Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Ep 67: Scott Couldn't Wait...

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 3m·analyzed·Aug 23, 2021
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

SEC charges Deep Root Pinball founder Robert Mueller with $58M investor fraud scheme.

Summary

Josh Roop, Scott Larson, and guest Colin MacAlpine discuss a major SEC filing against Robert Mueller, founder of Deep Root Pinball, alleging a $58 million fraudulent investment scheme involving 300 investors. Mueller allegedly misappropriated funds for personal expenses including multiple marriages, vacations, and a Hawaii condo. The hosts contextualize this within Deep Root's failed pinball manufacturing ambitions, the impact on talented employees, and broader lessons about startup credibility in the niche pinball community.

Key Claims

  • Robert Mueller and Deep Root Pinball persuaded 300 investors, many retirees, to invest roughly $58 million in two pooled investment funds (Deep Root Pinball 575 Fund LLC and Deep Root Pinball Growth Fund LLC) under false pretenses.

    high confidence · Josh Roop, reading SEC filing directly; official SEC order

  • Mueller paid himself approximately $1.6 million from investor funds between 2016-2020 (~$200,000-$320,000 annually).

    high confidence · Josh Roop, citing SEC filing

  • Mueller used over $1.5 million in fund assets for personal expenses: daughter's private school tuition, family vacations, his second and third weddings and divorce, jewelry for two wives, and a condominium in Kauai, Hawaii.

    high confidence · Josh Roop, reading SEC filing verbatim

  • Mueller funneled more than $30 million to 'relief defendant' businesses in non-arms-length transactions without proper investment analysis.

    high confidence · Josh Roop, citing SEC order

  • When questioned by SEC counsel about personal fund usage, Mueller asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

    high confidence · Josh Roop, referencing SEC investigation testimony

  • Deep Root Pinball's manufacturing facility was essentially empty—whitewoods, ideas, good hired talent, but 'not much in the way of product' or manufacturing capability.

    high confidence · Colin MacAlpine, direct witness to facility visit in San Antonio, September 2024

  • Mueller is the only executive of Deep Root Pinball entities and personally controlled product design, marketing, strategic planning, administrative functions, IT systems, and investor communications.

    high confidence · Josh Roop, reading SEC filing Section 39

  • Prepaid customers for Deep Root Pinball machines will likely lose their money unless covered by a third-party guarantee.

    medium confidence · Josh Roop, discussing remedies and recovery options

Notable Quotes

  • “There was an empty room that had zero manufacturing in it that was very, very evident that something was incredibly wrong with this company as it pertained to manufacturing American Pinball machine.”

    Colin MacAlpine @ ~mid-episode — Direct witness account of Deep Root's fake manufacturing capacity; key evidence of the sham operation

  • “This guy was never legitimate. This is straight out of the con artist's handbook where you come in and you over promise and you keep delaying any sort of production because, you know, eventually the wheel is going to stop and you will get caught eventually.”

    Scott Larson @ ~mid-episode — Summarizes the pattern of Deep Root's deception as textbook fraud

  • “Robert Mueller is a con artist. He's a dirtbag. And I am I'm angry at him for targeting vulnerable people. I'm angry at him for hiring people who legitimately are good people who have who have goodwill associated with them and have been using them as human shields.”

    Scott Larson @ ~late-episode — Articulates the moral betrayal: exploitation of both retirees and talented pinball professionals

  • “He literally gets a high off of hearing his name on these podcasts.”

    Josh Roop @ ~late-episode — Speculates on Mueller's narcissistic motivations

  • “Head to Head warned us years ago. Yeah. Ryan. Yeah. Yeah. like Ryan thank you for warning us all two and a half years ago prepare to get deep rooted”

    Colin MacAlpine / Scott Larson @ ~late-episode — References earlier community warnings about Deep Root; 'get deep rooted' as cautionary meme

  • “Can't wait for this to be an episode of american greed and now he can kiss Gary Stern butt and bow down before him and all the other little pinball jerks that threw their mate away”

    Joe Cam (quoted from Facebook) @ cited mid-episode — Hostile community reaction from a known pinball figure; shows divisiveness over Deep Root within the community

  • “When you are not diversified and there's one guy doing all that stuff, you need to be really suspicious.”

Entities

Robert MuellerpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonColin MacAlpinepersonJoe Camperson

Signals

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: SEC filed formal charges against Robert Mueller and Deep Root Pinball entities for operating a fraudulent investment scheme, misappropriating $58M+ in investor funds, and making false claims about fund investments.

    high · Josh Roop reads SEC order directly; filed charges against 'Robert J. Mueller, Deep Root Pinball Funds, and Ryan Policky Services' as defendants; detailed accounting of misappropriated funds for personal expenses

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball collapsed following SEC fraud revelation; manufacturing facility was non-functional (empty rooms, no parts, no capability); all prepaid orders jeopardized.

    high · Colin MacAlpine's direct witness account of empty San Antonio facility with only whitewoods and hired talent but zero actual manufacturing; We Are Pinball's written statement cited 'legal matter affecting Raza' preventing substantive updates

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Sharp negative sentiment shift in pinball community; host Scott Larson received criticism for 'over the top' last episode, but Joe Cam's hostile Facebook comment reveals deeper divisions and resentment toward those defending Deep Root.

    high · Joe Cam's quote: 'Can't wait for this to be an episode of american greed...kiss Gary Stern butt...all the other little pinball jerks'; Josh received camping trip texts at 6 AM from people wanting to discuss; hosts note community was 'divided' on Deep Root

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Talented pinball professionals (Steven Bowden and unnamed 'famous pinball designers') working for Deep Root are now facing uncertain employment and reputational contamination through association with Mueller's fraud.

    high · Scott Larson: 'I have a deep seated compassion for the people he has hired...he preyed on that vulnerability by hiring them...he's using Steve as a human shield'; Colin MacAlpine expresses concern for sweat equity workers

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.191

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast this is episode 67 i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott we just recorded a couple days ago yeah and and you know it seems like they waited for us just to record it was like oh loser kids are done episodes out let's hurry and push out some information about deep root because apparently people think that you and deep root are associated just like uh i don't know flipping out and really good deals with pinball machines yeah we are super yeah yeah nice way to slide that in there hey if you want a good deal on a pinball machine except for raza go ahead and contact jack and nicole many bye bye bye get a top get a topper so and and so with this deep root information Wait, wait, wait. You're also bearing the lead. Who do we have on board with us today, Josh? Well, I was getting to that. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. So what was it? Saturday morning, I woke up and- Six o'clock, I got texted. My wife's like, what is going on? We're camping. I'm like, I don't know. And everyone wants to talk to, well, mainly you.
1:20
And Colin McAlpine hits us up because he was one of the deep six. The Deep Six, yes. And we're like, you know what would be best? We should just record with you. And so who do we have with us, Colin? We have Colin McAlpine. Yay! Woo! The Deep Six. Yeah. Yes. By the way, one of the GCs is gone that Colin put on my machine. So very proud of that. I even kept the glass on. Nice. Took the tilt bulb out and just kind of wiggled the machine around. Yeah, it may have been a few death saves, but it's okay. It's my machine, right? But back to Deep Root. So, Scott, have you gotten a lot of, like, people reaching out to you and saying, hey, I'm sorry, Scott, for, like, criticizing you for being over the top on your last episode? No, but I did get a message from a good friend who he thought – and it was like, yeah, the last one was a little over the top.
2:16
However, he was like, so when are you recording? because a lot of people were just like man you're like i i i've had a i don't know i have i've had a laser pointer on this guy uh since last year uh and it's just it's just an excuse after excuse however we kind of found out why uh everything's going on so okay hold on i've got so scott like the one that really shocked me that messaged you and i know we'll probably get into this yeah was joe cam and cow everyone knows joe cam he didn't message me i shared it on facebook and he actually responded on there so it was your personal facebook page dude it wasn't like loser kid pinball i know so but can i read this comment because it's kind of it's intense it's you know i think it's out there it's fair game right it's in the interweb so if it's in the public can't wait for this to be an episode of american greed and now he can kiss gary stern's butt and bow down before him and all the other little pinball jerks that threw their money away and show great disrespect for gary's accomplishments and keeping pinball alive he was rude and disrespectful and the minions piled on hope you all remove her hope you remove her to probably uh okay hope you all remember to send robert muller birthday cards in prison while you're asking for your deposits back that's a shot right wow fire okay why are we talking about robert muller in prison we probably need to you know educate people oh yeah we kind of so there was okay okay let's rewind let's back up the train a little bit so the last episode we talked about a little teeny announcement that they had where they were delaying, right? That was actually two episodes ago. That was 65. We just did 66. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. Don't forget Tim. Tim was great. Absolutely. So let me, yeah, thanks, Tim. Pinball Loft. Go check it out. Okay.

Scott Larson @ ~late-episode — Red flag analysis: Mueller's total control was a sign of danger

  • “Your money's gone. Money's gone. It's toast. It's done.”

    Josh Roop @ ~late-episode — Blunt assessment of customer refund prospects

    • Steven Bowdenperson
    John Papadiukperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Ryan Polickyperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Company (CGC)company
    Multimorphiccompany
    Heighway Pinballcompany
    P3 (Pinball Brothers)company
    The Last Arcadecompany/venue
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission)organization
    LoserKid Pinball Podcastorganization/media
    Razagame
  • ?

    product_concern: Prepaid Raza customers face likely total loss of deposits; hosts indicate 'Your money's gone. Money's gone. It's toast. It's done' unless third-party guarantee exists.

    high · We Are Pinball statement mentions only 3 refunds offered and no longer available; SEC filing shows Mueller funneled $30M+ without proper investment analysis; prepaid customers have no recourse

  • ?

    historical_signal: Deep Root fraud mirrors historical John Papadiuk/Zidware collapse; hosts note 'history repeats itself' and compare Mueller's con artist tactics to Papadiuk's similar scheme.

    medium · Scott Larson: 'this is almost like verbatim like we keep saying this stuff but i just honestly think of Zidware because i came into the pinball hobby as Zidware was like crashing and burning'; Colin: 'exact same thing that happened to John Papadiuk'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Deep Root's 'Pin Bar' iPad-integrated technology is now forever tainted by fraud association and will likely never reach market; viability in location/arcade settings remains unproven.

    medium · Hosts discuss Pin Bar as 'interesting gimmick' but question whether it's truly groundbreaking vs. P3/Heighway screen implementations; no manufacturer will likely pursue it given Mueller association

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community trust in startup manufacturers severely damaged; hosts call for greater scrutiny of pre-order funding models and warning about 'sight unseen' investments in niche hobby startups.

    high · Scott Larson: 'when are we as American Pinball community going to wake up and quit giving money sight unseen to people'; hosts frame this as systemic pattern, not isolated incident

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Episode establishes lessons for evaluating legitimate pinball startups: Spooky (bootstrap model), American Pinball (diversified management, measured growth), vs. Mueller's red flags (one-person control, empty facilities, over-promising).

    medium · Colin MacAlpine compares manufacturing approaches; hosts praise American Pinball's 'doing it right' model starting small and growing slowly; note Mueller's total control as major warning sign

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Deep Root's San Antonio manufacturing facility was a theatrical façade: whitewoods, hired talent for appearances, but zero actual production capability or parts inventory.

    high · Colin MacAlpine: 'They showed us this room with a bunch of Harbor Freight workbenches with no parts and no wiring and no electrical and nothing going...this is a sham'; 'it was obvious to i think it's been obvious to many of us...how controlling he is'

    • 4:26
    I'm just going to read this again because I love it so much. Okay. Dear Raza customer, we are sorry for the length of time without an update. We have been contacted by a few of you within the last few weeks. The main topics were how many people took the refund offer three. Is the refund offer still available? No. And what's the status of the Raza builds are? No, I'm this is not me interjecting. That's his own parentheses. Yeah. A legal matter affecting Raza arose around a month ago that we did not expect. We were advised by council to not send out any substantive communication while they work to resolve it amicably. We have taken that advice while patiently waiting for it to be resolved. The back and forth has taken much, much longer than we expected. So we are providing this brief update so you understand what the delay is about. I would add that you still don't understand it. We cannot discuss the parties of what the complaint is about. We cannot provide a timeline. What we can say is that we are working hard to resolve slash settle it, and we hope it will be resolved very soon. We will be able to give you a meaningful update at that time. Until then, dot, dot, dot, Robert J. Mueller, Principal Deep Root Pinball. I do like that he said principal as in like the principal of a high school where he's your pal, P-A-L. Should we start calling him Edward Rooney? Oh, my gosh. I think Rooney is more competent than this guy. Okay, so after he sends this out, what dropped on Friday evening, Josh? Like what was this little legal matter that they totally didn't expect to come about? What was it? Let me just read the title here so I don't get this wrong. The SEC charges San Antonio Investment Advisor with operating a fraudulent scheme and misappropriating investors' assets.
    6:28
    The federal government is after securities and exchange missions versus Robert J. Mueller. It's not anyone else. It's just him. Okay, so now I will say all of this. The white hot focus of the sun Is on Robert Mueller I am actually allowing The people who are working at Deep Root And all that kind of stuff This is not a shot at them Because we're going to talk about them too But this is definitely Orchestrated by The principal investment Guy who is Using his Funds as his own personal Piggy bank And let me just point this out to According to the SEC order, Mueller and Deep Root persuaded investors, many of whom were retirees, to cash out annuities and individual retirement accounts that they held with other investment companies and invest in two pooled investment funds they advise.
    7:35
    Mueller and Deep Root told investors the funds, the Deep Root 575 Fund LLC and the Deep Root Growth Funds Deep Fund LLC, would invest in life insurance policies and Deep Root related businesses to provide relatively safe returns to investors. He created the fund in 2014.
    7:57
    So he has a whopping how many investors? 300. Yep. Who invested roughly $56 million. Okay. I round up. I thought it was $59. Oh, that's true. Okay. Sorry, $58 million. Excuse me. I misspoke. Sorry, Bobby.
    8:16
    $58 million. I just misplaced a couple million dollars. It's okay. Which, by the way, I'm just going to break it to you. If you're in financing and you're only managing 300 people with $58 million, that's actually not that much. I'm just kind of breaking it to you. But the regulator says Mueller paid himself roughly $1.6 million from 2016 through 2020 using investors' funds. Now, actually, OK, so that's – divide that by five. So he's well-paid but not extravagantly paid. However – A quarter million a year. Yeah, OK. No, sorry. $200,000 a year. All right, all right. However, Robert also used more than $1.5 million of the fund's assets to pay hundreds of personal expenses, including his daughter's private school tuition, vacations with his family, his second wedding, his second divorce, his third wedding, jewelry for both his second and third wives, including engagement rings and wedding bands for both wives, other lifestyle spending for and by his family, and to buy a condominium in Kauai, Hawaii, said the SEC in its statement.
    9:33
    Wow. Wait while we work to resolve this amicably. Seriously. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Again, I'm going to borrow a line from Jeff Foxworthy. it's this is bobby it's like calling bobby godzilla an itty bitty lizard like this is the sec the sec does not come knocking on your door because you like bought takeout at mcdonald's they don't care but if you are stealing funds from all these people then they're gonna care and I'm kind of wondering how much of this money is left. I legitimately – What's the old saying? You never want to owe money to the government or to the mafia, something like that? Yeah. I thought it was a fool and his money soon parted. Yeah.
    10:30
    Okay. So, Colin, what we want to know in the NDA, did you have to like not talk about the big money room? Like was there like a Scrooge McDuck room? Yeah.
    10:40
    Scrooge. He got his first dime. Lucky dime, yeah. There was not a giant room that had a bunch of gold coins in it with an encased first dime. There was an empty room that had zero manufacturing in it that was very, very evident that something was incredibly wrong with this company as it pertained to manufacturing a pinball machine. Yeah.
    11:40
    have a company right here in Texas. They're going to, you know, in addition to Multimorphic, but this is going to be bigger and they're going to be manufacturing stuff. And I'm excited about this. And then I went down there and discovered that they had a lot of whitewoods and ideas and supposed licenses, a lot of very good people that they had hired, but not much in the way of product. and not mention the way of capability of making things. I mean, so I work in a manufacturing company. For the last, until recently, I joined the marketing team. But prior to that, I worked for over a decade in my company, managing the company supply chain. I worked for prior companies in managing their supply chain and procurement. So I know a little bit about manufacturing and supply chain. Not necessarily pinball machines, but just in general, There are some things that are universal from – But in your aspect too, how big is your company that you work for that you manage marketing for? I would assume bigger than what Deeper was trying to obtain, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now, the company – we're not a huge company. So it's not like we're a private, especially chemical company. But between them and other companies I've worked for, other companies I've worked for were in the couple billion dollar valuation prior to that. And then prior to that was like maybe more like a $10 to $50 billion valuation company. So a lot bigger than the 300 investors. But the point being is just this – even that, even after going there and commiserating with the other deep six and sitting in this hotel lobby after we'd been there going, what is going on? What are they doing? They just tried to show us this brand-new product that was sadly falling all over its face. They showed us this room with a bunch of Harbor Freight workbenches with no parts and no wiring and no electrical and nothing going. And just – I was like, OK, this is a sham. I mean they may – there are lots of different theories at that point as far as, OK, maybe he's trying to develop a company and then sell it off or parlay the IP in some way because obviously this is not a manufacturing company. but in my wildest dreams i could not have imagined this i mean i i was never all that impressed in terms of uh you know mr muller when i met him uh he's very impressive in terms of his ability to talk and his ability to sell an idea he's a salesman in my opinion at heart even though he's a lawyer apparently at least for now i doubt he's going to be retaining his bar status but that's Former. Yeah. But I just – this is – I'm so disappointed for those people that work at Deeper Pinball, my friend Stephen Bowden, other people that I met when I was down there. Obviously, there's some very famous pinball designers that work there. And so I – first and foremost, I feel bad for them. But let me just add on to that. This is – it's not surprising that this is coming to a titanic level ending because the nature of what they were doing and how they were doing it was just – it was a debacle. And this just – man, this is debacle squared reading this stuff from the SEC.
    15:31
    You know crap is hit when the – crap is hit the fan when the SEC gets involved. Well, the funny thing is when asked – so all those things I talked about, including the – I love the second marriage, the second divorce, the third marriage. Oh. I would love to be the copywriter who was writing that When asked by the SEC counsel during the investigative testimony about his use of the fund asset to pay for these personal and family expenses Mueller asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Okay, more from the article. Indeed, Mueller, the order states, funneled more than 30 million of the fund's assets to the relief defendants in non-arms-length transactions whenever he determined the relief defendant businesses had expenses that need to be paid. And he did so without any analysis as to whether such transfers constituted suitable investments for his client funds. So he basically was using this as like a piggy bank to do whatever he wanted. Yep.
    16:43
    Okay. And so just to clarify, this is in the official SEC filing. The defense are listed as Robert J. Mueller, Deep Root Funds, and Policy Services. And then those are collectively the defendants. And then Deep Root Tech, Deep Root Pinball, Deep Root Studios, Deep Root Sports and Entertainment, Deep Root RE12621 Silicon Drive, and each and then some other people, a family member and somebody else. Those are all the relief defendants. So Deep Root Pinball is certainly wrapped up in this. This is not just a – of course, this stems from Mr. Mueller. Don't get us wrong. But the – yeah, unfortunately, deeper pinball is certainly tied up in this.
    17:33
    Yeah. Okay, so Colin, what are your feelings over this? Well, other than what I've already stated, I'm just – I'm first and foremost disappointed for the people that have poured their sweat equity into working on pinball machines. and ideas and new designs, rules, what have you, that are working for Deep Root. I don't envy what they're going to be going through over the next week or whatever, beyond that. So that's first and foremost. The second thing is this feeling on this is when are we as a pinball community going to wake up and quit giving money sight unseen to people that just go and ferret it away onto their first marriage, second marriage, third marriage, photography, other house. I mean I'm referencing Skit B now.
    18:42
    When are we finally going to wake up? yeah well this is almost like verbatim like we keep saying this stuff but i just honestly think of zidware because i came into the pinball hobby as zidware was like crashing and burning me a little bit before but it's almost like the exact same thing that happened to john papaduke like i even remember similar claims and i'm glad john's not involved in this i just it it really history repeats itself and it's just it blows my mind that that this is what it's come down to again and and don't get me wrong like i'm i'm all for new pinball companies and i think spooky you've either got to do one of two ways like spooky did eating macaroni and cheese and and building it from the ground up if you don't have the money to do it and and starting small and and slowly snowballing right or you've got to have a ton of money and you've got to do it right and either a invest into an existing pinball company or or build your own and i guess that's what robert was trying to pull okay quote pull off no sorry in the beginning the first two years of talk that's originally what it was really we're not going to take pre-orders we're not going to do this you don't you don't remember this one oh oh no no no i i'm waiting for my response go ahead i I get you. But like that's – granted, like it was too good to be true. And then when the pre-orders thing happened with them, it just smelled funny. But honestly, I don't think there's any other way, which really sucks because pinball, in my opinion, is very niche. I think we've all agreed that it's a very small industry slash community. And so you're going to have to find someone that's a diehard fan of pinball to either do like what what Charlie Emery and his family did or I can't remember his name now. The dude that ended up coming in and buying like the lion's share of JJP and is doing that with Jack Winery now, you know? Okay. Now, you're also overlooking American Pinball, which I would argue is a startup company that does have some money behind it, but they are doing it right in that they're starting small and they're slowly growing too. So I would argue that American Pinball is actually doing something that if Deep Root were ever a legitimate option, that's what they had done. But you do realize that American Pinball originally hired John Papaduke. They did, and once they realized what a snake in the grass that guy was, they jettisoned him from the company, and they started over. But American Pinball is tied into another company as well. It's just not American Pinball. It's like a subsidiary. Apparently, Deep Roots tied into another company too, just not legitimately.
    21:43
    Okay? But like CGC. Like look at – CGC was already making cabinets. They were already doing the stuff for Stern and they broke away. CGC is completely different. CGC is they are an entertainment machine building thing. And they also have – they have licensed the ability to do these remakes. So that's totally different. But, okay, for anybody who believes this guy was legitimate from day one, this is your wake-up call. OK, this guy was never legitimate. This is straight out of the con artist's handbook where you come in and you over promise and you keep delaying any sort of production because, you know, eventually the wheel is going to stop and you will get caught eventually. If you are managing this much money, eventually something's going to happen. And so Robert Mueller is a con artist. He's a dirtbag. And I am I'm angry at him for targeting vulnerable people. I'm angry at him for hiring people who legitimately are good people who have who have goodwill associated with them and have been using them as human shields. which is why a hundred percent why he hired Steve Bowden because Steve is a great ambassador and so he is using Steve as a human shield and to hide behind that and say oh no no we're a good company look we have Steve Bowden and he followed in the footsteps of Skit B of Zidware of all these things because this guy's a con artist and he knows what an easy mark is and so if you have a history in a small niche hobby, which pinball is, of people throwing money at something on hope that they will get something that's magical, that reminds them of that 90s Bally Williams feeling, then they will do it. Even though I would argue that better machines are being produced now, people still look at that and say, oh, look at the shiny thing that J-Pop did a long time ago, And so we're going to do that again. And so I, my, I have a shock and anger against Robert Mueller. I have a deep seated compassion for the people he has hired because these are people who it's a small hobby. They want to be involved in pinball. They could be doing other things in other industries, but this is their passion. And so he preyed on that vulnerability by hiring them down there and bringing them down. And he also has preyed on the vulnerability of these retirees who this guy is a salesman and a con artist. And so he's convinced them to give them his life saving, give him their life savings. And at the end, he's going to go to jail. He is a narcissistic egomaniac who is a sociopath who has no conscience whatsoever and doesn't care what kind of carnage he's left in his wreck because he lived a high life for eight years.
    25:09
    And Deep Root was never, ever, ever a legitimate company, period, end of story. and the other thing just just to re-emphasize also in terms of the the you know control i mean it was obvious to i think it's been obvious to many of us as we listen to uh to muller's you know talks and everything else about how controlling he is and it was evident in the visit that we paid down to san antonio last september and how controlling and how he has he wants to have his hands in everything. So to me, once again, this is all on Robert Mueller. This is not on the other people that he hired. And even in the SEC filing, it says, Mr. Mueller is in section 39. Mr. Mueller is responsible for Deep Root's product design, marketing, and strategic planning areas, as well as operation and management of multiple entities. Robert is the architect and implementer of all products, services, or designs, Policy Services, Inc. That's the parent company. Or the deep root family of companies have marketed or sold. He has also personally managed all aspects of the administrative functions of the enterprises, supervised all investor or client care, handled most of the clerical and processing of investor or client paperwork, designed the IT systems and client portal, and is chiefly responsible for the growth and success of all the enterprises. Robert also has backgrounds in accounting, valuation, information technology, graphic design, marketing, programming, and other technical areas. Robert J. Mueller is the only executive of the company.
    26:57
    Yeah, that's not a good sign. When you are not diversified and there's one guy doing all that stuff, you need to be really suspicious yeah i don't know it brings up two things i know we talked a little bit about this before the podcast but i just on a moral ground it really it really bothers me um for reasons i'm going to leave unsaid but i just i i like scott was saying i must be a good guy because this this really bothers me that people would take advantage not only of of goodwill and old people and stuff like that. It's just, it's terrible. Like, I just don't get it. I don't get, well, I get that there's money. I get that you wanted to go play in Hawaii on other people's dimes. But it just, it's so messed up. Like, Robert, if you're listening. He's not listening. He doesn't care. Are you kidding me? He gets, he literally gets a high off of hearing his name on these podcasts. I bet he's just gobbling this up right now. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he's finally realized that like, I told you, he probably was literally like, if we talked to him, he probably was like, I told you guys, like, it was a ball gag in the butthole. That's what the, that's what the logo is. And I told you from the very beginning, that's what I was going to do to you guys. And so like, I know we're family, family podcast. I apologize. But like, seriously, like head to head warned us years ago. Yeah. That's right. Ryan Seaworth. Yeah. like Ryan C thank you for warning us all two and a half years ago prepare to get deep rooted yeah is it sad maybe we shouldn't feel bad on a moral level it is so messed up I do believe in forgiveness and all that jazz but like dude I hope someone throws you a really special time in prison that's all I gotta say Wow. Okay. Wow. He's going to a white-collar prison. Yeah. Hey, I don't need to know. I do not need to know. Not at all.
    29:15
    But – Yeah. No, it's just – No, this is what bothers me. This is another thing that bothers me. There's so much of the community that's been divided on this personal subject of Deep Root, and it's because, like you said, They've taken people that are good in the community that have built this community for years, that have helped this industry grow because we care about it. It's a product that – I mean, maybe I'm getting too mushy on this, but I'm like – I feel like you can't look at one person in the pinball community and be like, that's what defines this community. It's such a hodgepodge of every aspect of the high school spectrum, right? You've got the jocks, you've got the nerds, the goths. There's just so many people. They were all brought together because of this wonderful thing called pinball. And when we're playing pinball at tournaments or with friends or just at the local scene, all that just drops. It doesn't matter if you're Mormon or if you're pagan or black, white, gay, straight. It doesn't matter because we're all there to play pinball and enjoy it. And it just bothers me so much that you took people of this community because you knew they were good. You knew they'd help your image, and you used them to take people's money. And even like – I don't know. Like listening even to recent episodes to people that I really respect and still defending this company, it bothers me because – not them in general, but because they've still got the goodwill. They've got the good faith of this company, and they are protecting their friends and the people that they love because they know that they are good people. and Robert Mueller has taken advantage of that. And it just has bothered me so bad. Like I don't know what else to go with it. Like please, someone else talk. Well, so let's pivot. So I mean I think we've beaten this dead horse, and Mueller is a dead horse now. So let's talk about like so where does it go from here? Like what lessons have we learned? Well, yeah. Well, not less lessons, but first and foremost, unfortunately, the people who had money, that are, you know, they prepaid to deep root. I hate to break it to you unless you had like some third party that you can try to make a claim against that they'll cover you. And then they'll take the hit. Your, your money's gone. Money's gone. It's toast. It's done. I am. It's interesting. I wonder, just throw an answer for you guys Do you think that there any pinball company that is going to be interested in purchasing the IP associated with the pin bar No. No chance. I don't know. That is the problem is I can see viability for it in the pinball industry so long as it's not fiscally drowning. I think they were finding other ways of doing similar things.
    32:09
    I mean look at – If they want to do it, but they won't pay the money for it. They'll figure out like an end around to say, okay, well, the whole point was having the information that you're looking down on. Are there ways of having some sort of way to convey the information? But it's forever tainted with this association.
    32:27
    Yeah. True. I don't know. Like I said, I just – I think it is an innovation. I don't know where it goes from. It's basically an iPad that's connected to – what is so innovative about that? I think it opens up a realm of things it's a touch screen down on a machine yeah but it's cool sure but it's still it's not something you can upgrade say you're playing Game of Thrones and you trap up and you wanted to upgrade one of your houses because there's now an RPG element and I don't know I get that like pinball is mostly on the play field but i feel like there's still some stuff about the pin bar i don't know but i agree it's forever tainted like you can look at p3 they've got their their screen on the play field so you don't have to look up and then you've got haggis who's now putting screens in the card apron so i think we're already heading that way um but i don't think there's anything specifically like tied to that you would have to pay them for their licensing i I think it's an interesting gimmick, but I really don't think it's groundbreaking in that it's not like the iPhone where it was so different than anything else that's been going on. It's really not.
    33:51
    Yeah, and also there's definitely still I think a lot of things that we were – everybody was questioning about the pin bar in terms of its viability in a location specifically. Home environment is a little bit different, but in a location, how well would the pin bar hold up? And I think those questions still remain unanswered, obviously, because the money got spent somewhere else.
    34:18
    Looking at – because I know one of the biggest selling points of the pin bar is then that way you could connect – like you could link it Bluetooth-wise and you could have your account there and yada, yada, yada. But really thinking about that, so long as the pinball machine has Bluetooth and you could link up to it with your phone, you could have your account on your phone. It's not like you necessarily need the pin bar to do that stuff. You don't need that. And everything else associated with them, those Whitewoods, there's no chance they'll ever get made. I mean, it's forever tainted, and I don't want to – I don't really want to bring it up because it's kind of icky. But there's a reason why when John Trudeau went to jail or at least was arrested, Stern distanced themselves from anything associated with his version of Deadpool. Yeah, it got scrapped. Yeah, there's like, no, sorry, we're keeping the license because the license isn't tainted. But anything that that person touched is forever going to be associated with his ickiness. and they're not he's been he's been blacklisted like seriously when was the last time you've heard his name on a podcast like i'm surprised we're even bringing him up but like well okay but we just don't talk about him we don't which is for the better in my opinion absolutely because forever it's kind of a i still have one of his games i have black rose and i still enjoy it because it doesn't create that association with me because i had it way before i knew who john trudeau was but it's just forever. The association with it will forever take any of those things. And I doubt that any of those whitewoods really are that groundbreaking. Yeah. I really doubt that. I think it was just more of a, Hey, I'm really calling you and I and Josh, we could all get together and make a whitewood in a week. It may not be a great whitewood, but it would be a whitewood. well and i think the thing that we've talked about more and more lately is is design is wonderful and everything but the game of pinball has evolved so much over these years that almost design is kind of one of the smaller aspects compared to everything else between code and like don't get me wrong like i would say that it's part of the pillar but you can't have a code that completely resurrects an unfun layout but walking dead okay walking dead it's not an unfun layout it's a hard layout but um you like if i if your average person designs a bad layout that just has brick shots doesn't really matter how good the code's going to be because eventually people will just be like yeah i'm not gonna and i don't like it and there's a few that i've played recently that i'm not a huge fan of so yeah true the code's okay but i think the layout's a mess so i guess my biggest question is i know that there's obviously gonna be updates from here on out for deep root but is this kind of like can we just please be is this like the last episode we can talk about them like i'm so tired of talking it's done there's no chance that the only the next episode is going to be Robert pleads guilty and goes to jail or Robert goes to trial and goes to jail. But we all know where the end is going to be. Yeah. But what about the pin? What about the pin pod, guys? Oh, the pin pod. Yes.
    37:48
    Good cramming. What about that floating that that that weird home version of the super deluxe whatever that they were doing and we're just like a floating back box. Yeah. You're like, that looks like a Walmart display. Yeah. Where it's stuck up on the two poles. Yeah.
    38:06
    Yeah, it was certainly different. Difference? Not necessarily good. No. But I really – Colin, there were – I think there were enough red flags that if people were holding out hope because they are fans of what John Papaduka has done in the past, they were hoping that it would eventually come to fruition.
    38:32
    Sure. At the – everything that came up in the meantime just had to have been one more log to the fire of saying there's something else going on here, guys. This is – this does not feel legitimate.
    38:45
    And they had to – Well, and he certainly – he was throwing a lot of money at it, but it turns out that money is coming from somewhere. It wasn't his money. It was Laverne and Shurles from the 80-year-olds who now are destitute because they don't have any money left. Because I guarantee when they finally tally up how much he's spent versus how much is left, there's going to be very little left. Anyway, I really hope people who are working at Deep Root are able to find better landing spots than where you've been. And I hope you don't feel that any of this criticism is aimed at you because I think that you guys were doing your best in a challenging situation. Yep.
    39:30
    Any final thoughts on Deep Root? Or time to wipe and flush? Crapper get off the pot. I think we already did. So meanwhile, okay, let's talk about something fun now, okay? Something else fun did happen, and it was announced on Friday, or at least it was confirmed that we've all heard. What all was confirmed? Because I've heard quite – I don't know what's rumor and what's true. Okay. They confirmed that the next game is Cactus Canyon, a remake of Cactus Canyon. From CGC, right? From CGC, yeah. Surprise! Yeah, woo! Are any of us shocked? No.
    40:17
    Okay, it's taken a long time to get to this point. So I appreciate that they are not the type that are banging a drum and putting out banners over-promising and under-delivering. If anything, CGC has under-announced and over-delivered on all three of their remakes.
    40:39
    So are you guys excited about this one? I'm not I think Cactus Canyon is a fun gimmicky pin I do enjoy much more so the Cactus Canyon continued which I don't know I didn't go into the detail of their announcement if that's something that they're going to be offering if they've worked with I think it's with Eric It was Eric Pripke who did the Captus Canyon Continued So I'm not sure if they're working with him Because I mean All honesty guys First off layout wise It's your basic Fan layout And it is very very very Similar to The Medieval Madness Or Monster Bash There's nothing revolutionary about it It has some cute quotes or whatever that are kind of funny and make me laugh when I play it. Lock is lit and so am I. Yes, but not nearly the extent of a Medieval Madness or an AFM or now the modern ones that make me laugh like Deadpool. Yeah, Deadpool is hilarious. And so I just – man, it's a struggle for me because I wish the best for Chicago, and I wish the best for them in success in their remakes. And I have no doubt there are going to be a fair amount of people that buy this thing. And based on the Chicago Games past, they're probably going to be pleased with their product that they're going to receive. And so that's great. And I love that for the pinball world. I mean, we've seen that now also with, you know, more recently as well with Haggis doing a remake of Fathom and announcing they're going to do other remakes of Bally. Other Bally, you know, hopefully, you know, famous, really good titles. So I'm excited for all those people that who place a high value on Cactus Canyon and want that product for their home or location or what have you. and I'm very confident based on now multiple pins that CGC is going to execute and they're going to deliver and that they will be fun to play and it'll be more of that title that's out there. Me personally, I'm not a big fan of it but I'm happy that there is a reputable company that we know can manufacture product is going to make something that people want and sell it and there are going to be more people in the pinball community. They're happy with another pinball machine that they can add to their collection. So I've got to ask you before you wrap it up, Colin.
    43:28
    I've heard this rumored. It's been confirmed. It's been denied. It's yada, yada, yada. What if – because we have heard that Lyman Sheets has left Stern Pinball, and it's been a while ago that he did it. What happened if he left to go to CGC to finish Cactus Canyon? Would that then make you feel more appealed, especially where Lyman was part of Attack from Mars and Monster Bash and Medieval Madness? Would it draw you more into Cactus Canyon, or is it – it is what it is, and you don't think code could fix it? No, 100%. If Lyman is on board with revitalizing Cactus Canyon, oh, yeah, then it's going to be good. I mean, you just talked about it. I mean, The Walking Dead – I mean, actually, I don't mind the layout of The Walking Dead. I think it's kind of a cool layout. But it was the initial rules, because they were in their infancy, were pretty bland. They were rough, yeah. And not fun to play. And then now it's arguably, in my opinion also, personally, one of the best. And so, yes, if Lyman, if that's something that actually were to come true, and that Lyman were working on revitalizing Cactus Canyon code and the rule set to make it more enjoyable, And, you know, that, oh, yeah, game changer for sure. You're like, then all of a sudden I might actually be interested in buying one. Correct. I have two friends that want LEs already. And so at least they're within two miles of me. So I'm not planning on buying one right now just because I'm trying not to overlap everything. But I'm excited to play it because I don't have enough time on it on the original. And so I guess I'm holding out hope to see what it's going to be. I'm sure they're going to do something big on the code.
    45:21
    I sure hope so. And with just like Colin said, with their history, they have done an amazing job of sprucing up a classic design while keeping that classic design classic.
    45:39
    Right? It's not like they put a whole bunch of gaudy stuff on there. The attack from Mars is – it's mind-blowing how good that integration is.
    45:51
    Oh, man. Yeah. And what – my Medieval Madness, I dare say that if I sold every game except for one, I would still hold on to Medieval Madness because that's the one that everybody up to Colin level of play liked that game. I mean Colin could – he could definitely rule the kingdom every time just because it does have that slightly easier layout than Attack from Mars. And an elite player can boss it around. But everybody else goes down, and when that castle explodes the first time, they're just like, I want to do that again. I agree with you guys. I'm excited to see if there is new code. Well, we know that there definitely is new code. If Alignment Sheets is on it, I want to see it now. It went from a game that I was just like, meh, to, okay, this could be good. Let's see what this is now. And we keep hearing rumors of they've revamped things on it, and it's just – it's looking more and more good. And that honestly could be people just trying to get you hyped.
    46:59
    Yeah. However, they've done such a good job about not overplaying their hand. In many ways, they could probably tease it a little more than they are, but I think it'll be a hit. and they haven't. However, the next, uh, remake that I would consider buying would probably be white water. Um, I don't, I don't know about theater magic. I don't know about, and these are all games that have been talked about for years, but theater magic or tales of the Arabian nights or those other ones Uh I think the one that would push me over the edge would be Whitewater Yeah you can buy them all even though I like to and my wife thinks I do But you can't buy them all.
    47:47
    So with their announcement this weekend at Southern Fried Gaming Expo, do you think we see – I mean, we're two months away from Pinball Expo. Do you think we actually see Cactus Canyon at Pinball Expo?
    47:59
    I think that's their target. That's probably the next big – that's the next big one. And so I'm looking forward to trying it at Expo.
    48:08
    Yeah, if I were them, I would definitely have that as a target, to have that ready to go and playable, at least in the small number amount, to be able to take it to that show that's right in their backyard. Yeah, because the next one really is kind of Texas Pinball Festival, and I think they'd want to at least develop more of a buzz. I mean, that's, you know, that's almost, what, eight months away? Mm-hmm.
    48:37
    Yeah. Well, and historically, honestly, companies that aren't stern usually reveal at Pinball Expo. I mean, look at JJP with Pirates. They also did it with Wonka. CGC did it with Monster Bash. I mean, it's not uncommon for a pinball machine to be ready to play at Expo. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they pull, like, an online reveal video. I mean, really, Gums and Roses was that way. Hey, check this out. It's an online reveal and they can control it and edit it quite easily that way. That may be the way to go.
    49:13
    Yeah. Yeah. And your reach your reach of an online reveal is pretty good now. Oh, yeah. Especially with all those Western magazines they'll tie into. what what was the last actual good hit western movie you can think of wow forgiven yeah they don't do a lot of westerns because they're kind of expensive to produce and uh yeah they typically don't be big hits um maybe unforgiven the two westerns that i think are awesome and i just love watching i think silverado is a great one and that's what in the 80s uh i think maverick with mel gibson and joey foster is really funny yeah um you can't forget the good the bad and the ugly that okay but that's like yeah so many awards that's you know that's from what the 60s well 60s 70s around there yeah that's that's the problem though is like did you know one of the longest running tv shows of all time was gun smoke it has the most episodes of any tv show that because my grandpa would watch it my grandpa still does watch it my last grandpa yeah it's always on when we go over to his house i'm like did this show ever end they just they just keep filming it in black and white and just putting other people in as the character. Okay, it wasn't... Was it Bonanza or Gunsmoke or something like that? But they... Yeah, okay. Okay, so there was True Grit. That was okay.
    50:51
    I'm looking at the top 100 from Rotten Tomatoes. I didn't watch this, but Django Unchained. Wasn't that also kind of a Western?
    51:03
    Jamie Foxx? Yeah, I didn't watch that. Yeah, it was okay. It wasn't great. The Ballard of Buster Scruggs. Yeah. Wow. That was unique. Yeah. 310 to Yuma. Oh, sorry. Yeah. 310 to Yuma. It was okay.
    51:22
    It's just – yeah. They just don't make them like the – Bone Tomahawk. Wow. That just sounds odd. Yeah. It's a theme though that people – so without going to a direct movie license, it is a theme that resonates with a lot of people. And it also resonates in my opinion with a lot of people probably overseas as far as the stereotype or whatever of Old West America.
    51:58
    And so I think that helps their cause. and you know the other aspect of it is there are you know as we talked about there are a lot of really funny call outs in cactus canyon yeah it ties into some of those scenarios even some of the you know they're like voice actors obviously but like some of those that try to do the john wayne and whatnot you know yeah it just there's some good stuff in there no i i i'm excited to see it and whenever it's done the good news is is that they are not going to announce it until it's done. And so there is not a announcement and then three years later you can buy it. That's not how they work. Correct. Yeah. Correct. So yeah, it'll be another, it'll be another, you know, it's, it's another pin that's in the genre of a, you know, first off, you know, fan layout, but the other aspect of it, the most recent pin that reminds me of it is Elvira House of Horrors. It is a pinball machine that by design has very wide shots. And Cactus Canyon is the same way. And so there is an approachability to Cactus Canyon for a wide variety of skill levels that I think is more palatable and more attractive to a wider skill set. People can step up, and most of the time when they flip that flipper at the ball, it's going to go into those one of nice wide shots. Yeah. The shots are, as opposed to like two-thirds up, the right half of the play field, they're like three-fourths up. But they are wide, absolutely wide shots. You're not going to have too many bricks on this one.
    53:36
    See, I kind of wish. I kind of want this game just because of where I live. It'd be really cool to have a Cactus Canyon. Shouldn't that be? In our Western Heritage Museum. Because I don't know if a lot of people know this, but Vernal was actually where Butch Cassidy, that was some of his stomping grounds. Same with Doc Holliday.
    53:57
    There's a lot of Western history in this area, and so it would be cool to have that here. We even have a dedicated Western museum where you can see the old pioneer coaches and stuff like that as well. Well, you should have a Jurassic Park there too. I know. Wouldn't that be great? I do have a Jurassic Park here. There you go. It's just not out in public.
    54:17
    All right. Well, I'm excited. I think they'll do a great job of it and just whenever it happens. I'm glad it's finally announced. It's not like a, hey, we think this is going to happen because who knows? It could have been a bait and switch, but unlikely.
    54:33
    I'm still remembering. What was it? Three, two years ago when Gary Stern got up at, I want to say, Texas Pinball Festival, and they quote unquote announced all their games for like the next five years and there was like hello kitty on there and golden girls and yeah does anyone remember this like i i thought it was brilliant something like that yeah anyhow i yeah no it's good it's good that's what that's what pinball companies should just do and then just like randomly insert ones so like look at spooky they obviously announced ultraman technically a year before they even even unveiled it. Yeah. Well, I didn't even know Ultraman was until they announced it and then I still don't really know what it's about.
    55:15
    Yeah, same. Obviously, you guys need Ready Player One. Yeah, I still haven't seen or read that. Okay, wait a minute. I've read the book but it's been a while ago and I've watched the movie at least twice because I watched it once and then I watched it again with one of my sons. Did they have Ultraman in, oh yeah, one of the Japanese characters, he, his like a robot that he chose was Ultraman, wasn't it? Yep, and he used the capsule, but he was also tied to the same conventions of he could only have it for, what was it, seven minutes? Because seven's very tied into their culture there, and so in their big boss final battle on that last planet, you know, that was he was running up against the timer with the seven minutes. It just, it was great. So, anyhow. Yeah, it's a good movie. So, but yeah, so you have Expo in October. Is there anything, Is there anything in pinball happening in September? Yes. Supposedly that's the next Stern reveal is what I've heard.
    56:13
    We're getting close. Yeah, but that'll again happen online. They get way more clicks from doing it online than in our room.
    56:22
    Yeah, but I guess the point being, though, is October should be pretty – like Expo should be pretty chock full of reveals. Like when we talked to Rob Burke on our show, the gentleman over Pinball Expo that's been going on for years, he said we were at least going to have, what was it, three or four reveals at Expo or before Expo. Right. Well, it is what it is. Yeah, so it may not be the reveal of the pin, but it may be one of the first big in-person physical touch points for those pins. For the pin like for Stern, for instance, and also for CGC where you have the first opportunity to actually put your hands on it and flip the pin. And certainly with Stern, if they announce something in September, everyone knows they are going to have massive amounts of copies, physical copies rolling out the door by October. Well, I was so impressed with – I mean technically the last Pinnberg, they announced Jurassic Park. Was it the week of or the week before? And they had a row of them at Pinnberg. Yeah. And then Keith won. Yeah. It's like, dude, save some space for someone else, man.
    57:38
    But no, I think this expo is going to be – everyone's been dying for something. I guess the biggest question on everyone's mind, do you think that COVID hinders it? Do you think we see another shutdown and the expos take another hit of the rounds, so to speak? I don't know. I've been nervous to buy tickets just because of that.
    58:01
    It could. Our hospitals are back up to 80% to 90% capacity where actually every day we're looking at how many people are in the ICU and whether or not we have to delay some things.
    58:15
    True. Did you see Lollapalooza, though, two weeks ago? What was it, a month ago? 385,000 all there packed in like sardines. I don't know. I don't get this. Like we'll not divulge into this because I know there's a lot of different ideas and aspects of the spectrum. If Expo is still going on, I will go. That's the bottom line. I'm planning on going. I haven't bought my ticket yet just because I'm just waiting to get a little more confirmation on that. But I'm planning on going. Yeah. Well, I have my airplane tickets. We have somewhat have a hotel. I mean we do have a hotel I have to snuggle with some people That was the agreement That is the agreement Actually I will say We should probably get on booking the Texas Pinball Festival hotel too Dude that sold out How many months ago I know but we can still get something around there Yeah there's still hotels Right around there We gotta be there for our acceptance award When we win the Twippy right Booyah There you go. Good luck. No, I'm sleeping on Colin's couch, so that's what I'm doing. Oh, okay. It's only three and a half hours away. It's nothing. It's like Josh and me. We're three and a half hours away, so it's all good. It's two and a half to your house. Okay. Maybe three. Yeah, maybe three.
    59:46
    Well, I think that's about an hour or so. Hey, at least we ended on a high note, right? Yes. Yeah. Good things happen in pinball. I was told to reverse your butts. you know, always say the negative first and then reverse it. But, you know, this is a terrible situation, but a good reputable company with a good pinball machine is coming out. See, that sounds so much better than like a good pinball company is coming out with a good pinball machine, but... And there's a con artist in your midst. Yes, exactly. So. All right. Well, hopefully, we'll probably see in another two weeks. We've been recording a little closer just because of the awesome reveals and announcements, but still looking forward to talking to everybody.
    60:31
    I agree. Thanks again, Colin. Dude, it's awesome having you back on. I didn't know that you'd actually join us. We're like, yeah, come join us. We'll talk Deep Root. Okay. Let's do it. Yeah. It's good to talk with you guys again and thanks for having me on. It's always fun to talk pinball. Well, it's certainly good given you actually saw behind the curtain at Deep Root And it's not really that surprising that it ended the way it did, but it ended it with a spectacular meteor into the ocean that caused tsunamis everywhere. So.
    61:05
    I guess we owe Joe Lemire one now though. Cause you know, he's always like, when am I going to be on the show? Actually, I'm just, I'm just trying to, you've had Colin on twice now and not even me once. What's going on? No, Joe's a good guy. So, so is Jeff. All the Jeffs. I don't know if I know a bad Jeff in pinball. I know a few.
    61:29
    You shall remain unknown. All right. I'll see you in two weeks. Okay. Thanks, guys. Wait, wait. Should we already do our whole outro thing? Yeah, you should. If you'd like to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. If you'd like to get a hold of us on the socials, we are Loser Kid Pinball at Facebook and Twitter and Instagram.
    61:50
    So whatever your flavor is. if I feel like streaming, I do it every once in a while. You can do that at Loser Kid Pinball on Twitch. And also, for those that don't know, we have a Discord if you'd like to join. Yeah, and I joined today. Yay!
    62:07
    The notes, it's pinned to the top of our Facebook. So just go there and whatnot. And if you'd like to get a hold of Colin, how can they get a hold of you, my good sir?
    62:19
    Just reach out to me on Facebook. Just direct message me. Perfect. You can see his big trophy on Facebook. It's pretty sweet. I'm not going to lie. It is pretty sweet, yeah.
    62:29
    So that does it for us. We will see you in two weeks. All right. Catch you later. Bye-bye. Shut up and sit down.
    63:22
    Cutútútútútútút. Cutútútútútút. Cutútútútút.