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The Pinball Show Ep 149.5 BONUS: 2024 Texas Pinball Festival: David Asks Dennis What Was Cool There

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·30m 47s·analyzed·Mar 25, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Detailed Texas Pinball Festival 2024 impressions covering layout improvements, new game reviews, and industry dynamics.

Summary

David and Dennis discuss their experiences at the 2024 Texas Pinball Festival. Dennis attended and played new releases including Elton John (JJP), Barbecue Challenge (American Pinball), Princess Bride (Multimorphic), Ninja Eclipse (Spooky), Looney Tunes (Spooky), and others. Key topics include the show's improved layout under new management, critical assessments of game quality and commercial viability, and observations about designer prestige and sales impact.

Key Claims

  • Texas Pinball Festival is under new management and the layout was dramatically better than previous years with more space, fewer cramped banks, and better vendor accessibility.

    high confidence · Dennis, eyewitness at TPF 2024, describing layout improvements compared to prior years he attended.

  • Barbecue Challenge by American Pinball experienced a hard reboot/crash during Dennis's first ball when it tried to count bonus, with screen going black and showing HDMI connection startup.

    high confidence · Dennis describing direct experience playing Barbecue Challenge at TPF.

  • Barbecue Challenge is unlikely to sell 50 units commercially due to weak theme integration, creepy/inappropriate video content of grilled meat, and lack of compelling gameplay differentiation.

    high confidence · Dennis and David assessing commercial viability after gameplay experience; Dennis states 'I honestly i don't think they'll sell 50'.

  • Only Keith Elwin's name as a designer reliably moves pinball units; other legendary designers like Steve Ritchie and Pat Lawler do not have comparable name recognition sales power.

    medium confidence · David's analysis based on commercial performance of Pat Lawler's Dialed In and Steve Ritchie's games; discussion of designer prestige vs. sales impact.

  • Keith Elwin's Limited Edition pins sell out before arrival and none of his games rank outside the top 20 on Pinside rankings.

    medium confidence · David citing Pinside sales and ranking data, noting Keith Elwin games show strong correlation with high rankings.

  • Attendance at TPF 2024 felt lighter on Friday due to flight cancellations and delays affecting Colorado travelers.

    high confidence · Dennis reporting what he heard at the show and observed regarding attendance patterns on opening day.

  • Ninja Eclipse is the most creatively unique new layout at TPF 2024, significantly better than Barbecue Challenge, and will likely outsell Barbecue despite weak unlicensed theme.

    medium confidence · Dennis's direct gameplay assessment and comparative analysis with other new releases.

Notable Quotes

  • “The layout approach this time was dramatically better than any show I had ever been to. There was actual plenty of room to walk around.”

    Dennis @ early section — Key praise for TPF 2024's organizational improvements under new management; contrasts with prior cramped layouts.

  • “It's like this, the grilled meat could have been on Texas chainsaw massacre and felt in place. Oh no. It was disturbing.”

    Dennis @ Barbecue Challenge section — Vivid description of Barbecue Challenge's inappropriate video content, highlighting design failure.

  • “You don't just make a pin that was kind of let's say 80% there and do a theme that is 40% there just because the guy was a nice person and a legendary designer.”

    David @ Barbecue Challenge analysis — Direct critique of American Pinball's decision to release an incomplete Barry Ousler tribute game; questions business logic.

  • “The only person I know whose name sells games is Keith's.”

    David @ designer prestige section — Core industry insight: designer reputation no longer drives sales except for Keith Elwin.

  • “Some fellow in Texas who nobody's heard of with weird potato cam videos and teasers is going to outsell your seventh favorite designer of all time, Barry Ousler.”

    David @ Ninja Eclipse vs Barbecue comparison — Provocative prediction contrasting unlicensed Spooky game against tribute to legendary designer; underscores theme importance.

  • “The most interesting thing is going to be the saucer locks. The old kick, like Gottlieb from the nineties kick out.”

    Dennis @ Barbecue Challenge mechanical description — Technical acknowledgment that Barbecue Challenge's only noteworthy feature is retro lock mechanism.

  • “It's just shots. Yeah. The most interesting thing is going to be the saucer locks.”

    Dennis @ Barbecue Challenge final assessment — Sums up Barbecue's gameplay as lacking depth; only mechanic of interest is simple saucer lock.

Entities

Dennis CreaselpersonDavidpersonTonypersonZach SharpepersonEd VanderveenpersonKen CromwellpersonJack DangerpersonSteve Ritchie

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival 2024 under new management showed dramatic layout improvements with better spacing, fewer cramped banks, more game distribution across venue, and better vendor accessibility. Carpet flooring noted as positive for player experience.

    high · Dennis: 'The layout approach this time was dramatically better than any show I had ever been to. There was actual plenty of room to walk around.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Barbecue Challenge experienced hard reboot/crash during bonus counting on first ball played. Also reported similar technical issues on Texas Chainsaw Massacre (new Spooky board set).

    high · Dennis: 'I finally drain. I don't know how long I played. I think my first ball was about five minutes and the game crashed. It did a hard reboot.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Barbecue Challenge features creepy/inappropriate video content (grilled meat clips), incomplete theme integration (hot rod element missing), no interactive toys, and gameplay largely derivative of Hot Wheels layout without improvements.

    high · Dennis: 'It's like this, the grilled meat could have been on Texas chainsaw massacre and felt in place...disturbing.' Multiple gameplay observations about lack of depth.

  • $

    market_signal: Strong expert assertion that Barbecue Challenge will sell fewer than 50 units due to weak theme, poor execution, and lack of commercial appeal despite being final game from legendary designer Barry Ousler.

    high · Dennis: 'I honestly i don't think they'll sell 50' and David: 'There's nothing about it that anyone will really want, I'm afraid.'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.092

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. okay david here we all you're you're finally behind the paywall for the pinball show episode 149.5 the wallpaper is really nice in here it's beautiful it's glorious this wall i i've i have a paywall but it's it's pretty shitty compared in here well you know zach is the one who decorated this is kind of his mind palace but in podcast form and there's like this leather black couch over here what's that for well that's not really used anymore oh that's that's from the old uh twip podcast days he's kept it for nostalgia reasons you know he's a big-time dealer now he's a distributor for all the major brands until he alienates them all and they all leave him so texas pinball festival 2024 the thing everyone else has already talked about not behind a paywall so flipping the script i've put it behind the paywall and you dealing with the snowpocalypse and everything else, you were not at the Texas Pinball Festival. I was not. No. So this is like a really busy time of the year for me. I just can't get away. But I have to say, I'm always fairly attentive as to what happens at TPF because I'm really, really jealous. I really want to go.
1:41
To fly out of the East Coast down there, it's a pain in the butt and it's the winter. So we're always getting canceled flights and delayed flights. And it's like, I don't know, man. Yeah. And that actually, I heard while I was there that that impacted a lot of people kind of trying to fly out of Colorado. And so there were reports that attendance, it felt lighter. And I was hearing, yeah, a lot of people actually had their flights canceled or delayed. And so the first day, like Friday in particular, felt very light. It was shorter lines and stuff. But anyway, since you've stayed attuned in terms of stuff that was going on and I was actually there, I thought we'd do it a little bit differently. And you pick what you want us to talk about, and I could kind of tell you kind of how it played out at Texas. So like any particular games or anything about the show, and we'll just kind of do it a little weird. I don't know if this is going to work or not, but hey, it's only the Patreon members who are being subjected to it. So if it doesn't work, they'll just push stop. Okay, okay. The biggest thing in my mind is how did it go over with the layout? Because I hear that that is always the problem. If we just, before we get into the shenanigans, like, is it, is it too cramped? Is it spread out enough? Okay. That's a very good thing to start with because they're the Texas pinball festivals under new management now. Oh, so, so for years, ever since I had been attending, it had been the same couple of people that were the primary organizers that put the show together and helped grow it. And they've done a lot. They've done a lot to make Texas pinball festival, the premier pinball festival. But they were, at least Ed was there. I saw him as an attendee. But they're no longer running the show in the way that they were. And you could tell because one of the big changes was the layout. And I have to say, the layout approach this time was dramatically better than any show I had ever been to. There was actual plenty of room to walk around. It felt like there were fewer games, though I think I read that they had hit a new record on the number of games there. They had games out in the main hallway instead of just in the main room. It didn't feel like a maze to find all of the vendors. It felt way less cramped. So that was a huge improvement. The only problem that still exists, in my opinion, with the layout is they are putting – they did this last year as well. They are putting some of the really premier hit new stuff, like the spooky games, up near the front, and it is still causing a bottleneck in the entranceway. Okay. But there's no longer these super long banks, and then banks on both sides of a wall, a false wall, or whatever they'll put up, and their drayage and whatever they're doing. And so you can actually walk around. Yeah, no. Walking, finally. It was like, that was the one thing Expo had better, was it was easy to work because no one's going to go and play a bunch of broken games is why. Is it a concrete floor or is it carpet? Carpet. Okay. See, that's a big deal too. Expo's concrete. It is. And that's part of the reason why Expo is completely inferior. Ooh. Hot take behind the paywall here. I think everyone knows that what I say is true.

  • Princess Bride (Multimorphic) is heavily dependent on movie dialogue clips and plays as a long-duration game, creating line backups despite only three machines on display.

    high confidence · Dennis's direct observation at TPF regarding Princess Bride playtime and queue management.

  • Spooky's new board set (used on Looney Tunes and possibly Texas Chainsaw Massacre) sometimes causes the ball position detection to stall momentarily.

    medium confidence · Dennis describing technical issues experienced during gameplay on new Spooky titles.

  • Elton John (JJP) has good shot quality and feels familiar to Steve Ritchie's design style but lacks interactive toys beyond a tiny dancer figurine.

    high confidence · Dennis's direct gameplay assessment of Elton John at TPF.

  • “If you're like, okay, it's a fun theme. It's going to have great quotes. What is it like you step up to it and you like all right here we go. It definitely for fans of the movie the theme is is I feel really well integrated.”

    Dennis @ Princess Bride section — Assessment that Princess Bride theme appeals strongly to fans of the film despite Dennis's personal indifference.

  • “Spooky usually does really weird layouts. This is going to feel pretty familiar. It's still got a million flippers, though.”

    Dennis @ Looney Tunes section — Characterization of Spooky's design approach; Looney Tunes positioned as safer than typical Spooky complexity.

  • “I see Snoopy and I'm like, I have some nostalgia for Snoopy, but not like a desire to own Snoopy stuff.”

    David @ closing Looney Tunes discussion — David's lack of connection to classic cartoon licenses despite nostalgic familiarity; explains his view on license-driven appeal.

    • person
    John Borgperson
    Dwight Sullivanperson
    Joel Engelberthperson
    Barry Ouslerperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Pat Lawlerperson
    Dennis Nordmanperson
    Steven Silverperson
    Josh Kuglerperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Texas Pinball Festival 2024event
    Eclectic Gamers Podcastorganization
    Pinball Show Cluborganization

    industry_signal: Extended discussion establishing that designer name recognition (with exception of Keith Elwin) does not reliably drive sales. Cites Pat Lawler's Dialed In underperformance and Steve Ritchie's games as counterexamples to historical assumption that legendary designer names move units.

    medium · David: 'The only person I know whose name sells games is Keith's. Yeah. Yeah, the LEs are gone before they even come in.' Contrasted with Pat Lawler and Steve Ritchie's poor commercial performance.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Spooky's Looney Tunes described as relatively safe/familiar layout by Spooky standards despite having four flippers and unusual upper flipper configuration. More accessible than typical Spooky experimental designs.

    medium · Dennis: 'It's not going to feel cookie cutter...It's not going to feel like a fan layout, but it is a relatively safe layout.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Theme licensing and IP choice appears to be primary driver of commercial success over designer prestige or game quality. Unlicensed themes (Barbecue, Ninja Eclipse) expected to underperform despite gameplay merits.

    high · Dennis and David's repeated emphasis on theme weakness as disqualifying factor for commercial viability despite acknowledging gameplay strengths in some cases.

  • ?

    venue_signal: TPF 2024 attendance impacted by winter weather causing flight cancellations/delays, particularly affecting Colorado travelers. Friday (opening day) showed noticeably lighter attendance.

    high · Dennis: 'I heard while I was there that that impacted a lot of people...there were reports that attendance, it felt lighter...lot of people actually had their flights canceled or delayed.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Ninja Eclipse (Spooky) noted as most creatively unique new layout at TPF 2024, featuring novel scoop configurations and unconventional playfield design that sets it apart from standard layouts.

    medium · Dennis: 'Ninja Eclipse. And it actually plays pretty good...It's that's the most unique layout is ninja eclipse' and 'doing some stuff i'm not saying it all worked.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Eclectic Gamers Podcast uses Patreon membership revenue to fund attendance at major pinball events (Texas Pinball Festival), with attendees prioritizing coverage of new releases to justify audience support.

    high · Dennis: 'Tony and I for Eclectic Gamers Podcast have a Patreon and we use the Patreon money to cover the Texas trip...we view it more as a job...we make sure we play all of the new things so that we can talk about it on the podcast because we feel like we owe it.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Discussion reveals industry assumption that designer's final game carries special weight/appeal is unfounded commercially. Release of tribute game to Barry Ousler seen as emotionally motivated rather than business-sound decision.

    medium · David: 'you don't just make a pin that was kind of let's say 80% there and do a theme that is 40% there just because the guy was a nice person and a legendary designer.'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Spooky using new board set on recent games (Looney Tunes, possibly Texas Chainsaw Massacre) with reported minor technical issues where ball position detection occasionally stalls.

    medium · Dennis: 'new board set and another new computer set...sometimes the ball would sort of sit for a little bit like the system was thinking.'

    • 4:52
    Cool. So, yes. Yes, it's carpeted. Sound, I would recommend, I never do it and I need to. But I would recommend noise canceling headphones or earplugs or something because that room, it's still, it gets very, very loud just because of, it's a cacophony of sound. Okay. So what was the first pin you played? What were you like? I'm through the door. I got through the bottleneck. Where am I stopping first? My first game was actually Elton John because there was no line. Okay. So that's typical. It's very typical Dennis Creasel. It's like, what am I going to do here? It looks like I'm playing firepower.
    5:26
    No line. Yeah. No, the way I approach Texas at this point, because I've played most of them. I'm almost a Ron Hallett Jr. at this point. Okay. I've played almost everything that's out there that's old. So given that, because Tony and I for Eclectic Gamers Podcast have a Patreon and we use the Patreon money to cover the Texas trip. Oh, that was cool. So yeah, it's very, very helpful and we're very appreciative of it. And so because of that, we do view it more as a job now than we used to. And so we make sure we play all of the new things so that we can talk about it on the podcast because we feel like we owe it because people are paying us to be there. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course. So when we go, we make an initial plan based off of what games we know are going to be there. We have a list, and it's like we will play all of it. We will play Venom because we hadn't yet. We will play Elton John. We will play Barbecue. We will play Looney Tunes. So that's the thing. And that's what we prioritize doing. And then once we've done all of that, we play the old stuff. Okay. So I find that. Okay. So first we're going right to JJP with Jack around. Did you glad hand? You take a few photos. I did not see Jack at TPF. He may have been, but I did not see him. Ken Cromwell was there and I spoke to him the next day. How's Ken? Ken Cromwell is the PR person. Yeah, but he's doing well. He's doing well. Yeah. Oh, you asked how? I thought you asked who's Ken. I was like, you know, a special one lit. He was a big shot podcaster for years and years. He's dead to me now. Yeah, no, he's doing really well. Good. But no, I didn't talk to anyone when I played the game, but I enjoyed it. You know, I thought it looked like it was a good player, Elton John, and it was. Unfortunately, I couldn't hear it. That's par for the course, of course, at a pinball show. Some of the games you can hear, they crank the volume and some you can't. But it shot really well. It's going to feel familiar if you're familiar with Steve Ritchie. It looks awesome. Yeah, no, it's a good player. Could use a toy or two. I mean, the toys are like things that shake and move. It has a tiny dancer. What more do you want? Yeah, but I wanted to hit that tiny dancer just right in the fucking face. Oh, no. That what she gets That like a they made her like a you want to be the Tonya Harding and you want to make her into Nancy It like make her a little ice skater Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But that's, it's cool. All right. That's cool. Now, after that, you and Tony are like, let's hit the bar or you're going right to Princess You were so close. We hit the barbecue because you want to talk about a game without a line. Okay. Oh, no. barbecue see i was gonna i was gonna save that for the end and just tease the the uh the paywall patrons here because we can hold off on that one i'm just acknowledging that's the next thing we did no let's do we we've already got it we already spilled it so okay so you walk up to barry o's barbecue challenge and you see this front of that pin with all the photorealistic wood and you're like let's dive in yeah well we knew this one had to be played because i think the internet the pinball internet was in a mixture of of shock and awe at that this had been rumored for quite a while that it was going to be a barbecue themed game and that was going to be based off of what barry osler had been last doing when he passed away suddenly while working eating barbecue not while eating barbecue but i mean maybe oh you mean working on it well yeah working on it i don't again but everyone's kind of like why would you do this and the game it's it's not good it's it's not it's not good it's playable it's not like bally's el toro does brill does does does grill cook ball i mean the pop bumpers are grills like little grills and i they've got leds on top of them and i think they're supposed to get redder or hotter or something while you hit them. So there is some, there's like, there was an attempt at some theme immersion there, but the screen, it feels like straight out of home pen with, it's just recycling the same few clips of cooking meat, depending which mode you're in. So like we, we were playing, Tony and I were playing and it was a grilled chicken mode and we're just watching the same, like five second clip. It felt like of chicken with juice squirting on it from out of frame. And it's just like, it's like, it's inappropriate. I think it was, it was creepy. It was like this, the grilled meat could have been on. This is worse than it sounds. It could have been on Texas chainsaw massacre and felt in place. Oh no. It was, it was disturbing. And of course I'm not mostly looking at that. I'm mostly looking at my super long ball time. We are not over in the main bank with the barbecue games. I played one of those later, but I'm playing this one that's kind of off by itself. And I finally drain. I don't know how long I played. I think my first ball was about five minutes and the game crashed. It did a hard reboot. Oh God. I just, it's like it tried to count my bonus and it, and the whole, the screen went black. And then we saw like the HDMI connection and it started to reboot. And so we had to try it again because Tony didn't even get to play. So, so there's a few things that they've done here. Right. with and I understand you know Barry was working on a game and passed away tragically as it was working on but this is off the rails when it comes to like running a business right like you don't you don't just make a pin that was kind of let's say 80% there and do a theme that is 40% there just because the guy was a nice person and a legendary designer. Like, it's, you know, to throw in like a space shuttle shot with some sweepable drop targets to call back to his other games.
    11:33
    Oh, oh man. It's not, it's not good. And I hope that this is at Pentastic because you just, it's, I like Galactic Tank Force. I think that's actually really cool. And everybody kind of like, oh, haha, Galactic Tank Force and gtf and stuff like that's it's legitimately kind of fun it's an odd shooter it's not perfect it's campy it's fun like if your goal is to sell 300 pins galactic tank force is fantastic what how many pins are they selling with a barbecue theme i honestly i don't think they'll sell 50 oh i i it's that's bad that's worse than you but you've hit on you've hit on everything about it that I feel is at issue. There's nothing about it that anyone will really want, I'm afraid. And yeah, a one-off tribute game that they auctioned in honor of Barry or something would make sense. But it feels like it's straddling this line where almost like they are convinced that because it involves Barry and it's his last game in some ways, because it's not fully completed by him, that that's going to move units but they're they also they they phoned it like the like the display but you you know they went they went the complete opposite with galactic tank force love it or hate it they brought in all those actors they had all those cheesy lines they went all in script they went yeah they went all in whip crack and then here it's let's go to like shutterfly and get some clips of beef and and pork and chicken roasting and just kind of have it there in the background being all creepy and the art on the play field isn't isn't any better and it's like it's supposed to be barbecue and hot rods but at least as far in the game as i got nothing hot rod oriented was really there it's just part of the art because almost as if they decided well we can't really do it all about meat can we is it because the code isn't there yet uh the rules i i i don't know how much further than i think the rules are probably okay uh bottom line in terms of like what you're trying to do and stuff it was it seems straightforward i don't the thing is i don't think the rules have any american pinball games rules been known for being like the super in-depth journey you know when you hear about like a journey pin you're always thinking jersey jack or you might think some of the Stern games. I thought the rules were okay in terms of understanding to lock the balls and shoot the ramps and do all of that. It felt very kind of 80s, 90s-esque in its rule set. And I do think there's actually a market for that. I don't think there's a market for that with an unlicensed theme, though, especially barbecue. I just, nothing about it seems commercially viable to me. And it does shoot. It doesn't shoot like a clunker, but you look over and later on, I played one right by Hot Wheels, right by it. And some people don't see it, but because, yeah, the back third, they've mixed some stuff up. Like there's top lanes now instead of just that one magnet lane that drops in and all that. But that whole section is like uncontrollable. That's just a pop bumper section. So you've still got the same kind of vague shots and it just sort of feels like a lesser version of Hot Wheels as a layout. Is there any like one of my gripes with Hot Wheels I actually I kind of like Hot Wheels I don like it as much as Galactic Tank Force but I like Hot Wheels One of the gripes that I have with it is that there no toy Like there nothing that you hit or interact with or like when you do it you like oh I want that to I want to do that Right Like or I want that thing to happen where on GTF it got like the cow that moving back and forth with the saucer It got like a ball lock It's got, there's none of that in Hot Wheels. Is there anything like that on, on, on barbecue challenge? No. In fact, it's, it would, it's arguably even more stripped. So it's just shots. Yeah. The most interesting thing is going to be the saucer locks. The old kick, like Gottlieb from the nineties kick out. Yes. Okay. Oh, that's not good.
    15:50
    Well. So what else do you want to know about from TPF? Oh, God. Did you play GTF? Because I know you hadn't played that yet. No, I had played it. I played it last year's TPF. Okay. So no, I did not. I did play it one time again. Good. Okay. It still didn't. I didn't get any air balls, but it still didn't click for me as a theme. But I enjoyed it more than I did barbecue. Cool. Did you meet John Borg?
    16:17
    No. He was there, but I did not go up and have a conversation with him. I saw Steve Ritchie around as well. You're not like a social butterfly guy where you're like, hey, how you doing? I love Tron.
    16:28
    Designers? I'm trying to think. I've spoken with Jack Danger before, but that was before he was a designer at TPF. I've spoken to Steve Ritchie several times at TPF. He's actually come up to me a few times and just initiated conversation. Because he knows who you are? Is he in the paywall here? No, no. I think he just, he just sees like, maybe he sees me play a game or, or, uh, that's his, or just, I think he just goes up and talks to people, honestly. So he did that to me too. Yeah. I think he just likes to talk to people. So, uh, I've asked him a question, uh, before in one of his seminars that he did once upon a time years and years ago, but I think those are the only two, uh, play field designers I have had conversations with. I've spoken with Dwight before and he was apparently, I never saw him. He was apparently there. And in fact, you're a, Your arch nemesis, Joel Engelberth, messaged me when I was on the last day and he said, hey, are you still at the show? Dwight wants to talk to you about a video game. And I was already in Oklahoma. So I stopped for gas. I messaged back up. Sorry, I'm already on the road. That's amazing. I'm out of here. No, I do not stay long on Sunday. In fact, I didn't even go over to the show on Sunday this time. I looked over at Tony and said, hey, you want to get back on the road so we get back before it's dark? He's like, absolutely. We don't need to stay and wait for In-N-Out to open.
    17:50
    Okay, okay. So the other thing that I think, so like, for example, Steve Ritchie, right? Or John Borg. Those are two guys where it's like if something were to happen to Steve Ritchie, God forbid, and he had his last pin.
    18:03
    You know what I mean? This is Steve Ritchie's last pin. And it was JJP making it. And it was like Top Gun. that that's a draw right you feel like that would be a draw steve richie's last pin top gun if it's top gun yes and but if it was steve richie's airplane adventure then no right and here's why even if it's steve richie right and that's and that's the thing i think that maybe some manufacturers haven't clicked or maybe they're clicking on it now but I'm not sure American Pinball clicked on it for obvious reasons. And that's, aside from Keith Elwin, I'm not sure a designer name honestly moves enough units to be commercially substantial.
    18:47
    And the reason I'm saying that is- Including Steve Ritchie. Right. No, only Keith Elwin. That's it. Wow. That's it. Because I think we thought that, especially, even go back a few years ago, that, yeah, Keith wasn't known as a designer before he was a designer for obvious reasons, but you'd have probably thought Pat Lawler and Steve Ritchie, right? Because they were the big Titans of the nineties, but purportedly black night sort of rage, even though it's part of a litany, a trilogy of black night games did not do very well for Stern commercially. And we all know how Pat Lawler's dialed in did, even though it's his best game, right? Which is the, the Pat Lawler's career in a box. Yes. I love dialed in. It's a great, Which is an awesome game. But it did not sell well for Jersey Jack by all accounts. And so that was the proof. And I don't think being a final game is irrelevant. I don't think people care about a game being a final game. Designers do not sell pens anymore. Their names don't. And maybe they never really did. But people kind of thought they did. And it's always been like to get attention to the company. Bringing in a known name has been valuable. I think that's why Dennis Nordman has been so in demand by so many companies. and he's able to sort of contract for them is because he is a known entity with a proven track record of successful games. But the only person I know whose name sells games is Keith's. Yeah. Yeah, the LEs are gone before they even come in. And if you've got 500 or 1,000 of them, 1,000 pins is all you need to sell to make a profitable machine. Sure. And we have to be fair. I mean, the times as we talked about in our main episode with our big focus on the impact and post-COVID analysis, times have changed. It wasn't an instant sellout for JAWS. The LEs, I could find them two weeks later. You could probably still find them. Sure. So it's not even Keith Elwin's name only pulls. So people are more cautious now that it's not line go up on everything that they buy. Yeah, totally. But given where his, like if you were to do a regression analysis, I did one of these a few years ago. I was reminded of it because someone bumped the thread, and I think I started it seven years ago on Pinside, where I did a regression analysis to try and figure out what variables might influence where something's ranked on the Pinside top 100.
    21:13
    And someone was like, have you thought about redoing this? And the answer is no, I have not thought about redoing my analysis. But one of the things I did as a regression was, is the game a Williams game? And that had a slight predictor on being a higher rank. Interesting. if I redid that analysis today and asked, is it an Elwynn design? I mean, we know where they are. I don't think he has a single game that isn't in the top 20. So he's definitely going to be positively correlated with high rankings on Pinside. Okay, so my last real thing that I was like, oh God, I got to know what's up here. Princess Bride. I am not a fan I'm not a fan of the film which is really weird because it's right up my alley but I've seen it a lot I've seen it way more than Labyrinth I've seen it a couple of times and I've been like I get it some of it's kind of quotable and whatever but it's just I don't know I just don't and I'm a guy that likes offbeat humor generally the actors in there I really like the film is great now Labyrinth I actually do really like labyrinth i've seen that tons as a kid and i've seen like i just i don't get it it's just maybe it's it's not that it's dry humor it's that i feel like it's like the humor where you make a joke and you wait for like a minute which is like awkwardly long and then it's funny because you're waiting that's how i feel like princess bride is so i have no connection to the theme. So for me, it would be like, okay, it's a, it's a fun theme. It's going to have great quotes What is it like you step up to it and you like all right here we go It it definitely for fans of the movie The the theme is is I feel really well integrated There tons of clips In fact it the most clip dialogue pinball game I can think of Okay. So anything, yeah, it plays, as I noted when I first saw the reveal stream, it might be a little overly heavy on some of the clips. Though, having experienced it most of the time, it felt reasonably integrated. It's pretty natural. Yeah, but it's a long player. so the lines were long on uh the second day i played it the first day and i it was only one person deep and then the second day it was a little bit longer uh the and the reason is multimorphic had a pretty sizable presence uh at tpf as they always do but they only had three princess bride games so and as long as it played the lines ended up getting pretty deep so when when you compared that to previous years where they had like heist which i think is cool and then you've got um weird owl would you say that there seemed to be more interest around this one i feel the interest was about the same as weird owl i think they were about on par yeah i think they only had three weird owls as well when the first time so that's like steven silver and Josh Kugler on software. Yeah. I think the line moved faster on Weird Al, but Weird Al is a harder game. I've only played Weird Al a couple of times. Right. Well, I note this because like some people, like one of the questions I've seen some people online talk about is like, and I didn't even think about it when I did my EGP episode with Tony was what, like what, who won TPF? Sometimes people want to know that who won TPF. And some people were like spooky one TPF. Look at how long the lines were for Looney Tunes in Texas. It's like, that's a good point. But you need to remember, Looney Tunes in Texas are easy layouts. They play forever. So the line just backs up. Scooby was the same way. So, yeah, it's like if you don't have a lot of games and they're long players, the lines are going to be really long. And that can give a false sense of popularity. I mean, obviously, if there's a line, there's popularity because, I mean, barbecue was a long player, too, and it did not have lines. But the so, yeah, it's and I think it Princess Bride being a longer player, a friendly it's not a fan layout because it is using the upper flippers, but you can access almost almost every shot from the lower flippers. This is one right hand shot that you can't.
    25:31
    And but I think that's good for a theme like this. So I think it will do decent for them. It's just as as has been noted ad nauseum, the price point to get in on a P3 is very high with a module. So in Canada, it's through the roof. Yeah. Basically, you have to commit to LE pricing to get one game. And then after that, you can get more modules at affordable prices. But that initial commitment is very steep. And most of the catalog is unlicensed. So it's not appealing to a lot of people for theme purposes. So that's the struggle they always have. If you're like, okay, Princess Bride, buy in the module, what is it? $15,000 with a couple of modules and the actual unit itself. Or Ninja Eclipse.
    26:22
    That's interesting. Like $7,000 Ninja Eclipse. I think Princess Bride plays better than Ninja Eclipse, but Ninja Eclipse is far more bold of a game.
    26:34
    It was the most creative layout there of the new stuff. yeah it was like it was doing some stuff i'm not saying it all worked it's not a game i would want to buy but in terms of some of the scoop stuff and the layout configuration like if you're someone who's like i'm tired of the same old layouts you know you got done with looney tunes you're like i've sort of seen this layout before you got done with uh princess bride and you're like i've seen this layout before there you go it's that's the most unique layout is ninja eclipse And it actually plays pretty good. It's quite a bit better than Barbecue. And you say, what, $8 over Stern Pro? It's pretty good.
    27:12
    Yeah, it's about the... They adjusted the price on the Ninja Eclipse. So here in the US, it's basically the same price as a Stern Pro. Wow.
    27:22
    So I don't think, again, unlicensed theme. I don't think it sells very many. But that game has definitely... I remember looking at it as a Whitewood. I didn't play it as a Whitewood. and heard a lot of criticism of it. And I've seen a lot of people who have played it in multiple configurations. And I have acknowledged the game is significantly better than it had been. If it was a better theme, I think that game might actually have some potential to sell. But even without it being a strong theme, I do think it will move some units. I think it sells more than barbecue does.
    27:55
    You think Ninja, this is hot take folks. I think some of these patrons just crashed their cars. So you think that this is going to sell more than Barry O's barbecue? Yes. Some fellow in Texas who nobody's heard of with weird potato cam videos and teasers is going to outsell your seventh favorite designer of all time, Barry Ousler. Yes. Wow. Okay. What about a theme in which I am absolutely 100% in on? And that is Looney Tunes. It was fun.
    28:42
    Oh, that's it. Okay. Moving on, folks. yeah no i yeah i it was i mean there was times where it the game had a issue with i mean there was still the spooky build quality stuff i didn't experience it on the looney tunes though i experienced it on the texas chainsaw massacre but it's the same yeah um but even on looney tunes sometimes the ball would sort of sit for a little bit like the system was thinking trying to figure out like where the ball was or something like if i go in a scoop or whatnot um but it's another new board set and another new computer set isn't it yeah so like uh yeah i think i can't remember i think they may have used this new board set first though on on scooby-doo so i don't think it's brand spanking new i think they i think they used it one other time but but anyway uh saying that aside yeah it was it was i feel versus texas because i did play both uh chainsaw massacre I feel the rules seemed more straightforward, less complicated on Looney Tunes. The lower playfield configuration felt pretty comfortable and pretty safe for me. It does have four flippers, and I never got a good hang for shooting the upper stuff with the upper flippers. So anyway, it's a less weird layout. Spooky usually does really weird layouts. This is going to feel pretty familiar. It's still got a million flippers, though. Yeah, yeah. It's not going to feel cookie cutter. It's not going to feel like your everyday Stern, for example. It's not going to feel like a fan layout, but it is a relatively safe layout. But it looks great. It looks great. It's got all the classic stuff. It sounds good. Yeah, I mean, it was nice. I still watch Looney Tunes, man. Okay. I do not. So for me, it's just not a theme that it's one of those. It's like peanuts. Like I see Snoopy and I'm like, I have some nostalgia for Snoopy, but not like a desire to own Snoopy stuff. Does that make sense? Like I just fondly remember watching the Great Pumpkin and that's as far as it goes.
    30:40
    And there you have it. All right. Well, thanks, Patreon people. You can push stop now. We're now done with the paywall part.