you compare it to other playthings. I know. I'm just playing the game as the game is being played, man. But, I mean, when other games go, well, this is a lot like Metallica, or wow, this is a lot like Funhaus, at least they're being compared to good games, so I don't know how well that's going to fare for Willy Wonka, because Rollercoaster Tycoon is really bad. That's kind of why I was a bit hesitant to mention it, but it was only because they said to me, would you compare it? It's like, well, I would. I mean I can't unsee the fact that you pointed out that Gene is literally in the same pose everywhere on the game I'm never going to be able to unsee that because it's so true I think that was Josh that said that but I'll take the blame because he's not here to defend himself it's your responsibility I get that so that is kind of distracting honestly and actually that's also the case with all of the assets they're all exactly the same including the kids, no matter where they are but I'm not a huge fan of that now that I've seen it I can't unsee that I mean it's pretty it's like all their games, it's pretty, it's colorful the rules from what I'm reading seem weird, I find it a little ironic there's a lot of Hobbit in this yep there's a lot of Hobbit in this and I'm wondering if the pinball community as a whole is going to notice that and give it as much crap as they gave The Hobbit. But it does seem like it's presented in a much better way in this format, so maybe that was the missing link. But, I mean, it seems cool. There's a lot of different shots all over the place. It's very crammed for a standard body. Hmm. So it makes me wonder how tight some of these shots are. I hope this doesn't have a rogue problem like on X-Men, where it's like, oh yeah, it's strong but we added an extra shot. Yeah, but the shot doesn't really work. So was it worth it? I don't know. But, I mean, it looks... It's hard. I make a point to not really judge games until I've played them. But, I mean, I love the theme. I don't know how... I've said this before when it was all as a rumor. I don't know what the story of the game is. Like, are you trying to kill kids? Is that... Because, I mean, that's like... It's just like disciplining children and punishing them and punishing their parents. Like in the movie, the general theme of it is just like... Yeah, it really is. So it's like, what are you as the pinball player? Are you Willy Wonka? Are you one of the kids? You're clearly not one of the kids because you're playing. So it's like, what is your role in the game? I'm not sure. And how that's actually going to be, you know, is the way that you're doing different scenes. And some of them are from the movie. The other ones seem very generic, which I don't know how, like you mentioned before with video assets, I don't know how that's going to seamlessly go back and forth. But who knows? Who are you in Wizard of Oz? Who are you in The Hobbit? You know, I think, what I'm saying is, I think the parallel is, you're, I don't know, I don't know whether you are like a character, but you're just somebody that interacts and moves the story forward. Yeah. I guess that's kind of where... It's like a choose-your-own-adventure story. You know what's there, but you're the one that keeps the story moving based on what you do. Yeah, but I guess in this case, so that means specifically when you play out these scenes, does that mean you are literally killing the children? Yeah, sure. Most of them are children. Yeah, you're making sure that what's-your-name goes down the thing. Yeah, sure. another one blows up yeah absolutely that's what you do just a couple of extra things about the the report we did last week on Wonka many people mentioned to us that the reason why they got so many downloads was that it was on the front page of Twitch we did know that like the day after but you know we were we were recording this episode midstream so it wasn't apparent at the time so what do you think about the fact that they've changed their model because up until this point they were never they had like one of their pride and joys was the fact that they refused to charge people for like they wouldn't the upper models didn't have anything gameplay difference and that was kind of their thing and now that they've decided to change that well they've done it twice now because obviously Yellow Brick Road they've done at the top end oh yeah and Pretty Bonk they've done at the bottom end I don't know I don't know, but... It's interesting. It is interesting. Kind of going back on their own philosophy, I guess. Yeah, however, you touched on it before, and I was going to even touch on it before, and I haven't said it a number of times before. It's really not that often you see a Jersey Jack machine on location. That's working. Right, right, right, right, right. Right? So they need to tap into the operator market. So maybe this is the way of doing it. And that back mechanism is probably either the hardest to service or breaks down the most. Who knows? I don't know. I'm making stuff up. But to make it more of an operator friendly with $1,000 cheaper for you guys, not for us, then there you go. All of a sudden you've got your operator market and they can get them out on site. Because, as I said, you just don't see Jersey Jacks on site at all. Maybe. I think the biggest problem is what people remember and take with them is that the Jersey Jacks that are on location are in terrible condition. Yeah. I mean, the ones that exist near us, like, two of them just got, there was a Dialed In and a Hobbit that were just in, like, not playable condition, and they were left there. And, like, I think more than any other games, I guess really don't really compare it to the stern. Where sterns, you can drop a stern there, and for the most part, you're not going to have to put a lot of effort into keeping that thing safe. Jersey jacks, you have to keep up on the maintenance on them, because I think that the perfect example was saying that they're like a jaguar or something like that. It's like, yeah, I think, I always like to tell my people, since I've owned one, is that Stern has figured if you have the slider from the left is reliability and then the right is quality. And that Stern has found the perfect balance between those two so that everything is working great. Whereas I think that Jersey Jack is so far into the quality side that it becomes not reliable because a lot of the stuff, if stuff is just off, like I know specifically for The Hobbit, is those heads, which is what happened when the one that I mentioned that was on location I had to deal with this with mine is that when mine when my head started coming a little loose and someone was playing it and they didn't notice that and they kept playing and it broke the head and that head is $40. The little orc head is $40. And the same thing had happened when I went to go play this one on location and I tried to tell the pro, I'm like, hey, you need to shut this off because if you're not, that thing is going to break and it's going to be $40 to fix and it's going to get jammed. But look, they turned it off, didn't care. It broke and it just jammed up the mech and it stayed down. And all four of those trolls, none of them worked going forward because they all had broken and then they were just disabled or unplugged. So it's like, and the dialed in had tons of issues, and I don't think that their games are the kind that fit into what seems to be a very big segment of the operator market, which is they like to just put it there, make money, and never have to go back again. And I don't think that his game, that company's games, you can do that with. Like we have, right down the road, it's the closest I've ever been to pinball. There's three games. There's a Star Wars, there's a Guardians of the Galaxy, and an Aerosmith. The Guardians is on original code. It's group ball. There's no call-outs. Nothing. It is black. But that thing has been played thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times. It still works. No one has ever gone into that thing. No one has updated it. Same thing with Star Wars. Same thing with Aerosmith. They probably don't need to. No, they don't. But they're black, they're dirty, they still work, and they've probably made them a fortune. But they don't, people, all the pinball people in the area have tried to talk to them, hey, did you know that there's code updates? Did you know that if you updated the code, it'd probably make more money? And that people would come play them more? They don't care. Yeah. They bought it outright. It's a giant entertainment complex, similar to like your Dave and Buster's or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like racetracks and all that stuff. So they don't care. No, exactly. So if places like that buy one of these machines, good luck. Like, have fun just leaving a hobbit not touched. Like, they just, over time, one little thing gets out of alignment, and all of a sudden the trolls just blow themselves up. So it's a thing. There actually have been some on location here, but they just haven't lasted, unfortunately. That's the problem with pirates. There's like one or two of them in New Robert Englunds that I know of that are on location, and one of them is in bad condition and another one is just far away and it seems to be one day it's good, one day it's bad, no matter who you talk to. So it's like driving an hour and a half out there to go try out Pirates, even as much as I want to and how I've heard the game is amazing, I can't just roll out there and hope it's working. So I think that that's always the thing. I mean, hopefully. I mean, maybe looking at the play field, that doesn't have seemingly a lot of stuff that can go wrong, except for maybe that mystery machine. And the money comes up. If that... I heard about that. I didn't see it. I saw it. Yeah. Just that little thing. So that falls down the middle, and then that stays there forever, and then the game doesn't earn for a month until the guy decides to come back. So anyway, let's move on to Black Knight then. So what he said was, what he said, It felt like if a testosterone-heavy teenager wanted to build a game that had fire, shots, monster things and weapons of malice. He played both the Pro and the Early Premium and preferred the Pro for shot flow, which is something I've heard. It really did feel more of a heavy metal than Iron Maiden. I got to meet Steve Ritchie there too, and he's such a nice guy and I like how passionate he is still for the game. call that stood out for me as I heard Steve's voice taunting me, felt like I was really battling this bastard of a Black Knight shots felt nice and especially good too, but also the base shot. So what are your thoughts on Black Knight? I can't disagree with those things I mean, again, I haven't played any I watched the beginning of the stream I got to listen to Timmy tell me everything that he was with the game, the rules seemed cool, I like how it's seems a lot more balanced than, you know, the 2K, which I still can't wrap my head around why anyone likes, but it's, I mean, outside of the sound the gameplay is just so terrible. But I hear a lot about the fact how heavy it is to the right flipper, and watching them play and seeing the shots, it does seem that you can hit everything except for one shot from the right flipper, which I don't know how good that's going to end up being in the long run and what that's going to turn into in a competitive environment. But I mean, the shots look cool. That toy is amazing. The sound sounds good. It's hard to hear on the screen, but the music sounds great. It seems that the LCD screen looks amazing. I'm really looking forward to playing it. Again, the people crying that the Pro doesn't have an upper play field. It's like, dude, it's not what the pro is for. They're like, well, that's what I think of Black Knight. It's like, yeah, those people, those aren't the people who are playing these. That's not, most of them don't even know the other previous games exist. I distinctly remember one of those people was me that said that. Was it? Yeah, I just said, I said, it's tradition. It's like what we were saying before about, you know, the fat box shape. It's tradition. you've got two iterations of Black Knight where it has got an upper and lower play field to create one that doesn't I get it I absolutely understand why you need a pro model but that's not Black Knight that's not in the tradition yeah but I think that they I mean they're fulfilling that tradition in the model that's traditionally for the people who care about that tradition absolutely get your premium in your LA I totally get it no I totally understand But again, we sort of said it before, I've been hearing a lot of people saying that they're going for the pro, that they don't think that the upper playfield is all that. Yeah, well, I mean, I can see that, but at the same time, then you might want to start reassessing the original games. I mean, Black Knight, the original, I think is much better than 2K, because I think upper playfield on 2K is useless for the most part. Yeah. Because all you're doing is hitting the left orbit, going up there, getting letters, doing it over and over again. What's the fun in that upper playfield? Well, if you don't think that this new upper playfield is fun, it's kind of the same thing. How can you say that this one sucks but that one was good when they're almost the same? Just one's bigger and one has a transparent bottom. It's kind of the same thing. But I mean, it's different strokes, different folks. It's okay. If you don't like the playfield, then don't get it. It's fine. Everything's great. That's what I mean. You've got a choice, and really, again, it's one of those things, because you've got the premium, effectively. If you say, well, I'm considering a pro because, you know, whatever, but you're also saying that it's not in tradition, I'll say, well, go a premium. It's not that much more expensive than a pro, and you get what you want. Yeah, exactly, and that's, I mean, I'm fine. The pros are what they're going to be, the ones that are going to be beaten to hell, and I don't blame the fact that I'm sure those people don't want to deal with that upper play field. you know so and it's just you know people say like oh well the upper playfield ruins the flow like well yeah by definition there's no playfield upper or lower playfield that doesn't so any of those type of things are going to give you that feeling and people say the same thing about game of thrones where they're like well i much prefer the pro well i much prefer the premium to a great margin i really don't like the pro because of the rule differences that are different between the to. Whereas, you know, so it's like, it's, but it's all works differently for different people. Well, of course I said that I prefer the Pro by a large margin, but I, I actually, I don't know. I mean, I say if I had to buy one, I'd still get the premium or the limited edition because I think it just, it looks better. The, the immersion is better. Um, I think the Pro's a better game, but I'm curious, why is that? Because I think it's got more flow. I think it's got more flow and I like the right ramp shot coming back. It's a very satisfying shot that you lose by going to the premium and LA. So, on that note, but you realize that if you shoot on the premium, if you shoot the right ramp, and then you don't flip, it does the same thing. Well, in a smooth motion. True. But it's got that up there, you're meant to be hitting shots for a reason, so you have to flip. Yeah. But you don't have to. No, I get that, but it's still taking away some of the momentum of the ball so it doesn't feel like you're doing a loop. The sensation's not the same. Yeah, I suppose. My big thing is the wall rule, which I find ruins the pro. I agree. Which I honestly don't understand why they haven't changed that and just made the pro also be the dragon. shot, because I don't think anyone enjoys watching or doing the grind bumpers to get a garbage multiball. That's inconsistent. They should be exactly the same. Yeah, but that right there, that rule, by itself makes me enjoy the premium more, because the pro plays for so much longer just because of that. Yeah. But this is the whole thing, right? this is not binary right exactly this is a non-binary thing who cares what we like just because I like the pro I'm not saying therefore the premium and earlier shit I'm actually saying they're both great there's just one that I prefer over the other whereas people you know this is the old Playstation Sega Wars right Sony Sega Wars where it's like well I've had to fork out a lot of money on this one thing therefore I'm going to defend it to my death because I've invested a lot of money because if not, it makes me less of a person for doing it. Correct, right? It's actually okay to like all things but just have varying degrees of likability. That's the lesson. What do you think? Yeah, and people need to just, if someone doesn't, you say, cool, that's awesome for you. That's it. Who cares? Cool, it's awesome you like that. I don't need to like that. It's fine. That's okay. If the world learned that lesson, we'd all get along with each other way more. Correct. Oh, what a way to end this show with a bit of positivity about the world. Which was a backhand. You never mentioned what you liked about Black Knight or what you thought. Oh, I mentioned it. I've already mentioned it. But I said... That's me. I said... It's completely different. You need that context. That's the personal approach. I... I... I want to play it. I want it to feel like it's a different experience. I was hoping it would be. I was hoping that what I would see would just be very different. And what I got was a stern with a Black Knight theme. Like, I know obviously how basic that sounds, but I don't know. I just wanted some of those two things to be greater than the individual components. yeah I'm curious and see this brings another good segue like what that is to you like what would what would need to be different to make it be completely not like like you mentioned and this is exactly what you're saying I do not know but I want to be surprised but I don't want to be surprised in a bad way right you'll know it when you see it yes I'll know it when I see it and when I see it it'll get my money. That's it. That doesn't mean Black Knight's a terrible game. It just means it didn't just grab me enough to go, yep, here's my Insta Buy. I did actually have one on pre-order. They rang through to get a deposit. I said, I just need to wait to see the reveal. And when I saw the reveal, I went, huh, you know what? I will get to play this game. I don't need to have it at home. That was the only difference. Smart decision. Yeah. even if you love something you really should play it first that's and we don't have that luxury when it comes to LEs because they yeah I know so yeah I don't think anyone really has I don't think we do but yeah they do play it it's if you I mean this is like Maiden or anything you play it and you go wow I really like that I would like an LE too bad you need to make that decision before you even know what it is and it's like that's a and for the most part it's sight unseen because these days when the just when the title gets announced everyone puts in their expressions of interest. So unless you tell them immediately, well, I know for sure that it's a black knight. Put me down. You'll miss out. Yeah, and I've never been in that thing, but I've heard about that, and that sucks. Because if you don't have that, there's no path for you to just be like, oh my god, I had no idea, and be surprised by something. You'd be like, yeah, well guess what? That's the thing about where, like when they announce it, it's like, yeah, we're announcing these Iliads, but they're really not available. It's like, oh, well, but You just said they could have an LE. Why can't I have an LE? Well, I will say then, therefore, in the defense of Jersey Jack of previous, where they would announce a machine and then, you know, six, twelve months later, deliver it, at least, at least you got to play a prototype machine and then make a decision on whether you wanted to buy that machine. True. But they also have the thing, and I don't know if you were facing the same, but what kind of Hobbit did you have? I had the Smaug edition. Yeah, so I bet you you had the same thoughts that I did is when you purchased that, is that you looked back at Wizard of Oz and you said, I swear to God, if this is the Emerald edition and then they come out with the Ruby edition, which is better than my Emerald edition, and then thankfully they announced the Black Arrow edition and I said, I'm good. Safe. my version is still the best version I was super worried about that though when I purchased it that this was going to be another Wizard of Oz where you thought you had the