#30 - DEEPROOT RAZA PRODUCTION MODEL REVEAL TONIGHT

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·18m 21s·analyzed·Nov 21, 2020

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.025

TL;DR

Deep Root Pinball to reveal Raza production model via livestream with mixed community anticipation.

Summary

Podcast host discusses Deep Root Pinball's production model reveal of Raza (Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland) scheduled for November 21-22, 2020 at What's Brewing in San Antonio, Texas. The host reflects on his prior hands-on experience with the prototype a year earlier, noting gameplay and mechanical issues, and expresses cautious optimism about fixes while maintaining low expectations due to Deep Root's history of missed deadlines. The reveal will be livestreamed on Fliptronics' Twitch channel, presenting both opportunity and risk for community reception.

Key Claims

Deep Root claims the machines being shown are final production games, not prototypes
high confidence · According to Deep Root's own Facebook page, these are final production games being displayed at What's Brewing
The right ramp is now makeable and the left return no longer drops in front of the sling but in the end lane
medium confidence · Host states 'Robert even said that on a previous podcast somewhere, that even a baby can make it' regarding the right ramp fix
The prototype played with floaty flippers, lacked flow, and had mechanical wear issues within hours of initial play
high confidence · Host's first-hand account of playing Raza at Houston Arcade Expo a year prior: 'the game just played very floaty. Flippers weren't that powerful... it just generally felt like just a long playing game with no flow whatsoever'
Raza will be made available on free play at What's Brewing with 30+ other pinball machines while people wait in line
high confidence · Host states 'raza is also going to be on free play and apparently there's 30 plus other pins there also while people wait in line'
Deep Root promised two-week shipping timelines for orders, but no ordering information is being announced with this reveal
medium confidence · Host notes 'they would have obviously said something about ordering' if machines were ready to ship, referencing prior promises of two-week delivery

Notable Quotes

“These are final production games. So final production games.”
Podcast Host @ ~3:30 — Host emphasizing Deep Root's official claim about the machines shown at the reveal being production-ready, not prototypes
“I'm not going to lie, guys, it's not my favorite... the game just played very floaty. Flippers weren't that powerful. You know shots weren really that satisfying on their own and it just generally felt like just a long playing game with no flow whatsoever.”
Podcast Host @ ~6:00 — Direct criticism of Raza prototype gameplay based on first-hand experience at Houston Arcade Expo
“My expectations are very low going into this they're very low and the reason being is just because so many deadlines have been missed and They've all been self-imposed deadlines.”
Podcast Host @ ~35:00 — Host articulating core concern about Deep Root's pattern of missed delivery promises
“You cannot control a gameplay reveal if it's live. You are at the mercy of what happens live.”
Podcast Host @ ~23:00 — Expressing concern about livestream format exposing the game to uncontrolled gameplay conditions
“Robert has been a very polarizing figure over years at a time. And just judging by how the Pennside thread is going, it could be interesting tonight, guys. It could be very interesting in that chat... get your popcorn out. It might be just a heavyweight fight in that chat.”
Podcast Host @ ~12:00 — Indicating Robert Mueller's controversial status in community and predicting contentious livestream chat
“Bowden, he is a tremendous pinball mind... What I wish would have been done with his type of talent is starting him on a game that is at scratch, at the foundation, and not him coming in trying to save a game.”
Podcast Host @ ~17:00 — Assessment of Steve Bowden's design skills while questioning his assignment to rescue a troubled project
“I'm not expecting this game to look like it shoots great on stream. Now, if Bowden gets on and plays it, I'm sure he could make it look like it shoots great.”

Entities

Deep Root Pinballcompany RazagameSteve BowdenpersonRobert Muellerperson What's BrewingeventFliptronicsorganizationGuns N' Rosesgame

Signals

?
business_signal: No ordering announcement associated with reveal despite prior promises of two-week shipping, indicating machines not ready for commercial availability
high · Host notes: 'I don't see how it's possible... they would have obviously said something about ordering... that would have been the main goal... they're not saying anything about ordering this game'
~
sentiment_shift: Significant community negativity toward Deep Root leadership (Robert Mueller) with expectation of contentious livestream chat
high · Host predicts: 'Robert has been a very polarizing figure... could be interesting... get your popcorn out. It might be just a heavyweight fight in that chat'
?
competitive_signal: Raza positioned as ambitious designer (J-Pop) game competing directly with Stern's recent Guns N' Roses flagship on sound/light/animation quality
medium · Host notes high bar: 'Guns N' Roses knocked it out of the park with sounds and lights... this is the first new pen that we can really see that we're going to judge that by that barometer'
?
design_philosophy: Game's stop-and-go mechanical flow creates challenges for code implementation and rule design, compounded by non-obvious shot geometry
medium · Host notes: 'it's a hard game to kind of wrap your mind around, not just coding standpoint, but just a rule standpoint, just because of the lack of flow... that leads to a lot of stop-and-go moments'
?
leak_detection: Reveal location and date announced via Deep Root's Facebook page, suggesting some transparency but last-minute execution

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.055

0:00

All right, welcome back guys to another episode of A Pinball Podcast. It is episode 30, November 21st, 2020. Coming back at you guys, and I have an awesome beard going on. Jeff, Marty, I know you guys are jealous right now. This is what I got. This is like Joe Dirt right here, so it's all good today. Anyhow, lots of news coming up this week. Everybody is saying how there's no news. Then it all hits instantaneously. And right now, the main thing that we're going to talk about is Deep Root Pinball for now. Hopefully, this will be a little bit shorter podcast, around 15, 20 minutes, I hope. And I'm probably saying that right now, and I'm actually stringing it out a little bit longer. Anyhow, we'll get to other news later on this week, probably on a Monday or Tuesday right before Thanksgiving. I am still working on my review for Avengers. I don't have my wire form in yet. It's been over a month. I don't know. I don't even know what to do about it. I'm probably just going to sit down and just do the review. I think that's all we can do for now. Anyhow, let's talk about the main topic at hand, and that's the Deep Root pinball reveal, I guess, tonight for Raza. I don't know what number reveal this is for now or what number attempt it is, but it's coming out, guys. It is coming out, and it's here. As of now, it's here. I mean, it hasn't been confirmed that it's at the place it's supposed to be at, but they're saying it's here. And according to Facebook, and this is Deep Root's own Facebook page, that these are not prototypes. These are final production games. So final production games. So according to Deep Root, they're going to have the arcade and extra editions of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland at What's Brewing, which is in San Antonio, Texas. That's going to be today, November 21st, on a Saturday from 6 p.m. till 10 p.m., then tomorrow from noon to 3 p.m. so what's brewing is going to host them raza is also going to be on free play and apparently there's 30 plus other pins there also while people wait in line i never heard of this place but awesome or i guess for doing this although i will say it's a very interesting time to be doing this and we'll we'll get to that here in just a few but anyhow talking about raza in general yours truly did get a chance to play it roughly a year ago now actually right at a year ago now and i got hands-on experience with it, multiple games. And, you know, there was a lot of people that were sounding the alarm about gameplay issues, about the ramp, about all that. And admittedly, I was probably one of the voices, at least on a national level. I do that in quotation marks because I don't even know what that even means for pinball. But I was one of the voices that was able to at least talk about it to where more people could listen due to Canada's Pinball podcasts from over a year ago being on it, and then also posting up on Pinside what my overall experience was on it. And we don't have to go back over that. That's just beating a dead horse at this point. But for those that haven't seen it before, let me open up a window capture real quick. Hopefully it's the right one. Okay, there we go. So this is actually a video of me. If you're on YouTube right now, you're seeing this. This is video of me actually playing Raza at the Houston Arcade Expo last year, and this was legitimately day one, probably within three or four hours of it being out on the floor. And, you know, I'm not going to lie, guys, it's not my favorite. So let's keep this in mind. Before, as this is going, keep this in mind, there's no code on it whatsoever. And of course, you guys see the famous ramp happening right there. There's no code on it to speak of or anything like that. It's very bare bones right now. And it's basically playing as a glorified whitewood. another ramp miss awesome i felt so good doing that but what i was really looking at while i was playing this game was just getting a feel for the shots getting a feel for the geometry and another ramp miss of course but you know generally speaking i found myself you know essentially finding that i wasn't having very much fun shooting it and you know that could be a mix between geometry. I think it's a lot of a mix. If you notice on the flippers, there's a lot of give right there. There's a lot of play. It was almost like the game was shot at that point, just within a few hours. There's, you know, I won't say there's major mechanical issues going on, but the game just played very floaty Flippers weren that powerful You know shots weren really that satisfying on their own and it just generally felt like just a long playing game with no flow whatsoever And that's the way it felt. And so, you know, circling back here and just kind of putting this all together, a couple of the main things that I know that have been addressed since they did have their initial reveal that they were going to have a couple of months ago, I think it might even be right at two months ago today, back in September, And one of the things that they noticed or that they stated, or I think that somebody said it at some point, that the right ramp is now makeable. I think Robert even said that on a previous podcast somewhere, that even a baby can make it. So that's good that that's been fixed. One of the other things that I did hear or that I do remember seeing from a previous photo of it also is the fact that the return to the left side, to the left flipper, no longer just drops it in front of the sling. It actually drops it in the end lane. And I think that's a big deal right there. That is a huge deal because I was having issues with that as well. Although, granted, I never had a return right there. It just didn't make sense that the return was coming there with all things being said. So hopefully these issues have been addressed. Hopefully, you know, it shoots a little bit better than what it did a year ago. I'm sure it did or it does with some of the things that they fixed. But there's a lot of other million dollar questions. There's a lot of other million-dollar questions. And before I get into those, I do know that Fliptronic from the TPN network is going to be the one streaming this. Now, I don't know anything about them, don't know them, but I'm glad somebody's at least streaming it live, I guess, so that way people can see it, which is going to happen sometime around 6 p.m. tonight on Twitch. And again, pinball streams, you guys know how I feel about that. I don't think it's the smartest thing to do. But at this point, especially after millions of dollars and years of production, it almost feels like that Deep Root is just tossing it out there. And obviously that this is seen as just things being put together last second. And so when things feel like that they're being put together last second, there's a lot of things that could go wrong. There is a lot of things that could go wrong with the stream overall. And I know I'm basically all over the place because there's so much to cover with this. So we'll just stick with the stream for now, and then I'm going to discuss, I'll come back around to some of the things that I'd like to see Deep Root address that they are most likely going to address, I hope. I hope these answers come out this weekend. But the stream in general, what I'm really worried about right now is, one, internet connection. Hopefully internet connection is good down there. I always get worried when somebody is streaming on location. It's just, you never know. You never know. On top of that, I'm worried for that chat. I really am. Robert has been a very polarizing figure over years at a time. And just judging by how the Pennside thread is going, it could be interesting tonight, guys. It could be very interesting in that chat. I mean, and I'm talking like, get your popcorn out. It might be just a heavyweight fight in that chat. And, you know, hopefully everything goes off well. Hopefully there's no major issues, but who knows. So I would look for that to be kind of the main thing. My main worry is just how is their communication going to come off? If people aren't able to answer questions, if nobody's able to answer questions readily in the chat, it's going to be interesting. Let's just put it that way. That's all I can say. I know I keep repeating myself, but that's the way it feels at this point. It feels like Groundhog Day all over again, but they're going in. And obviously this is kind of put together last second. I don't know if putting on location, you know, debuting it this way, if that's last second, obviously showing a debut stream is very last second. Otherwise they would have talked about that from the get-go. They would have hyped this up a lot more. So, you know, just putting it together last second after all these years, after promising the five days of deep root, after all the claims, just everything. I don't know. It's an odd way to roll it out, but I guess at least it's being rolled out. Now, obviously, I don't think these things are on the line right now. People have been wondering that. I don't see how it's possible. And the other reason why I don't think that they are, because they would have obviously said something about ordering I would have thought that would have been the main goal of showing it off was to say hey these are here put in your order today But again it been promised over years now it been promised that if you order one of these games they be able to ship it within two weeks. So obviously, I don't think that's in the cards right now, which is probably why they're not saying anything about ordering this game. And again, it's very interesting that it's getting this much attention on a national level now since they are going to show it on the internet live and how that's going to correspond to whether people are accepting of this game or not so rolling it back around to issues with the game that i hope has been addressed and i hope is fixing things that might happen sorry guys had to take a sip of green tea i'm losing my voice here Anyhow, all right, several issues. Let's just address these.

10:06

Obviously, we just talked about the ramp, and we talked about the return. I know that those are fixed up. I'm curious to see, from a coding standpoint now, where Bowden is at with this. Now, Bowden, he is a tremendous pinball mind, and I've said this many times, that I think he's an asset to Deep Root. What I wish would have been done with his type of talent is starting him on a game that is at scratch, at the foundation, and not him coming in trying to save a game. That's the only thing. And this game, it looks like a hard game to kind of wrap your mind around, not just coding standpoint, but just a rule standpoint, just because of the lack of flow and everything. To me, that leads to a lot of stop-and-go moments that you really have to think about coding into a game. And I'm curious to see how that plays out. So I'll be looking out for that. Another thing that I'm curious of is how will this play field look? It has been promised the hammer test. That's been hammered in at us, the hammer test. Now, that won't be shown tonight. I don't think they're going to have an actual hammer showing that, although that would be badass. That would be badass if you guys did that in front of everybody, but I don't think that's going to happen. I am curious to see, though, how these play fields look. I'm very curious based on what has been going on in the pinball industry, especially with guns and roses. That's the hot topic right now. How are these play fields coming out? And it's been stated by Robert numerous times that this is going to be different. I think it was like a 10 year play field wear and tear warranty that he was talking about that, you know, and all that, all that. So I'm curious to see how is that going to be? How are these play fields going to look? Is there going to be dimpling? Hopefully there's no dimpling. So my expectation, based on what we've been told, is that this play field is going to be the play field. It's going to be the best of the best. That's going to be telling. I'm very curious to see, people that are down there, what the reports are that come out. What are the pictures coming out? What is the actual wear and tear? Do they see any wear and tear? Another thing that I'm very curious of, because I did run into this when I played the prototype, And again, it's a prototype. So, you know, take this for what it is because it's a prototype. You know, have they addressed the issues of flipper wear and tear? Have they addressed the issues of just these little mechanical wear and tears to where the machine actually feels like a well-oiled machine? It actually feels like what what a pinball machine should feel like while you're playing it. You know what I mean? Like it just it doesn't feel cheap or anything like that. Now, I'm not saying that the prototype at Houston felt cheap, but it was worrisome that I had that much play in the flippers just within a couple hours of other people playing it. That is very worrisome. So hopefully that has been addressed. I assume it is. You know, the other thing that I'm very worried about for this game, and this is a live stream thing, again, this is a live stream thing, and they are playing with fire with this one. Again, we've talked about this before. You cannot control a gameplay reveal if it's live. You are at the mercy of what happens live. And right now, they're going to be in a situation in which this is going to be at a bar or a brewery. It's going to be played by a bunch of random people that, outside of Bowdoin, we not going to see world pinball play tonight So you guys buckle up If you planning on watching this buckle up That what we going to see So it going to be very telling I thought when I played this game this is before all the code this is before everything This is just a prototype. I thought it played clunky.