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Episode 2 - Around the pinball industry

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·53m 12s·analyzed·Jul 2, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Special When Lit discusses Spooky's pipeline, Dutch Pinball's Big Lebowski fiasco, and remake vs. original value.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss recent personal happenings in their pinball lives, upcoming game releases from Spooky Pinball (Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle, Total Nuclear Annihilation), the troubled Dutch Pinball/Big Lebowski licensing saga, and broader industry trends around remakes vs. originals. They express skepticism about crowdfunding for Dutch Pinball's legal defense and reflect on collector value dynamics.

Key Claims

  • Scott D'Nisi (Spooky Pinball) is working on a second game and wants to work on it 'organically' without a hard deadline

    high confidence · Bill Webb cites Spooky's announcement; Ken confirms Scott has said this publicly

  • Total Nuclear Annihilation (TNA) has sold mid-to-high 400s units and is expected to exceed 500

    medium confidence · Bill Webb estimates based on manufacturing numbers he's read; not officially confirmed by Spooky

  • Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle is currently on the manufacturing line at Spooky Pinball

    high confidence · Ken confirms this based on public announcements; TNA is still being produced

  • Dutch Pinball had financial mismanagement and disputes with manufacturer ARA over pricing; they shifted production to China with Zytec

    medium confidence · Ken reports speculation from online forums and articles; explicitly notes 'speculation' and 'he said she said' nature of claims

  • A group called 'the Seattle Seven' is organizing crowdfunding to help Dutch Pinball's legal defense against ARA

    medium confidence · Ken reports reading about this; no direct confirmation provided

  • Deep Root Pinball has acquired the rights to Magic Girl and other John Papaduke designs (including Alice in Wonderland variant)

    medium confidence · Ken reports from reading; notes uncertainty about exact scope of agreement

  • Bill Webb has not played a pinball machine for approximately a month due to family obligations (uncle with birds in basement)

    high confidence · Bill states this directly at episode opening; went ~3.5 weeks without playing, then 5+ more days after uncle left

Notable Quotes

  • “These bird cages almost didn't fit, if you can imagine that... It's called getting your house back together.”

    Bill Webb@ 1:27 — Sets comedic tone; illustrates personal challenge competing with pinball passion

  • “The Ruby Red is like the Cadillac flagship kind of pin offered by Jersey Jack in the Wizard of Oz line.”

    Bill Webb@ 3:27 — Positions Ruby Red as premium variant; establishes Bill's search for Wizard of Oz

  • “The music grabs you right away. It's a type of music that you had never heard in a pinball machine before... it just kind of gives you an adrenaline rush that pins that are more complicated in my opinion have not been able to do that for me.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 11:55 — Articulates core appeal of Total Nuclear Annihilation; suggests design philosophy shift in modern pins

  • “I would still like to see them release a... Sharpie edition of the Total Nuclear Annihilation. Do a run of like 10... that'd be the ultra-limited edition of like any pin that's been released recently.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 15:04 — Desire for ultra-limited whitewood prototype variant; suggests collector market appetite

  • “I just don't see how you can give Dutch Pinball any more money for legal battles... The people that preordered those pins got those. Got made whole. That's the most important thing, right?”

    Bill Webb@ 23:14 — Expresses skepticism about crowdfunding for legal defense; prioritizes preorder fulfillment

  • “I think the original will always be a little higher because it was an original it's been around 20 years.”

    Bill Webb@ 27:54 — Reflects on collector value dynamics between remakes and original machines

  • “Although the original didn't look as pretty as the remake... it just felt kind of broken in. Like the shots felt like they flowed a little bit better.”

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonScott D'NisipersonSpooky PinballcompanyDutch PinballcompanyARAcompanyDeep Root PinballcompanyAmerican Pinball

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky Pinball expanding from single title (TNA) to two major concurrent releases (Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle in production, Scott D'Nisi's second game in development). Scott explicitly seeking organic development timeline without hard deadlines.

    high · Ken confirms Spooky announced Scott D'Nisi working on second game; Bill notes Alice Cooper is now on line and TNA still in production

  • ?

    product_launch: Total Nuclear Annihilation approaching 500+ unit milestone with continued manufacturing; Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle beginning production line assembly.

    high · Bill estimates TNA mid-to-high 400s units expected to exceed 500; Ken confirms Alice Cooper now on manufacturing line

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball Big Lebowski preorder crisis: financial mismanagement allegations, manufacturer (ARA) pricing disputes, production halted, legal battles ongoing, machines in storage unpaid for, preorder holders unfulfilled.

    medium · Ken reports multi-layer crisis: 'mismanagement,' ARA price hostage-taking, China pivot with Zytec, lawsuit, unpaid machines in storage, preorders unfulfilled

  • ?

    community_signal: Community group 'Seattle Seven' organizing crowdfunding for Dutch Pinball's legal defense against ARA. Bill Webb and Ken express strong skepticism about this approach, arguing funds should go to fulfilling preorders instead.

    medium · Ken: 'after years and years of people being strung along... crowdfunding is being asked to give dutch pinball more money to defend themselves.' Bill: 'I just don't see how you can give Dutch Pinball any more money for legal battles.'

  • ?

Topics

Spooky Pinball production pipeline and design philosophyprimaryDutch Pinball Big Lebowski manufacturing and legal crisisprimaryTotal Nuclear Annihilation's commercial success and cultural impactprimaryCollector market dynamics: original vs. remake games and value retentionprimaryWizard of Oz light board issues and Ruby Red premium variantsecondaryStern Iron Maiden LE tier quality and setting industry standardssecondaryMagic Girl/Houdini crisis resolution and American Pinball interventionsecondaryBaywatch as 'guilty pleasure' game and undisclosed ownershipmentioned

Sentiment

mixed(0.45)— Hosts are enthusiastic about Spooky's releases and Iron Maiden, but deeply skeptical and frustrated about Dutch Pinball's mishandling of preorders. Sympathetic frustration expressed about industry credibility crisis. Positive nostalgia about classics and collector experiences, but concern about value preservation.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.160

0:00
Broadcasting from the Two Brothers Pinball Pal-Al Craft Beer Studios, this is the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Thanks for hitting that start button and taking the plunge. Here are your hosts, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the second episode of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast.
0:32
My name is Ken Cromwell and to my left today is Bill Webb. Bill, what's going on? Oh, not much. Been a crazy couple of weeks, Ken. How about you? Yeah, you know what? I've had also a crazy couple of weeks. I know for certain you've had an interesting two or three weeks. Yeah, you know, honestly, my wife's uncle needed a place to live because he was in between closings of two houses. So I'm like, sure, no problem. You can come live with us. Anything for family, right? So, you know, the wife's like, oh, you can sleep in the basement. Coincidentally, that's where all the pinball machines are.
1:03
So he gets to sleep in the pinball, the game room. Well, that was the original thought. And then didn't really think about it, but he has two birds. So when he shows up, you know, the birds go in the basement. What kind of birds are these? Cockatiels, which the cages, just for, you know, anyone that's ever moved a pinball machine knows how difficult it is to get one down your basement stairs. I've got nine in my basement, so we've got that figured out. But these bird cages almost didn't fit, if you can imagine that. So, yeah. Do they make escalaras for bird cages?
1:35
No, because you've got to hold the cages level because you don't want to freak the bird out. Do you move the cage with the bird inside? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was an interesting experience. That was interesting. Flying around, yeah. So, yeah, the last three and a half weeks have not touched a pinball machine because they would scare the birds, so we don't want to do that. Don't want to scare the birds. And now, you know, the uncle has left. He moved to his new home and has been a little too crazy to actually try and play pinball.

Ken Cromwell@ 29:51 — Suggests original Medieval Madness plays better despite inferior aesthetics; playability vs. appearance tradeoff

company
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Total Nuclear Annihilationgame
Alice Cooper Nightmare Castlegame
Wizard of Ozgame
Big Lebowskigame
Magic Girlgame
Iron Maidengame
Medieval Madnessgame
Attack from Marsgame
Demolition Mangame
Baywatchgame
Zyteccompany
John Papadukeperson
Charlieperson
Two Brothers Pinballcompany

design_philosophy: Total Nuclear Annihilation praised for deliberately simple playfield design combined with high-impact audio/visual experience, creating immersion despite layout simplicity. Hosts note this is distinct from contemporary complex-layout trend.

high · Ken: 'it doesn't look overly complicated, but with the music and the graphics... you get very involved in it.' Notes TNA's simple layout but 'adrenaline rush' impact contrasts with more complicated modern pins.

  • ?

    product_concern: Wizard of Oz light board issues affecting some units, including Ruby Red premium variant. Buyers experiencing difficulty obtaining replacement boards from Jersey Jack.

    medium · Bill: 'There's been a few [Wizard of Oz machines]. Seems like there's still the light board issue games out there... Ruby Red that I was looking at has a light board issue, and the guy was trying to get a new light board, and he's waiting on Jersey Jack.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts express accumulated frustration about repeated pinball manufacturing crises (Dutch Pinball, Magic Girl, Houdini) and misrepresentations. Skeptical of new crowdfunding initiatives given pattern of failure.

    high · Bill: 'We've seen so many debacles in pinball recently with companies that have made promises and failed.' Ken expresses 'boggles my mind' sentiment about crowdfunding after years of broken promises.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern Iron Maiden LE tier significantly improved relative to Premium tier, setting new quality expectation. Hosts hope Stern maintains this standard for future LE releases.

    high · Ken: 'Up until Iron Maiden, though, Stern really stepped up to Iron Maiden and LE... they blew it out of the park on that one.' Bill: 'everything that they did on that game was just absolutely incredible'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Hosts debate collector value of remake editions vs. originals. Attack from Mars remake at $7,995 caused original prices to drop 15-20%. Medieval Madness original commands premium despite less appealing aesthetics due to playability and age.

    medium · Bill: 'when those were released you could no longer find an attack from mars that was that high everything had dropped' and 'the original will always be a little higher because it was an original it's been around 20 years'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: John Papaduke's designs (Magic Girl, Alice in Wonderland variants) now under Deep Root Pinball ownership and potential development. Represents talent/IP consolidation in industry.

    medium · Ken: 'Deep Root Pinball that has John Papaduke on staff, and they have agreed to the rights of the artwork with Zombie Eddie, Jeremy Packard... they own the rights for Magic Girl Alice in Wonderland'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Scott D'Nisi (Spooky) second game officially in development but details sparse. Hosts speculate 12-18 month timeline before reveal, debate whether he'll pursue similar minimalist approach or pivot to different design philosophy.

    high · Ken: 'I would imagine we won't see anything revealed for at least 12 to 18 months, if I had to guess.' Bill: 'it'll be interesting to see what he does' regarding design direction.

  • ?

    design_innovation: Spooky Pinball offering 'butter cabinets' (premium cosmetic finish) for Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. Hosts discuss value proposition: aesthetically premium but not gameplay-essential; depends on use case (collector showpiece vs. practical player).

    medium · Ken: 'my problem with the butter cabinets is... it's not anything that's necessary but if it's just something you really really want to go all in go for it.' Bill: clear-coated protected cabinets as alternative premium option.

    • 2:05
    I was going to ask you, so after three and a half weeks, you kind of got access to your pinball machines again. What's the first machine that you played? None. It's called getting your house back together. You still haven't played? No, not a game. Oh, man. Not a game in like five days, but that's okay. So you've gone about a month without playing pinball. Correct. Wow. Yeah, but you know what? You do whatever you can for family, and, you know, despite wanting to play your machines. So the wife kind of felt bad, so she's like,
    2:36
    well, maybe you should go looking for a Wizard of Oz, since you always wanted one. So if anyone has any Wizard of Ozes with, you know... The Wizard of Oz. I'm going to ask for somebody to stay in my basement for three or four weeks and see if I can get a Wizard of Oz as a compassionate offering for my wife. Oh, yeah. I was like, you know what, Mike, you're welcome to stay six months. I could use a Lamborghini. You know, no problem. We're going to turn the collection over. Yeah. Let's extend a stay time for you. Yeah. That would be awesome. Yeah. We'll just cycle through games for every three weeks. So you're looking for a Wizard of Oz right now?
    3:07
    We are actively looking. There's been a few. Seems like there's still the light board issue games out there, which is hard to decipher because I'm not clear on which games have that issue and don't. I know one of the Ruby Reds that I was looking at has a light board issue, and the guy was trying to get a new light board, and he's waiting on Jersey Jack. The Ruby Red is like the Cadillac flagship kind of pin offered by Jersey Jack in the Wizard of Oz line. Correct. And honestly, the one that I'm looking at is a year and a half old, absolutely gorgeous, nothing wrong with it,
    3:42
    probably $700, $800 worth of mods, nice gentleman. just now it's kind of getting unsettling because he can't get the board to fix it so i'm kind of getting the antsy of whether or not to buy it okay so you're just in a holding pattern essentially you have to wait and see what happens correct correct um you know there are other ones out there but this one is closer and it has a lot of stuff that i'd like to do to it done so i'm kind of waiting to see what happens unless anybody has a ruby red that they want to part with with $700 worth of mods. This is the wanted-to-buy classified podcast for Bill Webb.
    4:15
    Yeah, thank you. What else do you need? Ghostbusters, Premium Pro. Ghostbusters, Pro Premium. Yeah. Wizard of Oz. What else? What else would I like? I wouldn't mind Batman Forever. Batman Dark Knight. Just some games to try out. Not that I don't think they're keepers, but you never know because we had Baywatch, and Baywatch is awesome, and I'll never get rid of that game. Yeah, yeah. Very underrated. Underrated. You'll hear Baywatch come up from time to time throughout the life of the podcast.
    4:46
    As it is the elusive unicorn, as there aren't many of them. And it's like one of those, honestly, I have maybe seen one and a half episodes of Baywatch, even as a younger guy growing up and Baywatch being on TV. And, I mean, I really liked Pamela Anderson a lot. I just never really sat down to watch Baywatch. And David Hasselhoff, who's like the head lifeguard, right? Yeah. He's freaking Michael Knight, right? Knight Rider? Yeah. I mean, Knight Rider was a great show. So that's got everything going for me. It's got Michael Knight and Pamela Anderson back in the day.
    5:18
    I mean, what else would have been better? And Yasmin Bleeth. Don't forget about her. Yes. Okay. Yes. There was an all-star cast of ladies in the Baywatch. Yeah. That were very, very attractive. Yeah. But, okay. Was Sophia Vergara? She wasn't a Baywatch babe, was she? The funny part is I've watched like two episodes my entire life, too. But the pinball machine's awesome. Yeah. A friend of ours had one. He's like, this is the greatest game ever. And we're like, you're smoking crack. Played it, and it was like, wow, this game is actually pretty good. So bought one.
    5:49
    Kind of bought one as well. And we know of one other Baywatch in the area. We're in the Chicagoland area. Not saying that there's not. But out of, what, about 15, 20 pinball people that we know? You know what it is? It's the guilty pleasure. It's like stuffing the adult magazines underneath your mattress. You might be a frequent reader in partake, but you stash that off to the side. You don't ever admit that you had anything like that. I think that's the Baywatch pin. I bet you there's more out there than people tend to want to go ahead and admit to.
    6:24
    So you're saying it's like Baywatch is your community bicycle. Right. Whatever it takes. Okay. All right. I don't know. I'm just thinking. I probably agree with you. You know, I don't know how popular it would be with, you know, some families with the... Some of the alternate trans lights I've seen for Baywatch are pretty bad. Quite, yeah. Yeah. Not safe for work, so to speak. No, no. Like the World Poker Tour alternate. Yeah, World Poker Tour. Yeah. Playboy. Playboy, exactly.
    6:55
    Exactly. So... So, yeah. Looking to try and find a nice Wizard of Oz or Ghostbusters. Demolition Man is another one that I wouldn't mind finding a nicer version of as I only have a player's condition, and I really like the game. What is it about Demoman that's pulled you in? Because I know you originally kind of picked one up because it was a good deal. I think your intention was to kind of get it, play it, and maybe move it along, but it's kind of gotten you, it's grabbed a hold of you a little bit, and you're looking at getting a nicer version of the Demoman. It is. It's relatively simplistic. A lot of fun shots. I really like the claw and the five different modes you can kind of get into from there.
    7:36
    What, Demoman is early 90s? Or mid-90s? Like mid-90s. 94, 95? Yeah. Okay. So for the time, it wasn't a deep game, considering this is right after Twilight Zone and games of that nature. but it's just, you know, I find it to be a good flowing pen or, you know, like a more modern-ish T2. Yeah, okay. I can see that in the play field kind of. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of T2 a little bit. Maybe there's a hot dog insert on there or something that was like, hey.
    8:09
    No, no, there's no squares, but the colors are very similar to T2, just, you know, more of a layout. Yep. With more ramps, real ramp heavy. And I'm typically not a ramp-heavy kind of individual, but on that game, it flows well. So. Oh, you know, this was just handed to me. This just in, ladies and gentlemen, in the world of pinball, breaking news. There is nothing going on. So we will have to continue to talk about Baywatch and Demoman and wanted to buy ads here for a little bit until we get into some other news.
    8:43
    Because it's summer. It's slow time. Everyone's on vacation. Yeah. Everybody's kind of checked out. I think the excitement of Iron Maiden is really all you have going for yourselves right now for those that are still looking to get into that pin. Iron Maiden is still a pretty wicked-looking game. Yes. Have not had a chance to jump on one. Looking forward to it. But there is, you know, Scott D'Nisi is working on a second game, allegedly. Yeah, okay, so Spooky Pinball, yeah, they did announce that Scott is going to be working
    9:18
    on game number two for him. Correct. I also did read that he was kind of, he said he wanted to work on this organically, meaning he did not want to have to necessarily work on a hard deadline. He wanted it to come naturally, which lines up perfectly with Spooky and their manufacturing right now, because I think Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle is just now getting on the line. Correct. They are still putting out Total Nuclear Annihilations, which have really superseded their expectations. expectations and uh as this game gets more traction uh on location with operators and in
    9:52
    homes um i think they're coming up around the 500 mark at this point is it that high i believe so i believe the manufacturing numbers now are in the mid fours or low to mid four so i mean that game is going to be over 500 units so the interesting thing to me at this point with scott is there's got to be some pressure to follow up your initial release with something that is just as good if not better just as good and if not better and whether that be another game that kind of emulates an
    10:25
    older bally style pin or maybe it's something that's going to utilize some more uh mechanics and you know ramps you know for for a second it'll be interesting to to see what he does very interesting um the total nuclear annihilation game is pretty wicked and it's not overly crowd with stuff it's just a simple fast flowing non-forgiving in your face kind of game which is awesome so to see him try and do something even similar to that would be extremely difficult and i think that scott can pull it off i think the thing with that is the
    11:00
    game that was released and i was um i had the opportunity to go in on some of these uh the early Jack Danger streams when TNA was still in a Whitewood stage. You were playing the Sharp Yet edition. Yeah, exactly. And the thing that stood out to me most about TNA was that, for me, it wasn't so much about one thing on the play field or the flow of the game or anything like that. It was like the music grabs you right away.
    11:31
    It's a type of music that you had never heard in a pinball machine before. And the sound, because the sound system kicks. Yeah, it has a nice sound system. And when you start playing a game that can hold its own, and the music kind of gets you going, and it's fast, and when you look at it, it looks simple. And maybe it is a simple game in comparison to today's playfield layouts. but it's so fast and the experience is so fun um that it just kind of gives you an adrenaline rush that pins that are more complicated in my opinion have not been able to do that for me um so i can
    12:09
    really appreciate what scott did the thing of this the other thing is is this is it's kind of a niche game whereas like can you really come out with another one that has the same type of experience with that kind of a playfield layout? I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. And the thing about that game that's going to be interesting to see how they pull it off, which I'm sure that they will, but with that game being what it is, it does set the bar very high, is that, as you were saying, with the sound, the layout, and everything else,
    12:40
    it doesn't look overly complicated, but with the music and the graphics and how brutal it is, you just get emerged into that game and you... I hate to say one with the pinball machine because that sounds kind of corny, but you get very involved in it and it pulls you in. You do. And it was just cool to be able to be in a live stream and play in that game. And I remember so now, I mean, I don't own a TNA. I'd like to get on the list for one. I think as they get closer towards the end of production where there not a wait I don want to necessarily preorder a pin and have to wait too long for one I like kind of immediate gratification when it comes to purchasing stuff
    13:23
    Even pre-ordering now is not something that I'm personally not totally into. Well, and people that order every single game on the list, they see it and they're like, I'm out, I'm in, I'm out, I'm in. That doesn't do well for the hobby either. Right, right. But TNA's got a good following, and rightfully so. Again, it'll be interesting to see what Scott does to follow it up. I would imagine we won't see anything revealed for at least 12 to 18 months, if I had to guess.
    13:54
    I know sitting down and coming up with a pinball schedule has got to be hectic. And then to start again from Whitewood status, it's got to be challenging. But, I mean, we both know Scott is multifaceted. He's good at what he does. He's very thorough. Very dedicated. He's very dedicated. He's passionate, you know, about the hobby and about everything that's going on. So, you know, if anybody can pull it off, it would probably be him. And Scott Denise is awesome. I've seen it on the shirts at Pinball Life.
    14:24
    Yep. Yes, multiple times. Yes, and even at pinball shows. And everywhere else. You can find him on Facebook. Absolutely, absolutely. As we're on the topic of spooky pinball. Real quick, though, before you jump, I would still like to see them release a, this would be the game that you would buy, a Sharpie edition of the Total Nuclear Annihilation. Do a run of like 10, not crazy numbers, but just this was what the game was.
    14:55
    I'm sure that you'd have 10, 20 people want to scoop those up. Did we talk about that in the first podcast? We did, but just reiterating it. Limited edition, Whitewood, just Sharpie. Just reiterating it, yeah. Yeah, that would be cool. I mean, as far as like, that would be the ultra-limited edition of like any pin that's been released recently. You do a run of 25 of those, that'd be pretty wicked. It'd be pretty cool. Yeah, and as far as theme, hopefully it's something that fits the theme of nuclear annihilation, you know, like global war or something along those lines to kind of match up with that one.
    15:27
    You know, like your Earthshaker and Whirlwind kind of match up. The disaster themes. Correct. So you want sister pins. I think that'd be cool. You want something with... Well, maybe it'll be a sister pin of time travel. It could be rainbows and unicorns. It could be synthesizers and kind of like a Stranger Things. Well, see, I keep talking about Stranger Things. I would love to see that as a pinball machine. Yeah, so if anyone works in the business and they're making a Stranger Things pinball machine, let us know. We can come take a look. I would like to be a tester for that game.
    15:58
    I would, too. So I was going to say that with Spooky Pinball, Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle is on the line, or they've started manufacturing on that. So have you had any opportunity to see any of the uploaded gameplay or video footage of Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle? I haven't seen any of the video footage. I've seen pictures of the game and the cabinet, and they look pretty wicked. I look forward to seeing one and getting some time on it. I'd like to see it too. There was not a leaked picture, but I guess there was a bonus picture
    16:28
    that was put up by a pinsider that has since made the rounds of just the bare play field and the amount of artwork that's kind of covered up in the back by the castle. I guess there's like a skeleton of a snake that looks really kind of cool going up through the back that you'll never see on the pin. No, I saw that today and actually that's why I was like, wow, that game looks pretty freaking wicked. I really like the artwork. And the butter cabinets too. Yeah, the butter cabinets are, I mean, it's such a higher end luxury for, my problem with the
    16:59
    butter cabinets is this and i think charlie from spooky would tell you the same thing it's it's not anything that's necessary but if if it's just something you really really want to go all in go for it any pinball machine that i have the way that my setup is it's going to you're not going to see side art most of the time yeah um but i guess for resale collectability or if that's going to be a showpiece in a game room um the butter cabinet is it's pretty cool um that being said there are cabinets that i would like to have cleared just because i know that they're protected and they're clear-coated, so I guess that's the other end of the spectrum, too.
    17:31
    And it also depends on the game, too, because there are those, you know, you've got Stern with the Pro, Premium, and LE. What's the difference between a Premium and an LE? Not a whole lot. I mean, there's graphics, maybe a couple of features. Some armor, perhaps. Yeah, but it's nothing too crazy, but it commands a higher dollar amount. Up until Iron Maiden, though, Stern really stepped up to Iron Maiden and LE. Oh, they blew it out of the park on that one. Right, and I'm hoping that they maintain that standard with their future released LEs
    18:03
    because I think that's what everybody expects out of an LE. But just all around, with Iron Maiden, that pinball machine, looking at the LE model, everything that they did on that game was just absolutely incredible, and they've really bumped up their expectations and want to deliver the baddest game that they can. Right. And by bad, I mean good, obviously. Right. Bad boy good. What else is going on? Something that I read, I guess a couple weeks ago, maybe a month ago, I've been following the Dutch pinball fiasco with Big Lebowski and how that pinball machine was supposed to take Stern by storm when it was released at Expo a few years back.
    18:51
    Fast forward now, most people that have put money into the machine have lost their money. And the speculation is because of mismanagement by Dutch Pinball on the production money. The other speculation is that ARA, who was the original manufacturer of the pinball machine, decided to hike prices and hold pins hostage unless those prices were paid. Dutch Pinball decides that they're going to go ahead and they're going to take manufacturing over to China, which is something that Home Pin has done. And they're going to try to make pinball machines over there to make everybody whole on their pre-orders.
    19:24
    and then what happens is ARA decides that they're going to put a lawsuit on Dutch Pinball for the unpaid pinball machines that they built that are sitting in storage that are already prepaid by buyers that are not getting those pins so what Dutch Pinball decides to do is hey, you know what, we have to cease any manufacturing right now because we've got a lawsuit, we have to counter sue ARA drop production with Zytec which is their Chinese manufacturer and what it all boils down to is just a big mess so it's he said she said still trying to figure
    19:59
    out exactly what the lawsuits are entailing um between ara and dutch pinball regardless there seems to have been some type of potential mismanagement it seems to be i can't speak yeah we weren't there we don't know what happened either way we know that there's not enough money to make the games there was an issue with the manufacturer they tried to get the games made and now they can't. Right. So there's no more money to pay for the machines that are in storage, I suppose,
    20:30
    or they decided they don't want to pay for those machines. But the people that preordered don't have those machines. They're running the risk of not ever getting those machines. So you're thinking, okay, cut your losses, that's it. But now there's this team of people that call themselves the Seattle Seven, And they are organizing crowdfunding or crowdsourcing money, I think, in order to help pay the legal battle with Dutch Pinball and ARA.
    21:00
    Now, listen, I'm all for giving everybody the benefit of the doubt. But after the years and years and years of people being strung along. Promises without delivery. and really just almost some blatant misrepresentation on what was actually happening that i think has been proven to now be in a situation where crowd funding is being asked to give dutch pinball more money to defend themselves it's just hey bill real quick it blows my mind this makes no sense to me
    21:38
    I don't understand it either. First off, I think The Big Lebowski was a great game. Got to play it quite a bit. Really enjoyed it. Thought it was really unique. Would love to have had one. Still would love to have one. I can't afford a $20,000 machine, though, that I can't get parts for. But they did open up a specialty department, I also read, where you can buy some parts for Dutch pinball machines. Oh, okay. Like the plastics for Bride of Pinbot 2.0. Who doesn't need those? Exactly. Right.
    22:09
    Which, you know what, God bless they're trying to take care of the customer. The few games, the games that are out there, I'm not sure number-wise how many are out there. That's irrelevant. I'm glad to see that they're trying to make those people whole and not have a game that everything's obsolete and you're screwed for parts, which is really awesome. You know what would be great is if they could take every single part in the Big Lebowski, sell them individually on the website, and when all the parts come, you just build your own Big Lebowski. Big Lebowski in a box. Right. Like a flat pack.
    22:40
    Like it's just a DIY Big Lebowski. Kind of saying this because he knows there's people out there like myself. You know, six grand, I built my own game. No problem. You know, it's going to take me five years. I'll take it on. No problem. Exactly. Like a giant puzzle. No big deal. The reason I'm bringing this up, we've seen so many debacles in pinball recently with companies that have made promises and failed. And it's just – I just don't see how you can give Dutch Pinball any more money for legal battles.
    23:11
    I mean, I would love that that would work itself out. And these people that preordered those pins got those. Got made whole. That's the most important thing, right? Yeah. So maybe there should be some crowdfunding that goes to Dutch Pinball to pay ARA for those pins and just get those released. Yeah. And then worry about manufacturing. But, you know, and again, this is a lot of speculation on my part just on what I've read. I don't have any information or inside information on any of this. Well, we weren't there, so we can't. No, no. We're not fully competent in all the ins and outs.
    23:44
    I've been a quiet spectator in that thread, and I know people that have been involved in this whole saga. And it just boggles my mind that there are now people that are trying to raise more money to fight the good fight, I suppose. Well, you know what, here, long and short, my opinion is I like the game. I think it's a wicked game. I think it showed a lot of promise. That said, it's a shame that it is not getting made. Hopefully it will get made. But the people that put the money in and haven't received anything, that's not right.
    24:16
    So I would love to see those people get made whole before anything else happens. I agree. And I think that's got to be where the crowdfunding goes for. And maybe that's in the works. I don't have any idea. Yeah. But, you know, it's just one of those things. Take it as it goes. We can't control. And honestly, you know what? Maybe we're looking at it wrong, and maybe they get the crowdfunding, and they get the lawyers, and they get the games released, and everything all works out. We don't know how that's all going to play out, and hope to God that it just doesn't throw more money down the drain. Well, I think about, like, people trying to be a lifesaver,
    24:49
    and that goes American Pinball. with the whole Houdini thing. John Papaduke's design that just kind of stalled. American Pinball stepped in. They did help to get those machines, or not Houdini, I'm sorry, Magic Girl. Yeah. Just recently, they've been shipping Houdini. But the Magic Girl situation, they stepped in and tried to help out. And they did get games in the hands of those that pre-ordered. They weren't the games that were supposed to be there. But, again, that wasn't American Pinball releasing a product that they really approved of.
    25:19
    They were just trying to help to get those machines in the hands of the people that had pre-ordered. At least you have something tangible. Well, all right. And you know what? Yeah. They got them something. And it's funny because there's a lot of features on that game that allegedly don't work. I don't know. Never seen one. Never played one. If that is the case, you're still talking about a pinball machine that was, what, like $16,000 brand new? And now they're selling for $20,000 for a game that doesn't quite live up to the expectations? The collectability, the rarity. Yeah. So the people that bought it, yeah, did they get what they were promised as far as features?
    25:53
    No. But they're going to get a return on their toy. But that's where I commended American Pinball for making the effort to try to help. Oh, absolutely. Because if they hadn't stepped in. Nothing would have happened. Nobody had a Magic Girl that they could sell for $20,000 or $30,000. Yeah. They just really didn't have anything. So that was unfortunate. But now you're in like your third tier of this episode or storyline. because now you've got Deep Root Pinball that has John Papaduke on staff, and they have agreed to the rights of the artwork with Zombie Eddie, Jeremy Packard.
    26:27
    I don't know how far that actually went. I believe that they came to an agreement where they own the rights for Magic Girl Alice in Wonderland Was it Atomic Zombie Whatever the heck it is. Yeah. I was going to say Wonderland. I'm not as familiar with. But that did happen. Okay. So now does Deep Root come out with another version of Magic Girl? and if they did, I would imagine it can't be the same semi-working prototypes
    27:00
    that were shipped out to the original buyer. It's just there's like three different companies almost that are putting their hands on this pinball machine. I just want to see the thing through. I just want to see what happens. Well, let's just play the guessing future game. So let's say that Deep Root actually does come out with Magic Girls. All the features do work. It's a great game, beautiful. they make it unlimited an unlimited run of it well you take you know like cgc came out with medieval madness le's and all that kind of stuff but what's worth more the remake or the original
    27:36
    if you had you know an original completely restored brand new game next to the cgc which one commands the higher dollar and i think it's a good question i dependability can kind of go either way you know i think just depending on how often you're playing it in certain situations but i think the one the original will always be a little higher because it was an original it's been around 20 years well let me ask you this though i mean the attack from mars pins that came out the le's were eight thousand dollars or nine thousand dollars something like
    28:11
    it right i think it was 79.95 okay when that happened and when those were released you could no longer find an attack from mars that was that high everything had dropped even like high-end restorations whether i think like maybe brian kelly or chris uh hutchins from Hutchinson from HEP. Those might have been in that ballpark,
    28:41
    but I think I remember even seeing those for like $6,500. So in my opinion, and this just goes back to Medieval Madness because we had both played a Medieval Madness remake and then we had an opportunity to play an original Medieval Madness, which is right now in your basement. In the bird room. It's now part of the bird cage. They love the Invisiglass. They were on the pin? Yeah. No, they weren't. No, that's okay. They were locked up the whole time.
    29:12
    You choose to assert your Fifth Amendment privilege. No, no, no. No Fifth Amendment. They were in the cage the whole time. The uncle-in-law was too scared of them getting out. Okay. No, but you know what, though? I mean, here's the other... Well, just let me finish real quick. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. So we played both. The newer one was pretty because it was brand new. Correct. And our friend Sean has one of those in his basement. And the remake is just, it's an awesome pin. I did feel that, although the original didn't look as pretty as the remake,
    29:47
    that for some reason, and I'm not one to buy in to talk about this, it just felt kind of broken in. Like the shots felt like they flowed a little bit better. Yes. And I can't put my finger on it because supposedly it's the same parts, and maybe it's just because those flippers had been flipped for a while. but I think that there was a flipper rebuild kit on the original. Those flippers, it just felt different to me. Well, and you know what? The flippers on the remake, I guess, are like a tenth of a second or some crazy number,
    30:17
    but they are slightly slower, so people are doing stuff to change those out. Was that on Medieval Madness? Because I think that was disproven on Attack from Mars. There was a code update where there was some randomization that was hitting all the coils at the same time, and that could potentially cause a little bit of a delay. It's been a long time since I remembered this or since I remember reading about that. Yeah. And you know what? I mean, either way, if you have an LE and guess what? If it's a tenth of a second slower, you get used to it.
    30:50
    You got a broken-in Medieval Madness, you get used to it. I think what it came down to is they figured out that all those flippers, the originals and the remakes, all had the same delay. And to your point, it was just so lightning fast that the human eye and reaction could never really pick it up. But maybe with muscle memory, you're able to kind of overcompensate for a delay that you can't catch it with your eye, but your mind's quicker. I don't know. That whole thing blows my mind, too. Yeah, but you level a game and keep it that way for two years. You take a degree off of it, and suddenly you can't hit anything on it,
    31:22
    and then you just wind up getting used to it. Oh, right. Or realigning your flippers and being just slightly off on something can be. Or the catchphrase, just a bit outside. Just a bit outside. Try the corner and miss. Yeah. Great, great movie. Yes, it is. That's what we were talking about yesterday. Major League, the movie. As a pinball machine. Just a pretty badass pinball machine as a re-theme or as an original. Because it's a baseball-themed pin, but it's just an awesome movie. I love that movie. There's so many one-liners in that movie.
    31:54
    Oh, yeah. Bartender Joe Boo needs a refill. Crisco, Vagisil, any one of them gave me another two, three inches on my curveball. You put snot on the ball. I'm not as young as you are. One day you will, too. Where have you been playing? California Penal League? Yeah, so we were talking about this yesterday. Stolbert! Is that you, Stolbert? I'm hungover. My knees are killing me. And if you're going to pull this shit, you could at least say you're from the Yankees. And then you hear that.
    32:25
    Like the Mexican mariachi in the background. Oh, yeah. Jake Taylor. That's a great opening scene. Oh, it's awesome. It's such a great movie. Well, if anyone's motivated to email us or do a Facebook message, what would you rather see, a Back to the Future or a Major League? I think Back to the Future would win out just because... Family theme. And that's been such a huge... I mean, people are still trying to get Back to the Future pins. But I will tell you what,
    32:56
    I don't think Major League would be too far out of being a pretty successful pin. maybe in a smaller run. It's not going to sell 10,000. You never know. Well, I'd be in for one if it was halfway decent. Oh, yeah, absolutely. See, the thing with that is you're like Big Lebowski, very cult following movie, but like Dazed and Confused. You got a pinball machine? No, it would be a lot cooler if you did. That'd be awesome, man. So you have these like cult. What a great soundtrack, too, for Dazed and Confused.
    33:26
    An awesome soundtrack. Yeah, that'd be killer. Yeah, especially with the shotgun scene. Yeah. See, it's funny you bring this up because, again, going back to American Pinball, who they are shipping Houdini right now, and our buddy Joe right down the street just got his new in-box Houdini. After this, we're going to go back out to Joe. Go play it. Yeah, I want to go down there and put some time on it. I had an opportunity to go in. Josh Coogler kind of showed me a little bit of the ins and outs of that pin before they were actually being produced, and I dropped off some Two Brothers beer to that location.
    33:58
    and don't forget that the special Pinball Podcast is brought to you by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, home of the Pinball Pale Ale but it's fun, but now they're talking about making speculation is that their second follow up to Houdini is a license free pin, in the sake that it's not a movie pin, it's not based on a comic book character but it's rumored to be Octoberfest I'm curious to see that I'm really liking how some of the manufacturers now are starting to get into the non-licensed games.
    34:34
    You know, especially with Williams back in the day, not everything was licensed. They had a lot of non-licensed games. They had a lot of licensed games that, you know, kicked ass, like Adam's Family, T2, Twilight Zone, Demoman, all those, Elvira. But then you also had Medieval Madness, your Attack from Mars, your Champion Pubs, your No Good Gophers. so I mean I think there's a lot of room for both which I think was supposed to be Monster Mash originally right that got switched up Medieval Madness kind of reminds me of a
    35:06
    Monty Python type thing so it's like they were kind of non-licensed pins that teetered on licensing at some point what was going on at the time like Cactus Canyon came out around you know I think a year or two after Tombstone came out and if you want to talk that's another classic Tombstone is another classic movie from the 90s, like Casino, Goodfellas. Right. We had a conversation for about an hour and a half in your basement about a year ago about what would be a cool re-theme for pinball machines.
    35:37
    Yeah. And we had some crazy ones that I think now I've read that some members in the pinball community have taken on these projects. Like I know Airplane was one of them. Blazing Saddles was another one that we were thinking about. Coming to America. What else did we have on that list? I think the National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation was one that we were really collaborating on potentially doing a pin. I mean, you'd have to have a pretty cool light show for that pin. You would. It would be some cool play field toys. Not so much of a soundtrack, so you'd have to try to figure out something there.
    36:09
    Gone in 60 Seconds. And you know what? Now I realize, I think a lot of those are very cult-follower movies just because, you know, airplane. Well, Gone in 60 Seconds, I mean, now that's something that you've been talking about, like car-themed pin. I mean, how many, well, you've gone in 60 seconds, and what was the? Fast and Furious. I mean, that's, what, seven or eight movies in the franchise? Yeah, I think they're coming out with 10. That's incredible. I mean, if you can make 10 movies, you should be able to make one pinball machine. Yes, you should. And honestly, if that's true, you know, I was just kind of reading that the other day,
    36:42
    that they're releasing another one and maybe one after that. We're in 2018. That means that they're going to be at least two years in two years, so that would bring you into 2022. and that means that that movie would have a 20-year run. That's incredible. And that's like a soap opera, literally. Yeah, yeah, the young and the fast. Yeah, I wonder what, I mean, somebody has to have considered this as a license. You would like to hope so? I mean, James Bond is another movie franchise that's gone on forever, and there was a Golden Eye pin that is popular now.
    37:14
    But if you were to take what we have available with LCD screens and RGB lighting and intricate code sets and take a movie franchise like that. I mean, it would be incredible. And I'm not a car guy, but that would be fun to play. Like, even playing High Speed or Getaway, those are just fun car-themed games. I never really played a lot of Corvette or Mustang. I bet you those are pretty fun. Let's put those on the list of games to scoop up if we ever get the opportunity. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Gone in 60 Seconds or Fast and Furious would be...
    37:44
    And going in 60 seconds, it's only, you know, obviously one film in that series for, you know, the 2000 version. But it would still be an awesome, awesome pin. And I digress, though. I mean, because I was starting with Oktoberfest, and then I got sidetracked. I'm sorry. Oh, no, I think I helped you there. Yeah. So Oktoberfest, I think a lot of people are assuming this would be a beer-themed pinball machine, which, as being sponsored by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, would be kind of a cool thing,
    38:14
    Very nice. That we talk about in pinball and on this podcast. But I think the Oktoberfest theme is more of the celebration of Oktoberfest in Germany, and it expands more than just drinking and scatly-clad women with beer steins. I think it goes on more of just a celebration of whether it be heritage or just good times, music and festivities. So I can see where that would fit in with what American Pinball has said. they would like to try to do, or as part of their mission statement, is to have pinball
    38:48
    machines that are family friendly. Yeah. And with that said, you know, with what they did with Houdini, when I heard that they were making Houdini, I was skeptical. And after seeing it and seeing pictures of it, I'm pretty pleased with it. After this, I'm hoping to go put in some games on a Houdini and be able to give you a better feedback. Especially considering the original Houdini that was shown. I mean, this is a completely different pin that they rocked out remarkably fast. Yeah, it wasn't like a year or 18 months or something crazy.
    39:19
    Yeah, it might have even been less than that when they had that redesign done. I mean, for them to work under that kind of a pressure and to put out that kind of an end product is impressive. Well, and they're taking care of their customers, the people that want the games. And with how many situations we've seen where people didn't get their games, they lost money, they took money out of the hobby. You know, it's nice. It's refreshing to see them. kicking ass and going for it and not letting the stupid stuff just take them down. Yeah no right right You know Exactly Any one of those things could have you know well I mean a lot of that fun you know fueled by money and you have to be able to endure those kinds of storms but it nice
    39:59
    to see that they are and they have delivered on bringing the games to market you know what's cool too is uh davil who is the owner of the company if you ever had an opportunity to sit down and talk to the guy at the pinball shows or if you stop in american pinball he's just a super humble nice guy and he's running this business. I don't know what his pinball background is necessarily, but I mean, he's just passionate about running the business and making it a successful business. So it's kind of nice to have somebody that's, you know, not cocky and
    40:29
    guns a blazing and, you know, been pretty much in the background of all of this. You don't really hear his name mentioned as much and he's pioneered this whole company that is potentially going to be a major competitor moving forward. I think the second game will say a lot for American Pinball. Oh, yeah. And going to that, I mean, we have a mutual friend that went into American Pinball when he was thinking about buying a Houdini. They even showed him the line. Big Joe. Big Joe were very cordial, and I'll never forget him saying,
    41:02
    you know, that was one of the best experiences I've ever had, just being able to meet them, talk with them, get some feedback, test the game, and then be able to buy one later on down the road when they started So we have two jerks that each own Houdini's now, right? Yes, we do Yeah, Joe C. and Joe S. Joe K. C. and Joe S. St. Charles Yep Yeah, shout out to you guys Good job, you guys are Houdini blood brothers Eskimo brothers on the Houdini There you go Right We'll have them on the show sooner or later Hey, and that text message is brought to you by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing
    41:35
    Actually, hey, you know what that is? That's Dwight Sullivan giving us the shout out saying, hey, have a good podcast. And he's looking forward to being on the show next week. So for those of you that don't know, we will be interviewing Dwight Sullivan from Stern Pinball, and he's a senior game developer over there. Pinball machines such as Star Wars, Game of Thrones, Ghostbusters, his last three, not in sequential order. Terminator 3, Terminator 2, Getaway, Star Trek, The Next Generation, Champion Pub.
    42:06
    Riverboat Gambler. Was he Riverboat Gambler? I know Mark Ritchie designed that game. I don't know. You'll have to listen to the interview. So, you know, it'll be a little bit of a teaser. And I will say this. We both know Dwight a little bit. Dwight's not a shy guy, and he has no problem carrying a tune, if need be. And you shall listen next week. It should be a great interview, as Dwight is very animated and has lots and lots of stories. He's just a good guy.
    42:37
    He's a good guy. And he's passionate about pinball. And, you know, we've always appreciated what he's offered, what he's brought to the table. So it'll be fun to have him in the studio and see what happens. Now, I realize he loves his Pepsi. So if you ever see him at a show and you want him to sign something, you better come with a Diet Pepsi or he ain't signing it for you. It's got to be Black Label. Black Label Pepsi. Yeah. He's like, my preference is Black Label. And I was like, oh, Johnny Walker? He's like, Pepsi. Yeah. I'm like, whoa. Them's fighting words. Yeah. So we'll have to see how he adapts to Two Brothers Pinball Beer as we don't promote competitors.
    43:10
    Yeah, right, exactly. It's okay, though. It's okay. It's all in good fun. So what else we've got going on? I think that's almost about it. Kind of a slow week, but I think as we, believe it or not, we are getting closer to Pinball Expo in Chicago, which happens in October. I know we're going to be creeping in July, August, September, October, so you're looking at about four months out. There will be a lot going on. There will be a lot more to talk about. Games that potentially are going to be revealed. I think potentially Joe Bouser had stated that American Pinball might have their second release debuting there.
    43:47
    Stern is rumored to have one, if not two, games up there. One of them might be a Kapow title that's going through Stern. I would imagine at that point Alice Cooper Nightmare Castles will be shipping. So there will be machines there to be played. and uh what else cgc should probably have uh their next game thanks for bringing that up i mean there's been a pretty big delay on the announcement of this follow-up release which has been speculated as being monster monster bash um but reading the forums it's not because of a licensing issue more
    44:21
    of they wanted to ensure the quality control before they released it which i believe that i mean they make real high quality games and they take care of their customers yeah i mean it'll be interesting to see what what they have the the extra large dmd that's on attack from mars is now i guess there's a test game over at logan's arcade logan's hardware in chicago that has medieval madness with the extra large dmd so that's being tested there so that will be an add-on that will be offered i'm assuming uh for medieval madness owners that have that pin uh currently which is
    44:55
    kind of interesting that'd be pretty wicked to see yeah it's a cool thing it's one of the coolest things I think that I've seen. I almost prefer that versus an LCD screen in some games. Yeah. So that'll be kind of cool. I guess potentially we'll see Monster Bash. Jersey Jack Pinball. We should start seeing game shipping, I would assume, by August, September. So I would assume that there will be, maybe not an announcement of another game by Jersey Jack, but you'll have that updated game in heavy rotation. The revised Pirates of the Caribbean.
    45:26
    We're still off on Deep Root Pinball and their Five Days of Deep Root, which will be debuted at Texas Pinball Festival, which is in March of 2019. Correct. So unless they throw any other teasers or give any other information, it's going to be hard to really see what they're working on behind the scenes. And I'm real curious to see what happens with whether there was rumor or word that there was going to be a Pinball Palooza in September in Chicago this year. So I'm curious to see how that pans out. Yeah, I think what actually ended up happening with that is that got canceled, and it will just be Expo as normal,
    45:59
    but it will be run with one of the co-founders of Expos and not the other. So there was some drama there. I don't know what got figured out or what didn't get figured out, but supposedly now it is one show. It will be Expo as we know it as far as dates and location. There may or may not be changes. I'm not sure. My one thing was that this is my local Expo, and whether there's drama or whether there's issues with people running the show,
    46:30
    with all due respect to those guys because I'm sure they work hard, I don't really care. I just want to go support my local expo, and I'm not going in there to worry about who's getting in trouble with who. Just set up a nice experience for everybody. I've had a good time there the last few years I've gone. Yeah, it's always been a good show. I've really enjoyed it. We all go get dinner right across the street at a local establishment. Very family-friendly. Then go into... Is that family-friendly? Okay.
    47:00
    Well, depending on which night you go. That's true. Yeah, you don't want to go like the Friday night. There's not a whole lot of options within walking distance of the Expo parking lot. No. But it's a good time, you know. Some years have been busier than others, and some have been a little less crowded. But it's always a good show to go to. So kudos to those pinball companies that support that expo too. For American Pinball to try to bring game number two over there, I think that's huge. I really would hope that Spooky Pinball decides to have a presence there this year. I know that they had a difference of opinion on the promoter of that show over the last couple years.
    47:35
    With the changes in place, I would really hope that they're there with TNA and with Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. Stern's always been a company that brings a lot of pinball machines in there. Yeah, they're definitely the big dog. them in Jersey Jack. I was going to say, Jersey Jack, the last two Expos, they've kind of owned the Expos with the revealing of Dialed In, which is one of the best pinball machines that I think that you can play. Yes. And then with Pirates, which I don't have literally a minute of time on, but I'm anxiously looking forward to putting time on that pin. I just
    48:05
    haven't been in a situation to do so. But they've been, you know, busting it out over there with their reveals. Yeah, they have. And you know what? At Expo, the nice thing is the stern brings probably what 20 games so anything that you could potentially you know that's being run at the time that you could possibly think of buying it's probably going to be there not probably it will be there yeah you know and it's it's like an industry show too where you're going to get a lot a lot of information and talks from uh you know programmers and designers
    48:35
    and and that sort of thing so i think and that's something that i haven't taken advantage of i haven't really sat down in the conference halls and listened to these talks because ironically dude like i go to these machines or to these uh pinball uh shows chicago expo and i end up talking with so many people that by the time i'm leaving like i barely played any pinball at all and that's like i always think i'm gonna go there i'm gonna play a bunch of pinball figure out what i want to do moving forward i hardly ever play pinball there well that's the nice thing is that a lot of these people that design games are involved with games just the games in general you wind
    49:08
    up sitting and talking to you talk to one guy for 20 minutes you talk to another guy for 20 minutes before you know it, it's 11.30, and you're like, wow, I've got to go. Yeah, no, it's fun. And some of these vendors that you order parts from in Art Blades and all this kind of stuff, and you send out part or coding requests to, you're sitting down and you're talking to these guys, and they're all really good people. Yes, great people. Yeah, yeah. If there's one thing I'm grateful in the hobby, it's just a whole different set of people I never would have been exposed to if it weren't for pinball, and for that I'm grateful.
    49:38
    So to all you guys that make it to Pinball Expo and put on a great show, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you for supporting our local expo. There's one other bit of news, unless you've got something else, that I wanted to just one more quick shout-out to somebody that has been in the hobby for a long time, has taken a lot of games that were average, below average and above average, and made them superb. A guy that poured a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into restoring pinball machines,
    50:09
    and that is Brian Kelly of Minnesota. Recently posted that he is working on a Bram Stoker's Dracula for himself, his own personal pin. And he thinks that that might be his last restoration. Really? After 100 restorations. So Brian is at least contemplating that he may be out of the restoration game. And he couldn't see a more fitting pinball machine to close out that career on than his own personal Bram Stoker's Dracula. So Brian, to you, I can totally understand where you could get burnt out on something.
    50:41
    after doing 100 restorations, I don't know that I could do two or one restoration that would hold a candle to what you've done. I personally owned a Brian Restored HUO Scared Stiff, which of any pin I've ever owned was the pride of my collection. I ended up, I couldn't keep it here because I've got smaller kids that scared the hell out of me when they would breathe around it. Or set an open juice box on top of it. That's what it was. It was the Hi-C box. Yeah, I'll never forget that phone call. You know what my kid did? Right. I'm like, no. It's like either the pin's going or I'm going to probably go to jail.
    51:13
    Yeah. But, yeah, you know what, Brian? I'm sure I speak for a lot of people. Thanks so much for all the effort you put in. I hope that you reconsider at some point and maybe just do it on the side a little bit more casually. But thank you so much because there are games out there that survived that would not have otherwise. And if they did survive, they wouldn't be anywhere near in the condition that they are now. Absolutely. And you've done some gorgeous, gorgeous work. and after seeing Ken's Scared Stiff and a lot of the posts in Pinside of the things that you've done, just incredible.
    51:45
    And I look forward to seeing the last game, the BSD, and what you do with that game because that should be pretty outstanding. Yeah, slip it back in the personal collection. So there you go, Brian. Well, we'll miss you, but I think we got it, Bill. Anything else you're thinking of right now? No, thinking it's time to get another beer. We got a little outro music. Yeah, a little Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale that we've been sipping throughout the podcast, and we'll have our post-game party wrap-up with the Pinball Pale Ale.
    52:16
    But, hey, so listen, we want to take this opportunity to thank everybody that's listening to the podcast. So right now you're two in. We've got another one coming up here shortly with the Dwight Sullivan interview. That'll be number three. You can expect weekly updates from myself and Bill. Even if there's nothing going on, we're going to tell you about what's going on in our personal lives, which sometimes is more interesting than what's going on in the world of pinball, and a lot of times it's not. But, hey, we're going to fill the airways. We're going to fill some time. For myself, Ken Cromwell, and Bill Webb, we're going to say thank you so much. You guys have a good night, all right? Yeah, don't forget to take some time. Or a good day.
    52:47
    Or a good day. Or a good night. We're not live, even though it might be evening here. Right. When they listen, it could be. It could be absolutely a time zone thing. Right. Whatever you do, don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. again for Bill Webb my name is Ken Cromwell have a good one guys thanks guys have a nice night