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Why Stern’s Transformers More Than Meets the Eye… with Elliot & Elizabeth

Gonzo's Pinball Flipperama·video·52m 58s·analyzed·Jul 8, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.023

TL;DR

Stern's Transformers G1 game showcases ambitious design, deep code, and seamless theme integration despite cutting the transforming Optimus toy.

Summary

Enzo interviews Elliot Eismin (designer) and Elizabeth Davey (code) from Stern Pinball about the newly announced Transformers G1 pinball machine. The conversation covers theme integration, the decision to exclude a transforming Optimus Prime toy due to reliability concerns, extensive code depth with five missions and dynamic rule systems, collaborative design with Hasbro, and the game's nostalgia-driven appeal to 1980s cartoon fans. Both speakers praise the licensing partnership and emphasize ambitious, non-safe design choices that differentiate it from recent mass-appeal titles like Pokémon and Star Wars.

Key Claims

  • Elliot Eismin did not know he would be working on Transformers when developing John Wick; he found out after completing that game.

    high confidence · Elliot directly states: 'No, I found out after. There was a bit of a gap between when I finished WIC and when Transformers started.'

  • The transforming Optimus Prime toy was cut from the final design due to reliability issues that would have negatively impacted on-location gameplay.

    high confidence · Elliot explains: 'it was just a reliability issue and that was going to be unfortunate. People walked up to the game and it's just kind of stuck and now it's like it kind of ruins the moment a bit.'

  • Elizabeth Davey had significantly more development time for Transformers compared to John Wick, which allowed her to write much of the ruleset before physical playfield design was finalized.

    high confidence · Elizabeth states: 'I had more time in this game... I wrote a lot of the ruleset before the design was first designed' and 'I got a lot of the game done early on. Like before we had had inserts on the playfield.'

  • Hasbro was exceptionally collaborative and approving, with no major design ideas requiring rejection or restart due to licensing constraints.

    high confidence · Elizabeth notes: 'We never had to tweak our ideas or have to go back and be like, oh, we started work on this thing, but now we can't do it, so we got to restart. So there was nothing left on the cutting room floor.'

  • Transformers game features five main missions, each with three difficulty levels (easy, medium, hard) that scale with Energon Cube collection.

    high confidence · Elizabeth explains: 'There's five missions and those are your main modes and each mode has three different versions. There's the easy, medium, hard.'

  • The game includes a two-player versus mode (in development) where players compete using left/right flippers and an action button, inspired by fighting game mechanics.

    medium confidence · Elizabeth states: 'That's only in two player. There's no way of playing that on your own... it kind of stink. It's really fun.' She notes it's 'still in underdevelopment' with rule changes still being tested.

Notable Quotes

  • “G1 Transformers is my dream theme. And for me, it got to a point where I actually had George Gomez Transformers and I was going to re-theme it because I thought we were never going to get a G1 Transformers.”

    Enzo @ ~0:04:00 — Establishes the speaker's emotional investment in the theme and frames the announcement's significance to longtime fans.

  • “I definitely said I want to be a little bit more ambitious with this one and not be as safe, I guess, because I felt like WIC was just like learning how to do shots.”

    Elliot Eismin @ ~0:05:30 — Reveals design philosophy shift between his two major projects, indicating growth and creative risk-taking.

  • “It is probably the best theme integrated game that Stern's done in my opinion.”

    Enzo @ ~0:08:00 — High praise for thematic integration, placing Transformers above recent iconic releases like Star Wars and Pokémon from a fan perspective.

  • “I have shelves of mechs that didn't make the cutting, you know, didn't make it. For whatever reason, we always try to put the best reliable mechs in the pinball machine that we can.”

    Elliot Eismin @ ~0:16:30 — Contextualizes mechanical design tradeoffs and establishes that reliability trumps feature ambition in final products.

  • “My first idea is almost that never the right one. Everything from a simple mode like Transformers Multiball... All five missions as well, like I touched it maybe three times each to get it fun and right feeling.”

    Elizabeth Davey @ ~0:44:00 — Reveals iterative design methodology and commitment to playtesting—emphasizes that initial concepts undergo extensive refinement.

  • “We didn't let it stop us from, you know, there's a Starscream mode and it's just a bunch of Starscream because Starscream's funny.”

    Elizabeth Davey @ ~0:53:00 — Shows how thematic content decisions are made—choosing fun/character over mechanical completeness; acknowledges Decepticon content despite Autobot-only alignment.

  • “I wanted that ramp to feel great every time you hit it... I don't want people to be gated by that shot.”

Entities

Transformers G1gameElliot EisminpersonElizabeth DaveypersonEnzopersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Official reveal of Stern Pinball's Transformers G1 licensed machine with designer and code team presenting at industry events.

    high · Elliot and Elizabeth from Stern are publicly discussing the game in detail, including design seminar presentations at Northwest Pinball Show.

  • ?

    design_innovation: Transformers G1 features unprecedented level of theme integration including G1 cartoon call-outs, original voice acting, musical numbers, commercial break interstitials, and sprite animations.

    high · Enzo praises it as 'probably the best theme integrated game that Stern's done in my opinion' and describes watching Saturday morning cartoon recreations with cereal nostalgia.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Elliot deliberately chose ambitious, non-safe playfield design for Transformers (avoiding fan layout) to appeal to both new players and 40-60 year old core collectors while differentiating from recent mass-appeal titles.

    high · Elliot: 'I want to be a little bit more ambitious with this one and not be as safe'; Enzo notes layout is 'different' and risks reward-oriented compared to Pokemon/Star Wars design.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Hasbro functioned as exceptionally collaborative partner with no design rejections, providing extensive brand guidelines and approving all game concepts without requiring cutdowns.

    high · Elizabeth: 'We never had to tweak our ideas... Hasbro was just super, super positive about the game... they gave us everything we wanted, and more so.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Transforming Optimus Prime toy was cut from final design due to reliability issues that would cause on-location machine failures and ruin player experience.

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.035

0:00
Music Music Alrighty, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night, wherever the hell you're coming from. Obviously, I'm Enzo, Gonzo's not here today, so you've got Enzo. I've got the lovely team of Elliot and Elizabeth from Stern. How are you guys going?
0:26
Doing good, how are you doing? Excellent. Not bad, not bad. It's been a while. We haven't spoken for a while. Yeah. We spoke, when did we come out? Two years ago now? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Probably around this time two years ago. Yeah. Oh, wow. Long time. And we'll touch on that as well.
0:45
Transformers, G1. I'm the right person to talk to about it and I'm going to shield the shit out of this game because like G1 Transformers is my dream theme. And for me, it got to a point where I actually had George Gomez's Transformers and I was going to re-theme it because I thought we were never going to get a G1 Transformers. And I thought that's a really easy game to re-theme because you just leave everything there. The code was good, but I heard a rumor about possibly a Transformers game and I'm extremely happy with it. I think I'm probably the right person demographically because I'm 43. I grew up with the cartoons.
1:28
I can be pretty critical of the theme. And I'm extremely happy with what you guys have done, which we'll touch on it.
  • Enzo was shown early marketing materials (likely an Optimus Prime shirt worn intentionally by someone at Stern) that hinted at the Transformers announcement a year prior to the interview.

    medium confidence · Enzo recalls: 'A year ago looking at this going, that SOB is wearing an Optimus Prime shirt... I gave him an answer... you did that intentionally. I did.'

  • The game's code complexity grew from having more development time and early ruleset planning, with Elizabeth uncertain about having similar time allocation on future projects.

    high confidence · Elizabeth: 'No, I had more time in this game... I don't know I'll have as much time on my next one... it was a lot of effort. I don't want to have to work that hard again.'

  • Elizabeth Davey @ ~0:48:00 — Demonstrates game design philosophy prioritizing accessibility and feel over difficulty gating, ensuring difficult shots aren't required for progression.

  • “Instead of a drink holder, we should have a cereal bowl holder on the side of the pinball machine.”

    Elliot Eismin @ ~0:33:00 — Illustrates the nostalgia-driven design success; references the theme's emotional resonance with Saturday morning cartoon audiences.

  • “Nostalgia for me is the key to successful pinball. I've always said that. I think it's a fantastic way of doing business.”

    Enzo @ ~0:07:30 — States the core strategic principle the Transformers design leverages—licensing iconic IP that evokes specific generational memories.

  • “Let's make one good game instead of two okay games.”

    Elizabeth Davey @ ~0:52:00 — Justifies the decision to commit fully to Autobot experience rather than splitting development for both faction playstyles; reflects design focus philosophy.

  • Hasbro
    company
    John Wickgame
    George Gomezperson
    Zombie Yetiperson
    Pokemongame
    Star Warsgame
    Retro Ralphperson
    Ralphperson
    Joelperson
    Kerryperson
    Knights of Unicronproduct
    [name withheld pending review]person
    Black Rosegame
    King Konggame
    Northwest Pinball Showevent

    high · Elliot explains prototypes underwent extensive testing, with shelves of mechs that didn't make final cut due to reliability; transforming toy specifically abandoned to prevent stuck/jammed states.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Game features five main missions with three difficulty tiers each, tech spec system with dynamic shot multipliers, five combiners leading to multiball, three Dinobot variations, and untimed modes providing significant replay value and strategic depth.

    high · Elizabeth provides detailed ruleset explanation covering missions, Energon Cubes, tech specs, combiners, Dinobot area, and 'One Shall Fall' ball-3 mode with variable scoring up to 200 million.

  • ?

    design_innovation: Game employs 'rule of five' structure where five color-coded tech specs map to five missions and five combiners, with random game-to-game variation requiring players to adapt strategy and playfield analysis each game.

    high · Elizabeth: 'Even though you have a strategy, you're going to have to be light on your feet and be able to pay attention... Each game is random which color is going to be associated with which shot.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Elizabeth Davey gaining significant industry recognition as emerging design talent; Enzo predicts she will become 'a pretty big thing in pinball' despite male-dominated hobby, praising her coding approach, interviews, and passion.

    high · Enzo: 'I think you're going to be a pretty big thing in pinball, which is huge because obviously you're female as well, which is very unique in a male-dominated hobby.'

  • $

    market_signal: Transformers G1 positioned as major IP license targeting specific generational demographic (40-60 year old nostalgic fans) rather than mass-market onboarding, contrasting with Pokemon and Star Wars strategies.

    high · Enzo notes layout appeals to 'pinball crew, people my age, 40 to 60' requiring 'risk reward and unique' design; Transformers positioned as 80s nostalgia play vs. new-player-friendly Star Wars/Pokemon.

  • ?

    community_signal: Strong positive community sentiment with multiple content creators (Ralph, Kerry, Joel) having played and praised the game; widespread enthusiasm based on thematic authenticity and gameplay depth.

    medium · Enzo notes Ralph, Kerry, and Joel all provided positive feedback; describes watching streams of players getting competitive in 'One Shall Fall' mode; anticipates high streaming interest.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Elizabeth emphasizes extensive playtesting and iteration on each mode (touched 3+ times per mission) with focus on fun factor over initial concepts, rejecting early ideas in favor of emergent solutions.

    high · Elizabeth: 'My first idea is almost that never the right one... all five missions... I touched it maybe three times each to get it fun and right feeling. So yeah, a lot of care.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Design philosophy avoids skill gating on difficult shots; side ramp (hard to hit) provides regular combiner parts but isn't required for progression due to alternate tech spec route, ensuring casual players aren't blocked.

    high · Elizabeth: 'I wanted that ramp to feel great every time you hit it... I don't want people to be gated by that shot... you get two parts per third tech spec.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Game generating significant media interest with YouTube reveal videos watched repeatedly by fans, Northwest Pinball Show presentation coverage, and planned streaming events with competitive players.

    medium · Enzo watched four-minute reveal trailer '10 times... just took me back' and mentions planned Ralph weekend stream; game discussed extensively across pinball media platforms.

  • 1:36
    Obviously, John Wick, Elliot, was your first game, which people have a love-hate relationship with. It's fun. It's simple, but it's brutal. And obviously copped a little bit of negativity at the beginning because of the whole gun gate saga that people like to dwindle on the propaganda of that. And now you've got obviously the fact that Optimus doesn't transform and we'll touch on that in a second. But I think as a learning curve from WIC, did you already know you were doing Transformers when you were working on WIC or did you find out after? No, I found out after. There was a bit of gap between when I finished WIC and when Transformers started. So I didn't know I was going to do or what even the next game was after WIC.
    2:27
    Do you reckon you, like, obviously you had time to digest people's feedback or things that you maybe wanted to do and didn't get into the last game. Do you reckon that impacted a lot in this design that you started working on? Yeah, I definitely said I want to be a little bit more ambitious with this one and not be as safe, I guess, because I felt like WIC was just like learning how to do shots and trying to figure that out all, you know, just figure that out. But this one I was like, OK, let's just try some some random stuff and see what happens. And I think it turned out pretty good. Yeah, I mean, safe is like fan layout. I was like, oh, Transformers, is that like a theme that we want to try and get new people into the hobby, like, you know, Pokemon and Star Wars, where you're going to keep it probably a pretty safe layout. You don't want to scare people. So I was like, oh, but then again, Transformers is also pinball crew, people my age, 40 to 60, right? So we probably want something that it's a bit risk reward and a bit, you know, unique. So I think you've nailed it from what I've seen. Obviously, we haven't played it. We don't have it in Australia yet. I was invited over and this would have been the perfect one for me to come across to see, but unfortunately, I couldn't make it.
    3:42
    There are elements of obviously what you've done in this game from a fan's perspective. I saw the little four-minute bit that George started and you guys spoke about that ultimately was literally transported me. Nostalgia for me is the key to successful pinball. I've always said that. I think it's a fantastic way of doing business. What I saw just took me back to like 1986, 1988 when I was just at that right age when I was watching Saturday morning cartoons and the fact that you guys have got call-outs, sound effects, music, Teletram 1 animations, even the commercial break, Welcome Back. Like it is probably the best theme integrated game that Stern's done in my opinion.
    4:36
    I'll probably be critical. Some people will probably smash me in the comments for that. And I said I'm going to shoo the shit out of this, but I think it's important to understand from an 80s kid, everything that I've seen. It's just like I remember watching it. I watched it like 10 times, I reckon, that four-minute trailer. And I was going, this is just like everything you could possibly want. I would have liked to have seen a transforming optimist and I understand why it's not in there. And look, no pinball game is perfect. And I think the propaganda behind this whole transforming negativity, like, yeah, it's a shame it's not in there. The beauty thing about the pinball community is I'm sure someone's going to make a mod and probably sell it to us. We'll try it for sure. Not that you guys endorse that, but I would rather a 99% game that is completely in on the theme instead of worrying about a little mech that doesn't transform or has reliability issues or whatever.
    5:37
    So if a fan of the theme, like this is a dream theme, and if I can get past that, I'm sure Pinball players that don't really care for the theme aren't going to care that much about Optimus not transforming. I am going to throw something at you here. I don't know if you remember this or not. This was a year ago nearly today, right?
    6:00
    I remember a year ago looking at this going, that SOB is wearing an Optimus Prime shirt. Yep. I gave him an answer. I was like, hey, what? You did that intentionally. I did. Yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio GIF where he goes and I spotted it and I realized. So let's talk us through it. Obviously, Elizabeth, you're, I've been a big fan of yours on this channel. I spoke very highly of you. I think that you're a phenomenal coder, but not just the way you code and the little things that you've done. I think there's elements of your interviews, your passion and your thoughts and ideas that come across really well.
    6:50
    And I have been commented or quoted to say that I think you're going to be a pretty big thing in pinball, which is huge because obviously you're female as well, which is very unique in a male-dominated hobby. The code stuff, right? Because there's always, I know you guys have had a bit longer to kind of build this game because there's been a little bit of a time gap between the last game that Elliot's done. Is that the reason why the code is, would you say, has got more in it or is it just because you're really good and fast?
    7:21
    No, I had more time in this game. Yeah, I was gifted with more time. I don't know I'll have as much time on my next one. So, but it is a, you know, you got to plan out what you want in that beginning of the game.
    7:38
    And then, yeah, I don't know. I got it. It just kind of worked out. I don't know. I don't want to have to work that hard again. I think, yeah, it was a lot of effort. It was just a lot of effort. Do you think a lot? Because I know I watched the interview you did with Losey Kid. I don't want to kind of repeat the similar questions, but I think there's elements that you guys obviously didn't know the show. And you watched a lot of the episodes. Do you think because you had access to everything that it was like easier to kind of use things to make modes and everything kind of was a bit easier to kind of, I'm sure your brain's always working and you've gone, I can do this, I can do that. And there's so many little things because the way I've understood it and correct me if I'm wrong, there's a lot going on behind the scenes as you're playing the game of other things that are happening to stack and to like create little side missions. Yeah, I mean, it was, I kind of wrote a lot of the ruleset before the design was first designed, which kind of helped Elliot, like, you know, kind of drag what you need. Yeah. You know, with, I'm like, I know I have a spinner mode and a drop target mode, and I need this number of stand-up targets, and it was kind of nice. And so I felt like I got a lot of the game done early on.
    8:56
    Like before we had had inserts on the playfield, I got a lot of the game done. Yeah, it always helps to like design the rules with the playfield because then they can, you know, work with each other. Yeah, but I think the most helpful thing of not having like time wasted or time lost was having a really great licensor. Like all of our ideas went through Hasbro and was like big thumbs up. We never had to tweak our ideas or have to go back and be like, oh, we started work on this thing, but now we can't do it, so we got to restart. So there was nothing left on the cutting room floor or any ideas that were lost. Hasbro was just super, super positive about the game, excited about it, and they gave us everything we wanted, and more so. Give me less. Sometimes it's a lot to take in. And then it doesn't help that Mike, is it Mike that works with you guys? That's a huge Transformers fan? Yes. That helps you on it? Yeah. And he did the 2000, what's his last name again? Kizobat. Kizobat, that's right. And he worked on the 2011 one as well? Yeah. Yeah, right. Interesting. I thought the Hasbro, I always thought that them as a license would be, I mean, there's so much content. And do you think that there's like looking at what the show's got versus I mean, and even as a theme, actually, I'll strip it back a little bit. Like it's probably one of the most iconic cartoons because even to this day, it's still relevant because they're still making stuff. I mean, even today I saw a Scooby-Doo crossover with Transformers. So they're just this TV show, this little TV show that's like, you know, I've even got like a original first edition Transformers comic and, you know, it's stuff that to this day, they're still, I mean, this came out recently and they're reissuing tapes, little Soundwave tapes. Yeah. Like it's a theme that is, you know, it's so relevant still that there is just so much content, right? And like having the licensee going, yeah, you guys do this. Was there anything you couldn't do that they didn't want you to do at all?
    11:05
    Very minor things. Like I know the script had the most, I feel like, back and forth. Yeah. And it was all in respect to the original vision, right? And it was minor stuff. We couldn't say... It was like Optimus had to say, Autobots transform and roll out. We couldn't shorten it or something. Yeah, just being more true to the characters. Yeah, yeah. And nothing that was out of the realm. Yeah, the other thing they were really particular about was their things that the logos were all right. Oh, yeah. A few times we had the wrong logo because they have the evergreen logo and then the one for the movies. There's movie logos. Every bit of Transformers franchise has their own specific style of logo. And we were in the evergreen side of it. So they just wanted to make sure everything was particular. And I think that really helped drive the direction to be really holistic, I think. So I think it helped in the end. And also I'm assuming having assets for the artwork too because a lot of the playful, these lines, like I've got these drawings that have been done by an artist that I met over at Perth Comic Con where you've got the boxed line artwork which is quite iconic, right? Yeah. Even people that can't see it but the, what do they call it, like 80s? It's like a grid. Just a grid, right? Yeah. Just a grid. It just screams nostalgia and that's the part that like when you panned over the playfield in that video I was like the artwork is just spot on and obviously having Zombie Yeti help you know with the artwork. I'm assuming Hasbro would have given you like someone that you had to work with as well for art direction? Yeah, we had a big design document that had a lot of the sprites for all the characters. Yeah Hesbro is really good at their own brand and especially their own brand for their toys and their collections in general So they had a I think 40 or 50 page document of here everything that relates to this brand and this IP you know and so that really helped drive the direction especially for the characters the packaging like they had everything Yeah, the fonts. The fonts, yeah. It was all laid out. So they know their product the best and they were able to just do like, here it is. And as you can see, it turned out. It did, it did. I was going to open up, you guys did a seminar that I saw, I can't remember what show it was at, where you guys showed, not this one, it was the other one, obviously elements of the design process where it was really obvious that at one point, where is it, there was obviously a transforming optimist and the kind of ramp went around it and all that. Do you want to just briefly touch on this? I mean, obviously people can watch this. Right. What show did you do this at again? This was at a Northwest Pinball show. Yeah. So we can see obviously Optimus is down at the moment. So that was you had touched on it being a little bit of reliability and just not getting it working the way you wanted it to work. Yeah. And that happens a lot. You know, we go through so many designs. You know, we're constantly making mechs. We're constantly, like, evaluating them. And I have, you know, I've been doing this since 2014 for Stern, and I have shelves of mechs that didn't make the cutting, you know, didn't make it. For whatever reason, we always try to put the best reliable mechs in the pinball machine that we can. And this one, I mean, as you know, a transformer is pretty complicated. So it just came down to the fact that it was just a reliability issue and that was going to be unfortunate. People walked up to the game and it's just kind of stuck and now it's like it kind of ruins the moment a bit. Yeah, and especially if it's going on site as well. Yeah, exactly. And I just didn't want to negatively impact because there's so much other good stuff in there. And so, yeah. Yeah. Did you ever, obviously the Megatron is a big like wow moment of him firing the cannon. Did you ever have the thought of switching, like putting Optimus to have a cannon firing because he's got a cannon in the show as well and then bashing Megatron instead or was it just too late at that point? It was just a little too late. And, you know, it's also a big undertaking to make a very specific designed mech fit a different thing. So it's like we spent a lot of time on that canon too. So it's like, yeah, it really just kind of not a timing issue. And did the, am I correct this by looking at this? Did it, like with the ramp, when Optimus was up, did he become part of the ramp? And then when he was down, it was a different shot? Like, did you have like two shots in one? So it was kind of like, he was kind of trying to transform the playfield at the same time. That was the idea. So there was going to be stuff revealed, stuff moved. I don't want to go into too much onto it, but, you know, it was going to be a little bit more involved. So the other thing, you didn't feel the impact of them too when it did transform. And I think, like I said, without staying on this topic for too long, the fact that it's not in there is a shame, but there's so much more in this that I think it kind of makes it all fine.
    16:49
    Just the moment you push the button, for me, there's that replay value. I haven't even played the game and I feel like you can see that it has, I want to play another one. And, you know, I've had a lot of people, I spoke to Ralph today and Kerry the other day that I'm pretty chummy with most of the pinball crew. And they've all said the same thing, it's definitely got that replay that you just want to keep pushing it. Even to the point where I hear that, you know, that whole coming back from the commercial break that's been taken, where it feels like you're part of that Saturday cartoon, right? Yeah, that was probably the most feedback I got at the Northwest Pinball Show is they felt like they wanted to, like it was just taking them back to sitting in front of the TV in the living room and just having a bowl of cereal. So I was joking at the show, I'm like, instead of a drink holder, we should have a cereal bowl holder on the side of the pinball machine. I think that worked really well. Yeah, Saturday morning, I mean, obviously in Australia, it's for us Saturday morning cartoons and we used to do the four o'clock cartoons after school. It was huge. I mean, this was on all the time. So obviously the design, there's some really cool shots. I'm a sucker for spinners. Obviously, the VAC to lock balls looks pretty straightforward and simple, especially for maybe younger kids that, you know, you can walk up to it. You can, it's pretty obvious what you need to do, right? But at the same time, it's a pretty different layout. I love the fact that you've got that upper flipper. I don't really know what the official term is, where the ball guide hits the little stop and then drops down a bit like in Keith's game.
    18:27
    Is there a terminology for that? Deflector, I don't know. We'll call it deflector. Was that something that you wanted a little bit of control for an upper flipper shot? Or did you just like the way it was done in Kong and wanted to put it in? So that's interesting because this layout kind of developed over the different Whitewoods. If you've seen the presentation, you can see how much it changed. But there was a point where I was, you know, I needed another upper flipper shot. And that left side, it had two good entrances and two terrible exits. So I decided, hey, you know, let's make the exit feed the upper flipper on one of them. The other one will turn into a dead end shot. So I think it turned out really good, but I was totally inspired by the King Kong little deflector bumper thing, which he then, he actually got that from Black Rose. So, you know, everything in pinball comes from somewhere else. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. And with the code, I mean, the biggest thing that I've heard from others as well is the code and it's pretty obvious what needs to be done and then your options for keeping energized cubes and all that type of stuff. Elizabeth, do you want to run us through like just the basic of the code? There's five modes. There's a couple of wizard modes. What was your kind of, you've got like this rule of five, right? You want to talk me through that? Yeah. Yeah. So there's five missions and those are your main modes and each mode has three different versions. There's the easy, medium, hard. And then in order to qualify the hard, you have to beat a medium or hard level. And you can, to get to easy, you have to collect an Energon Cube first, which is the spinner. You kind of do that like accidentally, like one spinner will get your first Energon Cube. It's pretty easy. So then, yeah, you start your mission. If you have an Energon Cube, it'll ask you, do you want to make this mode easier or harder? I call it energized or rusted. And then there are five combiners on the game as well, and that relates to the five tech specs as well, which are each a different color, five colors. If you hit a target on the playfield, it lights up one major shot the same color, and that's where you collect your tech spec. Tech specs are good for bonus. They work towards tech spec mania if you collect three of every color. They also act as shot multipliers. If you beat a mode of the same color, it will 2x that shot, which is super fun because it's random. Each game is random which color is going to be associated with which shot. So if you want to 2x your Grimlock ramp, say, you might have to play Autobot Run, the blue mode, or you might have to play Prime Target, the red mode. It's just dependent. You have to analyze the playfield with each game. So even though you have a strategy, you're going to have to be light on your feet and be able to pay attention to what you want to do. So yeah, so that's the tech specs. There's the Dinobot area. If you play around with Grimlock enough, it starts at Dinobot mode, which is an untimed mode. It lasts for the rest of your ball. There's three of them. One starts as a multiball. It's a switch-based multiball. Once you get out of the multiball, you're still in the mode. So you collect switches, and that lights the dino jackpot. The other two are slings. Hit enough slings, it lights the dino bot jackpot. And the other one is objectives, if you hit enough targets or orbits or ramps. If you collect three jackpots in a single ball, then your wizard mode lights for dino destruction, which is a fun little mode. It can be really valuable and that mode changes based off of how you qualify it. So if you do the switches mode, then you're going to have like a switch based dino destruction wizard mode.
    22:23
    And then with the combiners, if you collect five parts of a combiner, you collect the combiner. If you collect three combiners, you unlock combiner multiball, which is, I think, my favorite multiball in the game. It's really fun. You have to hold in the action button to light the build shots and spin the combiner wheel and release the button when it's on it lit. Or just shoot the spinner because it was too hard to explain that. And the instructions, I'm like, people will figure it out maybe, hopefully.
    22:54
    And then, of course, with the missions, One Shall Fall is kind of your first. I wouldn't even call it a mini wizard mode. It really isn't. It's more of your third mode. I call it the Ball 3 mode because most people are going to see it on their Ball 3. But you qualify by playing two missions, and based off of the missions you play, the rules and the mode are slightly different. So Prime Target is probably the best one that makes it so that if you drain, it no longer hurts you. But during One Shall Fall, you're wanting to shoot Purple Shots, which hurts Megatron and takes down his health. If you hit Red Shots, it takes down Optimus' health, which you don't want. You want to avoid the Red Shots. There you go. It's really valuable if you play more missions.
    24:07
    The points are based off of Energon cubes collected, the number of rusted missions played, and the number of modes beaten. And you can get like 200 million in that mode if you rack it up. So that's fun. The soundtrack in One Shuffle is awesome, by the way. Oh my gosh, isn't it? We listen to it all the time. Oh, it's great. That's the Knights of Unicron and we have another song coming in one of the channels. The Knights of Unicron, that's the band that's doing kind of that apology tour, right? Yeah.
    24:40
    They also re-recorded the full soundtrack. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, yeah. It's funny because watching that mode, I've watched a few people stream that, Joel, Elizabeth, you were on that stream obviously, and watching them, they get so into that mode and nearly completing it and then dying at the end. And I'm looking forward to Ralph who's going to stream it this weekend and he gets extremely competitive. So that's going to be fun. But that is like, you know, getting code where code meets, you know, theme integration and music and call outs. Like the voices are so iconic, right? And for me, I remember as a kid, I think what was captivating about these characters was the voices actually is what made them feel important or kind of was the what kept you addicted to the show were those voices. And I think you couldn't do, you know, this like if they said to you, you can have the theme, but you can't have the voices. I'd be like, well, we're kind of wasting our time here. So that to me is like a couple of these modes I've seen and the way that it's been coded really works well with like those animations and those call outs. We just skipped past. I want to see that versus mode, Elizabeth, that you put in, which is fantastic where you've got left and right flipper.
    26:01
    That's only in two player. There's no way of playing that on your own, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm forcing myself to play one player and it kind of stinks. It's really fun. Yeah. I recommend two people play it. Yeah. And then that mode, explain that a little bit. So it a little bit kind of like a Street Fighter Mortal Kombat mode a bit like the Deadpool ones but you got to hit the action button as well You got to fight over that action button Yeah it still in underdevelopment so I still figuring it out But there will be different rounds and those different rounds will have slightly different rule sets like a little different flavor to it So the action button might be one thing during one round and a different thing in a different round. I found it's like I might have overshared before because it was still I'm like I didn't I barely started it. And now I'm like, oh, that idea stinks. I'm not going to do that. Controlling a side flipper with the action button didn't really work very well. But having a build-up powerful attack on the button might work a lot better. So I'm still playing with it, but it's playable and it's pretty fun. But it won't be ready until it's ready. You know what I mean? You can imagine a pinball machine is usually not meant to be played with two people. So making it, being able to play with two people is a little, takes a little balance and a little.
    27:25
    It's funny, we have some fun catch-ups with friends and stuff at like Pinball League and that and running a little side comp where you're playing against each other on the flippers is always all playing together as well. And it's like you always think for me, I play pinball for the fun of it, not the points because I'm not a great player. And I think there was something, I don't remember which interview Elizabeth had said it in, but where you want the modes to be fun. You want to be able to enjoy what you're doing and being able to understand. For me, I think what I've seen so far, the modes look fun because obviously that was the vision you had. Am I correct to say that? Well, of course, yeah. Each mode went under a lot of iteration. Like every single one was one thing before. My first idea is almost that never the right one. Everything from a simple mode like Transformers Multiball, which actually has a lot more complexity than, there's more than meets the eye in that mode. All five missions as well, like I touched it maybe three times each to get it fun and right feeling. So, yeah, a lot of care.
    28:35
    Yeah. And there was a question I was going to ask. The combiner stuff, right? That's happening in the background while you're playing automatically? You collect that kind of by default, right? Yeah. Well, there's two ways to collect combiner parts. One is the side ramp behind Optimus. I wanted that ramp to feel great every time you hit it. So that shot is lit for a combiner part every time you hit it. And a multiball, a single ball, like it doesn't matter that that shot is going to give you a combiner part. And then every third tech spec gives you two combiner parts because I knew that side ramp is hard to hit. I can't rely on that shot for something cool, right? I don't want people to be gated by that shot. So it's actually more you get two parts per third tech spec and that felt pretty right. Once you start getting those combiner parts, you get them pretty quickly after a while. Yeah.
    29:29
    And one thing, obviously, from my understanding, and I think it's pretty straightforward, you play as an Autobot in this. I've always, as much as I like the idea of playing, you could choose Decepticon and Autobots, watching my kids play the George Gomez game, for them it was always like they never picked because they never understood they could pick. And I was like, which is, in a way, I was like, yeah, I get that, but at the same time, I like the idea of picking. But I think you guys have just gone with, you just play as Autobots, right? And there's some kind of side things that are Decepticons.
    30:03
    Yeah, we had a discussion early on about should we do this? Should we pick a side? Should you make a selection? And since we were doing the G1 show, we're like, it's pretty much in the feel of your wanting to align with Optimus and the Autobot cause. So it just felt like there wasn't enough content to like, oh, we're going to do Autobot side, Decepticon side. Well, honestly, there's a lot of content about the Decepticons kicking butt. They do kick butt. They kick a lot of butt. But it just felt wrong to play on that side. But that didn't stop us from, you know, there's a Starscream mode and it's just a bunch of Starscream because Starscream's funny. Yeah. So, yeah, we didn't let it stop us from doing what we wanted and showing what we wanted. But it was a quick like maybe let's make one good game instead of two okay games. Yeah, yeah. Which I think is a great way of doing it. I do like the homage obviously with the LE being like George's with the tooth tone. Yep, yeah.
    31:06
    But, you know, for me I think there's elements of the play field where you look at it and you can see straight away like what's happening and what's going on And what you're meant to do. There are a few things that I couldn't really work out until I kind of watched it back again with some kind of the captive ball. And that's the Bumblebee area, correct? Because obviously he was, funny enough, he was a big part of the show, but I don't really remember him being a big part of the show. Oh, yeah.
    31:38
    Yeah, like he became in the Michael Bay movies and all the other stuff. He's become this kind of bigger character, probably bigger than some of the rest of them. Whereas in the show he was more like a sidekick that you barely really saw.
    31:53
    But we all know Bumblebee, right? So it's that balance of getting him in the game and like how much do you put in him? So he's basically just a ball, a captive ball that you hit and you spell Bumblebee, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, that was a, that's just, like I said, that left area had a lot of changes to it. At one point there was a captive ball. I took it out and I put it back in. And so then we're like, okay, well, it feels right to have it there. Like, it feels fun to shoot. What do we do with it? And that's when Elizabeth was like, wait, we can nod to the 2011 Bumblebee Spell ad does 2x scoring sort of thing.
    32:31
    The homage of that is great because I think it's simple enough to kind of say, yeah, there's Bumblebee in the game without having to, like, create his own separate mode and stuff. I think leveraging... You know what's enough assets to have Bumblebee in the game? Yeah, I was going to say. You've got... Him getting in trouble. And I'm like, get in trouble. Yeah. Yeah, trouble mode doesn't sound as fun. Yeah, he's a GM for distress. He really is. Yeah. There's actually... It's amazing when you watch them back because I've made my kids are 8 and 11. I made them watch the cartoons. Yeah.
    33:04
    How much Dinobot content there is. Yeah. I was like... They could have just called it Dinobots. We're going to do, I'm like, I'm going to make some modes out of these Dinobots, man. Yeah, they're great. Yeah, he's like, yeah, we'll be shot. Yeah. Yeah, even growing up as a kid, I mean, I just think like the toys, they made them so unique. Oh, yeah. To, you know, like the gold and the chrome and just how they looked. I think as a kid watching it, the two characters that obviously Optimus Prime, you know, because he's Optimus Prime, but the two characters that as a kid I remember going, those are awesome, was Soundwave. Mm-hmm. Because of the voice and obviously the Dinobots. And funny enough, I remember when I heard a rumour of a Transformers game, I was like, surely Soundwave's going to lock balls. Yep. Like, what else can he do? And then spit them out, right? Yeah. So I thought that was, was that something that after you watched, because obviously you had said that you didn't know much about it. You obviously did some due diligence on the show. Did you watch that and kind of go, he's got a lot balls straight away? Like, you kind of know. Like, I knew the big characters already, like, just growing up around that time. Like, I was born right after the big craze. But, like, you know, it's just in pop culture. You kind of know a lot of the big characters, and especially the Michael Bay movies, kind of show those off a little bit more. But, yeah, definitely going to watch the show, it's just you just see, like, the obvious things. Like, oh, he's got cassette tapes that come out. We have to do that as a Pimball LLC. Like, it's just an obvious thing. Like, Legatron has to shoot the ball. He's got a big cannon, you know, that sort of thing. So it just came out of the, let's just do the obvious things.
    34:51
    And there's, the obvious thing as well is there's this massive connection between Transformers fans and the movie and the touch song, right? Like, it doesn't matter who you speak to. And ironically, I actually asked some people that aren't into pinball that if you made a video game or an arcade game or a pinball of G1 Transformers, what has to be in there? And every single one of them mentioned that song. It became so iconic in that scene with Hot Rod and stuff where obviously it became, I think they even turned it into a video clip for that song. Was that something where you guys watched the film and I'm assuming Mike in your office said you have to have that song? Or did you naturally gravitate to that song like everyone else did back then? It was a weird thing back when we first started that we weren't sure what content we were going to get. And it was a very like discussion we had with our licensing manager about like, do we want to get the show or the movie? And it seemed like we were either going to get one or the other. So we're like, well, for the content, let's go for the show. Like we can't just have a mode of Optimus dying the whole time. That wouldn't be very fun. And so we like basically were like, okay, let's go full on in the show. And then, you know, later as we got more involved with Hasbro and all of that, it just became like, hey, we want to do a 40th celebration for the movie. Let's get some stuff in there for that. And then that's when like all of that content opened up. So it felt like right to have most of the game be the show. And then we'll have this special side thing be like, okay, now we can go change it. Now it's the movie. And so that's kind of how that came about. And how does that part of the code work? Obviously, that's not in there yet, right? No, we're still working on that one. Yeah. Okay, yeah, as we speak. Yeah. Working on like three things at the moment in terms of not even the actual game, but like the side games, which are equally as fun. But yeah, it's accessible through the gameplay menu. And it's the movie mode. And you can play it and you'll get different music and the touch is a part of it and you get all of the movie assets and you just play through the movie. So it's a self-contained, shorter game, but, you know, I like it how condensed and how focused it feels on, like, this is the movie and it's very... Yeah, when I first got the touch in the game, I was like, oh, I get it. I get it. I understand. It's the future. It was pretty cool.
    37:31
    Yeah, look, I think it's a huge part. I would have been pretty upset. I would have been more upset if that wasn't in there than Optimus Not Transformer. Oh, okay. Okay, okay. To be honest. I'm glad we got that one.
    37:45
    There's a memory, I think for us watching, you know, going to the movies to, oh my God, we're watching a Transformers movie. Little did we know that Optimus died within 10 minutes of the film. But, you know, like it was still a big part of like this TV show is on a massive screen.
    38:03
    There's something about that scene and I think, you know, 80s music, they just don't make music like that anymore. I still listen to stuff like that to this day in the car. It's funny because I would actually listen to that soundtrack constantly while developing the game. It's just like the best pump-up music.
    38:20
    And obviously most Stern games have like a jukebox that you can obviously choose to just play music. I'm assuming that obviously you guys have that on this. But then there's also credits you can use. What are they called again? Oh, Cyber Coins. Cyber Coins, that's it, yeah. Yeah, that one's still under development too and it won't go in. Right now you wouldn't be able to use Cybercoins at all because there's no challenge modes. But in the main game you'll earn Cybercoins and it'll cap at like 10 and then it will give you the option to play a free challenge mode. All the challenge modes are time based so it won't be like, you know, oh another 40 minute game. It'll be your, okay, get this two minute movie mode. Or if you're in a two player game it'll be like, here's the split flipper mode, go play that. So it works the same way as like a replay, only it goes across games. You build towards it across games, so you want to be connected, signed in through IC. So that'll be the way it works. Kevin, can I use those coins to play a wizard mode that I'm never going to see because I'm a short player? Yeah, yeah. Yeah you be able to access the specific modes through a mode called Prime Training which will house all of the specific modes that traditionally what you see as the challenge will be in there I think this is one of the coolest things that Elizabeth came up with I mean she gave up a lot of cool things but this one really cool Yeah, there's a lot. It's so much. I was kicking myself earlier. Why did I promise so much for this game? I should have cut something, but I cut nothing. I think no one's going to hold it against you. You're an extremely likable character, Elizabeth. Everyone's going, ah, she'll be. Yeah, we'll forgive her. Oh, boy. Yeah, no, it's working out. And Mike has got my back, too. So we're doing it. We're doing the thing.
    40:18
    In relation to, like, there was a question I was going to ask while you're talking now. I don't remember what it was. It'll come to me. It happens. The topper. Obviously, there was a leaked photo of the topper. And then the topper, was that a show? Did you guys take it as a show to show people? No. So, wait, like the... The leaked topper. Oh, the leaked topper. Yeah, the one that's behind you on the top of the gate. Yeah, that one. That's another leak.
    40:48
    The one that's unlike of Stern to show a topper before it's out. Yeah. No, we wanted to get it out there because it's pretty close to being shipped right now. So, we're probably soon-ish to announce all the accessories. I don't know quite the date yet, but yeah, we wanted to get some hype behind it and do a little bit more of a, oh, get people excited about, oh, this topper and all the accessories and, you know, show that, hey, they're coming soon. It's not like you have to wait a year now. So that's our thing. Yeah. Did you, obviously, when they told you you were going to be doing Transformers, you already knew that it was going to be in Spike 3, in Spike 3 Cabinet, or did you have to change it later? It was a change later. We started it because, you know, the games take 16 months to develop. So we weren't quite sure where Spike 3 lands. So we actually started the whole project in Spike 2. And that was a big headache for Elizabeth to transfer everything from Spike 2 to Spike 3. Yeah, I mean, it was fine. But there were some bugs. And wow. Yeah, so I mean I started the base code off of Jaws because that's what I felt more most familiar with. I worked in Jaws more than I did on D&D. So yeah, I had Jaws and I fixed a lot of things. So Rick has a lot to thank me for when he goes to his next Spike 3 game. I fixed some stuff about the changeover but after that stuff was figured out. It was pretty smooth sailing. Were there little bits that you did on like Jaws and you did little bits on D&D as well? Like did you take elements of that and go I'm going to like copy and paste that into this and just tweak it?
    42:43
    Not direct copy and paste. Yeah, nothing is like a copy and paste but there's just some plumbing that was nice to have. I knew I wanted a lot of challenge modes and Jaws has challenge modes so I was like yeah that's nice. And D&D has a lot of really driven story elements. Jaws does too. But also the game save, some of the IC stuff D&D really went in. Although the Shark Teeth is kind of like the Cyber Coins. But D&D saving progress across games. So yeah, there's some copy and paste. It's never that easy. But yeah, I take a lot of inspiration from other games and I have all the code bases downloaded on my computer. Pokemon 2, I'm like, how did Tanya do that?
    43:33
    There's a lot of moments where you're like, I did this really cool thing on Jaws and I want to do it just again. I've got to change it. I never go in. Normally I'm trying to avoid. I took a lot of effort to try to not accidentally make a Godzilla. Yeah. Oh, my God. Ding, I made Godzilla. Yeah.
    43:52
    Or like, yeah, even like fighting missions in Deadpool, right? Yeah. Like it was too similar to that. And even though that's fantastic, don't get me wrong. That's good ideas. That's good ideas, you know. It's not my fault that they came up with a good idea. Yeah. One of the things with me, I don't plan my interviews. Like I don't script anything. I don't write notes down. I'm always off the cuff. And I always feel that I get a better interview out of that. If there's anything I've missed that you guys want to talk about, by all means, please. Was there, I think earlier, a question, I remember watching your seminar on John Wick and you originally really wanted to put an upper play field and it just didn't work and you ended up taking it out. Did you try and put one on this and it didn't work or you just didn't bother? No, I didn't bother. I wanted to focus more on an upper flipper because I haven't done that before. So I wanted to see what that felt like. So that was kind of the big challenge. And that was the one thing that like if it didn't quite feel right, I would have taken that out pretty early. But it ended up feeling pretty good and we're able to write some cool rules for it. So, yeah, that would have been one thing though. Like a lower play food of like the Transformers spaceship crashed into the mountain or something? Yeah, the art. Yeah, I don't know. Upper and lower play foods are really tricky in my opinion. I've seen a lot of them and a lot of them are not the greatest or not the most fun or not very well utilized. So it's tricky to do an upper or lower plate field for sure. Do you think there's elements of this where you knew that demographically a lot of the people that were into Transformers were predominantly going to be, like I stated before, people between the ages of 40 and 60, Obviously that you wanted to build a game that wasn't as Kerry Hardy likes to call it approachable because where it's just a simple layout, right? Did you kind of go, I know we're going to get like proper pinball players that are going to play this because the themes for them? Or did you think about the kids as well? I kind of, well, I guess I was thinking in two ways. I feel like approachable is, I think you said it before, is like what's obvious to do. And we know, obviously, I want to hit Optimus. I want to hit Megatron. And we're like, OK, if I hit Megatron, I'm going to start a mode. That's kind of my bozo. Like, just I'm going through the game. Right. And so we wanted a path, the obvious path of, OK, you do this, you do modes, you do a straightforward pinball sort of thing kind of with that device. But then you sprinkle in a lot of other fun things for people that are into pinball or are I'm trying to want to have more weird shots or fun things like that to explore around the game. Yeah, that's a bit of both for sure. And software-wise, it's the same. The modes in the beginning of the game are all simple and easy, and the deeper ones, Rescue Optimus, you have to beat all five modes. That's really hard to get to, and that mode is complicated. Once you get there, it's like, I expect you to be good enough to understand this thing, right? And the combiner multi-wall as well is a little bit more of a complicated mode. While it was the other side, Transformers multi-wall. It's like, all the shots are lit. Have fun. Just go at it.
    47:12
    Transformers doing cool Transformer things. Yeah. We intentionally laid things out in a way that would please both players. Or all three. Because there's also the tournament players that you've got to think about. Is there enough strategy in this game to make a tournament interesting? Is it approachable for casual players? Or the first time a person plays a pinball game, period, is this game going to be fun for them? Or someone in their basement, is this game going to hold up over multiple years and hundreds of plays? Yeah, and it's a weird demographic, too, because you have the older people who have kids and want to bring it into their basement and have their kids play. So you have to have a little of both, really. Hmm. The Energon Cubes, I paused it there because I was going to touch on that, remember my question. So the Energon Cubes, which are on the spinner, you build up. For those that don't know what Energon Cubes are, they're basically what the Decepticon's always trying to steal to, you know, house that power. Now, you've got that written into the code where you can, in your modes, do all the modes have a choice where you can use your Energio Cubes to make the modes easier or you keep them to make them harder and then score better, right? Is that in every mode that you get that choice? All of the mission modes have that choice. Mission modes, yeah.
    48:34
    And was that something that, I mean, obviously it gives you layers, right? So that's a good way of being able to get replay value because you can play it easier or play it harder. Yeah, and it really can drive your game. Beating a mode is really important because you get a 2x shot multiplier and it works towards Rescue Optimus, which is a wizard mode. So there's some modes that don't scale with each other in a way. Microbots is really hard to beat non-energized, but energized is the easiest mode out of all of them. But then there's other modes where it's like, well, you know, like Solar Needle, it's pretty easy, non-energized. I'm not going to energize that mode. I can do it on my own. So it's up to the player to realize and kind of have, you know, you have to think ahead. I don't know if I'll do this again. It was really hard to make three versions of every mode. It took a lot of score balancing. It took a lot of care and thought to know how I wanted to do it. But I'm glad I did on this one. I think it's really like, you know, most people are like, oh, just not energize it every time. I'm like, no, there's reasons. There's reasons to energize most. There's reasons to try to get out after rusted. And yeah, I like having that option in the beginning without feeling overwhelming. It's only ever two choices. You don't ever have more than two choices. I really like, I'm a sucker for those shots where you get multiple shots in the one shot, so inline drops or targets that then you get another shot behind those. So Megatron is how you start modes, right? You knock the drop downs and you start the modes for people that don't know. Is that just to start those five, right?
    50:20
    Yeah. It's that and then it's the final shot on all the modes as well. All the modes, yeah. Yeah. Which makes sense because, you know, he's the baddie, I guess. Great. You're trying to drive him away. Yeah. I lost my camera at the end. I don't know what's going on there. Give me a second. Yeah, I'm trying to put anything else on him. I don't think at the moment. No, I think we try to keep it pretty simple to be like, okay, Megatron does modes. That's pretty much all he does as far as when you hit him. Or you're trying to defeat him and he's the final shot. So to cause less confusion. Look, I'm not going to keep you guys much longer. It's 50 minutes. So I said, do 40. And then in the end, I could talk for ages. Anything that you feel is important that we haven't discussed that you want to mention to the general public?
    51:07
    I don't know, man. You covered it. This was great. I mean, I didn't. I'm really cautious of like, because I know you've done interviews and I'm having to rehash the same questions and stuff. So I'm really glad you guys come on. This is a big theme for me and I wanted to talk about it more and obviously get to meet you guys. Obviously, I've dealt with Elliot before. Elizabeth, I'm a huge fan of what you're doing and I love the energy and the aura that you're bringing to the community. Everyone's a big fan. And I guess the big question is, what do you like to be called? There's a massive thing in the community about, does she like Lizzie? Does she like Gieski? You don't like Lizzie. Nobody likes Lizzie. I don't know where, I think Carrie's the one that wants to call me Lizzie. I don't know where he got that from. But I do prefer Elizabeth. Giski's fine. Giski's also my name. But anything else, I'm like, who's that? Like, what?
    51:58
    But I think one of the, well, I know one of the causes of death in Jaws is Calder Liz, which I think is pretty funny. Accurate. I'm glad everyone is catching on to, yeah, my name.
    52:13
    Well, look, guys, thank you very much. I know your time's precious. I've taken you away from coding which the community is probably going to kill me for it so I'll let you get back there.
    52:23
    But I hope that we can touch base again and I'll get to meet you in person maybe at Expo I'm thinking. Yeah, that'd be great. We'll see, we might see you guys there. We'll leave it with that guys again, like, subscribe,
    52:38
    you know all the usual stuff and we'll see you on the next one. Guys, thank you very much. Thank you.
    52:47
    Thank you.