The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. a little distraught, like most people in the world. What's wrong with you? You don't have human blood? You're not scarred by what's happened? Okay. I'm over the other side of the world. What's happened over there that's got you so rattled? Hello, Kim and Kanye are calling it quits. Nobody saw this happen. And you want me to do a podcast? I am just, my head isn't into it right now. I understand. I get what you mean now. Yeah. The poor girl. Do you know how hard it is for single moms out there? She's got several kids. Anyway, let's just, I will plow through this episode. You might notice I'm a little grumpy. It's rare, by the way. But one thing that always cheers me up, certainly when I see him, in this case, we'll just have to talk to him and that'll be enough. Our good friend of this show, a two-time guest. He's been on this show before, actually a few times. Once he was on a couple weeks ago accepting a reach around. We have a reach-around winner, Marty. So we love this guy. As we've said, this is Steven Bowden. How are you, Stephen? I'm well, and I was trying not to laugh during the intro. I almost ruined it. Why would you laugh about Kim and Kanye? It's a serious matter. It's not funny. Yes, it's very serious. It's serious journalism. Thank you. Yes, it's serious. Actually, okay. I guess there is another news story that might be bigger news, and it's actually where you are right now, Stephen, and in all seriousness, extremely concerned about people probably a little more north of you, but still the state of Texas and snowstorm and the power outage and everything that's gone on there. So tell me what it's been like. Oh, I am grateful that my power is back and my water is safe. We did lose power in our area for a couple days, so that did hit us. The snow did give us a good visit, and so we took it. And, yeah, the rolling blackouts stopped rolling, and it became long-time blackouts. And then it came back on, at least in our area, and then, you know, we just kept it moving. I mean, I was hearing stories about pipes being burst because I was learning about, you know, what a snowstorm in this area means. So, you know, getting educated about making sure your pipes are dripping, so making sure that your water pipes don't burst and all that. And so that was a bit of a quick education. So I'm grateful to be talking to you two right now. So this will be fun. A nice casual conversation, I guess, right? Yes. Yeah, let's not focus on the serious life-threatening stuff. No, no. I just find it weird from the other side of the world imagining Texas being cold. I always just think it's hot all year round. Right, and it happened. Yeah, it's amazing. Teens happened and snow happened. And then today it was 60 and the snow is gone. OK. You know, Martin, Stephen moved from New Jersey to San Antonio, Texas, for the whole reason of avoiding winter. Oh, yeah. And I guess maybe to work for Deep Root. Yeah, that too. But also no shoveling. Don't want to shovel snow. And then that happened. This is not in the plan. This is not good. You know, it didn't have to shovel anyway, because as soon as the sun came out, it was like a self shovel. It was over. Oh, okay, I don't have to get up. No wonder nobody's cleaning off their cars. The snow just disappears, right? Okay, sure, that's different. So I'm assuming then you're still happy with the move that you made. Yes, I'm still very pleased with the move that I've made and definitely will continue to enjoy my life in lovely San Antonio, Texas. So what's San Antonio known for? I just don't know the place. What would you say, if you're going to go to San Antonio, you've got to do this or see this? Oh, well, the river walk is required. So that's the designated congregation-type shopping riverside area where everyone gathers and does festivals and all that. So that's required. You also have to avoid getting fat off of every food. That's important. You know, be disciplined because, you know, anything you want, you got Tex-Mex, barbecue, whatever, you know. Of course, the Whataburger, the national. Yes. Yeah. The state fast food restaurant of San Antonio slash probably all of Texas, the Whataburger. So you got to be careful with that. Again, remain disciplined. Moderation is the key. tell carl d'Python Anghelo that that jerk on ie pinball put up a uh he put up a poll what's better what a burger or in and out and i'm like steven get online quick vote see that's the thing it's it's weird it's like the waterberg to me the water burger special burgers are better than in and out but then like in and out covers that whole middle and then at the bottom like the water burger regular burgers so it's like a split it's not it's not complete domination for me it's more like if you drew the curve at the beginning the low end would be like the water burger regular ones and then at the far high end would be the water burger special burgers and all in the middle would be all the in and out stuff so it's uh it's not domination it's more like a high and low versus a middle to me okay five guys for me just saying true okay respect the five guys i'm gonna have to go to i'm gonna have to go to water burger in a minute And one thing, though, I was wondering whether Whataburger was open during this Carl Weathers event. I noticed when I took a little walk out around my neighborhood, the Taco Bell was open. Subway wasn't. Their power was out. The Taco Bell found a way to get their power on. And guess what? The cars were in the highway, almost blocking traffic, trying to get to the Taco Bell. So something happened there where they were able to keep their power on. I don't know. Well, according to Google Maps, Whataburger in San Antonio is open right now. time it is oh i'm aware and you're doing a podcast big mistake steven first big mistake you should be there right now i might be there after this is over i don't know decisions will have to be made i'm telling you okay so i've been noticing on fun with bonus on not only the social media but also your website and all these good things we're seeing a lot more story modes and the things that you've been doing at deep root mainly for the first game that's going to be coming out in Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. And it looks pretty amazing. I love the comic book art. I think Quinn is just brilliant. And obviously everybody we're seeing as the staff is kind of becoming more and more known. A lot of attention to Raza. And I'm excited. I've got my order. And I also got the letter explaining, you know, like most people and actually most pinball companies, there are going to be delays. I've got you on the phone right now. We're here on the podcast. Is there anything you can tell us? Any kind of progress? Maybe you can say things. maybe you can't say things but i thought i would ask um you can ask but i don't know so you know my my title is rules designer not whatever that is on that note so you know i i know i know what obama is by osmosis you know just by common sense so that's kind of where where i am as far as this i you know when i read it you know i know what ul is because i look on the back of electronics and I know that that thing helps me not get electrocuted when it's on a product. And that's as far as I know. So as far as that, I release stuff on my site because it's what I'm involved in. It's the reason why I stopped doing the site every day is because I wanted to change it over. And so I noticed that I was slacking off on that. And I said, well, I've got to do what I said I wanted to do is the reason why I had to stop the streak. So let me do what I wanted to do and start posting stuff on Raza on the site. So that's kind of what's going to happen is I wanted to make it sort of a repository for the rules as the games come out. So it's sort of a perspective of already have the rules written. And then as if I came in and looked at myself again from outside and now trying to describe this simpler to another person so that someone else can come on and go to the site later and search for it and get all the information on it in one shot. So that's where you see it separated into sections like that. So describe and it's not over. I still have to do, I mean, I could actually, I mean, we're on the phone. So I have a post scheduled for tomorrow. I mean, is it okay to say the day we're recording? We record on Saturday, yes. Okay. So I have a post, like, tomorrow scheduled about the Snack Shop Targets. So I can actually release that now, and you can look at it if you want. So you can see the next description that describes what those Snack Shop Targets do and how you get a play field X. It's up to you if you want to do it. But so, yeah, you know what? I'm going to do that now. I'm going to change it because it was scheduled for 8 a.m. tomorrow. And now it is going to be. There are two fun with bonus groups. Which one do we look at? Once the page, the page is just is an automatic mirror of the website. And so that's how that works. And then the group is stuff that I find when I really want to post stuff really quickly. So I'll go to the group first and then it'll probably go to the page later. OK, so that's kind of how that works. Yeah, it's funny. I kind of noticed a bit of a pattern in that one of them, and again, I don't know which one, is it's almost like just an instant you're sharing something, whereas... That's the group, yeah. Yeah, and so the other page is when you've actually consumed something. So if you've listened to a podcast, that's when it gets shared. You got it. That's amazing that you understood that. Yeah, because I've only said that, I think, someone once that when they noticed that, Like, for example, I'm not posting as many podcasts as I used to. You son of a bitch. I haven't been able to listen to them. How dare you. Right? So that's kind of the rule. That was always when I knew you'd listen to Head to Head because as soon as that post comes up, I go, he knows. Right. So it's like that's what happens. I haven't been able to listen to that content as much. So even though it will go on the Facebook group because I saw it, it won't go on the .com because I haven't actually consumed the content myself. So that's like the little mini rule, the little like, I guess, yeah, you figured it out. This little mini rule that I have for myself that if I don't consume it personally, it doesn't go on the dot com. OK, so what if you hear it and you've already posted it on the group and it sucks? Do you go back and delete it? No, no, no. All right. We're still good, Marty. You know, it's pinball related. So, yeah, I heard it is pinball related. And so it goes up there. There it is. Okay, so now if you look on there now, it'll say we have the Dizzy Doozy and Super Doozy, and then we have the Snack Shop Targets. So that's the latest one. The page or the group? Not the page. The dot com. The dot com. Yeah, that's where the posts go up first. And it'll get mirrored to the page probably in the next few minutes. Then it goes to the dot com first. This is the snack? Yeah, the Snack Shop Targets. Yep. Okay. So we're seeing for this for the first time. Oh, I already love it, Marty. The Playfield Multipliers. Mmm. And so these, you know, I know that playfield multipliers are, you know, some are sometimes they're controversial. Some people love, some people hate. I love them if they're earned. So there's ways to earn them. And you'll read about that there. You'll see the the multiplier targets that you remember from Houston, Jeff, that you were able to hit by hitting shots off the ramp. Like if you would miss the ramp and if it wouldn't make it, you would deflect it and it would go off the playfield X targets. And then you'd activate it and then you just start destroying the game. Well, now since the ramp's so easy, I have to find another way for people to get those targets activated. So that has been remedied. So that had to become an update in the rules because of the fact that the difficulty of the ramp is so low now. I mean, you can basically combo it now. I've got to ask Marty about something. You, when you play a game, don't read rules first. So I don't even know if you're reading this right now. You just like to get a feel for the game, feel for the shots. Correct. And you like to actually go through all the different modes, too. and we've talked about it before with that Guardians example, you know, when people were telling you, do this, do this, and you're like, no, I want to do this because I want to do this and I want to try everything. So will you read this kind of stuff? No. Before or after? And once you do read it, let's say after you played the game, are play field multipliers something that you're like, okay, I got to go for that. It's the only way to kind of achieve such and such. Okay. So the answer is no, I probably won't because you're absolutely right. when I play a game, I don't want to know the rules because I want to know how I want to play the game, how I want to enjoy the game, as opposed to somebody telling me how I should be enjoying the game to get a high score. Because a high score is a nice byproduct, but if I'm having fun, I will therefore be playing the game better, I will therefore be keeping the ball alive more, and hopefully I will do some right things and get a high score as a result. The second part to that is about playfield multipliers. I like playfield multipliers. I don't like shot multipliers. So this sounds like it's going to be good for me. Very good. This is feedback I like. More than like. I love this feedback. This is good. So one thing I wanted to address to you, Marty, is that in you just playing the game and not knowing how to get the playfield multipliers that won't matter because you'll get them anyway yep that's good i like that you will get them because you know there are other ways to get them other than just the target they're easy slash hard to get then the way they are situated if you've seen the playfield the three six and nine targets that snack shop is not directly hittable by a flipper it's not a direct shot it's like a deflection yep okay off of ned off of ned or i've seen a couple of players at work purposely deflected off the right rubber of the atomic shop i looked at him i said that is smart i'll say okay that was a smart shot dangerous as heck but that was pretty smart with which flipper the right flipper the right flipper off of the right rubber of the of the atomic shop You know what that reminds me of? That reminds me of when I watch people on the left flipper of The Walking Dead hit the Well Walker into Riot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Geometry. And I was like, wait a minute. That was awesome. I got to try it. And of course, it's dangerous because if you do it wrong, it's, hello, stay down the middle. Stay down the middle. But it's, I mean, but yes. So the way it's written is that, yeah, you can, you'll hit those targets and if you hit them enough you'll get a play flex and you have it for a limited amount of time so once you have it you gotta get stuff done so it's not like you you have to get some stuff done hopefully you have something lined up or it's sort of like this i wanted to sort of write it so that you make big plays so like domino boom i got it you know i set this up and then i here's this multiplier and boom this shot but if i miss it i missed it it's gone so big comeback plays and things like that are possible. One thing that I make sure and try to do is when I'm playing multiple player games against myself is I put up a big score and then see, okay, how can I come back from this? Can I come back from this 150,000 point lead, which doesn't seem like a lot, but in Raza, it's a lot. Okay. How do I come back from 150,000 points down? Can I still do it and then figure out a way to do it? And sometimes it involves a play feel like sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it involves the modes and other things which i'll get into in other sections of the rule some of it's already written but about modes and and uh bonus collects which i had to have because it's in the name of my site so i had to do a bonus thing for my first rule set it would have been almost illegal or immoral if i didn't so there is a way to collect your bonus and that bonus can be multiplied so you know just a lot of the things about this game is that it's simple complicated you know it's like very simple on the surface but then like right below the surface is this layer of meta sitting there that you might not care about at all until you see it and it's like oh wait a minute can i do this yeah i'll allow it yeah you can do that oh can i do that too yeah i'll allow it you can do that too just don't die don't remember not to drain because you're going to lose it all if you don't do it so this rule that you've implemented now has that always been in in the plan you're just revealing it now or is this something that's happened later in your code development cycle no this has been in it okay this particular one yeah this particular one has been in it so i've been gauging you know balance and things like that based off of this thing so there are other ways to light this too so it's not just bashing on the targets like if you see at the bottom you'll see i there's another way to do it that i tease out and so if you know where those come from then you know where they'll come from. But they'll be revealed in a later quick shot along with all the other ones. So there's a way to just go straight to the 9X, but it's going to cost you. It's going to cost you. The reason why I was asking that is because I'm kind of curious to know the development cycle that you have for code, whether from the outset when you go, right, you've got Retro Atomic Zombie at Adventureland, you're doing the rules. What's your first approach? Do you think, how am I going to tell the story? How am I going to do rules framework? or are you thinking scoring opportunities? Well, if I can imagine, like, once I get, like, for Raza, I mean, I saw the play field for a while, so I'm looking at it, and I'm like, okay, what does this play field give me? It gives me a lot of fun things. How can I exploit this play field in a way that follows the designer's intentions and then also makes it fun for me when I'm stepping up to play it all the time, but then also let's not make it so complicated that it's esoteric And then can I do a Bally Williams plus a little more? Like, can I do that with this? How can I best? And then I start going into, OK, straight up points. OK, how many points is this slingshot? Like, you know, down to the bare minimum, I got to, of course, map it out. So like, yes, a slingshot is Raza is one point for a while. And then it can be more for some reason. And then it just becomes me answering the question. And then what? And then what happens? Do you ever reverse engineer any kind of games that are pre-existing right now, whether it's from another company, and see kind of where they broke down the code? I mean, well, not the code themselves, but maybe just like what I, because of course I can't see the code. Sorry, I meant the rules. The rules, yeah, okay, yeah, the rules themselves, yeah. I mean, because one thing about what I'm what I talk about is that I'm going to put out the obvious, like looking at Raza. Right. When I saw it, I'm like, OK, this game is you can call it the child of Tales of the Arabian Nights and the sibling of World Cup soccer. So I'm like, well, OK, if you're going to give me World Cup soccer on steroids, I'm going to give you World Cup soccer on steroids. Let's see what we can do here. And then so let's start with that as a baseline. And then how can we make this a lot different using that base, keeping that familiarity, keeping that Valley Williams type familiarity from a previous J-pop game? In this case, World Cup. How can I make that even more awesome? At least in my perspective, I hope it is. I'm biased, of course. So there's my baseline. So, OK, there's my elevator pitch. World Cup soccer on steroids. OK, so now how can I continue to make this work and then add some special things in and then use the pin bar and add, you know, we have in the shopping mechanic and then how does that affect it? And all of a sudden becomes a drastically different game. So it's not like I'm worried about repeating things or being too barring from too many things that makes it similar, because I mean, one thing with the different designers, I can't be samey. You know, it's kind of impossible. so even if i wanted to i really couldn't but you know in rosa's case using that framework and then going forward with that and say okay now that i have this let's map the entire thing out like a master's thesis like a doctoral thesis of how i want the game to work out and then it becomes all right here's how the perfect player plays it okay now what happens when it's not the perfect player what does the player do now when this happens can the player come back from this how balance is this how does the point scale up can i use a point scale as a baseline and then go back from that so it doesn't get all crazy remembering with raza i only have a limited number of digits but we don't have to worry about turning over the game doesn't matter it keeps counting but i want to be reasonable this is not like a this is not a billionaire game it's not even a tens of millionaire game it's a hundred thousand air game really a game of a hundred thousand is significant on this. So having that difference, I'm like, okay, now go. And then it just becomes a lot of me thinking and overthinking and overthinking some more and 2.30 in the morning and overthinking. And is this balanced? And then checking the logic. Did I break the logic with this rule? Did this new rule break something before? If I broke it, I got to go back and fix it. Sometimes I'll go and reread a rule set that I have and I'll be reading it and say, man i hope you covered for yourself there and i read it okay i did thank you okay all right things like that and then it becomes okay a slingshot is one point and then a spinner is three points and then like that you know it starts to get up to that point a mode is this this is how i want the most to progress hopefully you know put put in a different idea how can i put in this different idea and then keep everything balanced enough until we get to a mode where i don't want it to be balanced So that's part of the balancing act with this game is because I wanted this game to be sort of like a big play games. Like I did this and I did this and I did this and I have this set up for a game breaker shot and I made it. Yes. And then when I do it, then gameplay Steve is like, yeah, that was awesome. And then rules maker Steve taps gameplay Steve on the shoulder and says, hey, was that balanced? And then we have a debate. We meaning me and me have a debate and saying, OK, is that good? you know game players say shut up shut up that was good that was awesome right was it fun good okay good big check marks taken off there but is it exploitable is it balanced you know so depending on who wins then we move on to the next the next test of the next rule and so I do have to have a split personality on this stuff this is this is so much you have to have in your head just for this game I'm making an assumption that Razz is not the only game that you would be working on Oh no Right now When you said there so much that I have to have in my head for this game it makes this game seem very complicated But it isn And I mean that one of the things that I that I kind of fear i guess fear is a strong word but say i fear that this game is going to be seen as me being simple and also nuts you know it's like you know it's a very simple game but it's also very not so that's what i'm hoping i'm hoping that the simplicity will get people in and to do the easy thing until they get to the part where they look right below the surface and they get to the scoring part and it's like oh oh, I could have done this. It's like, yeah, you could have done this. Did you try it? No, try it next time. It's easy to get to. Just try it next time. It's like, oh, I could have done this and this. Yeah, but did you shoot the ramp first? Oh, crap, I forgot to shoot the ramp. Right, you could have doubled that. Oh, okay. You know, things like that, that are all, I guess, what's the phrase, close to the start button? Yep. You know, it's all on the surface. It's not a deep game. It's a wide game. That's what I kind of see. I don't know if that's really true, but it's wide. With this game and with the next games that are coming out, how much time is going to be spent on the actual pin bar? You mean as far as like interaction and graphics and all that lot? You mean as far as animations and things? Yeah. Like quick decisions. Oh, you mean the player? Oh, the player themselves? Oh, not really. Like Raza, as far as the shot mechanic is a thing, but it's not like a quick decision there. like i'm giving you enough time to look at it and say hmm because i want that moment where the player has a certain number of tickets and then they have like three or four choices and they're like they step back and go wait a minute now i got you that's the one word i want when you step back and you look at it because i've seen it happen when people are playing and they go oh i could do this or this meanwhile the time clock's ticking get ticking down and that's when i know i got you that's what i'm looking for that strategy a little mini strategy session in your head where it's like what if i do this and this now some people just don't care and they'll just buy everything that you can afford that's fine you know but that's the kind of thing i'm looking for so not all games will have that level of interactivity some will have more some will have less i mean raza also has the magna save which is just a quick button press so that's not even i guess that sort of counts right it's easy it's really right from your thumb on your right hand just hit it boom done And it operates like, you know, you can tap it to fling it like Jungle Lord, like the old style ones. Or was it Solar Fire? I think, you know, you can fling it and it flings out or you can hold it to grab it. But you have an energy meter. So you if you use it all, it's gone. You can get it back. But, you know, there are other games that will have that sort of button on the right where your right thumb would be to have that sort of interactivity there. and also an additional activity with the pin bar itself. Of course, with the standard ones, with the shot log and the settings, those are standard things. And the what's next that you might have seen, like, this is what's next. I have no idea what to do. Here's what's next. Just shoot this thing. Okay. So the finite number of Raza games have been sold and the finite number of how many are going to be made. So I assume a lot of your time is working on games 2, 3, 4, 5 right now, which we've seen the titles on the Deep Root website. I'm not sure if we know what the actual next game is going to be or when it's going to be. Has that been announced? I believe Food Truck has been announced. I think Robert officially announced that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said Food Truck was next. Yeah, I think that makes the most sense for him to announce that, I guess. It's Barry's game. So I'm very privileged to be working on Barry's game. I mean, I just thought that my very first game of pinball was, I'm highly confident it was Space Shuttle. It was either Space Shuttle or Space Station. And I think it was Space Shuttle in the way the lights are, the way you look at the lights and play field, the way my little six, seven-year-old self, Herb, while I was playing it, remembers that. So, and just to think that, you know, I'm going to be working with Barry on his game. That's kind of a moment that sometimes I'll be working there and I'll be in a meeting and there's Barry there and we're talking about Food Truck and I'm like, really? This is happening. And so I got to have a space shuttle in the game somewhere. So we're going to figure that out. I don't know. I just had a chance. Can I talk about Food Truck then? Because when it was announced, it sort of really had mixed, I guess, impressions from people. People going, Food Truck, I don't quite get it. But then other people saying, well, hang on, don't forget Diner. Diner was sort of that sort of food-based as well. My question to you, whether you can answer it or not, is what about Food Truck in your mind is going to make it really exciting for us? quick fast man we want a burger served on the side yes burgers will be served and you will be serving them that is correct people will be asking for burgers with toppings and you better be serving them quickly or else they will not give you good ratings then that will affect your score and quick quick quick like a bunny get that multiball started get those orders done defeat the roach the roach is the designated bad guy in the game so you have to beat him as well so it will be exciting because it's supposed to be quick you got to serve those orders or they will it will affect your performance but now for the people who will not care about scores it's fine because you're just trying to serve food still so it's still the same concept the faster you serve the food the better you will score so um hold the ball at your peril i guess i mean there'll be coverage for stuck balls of course i mean you know stuck balls stop timers you know that's that's like one of the things you think of when i'm first looking at okay what do i have to worry about okay what i have to worry about in a game that operates quick like this well what happens when the ball gets stuck okay cover that okay we got to make sure we put in the timer stop it stuff okay okay but then how does that affect everything does that affect the timer well you know but now i'm getting into meta stuff which you're not asking about but now we're getting into it's a me being overthinking about this stuff i'm sorry but that's kind of one of the things that goes into it but yeah it's quick serving food serve the customers get the high ratings you know and then start the multi balls stack the multi balls defeat the roach you know destroy him make him make him suffer for talking crap about your food truck and hopefully it will be uh fun and exciting and give you that one more game sort of feel that uh some games have some of my favorite games where it's like yes the gameplay loop itself is kind of simple but then it's like okay i gotta do it again because i can do it just a little bit better so steven we've seen a lot of the feedback since september when all these titles were announced you came on with quinn and robert on pinball profile and robert was on with Pinball News and Pinball Magazine, and there was the Deep Dive as well in TWIP. What has the feedback been like for you? I know you like constructive criticism, and I'm sure Robert does as well. Can you tell us, you know, what kind of discussions have happened at Deep Root from when you've heard back from possible pinball consumers? Wish we could have seen more gameplay, right? I would have liked to have given them that. I guess I remember hearing that, But, you know, we only we only really had like the one video. Right. Was a couple of videos running like that. It was kind of a burn out. But there was the flip tronic. There was obviously the produce stuff as well from Deep Root. Mm hmm. So and that was OK. I mean, I guess it's sort of that balance of you have a long stream and long streams are boring, but then they're not. Some people don't like them. Some people like them. You know, three hour stream or one hour. I don't know. But I mean, with Food Truck, who knows? Maybe one day you might just all of a sudden see me, Quinn and two of our other developers standing there with a four player game. And here we go. I mean, I don't know. That's how I come up with a line to do it. Just be like, just say absolutely nothing. And then be like, hey, guess what? This is not like an episode of an MTV show to just come on with a cold open. And it's like, here we go. It's Food Truck. Let's do it. One, two, three, four, four players. Boom. when they were off. Does it frustrate you that I think a lot of the time you might feel that you can never win? Or have you just been sort of in the media and just also in pinball long enough to just accept it and not really get fazed by it? The latter is correct, Marty. Because you can never win, because that's not like it's a bad pessimistic thing. That's a fact. It's like the whole you can't please everybody thing. That is a fact. That's not something to dwell on. Marty, before the name Final Round came up, we had another name. Yeah, it was Zero Fucks Given. There you go. See, I could have worn my t-shirt. And it was mainly that because with the podcast and with our general interaction, we understand that everybody has got such varying opinions and varying levels of conviction to those opinions that it's almost like we were preserving ourselves from the outset by saying, we're not going to care. We're just going to just keep plowing through no matter what and have fun our way. That's the important part. Yeah, it is having fun your way. Well, we're still trying to get there. Yeah, hopefully your way, you know, it pleases a lot of people and maybe it doesn't. I mean, the other side works too. Your hate listeners are good too. Awesome. Right? But, hey, that's what I'm going to try to do is like as we get to each game, you know, Hope each game is fun and hope it does what I want it to do, which it does. And, you know, just hope that people like it and will like it enough to buy it. And I mean, it seems kind of hokey or whatever, but that's really what I'm feeling. I was like, as we get to this game, I just can't wait to get to each game. But it's like, OK, I have these new ideas that I want to try and see if they work. They seem like they're working. OK, let's I hope everyone else likes it. And please tell me what you don't like as well. so that we get that part over it, so that there's not a lot of over-positivity. Just, yeah, I want to know what's good and bad so that I can learn. That doesn't mean I'm going to really change anything for it, but it might. It might affect game number six or five or an update or something. So I'm not trying to rule like a, I guess, overlord. Well, okay. You said it. No, no. You said that. You agreed. I mean, you were quick to agree there, let's be honest. And I say his name because of this. You should have at least $1,000 in your pocket and should have had that money collecting interest for over a year. What am I talking about? The Stern Pro Circuit. Steven Bowden was the number one person on the Stern Pro Circuit. It should have happened last March. It didn't happen, obviously, because of COVID. No question about that. But this whole time, Josh Sharpe has kept all of that money for the 20 players and collected interest and probably bought GameStop stock or something stupid. I could have had some of that. Yes. Oh, man. I'm telling you, he's rolling in it, and you are sitting there going, I'm just trying to have some fucking power here in Texas and make sure my pipes don't freeze, and you're holding on to my money? Where's my money, man? Exactly. I earned that ranking, sort of. It's a lot of travel to get that ranking, no matter what. Even if I bombed out in the first round, I wouldn't care. And I was like, okay, how much is fourth place? Oh, a grand? All right. Looking good. Looking good. But yeah, I wonder if we're going to be able to do that. Has it affected you not being able to play or just because you still get to code, you still get your pinball fix? Yeah, I get my pinball fix. Yeah, believe me on at Monday morning, like today, Saturday, Monday morning at 730 a.m. My butt will be behind the game. It will probably be Raza, probably, because I know I'm biased, but I can just keep playing that game. I know it doesn't mean much coming from me because it's doing what I wanted to do. But, yeah, I want to play Raza again. Thank you, please. I want to try something to see if I can get it to work on the strategy and make it work. Or sometimes I just want to bash on Ned over and over and make him say mean things to me so I can talk crap to him. But as far as like, you know, playing pinball in general, yeah, it's, you know, it's a bit of a bit of a slowdown as far as, you know, playing other games. But, you know, I try. I know at least I can get some some play at work, which is like an awesome thing to even be able to say. Like, I'm very grateful to be able to say that sentence. Oh, he says that now, Marty. But, you know, once these games come out, you are going to be open for criticism, as you know. And that could include being on a future final round episode. Oh, I don't know, like one next episode where we do our most overrated games. Oh, yeah. Steven, we've got a few that listeners have come in. I mean, Marty gave his list. I gave my list. We had Zach Many give his list. I don't want you to certainly give your list, but maybe some comments on some of the ones that our listeners have given us. Okay. So let me just pull out a couple that have stood out. These are the overrated, right? that some of these are definitely going to hurt because I know I've got... I know some of my favorite games are probably overrated. Well, this is the whole thing. Jeff and I, when we were discussing this, we were like, oh, we don't really want to offend people and say the machines they love are crap. That's why we put it out to the public so they could be the voice. So they could say it. They could say it. Dodge the bullet. But this is the point of it. It's not that it's necessarily a good or a bad game. It's probably either A, rated higher than people give it credit or it goes for more money than it should. The case in point, everyone, few people have sort of mentioned Big Bang Bar because in Australia it still goes for $30,000. I know it still goes for a lot of money. It's probably not worth that if you look at the game on paper, but the collectability probably makes it worth that. Which I can understand why Big Bang Bar makes that okay. Makes the overrated list, you mean? No, I understand. Yeah. So we'll go some common ones, close to the bone somewhat maybe. Tales of the Arabian Nights has come up a few times. Not for me. That's fine with me. I love that game. No, see, but that's lamp all day. I mean, I'm going to go on the rule stuff. That's my problem. How do you play Tales of the Arabian Nights? You spin the lamp, you get the lightning lamp, then you make a wish and get the triple lightning lamp, and then you shoot the lamp until you die and the game over. So you're saying overrated based on the rules. I had to make sure I avoided that for the Dizzy Doozey. That's why the Dizzy Doozey says, this ain't no magic lamp. Because once I saw that, I'm like, look, okay, Dizzy Doozey, I see you. You are not going to be the magic lamp in my rules. So I point at you. So, you know, you are going to behave yourself and you are not going to take over the game like the lamp does on Toten. So I wrote that down really early when I came in to the company. I was like, no. All right. So that's a very good first shot there. Yes. Tails is very fun, but I can understand why. I mean, I guess people love the art on it, I guess, right? Is that why? Or is it? I don't know. It still goes for a lot of money. So that could be because of its rarity. Okay. And that's what makes it overrated, perhaps. Yeah. So that's the part I don't get, because I'm not altogether hip on how rare a game is a lot of times. I didn't think Tales was that rare, but I guess it is. Yeah, I probably should look up the numbers, but off the top of my head, I don't think it was sold in huge numbers at the time. But here's the thing. The game is over 25 years old, so the fact that they are either not well kept or there are few in circulation, certainly it's not like buying a new-in-box game. So maybe it's got a new play field or whatever, new plastics, all that kind of stuff. So it's a collector's edition because they're not currently making it. That's why these games are going for so much money. And maybe we feel that some of them are overrated because, you know, when you look at the games and you look at the rules, is there really a lot there compared to what's out there now? And speaking of the rules, I mean, just referring to Toten as far as like an export like that, you know, I can't wait for someone to find the export in Raza because it's there. I just don't know about it yet because I'm not perfect. so i'm looking forward to seeing that it will be found it will be a post on facebook here it is and i'll be like yep i screwed that up or whatever yeah patch it immediately but there will be some where it'll be like no i'm keeping that that was on purpose right so you know like there will be a game that there will be there is at least a game where i have written it down like on the rule set this is exploitable on purpose if they find it congratulations like it's what i've written like like the like the player this is there's this mystical the player like in all my rule sets there's this person called the player is his name kaylee now it's the player capital t capital p like the player will and the player can like it's it's this proper noun god player like the customer that's what i'm sort of referring to them and so it's always be you know i guess i guess at some point at some export whenever when i finally be able to show a rule set as you know as it was written that we always use references to this the player so when the player is able to get to this and they do this yes you will have this type of access for this amount of seconds this is on purpose because it's very hard to do so so it'll be one of those things where it's like yeah it's the next point yeah it's on purpose do it again congrats i can't wait for people to find it i know and and i know there's ones that are unintended that they will find on mine so you know hopefully not things like keep shooting the left orbit on theater of magic right yeah it's like that which is why the atomic two ball is there you know some of these like as far as raza the atomic two ball is there in honor of the left orbit strategy on theater of magic that's why it's there because i was like nah we're not going to do this theater letter stuff so you know i'm gonna you can shoot the left orbit but i see what you're doing so here take this other ball. Now let's change the game. So, things like that. I deflect it, but this is kind of how I ramble. So, just confirm it. So, yeah, Taz the Baby Knights, just over 3,000 units were sold. So, that's not a lot for a 1996 title. Okay. So, anyway, so that's probably a good reference. That'll work. Okay. So, let's move to another one. Another one that's probably been mentioned the most is Ghostbusters. Mmm. I know how Steven feels about that game. Mmm. I love everything about the game except playing it. That's, you know, like everything else. I think Jockton's pin shades were created once Ghostbusters was made. Glorious pin shades. Beautiful, glorious pin shades. I mean, I mean, I have fun with the game. I have fun with the game now. But I mean, when the game was out, I was just like, man, I like everything about this game except actually playing it. And I think it was because the center was eating all the balls and then the side rails for the inlanes were not even inlanes. It was like bounce overs all day. And but, you know, as far as like, I mean, now that I'm having more fun with the game, I'm like, OK, fine. But I'm still but that's because I'm hitting more of my shots on it now. So it's like, oh, and that came. OK, hit shots. You won't get penalized. Yeah. But when a ball's heading down the middle and you got to basically move the game half a football field to save it, because it's going down the middle. I once held a Pinball Profile World Tour event. No, not Australia, Marty, so shut up. No one said? I can't talk about that one. Anyway. Okay. That's the rule. IFPA's got all the details. Anyway, the point is I went to a different Pinball Profile World Tour event, and they had all these games. And I said, okay, we're going to play all these games except Ghostbusters. The guy goes, why? I go, because it's my tour. I'm not fucking playing. Wow. there's some games i'm just like i'm not gonna have fun playing that forget it oh bloody and i'm thinking of other people too yeah you're just thinking of their sanity i guess right you're thinking of their safety and their their well-being in these troubling times i guess no but rightly so because it is frustrating the thing with ghostbusters i i actually really like the layout and i kind of enjoyed the the rules i know people were sort of saying that you know there were dead ends and you had to grind to get back into modes and all that kind of stuff. The biggest problem was when you're on top of the world, everything is happening, you're feeling good, you're nailing your shots, and then the ball jumps over the out lane, it's absolutely soul-destroying and can just turn such a joyous experience into just despair. That's the problem with it. I can hear you. Like, you get that 6X, and it's like, okay, 6X multiball, I'm good. Everything's good. I got my add-a-ball working. Okay, I added my ball. Okay, everything's good. And then everybody out of the pool, and then we're done. Over the rails. Oh, the Scolari brothers. You assholes. The Scolari brothers. Oh, it hurts. They hurt. You try to backhand them, too. Doesn't matter. No. Oh, try to backhand. Just catch the edge of the target. Nope. Doesn't matter. No. The worst I've had is when you do manage to just absolutely nail the shot, whether it's backhand or forehand, and it's dangerous anyway, but it rebounds off the target, which bricks like a belly brick. The target actually doesn't go down, and it drains the ball. That's it with a big fuck you to you as a player. Wow, that is extra insult right there. Oh, my goodness. But, I mean, you know, I got to give it credit. 6x looping supers, that's a good feeling right there. 6x. I don't care how much it works. I don't care if it's worth, you know, nothing. You know, those looping supers, and you get that 13, 14, 15, 16, and that's spelling out the super jackpot. Spell it out. Spell it out over and over. Yeah, that first super jackpot worth $1 million. $1 million. Real super. Real super. Still super. It's still super, though. Yeah, but when that's 6X, and you're shooting them, and I'm just trying to keep shooting because I don't want to know how much it's worth. Just keep counting. Keep counting. I don't want to know. I don't want to know yet. I don't know if it's worth $5 million. I don't care. And then when you look up, $43. Okay, yes. So $43 times like $20 was $800 million. Yes, I did great. What are some other games that people are listing as overrated, Marty? So the one that actually has so far been nominated the most has been Jersey Jack's Pirates of the Caribbean as being overrated. Wow. Really? Well, it's high up on the list. So that's got a target on it right there, right? That's a great game. I mean, okay, the modes are similar, right? But still, everything else, when you really get that game moving, you are in heaven, really. You're just shooting things and start the party. I mean, when I play that, I know I don't play Pirates correctly. I mean, I'm just trying to start a multiball and then use that to start other multiballs. I would say if you're playing it your way, you're playing it correctly, Stephen. Okay. That's what I'm doing. I was trying to start the party and then use that party to start another party and then use that one to start another one. And then eventually you have all of them and all the multiple colors and all the banners are down and everything's there and supers are happening and I don't care. And animals and whatever and gold And yes OK good And I look up and see what I have I don even know what happened I haven played it a lot but I love every time I play it And I think if I were to own that game, there would be a lot to do. Definitely a deep game. It's a Kiefer game. So you must appreciate that from a rule standpoint. Oh, yeah. I appreciate that the deepness is there. And I also appreciate it that I don't have to care. you know like i just walk up and say i'm just gonna start all the six multi balls at once because whatever and it's fine and i'm gonna look up and see what i have and i don't even know 800 000 okay cool 1.2 million whatever i don't okay good do it again yeah i think for me the the overrated status that it would get is probably because production was pretty much stopped short of probably the units that they could have sold and therefore people just revere this game. And I reckon the five people that have nominated so far are pretty much saying, can you just shut up about this game? It's not that great. It's not worth the money it's going for. And everyone else is like, well it really is that good. Sounds like it's time for a re-release. Well, it would be no brains. Pirates Black Edition I don't know what you call it. Black Flag Edition. Yeah. Yeah, the Black Flag Edition. There you go. Something. Let's go. Last one we've got. Let's pick. Well, it's probably the next on this is Skate Stiff. Okay, I can understand. I guess it's because of the fact that it's simple. Is that part of the reason why? I mean, it's fun as heck. I would have to guess that would be the first ever wizard mode I ever completed in an arcade. Maybe Attack from Mars, but I doubt it. Probably with Scared Stiff because, yeah, there's only really six modes there. And then if you get lucky with Scared Stiff, there you go. You're done. And then what do you do? Oh, I guess I got to do it again. Do it again. More. Do it more. But that Scared Stiff round is stressful. That heartbeat. That does. I mean, as long as the sound is on. If your sound's not up, then that's a shame. But, you know, when you're on that seven or eight level and you got to accept that kick out from the side scoop there, and you just hope it doesn't kick out down the middle or something crazy. Yeah, that's one where it's simple, but it's fun. I don't know. I guess overrated just because of that? It's not costing a lot, is it? Relatively, I have no idea. I think if Elvira is on it, all three of those titles are going for good coin in the resale value. And certainly, you know, there aren't a lot of the House of Horrors games available. They have a limited number. So that also drives up the price. I mean, great sound packages on all of them and maybe just not worth what you're getting as far as the price is concerned. So, again, overrated really is based, to me, on are you getting good value for the price, forgetting how limited they are, or is it too high up on Pinside 100? Okay. I mean, it seems like this is being dominated by overpriced and not overrated. So that's different. I mean, you could have like a 10 out of 10 game that just costs a lot. Steve, we're going to be doing an overpriced poll later on. Please don't blow our entire content here. We're doing everything we can with the pandemic. I'm sorry. Okay. Let me see if I can try and give this some more perspective for you, Stephen. So Scared Steve currently on Pinside is rated at 33. 34 is Whitewater. Which one's better? Whitewater. Whitewater. Hands down. Circus Voltaire is 35. Circus. I'd play. Yeah. Well, that's closer. but yeah, circus. Black Knight's sort of rage is 36. Damn, Black Knight, yeah. You've then got The Hobbit, Ghostbusters, Star Wars, Shadow. Shadow is where? Underrated, what? Yeah, that's underrated. So I think that's kind of it where we always reference Pinside and people sort of fire shots at us and say, you know, Pinside's bullshit, why we do that as kind of tongue-in-cheek, we use Pinside as a reference because the ratings there are crazy sometimes it's law yeah it's it's the law this dude these ratings are the only ones ever yeah all right steven we appreciate you on a saturday night uh spending time with us and i'm really thrilled that you're going to be announcing the date of the next game and that is we don't know yet i'm telling you you know you know check check your local streaming announcements maybe my site maybe not where all of a sudden it's just like a cold open that's what i'm hoping for i'm not seeing it's going to happen i'm just i'm hoping for a saturday night live cold open where it's like live from deep root auditorium it's food truck damn one two three four players here we go barry's off to the side we'll watch this play and here we go all right so i don't think that's probably gonna happen but because you gotta have that marketing stuff but you know i'm not one for marketing i just want to play so you know i'm looking forward to my standard edition raza whenever I get it. In fact, you and I talked. I said, it might be staying at your place for a little while until I can get down there. So if you don't mind a little babysitting. I don't mind. I can keep it in the box with the Game of Thrones. That's still in the box. That was going to be my last question because every time I speak to you or have you on a podcast, I always get a status update. Have you taken your Game of Thrones out of the box yet? Clearly the answer is no. The answer is, yeah, I'm scared what's in there now. It could be like the Ark of the Covenant when I open it in like Indiana Jones. It could melt. You could open it up and it's in Orbiter One. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's like, open up. Wait, what's this? This is not it. Are you not opening it because you plan on selling it? Is that why? No, I think I just haven't opened it because I just haven't. It's weird. I don't know. I'm not planning on selling it because I want it at Expo. So like, it's kind of, it's got that little bit of sentimental value. Clearly, if you really wanted to open it, you would have opened it by now. So clearly, there's just nothing that's really driving you to open it. Yeah, I guess it's the fact that I have the other games. So, like, yeah, I can just walk over and play The Shadow right now. Like, after this, I'm going to go play Judge Dredd. Which, you know, I'm sure I have quite a couple of the overrated games probably right now. I had Judge Dredd on my list last week. Judge Dredd, yep. Simple modes, whatever, you know. Got that bad impersonator, which was a bad decision for a mode, but it's an easy fix for that. Just don't lock everything else out. But still fun. Shadow, I'm surprised it was number 40. Wait, what? That's underrated. No, Shadow is a great game. No question about it. I think that was in our finals for most underrated, wasn't it? Yeah, it was actually. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So I think that's part of it is I can just go down and play it now, now that I have power again. Thank goodness. Bring it back. Bring it back to the start, right? Loop it around. Grateful to have power. Thank you. We actually started with Kim and Kanye. So if you could really come all the way around. We can loop it somehow to Kim and Kanye. Kim and Kanye probably had power throughout the, no, I don't know. He had a song called Power. There you go. There it is. Power. So much power. Kanye's only had power. Hey! Oh! Hey! Fun with bonus. We appreciate it. And, you know, we're dying to see what's next from Deep Root. And a lot of us are excited to get our first game and Raza and check out the pin bar. And congratulations on your reach around. All right. Thank you. I'm looking forward to receiving it so I can somehow get the pin bar to accept it. Maybe I'll put it on the pin bars. Ooh. Thanks for the reach around. Sacred Flipper Cards is what I'm hearing. Yep. Yep. Something like that. You know, maybe put up a grand champion that says reach around on it. I got plans when it comes to it. Marty, mail it to him right away, immediately. I'm right on to it. Stephen, thanks very much. All right. Thank you. There we have it. Steven Bowden, good friend of the show. But what did we learn, Jeff? Well, I was surprised when he was talking about things to do in San Antonio. He didn't even mention the Alamo, and that is, you know, certainly a number one place for tourists, although he did mention the Riverwalk, and that is actually number one on Trip Advisory. But the Alamo is significant because it was almost 40 years ago that the Alamo had a little bit of damage done to it. Do you even know what happened? I barely know what the Alamo is. I know to remember the Alamo. I just don't know what for. So I'm not going to be any help here. Well, as everybody knows, the Battle of the Alamo happened back in 1836. And there's no way I'm reading this off of Wikipedia. did but what happened 40 years ago was ozzy osbourne famously took a piss on it he used it as a urinal oh ozzy ozzy obviously had a little bit of maybe substance and alcohol problems so when they were in san antonio sharon actually hid all of his clothes so that he wouldn't go outside he said fuck that he put on sharon's clothes wore a dress went over to the alamo took a whiz on it I guess you could call it his crazy drain. Good old Ozzy. I mean, who knows? He probably didn't know what he was doing. He probably didn't remember doing it either, I would imagine. Poor Ozzy. And that was done before the Osbournes reality show. Oh, that would have made a great episode. I did love the Osbournes reality show. I may have bought a DVD set of one of their series. So funny you should mention that. It brings us up to our sponsor of the week. And it's very timely. We're trying to raise money for those in need during these difficult times. It's the Keeping Up With The Kardashians box set. Follow the sad tales of a family from Los Angeles that started out without cameras in their face 24-7. You are just so jealous that you cannot get a Bentley and you're trying to ruin my moment for me. Are you joking? So get away, you jealous psycho bitch. But thankfully, their luck would change as they learned to master social media, the e-network, sex tapes, airbrushing, and plastic surgery. But there's more. This box set is a love story. Many, in fact. And that's just Kim alone. You cannot date a girl with a sex tape. Sure, she was high on ecstasy when she eloped at 19 for her first marriage. We've all made that mistake. But when she and basketball player Chris Humphries tied the knot, you knew that it would be forever. If forever was 72 days. Then it was love at third sight when Kim and Kanye West married. How did Kanye win over Kim? Hi, this is Kim Kardashian. I have a fake butt. Maybe it was famous Kanye quotes like, My greatest pain in life is that I will never be able to see myself perform live. Or, I was never really good at anything except for the ability to learn. Enjoy the entire Kardashian family in all their glory. Kim, Khloe, Kourtney, Kate Plus 8, Catherine the Great, and more. Except no Rob. We know why you got banned on Instagram, you son of a bitch. So much entertainment. So much look at me. So much ask anyone and they'll agree. The Keeping Up With The Kardashians box set is a true winner. So Jeff, speaking of making a lot of money for doing very little, I've sort of been looking at the internet at the moment and seeing a lot of people making a lot of money. Why aren't we making a lot of money? We've talked about this before. You know, you look at Twitch and we see everyone that's following ASMR or DJs that are pressing play on a button, things like that. And what are we doing? hard-working, tons of writing, tons of research, getting the great interviews. For what? A handful of listeners? I think we need to do a new segment here, and it's quite simply called, What the Hell Are We Doing Wrong? And our inspiration came from the image we created where we had the Dr. Phil episode where the Catch Me Outside girl was there. Her name is Danielle Bregoli, and she was, I don't know, 13 at the time, and destined for, I don't know, a life of failure. But no, somehow she is making millions. So when you sent me the image for the episode, Marty does all the images. He does a great job with these. I have no idea. It's almost like unwrapping a gift every episode. I never know what Marty's going to do, but I know it's going to be great. And I obviously got the Dr. Phil reference because Zach does the impression. And you said, do you know who they are? I'm like, no. And he said, oh, it's like a massive guest. And as soon as we posted it, I guess I'm the only one who didn't know who that girl was because everyone was like, catch me outside. How about that? I'm like, what? And she is now worth $4 million, apparently. She has made several appearances, rapping videos and all kinds of other things. And she's only 17 years old right now. And how this all came about was when you posted that and then I saw the actual Dr. Phil episode of her on there. I'm like, oh, I don't know if we should be making fun of her. She's probably dead now or something like that. And you're like, no. She's a millionaire. Yeah. You did actually say that to me. And I'm like, look it up, please. Listen, I like making jokes, but I don't like making fun of, you know, certainly the deceased by any means. And she's not dead. So fair game. Tee it up. But we can't make fun of her because she's making millions. Yeah. She is doing well. Also known as Bad Baby is her recording name. spelt b-h-a-d b-h-a-b-i-e bad baby there you go the next theme for a pinball machine i'm telling you right now so what is it that we can do obviously number one is we need to sell our soul and act like a cat on tv that's the first step are you gonna say that on do you want me to keep that in you can beep it if you want really want to keep it yeah but you can't call a girl a you can call a guy a c**t but you can't call a girl a c**t in australia you can i in australia you can i mean it's it's a greeting that you give like it's actually a compliment to call somebody a c**t in australia so there you go there's another bit of editing i'm giving you do you know what's my favorite word in the world because it just gets people's backs up for no stupid reason it's just a stupid word it is it is so there you go so obviously that's the step one what else can we do see when she was stealing cars and stuff she was 13 so she might have been put in a juvie but she wasn't going to go to prison that's grand theft auto for guys like you and me so i don't think we can do that i'm mostly too old to learn how to break into a car like i just don't if i can't open a freaking coin door in a pinball machine how am i going to be able to wire a car to be able to steal it. That's just not going to happen. So let's move that on. What else can we do? And by the way, if I recall an old episode of Head to Head, forget breaking into a car, you've had trouble backing up a car or two, if I recall. Yes, yes. And in fact, last night, I went back to the scene of the crime where my BMW was stuck into a ditch. But this time, I have somebody guiding me out every single time. So, okay. I don't know how we're going to make money. Listen, you talk about being too old. There's Nobody who will give a rat's ass to see us do how Kardashian got famous. We're not making sex tapes, so don't you worry about that. Mainly because it involves other people. I was going to say, technically, we will continue to. We just won't release them. Oh, all right. Well, that's funny you should say that because, listen, I don't have any grand ideas, but my lovely wife, Anne, has been home, I want to say, two or three days in the last three-plus weeks. uh-oh, what's happening? Are Anne and I breaking up now? No, we're fine. Unfortunately, Anne's mother is not doing well. She's going to be fine. Not a question. She's actually out of the hospital, so things are good. But she's been visiting her mom. And actually, I'm leaving after we're done recording this to go and visit Anne's mom. And that kind of brings us up to what we've been doing the last couple of weeks. I had a COVID test. Have you had one yet? No. I'd heard, though, originally it's really uncomfortable they stick something up your nose but then i heard that they've improved that it's not so bad which one did you get up the hole do you know why it didn't bother me do you know why it didn't affect me yes they they shoved a basically q-tip up my nose for 10 seconds rotated it i've been picking this honker for years right it's not like it's going to be a foreign object didn't even touch the sides stick seven up there before you Are we still talking about your nose? It's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. What? I fucking love that expression so much. Oh, it's in my sides. Sorry. No, so anyway, so I had the test. Everything came back negative. The sensation is just, it tickles. It really just tickles. Okay. So, big deal. We are still talking about your nose, aren't we? I forgot. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, cool. The things we do for COVID. Yep. So, and being away, this is my two weeks, and being away, I've tried cooking. Did you just say I've tried cocaine or you've tried cooking? What was it? Fuck it. Am I mumbling? Cooking. And no, I've never tried cocaine. Cool, cool. Cooking. Okay. When we recorded Steve, we took a little break, and I'm like, I haven't had supper yet. I should probably grab something to eat. Do I fire up the barbecue? No, it's cold outside. It's winter here. What's in the fridge? Oh, yeah. I have been eating out a lot lately, and I'm not going to. No, I can't do it right now. I've got to get back to recording. That'll do. I grabbed a shrimp ring. I grabbed a shrimp ring. What the fuck is a shrimp ring? Is that what we call calamari? It's battered squid? Even battered squid. Where is this podcast going? What is a shrimp ring? It's a ring full of shrimp. Right. It's literally what it says. So I had a few, and I'm like, yeah, there's no real flavor to it, because I don't use the dipping sauce. I'm like, okay, what am I going to do? I'm going to throw it in the oven for a few minutes, put a little garlic powder on it. But I forgot to take the shells off, which is not a smart thing to do. anyway shittiest dinner ever god i miss my wife and um it's too late for takeout oh that's that's kind of been my two weeks but okay so if never no one hears from you ever again we'll know that shrimp ring was not good for you no i took it out last night thinking i'm gonna maybe eat that for lunch or something which is stupid it's for guests but anyway i haven't had guests in a year so it's been frozen in a freezer for a while i'm an idiot anyway i need to forget the Kardashians box. I don't need a cookbook. That's what I need. So I am googling shrimp rings. Fortunately, it is of the seafood variety is what's coming up. I don't know whether we really have an equivalent. I mean, obviously, we don't eat shrimp. We eat prawns. Prawns, like that whole shrimp on the barbie is absolute bullshit. First of all, it would be prawns on the barbie. And second of all, nobody puts prawns on the barbie in Australia. So that was just absolute bullshit when it came out. I would imagine there's a few things that were not true. I mean, I've seen your knife collection, I'll give you that, but... That is true. People think that there's koalas and kangaroos everywhere. There isn't. That is not a thing. Everyone thinks that we drink Fosters. There is not an Australian that would ever touch a Fosters. I wonder if that's like in Mexico, if people drink Dos Equis. They drink what? Dos Equis, the triple X thing. I don't know what that is. It's a beer. Okay, sure. So is that like going to Mexico and people there don't drink tequila? No, I definitely think they drink tequila, but I don't know. I've never been to Mexico, actually. So I have no idea. But it's funny. You know, Steve didn't go to the Alamo. He's in San Antonio. You don't drink Fosters in Australia. Do you know what? I can't remember the last time I had maple syrup. I'm Canadian. Do you know what? I can remember the last time I had maple syrup. So I had it a week ago. I had yogurt with walnuts and maple syrup that you gave me, and it was amazing. I've got to tell you. There you go. All right. A little Canadian cuisine for you. Very, very nice. The only decent thing to come out of Canada right there. That's it? No. So what are the other cliches that people say about Canadians that just isn't true? Hmm. I don't think I say a boot. Yes, you do. I don't say a boot. I'll give you what I say. I always get in shit for saying these are our things when people say these are our things. The Americans say our. I say our. Yeah, okay. But I don't say a boot. Yes, you do. Come on. Okay, everybody write in, please. PhotoWare and Pinball at gmail.com. Does Jeff say a boot? And the reason why I know you do, whenever you do your impressions, it's when you say a boot that's the giveaway that I know it's you. See, I thought it was the word our. No, because we say our. The same as you, so I wouldn't notice that it's been different. Damn it. You're killing my voice work. Sylvester Stallone, that was when I knew it was you. I just have to write scripts where I don't say the word about or our. Actually, the Kermit the Frog blend you shit all over me for that too, didn't you? Yeah, yeah. I could tell. Not at first. When it first started, I went, but also you kind of said that you were doing it. But when it first started, I went, oh, my God, this is so authentic. And then there were just a couple of Jeffisms, and I went, okay, I can pick it now. Do you know how I trick you to make you think it's like Kermit the Frog? I play the authentic banjo of, you know, where there are so many songs about rainbows. Okay, let's get back to pinball. I got a new pinball machine. Oh, my God, you do, too. Your Led Zeppelin limited edition has arrived. Ta-da. Number 274. And is it what I expected it to be in that it is just an absolute blast to play? I have definitely played the shit out of it. I am enjoying it a lot. I'm watching a lot of streams. Raymond Davidson streams his. Chuck Webster streams his. I've seen Tom Graff from Fox City Pinball, a member of the Pinball Network. He does it as well. I'm enjoying the rules big time. Some of the shots are very, very difficult. Well, that upper flipper shot to the ramp is extremely hard. Okay. I would guess, if I'm good, one out of 15 times. Okay. I just haven't found it yet. Okay. But it's a very fast game. I would say it's fast like Star Trek. If you're comparing Steve Ritchie games, it's fast like an ACDC Pro, maybe even a little faster. It's not as fast as Black Knight sort of rage, because think of where the big toy is. It's so in the middle of your play field. I mean, you have very little time to react. Think of how quickly the Magna save, how many times you miss that because it just fires out the right out lane. So it's fast, and I like that. I mean, it really sharpens your skills, and you notice it when you play another game that's not a Steve Ritchie game. You're like, oh, okay, things have slowed down a little bit, but it's fun. The music's great. The thing I was super surprised about... Oh, shit, I said a boat, didn't I? Mm-hmm. The thing I was really surprised about was... Is that really you trying to be Australian Is that what it is No I just try not to say a boot Anyway I love the sounds Like when you rip the spinners all the different sounds on there are so so good And it's my first game with one of those, I guess you had it on Jurassic Park where you escape from Nublar. A lot of these instant wizard modes. So it's the top of the charts. God, is that fun. So what is it? Which mode is it? Top of the charts. You have to get, basically, there are 10 songs on Led Zeppelin. You have to get 10 platinum sales on each song and do it as quickly as possible. So it basically starts off as a multiball. You've got a ton of balls coming out, and all the shots are lit. There's one red shot that's worth double. If you hit the scoops, it's worth double, so you can complete the song quicker. And you're just trying to do it as quickly as you can, if you can do it. That's a lot, 10 songs. My best time is just under seven minutes. and I've tried it several times. I think Nine Minutes is my next. It's difficult, but boy, it's fun. Overall, you think it's great? For me, I'm biased. Obviously, I love the band. I really enjoy it. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun. The reaction I've seen from a lot of people playing it and friends and others that I know have owned it have said I liked it more than I thought I would. That's a good sign. Yeah, that on paper and in photos, because we all reacted to the art. That was sort of a bit of a letdown, but good gameplay is good gameplay. Yeah, I'm really happy with, again, the code and the software from Tim Saxton, from Raymond Davidson, the entire group at Stern Pinball. It just makes it so much fun and it's only getting better. It's not even full code yet, 0.95. So let me ask you a question then, because where I sort of went a little bit iffy on Steve, who historically has been my favorite designer was Star Wars, where I actually really like the layout of Star Wars. Don't care about the art. You know, if people want to argue that, that's fine. But I really like the layout and I like the way it shoots. But I felt the code was a very stop-start, very strategic code instead of it being really dialed into a fast flow game. Has this got flow rules? Is that what Tim's done? Boy, definitely. I'm trying to think when I stop at all on the game. There is no stop. The only time you stop, I guess, is on the premium and the LE when the electric magic unit comes up. And that's kind of an interesting thing, too, because as you're trying to progress in songs, and the first kind of mini wizard mode is Mothership Multiball. So you want to kind of... Their best album, yep. Their best of album. You want to get five songs up to 500,000 in sales, which is five records so to speak on the on the screen when you do that then it's ready for mothership multiball which i would compare to kind of like a cherry bomb multiball you know you're but in cherry bomb you have to complete the four modes this you only have to get five of those uh records as opposed to the 10 platinum and i guess there's some big bonus for getting 10 platinum too not even close to doing that it's just so much fun there's the song selections The thing I didn't know until I played it, and even Tim Sexton mentioned it to me on Pinball Profile, but I had to listen back to the show to kind of understand the rules. During the songs, different things will happen. For example, if you're playing the song Communication Breakdown and the middle guitar riff goes, there's a certain shot that's very repeatable that is always lit. Okay, great. That's big points when you go middle ramp, middle ramp, middle ramp, left flipper ramp all day, and that gets you a lot of sales. I assume that's a good strategy, but you have to listen to the songs to see where the shots are. It's really bizarre, but it's fun. So that's what I heard when he was on your show. He was talking about, let's say the song goes for four minutes, but certain sections and certain shots are only available when that part of the song happens. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, absolutely. And I was asking Raymond Davidson because, heaven forbid, I would actually read something like rules on a game I just purchased. I just went on Facebook. Hey, Raymond, what do I do here? He's like, I wrote a whole rule thing out on SternPinball.com. I'm like, yeah, yeah, fuck, I'm sure it's great. Anyway, he gave me a few answers, but I thought I should actually read this. I think it's 10 pages, and it's not 10 long pages. It's like huge font, so it's really like a page read. It's great to read that because it really is laid out there how everything works, how the multiballs work, how the songs work, the records. God, it's fun. It's the newest game I have, obviously, but it's just different than everything else I have, which I really appreciate. Okay. So that's me. What about you, Marty? What have you been doing in the last fortnight? Well, let me tell you the highlight I would say is just off the back of last night, I went to Dave Hashman and Danger Ray's place and played Guns N' Roses. That's the second time. So this is the second time I've streamed it, second time I've played it. And here's my thoughts. When I first played it, I was just blown away by the presentation, the light show the integration just that massive wow factor this time i actually really started enjoying the layout and the rules and it made a lot more sense and funnily enough before i went there i actually read the rules because we've got a bit of a competition going on because one thing i didn't know is that guns and roses comes with score but integrated yeah i didn't know that well I do now because my other friend, you know, Oz Eric that streams on my channel, he and Dave and Axel, they're all part of this group where they're competing with each other and they're comparing scores. And you can look at and you can see who's coming first. And I'm now obviously first. But it was just I was wanting to be competitive. So I read the rules and it just made so much more sense. Like, you know, people saying those multiballs just happen for no reason. Well, I now know why they happen, and I now know how to get more points rather than just shooting the flashing shots. It's just the ant multiball that starts up right away, isn't it, with the inlanes? There's a couple. There's one that when you get up the – this is on the LE. When you get up to the top play field, there's one that starts there as well. But here's what – an interesting thing happened. So I was having this great game and I had just got into an encore and the game stopped. It just kept showing the... Yeah, just the encore video just kept playing over and over and over. Couldn't flip, couldn't hit the action button, couldn't tilt it, couldn't do anything to get out of it. We ended up turning the machine off and on. And then I reckon maybe three or four minutes later, Eric Meunier arrives in chat. Wow. And we're like, oh, my God, Eric, what are you doing here? And he said, oh, I heard that you had this and I'm here. We're just like, what the fuck? The designer of this machine is now in the chat talking to us, trying to get information about what happened. I then sent him a video link of what had happened. He's already replied back to me. but he stayed for a while and just chatted to everybody in chat about the machine, about the design, and it was just such a highlight to have such a great guy talking about his machine, but also getting feedback from us and our experiences on the game. So that was a big highlight. There you go. Well, Eric, you've got another winner here. I pay no attention to what was said earlier about Pirates of the Caribbean. I think it's a great game. Actually, so did Steven Bowden. Those are our listeners. Damn listeners. Anyway, Guns N' Roses, I think it's spectacular. I can see that being in my collection one day. Yeah, if I didn't really... I couldn't even say I really dislike the band. I'm not a fan of their music, but I really respect their music. And also, because I know that you can select songs, but if you just keep the song that is automatically selected for you, it's worth more points, meaning the jackpot values are higher. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you manually select a song, the initial value is lower. So I then just played whatever default song was playing, and I heard so many Guns N' Roses songs that I'd never heard before, and I was kind of impressed. So there you go. I've seen the band eight times, so none of the songs are new to me, and they are really, really good live for the most part, especially with Duff and Slash being back in the band. And that's one of the things I love about that game. The game itself is great. I'm trying to picture would I love it as much if it was another band that it was so, so on. I'm sure some songs would drag on me, but the gameplay. If we're just talking about the gameplay, man, it's fun. Yep. I've played so many games that I love where I could care less about the theme, maybe the music, certainly the artwork. That is the most important thing to me is the gameplay, and Guns N' Roses has it. Yep, without a doubt. and I was just, as I said, when I first played it, I was like, oh, you know what, the layout's kind of there. It does what it needs to do. But I really started enjoying the layout and this is what I actually said to Eric. I said, what really surprised me is something as simple as the Richard Pick, apparently Richard Fortas is a band member now. I don't know. Sure. The joke I made was, you've got cool names. Axl, Duff, Slash, Richard. you know anyway but that shot that spinner that's just left of the scoop feels so good when you rip that really really good anyway it is a great game i absolutely loved it i haven't heard one person say anything different no exactly it is fantastic let me tell you the other exciting news that's happened in my last fortnight this is going to be more so for anybody that's outside of australia What's happened is our government has decided that they are going to charge Google and Facebook for linking news. Okay. And what that's meant is that Google said, okay, we're going to pay for it. Here you go. Here's your money. Facebook have said, fuck you. We are now going to ban or we're going to take any news is now no longer on Facebook at all. That sounds like a good thing. I've got to tell you, Jeff, right here, right now, Facebook is so much better without news. Because what you see with news, really, it's very hard to find a balanced news outlet. They're either left, they're either right, and you see comments and it just inflames, just horrible discussions. So now my news is whether somebody has got a new cat or whether somebody has gone to the groceries and bought something or it's back to pictures of the meals that they've had. And it's just so much more enjoyable having Facebook without news. news you've lost the old if it bleeds it leads kind of thing and that's now not on there but facebook has been so bloody divisive and you know how dare if you like that person then unfriend me or all that kind of bullshit and you've got none of it now i've got none of it trips cats no food and pinball pinball pinball now is my news like most of my feed now is about pimble so i'm just really happy there is a downside to it and that is when facebook actually did their right there's no news they also banned some things like emergency services so the bureau of meteorology that does all the Carl Weathers and Carl Weathers alerts that was banned they've since taken that back but this is what's a weird thing is that right now so i think anything that that classifies itself as news is now taken off. Here's an interesting thing, though. If I go to Stern Pinball's Facebook page, it's empty. Really? Meaning, no, it's there, and I can see that it's got 500,000 plus followers or likes, whatever it is, but it says no new posts. I cannot see anything that they've posted. There's tons. There's obviously the Led Zeppelin stuff. There was... Yep. I get nothing. Okay, there's a Baltimore Sun article. You wouldn't see that because it's a link. That makes sense. What else do they got on here? Toronto Collective Web. Yeah, that's a link as well. Wow, you got nothing. Absolutely nothing. It says no new posts. I cannot see any historical posts that Stern's made. What's interesting, though, is if I go to Jersey Jack Pinball, I can see all of theirs. And they both classify themselves as the same. So it's just weird that they blocked one and not the other. I first knew of this when it came to gaming websites as a good friend of mine, Alex Boz, who runs Oz Retro Gamer, his is also blocked in Facebook as well. So that's kind of strange. So as I said, but the overall is, I mean, I can still go to Oz Retro Gamer's website. I can still go to sternpinball.com. I can still go to Instagram and Twitter and all that kind of stuff. I just can't do it via Facebook. But the summary of it is, my Facebook world is so much better without bullshit news. That's interesting because Steven Bowden posts on funwithabonus.com first. Then it gets kind of linked and reposted on either his group or his page on Facebook. Now, would that be considered a news link that wouldn't show up? No, I can see funwithabonus on Facebook. Okay. All of it. It's selective. I guess it's based on the setting of the group. Yeah. Some algorithm that they're doing is blocking this stuff. So it must be the way that they're presenting information, I guess. I don't know, but it's weird. Let's try a test real quick here. Okay. Go to Pinball Profile on Facebook. How do you spell that? Fuck you. Pinball Profile. Okay, here we go. Are you seeing the posts? Yes. Okay. That's all I cared about. Australia is a big part of my thing. I've had some success there. I can't talk about it. You cannot talk about it. You can't even hint about it. No, that's a first strike. No, that's a first strike. That's not a strike. I said nothing. I've had success there because I went and visited Perth. I went to Sydney. I went to whatever the hell you were living, Melbourne. So there you go. I said nothing. The reason why I worked out that I couldn't see Stern Pinball is I saw an image that was posted of a jigsaw puzzle saying coming soon. Apparently, it was on Stern's Instagram. But I first went to Facebook because I thought that's where it would be. And that's when I saw that there was no post for me. But I still did get to see this image of a jigsaw puzzle saying, coming soon. And so then I'm like, oh, my God, they're going to be announcement. It's going to be imminent. I went to Pinside because I can still go there. And people are speculating on what it means. Well, we're late February. A lot of their announcements usually come on Tuesday. So we can be talking about something that has already happened. but we're speculating as we record here on Saturday night, Sunday in Australia. I think, and I don't know, and if I did know, I would just say I can't comment, but I don't know. I remember, I think it was Mike Vinikour who posted a picture of him doing a Buffalo Games puzzle, which happened to be once completed, the Stern Star Wars Translate, which I thought was great in the puzzle form. So is this more Stern Translates made into puzzles? because I'm all in if that's the case. Ryan Z, he's a puzzle guy too. I bet you that could be it because didn't George Gomez say he wanted to be all things pinball? Yeah. Maybe? Yeah, it could be. What do you think? I don't know. I would love it to be a reveal of a new machine because we all love new machines. But here's what Pinsider's saying. Based on the image, people are sort of really dissecting the colors and the shapes and what it means. And here are the six themes that people believe are about to be announced by Stern Pinball. Godzilla is the first one. Now, that kind of makes sense because we know that they got the license, so maybe Godzilla's coming out. Mortal Kombat, I think because of the colors. I would love a Mortal Kombat pinball machine. And you also get Steve Ritchie, who was one of the voices in Mortal Kombat. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the one that says, finish him. Yeah, so that's him. Van Halen. I personally would love to see a Van Halen pinball machine. So would I. Not right after Zeppelin. No, not obviously. Who knows? And again, how do you do it? Do you do David Lee Roth? Do you do Sammy Hagar? What do you do? Yeah, yeah. What about Gary Cherone? Yes. What about Gary Cherone? Yeah, exactly. Someone said The Incredibles. I think that's because there's red and there's yellow on the jigsaw. Harry Potter, people have said. And Queen was the last one. Again, I don't know whether they would do a band pin straight after a band pin. Who knows what's coming up? I'm excited to see, but I don't know. I have no idea. We don't expect anything from Jersey Jack in a while. American Pinball, I don't think Norbin's ready for his yet. Deep Root, we had Steven on. Didn't really reveal too much, although we know the titles. Stern, I guess there'll be three cornerstones this year, this calendar year, but is it already? I can't imagine. It's got to be March, right? Yeah, I thought it would be March as well. So I don't know. I really don't know. I don't want to speculate. Your jigsaw theory actually logically sounds about right. But by the time this is aired, I'm sure it will be revealed. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows indeed. Maybe it saw the pinball machine because it wasn't the bad guy's name, Jigsaw. Yes. People have also said that, but I didn't put that on my list because I just went, no, that's just too literal. Just try to be funny. I know. Okay. Well, we'll have to wait and see. By the way, as I'm looking at my Stern Pinball Facebook page, they don't have that. It was on Instagram, but I think it's also been taken off. Oh, yeah. I don't see it on their page at all. So, okay. What I do see on social media is a lot of people on Final Round Pinball Podcast, which you can find on Facebook. We're also on Instagram and Twitter. There are people giving us suggestions for the most overrated pinball machine. Correct. We have had 52 submissions so far. So coupled with my list, your list, and straight down the middle's list, I reckon we're going to do a top 32. What do you reckon? I think we can make it 64. We probably could. We can milk this fucker. We really can. And we should. But the weird thing is, how are we going to rank them in the bracket, whether it's 32, which is easy to do, or 64? How are we going to rank them? Is it based on pin side? Yeah. Okay. You've got to have a reference. And the reason why I say you've got to have a reference is because it's somebody else's reference. It's not you and me saying which we think is overrated and underrated. It saves us a lot of time as well. Again, the only caveat is that it cannot be a game that is currently in production. We do not want to hurt distributors and certainly the pinball companies with their sales of games. Some of them may be overrated. You'll just have to wait until they're not sold, and then we'll tell you what they are. Correct. But right now, we're just kind of limiting to the games that are no longer being manufactured. So just to note, Jeff, we actually have Rick and Morty on the list. What do we feel about that? Well, we did say currently games that aren't in production. Yes, it's sold out, but they are still producing the game. So I guess you would have to not include that. Yeah, that makes sense. Fair enough. Okay. We did get some interesting emails too. And we're at finalroundpinball at gmail.com. One is kind of based on what we were throwing out from last week, where we were talking about if you could make a dream pinball machine. It wasn't so much themes, but this email was really referencing the theme idea. and it came from Glenn Glenn Waechter. He said he loves skateboarding. He really wants a Bones Brigade machine. Members would include, you know, Ray Bones, Rodriguez, Steve Caballero, Tony Hawk, Tommy Guerrero, all kinds of legends too. He would love it if it was a Keith Elwin design with a punk rock soundtrack, Zombie Eddie on art, Dwight on code. Of course, Dwight and Keith would have to work together to create the rules. It would be cool if they could get radical and skateboard throwbacks in there somehow. Well, if you've got Keith Elwin on the design team, he loves a good throwback. So you would expect that that would happen. Yeah, for sure. So thanks, Glenn, for that. We did get another email, and this one is related to the overrated games. Came from John M. Thank you, John. First of all, he said, Led Zeppelin looks like a great flow shooter, my favorite type of pin, and my favorite rock pin to date for the actual music. His overrated list, they all fall in the top 100 on pin side. He says quickly, from 10 to 1, Tommy, Houdini, Roadshow, Hobbit, Game of Thrones, Safecracker, Fishtails. Wrong, John. Ghostbusters, Funhaus, and Addams Family. I've heard a few people say some of those games. Yeah, I think there's probably only three that are new. So that's good. We can add them to the list. It's funny that Fishtails, I have had two different people on Pinside ask me to sell my Fishtails. Maybe someday, but not right now. It's just fun, fun, fun. If I want a quick game, that's my kind of go-to game, and it can beat you up. I think my grand champion score, I did the game in 15 minutes, so I kind of like that about fishtails. But if I had one guy actually on pins, I'd say, I have a home-use only Metallica. I will trade you for your fishtails. Now, I'm kind of dumb for not accepting that. You are? Oh, my God. The reason I said no is, A, I really love my fishtails, and B, I can get a Metallica anywhere. Yeah, fair enough. It's harder to find a fishtails. So value-wise, Metallica's worth way more. No question about it. Yeah, I understand. I kind of am in the middle with fishtails. Loved it when it came out. Don't necessarily love it that much now, but I still have a lot of fun playing it for some reason. Do you know what it is? It's one of those games where it's just, you've got to have another go. You just missed out on that monster fish or you just missed out on getting whatever multiball. It just makes you want to play more. so I don't know how much they go for so I don't know whether it's a price overrated but certainly the game is a lot of fun so I don't know one of my favorite video modes ever and you don't say that often about pinball machines yep love love love that video mode it's great my buddy Randy Whiteford from the TCPL the Tri-Cities Pinball League he comes over to my house and we play a lot of loony throwdowns back when we could maybe once or twice when we couldn't And out of all my games, we play Fishtails probably 50% of the time. Because of what you said, you want to have another go at it. You're like, oh, if you miss the monster fish, you're like, oh, that's such a game breaker. But anyway, I think we're done for another episode. We've certainly done more than the pinball shows and fuck all this month. We have also another huge thank you to Steven Bowden coming on board. It is always fun talking to him. Yeah. My back sore from carrying this freaking network. That's it for another week. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm not. Thank you. And thank you to our sponsor, the Kardashians box set this week. Really appreciate all the money coming our way. Where can people reach us? They can reach us via Gmail at finalroundpinball at gmail.com. Instagram is finalroundpinballpodcast. Twitter is at finalroundpin. Facebook, if it's not banned in Australia, is finalroundpinball. Thanks for everybody for reaching out. We do appreciate it. And it's nice to hear from you. And we will do this again in another fortnight. I'm Jeff Teolis. I'm Martin Robbins. Thanks, everybody.