Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

#20 - Deeproot NDA and Pinbar Thoughts

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·46m 17s·analyzed·Sep 23, 2020
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.039

TL;DR

Deep Root Pinbar software is the star; technical issues killed reveal, signaling deeper questions about pinball's future.

Summary

Host analyzes the Deep Root Pinball NDA situation and cancelled reveal, concluding the focus group-style VIP tour revealed that Pinbar software—not the physical game—is Deep Root's core innovation. Technical glitches with Pinbar forced the reveal cancellation. The host speculates Pinbar represents a fundamental shift in pinball toward customizable rulesets, online connectivity, and a more approachable experience, while raising questions about whether the feature's lockdown bar placement and touch-screen interactivity are practical for real gameplay.

Key Claims

  • Deep Root VIPs (Kerry Hardy, Chris Chandler, Colin McAlpine, and others) were functioning as a focus group, not media, signed to NDAs that restricted their public feedback

    high confidence · Host explicitly analyzes the distinction between 'VIPs' vs 'media' labels and confirms Colin McAlpine told him 'I have an NDA I can't talk about'

  • The entire reveal cancellation was due to technical glitches with Pinbar software, not the Raza game prototype itself

    high confidence · Direct quote from This Week in Pinball: 'due to technical issues that Raza was experiencing, the pin bar interaction was glitchy'

  • Robert Mueller stated Deep Root has nearly 200 planned innovations and would require competitors five years and tens of millions to catch up unless they copy

    high confidence · Host cites direct screenshot quote from year-old This Week in Pinball interview: 'it would take at least five years and tens of millions in capital'

  • Pinbar is the core of Deep Root's business strategy, not the physical games or individual themes like Raza or Food Truck

    medium confidence · Host's analysis: 'They're selling this whole package around the software...You're not building a company around Raza...you're not building a company around the food truck'

  • Deep Root has not shown factory production pictures or manufacturing setup, unlike competitors Stern, Jersey Jack, Spooky, and American Pinball

    high confidence · Host states: 'there's been no pictures of factory production, nothing of that sort. If you go on Facebook and you look up American Pinball, Stern, Jersey Jack, Spooky...what they have in common...is that they show how they produce pinball. Deep Root has not done that yet.'

  • Pinbar software could enable DLC content, custom rulesets, and seamless online updates—innovations not previously done in pinball

    medium confidence · Host interprets Deep Root's statement: 'unlimited ways to add new content on the fly and seamlessly change the digital rules of a physical game. This has my attention.'

  • The Pinbar lockdown bar placement feels unnatural for typical pinball player eye movement and hand positioning

Notable Quotes

  • “If they were media, I would feel like they would actually have no place at all to give feedback that would directly affect how Deep Root is going to do the reveal. To me, all they would do is report, report the facts.”

    Host (Marv Loco) @ ~7:00 — Central thesis distinguishing focus group vs media role and explaining why VIP feedback influenced reveal cancellation

  • “it would take at least five years and tens of millions in capital for other manufacturers to catch up with nearly 200 innovations we are planning at launch, unless they chose to flat-out copy what we are doing.”

    Robert Mueller (Deep Root Pinball owner), via This Week in Pinball archive @ Referenced from year-old interview — Reveals Robert Mueller's confidence in Deep Root's innovation advantage and licensing strategy

  • “Pin bar is everything...that is the star of the entire shebang...Deep Root's whole company is all in on software”

    Host (Marv Loco) @ ~16:00 — Host's core analytical conclusion about why the reveal was cancelled and what Deep Root is truly betting on

  • “imagine this for a second the implications of what they're saying that you're at a high level tournament and it comes down to not who is flipping the best, not who is hitting the shots the best, but who can play a mini game on a touchscreen the best. I'm not a fan of that.”

    Host (Marv Loco) @ ~27:00 — Raises concern about Pinbar's competitive implications for tournament pinball

  • “I really wonder though if that screen is going to be functional enough if it's not going to be too far off base in terms of how we view pinball, how we look at pinball...when you're actually at the game, your hands are on the flippers...is it going to be too weird?”

    Host (Marv Loco) @ ~25:00 — Expresses practical design concerns about Pinbar's ergonomic viability

  • “I know that all of us see this from a rosa point of view that we want to see what rosa looks like...but really going back and analyzing all this, I really do think Penbar, that software is the star of everything. And once that went down, the whole ship went down with it.”

    Host (Marv Loco) — Confirms host's pivot from assuming game focus to software-centric analysis

Entities

Deep Root PinballcompanyPinbarproductRobert MuellerpersonKerry HardypersonColin McAlpinepersonChris ChandlerpersonLauren GraypersonCrystal Gimnichperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root's manufacturing readiness questionable; no factory transparency compared to competitors; unclear if production capacity exists for stated pipeline of 13-15 games

    medium · Host: 'there's been no pictures of factory production, nothing of that sort...Deep Root has not done that yet...We don't know if those factories are set up...Manufacturing is difficult...astronomical...time suck, the money'

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball cancelled official reveal after VIP focus group identified technical failures with Pinbar software; no factory production transparency shown despite manufacturer status

    high · Host confirms This Week in Pinball report: 'due to technical issues that Raza was experiencing, the pin bar interaction was glitchy' and notes Deep Root has never shown factory/manufacturing photos unlike competitors

  • ?

    event_signal: Stern Pinball holding inaugural Heads Up Invitational tournament on TMNT with pre-taped premiere broadcast on YouTube, Twitch, and Facebook; strategic ecosystem content play by manufacturer

    high · Host: 'Stern Pinball on their YouTube channel actually has a premiere set for later tonight at 6 p.m....also be showing...on Twitch...Facebook...This is an excellent move by Stern...they are starting to really tap into their ecosystem'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Host expresses skepticism about Pinbar's touch-screen interactivity during video modes, viewing it as contrary to traditional flipper-based gameplay; concerns about tournament implications if mini-games replace physical skill

    medium · Host: 'I want to play pinball even during a video mode...I don't want to play what feels like a mobile game...imagine...at a tournament...it comes down to...who can play a mini game on a touchscreen the best. I'm not a fan of that.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.139

0:00
All right, welcome back, everybody, to another episode of A Pinball Podcast. I really appreciate you guys being here today, and we've got a lot of ground to cover. I'm going to kind of go in on this without any notes or anything whatsoever, and I'm just going to generally talk a little bit about the Stern Invitational that's going on later tonight. It's September 23rd as of this podcast, and it'll be later this evening that they'll have that. We'll also talk about Deep Root Pinball as well as the reveal has come and gone over the past 48 hours. And there's a lot of information to go over. Also, later tonight, if you happen to be watching this today, again, September 23rd, 2020, I will be live streaming later tonight on my YouTube channel at Marv Loco. I'll be doing that every single Wednesday night at 9 p.m. U.S. Central Standard Time. And tonight we'll really go in deep about Deep Root. I feel like this could easily turn into two to three straight hours of trying to figure out and analyze everything because there's so many facets to this whole thing. But first, let's go ahead and just talk about Stern just real quick. They are doing their Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Stern Heads Up Pinball Invitational, and they even call it their inaugural. So that indicates to me that they plan on doing a lot more of this in the future. That is really cool. It seems based off the promo. I don't know why I didn't see this ahead of time, but it seems like this is already pre-taped. And that much is obvious when I go to YouTube and I see that Stern Pinball on their YouTube channel actually has a premiere set for later tonight at 6 p.m. U.S. Central Standard Time. So that will also be showing at the same time over on Twitch, on Deadflipstream, on Facebook, under the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Facebook page, and also on Stern's Facebook page, too, I believe. I thought I saw that somewhere. I don't see it on the actual press release, but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere else. But either way, this is an excellent move by Stern. The fact that they are putting out content and it seems like they are going to start really tapping into their ecosystem. And something like that, if you guys notice the views that they get on their videos, on their Facebook page, some of them get a lot. Now, the way that views are read or taken in data-wise on Facebook, they are a little bit different than YouTube, I think. Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure that multiple views can be counted with the same person, whereas YouTube doesn't necessarily do that. So I noticed that I think it was the last Avengers trailer that they put out. It had something like 145,000 or 146,000 total views as of yesterday. So I'm very excited to see that they are starting to tap into those ecosystems. And I think it'll serve them well. I think it really will. And I'm going to tune in later tonight to see how the stream or how the premiere video on YouTube is going. Because I'm curious to see how many people tune in for it. Now, granted, it is a Wednesday at 6. Not as many people will be around. But, you know, I think it's going to be an interesting thing. Now, I'm not sure who all the participants are. I know it's listed around here somewhere. I apologize for not being completely prepared for that. But we do know that Raymond Davidson, Keith Elwin, and Escher Lefkoff is in it. And I think Nick Zendejas is in it also. Nick, I hope I pronounced your name, your last name right. But I know that obviously all four of them are outstanding pinball players. And there's four women that are involved too. And I apologize. I do not have the list directly in front of me. But I know Snow is one of them. And I want to say, gosh, the other three. I'm just drawing a total blank. I thought it was going to be all here on the press release, and it's not here. It just says eight players as they battle their way. So, okay, that's on me for not being prepared. Either way, good luck to everybody tonight. Good luck going up against the monster known as Escher Levkoff. He's my favorite to win. Now, I told Raymond the other day I got $10 on you to win just because I'm just going to cheer on Ray because I got good odds on him, but I got the feeling Escher's going to take this down. He's a whole entire monster to take on. So good luck to everybody in that. I hope it all goes smooth and I'm excited to watch it. All right, so the star of today, Deep Root Pinball. Now, if you guys are listening to this, also I've already discussed this on, as of my recording of this podcast, I don't think this podcast has been released yet. I taped it just last night with Jeff and Marty on their pinball podcast, Final Round, over on the TPM network. And we talked about Deep Root for a long time. And, you know, to be honest with you, I went back and forth. And I talked to several other podcasters, and I was trying to figure out back and forth whether or not I even wanted to talk about this. There's so many details that are coming out. And I decided to kind of hold off and wait and see what all comes out. And I've, truthfully, I've gone back and forth on whether to even talk about this or not. And the way that I decided to approach this, I'm going to talk about it today during this podcast. And I'll talk about tonight during my live stream. But other than that, I don't plan on covering this anymore. Just because with nothing coming out, I don't know what else there really is to talk about besides the ideas that they have. And quite simply put, that's all it is right now. But again, there's a lot to unpack here. So let's go ahead and just start off from the top. And again, this legitimately, I feel like this would turn into a two or three hour podcast. So I'm going to try to really, really keep it all down to the nitty gritty stuff. If it doesn't seem like I'm covering too much, I guarantee you there's plenty of other podcasts out there. Everybody else is talking about it. And I'm sure that people go into even more detail about it. But again, tonight, live stream, I'll go into as much detail as possible that will really break down what they said on this week in pinball.

medium confidence · Host's personal opinion: 'To me, it looks weird...I've never once looked down at the lock bar while playing. It doesn't feel natural...I like working from bottom up.'

@ ~19:00

  • “Manufacturing is difficult. It's easy to come up with a concept for a product. It's one thing to make one to three products that are prototypes. It's a whole other ballgame to begin to try to make 50, 100 or 1,000 of that same product.”

    Host (Marv Loco) @ ~20:00 — Contextualizes manufacturing skepticism and why Deep Root's lack of factory transparency is concerning

  • “I think the full intention is they're selling this whole package around the software. I don't think they're selling it around the pin box or whatever it's called. You're not building a company around that. You're not building a company around Raza.”

    Host (Marv Loco) @ ~16:30 — Reiterates core theory that software, not physical games, is Deep Root's real product

    • Jeff Patterson
    person
    Steve Bowdenperson
    Razagame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Escher Lefkoffperson
    Raymond Davidsonperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Nick Zendejasperson
    Marv Locoperson
    Jeffperson
    Martyperson
    This Week in Pinballorganization
    American Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Ninja Turtles LEproduct
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pinbar lockdown bar screen placement raises ergonomic concerns; host questions whether looking down at action button during play is natural, citing preference for bottom-up visual approach and uncertainty about child player visibility

    medium · Host: 'It looks weird...I've never once looked down at the lock bar while playing...doesn't feel natural...I like working from bottom up' and 'If you have a kid playing this game, how does that affect them being able to see the flippers?'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinbar appears designed primarily for home customer base rather than location/bar play; host notes logistical concerns with touch screens around alcohol and spillage risk

    medium · Host: 'I also believe with this pin bar thing, the intent is to really go hard at the home customer base...I don't see this working well at all in bars...drunk people...drinks...set down stuff on top there. That will set down stuff on top there. I could see it being a logistical nightmare.'

  • ?

    community_signal: VIP tour group functioned as focus group (not media) under NDA, providing gating feedback that influenced reveal timing; controlled content release strategy limiting transparent community information

    high · Host's distinction: 'a focus group will sign a non-disclosure agreement...a focus group will give feedback on a product that has yet to come to market...not give those opinions publicly' and Kerry Hardy video 'tiptoeing around things, which is understandable when you have legal obligations'

  • ?

    community_signal: Host making deliberate decision to limit Deep Root coverage to single podcast episode and live stream; concerned about amplifying speculative coverage without substantive product confirmation

    high · Host: 'I decided to kind of hold off and wait and see what all comes out...I've gone back and forth on whether to even talk about this...I don't plan on covering this anymore. Just because with nothing coming out, I don't know what else there really is to talk about besides the ideas that they have.'

  • ?

    announcement: Pinbar revealed as major innovation featuring customizable rulesets, online connectivity, DLC potential, remote diagnostics, and multi-touch interface on lockdown bar; represents fundamental shift in pinball design philosophy

    high · This Week in Pinball report details: 'unlimited ways to add new content on the fly and seamlessly change the digital rules,' 'remote management and video chats,' 'role-based settings profiles'; host confirms screenshots shown by Steve Bowden

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root appears focused entirely on software innovation (Pinbar) rather than individual game themes; Robert Mueller's statement about 200 planned innovations suggests licensing strategy may be primary revenue model

    medium · Host's analysis: 'They're selling this whole package around the software...You're not building a company around Raza...the whole shebang is all about pin bar' and Mueller's quote: 'we will show off at launch...all of the DeepRoot package...happy to share and license some or all'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Pinbar software enables ruleset customization and DLC content delivery—innovations not previously implemented in pinball; host identifies potential for user-created rulesets and seamless online updates

    high · Host identifies two implications: '(1) you can either take a game and come up with your own customized rule set...Or (2) ...somebody could make their own rule set and then share it...Other people that also are on the same platform. That is innovation that hasn't been done before.'

    • 6:08
    All right, so moving forward, we knew that there was several pinball personalities that went to take a tour at Deep Root this past weekend. And so that includes Kerry Hardy, Chris Chandler, Colin McAlpine, Jeff Patterson, Crystal Gimnich. I totally messed up that name. I'm positive, Crystal. I apologize. And then Lauren Gray. I know a few of these people, others I've never met, but I'm aware of the existence of whatever content that they're putting out.
    6:37
    And they were brought in this past weekend. And what I'm curious of, they were listed as VIPs. I heard some people label them pinball media. I looked everywhere, and I could not find any instance where Deep Root referred to them in that way. And that's an important part, whether or not they refer to them as pinball media. Now, I'm not saying they didn't do that. I just, I could not find it anywhere. And I looked everywhere. I did notice that they listed them as VIPs. And here's why that's really important. As we all know, the details that came out that Deep Root did not reveal anything on Monday, which was the 21st. That's when they were supposed to do some type of reveal of whatever it was that they had going on. And it came out that basically things that happened over the weekend were viewed obviously in a negative light. And the people that went down there ended up letting them know, hey, you can't, you know, don't put this out. They advised not to put it out. And here's where I've been going back and forth on. And this is a very important distinction that doorbell. Monica, you got to go get that. I'm not going to edit that out. We got real life going on. Anyway, so I appreciate it, sweetie. Love you. That's my wife, by the way. She's working from home. At least supposed to be. She's technically sitting down on the couch playing Animal Crossing, but I'm not going to say anything about that. Yeah, your lunch break. Exactly. All right, so this is why it's a very important distinction.
    8:13
    Again, I did not see anywhere that Deep Root called them media. And the reason why this is very important, if they were media, I would feel like they would actually have no place at all to give feedback that would directly affect how Deep Root is going to do the reveal. To me, all they would do is report, report the facts.
    8:38
    Now, we do know that everybody that went down there signed an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement. I can confirm 100% I have not had any correspondence with anybody that went down there except for asking Colin like two or three weeks ago, like, do you think they're going to stream it? And all he said was, I have an NDA I can't talk about. And I said, cool, totally cool. So that's the only thing I ever heard about. I haven't talked to anybody else about this. So anything that I say, it's just directly off what I know on here. and so that's why I think that's very important if they are listed as media then they would have really no place to let Deep Root know that hey this isn't ready for reveal the functionality that it seems like to me that they acted on was that of a focus group now a focus group will sign a non-disclosure agreement a focus group will give feedback on a product that has yet to come to market. A focus group will give you the opinions, whether it's positive or negative, and they won't give those opinions publicly. And those are all key elements that are going on currently. Like all of that is happening. And that's why I think that's important to look at it from that point of view that I know they're not called a focus group, but they certainly are functioning as a focus group. All right. Does that all make sense? Hopefully it does. Again, that's just the way it seems like to me that they're functioning.
    10:18
    And so we can fast forward a little bit that, you know, anything that you hear them talk about too, and this is the concerning part to me as well. Anything that you hear them talk about, it's only things that they are released from the NDA to be able to talk about. In theory, what happens, and I've had to deal with these types of agreements before, really who it benefits is the company or the entity that is drafting this. It does not benefit the people that are signing this. And this seems like one of those situations to where somebody coined this, and I feel like that this really does make sense. It's almost like a issue of seduction of access to be able to sign an NDA and see what's behind the curtain, but not be able to give true opinions on it publicly, which again is fine. That's totally fine. If they are functioning as a focus group, if that's the intent, then it makes sense. So anybody that's coming out that says well they you know they might be compromised They might be shilling They I seen all that thrown around and I just like no no no let just wait let just wait If they are focus group intent then that what it is Now granted it wasn said that way They were just called VIPs So I could see how it's a little bit confusing as to what type of information is coming out.
    11:50
    And that's kind of what we're wrapping around right now. That's what we're all trying to figure out right now. What are the things that they actually know that they have firm opinions on that they can relay to us? Now, unfortunately, it's more than likely we won't ever hear that. I mean, Kerry Hardy, he put out a video that was about 30 minutes long, and you could tell the way he was talking, he was very much tiptoeing around things, which is understandable when you have legal obligations, that's what happens. That's what happens. And thus, anything that happens that we're reading, we're reading controlled content. This Week in Pinball is sponsored by Deep Root. Fine. But again, it's all controlled content that is coming out. We're seeing exactly what Deep Root wants us to see, which technically speaking, that's the way it should be. If a company is running their company properly, they want to emphasize the great things about it. So they are showing control in that sense. But we do know too that obviously, and again, there's so much going on here. There's so much to unpack. I know we're nearly 13, 15 minutes into this and I'm just now getting to this part. So again, bear with me here. There's a lot to unpack. You might need to stop this and go grab a beer and then we'll keep talking about it. but the way that I understood it, reading through this week in Pinball, that one of the main reasons why, and this is direct from it, I'm reading direct from it, it says the tour group saw some of the features of the pin bar, which is a big thing that they have going on, pin bar, keep that in mind. But due to technical issues that Raza was experiencing, the pin bar interaction was glitchy. Steve Bowden showed many screenshots of planned features and displays, and it looks like this could be an incredible new feature.
    13:45
    All right, so what that indicates to me, the sole reason that all of this was canceled was because of the pin bar.
    13:59
    Thus, I have to draw the conclusion because none of us have heard of pin bar. I don't recall any of that leaking out. I know we heard of the hammer tested play field and I've been on record to say I don't really care about that. The pin bar stuff, I kind of do care about. That has my attention, which makes me wonder, because that software was showing technical issues, and it was glitchy, and that was directly their words that This Week in Pinball is saying. Again, that's what's coming out. That makes me think that that is actually the star of the entire shebang. That is exactly, that is Deep Root. That pin bar is everything. because that really seemed like that was something that they were going all in on to reveal, that it all had to do with the pin bar, because they could have easily shown the game, like just show the game, show how it shoots, but obviously, functionality-wise, they need that to work for the actual pin itself to work.
    15:03
    And so that's, I mean, it's interesting. To me, it is interesting when you look up and down of what the features are, And I'm not going to go over them all on a podcast just because it's very hard to really realize what all is happening because there's so much. There is so much. And it makes me wonder. And I've kind of gone over this theory a little bit in my head, trying to put things together. And one of the things is, is I remember this was about a year ago. That was also on this week in pinball where Robert did an interview. And in this interview, let me bring it up just real quick. He actually said, let me find the picture here. I know it's right here. I just took a screenshot of it. Come on. Where are you at? Okay.
    16:01
    and I'm going to find it. Okay, here it is. Here we go.
    16:06
    All right. Twip says, I'm confused about your statement when it says, other pinball manufacturers interested in licensing the, I can't pronounce that word, the Deep Root Package of Innovation should email sales at deeprootpinball.com.
    16:21
    And Robert says, and I quote, this is directly from there, it would take at least five years and tens of millions in capital for other manufacturers to catch up with nearly 200 innovations we are planning at launch, unless they chose to flat-out copy what we are doing. We are more than happy to share and license some or all of the DeepRoot package we will show off at launch.
    16:48
    That's the key phrase right there, like all that. That's the key phrase. So it makes me wonder, especially in the follow-up question to that, to where he was asked again about who would he share the innovations with and all that. And Robert says, I would rather not discuss legal strategies. I just hope that wouldn't happen. As for your second question, yes, if Stern came asking, I would listen. Third, JJP, Spooky, AP, Cosmic, et cetera, but not P3. Jerry let that boat sell years ago. That's a whole other thing to unpack. But these words are important. it leads me to believe they the whole company is all in on software i know that all of us see this from a rosa point of view that we want to see what rosa looks like we because we haven't even heard about gameplay really from it like how did it shoot and i even asked that same question uh yesterday on the podcast that i taped with jeff and marty but really oh like really going back and analyzing all this, I really do think Penbar, that software is the star of everything. And once that went down, the whole ship went down with it. Like we don't, this is no longer about a right ramp that is makeable or not makeable. Because Raza is obviously just one pen in what? Like 13, 14, 15 pens that they announced total. They literally announced all these different original themes and some themes that are coming. And so it really makes me think that that's what's happening. It's the software. It's all about the software. And yeah, they got some other innovations that I think has been around or has been floating around before. You know, when we talk about the pin armor stuff that they have with the hammer test, like how the glass raises up. I don't know if anybody else has tried to do that before. I have no idea. I haven't looked into it enough. But, you know, it just, it comes down to what is the functionality of this pin bar. And I'm wondering if the end game, the end game is the software and the end game is making it to where this, they want to present this software as being completely workable. So reports are saying that we're hearing that, and again, I don't think that this is even verifiable unless somebody from inside Deep Root confirms this, that there's nothing on the line. There's been no pictures of factory production, nothing of that sort. If you go on Facebook and you look up American Pinball, Stern, Jersey Jack, Spooky, all those companies, what they have in common besides producing pinball is that they show how they produce pinball. Deep Root has not done that yet. We don't know if those factories are set up or that factory is set up because manufacturing is difficult. It's easy to come up with a concept for a product. It's one thing to make one to three products that are prototypes It's a whole other ballgame To begin to try to make 50, 100 or 1,000 of that same product Especially when it has so many moving parts such as pinball does I mean you really have to get your line down You have to get people trained up It's the time suck, the money, it's astronomical If you've never seen manufacturing or really thought about it or understand it Even on an elementary level, it would blow your mind how difficult it really is to do. There's a reason why a lot of things get outsourced. There's a reason for that.
    20:30
    So circling back around here, it makes me wonder, is this all about the software getting farmed out to other companies?
    20:41
    I really do wonder if that's the end game here. because otherwise I would have to think if they cancelled their whole entire reveal based on this that that's it and I know that they keep saying it came out that under the advisement of the VIPs that were there I think that's what it is guys I know people have talked about well the game itself it still had some prototype features which we could argue back all day long whether how smart that was to decide to try to launch some type of reveal without your game even being complete. But I really do believe they thought the software was ready to show. And once the software malfunctioned, it was game over. It was game over. Because I think the full intention is they're selling this whole package around the software. I don't think they're selling it around, what is it, the pin box or whatever it's called. You're not building a company around that. You're not building a company around Raza. that game's not going to sell thousands of games you're not building a company around food truck that's one of the themes that they're coming out you're not going to even build a company around the hoop you're not going to do that I really do think the whole thing the whole shebang is all about pin bar and the reason for that too if you look at the possibilities of what it's intended to do it is interesting Now, I think the application from the pictures that we've seen with how large it is on the lockdown bar area, just to be honest, it looks weird. To me, it looks weird. For me personally, maybe I'm wrong, but I've never once looked down at the lock bar while playing. It doesn't feel natural. I think their thing is that it should feel natural for your eyes to be at the flippers and then look further down. For me, it's personally not. I like working from bottom up. That's what I like to do while I play pinball. That's what I'm used to doing. And it's never dawned on me once to look at the action button ever. Like how many times does it happen that we see that action button blinking and we watch somebody completely miss it and don't even realize it's blinking.
    22:59
    Now, granted, this is a lot different. I just saying it in the same area and it just not natural to look in that spot obviously with it being touch base and all that it makes sense why they want to put it there I really wonder though if that screen is going to be functional enough if it's not going to be too far off base in terms of how we view pinball, how we look at pinball. And I'm not talking like just looking at it from general. I'm talking about when you're actually at the game, your hands are on the flippers and you're on the, you know what I mean? If you're actually looking at the pin, is it going to be too weird? And I don't know yet until I see it in person. I don't know. Offhand, it looks like from a straight down shot, which guys align your flippers. The poor little flippers got offline. But when you look straight down, there is not much gap. It seems like in between. and that straight down look is generally from where somebody would be standing. It might be even a little further over the pinball machine. So it makes me wonder if you're at a certain height that is not six foot, how does that affect what you see? If you have a kid playing this game, how does that affect them being able to see the flippers? I'm very curious about that. So I don't know the functionality yet in terms of the sheer size of this pin bar. Now, if we get into what the actual software is intended to do, especially as a touch-based display, there are some exciting prospects to it. And this really lends itself to why I think that this is actually the star of the show, that this whole thing is the star of the show. And again, the star of the show has to be the software. Obviously not the look of it yet. That can always be refined. I think it's the software.
    24:56
    And just going over everything here. So they have something on there that talks about why is pinball so revolutionary.
    25:04
    And they discuss what they believe will have an immediate impact to the pinball experience. The very first thing they talk about is visibility. And I've already gone over that. I understand why it's there. I don't think looking down is as natural as what they say it is. That's just me. Now, if you played enough, I'm sure you would get used to it, much like how Hot Wheels with American Pinball has an offset LCD. Eventually, for me, I still notice it a little bit, but I don't notice it near as bad doing it over and over and over again. I also believe with this pin bar thing, the intent is to really go hard at the home customer base and not on location. And you can draw that conclusion based on not having, by using original themes and by utilizing this, I don't see this working well at all in bars or anywhere where you might have either A, drunk people, or B, people with drinks. That will set down stuff on top there. I could see it being a logistical nightmare. All right, so going back over the actual things that this pin bar can do. the let's see here they talk about interactivity and it says usually visual content or many video games can only be controlled by the existing flipper buttons or adding an extra physical button which substantially restricts interactivity experiences and features a multi-touch high-res screen provides unlimited and dynamic interactivity just like your smartphone I personally, I understand this one I don't like it I want to play pinball even during a video mode I don't want to feel like my hands have to go off the flippers at all I don't want to play what feels like a mobile game at a pinball machine let's imagine this for a second the implications of what they're saying that you're at a high level tournament and it comes down to not who is flipping the best, not who is hitting the shots the best, but who can play a mini game on a touchscreen the best.
    27:15
    I'm not a fan of that. I get it, but I'm not a fan of that. The next thing was rule set and content. The existing system does not allow robust on-demand and flexible updating and customization of rule set and content. A touchscreen is the perfect input-output canvas for a framework that allows unlimited ways to add new content on the fly and seamlessly change the digital rules of a physical game. This has my attention.
    27:43
    That little nugget right there is huge. The implications of it are huge also. We're talking about two different possible things here because we do know that they want online interconnectivity and all that. So here's two things that really come about because of this. one you can either take a game and come up with your own customized rule set to make the game as deep as difficult or as easy as you want that part's exciting i've always wished for that type of innovation because you can in turn make a game play different immediately you can make it to where you hit different shots where you have to approach the game much different than what somebody else wants you to approach the game because that's the idea of somebody that makes the rules. They want you to play it a certain way in order to achieve a certain score. That's a big deal. Number two, what it also implies is if this allows unlimited ways to add new content on the fly, it implies the possibility of two things within this realm, either DLC, right, All new rule sets, all new narratives based around the same theme. Okay. Or it means that there's the possibility that somebody could make their own rule set and then share it. Other people that also are on the same platform.
    29:11
    That, I mean, to me, that's intriguing. That is innovation that hasn't been done before. That's to me, that, that is a big deal. That's a little nugget in there. That's very interesting to me. All right, so problem solving. It's very difficult to diagnose and repair problems using the current pinball systems without having a prior extensive knowledge. The pin bar now allows more intuitive interaction to display and diagnose issues as well as remote management and video chats.
    29:39
    Interesting as well. Does that mean that we can use the pin to contact them at DeepRoot, to contact one of their techs, and they diagnose what's going on at the same time?
    29:50
    Again, that's different. I mean, that could be what that means. Maybe I'm just totally misunderstanding what they're saying.
    29:57
    All right, then the next one is not approachable. Current pinball machines are simply not approachable to most people who expect interactive audiovisual experiences just like their smartphone or tablet.
    30:09
    I don't really know. I don't know what that means, so I'm just going to move forward. I'm sure somebody out there might get it. I don't get it. All right, innovative and virtually upgradable. Because of the fixed static physical nature of existing pinball machines, there's no way to instantaneously and dynamically expand features or build upon the physical world. Pinbar changes that with interactive settings and upgradable content using the unlimited virtual world. There you go. That kind of goes back into rule set and content. I think this might turn pinball, at least coming from Deep Root, kind of like Minecraft in a way in which you are dealing with the world. Okay. Just in a way, just go with me on this analogy here before any other gamer nerds like me are like, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. But go with me on this. It's almost like you have to still work within the confines of the physical world that Deep Root provides for you, but you can make other aspects work to your ideas. and this is interesting to me because one of the reasons why I'm probably going to sell my Ninja Turtles LE is simply because the rule set I feel like I have no need to explore any part of the rule set because there's one very particular way to blow up the pin and all the other ways it I can't get the same score and the same efficiency this right here would solve that problem for me on that pin because I love that theme that's a dream theme I would be able to customize the rule set or bring the rule set up to par that would make my experience more enjoyable on it would make me want to play it more so this is this is interesting and think of the other implications of this as well you could theoretically change how tournament pinball really operates in terms of making a rule set to be very goal-based it changes the way that you do heads up i'm not saying it would go this way but i'm saying the opportunity for future innovation when dealing with competition or events or anything of the sort is there because of this. And then there's all this other features of pin bar. Again, we'll go over this later tonight during the live stream. It's very hard just to go over every single one, but I'll highlight a couple of them here right now.
    32:25
    Let's see, role-based settings profiles. That one's interesting to me. The skill shot. I don't know what that means. I don't know if that means you have an actual skill shot that's built in to it. Like you got a plunge and then instead of using flippers, you just play a little game. Like, I don't know. That's, that's a, that's a little out there for me now shop and store concept. Does that mean you actually connect with deep roots merch? Does that mean you can hit a button and download DLC immediately to your game? I mean, that that's intriguing too. The other thing that's intriguing, I wonder if they would allow third party people to create their own rule sets and to let people review the rule sets and vote on the rules that like that way third-party people can actually sell their rule sets and deep root just takes a you know takes a cut that'd be interesting that hasn't been done before and i mean theoretically that's elsewhere on other platforms there's stuff out there that exists sort of in that realm but nothing like that in pinball let's see pause and continue gameplay that's a huge one that does not exist yet. Tutorials, again, that's pretty important. I could imagine that being able to pick how to, how do you do this? And it shows up on LCD. That's big. Stern kind of does that right now a little bit, but it's not fully integrated to the point that I think it's extremely helpful if you're trying to look for something very specific because you have to wade through some of the other stuff. So if they can actually put a tutorial in there in which imagine if you have Bowden on the back box, you hit a button and you're like, I want to know how to start this multi-ball. And then he literally explains it right to you and shows all the shots. That's something very unique. And I think that that would be something that's very helpful.
    34:16
    Inventory management, not sure what that would be. Let's see, teasers, trailers, I guess showing off other stuff that's possible. Achievements, that one's huge. That right there, I've said for well over a year now, to anybody that would listen, I feel like that needs to be implemented in pinball That really does because achievements give you a reason to keep playing the same game over and over and over again Even if you are terrible at the game even if you cannot put up a GC if you can even put up a decent score, it gives you a reason to do something on that game. Imagine a world in which you do have your own profile that's either linked to Stern, that's linked to Jersey Jack, that's linked to Deep Root, whoever it could be. But imagine a world where you have a profile and some of the, like every single pinball machine that comes out from that company has certain achievements you could do. And this could kind of work as if just like the trophy system on Avengers, it could be very similar. But imagine like an achievement could be like take walking dead. For instance, I'll just use that for an example. Start well, Walker, 100 times.
    35:27
    And then you get points for that. Well, one, you can make it to where it's actually useful to do something like that because you could say, all right, you achieved so many points on your profile base based off your achievements. And guess what? You can cash in your points that you got for future DLC or merch or something that is worthwhile that's still on brand for whichever company is doing that. I think achievements are a big deal. It's huge in the video game world. It gives people a reason to keep grinding, to keep playing. I know getting platinum trophies on PlayStation is huge for a lot of people. Getting completionist, getting 100% on a game is huge. And something like that, it lends itself to a lot of replayability on a pinball machine, even if you're not very good at it. In a home area, I could see that being a big deal. I think that that is a big deal to have achievements involved.
    36:25
    Let's see. Maintenance screens. I assume that they must have some type of thing that kind of alerts you when something either needs maintenance or maybe the potential of having maintenance. Because I know they've talked a lot of potential diagnostics that they could run.
    36:40
    Let's see. Future features of Pinbar. Okay. So that means, all right. So I just read through some of the features of Pinbar. So that must be currently in there. That must be currently in there. And it even says news ads custom content. so what would stop what would stop if that's the case what would stop me from paying for ad space to where you just see my beautiful face on your pinball machine yeah that would be terrible you guys would all hate me so that's that's uh interesting there i don't know how to feel about having ad space like selling ads i don't want to buy a pinball machine and see ads in front of me, especially at home. So I hope that maybe that setting might just be for if it's on location, I could see how that would be extremely useful. And yeah, I'm willing to bet that that's probably the application for it. Even though I still don't think these games are fully meant to be on location. I really do think they're zeroing in on the home user. All right, so moving forward to future features. Let's see. Virtual buttons for persons with disabilities. That's awesome. I think that really is needed. Adjust the difficulty level of rule set. I fully agree that's needed. Anytime somebody's playing, if all of a sudden you realize, wait, this is really hard, I wish that there was a simple way to just adjust the difficulty instantaneously to where you don't have to start a new game, to where you don't have to do much other than just say, okay, I'm going from default to easy, or I'm going from easy to hard, whichever way it could go. Let's see, social media integration, that needed to come. I don't know how effective that'll be, but I could see how being 2020, it's about time that it does have some sort of thing to do with social media. Load save game state. Now, I did see that their plan is to be able to have you play a game on one pinball machine and then save your game and go play on an entirely different pinball machine of the same theme and pick up where you left off. That's interesting. That right there would be pretty cool to do. I would love to be able to play something somewhere, even if it's at a show or anywhere else, and all of a sudden I'm blowing up this game, I can't play any longer, or just save it to a point. Maybe I get to wizard mode and I save my game right there, I keep playing, but I fell, but I can still pick it up where I left off and try for wizard mode again, just pick up where I left off. It's like a checkpoint. That's very interesting to me. And I know some people may consider that a cheese, but in video games, of course, if you're failing at the same part over and over again, it's not necessarily fun to get sent all the way back to the beginning. And I feel like accessing checkpoints for people, especially people that are very average to below average, that would make the game much more fun. I know for me, if I'm trying to learn any new game, if I could have a checkpoint to keep starting back to, to get me right back to that point, to work on different parts, to work on different sequences, I would love that. That would be huge. And then, let's see, another future feature is play against a save shot log. that that's intriguing as well so in theory that means it's kind of like the whole mario kart you're racing against your former your former race it's like a ghost of you going i could see something being like that and that would be intriguing as well i think that there's possibilities too with that that you could have world-class pinball players play a game and it shows the shots that they would have hit and maybe you can visually somehow visually see that while you're playing. I don't know how that would work necessarily, but I like the idea of it. I just don't know how it would be put into practice. And then naturally has multiplayer remote play. So online play multiplayer video chat. So while you're playing online, you can actually see the people that you're playing. I mean, that's all, that's all interesting. And again, I'm not huge on the online component in that way, but I know a lot of people have been looking for that. And, you know, we're about 40 minutes into this now, and, again, there's still so much. We've just gone over Pinbar. We haven't gone over any of the other features yet, and there's so much. There really is a lot. And, again, it makes me wonder what is the practical application. Like, well, I understand what they're going for. I just wonder, can it be done? And if it can be done, why did they not reveal that?
    41:19
    Why did they not reveal that? I find all this other stuff, sure, I want to see a working game. But I find the ideas that they have for different innovations very interesting. I find them very intriguing that I feel like it would put pinball forward. It is things that need to come to pinball. Now, do I think all of it needs to come? No. But there's some solid ideas in there. There really is. If we can peel back the layers of this and we ignore all the hype, all the talk, we ignore all the trolling that's happened and everything, and we just look at this just on its own, it's very intriguing. But I am cautious about all that. I'm cautious. Until we see it in practice, to me right now, it's just a concept. It's just a concept. And I would love to see this in practice and I hope they get it right. I really do. I want them to be successful because I know that there is a lot of hardworking people within that company. And regardless of how anybody feels about the loudspeak, the loud talk and all that, we do have to understand that there are still people inside that company working hard and they they're not trying to pound their chest. They're not trying to draw attention on themselves. They are just trying to do the best they can day by day to produce whatever it is that they're trying to produce. And I hope it happens. Again, cautiously optimistic.
    42:59
    And that's, I mean, that's about all I can say about this. And, again, I literally just covered. It took me 40 minutes just to cover that basic pin pod and didn't really even go that in-depth about it. There's so much. There's so much to unpack here. and I gosh I just wish don't you guys that they had a presentation with all this on Monday what like if they would have just done a full-on virtual presentation of all of this I I think a lot of people not everybody not everybody but I think a lot of people would have been on board being more intrigued by the potential of what's going on I find all this much more fascinating than a hammer test on wood or on a play field.
    43:46
    It still confuses me. I don't know why that all wasn't available. I think it's an extreme missed opportunity. If it were me and I was inside there, I don't think I would have recommended it, scrapping the reveal completely. I would have been like, guys, just show Raza, show the game. don't even show it playable be honest with everybody say look the tech we were going to show it wasn't working the way that we want it and we only want to present you with something that is working but here's what the pen looks like now and here is the tech ideas that we have and i honestly think a lot of people would have listened to it and a lot of people would have respected that decision a lot of people respect humbleness i mean that's the way a lot of this works and I feel like that's a missed opportunity I'm glad that they are trying to show a little bit that they're willing to show for us to chew on and try to figure out and I would say if anybody from Deep Root is listening to this or whatever like tell us more about this pin bar like get it right get it ready and show us that because again Raza yeah and Raza is going to be the first application of it but Raza is going to come and go that's just literally one theme if the line gets going, if it gets going and there's any intention on producing pins, we're just going to move on to the next one, to the next one. It's just like how many people think about stern monsters right now or stranger thing? Nobody does simply because Ninja turtles and Avengers have already come out. How many people think of Rob zombie pinball? Nobody does. Cause Rick and Morty is out. So I just, I want to know more about the pin bar. I want to know more. That is extremely intriguing and you know, I can't wait. hopefully more comes out but that's going to about wrap it up guys if you guys have any questions comments anything critiques whatever you know be sure and let me know in the comments down below or you can email me at a pinball podcast at gmail.com i'll be sure and read it i try to reply to everything that i can and other than that we will be back on later tonight 9 p.m u.s central standard time to where i will be going over all of this in as much detail as possible answering questions that people may have and just kind of just talking through it. And we just all try to figure this all out together. But other than that, though, guys, you guys have a wonderful day and I will talk to you guys later. Later, guys.