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Episode 18 - Actor Rich Sommer (Mad Men, The Devil Wears Prada) joins the show! / Ian gets kicked out of the Pinball Hall Of Fame

Nudgecast·podcast_episode·1h 21m·analyzed·May 14, 2026
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Vegas pinball tour with actor Rich Sommer; Ian kicked out of Hall of Fame; critique of staff culture vs. tourism success.

Summary

Ian Jacoby and Shane Told discuss their Las Vegas pinball scene observations, including visits to Pinball Hall of Fame, Cool Dogs, Good Timez Billiards, Player One, and Area 15. Ian recounts being kicked out of Pinball Hall of Fame and critiques its staff dynamics while praising its tourism value and praising technician Frank. Guest Rich Sommer, actor from Mad Men and The Devil Wears Prada, discusses his early interest in pinball, board games, and his unexpected discovery of Nudge Magazine.

Key Claims

  • Pinball Hall of Fame has huge signage near the Welcome to Las Vegas sign that successfully attracts casual tourists and creates first-contact opportunities for the industry

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby describing the Hall of Fame's location and marketing impact

  • Multiple people have been kicked out of Pinball Hall of Fame for various reasons, indicating a pattern of interpersonal/staff issues

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby discussing widespread stories about ejections from the venue

  • Frank is a skilled technician at Pinball Hall of Fame who is friendly and approachable

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby's direct interaction with Frank during visit

  • Pinball Circus was previously on display at Pinball Hall of Fame for several years and is no longer visible on the floor

    medium confidence · Ian Jacoby noting the recent absence of the game, unsure of current status

  • Barrels of Fun has a Pinball Circus and may have capabilities to create parts for the game

    medium confidence · Ian Jacoby recounting proprietary information shown during Barrels of Fun visit

  • Las Vegas venues Cool Dogs and Good Timez Billiards alternate Monday night pinball tournaments and have 9-12 machines each

    high confidence · Shane Told describing local tournament logistics

  • Vegas bars allow smoking due to gambling regulations, unlike Wisconsin and Canada where smoking bans are long-established

    high confidence · Ian and Shane discussing Vegas venue smoking policies

  • Player One arcade bar in Vegas has high-quality maintained games including Stranger Things and X-Men, with Medieval Madness (Remake Merlin Edition) and Alice's Adventures in Wonderland incoming

    high confidence · Ian Jacoby describing Player One venue visit

  • Rich Sommer was one of the first Nudge 100 subscribers and discovered Nudge through social media

Notable Quotes

  • “Pinball is people... the stories and interesting parts is people.”

    Ian Jacoby — Core thesis about pinball community dynamics and what matters in the industry beyond machines

  • “You need to get the people who can't talk to the public like away from public facing roles because you actually got some people there who are quite friendly and are nice.”

    Ian Jacoby — Direct criticism of Pinball Hall of Fame staff management and advice for improvement

  • “Pinball is about building community. And if you're not doing those things, then you're messing up.”

    Ian Jacoby — Statement on industry sustainability requiring community-oriented leadership

  • “I like seeing people get excited about things... someone who was super enthusiastic about something that's not in the mainstream.”

    Rich Sommer — Explains his philosophy of supporting niche projects and what attracted him to Nudge Magazine

  • “Our generation is squarely in between... fully raised without cell phones and then fully adulthood with computers and cell phones.”

    Rich Sommer — Reflection on generational position between pre-internet and internet eras

  • “I played in tournaments with Frank.”

    Shane Told — Confirms Frank's legitimacy as a tournament-level pinball community member and technician

  • “They were like fucking with us in a lot of ways... testing for moles.”

    Ian Jacoby — Describes Barrels of Fun's security/secretiveness approach with media visitors

  • “Maybe you could get some deals on some of those games when they get popped out of them bars smelling like a pack of Marbs... Barry, who owns those games, will never sell those games, so it doesn't matter.”

    Shane Told — Indicates operator Barry's strong attachment to machines and unwillingness to part with them

Entities

Ian JacobypersonShane ToldpersonRich SommerpersonFrankpersonPinball Hall of FamevenueCool DogsvenueGood Timez BilliardsvenueArea 15venue

Signals

  • ?

    venue_signal: Pinball Hall of Fame's prominent signage near Welcome to Las Vegas sign successfully drives casual tourist traffic and creates first-contact opportunities for the general public with pinball

    high · Ian notes the sign is 'insane' and that everyone asks him about it when they find out about Nudge; he observed the venue filling up on a random Thursday and gets very busy on weekends

  • ?

    community_signal: Multiple documented cases of people being ejected from Pinball Hall of Fame suggest systemic staff interpersonal problems that differ from other public venues

    high · Ian states 'There's a million stories about people getting kicked out of the Pinball Hall of Fame' and argues this wouldn't happen at hotels, restaurants, or casinos at similar rates

  • ?

    operational_signal: Pinball Hall of Fame struggles with game reliability and parts availability, particularly for older/unique games like Thunderbirds

    medium · Ian acknowledges technical challenges in conversation with Frank; wonders about parts sourcing for rare machines

  • ?

    venue_signal: Las Vegas pinball scene is nascent but growing with quality operators and well-maintained machines across multiple venues (Cool Dogs, Good Times, Player One, Area 15)

    high · Ian observes operators 'knowing what they're doing' and games being in 'quite high quality' across multiple venues; notes nascent building of scene off-strip

  • ?

    venue_signal: Vegas dive bar venues using smoking-allowed status create environmental tension for non-smoking tournament players and venue operators

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.243

0:00
Allergies, as if there's something coming over me, as if it's something that was meant to be, as if there's something coming.
0:14
Allergies, as if there's something coming over me, as if it's something that was meant to be, as if there's something coming.
0:24
Hey everybody, you're listening to NudgeCast, the official podcast of Nudge Magazine. As always, I'm Ian Jacoby, the editor-in-chief and publisher of Nudge Magazine. With me is my co-host, Shane Told of the band Silverstein and the Lead Singer Syndrome podcast. Hi, guys. That intro music you're listening to right now is the song Cool Bottle Waste Park by Longflame. That's a mouthful. Kind of a jam. Kind of hard to say. Kind of like it. Cool Bottle Waste Park. Say it five times fast. What does that even mean, Cool Bottle Waste Park? They're like repeating it in the song. It's a really weird, like it's a vibey song that I still I've listened to that song probably a hundred times. I have no idea what they're talking about. It's just like, wow, cool, cool bottle, water, waste, park. Yeah, I don't know. Well, dude, it's good to see you. We are we are together in the same room. We don't do a lot of podcasts together. Ian is here in Las Vegas with me. We're in my little bedroom studio right now recording this. Yeah, it's fun. Vegas is totally overwhelming to me in both good and bad. It's just overwhelming in every sense of that word. The spectacle is crazy. It's like the entertainment kind of capital, but I'm feeling – the first day, I'm like, damn, I might be already overstimulated, but now I'm starting to get the hang of it, I think. That's either a good thing or a bad thing. It's funny. I've lived here for three years, but I've had kind of a long history with the city because my sister's lived here for like 20. So from visiting her and I totally – it's never lost on me how insanely crazy this place is. There's nothing like it because I've been picking you up and we've been driving around and stuff. When you go down to the strip, even all the times I've been there, I still look around and I go, this is insane. It's crazy the amount of money there. And you just see things that you've never seen anywhere else, like just anything, like shows or that garden that you recommended to me. Right, Bellagio, yeah. Yeah, like there's so much stuff that it's just like, wow, this would never even exist. And a cool part about having you here is that I got to see some of the pinball spots off Strip, because there's not a lot of – like Vegas is an interesting place. There's the Pinball Hall of Fame, and we actually get into that. We get into that in this episode. In this episode. But beyond that, there's even like a really interesting pinball scene, like kind of nascent building up right now, like in some new spots. We're going to a tournament tonight at Area 15, right?

high confidence · Ian and Rich discussing Rich's early subscriber status

  • Rich Sommer played pinball during a fixation period early in the existence of Nudge Magazine

    medium confidence · Rich explaining his timing of interest in pinball and board games

    • Player One
    venue
    Barrels of Funcompany
    Nudge Magazineorganization
    Nudgecastorganization
    Scott Danesiperson
    Todd McCulloughperson
    [name withheld pending review]person
    Dirtypool Pinballperson
    Mad Pinballcompany
    Medieval Madness (Remake Merlin Edition)game
    Alice's Adventures in Wonderlandgame
    Pinball Circusgame
    Winchester Mystery Housegame

    high · Ian and Shane discuss that Cool Dogs gets more attendance due to non-smoking policy while Good Times is smoky; only ~4 out of 50 regular tournament players smoke, creating conflict

  • ?

    product_concern: Pinball Circus has disappeared from Pinball Hall of Fame floor after years of display; current status (sold, in repair, removed) unknown

    medium · Ian notices the game missing from the floor for the first time; Shane confirms it's been absent; speculation about whether it was sold, is being repaired, or moved to back storage

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Barrels of Fun has developed capability to manufacture parts for rare/obsolete games like Pinball Circus, enabling potential future production or restoration

    medium · Ian recalls being told by Barrels of Fun that 'they might do a remake' or have 'ability to make parts for it now, or something like that, where they couldn't be before'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Barrels of Fun employs aggressive secrecy and counter-intelligence tactics (testing for leaks, NDAs, misdirection) around product releases

    high · Ian describes Barrels testing for 'moles,' showing 'proprietary' information with strict NDAs, and successfully keeping Winchester Mystery House completely secret except to core development team

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball manufacturers are increasingly implementing leak prevention and media control strategies, complicating industry journalism

    medium · Ian's experience at Barrels of Fun with NDAs and 'gotcha' tactics; contrast with successful secrecy around Winchester Mystery House release

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Frank at Pinball Hall of Fame has positive reputation in competitive tournament community despite broader venue staff issues

    high · Shane confirms 'I played in tournaments with Frank'; Ian characterizes him as 'amazing tech' doing 'really good work'

  • ?

    content_signal: Rich Sommer (Mad Men, Devil Wears Prada) is active pinball player and early Nudge Magazine supporter, indicating celebrity/entertainment crossover interest in niche pinball culture

    high · Rich was early Nudge subscriber #1; had dedicated pinball fixation period; references personal history with arcades and board games

  • ?

    venue_signal: Vegas venues with attentive operators (Player One, Cool Dogs) maintain games in exceptional playable condition, suggesting operator competence directly impacts player experience

    high · Ian notes games at Player One and Cool Dogs played 'awesome' and were 'in great shape' while praising operators for knowing what they're doing

    • 2:53
    And then you showed me a couple bars. What were the names? We went to Cool Dogs. Cool Dogs, yeah. Which is a bar we have our Monday night tournaments at. We split the time. Every Monday there's a tournament in Las Vegas. It alternates weeks between a place called Cool Dogs and Good Times. And they're both kind of grimy, in the ghetto a little bit, dive bars with between 9 and 12 machines. What's crazy to me is I did not realize, and this is like a topic maybe we can just explore right now, but smoking is allowed in Vegas in bars. I've lived in Wisconsin like for forever, and we got rid of smoking in bars in like 2002. Yeah, I know. It's wild to me that it's like – Well, yeah, in Canada, shit, it's been gone for even longer I think. So, yeah, it is weird. I mean, the reason that there's smoking is because of the gambling. For sure. So the casinos have smoking and all these like Cool Dogs and Good Times, they are kind of like we call them like video poker bars. Word, yeah. So like you sit at the bar and you play video poker and they're like you're gambling while you're drinking or whatever. It's kind of like an old lady with a cigarette. I've seen that plenty of times even since I've been here. Exactly. Like you think of like a smoky bingo hall or something like back in the 90s, right? Wearing like a pink pullover kind of, yeah. But that's definitely a point of contention, I think, in the Vegas tournament scene a little bit because very few people smoke. Probably like of the, you know, let's say there's 50 people that, you know, kind of a cast of 50 people that will be at a tournament. Yeah. We don't usually get that many, but, you know, if everybody came. The people who come, yeah. I'd say out of that, maybe like four people smoke. Word. So when you're there, you know, like especially good times, it's a pretty tight space. We haven't been to that one yet. Yeah. And there's like even just one guy smoking, you're kind of like, this kind of sucks for a non-smoker. I bring it up because even yesterday when we were at, what's it called again? Cool Dogs. To me, those names sound like Japanese Yakuza movies. You know what I mean? They're kind of funny names. No, but so I'm trying to like that. I keep confusing them because I'm like, good times, cool dogs. It's like someone who's like, they're just picking cool words in English kind of like and combining them. But even there, I think there was someone smoking at one point, either when we came in or left. And I was like, I actually like it. My mom used to talk about this a lot because it was like, it means you're around interesting people. She would always say that. She's like, I like the smell of cigarette smoke. It kind of means. But I was interested because they'll have some nice-ass games there. There was like Harry Potter. They've got a Harry Potter. They've got a Dune. Yeah. But those games around cigarette smoke, I'm like, damn. Maybe you could get some deals on some of those games when they get popped out of them bars smelling like a pack of Marbs. Barry, who owns those games, will never sell those games, so it doesn't matter. Got it, got it, got it. It doesn't matter. That's how it is. I see, I see. Yeah, no, it is definitely a point of contention. I think Cool Dogs gets more attendance, I think, because of their non-smoking, whereas Good Times, because it's a little more – well, also, every Monday night, they also have a pool tournament. Oh. They have a big pool room, but you can't smoke in the pool room, so everybody comes in the bar where the pinballs are, so it's a smokier place. But yeah, that's definitely an issue that's been happening. But tonight at Area 15, there's no smoking there. Sometimes people rip darts in the bathroom. I was going to say, I brought a couple big Cubans. I've seen people smoke in the bathroom because it's so far to get outside, but that's another story. That's hilarious. Well, I'm really excited for that. I also went to a place called Player One here. That's another one? That's like a full-on video game bar. They've got a shitload of arcade machines. It's like you can play Mario Kart at the bar and good craft beer. It's a great place, too. Games are in great shape. The games are in amazing shape. They've got an Alice's Adventures in Wonderland coming, too, in the next week. Yeah, it wasn't out when I was there, but even the stuff that they had there, they had really nice Stranger Things. They had X-Men. New Medieval Madness Merlin Edition is there, too. Yep, yeah, and those games were in great shape. I mean, they played awesome. Yeah, it's really fun to see the scene out here because, like I said, I think it's not like you go to a place like L.A., obviously it's established. Obviously there's all these big things. Here is a little more how it is in the rest of the country, I think, where it's like most of your experience is like you're not going to get more than like 10 machines out of place, but it's actually awesome. And the games that you have here are like quite – the ones that I've played overall have been quite high quality. Like the operators here are like knowing what they're doing. And I'll say this. We'll get into it there. But even at the Pinball Hall of Fame, which has had – it's been knocked sometimes. Oh, yeah. But I actually found the games that we played I found to be overall quite playable. We had a little bit of a hard time on Time Machine. But other than that, the games for me were not necessarily the problems that I had at the Pinball Hall of Fame. We're going to get into that. We won't blow the whole story of what happened quite yet. But give me your overall thoughts of walking into the Pinball Hall of Fame, the vibe, what your overall takeaway is, not talking about the aftermath of it all. Sure, sure, sure. I won't talk about anything specific. But I think the Pinball Hall of Fame is really impressive. First off, obviously the sign is insane. I know it's like dumb to talk about this, but guys, it actually matters. For casual people, what do we, so here's the question, right? What do we want the Pinball Hall of Fame to accomplish? For me, if it's like the Football Hall of Fame or the Baseball Hall of Fame or something, like part of the idea is to honor the history of the thing, right? Part of it is to get casual people to appreciate this thing and understand the history of it. And so in that way, I actually think the Pinball Hall of Fame is doing a good job because guess what? Everyone asks me when they find out here that I run a pinball magazine. Right. The first thing they ask is, oh, you must be at the Pinball Hall of Fame all the time because they have this huge sign. Not only do they have the main pinball sign that you guys see. I tried to take a picture or two of the other one too, but there's another vertical sign as well. And just having those there, even when we were there on a random Thursday afternoon, it was starting to fill up by the time we left. It was like there were more people in there. And if you go there on a Saturday, Sunday afternoon, it's crazy. And I sort of understand maybe why sometimes the owners get mad about all the kids running around because it does get a little chaotic. Sure. But I mean the other thing too that some people that have not been to the Hall of Fame or don't know much about it, it's like it is – it's not technically on the strip. It's right – but it's right by the like main Las Vegas sign, the very famous Welcome to Las Vegas sign. It's right there. Yeah. So it's right in the shit and people see a gigantic thing that says pinball, which is I think ultimately very good for pinball. Yeah, and so I think in that way, it's working as a first point of contact for a lot of different people, and I think we'd even talked about some of the people, like when I've talked to people about the Pinball Hall of Fame here just anecdotally in Vegas, they've been like, yeah, and then I went home and I'll look for the games in their hometown or whatever. Like it kind of – you start to see it more. If you see it there, then you see it other places. So in that way, I think it's good and we'll get into it more in the story. In other ways, I think the interpersonal dynamics of how – like those relational kind of – okay, here's the thing, guys. Pinball is also about relationships, right? We talk about this in Nudge. Pinball is people. Like the stories and interesting parts is people. And so unfortunately, you have to deal with the public when you run a place like that. And I think where there is room for improvement is – He's being so diplomatic right now. I love this. Well, I mean you'll – Room for improvement. Yes, continue. So I think there's like – if someone is – look, anyone who's listening to this probably knows. There's a million stories about people getting kicked out of the Pinball Hall of Fame for all kinds of reasons. I think what that shows me is that there's something wrong that's happening because I don't think all these people are getting kicked out of their hotels. I don't think they're getting kicked out of – right? These people aren't getting kicked out of other things. Restaurants that they're at and, yes, casinos for sure. Yeah. So something is happening here where there's like a disconnect and either it's because it's not being communicated when you walk through the door or because maybe just someone's burned out is what I would say. And so if you know this, like maybe they don't have the self-knowledge about this, but I'm just going to tell you all like at Pinball Hall of Fame, if any of you are listening to this right now, what I'll say is you need to get the people who can't talk to the public like away from public facing roles because you actually got some people there who are quite friendly and are nice. And I talked to that guy, Frank. Frank is an amazing tech. He does like really good work. He took like 15 or 20 minutes out of his work day to like talk to me. And when I tried to shake his hand, he actually did me a solid because he gave me a fist bump. He's like, look, and his hands were like covered in grease. So I'm like, this is a pinball guy. This is like who I fuck with. Yeah, I played in tournaments with Frank. So I'm saying like those people exist there, but that's not who the stories are being written about. And guys like Pinball Hall of Fame, eventually that stuff catches up with you. You can have the greatest spot in the world, but like pinball is about people. It's about building community. And if you're not doing those things, then you're messing up. And that's the only way it's going to survive. Like locally, I'm just saying like they kind of have tourism coming in and helping them out. But I'm saying if they ever like meaningfully care about growing pinball, it's about developing community. And you don't do that by yelling at people. You don't do it by swearing at them. You don't do it by throwing them out and being like viciously kind of like spitting in their faces. That's the shit I'm not into. And that's my full diagnosis of pinball. And it'd be nice if all the games worked. But, you know, I mean, that's hard, though. I was talking. That was one of the things I talked to Frank about is just like some of the stuff. I don't blame you because like, dude, what if a Thunderbirds goes down? Like, who are you going to contact? Like, right. So we're saying Thunderbirds parts. One thing actually, and I hadn't been there in a while, a lot of stuff had been moved around actually. Like a lot of stuff was kind of different. I was kind of surprised about that because a lot of it's been the same for kind of years. Sure. But one thing, I didn't see the Pinball Circus. Yeah, I didn't either. And I wonder what that means. Like did they take it off the floor? Did they sell it? Yeah. Is it just in the back? Are they fixing it? Is there some status? Because why was it sitting in the same spot for like, I don't know, three or four years and now it's not?
    14:03
    Obviously, the true pinheads, nerds listening to this are going to be wondering about that. How long has that game been missing from the floor? I just noticed it right now. Oh, just now? Exactly. So that's why I'm bringing it up. Word. Well, no, because I was wondering because I saw a pinball circus at Barrels of Fun, but I don't know if it's the same one. Aren't there only like three of them? Don't you know? Or two of them? I thought I told you this. So something that Barrels of Fun did when they were messing with us. Also, I actually kind of didn't like this, that Barrels of Fun did this. They kind of tried to gotcha us in like some different ways. Like they were testing for moles. And one of the things they did was they showed us, they're like, okay, guys, we're going to show you something proprietary. Well, you can't tell anyone. I didn't. I didn't really care at all. But they brought us all into this room. And then they're like, we're going to be able, I don't even understand what they're talking about. But they're like, we might do a remake, not a remake that people can buy, but they might have some pinball circuses out there. But they had a pinball circus there, and it evidently worked.
    15:05
    I don't know if it was that same one. That's why I was wondering. I'm like, did Barrels buy that one, or they had a different one, or what? But I think it was something like they were able to make parts for it now, or something like that, where they couldn't be for. But to me, that's like the biggest nothing burger, because it seems like such a stupid game to me. Well, like, right? Because you do one thing. You have it go up the fucking thing. And then when you get up there, then you did it. You know, good job. So like to me, I didn't care that much. But also like Barrels of Fun, I told you this. They were like fucking with us in a lot of ways. Like they put the Goonies ship out there. They're like doing all this stuff. And I'm just like, I don't even like, OK, guys, like, you know, I get it. It was like we're looking for leaks. But then, right, then they didn't even let me know when like Winchester Mystery House is coming up. I didn't leak anything. Where were you all on that? I know. Well, maybe it's working. I mean, they were able to put that out and nobody knew. Yeah, true. Like I think the only person that knew was Jeff from Dirty Pool because he worked on it. You know, like everybody else, it seemed like completely had no idea. So, you know, hey, maybe you got to do what you got to do, I guess, in this crazy pinball industry. Yeah, that's true. And you know what? It's about instilling drama and theater into things, which... Yeah. Into those releases. And maybe perhaps nobody knows about drama and theater more than our next guest, Rich Sommer. That's right. He's going to come on the program, and it's a good one. It's a good talk. Yeah. We do a wide – it covers a lot of different stuff. It covers pinball. It covers nostalgia. We talk about art, even kind of what the acting scene is like. And you guys know Rich. I'll list his credits off in his intro, so you don't need that. But trust me, you've seen him in a lot of stuff, and it was really cool to get a chance to hear how games and pinball intersect with his life. Absolutely. Before we get into that, big shout-out to sponsor of the show, Mad Pinball. Jeff at Mad Pinball, just the absolute best. I bought a couple games from him recently. I got a couple toppers on the way, and every time I do, it's just the best to work with him. And Corbin over there, great dudes. And also, if you tell them that we sent you and you pick up a game, a Stern game, or really, I think any game, you get a free t-shirt. Yep. So directly from us. You can only get it from us. And you get free shipping on all Stern games as well. And I believe it's info at madpinball.com now. And yep, tell them we sent you madpinball.com.
    17:43
    Our next guest is a SAG award-winning actor, comedian, and improviser, and a board game enthusiast who is perhaps best known for his roles in The Devil Wears Prada, The Office, and Mad Men, where he played Harry Crane, one of the only characters alongside Roger Sterling, He seemed like they were having fun doing all that debauched 60s stuff. He's also originally a Midwesterner and one of the first Nudge 100 subscribers to ever exist. Yes. When we found out he played a little pinball, we had to have him on to talk about it. Please welcome to the show Rich Sommer. Hey, Rich. Hi. Hey, Rich. Comedian. I'll take it. It's never been said before, but I'll take it. Well, we're saying you better be funny for this episode. You do a lot of live stage performance and you're funny in those things. But I don't write any – I've never created any comedy. That's – okay. Well, I actually was curious though because we talked about this before we started recording. But I had a really fun trio of beginning nudge subscribers that were like very – it was very encouraging for me to see certain people pop up when I'm sending out just mailers by myself literally in my parents' basement. I had moved back from Detroit. I had moved out of the house with my partner. I was in my parents' basement, and it was just like, dude, I don't know that I made the right decision after my MFA at all to do any of this stuff. But then it was you were in the Nudge 100, Scott Danesi, who I'm sure listeners will know from Total Nuclear Annihilation, and he's a great DJ. And then randomly Todd McCullough, who was a center for the 76ers. But I said that was a crazy trio. Do you remember how you even kind of found out about Nudge at all? Because that was like, dude, we had like no imprint. I just wonder about that. Oh, good question. I'm trying to think back. So I go through these like, I don't know, fixations. My wife will call them obsessions.
    19:54
    The one that's kind of stuck is board games, as you mentioned earlier. But there will be six months where all I'm doing is learning magic tricks. So there will be you know a year where all I doing is playing pinball in that year and kind of in the beginning of that year is when you had announced Nudge I don remember how I found it Maybe just you know Midwest boys yeah Kicking around on the social media somewhere Well see so there all this bad stuff that comes from social media but you know every once in a while something really nice happens Yeah, once in a while. I still contend it's a net negative, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Once in a while you get it. Absolutely. I mean, we're right there with you. I think just like algorithmic driven things is like I would like to probably get that out of our lives in some capacity. So what made you gravitate towards Nudge right at the beginning to where you're like, okay, I want to be a part of this. I want – like this is something cool. What was it right away that grabbed you? Because I have my own answer even though I'm not in the top 100 subscribers. No, you weren't. But I'm curious to kind of what – you said, oh, not only is this something like I'm into but I want to like support this like monetarily.
    21:00
    Well, at the time I had some money. I don't anymore. But when I did, I liked to support little projects that made me excited. And even if it was something that I only had a sort of passing interest in, and I would say at that moment, Pinball was not a passing interest, but it was, you know, even if I'm a dilettante, I still like seeing people get excited about things. I think that's sort of my depth. Before nerd became cool, I always thought – I mean, I knew I was a board game nerd, and the way I defined it was just someone who was super enthusiastic about something that's not in the mainstream. And I still kind of think that mostly fits. And yeah, so I just saw how hyped you were about pinball and I saw you took pretty pictures and I like pretty things and I like pinball and I like the Midwest. So it was a perfect storm. This is great. It's making me very uncomfortable to talk about my stuff. So let's move on. I actually want to know, Rich, so you grew up in Stillwater, which some of our listeners are going to know it's really close to Minneapolis, but it's not Minneapolis. It's like a little bedroom community basically. So what was your spot, whether it was pinball or video games? Everyone had kind of like a bowling alley or something. What was the spot in Stillwater? What is your history with arcades and stuff? I mean, I was never like a full-on arcade dude. We went to the St. Croix Bowl. We went up at the mall, at the St. Croix Mall, which is now, I don't know what it is. It was Anderson, maybe Anderson Windows at one point. I don't know what it is anymore. It's not the St. Croix Mall. But at the mall, there was across the hall or across the place from the movie theater was an arcade. So I hung out in there a bit. But really, it was like while I was waiting, you know, after I'd waited in the line to use the payphone to call my parents and say, The movie was over. I'd go kill the remaining 15 minutes in the arcade. And do you remember at that point, was there pinball? Do you remember a specific game or anything? I don't think there was pinball. I was a pretty, I mean, I just floated around, tried not to get beat up and tried to talk to girls. So that was really the whole – that was it. I wore a KDWB tank top, so it was a very sketchy, dangerous situation as far as getting beaten up.
    23:37
    I really flirted with danger, but yeah. Were you ever going into Minneapolis, though, as like in your teen years? Because that was for me – like I even remember like middle school, we would get hyped on like hockey tournaments, like going into Mall of America and we're like they have the six-player X-Men like arcade. It was like, wow, that was the big city to us. It's kind of funny. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, it's still it was a big city to me, too. I mean, I I remember in 10th grade, people really started to go out to St. Paul, go to Copernicus, which was a coffee place. I don't know if it's still in operation, but it was like the first that I remember. It was the first coffee shop where you could like hang out in the Twin Cities. It was like couches and people were always going to Copernicus on Friday night. And I was like, how are your parents giving you the car to go out to St. Paul and drink a shit ton of caffeine at night? Anyway, so I kind of watched from afar, but then my trips to Minneapolis started in 11th grade. We went every Sunday to Uptown to see comedy sports. Oh, nice. Improv. And we went every Sunday. We were regulars for at least a year and a half, almost two years.
    24:50
    And a couple of us did the Comedy Sports High School League in the summer. So that was when I really started kind of hanging out in the cities proper.
    24:58
    And then, you know, later kind of get involved with the Brave New Workshop. And most of my time in the true cities was in Uptown. But it wasn't, again, it wasn't like, I didn't really discover board games as a true obsession until I was in grad school. So that was after Minnesota. I was late to everything. Yeah, because a lot of times we have people that have a vague recollection of pinball like, oh yeah, it's kind of fun. Or they have a very vivid recollection of like, yes, I fucking loved Pinbot or Adam's Family or a game like that. But it seems like you don't have really much recollection at all from your childhood or your youth of playing pinball specifically. I mean, you know, I was born, I was actually born in Ohio and I lived there till I was eight and then my dad got transferred to Minnesota and that's when we moved to Stillwater. So I claim Minnesota is, I mean, it's where all my formative years were, my true, like personality formative years were and that's home. But I do remember my dad on Sundays, some Sundays, he'd like me to note, not every Sunday, but some Sundays would go to the American Legion where he would sit at the bar with the other guys. And I was sort of sent to the other room, which was a pool table that I wasn't allowed to put money in because you had to be 14 to play pool. So I'm like six. You could get the cue ball out. So I would just roll the cue ball back and forth. And then they had centipede. So I played a lot of centipede there. And then they also had a jukebox. And my number one picked song was Elvira by the Oak Ridge Boys. And I just remember one of the dudes saying, God damn it! And putting a bunch of quarters on the bar and saying, anything but Elvira! I'm sorry, I had to spread my wings a little bit to Willie Nelson or whatever else was on the Akron American Legion jukebox. I remember being so psyched that when, I think it was Beatles Anthology came out or something, it was like they had paperback writer in the bar that my family would frequent. And I got in trouble for playing because it was like the one like almost punk song that were like, I don't know, it just scratched that itch in my brain. And my grandpa did a very similar thing. He's like anything but that song. And like to him, like even the Beatles were probably like subversive. So he's like these long hairs like. Is that why you grew up and became a writer because of the song? Yeah, probably so. I thought actually, I mean, I'm learning stuff about about myself as well. Yeah, for real. Well, it's so funny to hear you tell that story, though, because it brings back like also you maybe would play like a game or two of Centipede, but just like pre-phone kid culture where you're literally like rolling a pool cue around was the fun. Like, you're like, oh, it's kind of like Pong, but in real life or something like trying to explain. I mean, this is a whole other topic, but and I guess it kind of brings us back to the analog of pinball. But like trying to explain to my kids what childhood pre-phone was. I read that Chuck Klosterman wrote that book, The 90s. Yeah. And I really he just pointed out one, you know, about my generation being sort of the only generation to have a foot squarely in the pre-internet age and a foot squarely in the internet age. The generation after us is fully computer tuned in. My parents, while I wouldn't say adept at computer and phone, are certainly experienced with computer and phone and have obviously a strong memory of pre-internet, whatever. But our generation is like this, and by the way, I'm aging you guys up, apologies. My generation is squarely in between those two things and so fully raised without cell phones and then fully adulthood with computers and cell phones. It's just a whole different ballgame. It is, but it's funny and I'm only three years younger than you so I feel like I'm a lot younger than both of you. Well, what's interesting is I'm 1981 and I'm apparently the last or the first millennial. Like that's the – I'm right between Gen X and millennial. We got together and voted on that. Right. But it's funny though because my sister is six years older than me, so I see – and I do see the differences between our generations a little bit. But that book you referenced, I encourage people to read it. There's one part of it that I remember blew my mind, and it's when Chuck Klosterman talks about how in the 90s, video stores became a thing. Having a VCR and renting a movie and being able to watch it, it never crossed my mind that that wasn't a thing before that. Yeah. That once a movie aired in the theater, well, that was it. Totally. If you wanted to watch it again, you had to wait until either it was in a theater again or it was on TV. Yeah. You had to wait a year. Yeah. And then you couldn't record it and watch it over and over again. And so it's like that to me, that single-handedly blew my mind about how I guess sort of privileged to that ability to watch things over and over again, my generation, which is the first to be able to do that. And now with phones, it's just like I can't even imagine the things that are going to blow your kids' minds as they grow up and realize like, oh my God, this was not always a thing. Yeah, for sure. I mean, our instant access to everything. I mean, obviously, it has changed our human brain. Like the Amazonification of shopping has changed our brains. Like it is easier to order it from my phone and have it here by 7 a.m. tomorrow than to get up and drive to Burbank 20 minutes away and get the thing. You know what I mean? And cheaper probably too. Probably. Yeah.
    31:19
    It's funny because it's like you wonder where the line of convenience lies because I would argue now, right, like it's more convenient almost than ever. In some ways, I mean, things come on and off streaming, but like I feel like there isn't the dedication. Like, dude, I was obsessed with Ghostbusters as a kid and like – or Star Wars is a great example because I actually didn't see Empire Strikes Back probably until I was like 11. But like we had a book of it and I would read it all the time and I'd be obsessed with it and I'd like be like drawing the pictures out of it. Like I experienced it that way and I was like so fixated and like telling my own stories or like what was happening like outside of it. And it's like now you're like on TikTok like watching a bunch of reels on like – or I'll watch like YouTube stuff on like – I don't know, the new Fallout show. They're like every Easter egg in it or whatever. But you're like done with it then in like 15 minutes and I like throw it away. So I'm like I wonder what it's like for kids now with – like there's some line between like having access like a video store. But then for me, it's probably the algorithm I guess. Maybe that's the difference. Yeah. I mean, well, that's it. I mean, yes. And the glut of available everything. You know, I I've talked to my kids about this a number of times that, you know, when I would go to Johnny's TV in downtown Stillwater, which was the first video rental store, I think, in Stillwater, then you got your video update and stuff up on the hill. But downtown, it was Johnny's TV. And you'd go and you had the choice of, you know, first off, on a Friday night, it was packed in there. You know, they had the popcorn machine going and everyone was in there trying to get to the new releases first. And you had the only options you had were the things on the shelf. And so you were immediately limited. And I feel like, look, I'm not a sociologist. I'm not a psychologist. I'm just an idiot. But I do believe that that sort of vast kind of expanse of options is part of what has kind of messed us up a little bit. To not be limited by anything. I often wish there was a feature on Netflix where you could say, just these, like video stormy. And it's like, these are the 30 movies available to you right now. Right. But there's so much shit on there that still 97% of it is going to be chaff and what few things you can find that are worth anything you've seen. So it's, I don't know. It's a loser. Yeah. It's also interesting though too because like I don't know if a modern, like of a video store, like an old school video store that opened up in Burbank or wherever you are, like if that opened up, they wouldn't even be able to carry a decent selection. Because when you think of how much stuff has come out in the last, let's say, 30 years, it's crazy. Because before that, it was like, okay, how much cinema really was there that we wanted to watch between like 1965 and 1995? There were 30 years there. Like there was just the sheer volume right now. The output has gone way, way up, obviously. But I will argue against your point just a little bit. There is a video store in Burbank called Be Kind Video. My son actually got me started going there because he is I mean, he loves pinball, but he also loves VHS. That's like his big thing for the holidays. Two or three years ago, he got a TV VCR combo and any expendable income he has goes to VHS. And so we spend time at Be Kind Video and they have not only a shit ton of VHS, but they also have rentals, DVD rentals, and then all the new releases are in Blu-ray, DVD, 4K rentals. And they do kind of keep up. Now, don't get me wrong. You walk in, you're like, I mean, look up a picture of this place. It is a small joint that is absolutely packed to the gills with movies, but you still know that you're limited when you're in there. It just makes me calmer being in there than trying to go through the myriad streaming services and pick a thing. I know that's old man yelling at a cloud shit, but you know. No, I get the point. I mean, that's niche. I mean, what's more niche, that or pinball, right? I mean, I really wonder that. I mean, people love movies, but I think that's really cool. That's a great thing to kind of bridge us back a little bit into Pinball is I do see that generation, like your son's generation, stuff like craving the analog, craving real stuff. We have so many, the best players. So in the top 20 IFPA ranked players, I think over half of them, well over half are like 23 or under. Whoa. Yeah. It's like really a youth-driven movement and I think it's obviously they have the fastest reflexes and playing at a really high level but also like – And parents that have probably been coaching them how to play since they were little kids too but – But there's actually not – I mean there's some of that but I mean someone like Dalton, like those guys are just kind of doing it on – because they love it and I think there is that – we're seeing a rejection, right? Not roundly, but I think there is a huge counterculture element to that post-Gen Alpha or whatever, even post-Gen Z almost.
    36:51
    Yeah, so that's really interesting to hear you talk about that, actually. Well, I dig it, and I think it's humanness finding its way back out of the mire. I mean, the pendulum has swung. We are fully, you know, we've offloaded our memories and brains to the cloud. And there's just a tiny sort of grabbing at remaining people in this moment. I mean, art versus AI, it's all part of the same conversation. And again, I don't know where we are truly in the evolution of this stuff. I mean, we could, the horse is out of the stable. I mean, who knows what the fuck is going to happen? But I am heartened by those people that are hanging on to the analog just a little bit. And that's what I'm saying. It's like Nudge has connected me with so many of those people who are not just like they like pinball, but they're artists. That's what I mean. It's like, dude, you are like a part of a vast network, even like in your casualness, dilettantness. Like there is this like I've met so many like visual artists and people who work for Meow Wolf who write for Nudge and like are, you know, great photographers. And I think like you're right. There is something kind of – yeah, the humanness is what – like we still will crave that. Like whatever that is or whatever is there, like there's a movement towards it. Ian, I want to ask you a question. I don't know when this podcast comes out, but I just saw – I mean I'm reminded of it because of something I saw you post about on Instagram, that you were kicked out of the Pinball Hall of Fame. Is that accurate? I was kicked out of the Pinball Hall of Fame. Okay, I do want to hear that story. I don't know if you've talked about it on the podcast or not. Legitimately kicked out, yes. We can talk about that. I would like to hear that. But then the second thing, my favorite part of that was when, I don't know what you took a picture of, but when the woman said to you, I'm going to need to see you delete that, and you said, it's film. I was like, what more powerful argument is there? I know. Short of the, you know, Capo opening the camera and spooling out the film. Totally, I know. I mean, there is that. But, you know, the fact that you can't just delete it. And she, you know, you just can be escorted out instead. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. So, so, so, well, just speaking to that point only, it was funny because she was quite rabid where I was like, I might have to kind of like, you know, when you got in a fight with your little brother and you like put your hand on their head, like, uh, that was like kind of the, that was the energy of that lady where I was like, whoa, she was coming in hot. But so, yeah. Uh, what, so. But I mean you didn't argue either. A little context. This is actually great, dude. I would love for this is how people are going to be introduced to this story. It's hilarious.
    39:32
    The Pinball Hall of Fame is a great resource for people in Vegas. They have provided a service because there are a lot of people who had never experienced pinball. They see a giant sign that is literally three stories tall that says pinball. So you know what? Credit to them. We met this guy, Frank, who is a tech there. He is amazing. He was super nice. He took like 15 minutes out of his day to like explain just rando. Like I came up and was bugging him. So I bring my camera everywhere. That's just I'm a freak like that. And the Pinball Hall of Fame is also famous for the owners are a couple who have a lot of problems with a lot of different kinds of people. There's been news stories about it. Like I've read them. Yeah. OK, so they've kicked out children. They kick out people who like for like jogging. There's a lot of rules. There's a lot of rules posted. Don't do this. Don't do that. Some of them are pretty funny. So I kind of knew coming in I wasn I had changed my mind Originally the idea for an article I was going to write was how to speedrun getting kicked out of the Hall of Fame And my idea was I was just going to bring a bag of marbles and drop it on the floor and maybe in 30 seconds But I was like, you know what? No, I'm going to give them – I'm going to give them – I want to earn it. Yeah, or like I'm going to give them an opportunity to just like – maybe I'll have a normal time and I won't get kicked out. Well, here's the thing. I live in Vegas. I've really never had any problems personally. I've seen a lot of shit. I've seen a lot of people get thrown out. You saw some shit yesterday, my friend. A lot of children get yelled at. And I don't know if I officially got kicked out, but I was guilty by association, I think, on that one. I like that you're – like, Allie was telling me, she was like, don't walk directly to the car. Because I did burn you guys. I did. I did walk. Yeah, well, they came outside after and they were taking pictures of my car. I'll just say what happened. So what happened was I had been walking around taking pictures and it was fine. And I actually – so I probably pressed my luck a little bit because this – the lady who is in charge of the place, she was working on one of the pinball machines with the headlamp on. It was an awesome picture. And I was like – so I walked up to her. I said, hey, is it all right if I take your picture? And actually it started pretty good. She was like, yeah, and thank you for asking. And I was like, no problem. So then I kind of lifted up my film camera and she was like, absolutely not. Phones only. And I was like, that's kind of weird to me. But she was like, no flash. And I was like, oh, no. I'm like, there's enough light. If you're worried about Flash, there won't be it. She's like, it's not about that. And also there's registered trademark infringement. And I was like, I don't know if that's true, but that was the wrong thing to say because that was like you can't go against. It's like Soup Nazi. You know what I mean? So then she was like, listen to me. And I was like, okay, never mind. And I just kind of started power walking away. And we were okay for a little bit. Yeah, we probably spent another 15, 20 minutes. Like we played a couple games. And I took a couple other pictures and I took a picture of Shane. And there was some flash in it. Unfortunately, you know, I did. I used it. But it was like off to the side. There was some flash in it. Like it's not a binary. I turned on the flash and used it. The flash. It was bright as fuck. I used the flash. But also it wasn't like there was no one there. Who cares? Who cares? I mean, fine. Maybe. I think what really put us over the top was they had some like just random play fields like laying around and I decided to pick one up and put it over my head. I didn't want to burn it. I saw that picture. Yeah, I took a picture of me. Yeah, and then – yeah, I think that's really what did it. So all of a sudden we hear this from behind us. We hear from behind us like what the fuck is – and then it's like a train coming down until it's like right behind me and she's like I fucking told you. And she's like truly like swearing at me and I was like, yeah. Yeah, I was like – and I kind of did a bad job. I was a bad improviser in this moment. But I was like, yeah, I thought you meant only that, those games. And I pointed at that.
    43:23
    Right. And she was – yeah. She didn't buy that? No, she didn't. And she's like, you're kicked. Get out of here right now. And she's like, and you better delete those photos. And I was like, it's film. And then I just – yeah. And then I just like walked out. I was like – but yeah, she kicked us out. She kicked me out. I wasn't sure at first if I had to leave because she was walking you out. Well, you were going to what? You drove me there. What were you going to do? You were going to hang out? I don't know. I was like, I don't know what to do now. This is kind of weird. And then I think Allie was kind of laughing. My girlfriend was laughing at the situation, and that didn't help, I think. It helped me, but yeah. Yeah, it depends on how you look at it, I suppose. But I don't know how I didn't get in trouble for holding a playfield over my head.
    44:08
    She was more concerned. I had had an interaction already. So anyway, so it was kind of nice. In a way, it was like when it was happening, it's how I imagine when you die. Like you're like, oh, it's happening now. Like, you know what I mean? You step out and you have an acknowledgement of this is the moment. Yeah, you're like, oh, it was always meant to be like this. You know, like you're actually kind of weirdly at peace in that moment. It's a true rite of passage. Like I was outside myself seeing myself get kicked out of the Pinball Hall of Fame. That ain't good. But maybe that's because the edibles are good up here too. Well, let me ask you this, Rich, to get back on track a little bit. So you have two kids? How old are they? 15 and 18. Okay, so they're teenagers. Yeah. So that's kind of even more interesting, I guess. I don't know why I just pictured little kids when you talk about your kids. And they like pinball. They like VHS. How much of that do you think is your influence versus kind of rebelling against the current TikTok generational thing? Well, it's specifically the 15-year-old, my son. He's the one that's really into it. My daughter, she's right in the stream. She's right where she should be. But he and I are the counterculture freaks. We all got introduced to pinball really at the same time, which was that I was brought as a guest to a pinball slash board game convention in Atlanta. Okay. And this was the summer of 2018, I think. Oh, wow. That sounds right. 2018. And we went down there and it was phenomenal. First off, we decided to make it a family vacation because the kids weren't in school. We had never really spent any time in Atlanta. My son's really into puppetry, so we wanted to go to the puppetry museum. We really wanted to kind of make it a thing. So we went down and that was where we were like, oh, my God, this is a thing. I mean, people, you know, brought in their machines from all over the place. And, you know, we put in, I think, hours on like Champion Pub, Fish Tales. I mean, some like any toy factor thing. We were like, oh, boy, this is exciting. And at that same show, there was sort of a side room where my son played an NES for the first time. And he was like, hello. And he was very into that. And that was on like an old school tube television. And he was like, I really like that picture. Now, he's little at this time. I mean, this is eight years ago. Right. But it really stuck with him. And so then when COVID happened, we were home a lot. Like we tried to find pinball here and there after that.
    46:58
    I remember asking a guy at the show. I was kind of standing looking at one of the machines. And I said, do I want to buy a pinball machine? Again, this is when I had money. Do I want to buy a pinball machine? And he said, well, let me ask you this. Do you like fixing pinball machines? That's right. That's the next. I don't. And he said, then you don't want to own a pinball machine. I said, copy that. So I didn't end up getting one. But then when COVID happened and probably a year and change into COVID. Now, I'm about to tell you guys something that I'm nervous is going to scare you guys away. And I don't want to do that. Not a thing you can say that would do that, Rich. I bought a virtual pinball machine. No, that's good. Okay. I don't know. It's not great. Yeah, there you go. See, Shane, this is what I was looking for. But hey, I understand, though, if that first conversation about fixing them really scared you off. Virtual pinball is a good option. There's a lot less to go wrong. Dude, hold on, and I'll let you continue, Rich, but if this is a safe space, this is the first time I'll admit it. I also bought a virtual pinball machine during the pandemic, and I left it at my ex's house in Detroit. It's probably still there. She was so pissed. She was like, you're leaving this here. You're not going to get rid of it. I'm like, I don't know. My life is in shambles. Good luck, lady. But I also owned a virtual pinball machine, and even though I have called virtual pinball players booger eaters in print, I count myself amongst the booger eaters. So yeah, go on. So you had a virtual machine. We had. We don't have it anymore, but we had it for about two and a half years. And look, can you get better at pinball on it? Not really. Can you learn a bunch of rule sets? Yes. So that was fun. And my son and I had a deal where we would play loser chooser. So basically whoever lost would then choose. And again, it was like Netflix. I mean, there were, I think there were like 4,000 machines on that thing. And we had all the haptics, all the knockers and bangers and jigglers and everything. And it was very fun. And I spent many a drunk evening with friends just playing round robins of whatever, little sort of mini tournament. It was a delight to have around. But we were always eager to get out in the world and put our hands on machines. So we were – my son is not 21, so he's yet to go to like Walt's out here. We have Walt's Bar, which is fantastic. Down the street is Revenge Of. He and I have spent a number of hours at Revenge Of, but he's not been to like the real seedy pinball places, which are my kind of favorite places to hang out. Totally. That's where it's best. I like it a little grungy. No, I get – yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's – I don't know. So do you own any actual analog pinball machines? Have you ever owned any? No. No. I'd like to someday. But again, when the virtual machine left kind of coincided with – here's the deal. I don't know if you guys heard. In our business, we had a strike. And the strike was hot on the heels of the pandemic. And so earnings bottomed out. And while I have still continued to work a little bit, it has radically shifted sort of our deal and everyone's deal out here in town. Yeah, for sure. It's gnarly as fuck. So, yeah, so we don't have it anymore, but we do have a pocket full of quarters once in a while that are itching and it gets dropped somewhere. So we do – I will say, again, in the pro column of the smartphones, Pinball Map is a fantastic app and we frequently use it to find where to go.
    50:49
    Ryan from Pinball Map is going to love that shout out. He's actually an L.A. guy. So if you ever go to like Ace Goge or Goji – Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been out there. I've been nice. Yep. And he's hanging out there on the regular. Actually, I met him for the first time, and that's one of the few times I've been starstruck. I was like, wow, Ryan from Pinball Map.
    51:09
    That app has changed my life. And I'll say this to you, like Rich. I tell people the exact same thing as what you're talking about is like pinball is as expensive a hobby as you want to make it. Like for me, I own a pinball magazine. I don't own a pinball machine, and I've never bought a pinball machine. I only – I'm 99% location and when I've had like Torpedo Alley, that was gifted to me by a friend for a while and that was great. But like to be honest, when I had it in my house, it was fun but it just made me kind of like when you're talking about virtual. Like I really like being out amongst people is sort of part of it. And like even though I kind of have this – a lot of people who really get into pinball and maybe this is with board games too is like it's a bit spectrum-y behavior. But even though I'm on the spectrum and maybe don't want to always be talking to people, I want to be around them. I want to be in my little space sort of coexisting. It's part of the deal. And as a guy that owns, I don't know how many, 15, 16 machines I have in my house. Good ones.
    52:13
    I still play on location all the time. You do. I want to play other games. I want to play games that I don't have. I have a Jaws, for example. Okay, I got a billion on Jaws at my own house. Well, does that count? No. Like I have to go on location and then if I get a billion, then the other billion counts, I think. You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. Like when you play your own games all the time, you kind of know how they're going to go a little bit, which is why I like to change them sometimes just to mess them up for myself a little bit. But like, no, I mean, I think I play tournaments every week too. Like I still love location side of it. This is scaring Rich off from Pinball. I'm just a Pinball junkie. No, no, no. I'm delighted. Again, I am attracted to people who are enthusiastic about something that's not in the mainstream. I think it's fantastic. I love that. Shane, what I'm saying is I am attracted to you. I love that you have 16 machines and you still want to go out and get in the tournament or whatever. I also love that you know that that billion on your JAWS machine at home doesn't count. That's important. I wanted to tap actually some of your expertise right now because there's actually a rich tradition of improv groups doing voiceovers for pinball machines. Well, there's at least one famous one. I don't know if you know this. Yes, of course. That would be – hold on. It's the Castle one. Why is it eluding me? It's got Tina Fey, Kevin Dorff, Medieval Madness. Yes. Is it Scott Adsit as well? Scott Adsit, yep. Yep, he's also in there. Okay, so let's say you're getting your crack team together for Medieval Madness 2. You have a lot of improvisers that you like to work with. If you were picking out some interesting voices maybe or call-outs, what would your team be that you think you're getting together? And you can even call out whoever. I won't put words on it, but I'm going to see if we can figure out some characters even for what we would do for Medieval Madness 2. Okay, okay. Well, first off, to be a voice on a pinball machine would be such a dream. It would be so fun. Why not? I'm positive it's not covered by my union, so you can pay us pennies. It doesn't matter. It's not about the money. We're getting you the baggage. Stern, JGP, if you're listening, he's out there. Hey, listen to this. Book him. Hire him. Not for pennies. For good money. I was just kidding. It's probably covered by our union, so pay us a bunch of money. I don't know. Boy, that's an interesting one. I mean, I think Eugene Cordero comes to mind. Eugene was Pillboy on The Good Place, but Eugene was my first improv friend in New York. In 2003, we took levels one through three together at Upright Citizens Brigade, and he's also done a ton of voice work. He's someone that I would love to get in and fuck around with doing call-outs on a pinball machine.
    55:18
    Here's what we're going to need. We're probably going to need a couple people who is like someone who's like a – I'm assuming if it's you, you're going to be like the main whoever is giving us the tour of this thing. That sounds great. Like, interesting to think about, because, like, unique voices are always, like, I would love to have Maria Bamford in a pinball machine at some point. I think she would be good. She's not really an improviser, but I'm just, like, I think, like, voice-wise, she would, like, and she's so, like, what I love about Tina Fey in Medieval Madness is she does the Valley Girl one. She's like, oh, but she'll also do, like, she kind of has some, like, range that way in a way that you don't always think of Tina Fey. Like, you know, you always think of her as playing herself, but even in that, it's not. Oh, no. Those improvisers, everybody's played every character, so there's a lot of access points. I voiced a couple video games, and one of them, I'm embarrassed to admit that I hadn't heard of this video game until I did it. It's called Dota 2, and it's a very big deal, apparently. And during COVID, they had this solo level that they made for the game voiced by a character who has been referenced throughout the length of the series but had never appeared. And so he finally appeared and I got to voice him and his name was Aghanem. And it was very much, it was like what you're talking, he was, I'm trying to think, welcome! It was like, welcome, travelers! It was a lot of that kind of... That's perfect. Dude. Okay, Spooky Pinball, listen to this right now. That's right. Maybe we need to get in there for the Dungeons & Dragons call-outs, too. That was pretty perfect for that. Dude, that's a fun table. I like that one. It is. And they've got great voiceovers in that one. Wait, am I not allowed to say table? I have you guys experts here now because I go on the Reddit, the Pinball subreddit, and they say that if I say table, I'm a douchebag. Am I a douchebag? I have said it in print before, so I would be a hypocrite if I called you a douchebag, but there is like a subset of Pinball where it's like you're not – it's like when people say San Fran. Yeah. Like some people don't like that and some people are just like whatever.
    58:06
    So in my opinion – like I try not to if I'm with like the cool kids, but if it slips out, I don't give a shit. Yeah, it slightly bothers me, but I'm not mad about it, Rich. Okay. All right. I like that Ian gives me the nice softballs and Shane comes in with the heaters. He's like, no, no, no, you're okay, you're okay. That's actually kind of opposite. That's usually how it is. I don't know if that's true because you're more a hardliner as an owner, I think, than I am. I'm more a ground level. What I think is cool about you finding nudge, and I don't like talking about nudge that much in this context, but I think it is a lot of people sort of like if you're on the hub, if you aren't sort of that way, For me, why I create a magazine is like $20 is a way cheaper buy-in into a culture than having to buy a pinball machine for $8,000. It's like you can feel a part of this community and you can have that stuff and you don't have to be so deep in because I felt like I wanted more touch points where people could kind of be like that. I like that. Okay. Wait. I have another one here because – okay. Betsy Sedaro. If you don't know Betsy Sedaro, she has the greatest voice.
    59:19
    You've heard her voice in a thousand cartoons, probably video games. She's so fucking funny. She's so funny, and her voice is like this kind of raspy sort of thing, but she can play sort of any age with it, and she's just wicked funny. She would be a must-have for the table. Machine, machine, machine. Oh, God. How dare you? Oh, my God. Get him out of here. That's strike two, dude. That's strike two. I know, I know. Okay, so you've been involved. I hate using the term IP. I really just hate it. Sexy. Yeah, I know, IP. But you've been involved with some crazy stuff like Devil Wears Prada and Mad Men. If you were picking something out of your catalogs of stuff that you've done that you would like to see a pinball machine of, which one are you picking? Well, this is an easy one for me because first off, I think it fits. The vibe would be impeccable.
    60:20
    Also, I was a part of sort of the reboot of this thing, and the original is one of my favorite pieces of movie making ever, and that is Wet Hot American Summer. Dude, I was hoping you might say that. Wet Hot as a table. First off, there are so many perfect machine. Fuck, that's strike three, Shane. Sorry. No, no, no. Click. There so many great quotable call The can of vegetables is definitely a toy somewhere in the thing The modes sort of build themselves because that movie is a series of little odysseys of little journeys to take And then if you could somehow, I mean, I would love to bring in the, you know, we did two sort of subsequent series of it, Wet Hot American Summer. What were they? First Day of Camp and Ten Years Later. Yep. Those were – there's great moments in those as well, but chiefly I would just want to play that original machine.
    61:20
    Yeah. Fuck yeah. That's a great one. And like some nice Christopher Maloney. I got to get my dick cream. He's like stickball, stick team. Stick team. Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. It's the best. Yeah, that's a very good call. I think that would be super fun. You could kind of have like the retro, like almost evil Knievel color scheme to it. Like that sort of like red, white, and blue. Totally see it. Man, yeah. It already has like kind of that pinball art because they did sort of the like National Lampoon style like poster for it. Yes, sort of bubble letters. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's really – it would be perfect. I think it's the – I mean I've often thought, of course, as somebody who enjoys playing pinball, what would a Mad Men machine look like? Yeah. There are, I mean, there's certainly, look, I mean, the aesthetic kind of builds itself. I'm not worried about the aesthetic. I don't know what the call-outs are going to be. I don't know what the, you know, like what kind of fun thing. I mean, it's mostly a heavy-duty drama with comedic elements, but it's like a heavy-duty drama. And it's not even like The Godfather or Jaws, while both also sort of heavy-duty, high-stakes dramas.
    62:34
    There's like a little more fun factor in it. And not that Mad Men doesn't have a fun factor. But I'm just saying, you know what I mean? It's just different. It's different. Yeah, but what if it's like wacky Roger Sterling's Day Off and you're like following him around? You know what I mean? And then you don't even have to deal with it. Okay.
    62:53
    No, I think... Harry Crane goes to Hollywood. I'm into that. I would love – I mean I would heavily fuck with that. But I think like – well, okay, this is my pitch for the Mad Men machine. You're in the power position right now. Here's my pitch for it. We actually go retro with it. We're going to go like a James Bond 60th, so it's actually going to have mostly chimes. I think we want to have – you want to hear the music is amazing. Like at the beginning, you want to just like hear that like as the balls in the shooter lane. But then once it starts, we're kind of just like – it's like jazzy and like actually very minimal call-outs slash maybe no call-outs. You know what? Okay. I'm being convinced. I like the idea of the very like old-school style. Yeah. Maybe even the tumblers or whatever they're called. Exactly. Like real scoring and like maybe we just kind of have almost like – you know how there was that real – like in the early 60s machines, like kind of the ones that you have in your garage is like there's just that very angular art. And maybe that's how we're kind of doing the likenesses. I think something like that would be awesome. And there's precedent for that because I don't know if you knew this, but Quentin Tarantino was kind of a creative consultant on when CGC made the Pulp Fiction game. And one of his stipulations was it had to play like a classic, even though like kind of like how Pulp Fiction, you don't know when it's set. Like, you're like, is it set in the past or is it set in the 90s? He wanted that same kind of thing. You would realize it more as you played it. It had some modern elements. It totally works, by the way. I really like that machine. I think if you have a Mad Men game, when you get a match, a cigarette has to pop out of the game or something. It pops out in there? Yeah, like a free cigarette. Kind of like in Safe Cracker, when you get to a certain point, it gives you the token. Exactly. You get a little cigarette out of there. That's a great idea. The kids will love it. I think we need someone. So if you're listening, CGC, I think you're the company for this one. You did Pulp Fiction already. You can make a big, heavy – there's nothing nicer than a big, old, heavy cabinet, and CGC, that's what they do. That's what they do. I mean – so get going on it. Yep, me too. If you were going to own some games, Rich, I know you said you'd like to. You got like a top three maybe or – Not to be on the spot, but what would you like to want in your house there?
    65:19
    I was actually just trying to think of the name. So first off, again, if fixing machines wasn't such a hassle. If they were cheap and you didn't have to ever fix them. I mean, Champion Pub is a family favorite. Everyone in the family would love to have Champion Pub. So then something kind of in the middle would be somewhere in the like, I want to say No Fear or what was the other one that sort of fits in that? Oh, like Pinball, No Fear. I know that those are not really comparable, but David. Something like repeatable and easy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Not quite – as much as I like Monster Bash or Medieval Madness, those are incredible, obviously.
    66:13
    But they – just a little like – not simpler. Like No Fear is – look, I know a lot of people complain about No Fear. I love No Fear. I love the simple little games that you have to play. Okay, now I'm doing this. Now I'm doing this, which is the same with those others. So I don't know. One of those kind of any of those that I just mentioned. Fine. And then the last one would be I'm trying desperately to remember the name of it. You need a modern, I feel like, man, like, oh, I was actually going to go even older. Oh, OK. OK. Yeah. The one with I can't remember the name of it, but it's got the nine clowns all in a row. You have to knock down each of the clowns. It's like a solid state game. Maybe an EM even. Dude, this is actually going to be – you're like – you're worried about not being hip enough. This is like the most hipster pick I think I've ever heard on here. You're not even throwing in like a Black Knight Sword of Rage or anything. I mean, those are fun and everything, but this is more – like mine are more nostalgia picks as far as – and nostalgia for only a few years ago. But like we loved Champion Pub. This one with the clown that I – for some reason – if my son was here, he'd tell you. That was the first one that we really got sort of obsessed with because you had to knock down all nine clowns in one ball. It's all drop targets and they're just in a line and I can't – Someone is screaming at their radio right now. I know. This is going to be good. We're going to get a lot of engagement from this. But it sounds like, Rich, you mentioned like, oh, yeah, I take my son to revenge of and that's great and all, but I really want to go to Walt's. And that kind of makes sense now. It seems like you're more into games that are like the 90s, 80s games and the moderns are like, okay, but you're not like as excited. I mean, I like the modern, you know, but like if I'm given the choice personally between say a Stranger Things or a Theater of Magic, I'm going to choose Theater of Magic. Like I just like more, I mean, Stranger Things is super fun and super fast and great toy factor and shooting the Demogorgon's mouth, like so fun. But I like a little more, you know, I like a shitty animation. I like, you know, reels. I like it all. There's a cheesy, like there's a cheese in Camp Factor too, especially something like Champion's Pub that's really fun. Dude, also I will say this about Champion's Pub that's kind of lost is like there's a million, like what you said, like it's simple in its way, but there's also a million things to do in it. Like there's the jump rope thing, like all that stuff is like. So fun. And like things that are so inventive too. Like that's what I love about – I don't know like – so like Rich, like something for me is like I love to see how creativity kind of plays out. Like I have a magazine. You like act. Like the idea of telling us – or like you love board games. So it's like telling a story through rules and gameplay is like very interesting to me and how that like manifests in Pinball is an art. Like it's both engineering and art that is happening. So that kind of stuff is always just like how someone conceptualizes like, oh, if I was a champion fighter, I'd be jumping rope. And you'd do the punching bag and you'd fight the guy. And yeah, it's pretty cool. But yeah, I guess as a board game enthusiast, you must have opinions on rule sets and scoring being appropriate and not having games you can exploit and stuff. That must all be important to you with pinball too, right? Yeah. I mean, look, I like a simple rule set. I don't like when it's so complex. But that goes for board games, too. I mean, I don't mind, personally, I don't mind a complicated board game. But I also don't mind if the first two hours we're together is muscling through the rule book. That doesn't bother me. But it bothers many of my friends and my wife. And so I almost never fuck with those games because it's just not – unless I've got the exact perfect group, which literally only happens once every couple of years. Like basically when I go back to Minnesota and hang out with my college buddies, that's when we can really like hunker down for a weekend of learning and playing one game. That's just not the deal. So with pinball as well, I like a simple goal that is achievable with a little challenge. Like there's also this little wrinkle of, you know, you got to hit that ramp nine times while you're doing these other things. You know, by the way, Bad Cats, that's another one that we would love to have in our house. Ooh, good call. Dude, very good. Love it. And the art on that game is like next level. I love it. You don't see enough orange cabs in pinball. It's like that and Looney Tunes. I don't think there's like – maybe – is there like a – is there any other one? Your Texas Chainsaw's got – It's a little orange. It's orange. Anyway, that's my autism showing right there. So, hey, Rich, I really appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much. We're going to have to get you in some multiplayer games, whether that's out in L.A. You know, like you mentioned Waltz, there's Revenge Of. There's 82. There's so many good spots out there, so maybe out there. Otherwise, yeah, next time you come to Minneapolis, let's play some of them. We didn't talk about board games too much, but I do have one question I want to ask. For anybody that likes board games, oh my god, he's showing, for the audio listeners, he's showing his vast collection of board games. So let me ask you this. For somebody that maybe doesn't play a lot of board games and wants to get into it a little bit more, what's the board game that you should start with, that you should get, that you should play with your friends? Maybe something like – I don't mean Monopoly. I have something that's pretty cool.
    72:00
    Oh, gosh. Good question. You're really paralyzing because he likes a lot of this. I know. But if somebody – if I was on a board game podcast and somebody asked me, I'd probably say Godzilla. I mean like if I was trying to get people into it. Gotcha. That is a really good machine, by the way. I do like that one a lot.
    72:20
    Because that's another one. You just got to hit that door a bunch of times and then the thing goes up and now you go into the thing. It's simple.
    72:28
    My first instinct is actually a card game. I think that this is a good – this came out last year. He's pulled off the shelf. Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, trick-taking game. It's good because – first off, I love a trick-taking game. That's anything like hearts, euchre, spades, anything like that. Sheep said. But it's good because your grandparents probably played trick-taking games and could teach you the basic rules. And the basic rules never really change with some very small exceptions from game to game. But that one is really cool because you build a story as you play it. I think there's something like 30 levels in there. I don't know exactly how many.
    73:15
    But each player is assigned a character. Each character is going for a different goal. It's not just take the most tricks. It might be you can't take the last trick or the whole thing fails. It's cooperative, by the way. So you're trying to help each other. I'm generally, when someone's new to board games, I'm generally going to recommend a cooperative game so that everybody is kind of learning these complexities together and they're not out to kind of hurt each other by showing how, you know. So a friend of mine taught me Axis and Allies.
    73:50
    Now, we were adults, but we lived in New York, and he taught me the whole game, and then I made a move, and he said, Okay, okay, now here's why that was a bad move, because now I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. Okay, your turn. And I was like, oh, okay. Fun game. I was like, yeah, awesome. Thanks so much. What a joy. So I often will recommend a cooperative game or something that doesn't take much time. So on the bigger scale, something like Pandemic is a great cooperative game. I know it's a little loaded these days, but it's still a really excellent game system that then you can kind of branch off from. And then I also like a party game. Maybe my favorite party game of last year is one called Outfox the Fox. It's semi-cooperative. There's still one winner, but you're working together sort of. So, for example, if I'm the fox, I pull a card. It's over there. I get it, but it's over there. I pull a card, and it might be like most popular bagged chips based on an internet survey in 2025, right? So then it lists five, in no particular order, five bag chips and then a blank. You have to fill in the blank. The people you're playing against don't see the list of chips. So you're going to actually read off six brands of chips. And their job now, the group, is working together to not only figure out what the ranking is from that survey, But also to pick the one bogey that you put in there, the Fox idea that you put in there. And they're trying to guess. So they're going, OK, Doritos has got to be up there. Fritos has got to be up there. I don't think Ruffles is on that list. I think he threw in Ruffles, et cetera, et cetera. And so you're just trying. But it's a really clever game. You are forced to kind of come up with your own shit to say, but it's not so challenging. You're also given options. You get three categories to choose from, so you're not going to be stuck coming up with like a most challenging mathematical formulae according to the – like you're not stuck coming up with something that's not in your wheelhouse. Anyway, out Fox to Fox, Fellowship of the Ring, and Pandemic. Those are my three recommendations for today. Those are great. My brother is a big pandemic guy, so I played that with him and my dad. So, yeah, absolutely. I feel like a big dumbass like me can figure that out, I think. The average Joe, that's a good one. There you go. Well, hey, Rich, thank you so much for joining us. And, yeah, we'll see you out playing pinball, hopefully, in the near future. I look forward to it. I'm going to go – the first thing I'm doing is finding the name of that clown pinball machine, and I'm going to send it to you. Send it my way. It's bothering me, too. It's killing me. We'll put it in the show notes. Okay, good. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks, Rich. Bye.
    77:14
    So there it is with Rich Summer. The man loves pinball tables. He loves a table. Loves a good table. I wonder if people don't like the word table because it implies that you can put drinks on them. Maybe. You know? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Some people get really bothered by it. You do. I don't love it. I don't love it, but it's like I think it's just something that a casual player would tend to say. But I say it sometimes. That's what I mean. I hear what you're saying. When you say that, I always think there's this guy Cliff Albert. I don't know if you know him. He's a great pinball player. He's very punk rock. He's on Instagram. He fucking hates it when people say table. All right, there you go. Stand up to Cliff. Yeah, but I'm always just like, dude, all right, chill. Because truly, we have like, oh, dude, I think it's like in issue one, it's like why your music table sucks. I think we said table in that, I'm pretty sure. Because I always think back on that and I'm like, but, you know, fuck it. Who cares? And to be honest, it was really nice to be able to talk to someone who's so familiar with games and was familiar with pinball but also had some outside perspective on it. And to be able to hear, we always talk about it all the time, the outreach is to the casuals and people like that. Absolutely. And it was really awesome getting the chance to hear, I mean, honestly, how much pinball game he knew was pretty impressive to me. If you're picking Champions Pub as one of the games in your thing, you're a pinball guy. Whether he wants to admit it or not, you are. I love Champion's Pub. I always have. And it doesn't get a lot of recognition. Like, you know when they made all the remakes, like they made Cactus Canyon, for example. Of course, Attack from Mars, Evil Madness. And then Cactus Canyon was one they picked. I was like, from that era, I think Champion's Pub might be better. I would rather have Champion's Pub as well. No offense. Cactus Canyon is cool. Definitely more inventive, more interesting. The turnaround thing is super cool. Dude, you have levels. You're playing Punch-Out as a pinball game, right? I mean, that's kind of what it is. You're playing Super Punch-Out, and where the ball hits is where you're landing punches. It's dope. The theme is awesome. It's ridiculous. It's like so, like, you just have to embrace, you're like, this is the least PC thing of all time, and we're just going to go with it. Like, everyone's getting, like, no one is spared. But yeah, no, absolutely. It's a wild, like, if someone's not used to it, and then they're hearing the call-outs of the different people you're fighting for the first time, you're like, yeah, just get ready for, buckle up, because this was the 90s. Buckle up. Well, yeah, thanks, guys, for sticking around this long. I mean, yeah, this was super fun. I'm like, we're well into, we're back in the swing of season two. We're back in the swing. Yeah. That's right. So look for more fun interviews with people in Pinball, people outside of Pinball who like Pinball, all that stuff. We're excited. And make sure you follow us on the internet, at Nudge Magazine, on Instagram. That's kind of the big one that we use. That's the big one. Do you think, are we ever going to spin off? Do we need a second NudgeCast account specifically? We might need a NudgeCast account. We might need to get into the nuts and bolts of things. I think we should. We might have TikToks coming out. We don't know. We might. Watch us dancing on TikTok around the pinball machines. Oh, my God. That's right. Oh, boy. I can't wait. Well, all right. We'll see you guys. We'll see you guys real soon.
    80:56
    I'm the Black Riser.